Open 729 - Cul de Sac!

Mathdino · Post Post #725 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:27 pm

In post 721, northsidegal wrote:partition mafia.

You weren't the only one being lynched there

Plus there were 3 scum controlling the board

northsidegal · Post Post #726 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:34 pm

In post 725, Mathdino wrote:
In post 721, northsidegal wrote:partition mafia.
You weren't the only one being lynched there

Plus there were 3 scum controlling the board

everyone thought wisdom was town, it was a lynch solely on me.

Scioness Sajj · Post Post #727 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:43 pm

In post 650, northsidegal wrote:to continue my "reasons where i'm coming from in scioness being scum", it doesn't seem to me that she has any genuine convictions in scumreads. there's people she "would vote", but nobody that it seems like she really thinks is a great vote and wants to convince other people on.

sorry i don't walk into the games with designed lynches unless i rep in. although i sure have some people this game that I don't want to lynch but it apparently doesn't matter.

for example, let's look at the line "don't understand people townreading seal". luckily, a similar situation happened in Newbie 1867 where scioness was scumreading a person that someone else was townreading. in that game, Ircher had Harambey as town along with a list of posts that he felt were towny or scummy, but without reasoning. people asked him to provide reasoning in general, but he refused and wanted people to ask him to provide reasoning on specific posts. (if you'd like to read the full context for yourself i recommend starting here

now, instead of asking ircher for reasoning on specific posts, scioness took the initiative and just started talking about the posts that he noted, giving
her own
take on them:
Spoiler: apparently i can't spoiler spoilers quotes inside are a mess
In post 473, Scioness Sajj wrote:Ircher, I'm here! Alright, so I have decided to give me thoughts about the posts that stood up to both of us and you can agree/disagree give your own? I guess that's the best approach to this.

Spoiler:
Spoiler: post 35, Harambey180
In post 35, Harambey180 wrote:
In post 34, Nachomamma8 wrote:
Vote: Harambey180

I think the fact that he hasn't posted yet is strange. He's been active onsite for a while after the L-1 wagon formed, and I think that it's likelier that he is scum who is avoiding posting for a little while in the hopes that what's mostly just a baseless wagon will die out than town who saw the wagon form and had nothing to say/could find nothing to address.

Other fairly equivalent votes I could see myself making are Alciel and creppy. I don't believe that either have them have done more than the bare minimum to play the game, which is sometimes a sign of scum who is uncomfortable.
The wagon was mostly formed thanks to RVS so I didn't have much to defend against.
Besides, wagons this early on hardly ever get said person lynched.

Why would I try to 'defend' myself against a wagon this early on? By staying silent I also won't give scum more information / opportunities to throw more shade in me. And the more I talk, the more I'm putting myself in a losing position based on the past. Because of how I verbalize things, I guess.
What bothers me about this posts is the use of 'defend' and how much Harambey shrug his lack of response off with pro-town motivation.
Nachomamma's post resolves around lack of reaction but Harambey answer is about defending himself. I understand '
The wagon was mostly formed thanks to RVS so I didn't have much to defend against. Besides, wagons this early on hardly ever get said person lynched.
' as him saying that he couldn't defend himself because there weren't any arguments against him and the wagon wasn't serious anyway. My conclusion is that he was concerned with overreacting and being lynched because of that and he sort of admits to it with the past experience part. That's okay, it's a reaction based on his experience.
But he put an emphasis on the thing being just an RVS wagon, which pings me because i believe it comes from his need to actually defend himself. Defense by trying to appear that he doesn't care.
The argument about staying silent so he won't give scum more info is pretty bad. Town needs to talk to get anything done and experience scum will always find something they can exploit. You can avoid this, scum will find a way to push if they want. I don't really understand why he had those thoughts when he is also trying to shrug the rvs as not important?

Plus, I agree that ofrhz jumped the gun here and should have waited longer to see how/if Harambey actually reacts to naked L-1. We don't know if Harambey saw the l-1 vote when it was posted or just got to the thread after he was at l-2. Still, I think it warranted a reaction as either alignment and was an opportunity to start a discussion.

