Long term health of mafiascum

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davesaz
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Post Post #875  (ISO)  » Sat May 05, 2018 2:49 am

Just thinking of how other sites / apps get user feedback.
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Post Post #876  (ISO)  » Sat May 05, 2018 6:47 am

In post 875, davesaz wrote:Just thinking of how other sites / apps get user feedback.


It generally happens organically because the mods and the players are all friends united by some other purpose in addition to mafia.

In post 799, brassherald wrote:I think one thing to promote retention would be to lower the duration of the days. I would be willing to bet you lose most players in their first newbie game during day 1.

Also, a ranked queue is just going to lead to toxicity, in my opinion. Like, if a player ends up ranked number 3 in the forum, how do we now make it so that this player is in games that match his (now, fully measured) skill level without just forcing the top 9-21 players to play literally every game together? It will lead to elitism and smaller queues.

I also think we need a fully formed theory of the ranked system including the method of scoring, etc. before anyone can really say "Yeah, this works" How do we score a mafia player? Is it pure win/loss? Do they earn points for lynching a player of the other faction? Do you earn more points by playing against someone better than you? Does it account for luck at all?

Even if I thought the ranked system was a good idea, the discussion would need to begin with "Here's a ranking system, let's work out the kinks." not "let's have a ranking system"


MTG Salvation had ranked games for a bit. Here are their iterations of their scoring system.

Spoiler: alpha-feb-2012
Townie Scoring System
-1 points for every townie mislynch while they were alive, that you did not take part in.
-4 points for adding your vote to a townie lynch.
-8 points for being lynched.
+2 points for each unsuccessful end-of-day vote against a mafia or SK.
+8 points for every mafia or SK lynch they participate in.
+2 points for each unlynched dead scum at end of game (crossfire, vig-kill, etc.)
+8, +7, +6 Townie Case Starters*
+8 points for being night-killed by the scum.

Mafia and SK Scoring System:
Mafia/SK points for each dead townie while alive: +3
Mafia/SK points for survival: +16

Townie Win: 0 Points
Mafia Win: 10 Points
SK Win: 50 Points.


Spoiler: beta-july-2012
Townie Scoring System:
-3 points for being lynched.
-2 points for every townie death they participate in.
-1 points for every townie mislynch they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+1 point for every scum death they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+2 points for each unsuccessful or successful end-of-day vote against a mafia or SK (does not supersede -2.5 penalty - you get both).
+3 points for every mafia or SK death they participate in (through vig, track, investigation, etc.).

Mafia scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+1 point for every non-mafia lynch they participate in.

SK scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2 points for every threat's death they participate in (this is anyone that can kill them through a night action and the cop).

Non-SK Neutral scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 for each successful step towards win condition.

Post game scoring:
+2 for fulfilling any alternative/additional win conditions.
+4 points for townie win.
+4 for non-SK neutral fulfilling win condition.
+4 points for mafia win.
+8 points for SK win.

Bonus Points:
+2/day played before replacing in (max 6) for replacing in.
+2 for mod award.
+4 for first judge award.
+1 for any judge award after the first is given out.

Penalties:
-12 for (forced) replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-8 for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).


Spoiler: season 1, may 2014
Townie Scoring System:
-3 points for being lynched.
-2 points for each townie death they participated in (through a lynch or a vig-like ability).
-1 point for each townie mislynch they did not participate in, but were alive for.
-1 point for being endgamed (being alive at the end of the game and losing).
+1 point for each scum death they did not participate in, but were alive for.
+1 point for being NKed; +1 point bonus for being the first NK; +2 point bonus for being NKed as Vanilla.
+2 point for each scum role or ability investigated.
+2 points for each townie death prevented with an ability.
+2 points for each unsuccessful end-of-day vote against scum (including Mafia, SK, or CL).
+4 points for each scum death they participated in (through a lynch or vig-like ability).

