Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[the worst]

I'm not voting for Nauci?

[the worst]

thought I did at SOD. just checked my ISO. space cadet mode rn.

VOTE: Nauci

[brassherald]

As I referenced earlier, been a bit sick today, so, tomorrow I should be back to my normal cheerful self, here's your fact: Originally, there was concern that the president would simply become a new king, so several plans were considered for the executive branch, including three presidents with one year terms each and one president for life before our current structure of one president for four year terms.

Votecount 2.3

the worst(3)

~ Nauci, Errantparabola, skitter30

momrangal (1)

~ Bernie Sanders

Shoshin (1)

~ Gustavo

Not_Mafia(1)

~ Irrelephant11

skitter30 (1)

~ shoshin

Nauci (1)

~ the worst

Not Voting (4): BlackVoid, Momrangal, Not_Mafia,Keyser Soze

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-15 20:30:00)

Mod Notes

Momrangal and Gustavo are VLA

[Nauci]

Lmao did I just see half a page of "Nauci is trying extremely hard this game but nothing town besides that"?

Because lol fuck off

What do you want from me besides trying incredibly hard all game: the first letter from all of my posts spell out my role pm?

I hate this bullshit kind of "but it feeeeels off" without actually pointing to any single thing

[Keyser Söze]

the worst's D1 read on Gamma

"I like Gamma better than Mom ATM from that bottom reads list. Both are not easy reads."

TW acknowledges Gamma was a hard slot to read early D1 (agreed), and that he likes him over Mom.

"kinda not an easy question to answer right now but maybe something like Mom > Gamma > Nauci right now, but my scumreads are currently the slots I also feel the most bland about...which has me realising I'll be deeply boring until I have more time"

Scum-Gamma is still in the mix.

"Keen for your Mom and Gamma reads"

TW asks Nauci for her read on Mom, Gamma. Would make sense if they're all in TW's bottom 3... but I haven't actually heard much about TW's own suspicion of Gamma...

Gamma votes TW...

"scum with 1+ of the other people he's shaded in 1294."

TW votes Gamma to L-1 and adds some pre-flip associations. Then unvotes promising a catch-up. The timing is bad because there was not much substancial support to this vote (the supporting detail comes next):

"also Gamma has watched scum!me and knows lurking is not scum indicative for me."

Ok, this adds some valid padding to support his suspicion.

"1218 WIFOMy as fuck but I actually kinda agree that Gamma's scumflip spews Gustavo as town."

Some more pre-flip association analysis for a Gamma scum-flip... it appears like TW is working this through in his head.

"1231 doesn't feel like town reacting to a case scum is making on them."

Sounds like a legit angle.

"hard read: Gamma and Gustavo are not the same alignment."

Not sure I understand this stance. Why not both town? I could understand doubting scum theatre between the two, but why does one of them need to be scum?

"........same"

TW agrees with Mathdino's "I still think a Gamvote is right" comment.

"besides honestly that's just the wrong track. Gamma is just not town here, and it's seriously gross the way you're pussyfooting around his lynch."

TW aggressively suspicious of Nauci's behaviour around the Gamma wagon. This does work into TW's apparent Nauci/Gamma scum reads.

"this makes me want to revote x("

TW close to revoting Gamma - TW disliking Gamma's accusation of OMGUS.

"> calls Gamma and Nauci partners
> Gamma and Nauci start a PL wagon at EOD to avert from Gamwagon
this is almost too good
almost"

This is cute. Does TW scum read Nauci more than Gamma here though?

"QFT"

Agrees with Not_Mafia's point about Gamma not being noob but being "desperate" (scum).

"more importantly it flips red"

Votes Gamma. Sounds confident here.

"I'm still really not feeling the notion that the Gamma wagon is on town. :/"

TW also disliking skitter's idea that this wagon looks like a wagon town.



