Open 730: Donner Party [Terminado]

[AP]

But why not just ask the guy who you tr on whos scum? It will look like youre just trying to read the guy, rather than asking for an nk target.

OK. I'll just say "Hey, CJ.. considering X is scum who do you think their partner is? I'm just asking though, cuz I definitely am not the Vig and thus I don't know this guy's alignment, but I kinda want to assume this guy in particular is Mafia anyway, por favor."

P.S. Try to reread my posts to get the bigger picture.

[ceejayvinoya]

Hi I'm back.

LuckyOtter not being very engaged in this game is bothering me. I think he could be likely scum here.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

Is he usually active? Could you, if you have those games, post the link to games he was in to allow us to know his meta?

LuckyOtter has been more pro-town on a game I've played with him where I was scum, and that's like within the first 100 pages.

Here's his iso in that game.
viewtopic.php?p=10219293&user_select%5B ... #p10219293

Notice the difference in the quality of his posts I'm seeing here from there.

[ceejayvinoya]

But why not just ask the guy who you tr on whos scum? It will look like youre just trying to read the guy, rather than asking for an nk target.

OK. I'll just say "Hey, CJ.. considering X is scum who do you think their partner is? I'm just asking though, cuz I definitely am not the Vig and thus I don't know this guy's alignment, but I kinda want to assume this guy in particular is Mafia anyway, por favor."

P.S. Try to reread my posts to get the bigger picture.

Oh I think I see what you mean. Lols. You can't really get output from us because we'd never know that the guy you killed (assuming you're vig) is scum.

[AP]

@MM/@Sando:

The hypo "2nd scum if X is scum" is just a way to provide the Vig with more leads IF they need it. I mean, if the Vig already made up their mind that's fine and there's no need to do it. However, let's assume I am the Vig (

again:

HYPOTHETICAL ASSUMPTION

merely to get the point across

). Now let's say I got lucky and nailed a Mafioso on N1. Now I'm stuck and I'm not sure where to go next, but I do TR someone and want their advice. The problem is I can't ask them for their advice because I'll be outing myself. So, I'm proposing everyone does that unprompted (which is actually now prompted if we do agree to it), and I will have got the advice I need from that particular someone I need it from

without having to ask and out myself

.

Basically, the "hypoclaim" in this case is your thought about scum pairings? Because if you mean that everyone states who he thinks could be paired together, including dead people, this is a very good idea. I want that to be done, actually. Is it what you meant, or did I misunderstand hypoclaiming again?

I only meant "if X is scum their most likely p is A, if Y is scum their most likely p is B, and if Z is scum their most likely p is C". HOWEVER, you're taking it a step better, because then if the Vig had shot a townie and is now looking for advise they'd be given that too. It would also help them because whoever names the person the Vig killed as a different alignment than they really are (and known to the Vig) the Vig can disregard on the basis that the read is not reliable.

It goes beyond that, actually. Let's say the Vig noticed a crumb from the GS. Doing this will also allow the GS to pass a guilty on yo the Vig w/o outing themselves either. GREAT ADDITION.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hi I'm back.

LuckyOtter not being very engaged in this game is bothering me. I think he could be likely scum here.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

Is he usually active? Could you, if you have those games, post the link to games he was in to allow us to know his meta?

LuckyOtter has been more pro-town on a game I've played with him where I was scum, and that's like within the first 100 pages.

Here's his iso in that game.
viewtopic.php?p=10219293&user_select%5B ... #p10219293

Notice the difference in the quality of his posts I'm seeing here from there.

Wew. I would never have guessed he could play like that, actually. @LuckyOtter, try to exist more among us

[LuckyOtter]

So far CJ I just don't have much to latch onto. I put in my two cents in on the claiming/crumbing talk and I don't have any more to contribute on that front. If you filter it out there's not much else going on yet. In our game I had a pretty specific thing to focus on right away.

I know we played together so you have that meta, but if 'not being engaged' is what's bothering you, how do you feel about shizune, who has posted once to say hello, ask a question that was already answered, and not give a RVS vote?

Pedit: Same question to you wrt shizune, MM.

[ManateeDude]

So far CJ I just don't have much to latch onto. I put in my two cents in on the claiming/crumbing talk and I don't have any more to contribute on that front. If you filter it out there's not much else going on yet. In our game I had a pretty specific thing to focus on right away.

