Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[pinturicchio]

Ok guys real talk: the setup is called "Sharing is Caring", but Mathdino is a dinosaur with really really short hands; how could he share if he can't give you a hand? And by the name of the setup, we can infer that Sharing = Caring, then, if Mathdino can't share, Mathdino doesn't care, quod erat demonstrandum.

Now, Mathdino not caring could mean a lot of things, but what if he doesn't care of people dying because he's scum? That's a possibility, we can't dismiss it.

VOTE: Mathdino

[pinturicchio]

(btw I meant short arms damnit I screwed up)

[pinturicchio]

I deserve it, I said hands instead of arms

[pinturicchio]

Mmmm I don't think that's a good idea, you give Mafia information on what PRs they should use... If we decide Vig shouldn't shoot, then the Mafia Doctor won't use his target either

[pinturicchio]

I think the best alternative would be vote who the vigged should be and then let the vig decide if he wants to shoot or nah; that way, if vig is shooting scum, either he (1) makes the Mafia lose one of their shots or (2) confirm someone as Mafia, since Mafia wouldn't protect a townplayer (I mean yes, they could to make some WIFOM shit, but that would be risky as fuck, like imagine they protect a PR or something)

[pinturicchio]

Nah maybe that's bad too, a PR would claim if he/she's getting shot so the scumteam would know who they could protect to create WIFOM shit

[pinturicchio]

Hello Duckling <3 will this finally be the game where I see your scumgame?

[pinturicchio]

ruru I think your townread on NSG was pretty good actually

[pinturicchio]

Is there ever an RVS wagon that ISN'T low info?

You should change your name to "Quite_Smart"

[pinturicchio]

No idea what I'm making of it yet


VOTE: Pintu

Mr Blue Sky!

Wait now that NSG quoted this I noticed I didn't reply you, hello!

Now I have that song stuck once more

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos I thought you were being a tryhard, but I think we have diametrically opposed early playstyles and that's it. I fluff a lot early game and when I saw you were trying to get out of RVS so early pinged me a lot, but you've been consistent so that must be a playstyle preference that I don't share.

My townreads are better than my scumreads, especially this early. I tend to exaggerate my scumreads, like really dramatic and tinfoily scumreads, but my townreads are good. ruru and NSG are town, I'm trying to sort the rest of the players I've played with before (including the two gals, Mathdino, HWS, ofrhz, the worst and jjh. Maybe HitAlt? I don't know who he is)

[pinturicchio]

Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum

[pinturicchio]

Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum

So, her case, as I understand it, is currently predicated on the notion that JJH is white-knighting me.

The last we heard from ofrhz was this:

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

why zoronos?

Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?

Nah ofrhz seems to be just asking, like "hey I don't get that, could you explain?", jjh went further. But you're reducing NSG case only to the white knighting thing and there's more, specifically the inconsistency about RVS; that part is what I most liked.

[pinturicchio]

I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:

Spoiler: thoughts

Her case had basically four points spread between 104 and 105

I had trouble following / agreeing with her 105. She calls out JJH's 41 (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in 37. I specifically commented on her vote in 44 with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?
Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in 21. If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.

So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.

If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?

I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

[pinturicchio]

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

Fuck I said Maria when I meant NSG and those are entirely different players. I have no idea why I wrote that. Previous game playerlist sitting in my head still I guess.

So, what part of JJH's posts were inconsistent? Do you think that both he and NSG were RVS voting, which leads to an inconsistency with his earlier statement on dislike of RVS? Help me see your understanding of the evidence.

This response is a bit short because I'm working on responding in greater depth to NSG's question to me above: Short version - I don't think it matters at all that NSG ignored the RVS votes. I think it's entirely NAI. That's why I didn't bother asking about it, I don't think there's value to be gleaned.

However, I want your interpretation of JJH's question about NSG's wagon. Do *you* think JJH was trying to redirect heat off himself with that question, or was innocently pondering a thread event? Because if the former, that's a good point of evidence in NSG's case on him. If the later, it's not.

Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.

[pinturicchio]

@Dino I know you don't like gutreads or at least is the worst type of reads from your perspective along with cold meta, but I played a long ass game being her scumpartner and until I see another game where she's scum, I will say I have an ability to read her towngames with a probability of 100%

[pinturicchio]

Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum

By “on point,” do you mean accurate (I.e. jjh is scummy) or the case is towny but not necesssarily accurate? Or both

Both. NSG is town calling scummy things that I too believe were scummy. Too early to know if scummy = scum.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: Zoronos
Convenient, you're the person before me in the list and in the thread.

By the way, does anybody knows this guy?

[pinturicchio]

yes, he has more age / experience / education than all of the rest of us combined

Wow he must be pretty old if he's older than a dinosaur

[pinturicchio]

Lol that makes sense, I think I got a little late to this site to know what Team Mafia was, I still don't know much about that.

So for real, tell me about dave? Is he lurking, active lurking, is this normal/abnormal coming from him, should we worry or is too early to know?

I think I've read him in another game but can't recall, but have a feeling that he's a strong player and a replacement this early is no fun. I mean, replacements are not fun in general, but dave has no content whatsoever so it would be like starting the game 2 days later

[pinturicchio]

he is a very amusing player

this seems relatively normal

always check posting history onsite before you call someone on lurking imo

he will definitely not replace out

Yeah that's why I'm asking and not calling him out

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment

I know but you indicated you agreed with NSG's case on him / that was scummy.
Simply put, from my chair if you think JJH is scummy for buddying, you should be wondering about / investigating Orhz and SS as well. Maybe you came to different conclusions on them for ~reasons~, but I'd expect them to get at least some cursory investigation.

But I'd be remiss if I jumped to the end instead of picking up our discussion where we stopped.

Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.

So, bottom line it for me:
1) do you think JJH is scummy?
2) do you think NSG's case is a) towny, and correct b) towny but ???? accuracy c) towny but wrong
I'm presuming since you already expressed a town read on her that we can skip over it being NAI or scummy.

1) Yes, jjh is scummy, and I'm figuring out if, for him, being scummy = scum. There are scummy players by nature, there are players who play scummy to avoid being night killed, there are... you get my point.
2) ofrhz asked me practically the same a few posts ago and I replied. NSG's case is townie and correct if by 'correct' you mean "she's right about jjh being scummy", not "she's right and jjh is probably scum". I'm trying to sort jjh myself and NSG's case on him is a good start.

One more thing: you are again assuming that I should think that ofrhz' question was loaded, and I don't think that; I know ofrhz, he's much more straight forward. Even if I didn't know him, I would still think that question wasn't loaded. About Something_Smart, that's new, do you feel buddied by him?

[pinturicchio]

1) I understand.
2) Sorry, must have missed that, didn't mean to ask a redundant question. And yes, that's exactly what I mean by correct. I've seen plenty of cases where I looked at them and went "I don't agree with your read at all, but I think what you wrote came from town.' I realize there's some air gap between 'He's def scum' and 'He's doing scummy things', but what I was interested in was whether or not you found his underlying posting scummy for the reasons stated in the case. And it sounds like that's 'qualified-yes'.

3) I think / thought ofhrz's question had intent behind it (even if he's disclaiming it), so I figured others would reasonably wonder it as well. Certainly so if they were thinking about buddying behaviors.

I don't feel buddied by him; he's been much more passive in his town read on me, but he did respond to a vote / scumread on me (I forget which, it was a while ago) by stating he townread me. He's in the pool of 'people that defended Zor' though, hence why I raised his name here.

3) Well to be fair I don't know how scum!ofrhz plays so there could be buddying behaviors, but if that was the case, I would expect him to buddy players he already know, like ruru, Math, NSG or me, four players who he has played two other games where he was town. But I get your point.

I asked you about SS 'cause he's under my radar at this moment. Yes, we agreed on RVS low info, but I don't recall anything else coming from him.

[pinturicchio]

@Other Open 721-ers

Thoughts on ofhrz here as compared to last game? Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i remember in both of the games i've played with him people just considered him obviously town – obviously town to the point where i don't think i've ever really expended that much effort trying to read him, i just wrote him off as town.

Is the fact that i can't really write him off as town yet meaningful?

Elli-tell still seems valid here as well. He really hasn't been much of a presence so far – i should go back and check open 721 and 1859's early game postcount there to compare. (this is something math might want to do / have done already as well)

ofrhz was mislynched on D1 in that game. I see no difference so far

[pinturicchio]

Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that

I personally think this was a damning thing so let's discuss. What does town jjh get from redirecting this off of himself now? I do feel he had a small bit of pressure after somewhat of a flaming start. As if he didn't want attraction to divert from him as much as from his content... Do you see what I'm saying or am I seeing this wrong? Also I'd find this more excusable if it were an actual wagon but it's RVS

HWS I think the same thing you're asking is answered in the same post you're quoting. If you react badly at pressure either as town or scum, then you don't want to be pressured 'cause either you're being mislynched or caught, that's like... The definition of NAI. But I said the same thing that you're saying: I don't think he was redirecting anything 'cause there was no "anything" in the first place

[pinturicchio]

I feel like I should dump my thoughts from my discussion with Pintu, but they’re still a bit jumbly. So, bear with me.

I think Pintu is seeing the evidence completely differently than I am. At first I wanted to call that scummy, but if I had one word to describe our discussion, that word would be “reasonable”. He never got incensed or frustrated, or called me scummy for leaning on him, he just calmly explained his position and why he disagreed with me.
I don’t really like his predicates, but he was very insist on their validity, and he took those predicates to a reasonable place. I can see how he got from A to B, even if I disagree with A. He didn’t bow or give an inch in his discussion, while remaining willing to engage it.

My gut says that’s towny but I struggle to clearly explain why or specifically what parts of our discussion made me feel towny on him. Maybe that he’s playing highly cooperatively?

Sorry for the mess, but that’s where I ended up. I wish I could have ended up at a ‘yeah, got the scum!, but that would be stretching for a conclusion I wanted instead of the conclusion I think the evidence points towards. I think my initial scum lean was wrong.

Zoronos I think me being cooperative with you started because I am townreading you (you remember my first towngame in this place), and even if we got different conclusions, I now got a townread on you, and that's good. What I don't get is why were you scumleaning/reading me in the first place; you started asking me questions before seeing that our conclusions were different, so what was first, the duckling or the egg?

[pinturicchio]

@NSG you're pretty talkative in this game compared to all the other games I've played with you. Wanna jam?

[pinturicchio]

I mean let's talk. You usually don't talk too much, you just give your reads, but here you're talking, and I want to talk with you 'cause you have good early reads.

[pinturicchio]

@NSG you're pretty talkative in this game compared to all the other games I've played with you. Wanna jam?

i'm not exactly sure what that implies, but i think i'm probably okay with it.

Interested in if your jjh read progressed and in a Mathdino read

[pinturicchio]

Zoronos I think me being cooperative with you started because I am townreading you (you remember my first towngame in this place), and even if we got different conclusions, I now got a townread on you, and that's good. What I don't get is why were you scumleaning/reading me in the first place; you started asking me questions before seeing that our conclusions were different, so what was first, the duckling or the egg?

