Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Keyser Söze]

Mom is town tho

Do you think Mom is scum now who pocketed you?

IMO it would be more useful to ask questions w/o feeding potential answers in the same stroke, just a side note.

True in general case, but in this case, I was using TW’s very own words.

[the worst]

i'd more or less already answered that yeah

[Nauci]

My apologies.

I promise to go back to actual reading today or tomorrow!

[Shoshin]

math's probably better, but bv has a pretty strong track record too i think in recent months

You hydra'd with him, so I'm trusting he knows you pretty well.

[Shoshin]

BV's catchup has been pretty townie, too.

[Shoshin]

He's one of the active players I don't have a townread on based on their early posting. Can you elaborate what you were thinking here?

I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at this point but if you're still concerned about Irrelephant when you've caught up, I'll revisit him.

[Momrangal]

Bernie Sanders' D1 read on Gamma

"in the most general sense I'm more interested in {invis, TW, skitter, NSG, nauci and momr} than the rest here, though that's putting GE and math both completely aside for a bit (not that they aren't okay but)"

Gamma wasn't in Bernie Sanders' immediate FoS pile, but still within his scope.

"Gamma emerald you've had to like osmosis absorb at least something of what's going on by now with how much you're reading"

Bernie Sanders trying to draw out some thoughts from Gamma.

"scum gamma is starting to be possible given he still hasnt dropped the tells I expect"

Bernie Sanders suggesting scum-Gamma to the group (meta reasons).

"I'd probably look to invis or gamma if you have no idea where to start"

Suggests for TW (his scum read who he is voting for) to look at Invisiblity and Gamma.

"I have to go to bed but this wagon is pretty overdue by now"

Bernie Sanders votes Gamma. He feels it's the right time. Was Bernie now happy with TW? How about some thoughts on Nauci (lead wagon at the time...)

"Overall gamma's been playing to his scum meta so far (not really that interested in the gamestate or making conclusions from his questioning)"

Bernie Sanders does sound convinced of Gamma's scum meta.

Now gamma, him starting to engage and ask questions now after it being brought up so often and so hard and giving content after essentially having it beaten out of him and even then it's really not great. idk if he's really actually interested in his questions and pursuing his leads or kinda just talking and if his approach is really to find scum or just look interested and do what people expect. the activity thing, reads based on checking profiles is probably the best thing out of him altogether as far as scumhunting but even then at this point and lacking so much else I can see scum getting to that point mentally of thinking of how to look like scumhunting given somehow just not seeing any good points or whatever else and like "oh I could check the activity". funnily enough normally I'd really townread it, as a supplementary thing to substance reads it'd be going the mile beyond and a huge tell IMO, but as the primary just "thing you're doing" and justification for tw vote meh. but again there's the problem that it's actually potentially just true about TW wrt this game and again there have been some anti-team-tells which means I have to be wrong on one of them. finally I can't judge as to AI but its throwing me off how unfazed he seems to be about his wagon and not even really counterwagoning himself (though its possible momrs scum and idk maybe not comfortable justifying scumread on me?) but doing tw vote.

In context with wagons though gamma has been fairly easy and most people he'd be with would really be hanging him out to dry in a way that doesn't make sense. I actually think momrangal is probably the best vote here; if gamma is scum I think she's almost certainly counterwagoning but if gamma is town I think she's still in a good position to push on me for being on it with her off. I think skitter and nauci are probably town onto her and finally if gamma is town I could see her potentially being with the worst as an alternative (TW scumread mom and voted for pressure but seemed to lose interest)

VOTE: momrangal

My lynch priority is something like

momrangal > N_M > Gamma Emerald > TW > Errant > (over math and then over anyone else)

fact that I probably have to be wrong on either gamma or tw in spite of everything makes it kinda hard to justify going there (I think better EV move is lynch outside and really try to find probably source of misread and townread him ideally if I get the chance)

Sounds like Bernie Sanders has convinced himself that Gamma is not the way to go.

"Anyways I think this wagon is kinda bad and if I was around I'd have pushed way harder for momrangal which I think is superior lynch atm.
Gamma isn't very impressive but I don't actually see that much scum motivation in him and he's kinda being the opposite of survivalistic here"

Definite cold feet here.

"Again I think even if gamma is is scum it's essentially always with momrangal but right now momrangal-the worst looks more of a scum thing."

Scum-mom outweighs scum-Gamma here.

"Although in some ways moreso than gamma himself the wagon feels kind of lazy"

Lazy wagon = wagon on town surely?

"Though to some extent even if its gamma-mom I'd prefer to lynch mom scum first anyways because there I wouldn't have to deal with annoying association spec"

Bernie wants to lynch mom first... Bernie Sanders is gettin overworked with the associations now.

"So this awkward but I just did some meta skim due diligence on gamma and he might just actually be scum >___>"

Presents arguments for Scum-Gamma via meta. This intrigued me alot at the time.

"just finished with gamma scum in it
actually gamma I think you should claim"

Bernie has seen enough meta evidence. It's been a strange read development from Bernie on Gamma. Perhaps too overworded...?

