Open 730: Donner Party [Terminado]

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: ManateeDude

there can only be one creature of the sea in here.

But you're unreal, so he deserves life! VOTE: UnrealSeal

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: marshmellow marshall

Alliteration is evil

Lol, you can call me MM as everyone does...

[Marshmallow Marshall]

ManateeDude, may I ask you to get an avatar? It makes it easier to read the thread, and allows us to put an avatar on your name.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

ManateeDude, may I ask you to get an avatar? It makes it easier to read the thread, and allows us to put an avatar on your name.

I'll get to that asap.

Question: are we hypoing?

Hypoing? As in HYYYYYYYYYYYPE? If so, yes we are

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: Marsh
Gut

As in disgutsting?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

ManateeDude, may I ask you to get an avatar? It makes it easier to read the thread, and allows us to put an avatar on your name.

I'll get to that asap.

Question: are we hypoing?

Hypoing? As in HYYYYYYYYYYYPE? If so, yes we are

Hypoclaiming

Ex "If I am the cop, MM is town."

Oh lol. I think it's a good idea to do that.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: Marsh
Gut

YAAAAY! I WON!!!!

Explanation: I've been playing a secret game of chicken with Mathdino (only he didn't know about it). I wanted him to post first in this game and I WON!

That said...

VOTE: AP

I know this gets most of you guys fired up, so I'd say RVS is officially OVER!

*puts a random vote* RVS IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I can already tell this game will be interesting

Why?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Actually, I thought about it again... Hypoclaiming is quite useless, because the cop really should claim if he's put on stand. The time we're going to lose on everyone having hypoclaimed is really > the reward, aka a potential bonus information. Breadcrumbing does the same thing, but without the time waste. I vote for breadcrumbs.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: ejjinami
That cow avi gets weirder and weirder.

And I wouldn't want to hypo with flipless kills tbh.
If the cop is being lynched, he should claim imo. If so, there’s no real need for hypoclaiming.
And if the cop is killed at night, town would need to lynch his killer first before getting the info.
People would also have to watch out not to SR the people they checked and there would be all of that "but I had to do that" and "but I forgot, so […]" bullshit that tbh I don't really want to read. Like, hypoclaiming is a questionable strategy even in normal games, so like, I’m not really sure if it’s worth it in here.

Oh wait, I didn't think about that... cop flip doesn't happen before having the killer dead........ so it's another reason not to hypoclaim. But I'd like everyone's take on the subject.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I suddenly feel smart. wow


and yeah. :/ crumbing is a bit more valuable here cuz even with a closed setup we won't really know how many of the PRs are still alive. It could help with the claims, but I'd leave it to the individual choice tbh.
Let's be frank, no one is gonna waste time reading through a killed dude's ISO just to look for "possible crumbs". And with the person dead it's all WIFOM anyways. Crumbing is most useful to those who are still alive and want others to believe their claim.

And if the crumb is big enough for others to notice it without you explaining it, it's a failure cuz it'll only get you killed.

I'd say it should be a personal decision. People who are generally townread or are confident in not getting lynched shouldn't crumb imo.

I half agree with you on that. Leave small crumbs, not ones that can out you alive. It's not hard and might pay off later. It can't hurt ^^

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hypoclaiming is quite useless, because the cop really should claim if he's put on stand.

Wat? These two are completely separate functions. The cop (and any other PR) should claim if they're about to get lynched as per normal. Hypoclaiming is to allow you to give results as a PR without giving away your PR status.

...but WE WONT KNOW if the guy is telling truth before a long while. Crumbs > hypoclaims. We don't want a day wasted on talking about hypoclaims lol. @Shizune, hypoclaiming is saying that if you are XXX role, you did XXX last night.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hypoclaiming is to allow you to give results as a PR without giving away your PR status

Except if you clear any of the 3 anti-town players you are telling one or two of them you're not the Cop.

But there's this little thing I want to note right now: There is NO COP! It's a GUNSMITH. This means our investigative can return up to 4 guilties, but one of them is fake (the Vig will return a positive result as well as the Mafia/SK).

I also saw someone mentioning a Roleblocker, and I really hope that was a typo. Otherwise I'd assume someone's playing the game without knowing the setup or mechanics, which would really suck.