Spoiler: post 45, Harambey180
In post 45, Harambey180 wrote:
In post 44, Alciel wrote:
In post 39, Nachomamma8 wrote:"He didn't state a reason, so I voted for him" - why do you have a policy of voting people who don't state reasons?
"Didn't state mine since no one really asked him why for his vote" - I don't understand what other people's reactions to him has to do with how you approach him here; it seems a bit backwards to me. Like, I could see if you were voting for someone and didn't feel like stating reasons because they've already been said but I don't understanding voting someone and NOT giving reasons because no one else seemed to see or care about the same thing you did. Help me out?
His vote didn't have a reason compared to others that at least posted something though nothing concrete, it's my first game and I'm still testing the waters, I'm also waiting if someone would question my lack of reasoning since I don't know if not giving reasoning is that common or not.
Giving (good) reasoning will often make others trust you more than when you don't give any reasoning at all.
My vote was a random vote as we were in RVS, which stands for Random Voting Stage. In my opinion, random votes don't necessarily need reasoning. I mean, it's random, what would a reasoning be for a random vote?
Most people say something else like 'Hello everyone!' or a 'joke reasoning' as to why their random voted player should get more votes. Eventually there will be one player that has the most votes at some point. That person will then usually speak up so that the players have something to discuss about and over time, people will form reads. Then players will argue about each others' reads and posts and get someone lynched. This all started with the random voting stage.

I was that 'player' this time that got the most votes. So I had to speak to persuade people I'm a Townie (which, in fact, I am) and vote elsewhere.
At this point, most players will start to discuss my recent posts, and probably the ones of Nachomamma and I guess yours too.

I don't know how familiar you are with mafia games so I approached you here as if you're pretty new to the game. I hope this is okay as how it is.
I don't understand why you have got town vibes from this post. It's mostly game mechanics explaining post so that's nai to me. The only thing that stands out to me is the bolded part and I'm particularly fond of, the part in brackets, but not really scum read on its own.

Spoiler: post 210, Harambey180
In post 210, Harambey180 wrote:Ircher's post 202 is pretty much a compilation of '28 things that you guys could have done better'. I like the effort you put into making such a long post consisting of 28 things you think about, but it's not quite my style.

Also, because it's a long post, it is probably a good idea to bold some parts like questions. I read about half of it because I don't want to spend too much time on this game and I have other things to do as well. If you asked me questions, then I missed them and please repeat them for me.

Your readslist is still pretty good though. It's not the type of readslist that I'm used to see but I can see you really thought well about your reads. I'm still not really fond about, how to say this, what you want with your posts. I can't really think of a way to say this that you will understand what I'm trying to say, but whatever.

Finally, when I saw that 'town leader' thing you said about me in your read on me, I remembered an idea I had earlier. I thought it would be a good idea if we had someone as a 'team leader' that coordinates everything that happens. Probably two people, because there's a chance that if we assigned this 'task' to one person, that person could be scum. If you picked two people that seem to absolutely disagree with eachother then the odds of both being scum is about 0 percent, so then you'd have at least one Townie in the team leader group. I don't know what you guys think...??

Should we need one or two people as team leader(s) to coordinate everything that happens in this game?
Things like: making sure that one discussion doesn't go out of hand, let people take turns, make sure that two topics aren't discussed at the same time (because that's less efficient imo). That's what I'm thinking of rn.
As we both were getting scum vibes from this post and I'm tired tell me first for what you are scumreading this one and I will elaborate tomorrow.

basic differences between situation mentioned above and this game:
a). i repped in and there was already content
b). i was townreading Ircher of the ate (he was unwilling to elaborate) and he was willing to talk to me also provided things to talk about.
+ i have promissed myself that I would talk to him but it took me about two days or so when i was posted other content becuase i'm lazy like that.

Spoiler: me asking ircher if he will talk

Spoiler: post tht already in itself has some information

i find it hard to believe that the same person who went through all this trouble and just got all of her thoughts out there to talk to someone about a read they disagreed on would just leave things at "i don't understand why people are townreading this person". and it's not just that one post that i quoted at the top from this game that i feel shows the difference - i just don't many posts at all that resemble the one right above.

i'll be upfront in that it's not as if
no
posts of that nature exist in her ISO: i found one, but i think focusing on the simple presence makes less sense than focusing on the depth and frequency of them.

okay now the misreps or just things that didn't suit nsg's narrative:
a). I didn't talk about Harambey only, I have talked about all posts we had in common
b). in theory, nsg can't know for /sure/ but that game i have made notes when i was catching up and I mentioned having them and based my interactions on them
c). the game was slow but again had a content from previous day, before i repped in
d). Ircher was generally producing walls and was willing to talk to me

additional: in my first game here, as scum i was so bored on waiting for people to post i have iso'ed in detail three players in a 50 pages game. nsg was in that game, she should know that my activity is nai. i can produce content as both alignments.