[I personally didn't like the timing of TW's first vote on Gamma. But when TW started to add the supporting reasons/engaging with Gamma one-on-one, it did help to show that this scum read was more sincere. I'm still unsettled how TW intertwined the Gamma scum read alongside his passionate scum read of Nauci. Nauci was probably not a viable D1 lynch, so that goes in TW's favour, in explaining his decision to push harder with the Gamma lynch at EoD. I felt like TW should have demonstrated more ownership of the Nauci wagon on D2 too - Nauci has just become one of a couple possible "scumf**ks", but I see TW has now voted Nauci... This has kind of developed a TW-Nauci paranoia association case in my head now (two slots I wasn't even scum reading at the end of D1! And makes no sense with my current suspicion on Mom/Bernie Sanders). I think I may need to look at Nauci's side before jumping to conclusions, as TW's scum read of Nauci may be completely genuine/accurate in isolation.]

[Errantparabola]

Alright, fine. Gustavo is town.

VOTE: Skitter

just wanna say that I think that in a vacuum (thats a big qualifier, just in a vacuum) this reaction is traditionally pretty standard scummy
Like it's that very common TvS sequence:
S: I think T is scum
T: No you're wrong, here's me doing some towny things, also S, you're scum
S: Okay never mind T is town

Part of me is like “wow effort! Nauci is probs town” but agreed that not much else makes me townread her, if anything

this seems like an interesting statement... idk if its consistent with how I've seen your thought processes this game, i gotta say

[Shoshin]

just wanna say that I think that in a vacuum (thats a big qualifier, just in a vacuum) this reaction is traditionally pretty standard scummy
Like it's that very common TvS sequence:
S: I think T is scum
T: No you're wrong, here's me doing some towny things, also S, you're scum
S: Okay never mind T is town

It's also a common TvT sequence:

T1: I think T2 is scum
T2: No you're wrong, here's me doing some towny things, also T1, you're scum
T1: Okay never mind T2 is town

Like, it's the basic scumhunting pattern that happens in nearly every game. In fact, it happened earlier when Stun (Gustavo's predecessor) said I was scum, I called him on it, and then Stun quickly came around to saying I was town. Remember that?

Why bring this up now when there's multiple examples of the same pattern throughout the game?

[Irrelephant11]

@errant How is it inconsistent?

@blackvoid all questions you directed to me have been answered. :thumbs up:

@nauci while it’s tempting to go re-read the first letter of all your posts... You’re certainly working hard, but I know from experience that you put in hard work as both alignments. You only got replaced that game because you spent too long writing too many words (as scum)! Off the top of my head though I can’t think of anything that comes from town-you more likely than it comes from scum-you. Sorry if that’s insulting, but it’s certainly notable that two other people said they felt the same way unprompted. I’ll have more to say about your alignment when I ISO you later

@Not_Mafia any chance you wanna vote someone?

[skitter30]

Shoshin what are your thoughts on the worst and the ppl voting him

Skitter's vote was pretty bad.

because ... ?

--

BlackVoid replaces Mathdino.

hi hi hi

super happy you repped in

--

She's town because she shaded you when you joined her on Mom? That reasoning doesn't make much sense. Why is her instinct to shade someone who agrees with her? If anything, wouldn't that suggest that she had no conviction in Mom flipping scum?

because i don't understand why he's scumreading her now for a whole slew of things that i pointed out yesterday that he ignored then. like if he finds these things in mom's play scummy when he looks through them today i don't understand why he didn't find them scummy yesterday.

I definitely feel like I let Mom go easy after finding a couple reasons to townread her D1

right, this is exactly what i'm having a problem with

It's not suspect to reevaluate reads after a flip (if anything, the opposite) so it's odd that Skitter would call you out for reevaluating Mom in the opening stages of D2. And I'm especially concerned about that analysis because she agrees with the conclusion you came to. It's just hard to imagine a townie suspecting you for that.

i find it suspect because he ignored the scummy actions yesterday when i was trying to get a mom wagon going and handwaved them away by saying 'i townread her' and that's one of the main reasons why the mom wagon didn't take place

given that gamma flipped town i don't understand why there would be *soooooo* much resistance to town!mom's wagon yesterday; i couldn't get it to have more than three votes at any given time.

i very much think that gamma was a cw to someone and i'm suspicious of people who couldn't and/or wouldn't vote her yesterday for ill-defined reasons - irrelephant fits that bill. i don't get why things that were not sketchy yesterday to him he finds sketchy today.