Wow. ++++++scumpoints for trying to confuse people, seriously... like, it's not funny enough to be a shitpost, and it's false. VOTE: ap

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hypoclaiming is to allow you to give results as a PR without giving away your PR status

Except if you clear any of the 3 anti-town players you are telling one or two of them you're not the Cop.

But there's this little thing I want to note right now: There is NO COP! It's a GUNSMITH. This means our investigative can return up to 4 guilties, but one of them is fake (the Vig will return a positive result as well as the Mafia/SK).

Good point on the "cop" vs "gunsmith". Yes I'm aware of the dangers of hypo'ing, they're the same every game it's discussed. I'd also push for the hypo to be around the vig depending on kills, since non-town can't be sure the person wasn't RBd even if they say they vig'd them.

I also saw someone mentioning a Roleblocker, and I really hope that was a typo. Otherwise I'd assume someone's playing the game without knowing the setup or mechanics, which would really suck.

Me, why are you hoping it's a typo? Are you hoping it's a typo in the opening post of rolecards as well?

Where's the gunsmith part, pray tell??

Yep

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hypoclaiming is quite useless, because the cop really should claim if he's put on stand.

Wat? These two are completely separate functions. The cop (and any other PR) should claim if they're about to get lynched as per normal. Hypoclaiming is to allow you to give results as a PR without giving away your PR status.

...but WE WONT KNOW if the guy is telling truth before a long while. Crumbs > hypoclaims. We don't want a day wasted on talking about hypoclaims lol. @Shizune, hypoclaiming is saying that if you are XXX role, you did XXX last night.

My point is that regardless of whether we decide on crumbs vs hypo, PRs should claim if they're about to get lynched. They're independent and the fact that they should claim pre-lynch does not change the hypo vs crumb discussion at all.

Where's the gunsmith part, pray tell??

Yep

Dietitian will return a "guilty" on: Mafia, SK, Vig
A traditional gunsmith will return a "guilty" on: Mafia, SK, Vig
A tradition cop will return a "guilty" on: Mafia, SK.

Hence "gunsmith" is a better descriptor than "cop".

OH. Blame my main site, on there Gunsmith = someone who visits people to give them a 1-use gun. Never heard of that version.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

MM and AP are most prob not in a team together.

@MM: It WORKED! You're a GENIUS!

UNVOTE: AP

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Ignore what I said about him trying to confuse town... I think I'm the one who's confused right now lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

My vote on MM is serious now

Elaborate.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

He's misrepping AP and trying to dissuade us from hypo claiming. Seems pretty anti town to me

Basically, I have a scumread and I have an opinion different of yours?

Usually, I townread this kind of behavior, because it doesn't look like a planned scum play, just a town who didn't think much before speaking *looks at blackstar*. I don't know about here. Could anyone tell me if it's a town or a scum tell here?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: ceejayvinoya like I should have last time.

Pedit: Damn you manatee

are you from the game where cee was super townie and explained his reads? Was he scum?

He was scum and I ended up listening to people instead of my gut.

Gut says AP is a good wagon.

VOTE: AP

Let's be frank, no one is gonna waste time reading through a killed dude's ISO just to look for "possible crumbs". And with the person dead it's all WIFOM anyways. Crumbing is most useful to those who are still alive and want others to believe their claim.

Mmmm I dunno, honestly you're probably right D2, but D3 I think I'd be more likely to go crumbhunting. I'm thinking crumbing is better than hypoing in this scenario but I have no experience with hypoing so take that with a grain of salt. I just feel like hypoing might lead to more WIFOM than necessary

Did you just entirely sheep my views lol?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Votecount 1.1

Not_Mafia(2)

~ Sando

(4)

, ceejayvinoya

(2)

Marshmallow Marshall(2)

~ BlackStar

(2)

, Mathdino

(1)

UnrealSeal(1)

~ Marshmallow Marshall

(5)

ManateeDude(1)

~ UnrealSeal

(1)

ejjinami(1)

~ ManateeDude

(7)

ceejayvinoya(1)

~ LuckyOtter

(1)

AP(1)

~ AP

(2)

Not Voting (3): ejjinami

(0)

, Not_Mafia

(3)

, shizune

(0)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-10 19:45:00)

And btw, what do the numbers in the brackets mean? (the purple colored ones)

They mean that the person has X votes on him/her/it/that.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I'm not convinced in your argument against Sando. If you had something stronger, I'd consider it

Why are you asking for something "stronger" when we're not even 90 posts into the game? Which kind of case do you expect? VOTE: Sando

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: ceejayvinoya like I should have last time.