Did I not explain that? I thought I explained that.
You launched into PR-talk / setup discussion before giving out reads, and your volume-of-posting early was focused there initially instead of the other posters. Basically it was the first place you enthusiastically engaged the thread (short posts vs long posts). Same for MathDino. I recall the_worst and HitAlt said something like it's not out of character for you and Mathdino, so I figured I'd lean in slowly rather than going full bore.

Contrast ruru who started the setup discussion but was simultaneously giving reads.
I could have sworn I explained this. If I didn't my apologies.

Yeah yeah you explained, but I wanted to know if you were aware that Mathdino did the same and you engaged only with me. I see you are aware; why did you decide to push me and not Mathdino?

[pinturicchio]

I talked about that here:142 + 143. I realize that's a couple days and 10 pages ago.

I'm not sold on MD's towniness yet; none of his reads so far have been out in front of thread consensus. He's been going with the flow as far as I can tell. Which is a bit of a reversal of the position I had coming out of 142+143.

Yes I was talking about 143 precisely, I get that you thought pushing me over Math was more worthy, but why not both? Let me rephrase that: instead of interacting only with me, why not interacting with both? I think we would have a better read on Mathdino if you would've proceded in that way too

[pinturicchio]

@NSG playstyle effectiveness varies from game to game, absolutely. I'm playing absolutely different of what I usually do 'cause Zoronos started pretty serious and I had no time to be fluffy, maybe with time I'll get my chance to meme.

Here's a tricky question for you: Mathdino claims to be pretty good at reading you, which implies that he have read a lot of games where you've been and that he has played a lot of games with you too. Do you feel the same way? How good are you at reading Mathdino?

[pinturicchio]

Oooooh shit sorry you were not pushing him on purpose, that makes perfect sense

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos if you excuse me, I'll start reading that and other things in the thread now, since I think I've dedicated almost all my time interacting with you I'll let you know if I see something at the duckling's wagon, but I'm not good at reading the duck... I think I have a null read in almost all our games and he has always been town in those.

@NSG yeah same problem, I've only seen town!Dino and the one time I thought I caught him he was an innocent child, great job me! But there's a Newbie Game that finished not long ago where Dino was scum and lost in LyLo; I only read the LyLo posts, but now that is over I will read the entire game. I mean, I don't know if I'll get something since he claims he shouldn't be metaread, but meh

[pinturicchio]

tbh I think I'm being dumb with ofrhz. tonally she seems similar to our last game, but there's something awkward there.

also wagon motivation checks out

This feels like distancing and bussing at the same time

[pinturicchio]

Why do you townread him for that?

Because they're not concerned in the slightest about being voted to the point of being flippant about it, and they are actually trying to turn it around into something positive.

It's an argument that probably wouldn't occur to most people as scum.

playing devil's advocate here, I actually arrived at a net townlean on ofrhz as well
but I kinda feel like it's totally instinctual for scum to reactively townread people who suspect them? like say ruru is town and ofrhz is scum technically ruru would be correct...?

First you have a townlean on him.

that like.
ofrhz' posting doesn't seem AI
why exactly are people scumreading them

sorry if I wasn't explicit enough? I thought it was pretty clear

You say ofrhz posting is NAI and ask why people is scumreading him.

how confident are you in scum!ofrhz? I'm starting to feel like I might be being stupid.

Less than 40 posts later you say you feel you're being stupid about ofrhz.

HitAlt is pretty null for me. he doesn't really ~feel~ scummy but I'm also having some issues parsing the trajectory and reasoning behind his reads.

GTH ofrhz seems similar to open 721 here. in reality I should go reread some.

But then you say ofrhz seems similar to 721 where he was town mislynched on D1

VOTE: ofrhz
good thinkin tho!

And after aknowlegding that, you vote for him. Seems like you were trying to deviate attention from ofrhz, but when you saw that the wagon was starting to form firmly, you voted for him when confronted to do so.

[pinturicchio]

I'm not sure how you went from disagreeing with people scumreading ofhrz, to being unsure, to agreeing with them, when the reasoning never actually changed

I'm not sure how you went from disagreeing with people scumreading ofhrz, to being unsure, to agreeing with them, when the reasoning never actually changed

that's a good point

was being dumb with my initial read imo
I talked myself out of the stuff I was liking from ofrhz for being AI

Why are you guys talking about this now when I made this exact same point a few days ago? @Duckling I think you never answered that, I'm catching up right now but skimmed a little bit and didn't see anything; Here's the post I'm talking about.

Also sorry for not being here, this was my last tests' week, infamous week with 4 tests in a row; we have 2 each semester, and this is my last college semester so yay. That, with a friend's father passing away on Friday made a really busy weekend. I'll try to catch up now.

[pinturicchio]

Sharing is Caring D1 VC #10

ofrhz (3): northsidegal, BlackStar, the worst,
jjh927 (2): Mathdino, ruru,
BlackStar (1): ofrhz,
Mathdino (1): pinturicchio,
the worst (1): HitAlt,
ruru (1): davesaz,
pinturicchio (1): jjh927,

Not Voting: HeWhoSwims, Something_Smart, Zoronos,

S_S V/LA till Tuesday

(expired on 2018-06-06 23:00:00)

A neutron goes into a bar and asks the bartender, "How much for a beer?"
The bartender replies, "For you, no charge."

This still confuses me

ofrhz why are you voteparked on Blackstar?
Pintu why are you voteparked on Math?

That's an RVS vote that hasn't changed 'cause I have no strong scumreads at this moment, only strong townreads. Seems to me that a lot of players have talked about PoE when a PoE read on D1 is... reachy? So there are not too many players from my POV to townread and that makes difficult to make the decision on who I want to push. For example: I have ofrhz, BlackStar, jjh and the duckling in the top of my mind (in no particular order), but with those 4 I have like 3 theories that contradict themselves, and I don't want to discard theories with my vote for now. I mean, me voting for someone would be me making a stand on something that I believe, and at this point I believe like 3 things (that's what I'm trying to say)

[pinturicchio]

Sorry guys, my friend's father's dead has affected me more that I thought and even if I have the time to look and read some posts, I really have no motivation at this moment to do something about it. Some quick thoughts: I'm not scumreading ofrhz (I think she asked me if I was scumreading her?), I saw the duckling's case on her and, if ofrhz WAS scum, his case on her seemed like bussing. That doesn't mean I think ofrhz is scum. I had a solid townread on ruru for how she started the day, but that has changed a little, I see some coincidental things between this game and our scumgame together, but I wouldn't go for that today, need some more time. One of my tinfoil hats is that NSG and Mathdino are scum together, since Dino is partially avoiding to make a read on NSG and vice versa. One of jjh reactions pinged me as scummy, and this time scummy could equal scum (different from my first perception about him at the begining of the game). Solid townread ond Zoronos, would bet a kidney for that. Blackstar is under my radar and oh boy that almost always means something but oh boy I never do something about it. I don't like HitAlt's playstyle and the same thing happened in another game where the other player was scum, but it would be a falacy to push him because of only one case. Something_Smart is somewhat smart.

Check out this entire ISO starting from here for "things that work great one game but that you can never do again".

I almost relate to pintu -- I get the vibe that he doesn't actually much enjoy playing scum and he seems to get slightly more indignant when he has to play it.

I love playing scum, makes me concentrate better on the game. In Tit for Tat I was indignant 'cause it was my first scumgame and I was getting lynched on D1 so I was frustrated, but in Newbie 1859 I had a lot of fun and I think it was one of my best games here, and have no more completed scumgames. I think the most important factors for me to enjoy the game are 1. the playerlist and 2. how much time and dedication I can provide.

[pinturicchio]

i think i'm on record elsewhere for saying that if i were scum with NSG i would just bus her so i wouldn't get BoP'd for misreading her later on

granted i'm literally on record saying that so wifom wifom wifom

pintu do you have scumreads?

cuz it seems like this game is really lacking scumreads

town is still {ruru, Zor, HitAlt} i agree

Yeah but you're still on time to bus her since you're avoiding a read on her, and I said that 'cause I've seen you said that before (I gave some time about that to see where you were going with your read on her and the last thing you said is that there could be scum in {SS, NSG}

No scumreads, sorry. Lack of motivation has me with too many nullreads; at this point I should have more townreads to start my conspiracy theories, but I'm confident in Zoronos and maybe ruru and ofrhz.

[pinturicchio]

pinturicchio - I will feel bad if RL is the real cause of the issues here. But it felt scum before that point.

If you think I felt scum before IRL reasons, why you didn't push me? You aren't pushing me right now either, why vote HWS instead of me? This seems like you are setting yourself for voting me when the opportunity comes, let's say, if someone starts a wagon on me. Start it yourself, or is that too much compromise? D2 would look horrible for the one who starts the wagon on the low hanging fruit.
VOTE: davesaz

[pinturicchio]

What's tmi?

[pinturicchio]

Thanks, I get what ruru is saying, but umm it's a stretch. I'm more concerned on Dino townreading NSG after saying in the thread that if he was scum with her, he would bus her to get towncred. Paranoia is driving me crazy about these two

[pinturicchio]

If you're only scumreading one of us off the association, you're better off waiting for flips than tryna call a scumteam d1

Yeah I agree with this, but since you're so good reading NSG (I'm not being sarcastic, I really think you are) and people believe this, NSG will never flip, neither you. That's why I'm paranoic, you are strong enough to protect NSG, NSG is strong enough to protect NSG, and you are strong enough to protect yourself until LyLo. The best way of lynching scum!Dino is BoP and you know it, that's why you would bus NSG; but that's when WIFOM comes: since you know that people know you would bus NSG, you have the liberty of not doing it. I have reasons to believe you're scum this game, but they're not strong enough to push you since you have the potential of solving the game better than me; so yes, I will wait a day or two (if I'm alive of course) to come back to this.

[pinturicchio]

@ruru- newbie 1867 has finished if you want to talk about it

Wow, that Nachomamma fella is good

[pinturicchio]

I think we'll win more games by mostly trusting Md's nsg read than being paranoid about it (also, she seems town anyway)

Even if he lies every time about her as scum, it's like having an 80% sane cop result or something

Which isn't to mention that lying every time is far from equilibrium and it's super risky for him because if nsg becomes obvious scum then he's getting lynched afterward too

Yeah but the chances of both being scum is not so high so maybe he will have that chance like only once or twice, so I would expect him trying to pull that play. But yes ruru you're absolutely right, 9 out of 10 games is better trusting Dino on town!NSG 'cause only by chances, {town!Dino, town!NSG} + {scum!Dino, town!NSG} > {scum!Dino, scum!NSG}, so yes, NSG is probably town in this game, and not only because of Dino's read on her, I liked her early posts too, and after reading a her ISO in Newbie 1867, I think I have a better metaread on her

[pinturicchio]

i know i'm not helping any case here but i played 2.5 days of a game once by straight up wholesale impersonating NSG's town meta so i'm wondering if i'd try to write some solid-ass townposts for her if we were scum together

okay so we gotta lynch someone and everyone thinks they themselves are a suboptimal lynch

i put out the call for reasons to townread ofrhz
i am disappointed with the lack of response

why should i townread ofrhz

Gutread, she (sorry ofrhz I always called you "he" in our previous games ) seems to be playing like Pick Your Poison; people wanting to lynch her on D1 is like a deja vu. Also her reaction to her wagon: in PYP her reaction was awful, she gained a policylynch status only for how she reacted; here, she was more "I don't know how to say it in english but like calm but that's not the word I'm looking for" after her wagon started to build. Do you think scum!ofrhz reacts better to her wagon that town!ofrhz? By Occam's razor, town!ofrhz learned how to react better to votes makes much more sense than scum!ofrhz reacts better than town!ofrhz.

