Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Zoronos

This is serious though

Disagree, 12 seems pretty at ease to me.

[Something_Smart]

How am I supposed to towntell now

You found a pretty good way

[Something_Smart]

His posts are too long

We're not in RVS anymore...

[Something_Smart]

His posts are too long

We're not in RVS anymore...

It feels like he's trying too hard even though nothing has happened

This is playstyle.

HURT: Cop: YES, JK: NO, Vig: YES

[Something_Smart]

I'm not 100% on her currently, sorry to say

[Something_Smart]

Is there ever an RVS wagon that ISN'T low info?

[Something_Smart]

Thanks, genius.

[Something_Smart]

Orfcz+duck are scum btw.
More certain of the duck.

VOTE: the worse

"welp i'm hitalt" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Something_Smart]

Lol. It looks like scum buddying up to town. Something I do a lot as scum is try to buddy up to people who are very strongly scum reading me. This reminds me of that. Also I don't understand why being aggressive would make him town. It seems like a weird reason to town read someone

If you think THAT'S a weird reason you're gonna LOVE me townreading ofrhz for that post.

[Something_Smart]

Why do you townread him for that?

Because they're not concerned in the slightest about being voted to the point of being flippant about it, and they are actually trying to turn it around into something positive.

It's an argument that probably wouldn't occur to most people as scum.

[Something_Smart]

"welp i'm hitalt" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

What does this mean?

It's a reference to RC who often is often super confident (and rightfully so) and uses the phrase "welp I'm RC" to explain why he's so confident.

Unless you're one of a handful of players (and you almost certainly aren't), you don't get to be that confident without explaining yourself.

[Something_Smart]

V/LA until Tuesday

[Something_Smart]

{nsg}
{BlackStar, ruru}
{davesaz, Zoronos}
{HeWhoSwims, pinturicchio}
{Mathdino, the worst, HitAlt}
{ofrhz, jjh927, Something_Smart}

strangely enough, despite the positioning i feel like if i'm wrong on any one of these it'd be within the {davesaz, zoronos} group.

How do you have anything AI on me?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Something_Smart

How do you have anything AI on me?

[Something_Smart]

Well, I'd be skeptical of ANY strong read on me, not just a scumread.

I don't believe that a strong scumread on me is questionable because I'm obviously town-- if that were the case, I'd write something closer to the latter. Instead, I believe that a strong scumread on me is questionable because I haven't given enough content to be readable that confidently, in which case my guilt or innocence is actually irrelevant.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, it is. But that's because it's consistent with how I think, independent of the color of my role PM

[Something_Smart]

Hmm

What are your current reads?

Town feelings on ofrhz and HitAlt, smaller ones on you and Zoronos.
Slightest of scumleans on nsg and BlackStar, though I trust Mathdino to read nsg

eventually

and BlackStar is usually scummy from what I recall of him. (Though the last time I thought he felt bad I was right.)

Also... if you think my activity is indicative of anything other than me playing Settlers of Catan with my brother, you'd be wrong.

[Something_Smart]

The fact that she has me so low in the readlist. It feels like she was looking for people to put there, at least until I find out if there was any specific reason for it.

[Something_Smart]

You did other things that were towny.

[Something_Smart]

50, starting the setup discussion with the hurt tags, making a big-text vote on ofrhz and then immediately pivoting to BlackStar.

[Something_Smart]

In response to ruru, of course.

[Something_Smart]

What does it put me at?

[Something_Smart]

"not town yet"

That's a weird category to have as the lowest... it kind of implies that you intend for everyone to become a townread of some degree, which would cheapen them to the point of being worthless.

In any event, I don't scumread you anymore, though I would suggest that you take a little different of an approach to tier-based readlists. (Especially since with so many tiers it's natural to assume that the bottom few are scumreads, and the bottom one at least decently strong.)

i'm interested in your reaction this game as compared to mini normal 2005.

why are you confused / upset at your position now when you think you haven't done anything AI yet when in mini normal 2005 you were confident you were already playing to your towngame?

I don't think what I've done so far has been so far out of my scumrange that I'd expect people not significantly familiar with me to recognize it. I engaged more early on in that game than I have so far in this one.