Mafia scoring system:
-3 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each non-mafia death that occurs while alive.

Survivor scoring system:
-2 points for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each day or night period survived.

SK scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they were alive for.
+2 points for each threat's death they participated in (this is anyone that can kill them or obtain information against them with an ability).

Hitman scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+1 point for each night period they were alive for.
+2 points for each target that died while the Hitman was alive.

Cult Leader scoring system:
-1 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
-1 point for each dead recruit.
+2 points for each player successfully recruited.

Post game scoring:
+2 points for fulfilling any alternative/additional win conditions.
+3 points for each surviving member of their mafia team.
+4 points for townie win.
+4 points for non-SK neutral fulfilling win condition.
+8 points for SK win.

Bonus Points:
+1 point for each individual judge award (5 total).
+2 points for receiving a mod award.
+2 points for each day played before replacing in (min 2, max 6) for replacing in.

Penalties:
-12 points for forced replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-8 points for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 points for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-4 points for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).


Their version of the NRG had 5 people review each game and assess how players did.
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Post Post #877  (ISO)  » Sat May 05, 2018 8:27 pm

#fuckcurse
get a warrant

tn5421
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Post Post #878  (ISO)  » Sun May 06, 2018 2:13 am

In post 877, Vijarada wrote:#fuckcurse


I don't know anything about them, but I've only heard bad things.
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Post Post #879  (ISO)  » Mon May 07, 2018 10:16 am

In post 869, Ranmaru wrote:One of the things I realized is that there might be certain small things we (myself included) can do to help the site. I have realized I need to give a little more, and I'm going try to mod more games on the site, and I will consider helping out as a List Mod in the future (if needed). I also intend to IC in the future as well. (When I have enough time) I don't know how else I can help at the moment, but I'll try to find other ways as well.

I've never once modded a game and a large part of why is that I'm mostly a mobile poster and the ui would make modding from a phone next to impossible.

I admittedly don't have a solution to this, but am curious who else shares the dilemma.

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Post Post #880  (ISO)  » Mon May 07, 2018 10:34 am

i think the modbot we've been chatting about may actually support mobile use
you'll set it up on your computer, expose your localtunnel with a single command line statement, and receive a url that you can access anywhere to a page w/ an interface that controls the bot
that url won't work well for many users, but for modding you don't really need that, right?
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Post Post #881  (ISO)  » Mon May 07, 2018 11:23 am

That only really works if my computer and phone are running and connected to the same LAN, at which point I'd be just as capable of modding from my computer as my phone.

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Post Post #882  (ISO)  » Mon May 07, 2018 11:28 am

Not necessarily!
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Post Post #883  (ISO)  » Tue May 08, 2018 6:47 pm

In post 865, davesaz wrote:I have back end and design skills. No experience at all in the web page coding/generating and UI part, but if you need conceptual user experience story design or data storage/processing/retrieval just say the word. The site needs a way to identify volunteers who have the skills it needs. And accept help...

I can add you to the coding group / Slack team if you'd like. The skillset of the people currently in the group includes(but isn't limited to) designers, professional programmers & hobby programmers. Just shoot me a PM.

In post 864, MathBlade wrote:A sitechat bot is not a simple task due to the networking and PHP ick (I hate PHP but understand it is a requirement with vbulletin) not to mention scum chat etc that would be needed.

I'm not sure how you envisioned a bot working, but I see it as being a feature of site chat itself, not a separate, external service. Site Chat's back end is Java. No PHP at all.