(Also my gutreads are good)

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: ofrhz
good thinkin tho!

I like where you're coming from, after extracting a bit more of your thought process.
tbh I think I'm being dumb with ofrhz. tonally she seems similar to our last game, but there's something awkward there.

also wagon motivation checks out

holy balls what is this vote

VOTE: the worst

Aaaah here's the good ol' Dino I like

[pinturicchio]

so let's just get this fuckin straight guys

pull up TW ISO and ctrl+f by "ofr"

so what we got is a soft defence of ofrhz throughout the entire first half of the day
- WHY ARE PEOPLE SCUMREADING OFRHZ HMMMM? (345)
- IDK OFRHZ KINDA SEEMS LIKE TOWN (317)
- STOP FLIP FLOPPING ON OFRHZ (306)

and then suddenly he's like "whelp NSG, blackstar and dino are on the wagon, maybe i'm stupid, WAGON HO!"
ignoring the fact that i was obviously just sheeping someone and didn't have a read on ofrhz myself

amusing sidenote, i missed 664 literally asking if people are ctrl+f'ing "ofrhz" in his ISO

regardless, it's opportunistic as fuck, ofrhz is known to be an easy D1 lynch

Notice me, Dino Senpai

[pinturicchio]

so let's just get this fuckin straight guys

pull up TW ISO and ctrl+f by "ofr"

so what we got is a soft defence of ofrhz throughout the entire first half of the day
- WHY ARE PEOPLE SCUMREADING OFRHZ HMMMM? (345)
- IDK OFRHZ KINDA SEEMS LIKE TOWN (317)
- STOP FLIP FLOPPING ON OFRHZ (306)

and then suddenly he's like "whelp NSG, blackstar and dino are on the wagon, maybe i'm stupid, WAGON HO!"
ignoring the fact that i was obviously just sheeping someone and didn't have a read on ofrhz myself

amusing sidenote, i missed 664 literally asking if people are ctrl+f'ing "ofrhz" in his ISO

regardless, it's opportunistic as fuck, ofrhz is known to be an easy D1 lynch

Notice me, Dino Senpai

Whoops fucked up the second post, here it is

[pinturicchio]

i'm not going to entertain a "the worst is scum because ofrhz is scum and TW is bussing/distancing her" theory when i'm not scumreading ofrhz in the first place lol

notable that TW has basically sheeped NSG onto 2 different people that he wasn't really even scumreading

No no, read the second post, the first one was for context

[pinturicchio]

<insert some silly joke in here then LAUGH AT IT>

<Laughing out loud intensifies>

[pinturicchio]

m'bad, 3 different people

my scumpool is something like

one of the worst/jjh
Smart (pending meta review)
HWS
pintu

core town is still {ruru, Zor, HitAlt} although i would really like to feel confident on ruru given that i didn't come up with that read and someone else did
NSG can probably be added to that for now

You're trusting me on town!ruru so you can scratch me out of that silly scumpool of yours

[pinturicchio]

pintu i missed your fairly decent case because it got drowned out by davesaz and ruru arguing for 2 pages about mafia theory and how to meta me when i'm literally not posting

Well, we came to almost the same conclusions based on the same info, so either I'm getting better at doing scumreads, or you got worse

[pinturicchio]

at some point y'all gonna have to accept that i did not read the majority of this game and it is a relatively good assumption that i have not read post #XYZ until i have explicitly said that i read it

i can trust you on town ruru without trusting your alignment
just like you're trusting me on town NSG without trusting my alignment

you having been scumbuddies with ruru is a pretty decent reason so i'll leave her as 3rd down on my townpool

but yeah i probably would have had different reads if i was present for more things lol

Second paragraph, touché. First paragraph, ok, but if you don't start townreading me soon I'll BoP lynch you 'cause you know how to read me (this, of course, is a joke... Or is it? )

[pinturicchio]

<insert some silly joke in here then LAUGH AT IT>

<Laughing out loud intensifies>

pintu is now 1 shot BP + 1 shot unlynchable.

I'll take this as absolute truth

[pinturicchio]

Second paragraph, touché. First paragraph, ok, but if you don't start townreading me soon I'll BoP lynch you 'cause you know how to read me (this, of course, is a joke... Or is it? )

tell that to NSG my man

she has like 50 secret tells on you, i just sheep her read on you to hell and back

@the worst: just got back from newbie 1865
ofrhz scumgame characterized by consistently contrived/stretchy reasoning mixed in with some decently worded reasoning
it's walls of gilded shit basically

i don't see that here basically

I'm very curious about those tells 'cause I don't know if I have a meta and really want to know to learn about myself, not even to get better or something, but she doesn't want to tell me

[pinturicchio]

Lynchpool: hws, pintu, the worst

Honorable mention to SS

Why me? I thought you understood that my lack of activity was NAI, and at this point there should be some progression on my slot since I've been more active, for better or for worse.

[pinturicchio]

Tell me why my dave vote was bad?

[pinturicchio]

...and I don’t like how you keep bringing up your analysis of the worst’s vote like you’re trying to gain cred off that one thing. I also think town!pintu is a clever guy and I’m not seeing that here

Also, about the worst's analysis: fair, but I'm quoting myself about tw 'cause it was almost the one big case I made and it was ignored. About clever guy, scum!pintu is clever too. Pintu is clever. And if you don't see town!pintu yet is because of lack of activity, so we go back to square one.

[pinturicchio]

Pintu's: your logic is based almost entirely on how scumleaning someone lynchbaity is scummy, which is invalid because town scumlean lynchbait all the time.

My logic is based on how he hasn't said absolutely nothing about me and he drops the bomb saying I was already scummy before IRL reasons, in order to get a vote on me without repercussions. It's not the same of what you're saying.

[pinturicchio]

My logic is based on how he hasn't said absolutely nothing about me and he drops the bomb saying I was already scummy before IRL reasons, in order to get a vote on me without repercussions. It's not the same of what you're saying.

He didn't vote you though...

Also do you think town are less likely to suddenly out a read like that than scum are? Because town are more likely to capriciously change reads whereas scum, if something like this was planned out, could easily have mentioned it earlier so it didn't look as weird.

Yes, he didn't vote me, I said that too in my vote post, and that's another reason I'm pushing him; why voting HWS and not me? For me, it felt like the time was not right for voting me since there's no one pushing me and there were others talking about HWS. Call me crazy but it felt like inception

[pinturicchio]

t's what I'm getting at about scumleans. A scumlean is literally when you scumread someone but not enough to vote, and town have those just as much as scum do...

(It could even be for the reason you described! Sometimes town will pragmatically vote the player among their scumreads that they most expect a wagon to develop on. I know it sounds scummy but town players do it.)

Read his post again, I'm not a scumlean, I'm a scumread. I'm at the bottom of his list with HWS, his scumleans are jjh, the worst and ofrhz. Both Duckling and jjh are sort of a common scumlean/read for almost everyone on this game, ofrhz wagon stagnated, went for HWS who was starting to get some attention. I agree, town votes for promising wagons, but that doesn't mean my vote on him is bad. I asked why my vote on him was bad, because saying that is a strong thing to say (especially coming from ofrhz who said he was scumreading me because of that vote) and I'm pretty open to be convinced on why I am wrong.

[pinturicchio]

But if JJH is saying legit things, I'm upside down on a read, and I've been staring at my little notepad, and I think the read I'm most likely upside down on is HWS.
His postcount is lower than I thought it was, he's been largely gliding by, and he's a potential the_worst partner.

So if we lynch JJH and he flips green and I die in the night ~mysteriously~ I'd recommend having a think about HWS. I'm not at 'tunnel until dead' levels of surety or 'murder with vig' levels of surety, but I'd recommend giving that slot increased scrutiny if I perish.

You got it.

I'll sign off on that too.

I like this

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

His vote on my wagon was bad

He admitted his reasons for scumreading me were weak, yet tried to throw shade on ruru for having those same reasons

I have to admit, I overestimated how the thread was talking about HWS; I felt like dave decided to vote HWS over me because people were starting to suspect him and he only gave the first step to get followed by strong players like Zor and Dino, but yeah I thought there was more things on HWS so maybe you're right and I felt alluded 'cause I was sad the other day. But I still think saying "Pintu's vote on dave was bad" is an exaggeration and that ofrhz is trying to justify a gutread on me with bad arguments

[pinturicchio]

Yeah too late ofrhz I already figured it out, still think there's no relation between a bad vote and me being scum but sure you do you

VOTE: jjh this is a better vote for you

[pinturicchio]

Yeah sorry Dave I was really emotional yesterday (was it yesterday that I voted for you?) Thanks to Somewhat_Smart and me having a better day.

Now that you are here, did your reads changed? Is HWS still scum?

[pinturicchio]

My other scumread is pintu

I'm curious about this

I’m actually not sure about this anymore because he just admitted things outside the game are affecting his motivation to play

She implicitly said that one of her reasons to scumread me was lack of motivation; after I explained lack of motivation was NAI, she started to pull off reachy things to push me, so I assume she's still scumreading me but with no other reason than gut. I don't mind gutreads, my gutreads are great so if she want to go with that, she's in all her right, but you have to do a step back and recognize when you're reading every single thing a player is posting as scummy just because you feel like it and not because of logic reasons. And I don't get why you're saying something something +EV (btw I don't know what that means) when I'm trying to cooperate with one of my townreads.

[pinturicchio]

Other options:
* ofrhz is PoE scumreading you / she doesn't have strong reads this game, knows that getting d1 lynched is -EV, and prefers to lynch someone who isn't confirmed town (This is where I'm at in the game right now so honestly it seems highly plausible...)
* you're misreading ofrhz and she's scum

Oh and if it's by PoE she hasn't stated that, I would be fine with that too since after flips she would know she's wrong, and yes, I could be misreading her, but then again, maybe I'm not misreading her and there's the option I'm trying to get "detunneled" (it's a real word look it up) by people I think are town.