Pedit: Damn you manatee

are you from the game where cee was super townie and explained his reads? Was he scum?

He was scum and I ended up listening to people instead of my gut.

Gut says AP is a good wagon.

VOTE: AP

Let's be frank, no one is gonna waste time reading through a killed dude's ISO just to look for "possible crumbs". And with the person dead it's all WIFOM anyways. Crumbing is most useful to those who are still alive and want others to believe their claim.

Mmmm I dunno, honestly you're probably right D2, but D3 I think I'd be more likely to go crumbhunting. I'm thinking crumbing is better than hypoing in this scenario but I have no experience with hypoing so take that with a grain of salt. I just feel like hypoing might lead to more WIFOM than necessary

Did you just entirely sheep my views lol?

Nah just looking for a good wagon. Yours is better. VOTE: Marshmallow Marshall

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Ignore what I said about him trying to confuse town... I think I'm the one who's confused right now lol

This just feels like a bad way to back away from their actions.

VOTE: MM

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... he-Smith-s

Convinced?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I have an idea (which I think is good) to satisfy both those who are for the hypoclaim and those against it.

First and foremost, the GS does NOT need to claim, crumb or hint anything before D3. If they flip on D3 or later we should be able to tell whom they've cleared going through their ISO (If they had a guilty, wait for later..)

Now let's assume we have 3 kills from N1. One would be the SK's, one is the Mafia's and the 3rd is ours. Now w/o the need for someone specific to step forward and call for it, we simply assume the first body is confirmed Mafia (hypo assumption). We then each state whom we think their mos likely partner is and why.

Then we repeat for 2nd and 3rd bodies. now here's the catch: If the Vigilante did eat a Mafioso (they will know) we are giving them advice on whom to target on N2. The same also applies if the SK did (although obviously the SK wouldn't want to get both Mafioso's out of the game so quickly, unless they suspect they ate a PR and want to know which.. )

The Dietician will also be part of the discussion, and IF they have a guilty they could very well find a way to tie that to at least one of the hypo conf!Mafia of the 3 bodies. (this is still risky because they could be telling the Mafia/SK who the Vig is not knowing that what they have is a false guilty, and

this is why I don't want the Dietician giving out results too early

because if we're unlucky we are giving the anti-town powers not one but 2 PRs).

Starting D3 I think everyone can work out what's best. I mean, if there are only 2 kills on N2 and/or if the Vig manages to eat the SK or a Mafioso who had already eaten someone and they see that outing the alignments they know will help the town minimize the lynch pool then by all means they should tell us what they've got, but since that's another can of worms and there are way too many possibilities for me to detail here I am just leaving it at that. (and besides if I a, the Vig that shouldn't even concern you at this point because I'll be telling me what to do then)

I think that's the core of your post, but I don't understand it. How does it help anyone (out of scums) to do a random assumption that could be completely false? I'm not sure of getting the point of your plan here.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Happy with AP being town here. Only thing that gave me pause was the calling me out on GS vs cop and simultaneously getting the roleblocker thing wrong but after letting him respond to that his backdown was townie. Scum don't put themselves out there like this and especially don't theory-craft this hard.

I think decent chance of scum in ejj/MM, and I don't think they're scum together. 44 through 49 did not feel organic to me and I'm trying to put my finger on anything specific in there, it feels a bit buddying to me. They're both disagreeing with a hypo claim (which is fine to disagree with) using talk about whether the

cop

GS should claim or not if threatened with lynching (which is not a fine conversation, obviously they should and that has no bearing on us hypoing or not). They also both focus on the

cop

GS while ignoring the other PRs, who is the biggest threat to SK since no block there, and obviously a big threat to Mafia as well.

N_M strikes me as outside scum-meta, but I'm a far cry from an expert on that one, and Math is the one I've heard most discussion of NMs play from previously so I'd like more from both of them.

I also prefer to TR in early days, based on an article written by Math I believe, and basically POE. My early day scumreads tend to be pretty bad, especially compared to my TRs.



AP I'm struggling to see the advantage of hypoing in the case of 3 kills. We've got a vig with a result we don't know and would like, but no way of confirming the vig without them outing themselves, and the setup is such that confirming the vig (them flipping in front of town) confirms their result as well (correct me if I'm wrong here). The only advantage I see of hypoing a 3 kill day2 is to then massclaim D3, if we don't get a vig claim we can narrow down their results. Vig getting eaten N2 onwards is a really bad situation for town though, I'm not sure any hypo on a 3 kill night is worth that risk.