I know we played together so you have that meta, but if 'not being engaged' is what's bothering you, how do you feel about shizune, who has posted once to say hello, ask a question that was already answered, and not give a RVS vote?

I actually really like this response. The tone just gives me a gut villa read atm

[Marshmallow Marshall]

So far CJ I just don't have much to latch onto. I put in my two cents in on the claiming/crumbing talk and I don't have any more to contribute on that front. If you filter it out there's not much else going on yet. In our game I had a pretty specific thing to focus on right away.

I know we played together so you have that meta, but if 'not being engaged' is what's bothering you, how do you feel about shizune, who has posted once to say hello, ask a question that was already answered, and not give a RVS vote?

Pedit: Same question to you wrt shizune, MM.

Tbh, my feeling is "replacement"... The account is new, and I don't see anything AI (because there's one or two posts lol).

Your answer is quite satisfying in my opinion.

[UnrealSeal]

I get some town vibes from AP but I'm not ready to actually call him town yet. He's only posted theory so far with a votepark on himself, and has not done any actual scum/townhunting so far. I'd suggest wagoning the fuck out of him if his activity begins dropping once theory-crafting dies down.

MM feels very much like new!town with all the vote hopping. Not-Mafia's vote on him feels like a genuine Town!Not_Mafia vote but I think it's misplaced.

VOTE: LuckyOtter 105 is pretty bad (CJ's bothered because he has meta reads on you, not just because your disengaged. I don't think there's a way to misunderstand that without doing so purposefully) and the 82 vote feels rather opportunistic.

[ceejayvinoya]

Wtf is this. VOTE: UnrealSeal

You did read my post 92? I specifically said he wasn't being engaged. Otter's 105 is okay to me. What do you think is wrong about it?

[ceejayvinoya]

Right now my problem with you here @Otter, is that in our previous game, your first few votes actually makes sense and are progressive.

VOTE: ceejayvinoya like I should have last time.

Pedit: Damn you manatee

are you from the game where cee was super townie and explained his reads? Was he scum?

He was scum and I ended up listening to people instead of my gut.

Gut says AP is a good wagon.

VOTE: AP

VOTE: ceejayvinoya like I should have last time.

Pedit: Damn you manatee

are you from the game where cee was super townie and explained his reads? Was he scum?

He was scum and I ended up listening to people instead of my gut.

Gut says AP is a good wagon.

VOTE: AP

Let's be frank, no one is gonna waste time reading through a killed dude's ISO just to look for "possible crumbs". And with the person dead it's all WIFOM anyways. Crumbing is most useful to those who are still alive and want others to believe their claim.

Mmmm I dunno, honestly you're probably right D2, but D3 I think I'd be more likely to go crumbhunting. I'm thinking crumbing is better than hypoing in this scenario but I have no experience with hypoing so take that with a grain of salt. I just feel like hypoing might lead to more WIFOM than necessary

Did you just entirely sheep my views lol?

Nah just looking for a good wagon. Yours is better. VOTE: Marshmallow Marshall

So I was kinda disappointed when I saw these.

Mind telling me why Marsh is a good wagon atm?

[ceejayvinoya]

I know we played together so you have that meta, but if 'not being engaged' is what's bothering you, how do you feel about shizune, who has posted once to say hello, ask a question that was already answered, and not give a RVS vote?

Pedit: Same question to you wrt shizune, MM.

My problem with engagement is specifically about you.

Look at it this way. You and player X are in a game together. You see that player X is behaving differently compared to your last game together. Will you not wonder why?

I've never played with shizune before so I can't help there. Were going to have to see more.

[UnrealSeal]

Wtf is this. VOTE: UnrealSeal

You did read my post 92? I specifically said he wasn't being engaged. Otter's 105 is okay to me. What do you think is wrong about it?

do people in this game not having reading comprehension.

Your 92 does say he's not being engaged. You then go on to explain in 101 why you think this lack of engagement is a problem for Lucky specifically through your previous games with them. Unless I'm misinterpreting something there (which I don't think I am).

[ceejayvinoya]

Explain to me like I'm a 5th grader on why Otter's answer was bad because I still don't get it.

I called out Otter for not being engaged, which also implied that I have a meta on Otter.

Otter answers this, saying this here's different because the circumstances here are different, then he acknowledges the meta I have on him.