[pinturicchio]

I feel like tunneling/confbias is different from gutreading

Maybe I'm been using the wrong word what's confbias

[pinturicchio]

Confirmation bias, like when you're already scumreading someone everything they do seems scummy

Whereas a gutread would be more like scumreading someone

to begin with

with no clear reason

Oh ok so I had the gutread thing right but I was using in both cases, you're right, I meant confbias. Well it's easy to see I meant that, is basically the exact definition what I wrote in my last posts

[pinturicchio]

Yeah, why, and why to the other analysis too; do you have anything to backup those feelings? I do feel we got one scum because of the stagnation of the game, but the "2 scum in one wagon and 1 scum in other or not voting" seems like a stretch

[pinturicchio]

Yeah, why, and why to the other analysis too; do you have anything to backup those feelings? I do feel we got one scum because of the stagnation of the game, but the "2 scum in one wagon and 1 scum in other or not voting" seems like a stretch

If everyone votes, then there has to be at least 2 scum on one of the wagons

Why. There are 3 scums and three wagons. Am I missing something?

[pinturicchio]

I've played with scum!HWS. I don't feel the same way I felt in that game about him, and I was the one who caught him there. I've not said a lot about that issue because I was biased (I was the Jailkeeper and stopped his shot and I got pretty convinced that that was what happened, since there was a Doc claim too), so maybe my metaread is not as solid as I wish it was... But is definetely enough to push jjh instead of him

[pinturicchio]

NSG is being surprisingly incompetent from my pov, the worst is scum, mathdino should know better, IDK shit about ruru



Pintu- what's different about me here than in noir

Why are you asking me and not Mathdino, competent player who was the mod of that game and is scumreading you too?

My answer is "I didn't read you in Noir 'cause I was focused on mutant's lynch and you had to claim tracker so it was never necessary", but if you want me to reach, you seemed more relaxed there than here even when people was voting your predecessor. Here you seem frustrated any time someone votes you or scumread you.

Also to be completely honest your avatar is freaking me out and I would be glad if I don't have to see it anymore in this game

[pinturicchio]

Wow, you sure are good at calling bullshit and incompetent people who scumread you. If you don't say why is bullshit, then keep it for yourself. And the "most likely scum on my wagon" is OMGUS at its finest

[pinturicchio]

In this particular case, bullshit is where I am accusing you of being completely and verifiably inccorrect rather thanjust giving a bad answer.

You absolutely did make an effort to place me when I replaced in in noir. You are now attempting to write it off

No, jjh, i didn't make an effort to sort you in that game. I asked you which song would you like, you asked me if I was already townreading you and I said no, that I asked for it if I ever thought you were townie enough to be in my townbloc, but that you were in good track. That's all I said about you before you counterclaimed tracker. So not only your answer to me was innecesarily agressive, you also made me lose my time and go read another game to realize you were the one lying. Don't make me lose my time again with unjustified bullshit

[pinturicchio]

HitAlt's tunnel on the duckling reminds me of a fake tunnel that vulcan logician had on me on our last game, and by fake I mean "scum hard tunneling someone since early D1 until the end". We either lynch the worst or HitAlt before LyLo, 'cause in that game I lived until MyLo and the other scum option was vulcan and it was not nice to be in that situation, @duckling you know what I mean

@Blackstar mind to be more specific on your commentary about me conveniently voting jjh? Easy to say, but with no backup is just free shading at EoD, which could perfectly be an excuse to justify an early push on D2. By the way, I would not be asking this if I agreed with you at least a little, but I couldn't agree less

[pinturicchio]

You haven't said much about why you suck read jjh. And you haven't engaged with him much since your vote. So to me it looks a little bit convenient. I've been the same way with hewhoswims though, so I don't necessarily think that makes you scum. I just thought it was worth noting that people are hopping on his wisdom but not really pushing that hard for his lynch.

Yeah I get it, but I've been saying that jjh seams scummy since the begining of the game, since NSG's read on him. I mean maybe NSG was lucky and pushed the right guy, but his reaction in the early game was bad. But yes, I've not pushed him that much 'cause my reads sucks ass in this game because of lack of motivation early in this day and along midday too. I've been struggling to the idea of replacing out to not dissapoint you guys since you deserve better, but I'm giving myself a second chance on D2.

[pinturicchio]

HitAlt's tunnel on the duckling reminds me of a fake tunnel that vulcan logician had on me on our last game, and by fake I mean "scum hard tunneling someone since early D1 until the end". We either lynch the worst or HitAlt before LyLo, 'cause in that game I lived until MyLo and the other scum option was vulcan and it was not nice to be in that situation, @duckling you know what I mean

I skimmed that game.
I'm not sure if the situation can be compared directly, but I agree that one/both of us need to flip before later this game.
You caught the scum in that game though.

Yeah but not until Rei was conftown and the duckling trusted me at the end, I still can't believe we got it right.

[pinturicchio]

Don't cc either

[pinturicchio]

Pintu's dave vote was bad yeah, but the reasoning looked like he really believed it and so it strikes me more as town-bad than scum-bad.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.

This is basically the only thing you've said about me in the thread and now I'm one of your preferred lynches? You have done NOTHING to sort ANYONE in this game and your readlist is awful to say it as nice as I can.

VOTE: Something_Smart

[pinturicchio]

Everybody's got something to hide except me and my monkey

[pinturicchio]

That's because that is a Beatles' song

[pinturicchio]

Talking about OMGUS

[pinturicchio]

I have some pretty solid townreads, Zoronos, I don't know if that's enough for getting you off my beautiful ass

[pinturicchio]

My fear is that 1) and 2) aren't mutually exclusive; I know I haven't played my best game in here so I get why people don't trust me, but it seems like some players are waiting for me doing something remotely scummy to jump on me and that feeling is awful

[pinturicchio]

I am voting you because you refused to answer my question. Answer it and my vote moves unless your answer is egregious.
Thanks to a lot of heel dragging we’re two days from deadline without strong consensus, so my tolerance for screwing about is low.
Either help build useful consensus or risk being the target of that consensus.

I have given my reads multiple times, sorry for not taking your question seriously, but I'm an open book; if any of my reads change, I come here and say it. Also, who named you town mayor to decide where the wave flows?
You, ruru and ofrhz all seems town from my perspective
HWS and HitAlt, although I don't like the tunneling from the latter, are both ok and they shouldn't be lynched today
Dino and NSG are my paranoia reads, I still think they could be scum together... But probably they aren't. I think the most likely situation is that both are town, followed by scum!Dino and town!NSG, and finally by both scum, but I like the idea of both being scum and me catching them
The worst and Blackstar are both nulls; duckling more leaned to scum but that's not my read, I'm following other players on that; and Blackstar because he's still under my radar
jjh well he claimed but he's still the scummiest player in the game
and then there's SS who, even if you think it was an OMGUS vote, I do think that he has done little to nothing, basically I think your point on him was pretty good. The timing was bad 'cause he was pushing me, but I think pushing me is something scum would like to do right now that jjh claimed, so it's a fair read too

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos I think the consensus now should be waiting the remaining players to see if there's a cc, I agree with ruru in that matter

[pinturicchio]

I won't be here to make some reads today and we are close to deadline aaaaand I really want to hammer jjh after him calling bullshit on me (and his avatar, of course), but if you guys want to talk about something else before ending the day, I can wait

[pinturicchio]

If jjh is the framer, who should the cop check?

[pinturicchio]

Quick reminder: don't like the idea of hypoclaiming 'cause it gives information to the scumteam, reduces the pool of possible PRs, especially if one of the scums is being read as town (example: lot of hypoclaims on ruru, ruru was scum all along, now ruru knows who can't be cop); there are other subtle ways of revealing information in case the cop dies.

[pinturicchio]

An issue without hypoclaiming is honestly, cops with innos are super obvious if you know what to look for. So if it's between having a pool of maybe 4 possible cops vs one super obvious cop without any cover, I prefer teaching hypoclaiming.

This is a great point actually, never thought of that. Ok I'll follow you on the hypoclaiming then; almost everyone has done it so there's no point on holding it back

I hypoclaim an inno on BlackStar

[pinturicchio]

Any thoughts re: reads?

If you were talking to me: I'm catching up and reading Something_Smart's ISO; even if between the two it's pretty obvious NSG was the scum shot, there's a slight chance that the scumteam pushed SS on D1 and then shot him because of his reads. By Occam's razor, SS was the vigshot, but you know I love them tinfoil hats

[pinturicchio]

BlackStar
HWS
Zoronos
ruru
pintu
the worst
ofrhz
HitAlt
davesaz

this is where i stand i think

Why is ofrhz so low? He was higher in your readlist before, what changed?

[pinturicchio]

It generates no read and no actionable information while looking like he did work.

Hey, I said what I was going to do, "generates no read and no actionable information" is a fact, but "looking like he did work" is your perception; don't say it like an asseveration. But I agree with the first two thing, I don't get why Dino said that post was townie either.

[pinturicchio]

Hey Pintu:
Who is the scum and why?

Are you starting this again? Again with the "if you don't say your reads I'm voting you" shit? I already said: I'm catching up, I'm reading SS' ISO and I'm going to contribute after that

[pinturicchio]

vig the bottom section, copclear {worst, pintu, ruru} and we're good to go

Edit: @pintu: I'm unimpressed by their associatives, and my reasons for townreading him yesterday don't matter as much as flips do.

ruru is a bad copclear; from others' point of view, if you don't town it up at the end of the day, you are a great target to clear.

About edit: fair enough, makes sense. Just pinged me that he went from town to "I have to sort her"

[pinturicchio]

Pintu: Not all posts need to generate reads. Sometimes you do work and go "well, no result" and that's fine. But that's an NAI post, not a towny one. My problem isn't with your originating post; I felt it was NAI because it could be town going 'welp no result better luck next time' or scum trying to blend in. I, as town, evaluated both probabilities. I find Math's response incongruous because he didn't seem to be weighing the 'Maybe that's scum Pintu trying to active lurk' angle.

Zoronos, what I said is that I agree with you; I too think my post was NAI and felt that Dino's townlean on me because of that post was weird. I disagreed with your "while looking like he did work" 'cause that's an opinion, and you gave two facts together with that opinion. Blending in an opinion with two facts to make it look like a fact is a no no for me, so I commented it, that's all.

[pinturicchio]

Why Something_Smart could've been the scumshot: the conspiracy theory.
This are the posts that pinged me the most while looking at SS' ISO. Now that I read it, it's not that crazy to think that he was the scumshot, since he said some things that could be considered as PR crumbing:

Well, I'd be skeptical of ANY strong read on me, not just a scumread.

I don't believe that a strong scumread on me is questionable because I'm obviously town-- if that were the case, I'd write something closer to the latter. Instead, I believe that a strong scumread on me is questionable because I haven't given enough content to be readable that confidently, in which case my guilt or innocence is actually irrelevant.

Talking about "guilt or innocence" pinged me the first time and pinged me again rereading his ISO. Maybe the scumteam thought he was the cop?

No CC and will respond to Zoronos soon.

Glad we didn't out a useful PR.

SS was being pushed on D1 too, and says "glad we didn't out a useful PR", could perfectly be genuine relief that he wasn't the one at L-1.

