SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE

[DeasVail]

DV, what're your thoughts on Sheperd?

I’m on the road right now and have only skimmed their posts but they’re still on my potential scum pile.

I just want to lynch PP tbh

[MariaR]

lol I'm not attacking your points because they don't rise to the level of merit required of them to be attacked.

^^^

[ManWithNoName]

It was Civ V, and he was scum, so my point is terrible because I was wrong on so many accounts.

[Shoshin]

Sheperd, I think you're mischaracterizing why I unvoted. I didn't unvote because I suddenly believe PP is town. I unvoted because I didn't want him lynched while I reevaluate. But I never said I finished reevaluating. I still plan on reading that game to understand the context as well as reading other games.

The other reasons I gave for scumreading PP weren't the strongest points of my case. Taken alone, they're not enough to lynch him; it's the combination of points that increased probability enough for me to feel comfortable with his lynch.

The reason I suspect you is because you're subtly mischaracterizing what I'm saying in a way that helps you justify voting me and I don't think you'd mischaracterize me like that as town. If you were town, I'd have expected you to enter the game hoping I was town and looking for reasons to townread me, not scumread me. But what I'm seeing is the opposite. It seems like you already know I'm town, you know there's lots of paranoia about me floating around, and so I'm an easy mislynch.

Where am I going wrong there? Why should I townread you?[/quote]

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why are you so concerned with appearing town rather than just playing to a town wincon in order to just help town win?

Super Pro Tip, do town things, and town reads will follow, this much concern about being townread by people troubles me. It troubles me quite a bit.

I understand why you'd be concerned about this but you also need to understand where I'm coming from. Even the best townies get mislynched sometimes; being townread isn't always as simple as doing pro-town things, sometimes it's a matter of presenting your thought process in a way that allows others to understand how it comes from a town perspective.

I'm concerned about appearing town because I've been disengaged from the game to the point where there's an understandable amount of paranoia about my alignment, and when I started getting back into the game doing pro-town things, people still called me scum because I didn't have enough certainty and they didn't like my question-based approach.

My sense is that people are getting caught up in the way I'm presenting my thoughts instead of actually looking at what I'm saying, so I'm presenting basically the exact same information except in the form of cases. Like, I had said most of the stuff in my PP case before. There's not really much new stuff there. I just put the information together in a different way so that players who can't read between the lines see what I'm saying and are better able to understand my thought process.

does anyone here have experience with scum Shoshin? this post just ruined my scumread but it could be faked by someone with any sort of reasonable skill at doing so.

I just finished a game with scum!shoshin, and while it feels similar in terms of general content, the tone behind it is pretty different, especially in a post like this one. I also resonate a lot with the being disengaged but wanting to be townread. She was one of my townreads D1, and she still is. I think it's a huge mistake to go after her.

Also disagree with lynching Fire today. I agree he's the most likely Scum out of the 4 linked by roles, + Maria's claim, but if he's town, leaving him alive forces the mafia to either get copped or deal with him for us. We've got way less dangerous scummy lynches like PP. I'd also be ok with seeing Shepard swing. I had a weak town read on Nahdia but I really don't like how much Shepard has avoided commenting on PP directly and obviously I don't like his push on Shoshin. #chainsaw

Lol this is flawed as fuck and I need to see if it’s town flawed or scum flawed

If I comment on PP oh no! I am scum for not catching up!
If I comment on stuff other than PP oh no! Must be chainsaw for not talking about PP.

No one has answered the question I asked and no one has said it is a bad question Ergo the push is good.

Pretty blatant strawman. You can't just put words in my mouth and assume that if you commented on PP I would go after you for "not catching up". I wouldn't. You still haven't, despite clearly having time to go after Shoshin and the cop claims.

Like, I get that you want to spin this, but there's not a good way to spin the fact that you dodged talking about the leading wagon, especially since you started a counterwagon to it.

[Shoshin]

Commander, you are also OntheMark, right?

OTM is an alt too lol

[TehBrawlGuy]

Actually, I've made multiple posts entertaining this idea and questioning Maria/Fire as a pair, and it's driving me a bit crazy. Nobody seems interested too interested in that though...