Hence my talk about what to do in the case of 1-2 kills. Either the vig has a result that we'd like to have, or the RB stopped a kill and we'd like to know that, or the vig hit the SK and we'd like to know that, or two factions hit the same person and I don't think we can know that except by POE. My thoughts haven't fully percolated through yet, but I think we can potentially get enough info through to the GS+Vig to let them break the game open at least a little bit.

Same thoughts about AP alignment.

You misinterpreted the posts, then. We were not talking about that AT ALL lol, we were just stating it as an obvious everyone agrees on, and that's called a train of thoughts.

We're not even 100 posts in, I don't think it's useful to comment on the people who posted once or twice yet.

I guess Vigilante should claim if they hit a scum, and tell us the kills the scum has made in a case of 2 kills. What do you guys think about it?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

@MM/@Sando:

The hypo "2nd scum if X is scum" is just a way to provide the Vig with more leads IF they need it. I mean, if the Vig already made up their mind that's fine and there's no need to do it. However, let's assume I am the Vig (

again:

HYPOTHETICAL ASSUMPTION

merely to get the point across

). Now let's say I got lucky and nailed a Mafioso on N1. Now I'm stuck and I'm not sure where to go next, but I do TR someone and want their advice. The problem is I can't ask them for their advice because I'll be outing myself. So, I'm proposing everyone does that unprompted (which is actually now prompted if we do agree to it), and I will have got the advice I need from that particular someone I need it from

without having to ask and out myself

.

Basically, the "hypoclaim" in this case is your thought about scum pairings? Because if you mean that everyone states who he thinks could be paired together, including dead people, this is a very good idea. I want that to be done, actually. Is it what you meant, or did I misunderstand hypoclaiming again?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hi I'm back.

LuckyOtter not being very engaged in this game is bothering me. I think he could be likely scum here.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

Is he usually active? Could you, if you have those games, post the link to games he was in to allow us to know his meta?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

@MM/@Sando:

The hypo "2nd scum if X is scum" is just a way to provide the Vig with more leads IF they need it. I mean, if the Vig already made up their mind that's fine and there's no need to do it. However, let's assume I am the Vig (

again:

HYPOTHETICAL ASSUMPTION

merely to get the point across

). Now let's say I got lucky and nailed a Mafioso on N1. Now I'm stuck and I'm not sure where to go next, but I do TR someone and want their advice. The problem is I can't ask them for their advice because I'll be outing myself. So, I'm proposing everyone does that unprompted (which is actually now prompted if we do agree to it), and I will have got the advice I need from that particular someone I need it from

without having to ask and out myself

.

But why not just ask the guy who you tr on whos scum? It will look like youre just trying to read the guy, rather than asking for an nk target.

...which allows you not to out yourself as vigi. And allows you to read players.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

VOTE: Mathdino I want more from you. You've been staying out of the discussion, as if you didn't want to commit. I think you're fairly experienced and all, so please step in and contribute.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hi I'm back.

LuckyOtter not being very engaged in this game is bothering me. I think he could be likely scum here.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

Is he usually active? Could you, if you have those games, post the link to games he was in to allow us to know his meta?

LuckyOtter has been more pro-town on a game I've played with him where I was scum, and that's like within the first 100 pages.

Here's his iso in that game.
viewtopic.php?p=10219293&user_select%5B ... #p10219293

Notice the difference in the quality of his posts I'm seeing here from there.

Wew. I would never have guessed he could play like that, actually. @LuckyOtter, try to exist more among us

[Marshmallow Marshall]

So far CJ I just don't have much to latch onto. I put in my two cents in on the claiming/crumbing talk and I don't have any more to contribute on that front. If you filter it out there's not much else going on yet. In our game I had a pretty specific thing to focus on right away.

I know we played together so you have that meta, but if 'not being engaged' is what's bothering you, how do you feel about shizune, who has posted once to say hello, ask a question that was already answered, and not give a RVS vote?

Pedit: Same question to you wrt shizune, MM.

Tbh, my feeling is "replacement"... The account is new, and I don't see anything AI (because there's one or two posts lol).