My reads are basically:
HitAlt, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, and Zoronos are bad lynches because I townread them.
jjh is obviously a bad lynch barring a counterclaim.
Mathdino, davesaz and northsidegal are bad lynches because I haven't seen anything especially bad from them and they should be easier to sort later in the game.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.

This was the last (and only) readlist coming from him. We know HWS is conftown, so either ofrhz or me could be worried being his target if he was the cop; I don't think that's the case, because I'm not scum, duh, and I don't think ofrhz would be a good cop target. I think his three "bad lynches 'cause they should be easier to sort later" could again be considered as crumbing an the list of players he would target as cop; we know NSG is town, so davesaz and Mathdino are both players that could be worried about a cop check.

If we get a JK flip vig should shoot someone else other than confscum.

But here's some refutal: from vig's perspective, SS saying this could be taken as scummy; "if we get a JK flip" could sound like "I'm trying to hide the fact that I KNOW this is not a JK flip".

Either way, my conclusion is that SS was a good shot either coming from the vig or the scumteam, while NSG was a good shot coming from scum but not as much coming from the vig, unless the vig thought my lovely theory about scum!Dino and scum!NSG together and didn't have the willpower to shoot the dinosaur.

I'm not a fan of NKA, but I do think that both deads are good for scum!Dino: if SS was the scumshot ( ), both Dino and davesaz could've have done it, and Dino now publicly stating that he's a great PR hunter could back up this theory; if NSG was the target, scum!Dino could be worried of her sorting him out later. I personally think that's not the case, but it does ping me that scum decided not to kill a confirmed PR and instead shot another player. Given the facts, shooting SS over NSG looking for one of the PRs makes more sense, so either a) NSG was killed because of something else than her being a possible PR, or b) SS was shot because being a possible PR.

Now, Something_Funny I noticed about Something_Smart: he didn't vote not a single time during D1.

VOTE: Mathdino

[pinturicchio]

No no, I said I was going to do this to see what I concluded, and I still think the same as both of you: NSG was killed by scum, SS was the vig shot, but I didn't want to disregard the possibility. I said it before: by Occam's razor, it's obvious.

@ruru why do you think it isn't gamesolvey? This is the first time I feel engaged with the game and that's good to gamesolve from your perspective and from mine.

[pinturicchio]

Dude, me showing the reasoning behind something I did is not anti game-solving, period. Part of gamesolving is being townread by your fellow townreads, and me being an open book is something I do everytime I'm town, to show what's behind my reads. And "also the logic of MathDino shooting a maybe-PR bla bla bla" you're invalidating a point that I don't back up, stop with the straw man falacies. If I say two times "I think that SS was the vig shot because of this and that" and I vote Dino, why the fuck do you think I'm voting Dino for trying to kill SS??

[pinturicchio]

How do you read davesaz atm, pin?

He's my other suspect after my reasoning: I'm sorting Dino and that's my priority, 'cause if my conclusion is that he's town, dave is a good vote, and I had some scum vibes coming from him on D1, but disregarded them 'cause some players started to say it was a bad vote and I was not having good reads on D1.

[pinturicchio]

So like with 1568 I somehow was very strongly reminded of this

It's like similarly timed a little bit into d2, and is kind of a wallpost but seems to have a lot of things in it that you "don't think anymore" which I'm not sure why a town player posts as opposed to a scum player trying to demonstrate town thoughts?

Is it coincidence?

I couldn't agree less, especially because of context: in that game I was all over the place, and you know it. I said it already: I did this to motivate myself to play this game 'cause this will be the last one until further notice, since I have my college's final proyect in early August and it was either replacing out now or do something about it. I'm doing something about it.

So no, timing is totally different (I mean yeah both were on D2 but one was after being very productive and the other is one of the first content posts I did in the game), "kind of a wallpost" is NAI and in one I was giving a solid townread to ofrhz to pocket her and in the other I'm just putting my thoughts for everyone to see.

[pinturicchio]

Mathdino unsorted, wanna sort him to get better reads about the gamestate
HeWhoSwims conftown
ofrhz town
ruru town
the worst unsortable for me
Zoronos town but tired of him
davesaz scumlean
BlackStar null
HitAlt scumlean

[pinturicchio]

So no, timing is totally different (I mean yeah both were on D2 but one was after being very productive and the other is one of the first content posts I did in the game), "kind of a wallpost" is NAI and in one I was giving a solid townread to ofrhz to pocket her and in the other I'm just putting my thoughts for everyone to see.

Part of the similarity I'm seeing is that both of them were the first time you really revealed information d2 (and you mentioned in the PT that you specifically avoided giving reads early d2 in case of a cop guilty), but in each case it was a long post that actually didn't give much information

Oh ok I see that. I think the difference is that in that game I was townreading ofrhz, doubted Dino's read on ofrhz and came back to the same place I was before, so yeah, it had no real content and tried to look busy; but now, even if I still think NSG was the scum target, thanks to doing that process I now think I can be part of this game and have my own reads. Now, the other difference is, again, context. That was the first time I revealed info d2, in this game this was the first time I revealed info in the entire game

[pinturicchio]

UNVOTE: Mathdino

[pinturicchio]

you don't have the right to shit on how i choose to express my reads when you're literally not voting/pushing anyone

This.

Also, I realized that sorting Math at this point of the game is useless; if he's still alive at LyLo or 1 day before LyLo, either he's scum because of BoP or he solves the game as town. My Tit for Tat's scumteam decided to let him alive 'cause he was having bad reads and they could push him because of that, and the backfire was tremendous.

That being said, I think Math is town.

[pinturicchio]

I wasn't trying to push it, I thought SS was the vig shot too; I've said several times that it was a theory I wanted to check in order to get me motivated on this game since my D1 was awful, but people didn't get that and started shitting on me, so I get it, no more showing my thinking process to everyone.

[pinturicchio]

Oh and VOTE: the worst

[pinturicchio]

Sorry didn't realize you were catching up

[pinturicchio]

Oh and VOTE: the worst

What made you do this?

I like HitAlt's argument about meta tone and not meta actions. I too see that duckling's duck is off; he hasn't directly interacted that much with players who I assume he wants to avoid. I'm one of those players: I usually jam a little with the duck, and he's the one who approaches me first (not always, but very often), but here I don't see that.

[pinturicchio]

I know I'm a hypocrite but I want to finish this discussion with Zor before a quickhammer
VOTE: pintu
Leaving this here
I believe pintu figured out that I was townreading him for being shit
And super played that up afterward when he noticed that
Rurus analysis of his scumgame is pretty damning

I agree, Ruru's case on me is the best one I've seen so far, the only player I believe is pushing me not because of an agenda but genuinely thinks I'm scum, so good job ruru.

On the other hand, you're giving too much importance to yourself; I don't know what tells you have on me, neither NSG's tells. I would love to, but I don't. I think this is like what, the fourth or fivth time I say this? I did my NKA wallpost to motivate myself into this game, so you saying that it was to get even more townread by you is just the cherry on the cake.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: HitAlt

VOTE: hitalt

UNVOTE:

What

VOTE: pintu

VOTE: pintu

[pinturicchio]

Sure, me doing that is natural and is partially a justification for my own playstyle

Fundamentally, it's hard for me to believe you chose to spend that much time on whether SS was the nightkill after people were so unresponsive to it

So regardless of whether you were playing specifically me
The idea is that you're faking tinfoil town

For the last time, I did it for myself, not for anyone to read me. It was that or replacing out. I have fun making tinfoil hat theories, that's what I do. I said at the end that my conclusion was that, after analyzing the evidence, NSG still was most likely the scum target. So it wasn't a tinfoil hat at all either, it was me talking out loud what I was doing, 'cause Zoros was pushing me for no reason and I said I was going to do that, so if I didn't I would give more reasons for Zoros to be biased about me, like "hey Pin you said you were going to read SS' ISO but you didn't, ERGO you're scum!1!!" or some shit like that. So:
I said I was going to read SS' ISO to get info 'cause either you like or not, he was a VT flip, so looking for what he was pushing/what people pushed him for on D1; after saying I was going to do it, not only I wanted to, but I had to, 'cause I have one or two players that won't stop pushing me for NAI reasons but justified that I had a shitty D1, but NAI after all; I finally read SS' ISO and gave my conclusions here to motivate myself and engage with whoever wanted to discuss, but it backfired since like the only reply I remember is Zoro once more saying shit.

There, that's my rant. Read my early D1 before I flaked for IRL reasons and unvote me, 'cause, as I said, the only player who seems to be legitimely reading me as scum, even if she's wrong, is ruru.

[pinturicchio]

I realize I play anti-meta wrt votes on this site.
I don’t apologize for it, but I do apologize that I can cause frustration unnecessarily.

I am frustrated, but it's not your fault. Sorry if my posting says the opposite, but I don't blame anyone but myself.

[pinturicchio]

What's the point of 1852?

I thought it was a funny sequence

[pinturicchio]

If I'm the only one legitimately scumreading you then why are you arguing with the others

I don't get your question. Do you mean I should be discussing with you? I'm not discussing with anyone at this moment, so I would gladly talk to you.

[pinturicchio]

What's the point of 1852?

I thought it was a funny sequence

Funny haha or funny someone's scummy?

Funny haha

[pinturicchio]

What's the point of 1852?

I thought it was a funny sequence

Funny haha or funny someone's scummy?

Funny haha

Really? I read it as you FoS'ing ofrhz.

Yes, really.

[pinturicchio]

I don't get your question. Do you mean I should be discussing with you? I'm not discussing with anyone at this moment, so I would gladly talk to you.

I meant like, if you think my case is good/towny, but it's wrong, wouldn't you be most interested in convincing me out of it (compared to the others)

I realized after writing it that it's kind of an unfair/confbiasy question and arguing with people other than me can also influence my opinion or expose scum motivation in their reads

As I said, I'm not discussing with anyone at this moment, I had my rant, I'm more relaxed now. And don't get me wrong, even if I think that other players are biased about me because my shitty D1 play, well... I had a shitty D1 play so I get that I'm one of the best lynch options right now. Problem is, I'm not scum, so I know I'm not the best option. But things are getting interesting.

[pinturicchio]

Who do you actually suspect atm pin

Because you're saying people pushing you have an agenda, and ofrhz was pushing you since d1 I think?

I do think there's a chance she's scum with Math, and both pushing me (one active pushing and the other passive pushing) is a good strat. But that's just a theory; ofrhz have up and downs this game that pings me. At the begining, when she was being pushed, it looked like an easy mislynch just like in Pick Your Poison, but now is completely different, maybe because she's no longer under pressure. I insist, I get that on first sight I am a good lynch, but playing bad is not equal to scum, so ofrhz pushing me is pushing the easy wagon, and she doesn't do that as town (she got mislynched on D1 when she got the entire scumteam right, and in Newbie 1859 she had no problems pushing strong players). Math, on the other hand, is pushing anyone lynchable at this point, but coming from him, that's more likely to be town than scum: he just wants to end this day to advance, and I think that is a good strategy. But then again, that "own agenda" is messing with his reads, 'cause I'm lynchable, but not scum.