okay so to sum it up - NSG here pushes actually pretty surface level read that looks super busy but I don't believe is comparable. here she pushes things like my activity or lack of engagement but she doesn't compare them to how much content is in this game or how many people are actually willing to talk

Spoiler: all the times i was shut down or ignored in this game

again, not blaming everybody but i believe anybody that was isoing me this game (or was just reading it) and had to compare it to my other game would realize that the dynamics and activity here is different.

note that NSG has been in all my first 4 games and have repeatedly claimed that she wants to develop a soul read on me. she even read scum pt from my first game that was over 30+ pages long and i was really open there about how i felt about the game. for some reason in this game she decided to read me based on some universal scumtells even though she had all my meta and should be aware that those things don't really apply (reason why she probably misread me terribly in my first game). That's why I have ask about it below:

In post 273, Scioness Sajj wrote:I mean you kicked the door open and slapped a vote on me. That's reads as confident to me,
assuming you do care about correctly reading me.

I don't think your tone is particularly confident not like Math's.

In post 274, northsidegal wrote:-shrug-

originally i was kind of coming around to townreading the "i'm surprised you're scumreading me" but then i realized that for this kind of situation where there's someone with a track record of reading someone else correctly there's really not many other ways to respond, and i've seen the exact same thing before from scum.

she ignored the part about correctly reading me and instead written down a progression that i don't actually believe happened. at first, i thought that she had a wrong impression and would reconsider but i never really happened.

Myloninja13 · Post Post #728 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:52 pm

VOTE: scioness

Scioness Sajj · Post Post #729 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:00 pm

nsg claims that she has been correct about me before (which is true, 2 out of 3 games) reading me of how she thinks i approach the games (meta i guess) or tone. one time she has asked me about my thoughts she has took it back(?), she has also shifted focus (which may have nothing to do with how she reads me), her examples meta comparison from the other games are wrong (I believe I have proven that were either not correct or really shallow/misinterpreted) and they were pretty generic scumtells, i think they should be more personalized considering how much experience she has with me (all of it). she can keep saying that she did this or that to prove that she actually had some doubt on my slot this game but she never actually stated that - she did use to state her doubts about my slot if she had any.

Scioness Sajj · Post Post #730 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:02 pm

In post 728, Myloninja13 wrote:VOTE: scioness

you don't have anything to say considering how much has happened?

Scioness Sajj · Post Post #731 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:06 pm

last post i swear. we flip me today and I hope you will read 727 and this post overnight and decide tomorrow what to do.

Spoiler: how to read nsg post that someone made for me but i dont really know how to use

In post 1007, Nachomamma8 wrote:
NSG Meta Tell #1:

*Out of 36 completed town games, NSG has only been mislynched three times, which is an excellent record. I would argue that most people who are difficult to mislynch are the types of people who dig their heels in and fight hard when confronted with the possibility of their own lynch. NSG is most certainly one of those people, but she hasn't displayed that quality here.

For example, take Partition Mafia. NSG opened the game up with a ton of lurking, but, when it looked likelier and likelier that she would be lynched, stepped up her game in a huge way. She's clearly rattled when voted incorrectly in mafia games (which is a common trait), and that means that when she's voted in games as town it tends to increase her emotional investment in games, resulting in posts like these:

In post 2355, northsidegal wrote:
In post 2353, Kokichi Oma wrote:You're not unvoting group 3 after I said it was a scumclaim from my opinion, so why should I listen to yours?
YOU NEVER EXPLAINED WHY IT WAS A SCUMCLAIM.

In post 2356, northsidegal wrote:kokichi - i have been doing nohting but asking you to talk things over. if you are town, you are playing like utter trash making that vote right now.
Now, I know that it's not fair to expect her to get angry every time she's approaching a lynch, but a major problem I had with NSG's play before today is that she just felt listless the whole way through - now she's about to get lynched and be a major part of town losing the game, but there's no significant change in her play: she still feels flat, and she isn't focused on helping the town solve the game after her lynch (she'd argue that she's just waiting for me or waiting for someone else, but I find that bullshit - she has a full game to analyze and the best she can give for scumsuspects is her shallow scumread on Rampage and her nonread on me, don't think it's unreasonable to ask her to produce more than that).

The other thing that stands out to me is the fact that she continues gamesolving while she goes down the whole time, AND there are more depth to her reads. For example, take her read on Scioness here: it's "Scioness is town because of meta", and then no doubt, no paranoia, nothing. She has a similarly strong townread on Wisdom in Partition Mafia, but even then, she still considers reasons why he could be scum (as in here). Her scumreads are more nebulous due to the nature of the game, but it's clear that she's trying to talk to her townreads about what she thinks the best lynch and that she's trying hard to guide the town to a win - I don't get that sense at all here.