Your answer is quite satisfying in my opinion.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I get some town vibes from AP but I'm not ready to actually call him town yet. He's only posted theory so far with a votepark on himself, and has not done any actual scum/townhunting so far. I'd suggest wagoning the fuck out of him if his activity begins dropping once theory-crafting dies down.

MM feels very much like new!town with all the vote hopping. Not-Mafia's vote on him feels like a genuine Town!Not_Mafia vote but I think it's misplaced.

VOTE: LuckyOtter 105 is pretty bad (CJ's bothered because he has meta reads on you, not just because your disengaged. I don't think there's a way to misunderstand that without doing so purposefully) and the 82 vote feels rather opportunistic.

You're right on AP imo.

I'm to the site, but not to FM. And "vote hopping" as you say is my meta.

N_M didn't post enough for me to read him. Why do you believe he's town for some unexplained votes?

:O why are you saying that? I didn't feel the 105 was scummy.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Darn I see your point.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

..........what? Wtf is that? VOTE: Ceejayvinova

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Did you read through my last game? Does it feel like a large discrepancy? (CJ and Sando can weigh in on this, too). How much are you reading me for this game vs. CJ's meta read?

So you obviously understand the value of using votes to place some early pressure, because in your eyes that's what CJ is doing. But somehow, my vote on MM must be scummy because it is not a genuine scumread. I couldn't possibly just be trying to feel MM out, a person who you are not certain about either?

VOTE: UnrealSeal
--
CJ are you poking and prodding or is this a serious vote at this point?

Before you got voted up, it did, actually. But right now, I believe you're town. And I believe this entire thing with you and the Seal is a town vs town argument.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

This feels like TvT to me

"this" being who vs who?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

This feels like TvT to me

If you mean Lucky vs Unreal, I think so too. CJV isn't though.

Yeah, I was talking about lucky and unreal

Oh lol ignore #129. I think that too.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Votecount 1.3

ceejayvinoya(4)

~ ManateeDude(14), AP(13), Not_Mafia(5), Marshmallow Marshall(37)

Marshmallow Marshall(2)

~ BlackStar(8), Mathdino(1)

LuckyOtter(2)

~ UnrealSeal(6), ceejayvinoya(11)

UnrealSeal(1)

~ LuckyOtter(7)

Sando(1)

~ ejjinami(10)

Not_Mafia(1)

~ Sando(9)


Not Voting (1): shizune(1)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-10 19:45:00)

MOD REMINDERS

Weekend prod timer is in effect, and will end in: (expired on 2018-07-02 00:00:00).

Reminder: Even though the prod timer is extended, not posting for 96 hours (V/LA excluded) is reason for force replacement.

@Korina, what do the numbers next to our names mean? I thought it was the votes on us, but apparently no...

[Marshmallow Marshall]

The bolded numbers are the number of votes a player has. The normal, non-bolded numbers are the number of posts the player has made.

Ok thanks <3

[Marshmallow Marshall]

N_M didn't post enough for me to read him. Why do you believe he's town for some unexplained votes?

It's N_M's meta. He plays in a way that makes him very easy to sort.

Okay, but don't you think that he can change his meta very easily then? I believe he's the incarnation of the problem with metareads.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

he's been playing this way for like 4 years

Wtf lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I really don't like the vibe I'm getting from Marsh. He seems way too frantic and desperate for town validation

So because I'm not as lethargic as you, I'm scummy? I'm always top poster on my forum, every game (unless I die early of course, but even there lol). And "desperate for town validation"? Elaborate on that please.

If you want a link to a game on my forum, http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... ht=spirits. My newbie game: viewtopic.php?t=76171&start=875.

Does anyone know BlackStar's meta, or have a link to a game he was in to give me?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

@BlackStar I want reaction to #140, please. Going to bed now, good morning people

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Darn I see your point.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

..........what? Wtf is that? VOTE: Ceejayvinova

Elaborate on the vote please.

He literally suddenly switched his vote after letting UnrealSeal make a case against LuckyOtter. It reeks of opportunistic scum vote.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

He was scum and I ended up listening to people instead of my gut.

Gut says AP is a good wagon.

VOTE: AP

Mmmm I dunno, honestly you're probably right D2, but D3 I think I'd be more likely to go crumbhunting. I'm thinking crumbing is better than hypoing in this scenario but I have no experience with hypoing so take that with a grain of salt. I just feel like hypoing might lead to more WIFOM than necessary

Did you just entirely sheep my views lol?