About other players pushing me: Blackstar is town, but I have no idea why he jumped on my wagon, so no comments there. Zoro is all over the place and I think that his solid D1 start could've been staged to get early townreads that the rest of the players (including me) haven't reevaluated because of reasons.

tl;dr: I'm townreading HWS (duh), Blackstar, ruru and HitAlt, in that order. Math is a townlean for sure, Zoro close to him. dave is null, I don't even know what to think about him; ofrhz is null now too. Duckling is scum both by PoE and solid reads from NSG and HitAlt.

[pinturicchio]

'Cause if it was a framer flip, we would know who the cop was going to check and we wouldn't have to do hypoclaims; if the cop doesn't out his check, that means the check is town, so we have a conftown player without outing the cop.

[pinturicchio]

I mean I know that would give the scumteam the option of killing whoever is checked, but that gives the PRs more days to live

[pinturicchio]

I mean I know that would give the scumteam the option of killing whoever is checked, but that gives the PRs more days to live

But HWS was already conftown so I thought the scumteam would kill him, but whatever. Why you ask? Sorry for multipost, I'm doing something else and if I don't focus I tend to submit without thinking that much

[pinturicchio]

Real answer or handy wavey answer?

I don't know what handy wavey is but it sounds bad, what's the point of asking this?

[pinturicchio]

Because I think the honest answer has a high chance of being anti-town, so I am giving you an opportunity to decide if you want me to divulge it or not.

I'm having problems understanding what do you want from me. You asked me why I asked about the framer thing, I answered; what do you want now

[pinturicchio]

Oooooooh wait wait, your honest answer would be anti town? Then don't answer.

[pinturicchio]

[pinturicchio]

Well I don't agree with Math making HitAlt and me the only possible lynches, I mean dude whatever happened to everyone else's reads and opinions? You mixing up your reads with "optimal strategy" is awful. But you're really loud, so people will follow you, and if it is between me and HitAlt, it's HitAlt.

VOTE: HitAlt

[pinturicchio]

Also isn't vig +EV tonight if we lynch town and jk doesn't need to act

JK should still act if cop gets outed, but cop won't get outed so we're good

Vig needs to act tonight to bring us back to odds yes

Hey pintu do you understand why I can't lynch TW though
Like tell me who I should be considering here

davesaz is the other player who claimed VT. I don't get when did your read on him changed, was him saying that you should know better about him? Is that easy to change your mind?

Hey Dino, you should know your read on me is bad 'cause I'm town.

[pinturicchio]

pintu is now 1 shot BP + 1 shot unlynchable.

You can't lynch me, fuckers

[pinturicchio]

I disagree with the notion that me and pintu should crossvote.
But since he already voted to kill, I'll have no trouble to follow it up.
I think my vote would put him at L-1, so in case he's scum with the intention to selfhammer I'll hold on to it for a while longer.

If our JK agrees with Dino, then maybe claim a JK target for the chance that pin flips red.

Anyone else with something on their mind should speak before it too.

I disagreed too; do you have any better alternative? I could vote Math at this point

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: Mathdino Let's gooooooooo

[pinturicchio]

duckling could you help me? I think I'm in trouble

[pinturicchio]

duckling look into my eyes and you will see what you mean to me; search your heart, search your soul, and when you find me there, you will search no more

[pinturicchio]

p... pintu not in public...

(also can you actually stare into my black beady eyes without freaking out?)

LOOK AT ME I SAY

[pinturicchio]

How about you stop being lazy town dino and/or scum dino and evaluate TW and ruru by yourself?

[pinturicchio]

I don't wanna go Mr. Dino

[pinturicchio]

what do you find inconsistent with

scum

-me here

Bolded: I could make this exact same question

[pinturicchio]

what do you find inconsistent with

scum

-me here

Bolded: I could make this exact same question

- i'm on record for never lying about mechanics and theory as scum. i've stated that multiple times outside of this game, and this is literally my scum philosophy. i have chat records and scum PTs to prove that.

- if you think it's MD/TW, then the correct thing to do here is to wait and see if neither of us get NK'd, not lynch the town leaders who just handed you scum yesterday because you don't like the PoE

- you assume that i would shoot VT NSG (PLAYING HER VT GAME, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE) instead of
-- a jailkeeper, who is stronger every time scum flips
-- a cop or a vig, when i have a literal 100% record of PR hunting
-- zoronos or someone who actually clashes with me

- you assume that i would do the above, which would ruin my ability to say "hey a VT died therefore i'm town" in all future games, when i care more about my towngames than my scumgames (also something i'm on record for)

- you assume that i would PoE myself so hard to the point of having a 2 person lynchpool thinking i can weasel out of it somehow.

- you assume that i would hardbus my framer when i was literally the only one with meta knowledge on him, and when i wasn't planning on shooting the cop last night

- and given that you're unaware of basic shit about my play (how many games have i said "i don't believe scum lies" and "i don't lie about mechanics"???) you've clearly done 0 meta research on me, which means that despite my apathy, i've done three times as much work this game as you have

- Who says you're lying about mechanics? I think that you used mechanics to leave both HitAlt and me between a rock and a hard place. I mean look at this lazy town: you say "HitAlt and pin are the optimal lynches for today" and bam! Both wagons formed.

- You saying you're one of the townleaders is plain ridiculous, and NSG was the one who made jjh's flip happen, and you've been using NSG' reads since she flipped town, so...

- By the way, that post was directed to HitAlt so neither of those "assumptions" are mine, so I don't get your point.

[pinturicchio]

- you don't get to say "mathdino is insidiously using mechanics against town" and also say that i'm not lying about mechanics. and hitalt specifically said that i was potentially lying about mechanics.

- you saying that i'm NOT one of the town leaders is plain ridiculous.

you just said that i caused both your wagons.

that makes me a leader.

- that said, i've actively told people all damn day to stop letting me just lead all over the place and to get off their asses and vote and case people instead of waiting on me to do a bunch of work. you act like i intended this town to be lazy.

- i was NSG's biggest cheerleader on D1 and she even quoted my take that jjh is obvtown as town. no one else in this game had that information (other than TW, who is apparently our scumpartner). had i argued against jjh's lynch, that lynch wouldn't have happened.

- Mechanics are mechanics, you can use them however you want; I don't say you're lying about them, I say you can use them against town too.

- What I meant is that you shouldn't be the one saying you're a town leader. We don't know your alignment; I know you're a leader, I don't know which kind of leader.

- I agree, lazy town.

- I'll give you that.

[pinturicchio]

Bryan Adams? Really?
Isn't that from Prince of Thieves? That movie was not great.

Haven't seen that movie! And Bryan Adams? More like Stewie Griffin's rendition

[pinturicchio]

@Blackstar wrong, very very wrong.

[pinturicchio]

I don't feel so good

[pinturicchio]

pintu: Talk to me about who the scum are: Show me some earnest effort to solve the game.
Your vote is on Math, so why is Math a scumsaurus? Or talk to me about who his likely partner is?

I'm in a position where no matter why I say or do, people will push me until I claim. I don't have time right now, I have a test tomorrow and I'm studying with some friends, but maybe in like 4 hours or less I'll be able to carry this game

[pinturicchio]

I'll be able to carry this game

omg big call I'm keen

Prepare yourself duckling, this game is going to get WILD

[pinturicchio]

(don't tell the duckling, but his vote on me is awful and me solving the game involves him being scum but shhhh)

[pinturicchio]

I have a feeling that if he claims cop, we'll get a scum lynch today anyway no matter what

Pintu should claim so we can get things rollin

Yeah but I want to be able to interact when I do my claim and I'm not able to do that right now

[pinturicchio]

Don't say you love me
You don't even know me
If you really want me
Then give me some time
Don't go there baby
Not before I'm ready
Don't say your heart's in a hurry
It's not like we're gonna get married
Give me, give me some time

[pinturicchio]

Sorry guys my test is early tomorrow and I can't provide with what I promised earlier (being active after my claim), but I'll be here after my test, like hmmm in 12 hours from now?

I'll give you this: I'm VT, the best one you got so far.

[pinturicchio]

Ok hi hello I'm back!
1. Zoronos you were right reading me like I was a PR; I had an awful D1 and tried to turn it back hoping I would be the nightkill by asking who should the Cop check. I knew I was going to be mislynchable, so the best option was that. Scumteam didn't buy it, I'm still here and here we are, about to mislynch me.
2. One of the reasons I don't like hypoclaims is because you have to stick with your hypoclaim as long as you can, 'cause if you don't you give info to the scumteam. Problem is, it looked like I had no good reads when in reality I wanted to push Blackstar soooooo bad this day.
3. Mathdino knows about that, or at least I think he should know it, and that's why I said a couple of times that he used mechanics in his favour: he hypoclaimed an inno on Blackstar, and I'm pretty much convinced that both of them are the scumteam.
4. About "pintu is scum and he knew claiming VT was the best option" uuuuh if I was scum I would claim Cop, I've hinted it a lot, and I would've said that my hypoclaim was false, that I checked Something Smart but I had to play along with Dino; in the position I am, a VT wouldn't be enough to avoid the lynch, so better go with a PR claim for my partner to carry the game. Saying that it was OBVIOUS I would claim VT is pretty much WIFOM shit.
5. I assume that I was rolecopped last night, and that's why Mathdino has been so eager to push me, since he knew I would claim VT and that I was the most likely mislynch for today.

So in conclusion: I played in favour of the Cop all along, and thanks to me he/she would have survived a night or two. I knew I became expendable after my D1, so I tried to make the best for town. Mathdino, instead, tried to push Dave, realized he would get attention on himself if he did, and went to plan A: lynching me. I can only assume I was the designated D3 lynch, but things went wrong and Dino had to reduce the lynchpool. That's why I started townreading HitAlt, but unsorted both the duckling and Zoronos after a while, 'cause there was some evidence to believe they could be partners with Dino, but Blackstar alone makes much more sense and Dino being the "town leader" (said by himself) he could protect Blackstar until the end of times. He has the alibi: "he has a 100% killing PRs on night", so what? Strategy is strategy, and this was a good one. I assume Dino already knows who the other two PRs are, so asking for a Cop check on him is useless: Cop will die tonight for sure.

PS: me being partners with jjh makes sense for someone? Have you seen my interactions with him? Have you seen when and how I voted for him? I was pushing his wagon since the begining; no matter that I was reluctant with my vote, that was a general rule I applied on D1. The important thing to consider is that I agreed with NSG since the begining and pushed as much as I could. I'm not stupid, that would be an awful scum strategy. I mean, bussing is ok and I have no problem with that, but that's not bussing, that's plain stupidity.

VOTE: Mathdino I think I'm already voting him but whatever.