Similar response to being lynched here - is upset that people don't see her as obvtown as shit, starts to suspect people for pushes on her who she expects to know her better - this one is a little weird because there's a plan to win the game in place and I don't actually understand where her lynch came from at all...?

Her play here is pretty much exactly what I expect - after clawing out of her mislynch D1 (predecessor was suspected), there's great scumhunting vs RC (the scum spearheading her push as she goes down), strong emotional investment almost instantly, fights it all the way down.

Contrast that with Micro 792; she gets a bit frustrated at Mathdino for reasons that aren't "I'm obviously town and this lynch is horrible", and argues with him as she goes down but it's much more going through the motions (like it is here), and the strong sense of her scumhunting as she goes down and trying to guide the town in the right direction just isn't there.

Scioness Sajj · Post Post #732 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:15 pm

oops i lied.

porb important because mathdino mentioned that and is not exactly true. this is not a case of me pushing nsg back because i'm upset about being lynched. don't let anybody put it in this narrative.

at first, i was upset, yes, but i was letting it go because i was considering nsg being town but just wrong. sort of written myself off as a collateral damage.

my view has changed after NSG has blatantly misrepped what kind of reads i have been pushing as scum. claiming she has misremembered them, my two only pushes from two different games.

now im done

BuJaber · Post Post #733 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:53 pm

Sajj considering only 1 lurker joined nsg's wagon and dino who is pretty confident on his townread hasn't this seems like an overreaction.

@nsg - nice of you to poke me where it hurts. You know my feelings about partition. 1) I believe the setup should have been mountainous. 2) I believe a mountainous game with the same player list would have ended with a town win. 3) I tried really hard and repeatedly to lynch group 2 but nobody wanted to. You know damn well I can't lynch alone as you yourself have tried and failed. If I count you then that was only 2 people willing to vote for group 2 out of a remaining 8, 3 of which were scum and 1 townie didn't show up until the last day. 4) I put 80% blame on a certain someone who used his pr even though he actually still thinks he was right. Because ungortunately people judge their actions by their coincidental results instead of objectively evaluating their actions based on the information they had before their decision. Not to mention that because of the nature of the pr the unwillingness of its user to self-vote means they are always pushing for a lynch on a bigger group than if they didn't use their pr and thus pushing for an inherently riskier lynch. 5) wisdom WAS in fact town and considering I was one of the guiltied I only needed to be sure of that to know that koki was scum. But koki was put in a group that contained both me and scum mvp fitz who was only really softly-suspected a few times and was close to a universal townread.
Let's talk about this game. We know your stance on sajj. And now that I've had a glimpse into the version of reality you live in I don't envy the difficult position you must put yourself before any vote. The decision on who to vote for at any time in any game must be agonizing to you if you are considering every possibility no matter how improbable it is. But I want to know what you think of duck and aa9. I want to know why you made the conscious choice of derailing two healthy counterwagons that split up pretty much the entire playerbase and why you made this decision less than 4 days before deadline. Do you really townread them so strongly? Do you think if sajj is scum they have to be town? Why is a sajj lynch so urgent?

BuJaber · Post Post #734 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:30 pm

Oh and I'm open to the idea of sharing PTs because it will expose who lied earlier but I have some stuff related to who gets NK'd and I don't want scum to see it.

(Of course I am testing my neighbor if they are scum by sharing it with them but that's still a 2/12 shot of them being scum compared to guaranteed scum exposure here)

HeWhoSwims · Post Post #735 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:32 am

VC9

UglyDuck (2) (L-5)

: wavemode, BuJaber

ArcAngel9 (3) (L-4)

: UnrealSeal, mutantdevle, Invisibility

mutantdevle (1) (L-6):

UglyDuck

Scioness Sajj (5) (L-2):

Mathdino, northsidegal, Awoo, wingedcatgirl, Myloninja13

Mathdino (1) (L-6):

ArcAngel9

northsidegal (1) (L-6):

Scioness Sajj

Not voting: none

I won't punish you for quoting a few messages from a PT, but I ask you to not do that too much. It takes a bit away from the game. If you stick to paraphrasing, that's way better.

Scioness Sajj · Post Post #736 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:04 am

In post 733, BuJaber wrote:Sajj considering only 1 lurker joined nsg's wagon and dino who is pretty confident on his townread hasn't this seems like an overreaction.