[Something_Smart]

unless you just mean to improve the clarity for other people, in which case i guess you might be right - i seem to get questioned about it more often than i would expect.

Well, it sounds like they're kind of sort of PoE scumreads but probably closer to nullreads. In which case yeah, it's almost never a bad idea to be more clear about something (unless it's for reaction purposes).

what changed your read on me?

Your clarification on the way that you're forming reads. Because if you're primarily looking for reasons to townread people, then it makes a whole lot more sense why you haven't found anything on me yet.

[Something_Smart]

Would you consider that a scumread on me is valid until proven otherwise, or are there specific things that lead you to consider it valid?

[Something_Smart]

Well, my issue in that case would fall with some of the other reads, but not with the one on me. I would expect at least one out of ten townreads to be wrong whether or not I was one of them, so I don't see it as more of a problem that I'm not among them. Since a PoE scumread on day one of a 13-player game can't be a scumread with any real strength to it anyway.

Also there's a reason that I'm hesitant to share scumreads early. I use phrasing like "slightest of scumreads" for a reason, and then people completely ignore it and get confused about why my reads are changing so easily.

[Something_Smart]

Like why is it expected for others to find your posting to "lack town", starting with the assumption that you're a town player and that you are intentionally making posts in a mafia game

Because I hadn't posted much? I don't think anyone here (except maybe Mathdino) knows me well enough to form a valid townread from those posts.

[Something_Smart]

Saturn, pixellated map, Fix-it Felix, Foo Fighters album cover, Saturn again.

Not sure what you might be referring to.

[Something_Smart]

Do you often get mislynched d1?

Used to happen all the time.

Don't think I've been mislynched D1 in a while though.

[Something_Smart]

The amusing thing is, Ruby Red was basically the antithesis of my entire mafia theory, and nsg's ideas line up very closely with mine

[Something_Smart]

Honestly, I'm not sure who could be ohfrz's partner of he flips scum so I'm just trying to spark some discussion

I kinda townread this post

How come?

[Something_Smart]

I'm around as well if anyone wants to play tic tac toe or smthn

Want to talk a bit about BlackStar? How do you feel regarding him at the moment?

[Something_Smart]

I'm around as well if anyone wants to play tic tac toe or smthn

Want to talk a bit about BlackStar? How do you feel regarding him at the moment?

I actually like him. I thought he was kinda floating by earlier in the phase but much more comfortable he's actually playing the game rn

Leaning town basically.


Where are u at with Bstar?

I really don't know, because he doesn't feel particularly real but I don't know if that's just how he plays.

It sounds like your read is based primarily on effort though which is worrying. Is there anything specific that you'd call "playing the game" that's more likely to come from town than from scum?

[Something_Smart]

his thought process checks out to me off the top of my head.

Is this something you know him to be incapable of faking as scum?

Because in my experience scum usually have not had trouble making thought processes that make sense if you don't think about them that hard.

[Something_Smart]

why the nitpick bro?

How's it a nitpick? A valid reason why someone is towny has to explain why the action is more likely to come from town than from scum. If you haven't done that you haven't given a reason at all.

[Something_Smart]

Also Math I'm not intentionally lowering my content level. It's summer and I have a job and I'm busier than during the rest of the year. And I was away last weekend and will be again this weekend but I'll get in what I can during the week.

[Something_Smart]

So let's start here:
Why are people townreading him?

232

[Something_Smart]

I interpreted this to mean that you're intentionally withholding some of your content.

I'm withholding things that I COULD be saying because I think they're more likely noise than signal.
But I always do that. (Or at least I try!)

[Something_Smart]

I don't think town avoids finding scum like you've been doing

I lol'd

[Something_Smart]

I noticed that post too, but I don't think that's an actual scum slip

What was the point of mentioning it then?

[Something_Smart]

Like, why was it necessary to point out that you noticed it if you then don't think it means anything?

[Something_Smart]

You could have just said "I don't think that's an actual scum slip".

The first part just feels weird. It feels like something you would say if you're trying to look like you're thinking critically-- like you're making sure not to miss out on getting credit for noticing something.

[Something_Smart]

Since you know so much, what's my read on you?

[Something_Smart]

I am being passive, there's nothing aggressive about it.