[pinturicchio]

Woof so many questions, let me see:
1. Zor: at that point 845 didn't ping me, but I believe what Dino has tried to do this whole game is like "being the reincarnation" of NSG. NSG died, revealed VT, Dino has been saying loud and clear that it was obvious that NSG was VT and that he has been following NSG' reads the whole game. It's a psichological way to make us believe he's town by making us complete the blank spaces between "NSG confirmed town --> Mathdino confirmed town". So yeah, Mathdino going on jjh when he was being focused by NSG means to me that Dino understood that jjh wasn't having a good game and it was time to get some credit. Timing is important: remember Dino's firsts impressions on jjh? It changed drastically after some time.
About HitAlt: I think that if we flip scum!Dino it basically confirms both me and HitAlt as town. I feel he's likely in the same situation I am, so yeah sure he could be partners with jjh, but so could ofrhz or ruru, but we're not pushing them 'cause they seem to be town. HitAlt doesn't have that much towncred because of his tunneling on D1; same as me, bad D1 ---> push them hard.

2. ruru: I made enough crumbing to make a believable claim as cop. Not that I was going to do it anyway since I'm VT, but as I said, I did a good job playing like a PR. That's why I think I was rolecopped: if they were paranoid about me being a PR or a VT playing like a PR, they would rolecop me, push me if I'm VT or leave me alone and kill me if I'm a PR. Mathdino is a good PR hunter, let's assume that after HWS revealing himself, he has 3 alternatives to be the remaining PRs: me and the other 2 PRs. Even if he's pretty sure that the other 2 guys are more likely to be PRs, he has to be sure and confirm that I'm VT. I mean, rolecop would not be necessary for him if he has a 100% rate of shooting PRs, but being insanely good doesn't mean being perfect.
About Blackstar: he's been scummy all the game, but I thought he was doing the same I was doing (at 1180 he replied me that he thought of replacing out for the same reasons like me and I felt that as genuine), but his votes has been atrocious and without any explanations whatsoever; he's been sheeping whatever is going on that doesn't concerns him. I get it, you're still playing your hypoclaim, and I'm not voting Blackstar because of this, so I'm going after Math first. And I think you're wrong about Math, so maybe you should reconsider instead of asking me about other possible scums?
About the last part of your post: that's out of context. Blackstar was saying my vote on jjh was because of momentum and not because I felt he was scum, and I said that I was following NSG read on jjh since the begining and because of the reaction she got from jjh. You're nitpicking to convince yourself that I'm still the better option to lynch today. Me saying "maybe NSG was lucky" is equal to "maybe the case was bad but she got an awful reaction from jjh and that was enough to believe jjh was being scummy", so no, not tmi, not even close. And my god ruru, in that same post I'm saying that I wasn't pushing hard anyone because of having bad IRL days, "as much as I could" is perfectly fine with "not pushing that much", it's still the best I could do at that time.

[pinturicchio]

I'm sheeping people, but that doesn't make me scum. There's a couple of different reasons for that. The main one is that I'm not strongly scumreading anyone. I mentioned earlier that I think there are 4 people who could possibly be scum. I've been having trouble narrowing it down further than that and I keep on flip flopping because of that. Its hard for me to read these people and I could easily see any of them flipping scum. The other reason I've been sheeping people is that things tend to go horribly wrong when I try to take control so I thought I'd just listen to other people for once because they probably know what they're doing. You said I've been "scummy the whole game". How have I been scummy this whole game? I'd love to see some examples. It seems like your scum read on me is mostly based on the fact that you scum read Math and see him defending me. That logic doesn't make any sense to me though. Scum teams usually don't openly defend each other and vote together. It doesn't benefit them at all and just makes people think there's an association between them. I don't buy that you actually believe this

Well I don't care if you buy it or not lol I do believe you're both scum, and yes, you don't want to defend your scumpartners for associations, but if you become a town leader and you protect your partner is perfectly possible and you can pull it off. Mathdino could, I'm sure of that. So "usually don't openly defend each other" doesn't mean that scum will never do it in any game ever. Same with Dino "100% rate of shooting PRs"; this could be Dino's great scumgame to get more range for future games.
Sheeping people is not scum by itself, I think YOU sheeping people has come pretty convenient since you've been under the radar pretty much all the game; sheeping + active = good. sheeping + kinda lurky = oh boy. That's what I meant by "being scummy all game"; if you want an essay on you I can do it, but I'm making a general point, not a post by post case 'cause I'm not pushing you right now.

[pinturicchio]

So I need stuff from you for the other 50% chance:

1.

I'm a VT. Who's scum?

I assume BlackStar going from your reads.

2.

I'm a cop and I actually have an inno on BlackStar. Who's scum?

3.

I need reiteration on your read on ruru and I want your take on ofrhz.

I wasn't there for all of 1859.

More like 65% sure of both being scum, 80% you're scum with someone else, but sure, I can play along with the other 20%.
1. This would be the 20%, but yes, Blackstar would be one, the other would be the worst. He's the other player I've been suspecting long ago, because of interactions that seems off and because NSG being the N1 kill.

2. That would make the worst the best candidate to push, and the other between dave and ofrhz by PoE.

3. ruru is town and you'll have to believe me on that. She's the same town!ruru that played on PYP that wasn't scared of you and my stand on her is exactly the same: the only way ruru is scum in this game is that she's your partner, but I got over that. If you want like an actualization of the read, I don't believe she would push me as scum, 'cause after having a long scumgame together, I would get her in no time.
My take on ofrhz is basically that she will get caught by PoE eventually, so there's no need to solve that slot. I think she's town, but if she's scum, it will be easy to find out after two or more flips.

Give me something in exchange: I'm VT. Who's scum? I assume HitAlt from your reads.

[pinturicchio]

Bring it on. I'd love a chance to point out some lies and misrepresentation.

Do you think I will get extra motivation to do some job on you if you start with this? You're basically burying my case before I even start doing it as I said, I'm not focusing on you, there's no need.

[pinturicchio]

Same with Dino "100% rate of shooting PRs"; this could be Dino's great scumgame to get more range for future games.

I don't think you're understanding.

As scum, I put an incredible amount of effort into ensuring that I shoot a PR every night. This is to the point of metadiving players and their PR games during the 48 hour night to make absolute fucking sure I know who the PRs are. When I can't make up my mind, I shoot confirmed town (I've gotten mocked for thinking shooting Innocent Childs is good play).

Why do I do this?

Because now, when I'm town (and I'm town more than I'm scum), every time a VT dies, I can say "LOL WASN'T ME" and clear myself on D2. I've pulled this argument before in multiple places.
Also because I fundamentally believe shooting PRs is good play.

In other words, I put a shitton of effort into playing well as scum at night, in order to benefit my towngame.

If this is the one scumgame where I've chosen NOT to do this, I've ruined that benefit for all future towngames.
On top of that, I've probably also ruined this game by not shooting any of the 3 PRs. Think about that. We're in 10p and there are 4 clears.
I'm not going to put myself into a losing position in this game on the offchance I survive to 3p with this WIFOMy argument, ESPECIALLY when that fucks over my future towngames.

Doing that won't get me more range for future games. It just messes up one of my "confirm myself as town" tricks.

I don't think your towngames rely on only that, you're one of the best townplayers I've seen on site, so saying that not shooting a PR in only ONE of your scumgames fucks up your future towngames. There would still be a 99% chance that you're not scum because a PR didn't die, what's a 1%? You have plenty of tools to make yourself townread when you're town that covers that 1% that can make much more better your scumgame. What I believe is that this was your best chance to get a better scumrange after loosing your last scumgame in that Newbie game where CJ got you on LyLo.

[pinturicchio]

You're nitpicking to convince yourself that I'm still the better option to lynch today. Me saying "maybe NSG was lucky" is equal to "maybe the case was bad but she got an awful reaction from jjh and that was enough to believe jjh was being scummy", so no, not tmi, not even close.

But you originally said the case was good

That's why I'm wondering if you called it good at first (even though you're later saying it was bad/lucky) because you knew jjh is scum

Also like, I do already think you're scum based on your posting, so I don't really need to nitpick about that

The only thing I'm not convinced on is you shooting nsg. So if you want me to defend you here, you need to convince me that you would never shoot nsg basically

I do think her case was good, I still think it was, and that's why I followed it. That comment was a "even if the case wasn't good", not from my perspective, but from Blackstar's perspective, who was doubting my vote on jjh.

If the decision was on me, I would've shot HWS, no doubt on that, and I think you know that, and that's why your asking about me shooting NSG. Like, outing PRs and shooting them is the pinnacle of my scumgames, 'cause they terrify me. If you want to know why I wouldn't shoot NSG in specific, I wouldn't shoot her if I thought she was VT, but I didn't know that (I thought she was scum at some point). But I do think her scumtells and towntells on me are off, so maybe I would let her alive to have some backup maybe?

[pinturicchio]

Spoiler: @pintu (honestly others don't really have to read this)

How does it benefit me in this or future games to expand my scumrange?

Having a larger scumrange hurts you as a player. People will always be paranoid of you. I in part owe my towngame to the fact that I roll scum so rarely (and got replaced out of 2 scumgames) that my scumgame just never got real practice.

If you're saying that I would use this as an opportunity to show my chops as a scumplayer, sure. That was how I treated that newbie game. Those few times that I do roll scum, it's fun to show off.

But in that case I'd be showing off in terms of my play.
Not in terms of shooting myself in the foot by killing a VT-NSG, leaving all 3 PRs alive (almost guaranteeing the vig gets a 2nd shot and brings us back to evens), initiating a hypoclaim to publicise the 4th conftown,

hypoing an inno on my only scumpartner

, and nagging people to keep their hypoclaims in order to protect the cop.

If I were scum, regardless of my scumpartner, I would consider this a failure. There is literally no player here that I could see myself as scum with, thinking "You know, we really set ourselves up well!"
The damn framer got lynched D1 partially because of me, and claimed the lowest priority PR possible.

So yeah scum-me is showing off my scum chops beautifully in terms of play (my dayplay this game is leagues beyond my scum meta), but every mechanical and high-level strategic decision has been utter shit so far and scum-me should be ashamed.

Yeah Dino but you see, there's a thing called WIFOM... where doing exactly the opposite of what people expect for you to do as scum could be a good reliable thing to do to get a good game at the end. You saying "I would never do this or that as scum" is what pings me as making yourself a better scum player, for future games being able to say "yes, I would do that either as scum or town" to get better scumgames in the future. What I'm saying is, you're not shooting your own foot here as much as you're depicting it, 'cause you have so much more tells as town that losing a bit of % chance as town wouldn't affect you at all in practice.

[pinturicchio]

Also, Pintu, you're never going to convince math that he is scum.
Nobody is so cool they convince someone "Yup, I'm the scum /selfvote".
Maybe you can post him into a corner, but you do that by talking to the rest of us, not arguing at Math.