He then asks the question that since a lack of engagement is not bothering me, why am I not on shizune.

The only thing I think you're going into here is his lead on why am I not on shizune when we know full well that my read on Otter is meta.

This is excusable because he thinks that I read people based on their activity in the game so far, since my read on Otter this game is like my second post. I can see why Otter thinks it's a valid question to ask.

Why do you not have an opinion regarding the difference of his posts here and the game I linked? Or do you just don't think it's important?

[UnrealSeal]

This is excusable

because he thinks that I read people based on their activity in the game so far

, since my read on Otter this game is like my second post. I can see why Otter thinks it's a valid question to ask.

except Otter posted directly after your 101. i don't see how he could come to this conclusion when you made it clearly obvious that your problem with his engagement stemmed from previous experience. Whereas this is Shizune's first game on the site, so I presume you would not have experience with them.

Otter's answer seems deflective and that's my big problem with it.

[ceejayvinoya]

Darn I see your point.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

[ManateeDude]

Darn I see your point.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

What the hell is this 180

VOTE: CJV

Just for now.

[LuckyOtter]

I get some town vibes from AP but I'm not ready to actually call him town yet. He's only posted theory so far with a votepark on himself, and has not done any actual scum/townhunting so far. I'd suggest wagoning the fuck out of him if his activity begins dropping once theory-crafting dies down.

MM feels very much like new!town with all the vote hopping. Not-Mafia's vote on him feels like a genuine Town!Not_Mafia vote but I think it's misplaced.

VOTE: LuckyOtter 105 is pretty bad (CJ's bothered because he has meta reads on you, not just because your disengaged. I don't think there's a way to misunderstand that without doing so purposefully) and the 82 vote feels rather opportunistic.

I didn't misunderstand anything. He thinks I'm less engaged/purposeful in this game than the last. I explained why I'm not so engaged yet. I wanted to feel out how much of his suspicion is based on meta vs. lack of engagement (because his suspicion is based on at least some combination of both), and I just got my answer (it's the meta part. awesome, see below). I have other reasons for calling out shizune that will be apparent shortly.

I don't really want to get in a whole discussion about meta here, but maybe we have to. I have exactly one completed game on record. How can CJ, or you, be so sure that I will have the exact same strategy in the same alignment from my first newbie game to an open game? I'm still figuring things out. You and I have almost the same start date so you should get that. Personally, I find meta useless unless you have a lot of personal experience with the same person to be able to see overarching patterns that withstand different variables.
--
CJ I'll answer you in a bit, but I want to hear from Seal first what makes my vote on MM opportunistic, while NM's vote on MM is "genuine." What's the difference, and what's my strategy as scum?

[UnrealSeal]

Yes, people play differently from game to game but that doesn't mean previous experience with that player is worthless. If there are large discrepancies in play between games, it's worth prodding into.

Note, I said it was genuine for Not_Mafia. If it was anybody else people would be calling it out but it's fucking Not_Mafia. A naked vote from him means he's scum-reading somebody and I fully expect him to start shitposting "please lynch X" as the day goes on. He's sorted easily is what I mean.

Your 82 on the other hand reads like scum trying to pounce a weak town player, and not a genuine scumlean/scumread

[LuckyOtter]

Did you read through my last game? Does it feel like a large discrepancy? (CJ and Sando can weigh in on this, too). How much are you reading me for this game vs. CJ's meta read?

So you obviously understand the value of using votes to place some early pressure, because in your eyes that's what CJ is doing. But somehow, my vote on MM must be scummy because it is not a genuine scumread. I couldn't possibly just be trying to feel MM out, a person who you are not certain about either?

VOTE: UnrealSeal
--
CJ are you poking and prodding or is this a serious vote at this point?

[BlackStar]

This feels like TvT to me

[AP]

Darn I see your point.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

VOTE: CJV

So, you voted Unreal because you failed to get his logic. That was fine. Then you "got his point", so you unvoted, which was also fine.

But how the hell do you now vote Lucky for failing to understand Unreal's logic and -instead- taking it the way you yourself had intended it to be??? If you bloody didn't see your own point until someone else pointed it out to you, how can you fault another person for failing to see it too?

[AP]

This feels like TvT to me

If you mean Lucky vs Unreal, I think so too. CJV isn't though.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: ceejay

[ManateeDude]

This feels like TvT to me

Who are you referring to?