Tbh this felt like shade.

I'm not convinced in your argument against Sando. If you had something stronger, I'd consider it

Why are you asking for something "stronger" when we're not even 90 posts into the game? Which kind of case do you expect? VOTE: Sando

And I don’t like this one. The vote feels really itchy considering he seemed to have some thoughts about Lucky and black.
It felt like he was either trying to buddy me because of my read on sando or was nervous to push his own scumreads.
Regardless of which of it is it, I don’t really like it.

Did you just entirely sheep my views lol?

Nah just looking for a good wagon. Yours is better. VOTE: Marshmallow Marshall

How do you read otter’s vote on you?

Ignore what I said about him trying to confuse town... I think I'm the one who's confused right now lol

This just feels like a bad way to back away from their actions.

VOTE: MM

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... he-Smith-s

Convinced?

This feels either like an “unnecessary power contest” or a stress/defense reaction.
Like, this is not a strong argument, but this and the previous post really remind me of his previous scum game Iplayed with him.
Defensive posts and being afraid to OMGUS a townread/strong townie were one one of the main reasons why I scumread him there. Tbh the only thing that he’s doing differently in here is that he doesn’t feel like he’s rushing in for all the easy towncreed.

Like, that posts ^ are either scum-indicative, or NAI for him. I remember him saying post game, that most of the stuff I read him for were NAI, but like, tbh I’m not really thrilled to test it out.
I’d like him to comment on the vote btw (in 81).

Lol not shade, but I wondered what had led him to this point of view. I wanted him to elaborate a bit, and he did later.

Reaction testing. Star did not react to my vote AT ALL, and he gathers my highest scumread.

NAI. He simply switched his vote, but it was random and not opportunistic (since I was not being voted). Probably a reaction test.

Power contest? What do you mean by that? This is simply me avoiding a useless debate that would drive the game away because of terminology lol.

As I said, I wanted to see what BlackStar would do with that. He did absolutely nothing, while reacting quite hard to someone else's vote on the same player.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I really don't like the vibe I'm getting from Marsh. He seems way too frantic and desperate for town validation

So because I'm not as lethargic as you, I'm scummy? I'm always top poster on my forum, every game (unless I die early of course, but even there lol). And "desperate for town validation"? Elaborate on that please.

If you want a link to a game on my forum, http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... ht=spirits. My newbie game: viewtopic.php?t=76171&start=875.

Does anyone know BlackStar's meta, or have a link to a game he was in to give me?

@BlackStar I want reaction to #140, please. Going to bed now, good morning people

Im not lethargic. And you're scummy because you're freaking out and flopping around all over the place hoping that people will stop being suspicious with you. You're moving your vote in order to have it line up with the general consensus and you're extremely defensive. I didn't even ask about your meta or past games and you offered it up because you're so desperate for people to stop scum reading you lol

You're not posting much, and you're refusing to put your vote somewhere (until recently).

I'm not freaking out. I will always flop all around the place

Nope. The general consensus atm doesn't exist lol. I initiated the vote on you. And it seems that you want to deflect it by attacking me? Also, I'm "defensive" if I say I don't want to be lynched... Isn't it normal to be willing to survive? I believe everyone should link their meta tbh, it makes the reading much easier.

I still want YOUR meta by the way. You still didn't give it. This makes me think I was right about you deflecting the suspicions by throwing shade at me.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Leaning town: BlackStar, ejjinami, manatee, AP, CJ
Null: Mathdino, Sando, NotMafia
Leaning scum: MM>UnrealSeal>Shizune

MM's early posts feel a little too try-hard. He could be just trying to get the game going, but is a little shady about it on more than one occasion. I'm thinking about posts 37, 78, and 83 here. It looks like he's trying to cast suspicion and feel out the crowd to see if these are viable wagons rather than take the initiative to start one himself. The vote-hopping itself doesn't bother me, but in conjunction with these other posts it looks a little off. Also, of all the defenses I've gotten, his feels the most like buddying (particularly in the tone of his vote against CJ, felt like an overracted sheeping of Manatee's CJ vote).