It's a weak scumlean, basically the same as it was before, so saying I'm "desperate to find a reason to scumread you" makes practically no sense. I too just post whatever, and I posted what came to mind when I read it... but you seemed eager to shut down any semblance of a push that I might have wanted to make.

And the line "you should focus your efforts on people who are actually scum" is silly. If I could focus my efforts solely on scum I wouldn't have to focus any efforts at all. Not to mention that I am most in my element when I am focusing my efforts on identifying town... once more it sounds like a cheap line to keep me off your back.

You'll notice that I'm using the words "seemed" and "sounds". I'm using this phrasing for a reason. This is how you're coming across, at least to me; it doesn't mean that's what you intended. If it's not... I want you to explain to me what you were actually doing and why you think I misinterpreted it. That's how TvT's get shut down.

[Something_Smart]

It felt obvious to me that you suspected me and felt like I had ulterior motives for my post and it was annoying that you didn't just say it outright. I remembered you dancing around the fact that you suspected me earlier, but I thought you did it more times than you actually had. So that combined with the fact that you're wrong made it feel like you were coming up with dumb reasons to suspect me. And I already explained what I was doing.

I don't doubt any of this, but the point of my questions wasn't to push a scumread on you nor was it indicating that I did scumread you. The point was to gain a little insight into why you might have said what you did in order to read you better.

I'm trying to engage with YOU. If I were set on pushing a scumread on you, I'd be engaging others in trying to change their read on you.

Also... if you thought I was coming up with silly reasons to push a scumread on you, what reasons did you think I had for doing that?

[Something_Smart]

Why is SS only honorable mention

Why should I be more than that?

[Something_Smart]

Pintu's dave vote was bad yeah, but the reasoning looked like he really believed it and so it strikes me more as town-bad than scum-bad.

[Something_Smart]

Pintu's: your logic is based almost entirely on how scumleaning someone lynchbaity is scummy, which is invalid because town scumlean lynchbait all the time.

[Something_Smart]

That should be "Pintu:"
Thanks autocorrect

[Something_Smart]

My logic is based on how he hasn't said absolutely nothing about me and he drops the bomb saying I was already scummy before IRL reasons, in order to get a vote on me without repercussions. It's not the same of what you're saying.

He didn't vote you though...

Also do you think town are less likely to suddenly out a read like that than scum are? Because town are more likely to capriciously change reads whereas scum, if something like this was planned out, could easily have mentioned it earlier so it didn't look as weird.

[Something_Smart]

My logic is based on how he hasn't said absolutely nothing about me and he drops the bomb saying I was already scummy before IRL reasons, in order to get a vote on me without repercussions. It's not the same of what you're saying.

He didn't vote you though...

Also do you think town are less likely to suddenly out a read like that than scum are? Because town are more likely to capriciously change reads whereas scum, if something like this was planned out, could easily have mentioned it earlier so it didn't look as weird.

Yes, he didn't vote me, I said that too in my vote post, and that's another reason I'm pushing him; why voting HWS and not me? For me, it felt like the time was not right for voting me since there's no one pushing me and there were others talking about HWS. Call me crazy but it felt like inception

That's what I'm getting at about scumleans. A scumlean is literally when you scumread someone but not enough to vote, and town have those just as much as scum do...

(It could even be for the reason you described! Sometimes town will pragmatically vote the player among their scumreads that they most expect a wagon to develop on. I know it sounds scummy but town players do it.)

[Something_Smart]

Fair enough, he does have you in the lowest category, though he also says that "gaps between categories are pretty small". But even then, you aren't his ONLY scumread; what's special about you that makes it the proper move as town to vote you over HWS?

If he had voted you instead, someone could have equally argued that THAT vote came out the blue and that he was keeping his options open on HWS. Why was the read on you so fundamentally different from the read on HWS?

[Something_Smart]

i forget exactly where it was but i read a jjh/worst interaction that felt like theater

worth looking at perhaps.

Preflip associatives lead to mislynches devoid of information...

I think town!pintu would have realized this and not voted on davesaz so quickly.

This a meta read? If so, what's the key difference between scum!pintu and town!pintu that backs this up?
If not, what makes you confident that this is true?