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Post Post #884  (ISO)  » Wed May 23, 2018 6:45 am

Isn't "saving the site" as simple as getting more people interested in the game? So just get your friends (online and IRL) to start playing on here and they'll invite their friends and traffic on here will go way up. Or maybe there's some way we could advertise this place and make it seem appealing

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Post Post #885  (ISO)  » Wed May 23, 2018 9:35 am

In post 884, BlackStar wrote:Isn't "saving the site" as simple as getting more people interested in the game? So just get your friends (online and IRL) to start playing on here and they'll invite their friends and traffic on here will go way up. Or maybe there's some way we could advertise this place and make it seem appealing

Other Mafia sites are growing, it isn't an issue of Mafia losing popularity alas.
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Post Post #886  (ISO)  » Wed May 23, 2018 3:12 pm

In post 883, Kison wrote:I can add you to the coding group / Slack team if you'd like. The skillset of the people currently in the group includes(but isn't limited to) designers, professional programmers & hobby programmers. Just shoot me a PM.

Also interested, if nothing more than to be a fly on the wall

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Post Post #887  (ISO)  » Wed May 23, 2018 3:28 pm

Added. :)

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Post Post #888  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:37 am

In post 841, zoraster wrote:I think EM can use a competitive queue in a way that would be difficult for us to replicate simply because we don't play as many games as you can on EM, etc. because our games last many, many times longer.

That said, I think RECORD KEEPING would be positive. Wins, losses, perhaps broken down in scum and town, etc. It doesn't have to be something where we publicize the "best" player on the site from it, but having some way to really look back at your games and make some comparisons would be neat.


This.

I don't see the point in ranked games. Or how you would implement them. Remember that this is somewhat a team game, and getting ranked for what is in effect others performance seems poor. Also tiering players off never seems like a good idea. Record keeping I like, however. Because - statistics. But only really for personal use.
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Post Post #889  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:47 pm

Everyone with a Twitter account should be following @MafiaScum and retweeting the fuck out of everything they post.

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Post Post #890  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:50 pm

A tweet at least once a day with an emphasis on discussion would also be a good idea, but I admit that's a non-trivial skill set to have and I'm backseat driving by saying something on it.

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Post Post #891  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:00 pm

I don't know what this does for post reach, but pinning a tweet asking for different roles to be posted could make a Twitter variant of grand idea mafia

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Post Post #892  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:16 pm

In post 874, RadiantCowbells wrote:oh boy i sure can't wait to check team mafia tonight

*boy oh boy

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Post Post #893  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:26 pm

As a person who started on other sites, a huge reason why ms is dying is because of the standard two week long days. I started as a ToS player, and I moved to the Forum Mafia Section there, the phases range from 120/48 to 72/24. Nobody wants to come to here with these phase lengths, I suggest that some games have shortened dayphases, because ms won't adapt otherwise.

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Post Post #894  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:07 pm

Basically people want fun nighttime shenanigans vice scumhunting and debating
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Post Post #895  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:11 pm

In post 893, ManateeDude wrote:As a person who started on other sites, a huge reason why ms is dying is because of the standard two week long days. I started as a ToS player, and I moved to the Forum Mafia Section there, the phases range from 120/48 to 72/24. Nobody wants to come to here with these phase lengths, I suggest that some games have shortened dayphases, because ms won't adapt otherwise.
With respect, deadlines of that length are the entire draw to mafiascum.

Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but not much of one.

I would not play in a game with a day deadline shorter than four days, at absolute minimum--and even then, I'd be miserable and underperform.
I don't play in games with deadlines shorter than a week, and a week is still a dangerously short amount of time if I just so happen to have a week where I'm incredibly busy/have a V/LA.

Ten days to fourteen days is the amount I typically USE. So my preferred DEADLINE is 14-21 days, as to not always encounter a deadline rush. (If I have a 21-day deadline, I'm never using all 21, but I will probably fully utilize 14. If I have a 14-day deadline, I'd certainly try to get things wrapped up by the tenth day.)

I stopped playing mafia elsewhere because mafia that uses those shorter deadlines--which I used to be able to handle just fine--I simply can't handle anymore.

I know I am far from unique in that aspect.