I don't believe that town has 0 investigative roles so if nobody else says anything I don't think they can be a pair

pine was tracker neighbor, so we do have one flipped town investigative

obv. we don't know who his partner is and if they're town but he at least was

[ManWithNoName]

Commander, you are also OntheMark, right?

OTM is an alt too lol

I haven't played with his main.

[Shoshin]

MWNN, what do you think of the way Sheperd's mischaracterizing my unvote?

[ManWithNoName]

MWNN, what do you think of the way Sheperd's mischaracterizing my unvote?

I think the term mischaracterizing is thrown around all willy nilly. I think he might have misinterpreted, but have no evidence to say he was lying about your motivations in general.

Also, with my clarification that I was thinking about a scumgame of Shepard's alternate alt.

VOTE: Fire Assassin

[Shoshin]

That's semantics, MWNN. Look at how Sheperd interprets this post:

I unvoted because the game he linked shows him questioning townreads so I want to reevaluate without him getting lynched.

He subtly misinterprets my meaning in this post by emphasizing the "reevaluate" part of the post while ignoring the parts where I say I haven't reevaluated yet and want to do so without PP getting lynched.

Then he "scumreads" me under the logic that I unvoted because of a "fake reevaluation." And Sheperd himself notes that if he were scum he could have come into the game and hammered PP, so my reason for unvoting should have been very sensible to Sheperd because he himself was aware of the potential for scum to hammer PP. But instead he scumreads me for it?

I know you don't know my history with Sheperd but I'll say this much - there's enough history that he wouldn't come into the game looking to scumread me if he were town, he's be looking to townread me. But instead it seems like he's pre-inclined to scumread me more than townread me and that's very concerning.

[DeasVail]

Regarding Fire, I do struggle to see the cop guilty fiasco coming from scum but I’m happy to hear arguments as to why scum comes up with such a convoluted plan.

[Shoshin]

So why would one post destroy your entire scumread on PP? And if it did why focus exclusively on someone to the exclusion of all others if your case is that bad?

Look at these questions, MWNN. How are these not evidence that Sheperd is pre-inclined to read me as scum?

[Punreader]

I think im suffering from Too Many Townreads actually

It happens.
The answer is to cross the bridge later. Focus on the players you're not townreading. When everyone you're not townreading is dead, you'll presumably have had pun flips. And from the pun flips, you can then further revisit your previous townreads and see which of them were justified and which of them, given the new information you have available, were mistaken.

In other words, you cannot expect read perfection until you have more flips than we currently possess.

On second thought, I don't want another replacement to muddy the waters here.
VOTE: Nahdia

Speaking as a player who specializes in turning punread town slots into strong townreads. I do. Especially when the Nahdia wagon reeks of being a pun counterwagon to the PenguinPower wagon.

And speaking as a player who's lost town games before due to waffling over scum-slots that have had 2+ replacements in them
I'd rather not.
But if you have a case for that slot or reason why we should wait, then I want to hear it. Plus, I don't get your scumread on

MNWW

.

I can answer this, but it will be without any semblance of tact or diplomacy:
If you punread a slot correctly and then change that read due to a replacement in the slot, the fault lies in

you

, not the replacement. (It's a little more ambiguous if you townread a slot correctly and then change that read due to a replacement in the slot; I'd lean towards the fault lying more on the replacement, but not ALL on the replacement.)

If you punread a slot incorrectly and then change that read due to a replacement in the slot, then the replacement was worth obtaining.

If you punread a slot correctly and then the replacement reinforces that read, you then have further evidence to support your case for lynching them.

In every scenario, there is nothing inherently bad about waiting for a slot to be replaced, whereas there is significant chance of good to come from it particularly given that statistically speaking, you are more likely to be wrong than right in punreads (there's more town than pun in a game).

The case against the slot did not resonate with me at all, and felt like a huge stretch; the slot is a townread based off of my experience with both occupants of it. This is the play I'd expect both from ActionDan as town, and from Nahdia as town.

As far as Man With No Name goes, the punread there is due to him inheriting the slot of Screenplay.

[ManWithNoName]

So why would one post destroy your entire scumread on PP? And if it did why focus exclusively on someone to the exclusion of all others if your case is that bad?