Seal is obviously an alt and should understand the value of changing strategies, so why he would lend any credence to CJ's attack on me as town is beyond me. His interpretation of my initial vote against MM also seems disingenuous. I have a hard time believing that as town, he actually thinks that I was trying to jump on a wagon and ride it to a lynch. I understand why he gives NM the benefit of the doubt, but that he doesn't ask me about my vote and immediately paints it as scummy is what I find suspicious. CJ at least asked me to explain it.

Neither Shizune nor Mathdino has done anything useful yet. Gut says Shizune is more likely scum. No RVS vote + pointless question as only contribution feels icky regardless of join date.

VOTE: MM

MM!scum = AP!town and CJ!town imo.

Why do you townread BlackStar? And Manatee?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Also you never voted for me so what do you mean you initiated this by voting for me? Lol

Oh fuck VOTE: blackstar lol.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

You voted for AP and then I said you were misrep ping him. There was never a point before that where I had a "strong reaction" to someone else voting him. Also, I didn't just vote for you. My vote has been on you since RVS and hasn't moved. You didn't ask me for my meta, you asked everyone in the game if they know my meta and if they could proved links to my past games. If you want to see them then just go on my profile and look at them.

I didn't know I could just go to your profile though ;-;

I'll check these games. But for now, actually, UNVOTE: BlackStar VOTE: Ceejayvinoya He still didn't comment.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Also you never voted for me so what do you mean you initiated this by voting for me? Lol

Oh fuck VOTE: blackstar lol.

You voted for AP and then I said you were misrep ping him. There was never a point before that where I had a "strong reaction" to someone else voting him. Also, I didn't just vote for you. My vote has been on you since RVS and hasn't moved. You didn't ask me for my meta, you asked everyone in the game if they know my meta and if they could proved links to my past games. If you want to see them then just go on my profile and look at them.

I didn't know I could just go to your profile though ;-;

I'll check these games. But for now, actually, UNVOTE: BlackStar VOTE: Ceejayvinoya He still didn't comment.

Can we lynch this guy already?

...lol. Okay, let's say I'm scum. What is my strategy?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Can we lynch this guy already?

Not yet. I mean, I don't fancy lynching people for being annoying (Disclaimer: MM is

not

even annoying to me, but I'm talking in general). I like lynching people because they make sense -to me- as scum OR if they're confusing enough that lynching them either provides more info or prevents them from going to LyLo. Obviously none of these is the case here, so I would rather get CJV whom I do think is scum.

Now someone asked about the scum motivation about CJV's behaviour, and I say what's the TOWN!motive behind voting someone who did the same thing you did, only it was about your own talk which you both interpreted in a way that is different to how a 3rd person did.

Let me try and phrase it another way: Person A says they like amphibians such as crocodiles. Person B says amphibians' skin being used to produce bags, shoes, belts and what not in inhumane. Person C points out amphibians' skin is not used for that and accuses B of being ignorant. Person A then reiterates that

crocodile skin

is indeed used for such production. Person C points out B said "amphibians" and crocodiles aren't amphibians. Now obviously B was mislead by A's statement (who was also under the impression his initial statement was correct still). C restates his point that crocodiles aren't amphibians, and A goes "Oh! Got ya! I agree B is actually at fault".

Now, how does

ignorant

A fault B for following A's doubly-confessed-to-be intended meaning? If it slipped my mind that crocodiles are actually reptiles not amphibians then I cannot point a finger at the other guys who thought the same when we

both

have been pointed out to be at wrong. I mean, we're both wrong.. we both made the same mistake, and it was I who started it even, so if he's ignorant I must be as much ignorant if not even more.

Sounds too complicated? Here's a much simpler example: There's a claimed but not yet mod-confirmed IC. I vote them and push them claiming I don't believe their claim. Someone else does the same. The mod comes in to confirm they are indeed an IC. I switch my vote to the other person because "they wanted to lynch the IC". How does that work?

So, what I think is CJV voting Lucky there is a projection of his own alignment. In his mind it is "I'm scum so he must be too". Let's not forget this is multi-ball, so if CJV is the SK he thinks Lucky is Mafia and vise versa.

Well, that was already said, explained and all. And it's why I'm waiting on a reaction from ceejay. And it's not coming...

What is your read on BlackStar? What is your read on Manatee, and why do you think he's being townread by some people? I don't get how anything he did was AI.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

What is your read on BlackStar? What is your read on Manatee, and why do you think he's being townread by some people? I don't get how anything he did was AI.