--

i think i'm going to try to read you by seeing how much we mindmeld

posts from after you catchup will count more than posts made during your catchup because i'm incredibly paranoid and i don't know how much of my posting you read before replacing in and we talked about how you'd play scum in that hydra game

so far good signs in a general sense tho

--

"I'm still really not feeling the notion that the Gamma wagon is on town. :/"
TW also disliking skitter's idea that this wagon looks like a wagon town.

ftr, this is a bad sign because we tend to mindmeld as tvt and he knows that i have a *very* good sense of this sort of thing

[Errantparabola]

Either i’m very out of touch or youre greatly exaggerating how often that sort of thing happens? If i caught stungun’s interaction i’d have probably called it scummy too

Almost every action in the game has a towny and scummy interpretation it just so happens that the TvS interpretation for that specific one happens to be a very plausible one

[Keyser Söze]

Irrelephant11's D1 read on Gamma

"Shoshin are you townreading gamma"

Irrelephant likes Shoshin, so obviously interested in getting their take on a player that interests him.

"Gamma Emerald - Done next to nothing towny all game. Scummy."

Not necessarily alignment indicative... but ok, I can accept that as a reason to scum read Gamma's behaviour.

"I mean I would love your thoughts on Keyser Soze, skitter30, mathdino, gamma emerald"

The correct players to ask someone's opinion on.

"I'm somewhat townreading Gamma at this stage fwiw"

Wow, quite an interesting statement to put out there... surely scum-Irrelephant keeps Gamma in his null/scum lean pile. A point in Irrelephant's favour: Irrelephant has been transparent about every read and suspicion so far, going on and off the same player, U-turns, providing scum-cases, this isn't a scum player opening up avenues on every player (as evident by the sheer amount of scum team theories Irrelephant has expressed!) this is town-Irrelephant actively sorting every player, and revising their reads/theories. I can see town-frustration when people are ignoring/not sheeping his scum cases too (but still redirects our attention to them) which is good, honest town-play. I actually like Irrelephant keep reminding everyone of their scum read/case on me. Sometimes I don't understand where his vote comes from in relation to his reads (such as his unexpected D1 Bernie vote)... but I just see this as part of his ongoing game-solving.

"525, 571, 717, 884, and the second-to-last sentence in 1128 are my townread on Gamma"

Irrelephant backing up his "townread" on Gamma... I personally feel "townread" is suprising.

"It’s not as strong as I thought it was now that I lay it out, hmm"

Good, honest admission.

"Null-reading Mathdino, Bernie Sanders, Gamma Emerald"

Irrelephant revises his read on Gamma.

"Also Gamma if you’re town now’s your chance to help, share as many thoughts as you can on as many people as you can before getting lynched please and thanns"

Actually wants Gamma to open up and share his thoughts.

"I’m guessing at least two if not all three scum are in {Gamma, Bernie, people voting for Gamma or Bernie}"

More evidence of Irrelephant's bold pre-flip VCA.

"K I’m fine with a Gamma lynch. He’s gotten worse under pressure and my reason for ever having a townread will either be proven or disproven before the lynch goes through. He definitely hasn’t been super helpful, and in his last dozen/two dozen posts he fees less like town trying to help make his own lynch worthwhile and more like scum trying to hide associatives"

I feel Gamma left it too late sadly to finally open up and play on the offensive. So I can see how Irrelephant could read Gamma's behaviour like this.

"My fav wagon in the running, and we need a lynch"

Irrelephant votes and puts Gamma to L-1.

"To clarify I don't disagree that you've shared some reads, Gamma, but a v pro-town thing you can do before getting lynched is to share a clear "here's how I'm reading everyone, use this info in case of my death" and your refusal to do so when asked is scummy."

Pro-town suggestion from Irrelephant. Could have just kept piling on the pressure, restricting Gamma to be defense-mode.

"agreed."

Irrelephant would like to see Gamma's flip. I kind of believe this, as it sounds like Gamma's flip would help him with his other reads too.

[Gustavo]

Either i’m very out of touch or youre greatly exaggerating how often that sort of thing happens? If i caught stungun’s interaction i’d have probably called it scummy too

Almost every action in the game has a towny and scummy interpretation it just so happens that the TvS interpretation for that specific one happens to be a very plausible one

FTR stun never voted sho, so she’s definitely misrepping yet again.