Look at these questions, MWNN. How are these not evidence that Sheperd is pre-inclined to read me as scum?

I just think there's a big difference between misrepresenting something and being mistaken. I don't think there is enough in that one post to make the leap to misrepresentation and lynch him based on it.

[Punreader]

-

Acknowledge and dislike the fact that

Pun

shits out a bunch of content only to disappear for the next 2-3 days

This is easily shown to be site-wide, and you'll be seeing another such disappearance this weekend. This is indicative not of my alignment but of my life. Those disappearances are not strategic; they are simply me playing during the times I can play and not playing during the times I cannot.

This is not a new trend; it is a trend which has been there the whole game and also a trend which you can look into my previously completed game on this account (mhsmith's mini theme with the cops) and confirm was present there just as much (if not stronger; mhsmith almost force-replaced me at one point because of my misunderstanding regarding prod rules).

side note: Maria may have been right about Nahdia. sorry Shepard. if you're town though, i promise i'll figure it out.

Chara, are you aware of who Commander Shepherd's main is? I know who he is and I can tell you this is par for the course.

[Punreader]

I'm highly suspect of

Fire

at this point

Suspect him all you want.

He is objectively a terrible lynch today because we have two cop claims; if both

are

town (and yes I realize people doubt this but it is not impossible), then pun's only option is to deal with them during the night, lest they both produce more results.

I am telling you now that if we lynch Fire Assassin today and he flips town the entire punteam will be on that wagon and I will lynch exclusively from the players on it, for precisely this reason.

Now I admit, there is a significant chance Fire Assassin is just pun, but this changes nothing.

If he is pun fakeclaiming cop, he still has to produce results every day, or be lynched when he fails to do so.

So we wait.

We give him, at minimum, one day phase.

Correct play in a theme game such as this is not to lynch a cop claim and if the cop flips town lynch the other cop claim; correct play in a theme game is to not lynch either cop claim and let them investigate for a night, and then off of those investigation results, revisit and reevaluate every day on whether to lynch one of the cops and if so which one.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm highly suspect of

Fire

at this point

Suspect him all you want.

He is objectively a terrible lynch today because we have two cop claims; if both

are

town (and yes I realize people doubt this but it is not impossible), then pun's only option is to deal with them during the night, lest they both produce more results.

I am telling you now that if we lynch Fire Assassin today and he flips town the entire punteam will be on that wagon and I will lynch exclusively from the players on it, for precisely this reason.

Now I admit, there is a significant chance Fire Assassin is just pun, but this changes nothing.

If he is pun fakeclaiming cop, he still has to produce results every day, or be lynched when he fails to do so.

So we wait.

We give him, at minimum, one day phase.

Correct play in a theme game such as this is not to lynch a cop claim and if the cop flips town lynch the other cop claim; correct play in a theme game is to not lynch either cop claim and let them investigate for a night, and then off of those investigation results, revisit and reevaluate every day on whether to lynch one of the cops and if so which one.

This is a fucking good post.

[Chara]

Chara, are you aware of who Commander Shepherd's main is? I know who he is and I can tell you this is par for the course.

i know Shepard very well.

[Chara]

Regarding Fire, I do struggle to see the cop guilty fiasco coming from scum but I’m happy to hear arguments as to why scum comes up with such a convoluted plan.

this is one of many of Deas's posts that make me wonder how open he is to any lynch that might have traction.
Maria's vaguely town and Fire's vaguely scum in his last look at the 'cop claims', but there's some mild heat on Fire so Deas is still interested.
combined with my earlier feelings and my scumread hasn't really abated one bit.

[Chara]

switch Maria and Fire in my last post.

[Chara]

If you were town, I'd have expected you to enter the game hoping I was town and looking for reasons to townread me, not scumread me.

why do you think this?

[Chara]

and i'm not looking for the answer you already gave of having a history, i'm asking why a town Shepard would be "looking for" reasons to townread you as opposed to just looking at your play and reacting accordingly to it.

[MariaR]

Chara why can you never read me correctly like I can you

[MariaR]

You're breaking my heart </3