[Something_Smart]

He seems to be holding back, not committing to any scumreads nor rocking the boat until there is something that suits his purposes.

This pretty much describes me too, what's the difference?

[Something_Smart]

I know why I'm town this game but I don't think it's within your Mathdino reading range to actually see it
So I'm very confused

Even assuming he hasn't successfully identified a single alignment-indicative thing for you in this game, his read on you over a large number of games would probably fall in a normal distribution meaning that he'd sometimes come up with such a read that has no basis in fact.

More likely though, if you're town, it's some combination of valid tells and the right side of the bell curve.

[Something_Smart]

I definitely am, but you didn't say anything about sorting in 1008. You said that he's not committing to scumreads and not drawing attention to himself. If I'm also doing those things but you think I'm town, do you really think they're scum indicative?

Based on your response to me, it sounds like the REAL reason you scumread him is that you don't think he's trying to sort people. Is that accurate, and if so, what gives you that impression?

[Something_Smart]

V/LA until Monday

[Something_Smart]

Already at this point I feel like one of these wagons has to be on scum

Why?

[Something_Smart]

yeah nah HitAlt lacks an ounce of nuance. this is clearly a fake tunnel.

That actually means it's probably a real tunnel.

[Something_Smart]

once everyone has voted, people will move their votes naturally

But not otherwise?

[Something_Smart]

How come?

[Something_Smart]

Is that a term here?
I don't know the corresponding jargon you guys use for 'creating a new train and suddenly lynching someone who was not previously among leading lynch candidates'. The forum I used to play on referred to that phenomenon as 'going to narnia'.

Flashwagon or quickwagon, usually. Deadline wagon if this occurs as a result of an impending deadline.

I've also heard the term "Chinese fire drill" but I don't think that one's too common.

Why do you think asking pointless questions is scum indicative?

[Something_Smart]

Do you think I'm not asking sorting questions?

[Something_Smart]

Maybe your definition of a sorting question is different from mine. What do you consider to be a sorting question?

[Something_Smart]

Zoronos:
I'll object to your (1) on the basis that not every sorting question will get an alignment indicative answer, but I think a better version is to say that a sorting question is one that may lead to a read. And I haven't been sharing my reads because I don't really see a reason to talk that much about my townreads, and I don't feel like my scumreads are better than random this game.
(2) is tough because very few questions are as simple as "if he answers this way he's town, if he answers that way he's scum". So yes. A sorting question has to be based on an alignment indicating factor-- "what's your favorite color" will never be a sorting question, even if they answer red But for me, there's really only one alignment indicating factor: whether thoughts are genuine or faked.
My sorting questions are predicated on the difference between what scum sometimes think a townie would do and what a townie would actually do. In asking questions, I'm looking for an answer that will help widen that gap, so that scum are more likely to respond in a way that doesn't look quite right.

[Something_Smart]

No CC and will respond to Zoronos soon.

Glad we didn't out a useful PR.

[Something_Smart]

My reads are basically:
HitAlt, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, and Zoronos are bad lynches because I townread them.
jjh is obviously a bad lynch barring a counterclaim.
Mathdino, davesaz and northsidegal are bad lynches because I haven't seen anything especially bad from them and they should be easier to sort later in the game.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.

[Something_Smart]

Pintu's dave vote was bad yeah, but the reasoning looked like he really believed it and so it strikes me more as town-bad than scum-bad.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.

This is basically the only thing you've said about me in the thread and now I'm one of your preferred lynches? You have done NOTHING to sort ANYONE in this game and your readlist is awful to say it as nice as I can.

VOTE: Something_Smart

I don't scumread you. I don't want to start a wagon on you. But I don't want to PREVENT a wagon on you, and I'd want to prevent a wagon on the nine people not in that group.

Hence why you are in it.

Which of my townreads do you disagree with and/or want me to explain?

[Something_Smart]

Why is nsg is some weird null area of your readslist when she can basically only be scum with the dinosaur

Based on experience I don't trust Math to read nsg early on, but I do trust him to read her eventually. And because of this, at least until Math dies, I don't have to (nor do I think I can) read her myself.

[Something_Smart]

Oh, and I don't CC either

As much as it can be fun for a mod to banter with the players, I'd recommend that you don't do stuff like this because it's really hard to know for sure whether you're giving anything away.