Anyway:

1. Zor: at that point 845 didn't ping me, but I believe what Dino has tried to do this whole game is like "being the reincarnation" of NSG. NSG died, revealed VT, Dino has been saying loud and clear that it was obvious that NSG was VT and that he has been following NSG' reads the whole game. It's a psichological way to make us believe he's town by making us complete the blank spaces between "NSG confirmed town --> Mathdino confirmed town". So yeah, Mathdino going on jjh when he was being focused by NSG means to me that Dino understood that jjh wasn't having a good game and it was time to get some credit. Timing is important: remember Dino's firsts impressions on jjh? It changed drastically after some time.
About HitAlt: I think that if we flip scum!Dino it basically confirms both me and HitAlt as town. I feel he's likely in the same situation I am, so yeah sure he could be partners with jjh, but so could ofrhz or ruru, but we're not pushing them 'cause they seem to be town. HitAlt doesn't have that much towncred because of his tunneling on D1; same as me, bad D1 ---> push them hard.

You maybe missed my intent.
845 was a condemnation of JJH by Math. Was that distancing? In order for a math theory to be correct, 845 must be either distancing or busing. You didn't really answer me about that.

Double-anyway. so, you think HitAlt is town. Let's move into the land where Math is town, and Blackstar is ???.
Based on your answer to Math, you believe that Blackstar + TW is the scum team. That would put them both on the bus, NSG's arguments about TW+JJH's discussion after 845 being scum theater correct. How does Blackstar tie into this? He was the L-1 vote after being on the HWS wagon. That would mean both scum were busing, the worst early and blackstar late.
This narrative would require that TW early boarded the bus, and instead of also joining that Blackstar waited until it looked inevitable (dave declared he was willing to be the -1 and Blackstar headed him off at the pass). Do you find this world reasonable or unreasonable?

Of course I'm not trying to convince Math that he's scum, but by replying to him he makes more content to be better sorted and to be sorted myself as well, it's a win win.

I don't get the difference you're trying to make about distancing or bussing. Bussing IS distancing in essence, right? So yeah, I do think he was distancing and starting to morph into NSG.

Problem with discussing about Math not being scum and start making sense with other things is complicated, 'cause of course, I'm not that convinced of TW+Blackstar together for things like you said. I think TW is totally capable of bussing a partner to get towncred himself, but I never got why NSG thought that jjh vs tw was scumtheater. I mean, if TW is scum, she was right all along, yes, but that's not the reason why I think TW could be his partner; bussing a partner to "make sense" is much more of a tell than the interaction between jjh and him.
Blackstar vote was insignificant, jjh was going to be on L-1 anyways. I would do the same as his scumpartner, in order to let jjh claim and get a PR. In my story, jjh claiming Jailkeeper could make sense if the scumteam decided that hypoclaiming innos would be enough information to know who the cop is and protect themselves from reads at the same time ('cause if a VT hypoclaims an inno on them, they won't push them in order to make sense, like what happened to me and Blackstar).

[pinturicchio]

I really don't see another lynch happening

Come now, that's a tad reductive.
This is by far the towniest Pintu's posted all game, even if he's doing so under maximum pressure.

Him pushing me still after my claim makes sense coming from either town Dino or scum Dino; I did have a great claim on Tit for Tat, where I was scum and got to L-1, and by AtE I got so much towncred that not only I wasn't the lynch of that day, I got A50, our beloved mod, lynched. I still have dreams of that beautiful moment. But seriously, there's a shitton of difference between this claim and that claim, and Dino should know that.

[pinturicchio]

Spoiler: @pintu (honestly others don't really have to read this)

How does it benefit me in this or future games to expand my scumrange?

Having a larger scumrange hurts you as a player. People will always be paranoid of you. I in part owe my towngame to the fact that I roll scum so rarely (and got replaced out of 2 scumgames) that my scumgame just never got real practice.

If you're saying that I would use this as an opportunity to show my chops as a scumplayer, sure. That was how I treated that newbie game. Those few times that I do roll scum, it's fun to show off.

But in that case I'd be showing off in terms of my play.
Not in terms of shooting myself in the foot by killing a VT-NSG, leaving all 3 PRs alive (almost guaranteeing the vig gets a 2nd shot and brings us back to evens), initiating a hypoclaim to publicise the 4th conftown,

hypoing an inno on my only scumpartner

, and nagging people to keep their hypoclaims in order to protect the cop.

If I were scum, regardless of my scumpartner, I would consider this a failure. There is literally no player here that I could see myself as scum with, thinking "You know, we really set ourselves up well!"
The damn framer got lynched D1 partially because of me, and claimed the lowest priority PR possible.

So yeah scum-me is showing off my scum chops beautifully in terms of play (my dayplay this game is leagues beyond my scum meta), but every mechanical and high-level strategic decision has been utter shit so far and scum-me should be ashamed.

Yeah Dino but you see, there's a thing called WIFOM... where doing exactly the opposite of what people expect for you to do as scum could be a good reliable thing to do to get a good game at the end. You saying "I would never do this or that as scum" is what pings me as making yourself a better scum player, for future games being able to say "yes, I would do that either as scum or town" to get better scumgames in the future. What I'm saying is, you're not shooting your own foot here as much as you're depicting it, 'cause you have so much more tells as town that losing a bit of % chance as town wouldn't affect you at all in practice.

I invite other people to parse this and figure out whether it makes sense.

I understand there's WIFOM.

But it doesn't benefit my future scumgames to expand my scumgame. It hurts it.

Are you suggesting that I shot a VT so I can shoot PRs as scum later on and be like "hey man I've shot VTs before, don't look at me"?

No, what I suggest is that, by increasing the things you could do either as scum or town, you get better scumgames. Let's say there are 10 parameters for determine a player's playstyle. Let's say one of the parameters is "shooting VTs" in your case. As you say, shooting a VT is something you wouldn't do as scum, so your towngame gets a boost whenever a VT is shot. But if in all of your 10 parameters you work in favour of boosting your towngames, then your scum playstyle gets reduced to so little ways of playing that you will eventually get caught everytime at the end. What I'm implying is that loosening one of the 10 restrictions you applied into your 10 parameters, you don't affect that much your towngames in comparison to the boost you get at getting new tools for playing scum. You can do that until the marginal cost of increasing a bit more your scumgames is zero, where you will reach a perfect balance between scumplay and townplay. But of course, we know that you will have much more towngames than scumgames, so you can apply that restriction and yes, you will want to have much more towntells that you don't want to fake as scum, but not everything.

[pinturicchio]

This is by far the towniest Pintu's posted all game, even if he's doing so under maximum pressure.

Stop it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've seen scum-pintu literally request to get vigged and then start a massive end-of-day discussion when he was at maximum pressure.

Scum-pintu is townier under pressure. I'll accept a HitAlt lynch (even though I think he's definitely townier), but we're not pulling more claims.

As I said one post over this one (2154), don't you see any differences between this and Tit for Tat? My reaction there was pure AtE. You can ask the worst how was our last Newbie together; I was at maximum pressure there too, and my reaction was much more like this one. You have seen only one face of me working under pressure and using a fallacy assuming that I don't get townier under pressure when I'm town too. Pintu under pressure, either as scum or town, gets townier, and I have proof for both.

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos look 2158, there's the flaw.

[pinturicchio]

Why would I feel like I need to boost my future scumgames...?

You're seriously saying that I made a suboptimal play (shooting VT NSG) for meta reasons so I have a sliver more of a chance to win

future scumgames

over this one?

You think I'd fuck over my teammates just to expand my range for later on?

Never said you fucked up this game to win future games, I think you're both getting a solid scumgame here and by that getting better scumgames in the future too.

[pinturicchio]

ofrhz dear I didn't say anything of what you said, you just put information of what happened during the day, not what I said. Also, as I said before, having a perfect record doesn't mean that he KNOWS he is right, so why not using the rolecop if they have one? If you think "this logic still doesn't make much sense" that's up to you.

I already stated why I think I was an easy mislynch.

And already said why I could've claimed cop. "too many people picked up on the inconsistency" when the only one who pointed it out was ruru? When I gave my readlist people didn't notice it and I kept going with the inno thing after that readlist; if it was that obvious, Mathdino would've said that I claimed VT by saying Blackstar was null, so no, even if there was an inconsistency, I played it along to keep the hypo inno thing as long as I could.

[pinturicchio]

@pintu: I didn't out your inconsistency because I was really hoping you would fakeclaim cop.

Well I call bullshit on that. Why didn't you do that with the other two players who made the inconsistency?

[pinturicchio]

pedit: people who noticed the inconsistency in your hypo inno weren't going to point it out because that would've been an anti-town thing to do

I insist: Dino pointed out two other players who were inconsistent.

[pinturicchio]

also not gonna lie
i didn't actually notice you fuck up your hypoclaim
i think TW was the one who noticed it and i just didn't comment
but correct me if i'm wrong

again, big difference between voting and pushing your hypo-inno

and forgetting your hypoinno for a single reads list

I think TW pointed out HitAlt's inconsistency, but HitAlt already said that his hypoclaim was bad

[pinturicchio]

You should be able to meta TR me off team mafia plus other games we've been town together. No research should be necessary.
VOTE: Mathdino

That's a fuck you death tunnel btw.

I know that probably sounds weird... Example Mathdino is a medium town but it's a weak read. HitAlt and BlackStar are null and weak reads, etc.

davesaz (strong duh - the role PM can't be wrong)
HeWhoSwims - un-cc'd PR, would be weak read without that.

Zoronos (strong)
ruru (medium)
Mathdino (weak)

My hypoclaim was also bad. I think MathDino might actually be scum here.

notice the difference

Ok yes we're on the same page, was looking at the same. HitAlt's "inconsistency" is significantly different; it's not an inconsistency at all since he pointed out it was bad, so it was a VT claim basically. But I don't see the difference between davesaz' inconsistency and mine; dave voted you after hypoclaiming an inno on you, but he didn't made an explicit statement about his hypoclaim like HitAlt did.

[pinturicchio]

Well it's clear that y'all felt to Mathdino's trap, so I'll give you a present: VOTE: Pinturicchio

Please, quicklynch the dinosaur tomorrow and don't let him go on with this bullshit. There will be no cop clear tomorrow, it's pretty obvious he/she will die, so just lynch Dino, for the love of god.

[pinturicchio]

I'm not L1ing because like anyone could quickhammer, including you, probably without being confirmed scum

And it seems like poor form to let the day end without hws regardless of how I personally feel about it

I am at L-1 right now, and sure, if you want to wait for HWS that's fine, but I think the game is already solved

[pinturicchio]

I'm not shorting my life, YOU shorted my life with your bullshit, don't try to make this look like it's not your responsability.

[pinturicchio]

does it matter though

if TW isn't sorted mechanically tomorrow we can just ask him then

pintu's still getting lynched regardless

he's not coming back from that self-vote

Hello there

[pinturicchio]

fwiw I value a cop check on ofrhz highest atm

Mathdino is killing the cop tonight, don't you get it

[pinturicchio]

ruru I'm so proud of you, it's been a long way since Newbie 1859 where you made us lose the game, now look at you, catching your ex partner
It was fun, but I blame myself for my D1, I think I could've been read as town if I didn't have IRL problems at that time.
Duckling I really wanted to have more fun in thread with you but I couldn't

By the way guys, I said it sometimes before, but this is my last game until who knows when! It has been great playing with all of you, I love challenges, and this place sure provides them! Hope to see you around!