Math is Math, even if he had doubt he wouldn't openly share them if he isn't sure enough. NSG is better at the game so obviously it is worth to lynch me instead of her.

This is a dead game, posting any content believable enough gives you twoncred. My wagon as of right now is two lurkers, NSG and Math and Awoo.
She ignored every in game factor that should possibly give her a pause, nobody was, at least openly, scumreading me before she's made the case. Only effort she put in was making her case look good. Things from the thread were cases of me not playing to her perception of my town play. Quote from other game was misrepped and taken out of context to suit the case.
If she is town then i think it had nothing to do with game solving but a lot with some gut feeling she had about me that needed justification. I don't think she should be trusted with her reads if she keeps playing like that.

All that said you will have to make a decision tomorrow. I don't think there is anything else to be said this day phase. Hammer me whenever you are ready.
VOTE: Scioness

wavemode · Post Post #737 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:12 am

Scioness Sajj (5) (L-1): Mathdino, northsidegal, Awoo, wingedcatgirl, Myloninja13, Scioness

perhaps Math and NSG would like to contemplate the quality of this wagon's tail end

BuJaber · Post Post #738 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:32 am

And what does that say to scum if town are going to give up and not fight their lynches? If you don't want effort rewarded simply because it is effort then don't contribute to the wagon. Next time it will just happen again. And then town or scum the people who live are those that can put in more effort and/or can articulate more.

I come here to play mafia not a popularity contest.

BuJaber · Post Post #739 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:32 am

Articulate better*

wavemode · Post Post #740 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:41 am

this could certainly be theatrics, personally i dont know scion well enough to make that call

but i would keep in mind how demotivating it is to be mislynched when you are really putting in effort

it only ever happened to me once and i literally quit the site

so idk, just looking over everything i'm still leaning town on scion (that is to say, im null on 736, but i was already leaning town on her previously so that has not changed)

mutantdevle · Post Post #741 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:42 am

Eww I have so much to catch up on.

mutantdevle · Post Post #742 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:54 am

@page 26 and I'm liking NSG's case on Scioness.

BuJaber · Post Post #743 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:00 am

I get the demotivation and helplessness if she is town. I also wouldn't condemn all self-votes. But doing it here at this time amd putting herself at L-1 is close to game throwing. Believe me I did it in a 3p lylo in my newbie game because I felt frustrated and tried a hail mary gambit. I have since learned my lesson. You don't self-vote when it more or less guarantees your lynch.

This is pretty much the same as hammering yourself as a townie. Because if town she can't possibly know that scum wouldn't login before she returns and hammer her. And sure a hammer would look shady but townies get trigger happy too when deadline is near.

mutantdevle · Post Post #744 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:03 am

In post 673, BuJaber wrote:There's still the matter of the lying during neighbor claims. I am still interested in any info that exposes who lied so we can ask them why and see if we believe them to be town based on what they say or we lynch them for lying.

What current PT associations do you have confirmed? From there, we can simply question those we are unsure of.

BuJaber · Post Post #745 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:07 am

I mean I am quite sure dino and wave aren't lying about their PT.
And likewise sajj about awoo being both her and my neighbor.
I also doubt mylon was faking the confusion over names so I believe he is neighbors with nsg and AA9.

But technically nothing is confirmed.

mutantdevle · Post Post #746 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:07 am

In post 678, northsidegal wrote:After we've decided on a lynch but before it happens, would everyone be alright posting the full contents of their PTs? There's something I've been thinking about.

I'm comfortable with that. Not as much has gone on in my PTs as I would have hoped.

BuJaber · Post Post #747 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:12 am

Wave is one of my top townreads I'm fine assuming he didn't lie so maybe we can treat his other neighbor sajj as confirmed. Also because stefan seemed pretty genuine when he said "I don't envy sajj being between us".

So personally I'd question the rest.

Pedit - mod stated he prefers we don't outright post our PTs.. so maybe ask specific people to paraphrase and have their neighbors confirm or deny etc. Maybe anyone who reaches a certain threshold of votes?

mutantdevle · Post Post #748 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:12 am

In post 697, northsidegal wrote:
In post 696, BuJaber wrote:If both are scum why would stefan say this to her? They'd know I am.
This is the crux of where I think your reasoning is questionable. It's not difficult to fake.

Sure it's not difficult, but I really don't think it's likely. I agree with BuJaber on them never being scum together this game.

mutantdevle · Post Post #749 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:15 am

In post 704, northsidegal wrote:my making things up
your view of my confidence

Personally, I thought you came across as confident.