Nothing conclusive on Blackstar/Manatee, but I fancy the former as town for now. Why someone reads someone as X? I have no idea. Ask them.

Some of my reads are pure gut. Some are meta-based. Some are a mix of both, and some are for specific reasons. I currently am most interested in CJV as his disappearance under pressure is a semi-meta reason for me to further SR him.

Ok, sounds good.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Spoiler:

Can we lynch this guy already?

Not yet. I mean, I don't fancy lynching people for being annoying (Disclaimer: MM is

not

even annoying to me, but I'm talking in general). I like lynching people because they make sense -to me- as scum OR if they're confusing enough that lynching them either provides more info or prevents them from going to LyLo. Obviously none of these is the case here, so I would rather get CJV whom I do think is scum.

Now someone asked about the scum motivation about CJV's behaviour, and I say what's the TOWN!motive behind voting someone who did the same thing you did, only it was about your own talk which you both interpreted in a way that is different to how a 3rd person did.

Let me try and phrase it another way: Person A says they like amphibians such as crocodiles. Person B says amphibians' skin being used to produce bags, shoes, belts and what not in inhumane. Person C points out amphibians' skin is not used for that and accuses B of being ignorant. Person A then reiterates that

crocodile skin

is indeed used for such production. Person C points out B said "amphibians" and crocodiles aren't amphibians. Now obviously B was mislead by A's statement (who was also under the impression his initial statement was correct still). C restates his point that crocodiles aren't amphibians, and A goes "Oh! Got ya! I agree B is actually at fault".

Now, how does

ignorant

A fault B for following A's doubly-confessed-to-be intended meaning? If it slipped my mind that crocodiles are actually reptiles not amphibians then I cannot point a finger at the other guys who thought the same when we

both

have been pointed out to be at wrong. I mean, we're both wrong.. we both made the same mistake, and it was I who started it even, so if he's ignorant I must be as much ignorant if not even more.

Sounds too complicated? Here's a much simpler example: There's a claimed but not yet mod-confirmed IC. I vote them and push them claiming I don't believe their claim. Someone else does the same. The mod comes in to confirm they are indeed an IC. I switch my vote to the other person because "they wanted to lynch the IC". How does that work?

So, what I think is CJV voting Lucky there is a projection of his own alignment. In his mind it is "I'm scum so he must be too". Let's not forget this is multi-ball, so if CJV is the SK he thinks Lucky is Mafia and vise versa.

Very clever, but I think most people looked at it the wrong way.

I voted LuckyOtter for meta reasons. Everything was fine then.

LuckyOtter then explains why my vote on him was wrong.

Then UnrealSeal comes along. He votes LuckyOtter, but for reasons different for what I put forward, reasons which I feel come from not reading LuckyOtter's explanation on why my vote was wrong.

I voted UnrealSeal and told him I didn't understand his vote, and that LuckyOtter already provided what I had asked of him.

UnrealSeal then tells me he voted LuckyOtter for being deflective in his answer.

Finding his answer satisfactory, I switched back.

Why people had trouble comprehending this, idk.

Why did you switch back though? You said that Seal's answer was good. Also, what are your reads now?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I voted UnrealSeal and told him I didn't understand his vote, and that

LuckyOtter already provided what I had asked of him.

UnrealSeal then tells me he voted LuckyOtter for being deflective in his answer.

Finding his answer satisfactory,

I switched back

.

So, if Lucky "already provided what you had asked of him", why did you "switch back" to him then? Did you agree that Lucky was "being deflective in his answer" to Unreal? And do you think that is reason enough when he had "already provided what

you

had asked of him"?

I switched back because that was where my vite was earlier, and I wasn't really content with Lucky's answer.

It's like I asked a guy to bring me 5 apples and instead he brings me only 4.

I don't think Lucky is being deflective in his answer. I stopped voting Unreal because I understood why he was scumreading Lucky. It's up to the two of them to sort that out.

So, right now, what is your read on Otter and why?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

But that's not agreement. That's me saying I understood him. I "saw" his point. I didn't say "I agree with you" or "hey, you're actually right".

Then why did you switch back...???

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Sando v ceejay feels heavy T v T atm. Im gutreading both of them as town because of their tone.

So you believe the entire thing with Ceejay is a huge misunderstanding?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I had forgot this had ended lol. Thanks Korina for hosting, you were one of the funnest and funniest hosts I've ever seen

but sorry, cults are bastards.