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Post Post #896  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:53 pm

In post 893, ManateeDude wrote:As a person who started on other sites, a huge reason why ms is dying is because of the standard two week long days. I started as a ToS player, and I moved to the Forum Mafia Section there, the phases range from 120/48 to 72/24. Nobody wants to come to here with these phase lengths, I suggest that some games have shortened dayphases, because ms won't adapt otherwise.


What mastina has said.

Plus, there's nothing stopping a sub-culture of shorter deadline games from existing on the site. It's just that it's not particularly in demand/has a limited pool of players (supposedly - I'm not particularly knowledgable about this).

In post 894, Maruchan wrote:Basically people want fun nighttime shenanigans vice scumhunting and debating


To be fair, you can have fun nighttime shenanigans (aka role madness) while still having scum hunting and debating.
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Post Post #897  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:32 pm

In post 895, mastina wrote:
In post 893, ManateeDude wrote:As a person who started on other sites, a huge reason why ms is dying is because of the standard two week long days. I started as a ToS player, and I moved to the Forum Mafia Section there, the phases range from 120/48 to 72/24. Nobody wants to come to here with these phase lengths, I suggest that some games have shortened dayphases, because ms won't adapt otherwise.
With respect, deadlines of that length are the entire draw to mafiascum.

Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but not much of one.

I would not play in a game with a day deadline shorter than four days, at absolute minimum--and even then, I'd be miserable and underperform.
I don't play in games with deadlines shorter than a week, and a week is still a dangerously short amount of time if I just so happen to have a week where I'm incredibly busy/have a V/LA.

Ten days to fourteen days is the amount I typically USE. So my preferred DEADLINE is 14-21 days, as to not always encounter a deadline rush. (If I have a 21-day deadline, I'm never using all 21, but I will probably fully utilize 14. If I have a 14-day deadline, I'd certainly try to get things wrapped up by the tenth day.)

I stopped playing mafia elsewhere because mafia that uses those shorter deadlines--which I used to be able to handle just fine--I simply can't handle anymore.

I know I am far from unique in that aspect.


Yeah, thats perfectly fair. But most people that I know are daunted to join ms because of those long phases. I've heard multiple "The people there are so nice, but two weeks is too much for me". People love ms but some can't adapt to that kind of timeline. Even having a 10 RL day makes everything so much easier. Im suggesting that ms provides some "stepping stone" games for people to adapt from 3/1 to 14/2.

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Post Post #898  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:50 pm

I don't think the two weeks are really needed. People could adapt to 10 days if they were presented with the opportunity.
We say we're waiting for people to contribute, and more often than not they either don't have anything to say or are actually unavailable.
I don't think I've ever had a day deadline expire and still have something to say about it. I've had days hammered while I had something to say, but never deadline expiring.
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Post Post #899  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:05 pm

Not every game on MS uses a 14-day deadline - some games I've been in recently have used 8-day deadlines.

The problem with 14-day deadlines isn't the length, per se. You don't need to use all 14 days - it's just there if you want to use it. The problem is that people have more freedom to be lazy because of that, though. Because there's no sense of urgency to actually get things done, people skate by on prod dodges and promises to do things some other day. That's bad for game health in general.

8 (or even 7) days seems like a fairly reasonable amount of time to generate a decent amount of content (which is less likely to happen with much shorter deadlines) while still allowing for variable activity levels. Plus there's a bit more urgency to get things done but not so much that you have to rush through day phases with little information from some players (though, again, you have the option to do so if you wish).

Something like 3 days is far too short for a lot of players (at least on MS, especially those that go V/LA over weekends and whatnot), but 5 days might be fine if you could guarantee a minimum activity level for players (and didn't have many replacements).

Unless I'm unaware of something, deadline lengths are mostly up to each individual moderator. If a moderator wants to run games with 8-day (or less) deadlines, they can, can't they? (I guess there's some unofficial rule that you shouldn't use really short deadlines but I don't think it's written in stone anywhere.) Just find moderators who are willing to do this.
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh

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