Sho voted me twice, twice I make great posts and she backs off.

Shos is scum. You should vote her. Everyone should.
Nauci is good also. There is no crumb in her posts like she said.

They are probably a pair

[Keyser Söze]

Bernie Sanders' D1 read on Gamma

"in the most general sense I'm more interested in {invis, TW, skitter, NSG, nauci and momr} than the rest here, though that's putting GE and math both completely aside for a bit (not that they aren't okay but)"

Gamma wasn't in Bernie Sanders' immediate FoS pile, but still within his scope.

"Gamma emerald you've had to like osmosis absorb at least something of what's going on by now with how much you're reading"

Bernie Sanders trying to draw out some thoughts from Gamma.

"scum gamma is starting to be possible given he still hasnt dropped the tells I expect"

Bernie Sanders suggesting scum-Gamma to the group (meta reasons).

"I'd probably look to invis or gamma if you have no idea where to start"

Suggests for TW (his scum read who he is voting for) to look at Invisiblity and Gamma.

"I have to go to bed but this wagon is pretty overdue by now"

Bernie Sanders votes Gamma. He feels it's the right time. Was Bernie now happy with TW? How about some thoughts on Nauci (lead wagon at the time...)

"Overall gamma's been playing to his scum meta so far (not really that interested in the gamestate or making conclusions from his questioning)"

Bernie Sanders does sound convinced of Gamma's scum meta.

Now gamma, him starting to engage and ask questions now after it being brought up so often and so hard and giving content after essentially having it beaten out of him and even then it's really not great. idk if he's really actually interested in his questions and pursuing his leads or kinda just talking and if his approach is really to find scum or just look interested and do what people expect. the activity thing, reads based on checking profiles is probably the best thing out of him altogether as far as scumhunting but even then at this point and lacking so much else I can see scum getting to that point mentally of thinking of how to look like scumhunting given somehow just not seeing any good points or whatever else and like "oh I could check the activity". funnily enough normally I'd really townread it, as a supplementary thing to substance reads it'd be going the mile beyond and a huge tell IMO, but as the primary just "thing you're doing" and justification for tw vote meh. but again there's the problem that it's actually potentially just true about TW wrt this game and again there have been some anti-team-tells which means I have to be wrong on one of them. finally I can't judge as to AI but its throwing me off how unfazed he seems to be about his wagon and not even really counterwagoning himself (though its possible momrs scum and idk maybe not comfortable justifying scumread on me?) but doing tw vote.

In context with wagons though gamma has been fairly easy and most people he'd be with would really be hanging him out to dry in a way that doesn't make sense. I actually think momrangal is probably the best vote here; if gamma is scum I think she's almost certainly counterwagoning but if gamma is town I think she's still in a good position to push on me for being on it with her off. I think skitter and nauci are probably town onto her and finally if gamma is town I could see her potentially being with the worst as an alternative (TW scumread mom and voted for pressure but seemed to lose interest)

VOTE: momrangal

My lynch priority is something like

momrangal > N_M > Gamma Emerald > TW > Errant > (over math and then over anyone else)

fact that I probably have to be wrong on either gamma or tw in spite of everything makes it kinda hard to justify going there (I think better EV move is lynch outside and really try to find probably source of misread and townread him ideally if I get the chance)

Sounds like Bernie Sanders has convinced himself that Gamma is not the way to go.

"Anyways I think this wagon is kinda bad and if I was around I'd have pushed way harder for momrangal which I think is superior lynch atm.
Gamma isn't very impressive but I don't actually see that much scum motivation in him and he's kinda being the opposite of survivalistic here"

Definite cold feet here.

"Again I think even if gamma is is scum it's essentially always with momrangal but right now momrangal-the worst looks more of a scum thing."

Scum-mom outweighs scum-Gamma here.

"Although in some ways moreso than gamma himself the wagon feels kind of lazy"

Lazy wagon = wagon on town surely?

"Though to some extent even if its gamma-mom I'd prefer to lynch mom scum first anyways because there I wouldn't have to deal with annoying association spec"

Bernie wants to lynch mom first... Bernie Sanders is gettin overworked with the associations now.