For the same reason, you shouldn't respond to this, but I just thought I'd give my opinion from my experience modding

[Something_Smart]

Why?

What was this referring to?

[Something_Smart]

and then there's SS who, even if you think it was an OMGUS vote, I do think that he has done little to nothing, basically I think your point on him was pretty good. The timing was bad 'cause he was pushing me, but I think pushing me is something scum would like to do right now that jjh claimed, so it's a fair read too

Also, I hate to say this, but... have I pushed a single thing all game?

[Something_Smart]

For all of it? Gonna be brief for each one, but sure.

HitAlt seems genuine. Playing in an aggressive and self-confident manner that most people don't take as scum, especially if they're hiding behind an alt to escape meta tells.
The worst softed PR. Wasn't gonna bring it up but somebody else already did. Makes sense both as a real PR and as a VT trying to draw the kill.
Ruru I know I've explained before. Barring meta of her scumgame being similar, she has a very stream-of-consciousy and spontaneous playstyle that is way more often than not town genuinely figuring things out.
BlackStar has recently shown what I interpret as real solving effort. 1149 and 1200 in particular seemed very much like town who actually is trying to figure out what to do rather than scum pushing an agenda.
I don't have extensive experience, but you (Zoronos) seem like the type to play a very mechanical and formulaic scumgame similar to how mine sometimes is, but I haven't seen much that feels mechanical or fake and your thought processes seem about as comprehensible and as natural as they were in the last game.

jjh... I shouldn't have to explain.

Mathdino is tough to read without flips but as the game goes on his ulterior motives, if any, usually become more apparent.
Davesaz has been lynchbait in almost every game I've played with him. Best sorted with flips and also possibly with the help of PR's.
Northsidegal can be apparently soulread by Mathdino, given enough time. Definitely worth giving him the time to do that.

Taking the playerlist and subtracting the people above leaves pintu, HWS, and ofrhz. A group on which I haven't had any feelings strong enough to put them in one of the above categories.

[Something_Smart]

I have not totally read past the jjh claim but this day phase is fucking hilarious

Also is this just something he does as scum

Pretty sure as scum he would try to draw out an actually useful PR.

It's moot though, since if he is counterclaimed it obviously makes him scum because no scum would ever sacrifice themself to CC that.

[Something_Smart]

Taking the playerlist and subtracting the people above leaves pintu, HWS, and ofrhz. A group on which I haven't had any feelings strong enough to put them in one of the above categories.

I have a town feeling on ofhrz though I guess that could be wrong but I like it.
I have a town lean on HWS.

So, where does that leave us?

Ostensibly, with pintu.

That's probably not a good idea though. Someone with meta on him would be extremely helpful; 1273 does look pretty genuine but I think I got the impression from somewhere that he's good at imitating genuineness as scum.

Given a compelling argument, it is possible that any of my townreads could reverse. Also, I might not completely oppose a davesaz lynch, though without a strong case it would probably boil down to a policy lynch on a hard-to-read player, which would be quite rude.

What is it that makes you think HWS is town? Of the three major wagons, he's gotten the least attention.

[Something_Smart]

Why is scum more likely to carry out a largely ineffective and attention-drawing push than town is?

[Something_Smart]

If we get a JK flip vig should shoot someone else other than confscum.

[Something_Smart]

Any reason you're not voting jjh or me, Smart?

Because several people have mentioned reasons not to end the day yet.

[Something_Smart]

Nice job guys.

...Although I will say Math, I'm surprised you didn't immediately guess ruru was the vig after I got shot. (And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been lynched D2 because she was the only one to seriously suspect me, but I would have hypo-inno'd pintu so there's that )

[Something_Smart]

^Seconded. Thanks for modding A50!

[Something_Smart]

Most of those points do make sense, and my death probably benefitted town as I would have tried to shut down a pintu wagon (though I would also probably have pushed the worst). Not hitting the doc save was very important and you making yourself obvious, which I complained about in the dead thread, wasn't as big of a deal because scum would be better off focusing on the cop.

Although I do object to the assumption that I would have continued to not do much and would have needed to be policy lynched, because I work better with flips and I was V/LA for two consecutive weekends