"So this awkward but I just did some meta skim due diligence on gamma and he might just actually be scum >___>"

Presents arguments for Scum-Gamma via meta. This intrigued me alot at the time.

"just finished with gamma scum in it
actually gamma I think you should claim"

Bernie has seen enough meta evidence. It's been a strange read development from Bernie on Gamma. Perhaps too overworded...?

"a bit strange given id expect at least one townread on someone you mesh with or think has good thoughts (here your townreads are all voting you lol)"

Bernie challenges Gamma on the validity of his town reads.

Bernie hammers Gamma. There was a lot of flip-flopping on the Gamma lynch by BS, I honestly don't know what to make of that. Would scum-Bernie not want to make such a dramatic scene at EoD over Gamma to ensure the misslynch? I need help here. Is it alignment indicative for BS?



[I want Bernie to talk about TW today.]

[Irrelephant11]

Haha what

What?

Hahahahahaha

At this point im confused if Gustavo and i are reading the same game

Nauci did not suggest that she has

actually

crumbed a role, she said “what more do you want, an obvious crumb of my role?”
But also, how would this even be AI?

Hahahahahaha
Like if Gustavo is scum his strategy seems to be “say things that are clearly untrue with bravado and everyone will ignore you” which I reallly really like as a scumstrategy because it’s hilarious


Though if Shoshin and Nauci are a pair I will be v upset

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: The worst
I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though.
I was going to hard insist mom today actually but 1746 is legitimately scummy from duck here.
FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

[Gustavo]

Serious vote though, VOTE: Gamma Emerald for 100% 4/4 fluff posting

Terrible. Not a good reason for a serious vote.

VOTE: The Worst

I honestly couldn't decide where to throw my vote but then I read this

hey now you don't tell me what to do!

Also this only brings you to -2

1. Opportunistic as hell
2. Terrible reason to vote somebody

VOTE: Irrelephant11

Serious vote.

Don’t have time to read the reasons but Irrelephant11 was already voting nauci.

VOTE: not_mafia

Policy lynch vote? Really?

I'll vote with 2 of my town reads while I wait VOTE: momrangal

Late day 1 this is not acceptable

Let's start with the fact that VOTE: Mathdino you jerk come in here and actually post the catch up you promised several times

Clearly math stopped playing this game. A better vote could have been placed.

Here seems decent while I still don't have time to catch up

VOTE: the worst

Yet another terrible vote.

Not a single protown vote all game imo

[Bernie Sanders]

Actually should probably do mom anyways.

[the worst]

ftr, this is a bad sign because we tend to mindmeld as tvt and he knows that i have a *very* good sense of this sort of thing

this is a bad sign because I have a feeling you can immitate this kind of thing as scum, and I had literally no success in working out where you were coming from on this angle.. :/

[Gustavo]

Nauci did not suggest that she has actually crumbed a role, she said “what more do you want, an obvious crumb of my role?”

My bad. I misread

[Gustavo]

Instead of laughing at me just point out my mistake. Don’t be an asshat

[Gustavo]

This is the bullshit I’m taking about. Not only does nobody see glaring scum, they ignore blatant misreps, take cheap jabs, and make fun of me. Sorry I’m human. I make mistakes.

Fuck this shit

[the worst]

I'll do Nauci>Skitter>Mom I think

[the worst]

VOTE: The worst
I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though.
I was going to hard insist mom today actually but 1746 is legitimately scummy from duck here.
FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

dude come on

[Bernie Sanders]

You can live today if you vote momrangal.

[Irrelephant11]

This is the bullshit I’m taking about. Not only does nobody see glaring scum, they ignore blatant misreps, take cheap jabs, and make fun of me. Sorry I’m human. I make mistakes.

Fuck this shit

Oh geez

No, I’m sorry. I really don’t want this to come across as personal. Regardless of what I think about your play style, your alignment, etc. I’m not laughing at you. I still don’t know your alignment, and considering scum-you was funny there (especially so because i generally agree you’re much more likely town). Anyway. If I’ve offended you, i really am sorry. I’m having fun, and want that to be true for all of us. Seems like I overstepped and maybe made this less fun for you. Sorry about that, Gustavo.

I’m gonna take a break for like 12, maybe 18 hours.