"a bit strange given id expect at least one townread on someone you mesh with or think has good thoughts (here your townreads are all voting you lol)"

Bernie challenges Gamma on the validity of his town reads.

Bernie hammers Gamma. There was a lot of flip-flopping on the Gamma lynch by BS, I honestly don't know what to make of that. Would scum-Bernie not want to make such a dramatic scene at EoD over Gamma to ensure the misslynch? I need help here. Is it alignment indicative for BS?



[I want Bernie to talk about TW today.]

I made a case on bernie scum, and essentially (i completely overlooked it) but this is a little odd.

From your point of view, we're either scum together, hes scum saving me for tomorrow (today) or hes town being pretty erratic.

SoD i feel like i saw bernie explain that he was worried about me getting flash wagoned while i was V/LA but still hard pushing for my lynch before i could even get back from it.

I'm feeling a little betrayed by elephant but i feel like this points to his mindset being fencesitty while not actually looking like such

[Shoshin]

I'm feeling a little betrayed by elephant but i feel like this points to his mindset being fencesitty while not actually looking like such

Betrayed? Interesting word choice. Can you elaborate on this?

[Momrangal]

Elephant is a town read, and i feel like hes succumbing to a bit of paranoia. I dont really like it when i have pretty confident townreads and i cant really work with them

[Bernie Sanders]

Momrangals first focus here on a townread somewhat betraying(?) her rather than on who is scum or analyzing anything given gamma flipped is no bueno.

[skitter30]

i was thinking more that she has nothing interesting to say about the fact that she was wagoned while she was gone, but same idea

[Bernie Sanders]

IDK if that's talking about irrelephant or actually keysor soze which is kind of confusing

[Momrangal]

i don't want the day to end before bv catches up btw

i don't think that 1746 is that scummy tbh

You spent yesterday commenting about me and my interaction with gamma. I still think you're looking at my waffle post regarding him in a vacuum and iirc thats where the bulk of your suspicions come from regarding me.

What are your thoughts on Bernie though? I made a case on him yesterday, and what key posted shows him starting the same behaviour he had around me and gamma. Why do you think hes hard pushing me but clearly going after another target?

[Momrangal]

That post is to keys talking about yours truly, actually! (Bernie)

[Momrangal]

i was thinking more that she has nothing interesting to say about the fact that she was wagoned while she was gone, but same idea

I literally said bernie hammered gamma because he was worried about me being flash wagoned while i was V/LA and pushed for it before i could come back from it.

[skitter30]

i don't want the day to end before bv catches up btw

i don't think that 1746 is that scummy tbh

You spent yesterday commenting about me and my interaction with gamma. I still think you're looking at my waffle post regarding him in a vacuum and iirc thats where the bulk of your suspicions come from regarding me.

What are your thoughts on Bernie though? I made a case on him yesterday, and what key posted shows him starting the same behaviour he had around me and gamma. Why do you think hes hard pushing me but clearly going after another target?

my problems with you are:

a) being waffle-y about the gamma wagon and i still don't know why you think i took that out of context

b) there's a lot of mysterious townreads on you that i can't get anyone to explain satisfactorily

c) you were gamma's counterwagon and i couldn't get the wagon to have more than three votes - it faced an *insane* amount of resistance and nobody could explain why

d) you've done like nothing townie the whole game

bernie's around ~nulltown right now. i think he was hard-pushing you but going after someone else since you were v/la; that's one of the main reasons why i moved my vote off of you last week but i'm prob moving it back now that you're back

i have to recheck your bernie case; i don't remember it offhand; let me check

[skitter30]

i was thinking more that she has nothing interesting to say about the fact that she was wagoned while she was gone, but same idea

I literally said bernie hammered gamma because he was worried about me being flash wagoned while i was V/LA and pushed for it before i could come back from it.

i think i misunderstood what you meant by that paragraph. i thought you were talking about the day1 wagon, not today's wagon. apologies.

[Bernie Sanders]

Mmm
So if momrangal is town I'd expect one of two things depending on her read strength of me here
If hard scumreading, vote and push convincingly as priority.
If anything but, engage with me.
But this reaction is kind of evasive and somewhat talking around the point or of making judgment.

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: momrangal

[the worst]

if this gains traction I'll vote it on one proviso

[Bernie Sanders]

A] I think bernie is scum. Reiterate this and push or whatever, idk what exactly but I know this approach really doesn't fit it.
B] Anything else, even I think bernie is probably scum, but I'm not sure so I want to take some time to gather my thoughts etc etc etc. Engage directly (!!!) but if not ask good faith questions to townreads.

What are your thoughts on Bernie though? I made a case on him yesterday, and what key posted shows him starting the same behaviour he had around me and gamma. Why do you think hes hard pushing me but clearly going after another target?

This is weak. "I made a case on him."
A) Is there a judgment call here (I don't see one), is it an attempt to convince.
B) Or is it an actual question to consider the answer and viewpoint. But I don't think that's true either, the question reads leading, I think if it was a real question it would be posed to me directly, and finally there's no take or interpretation on her take in regard to what I wrote around it in thread.

[Bernie Sanders]

Also WTF everyone left that wagon and it was between stay as a single vote or hop on to duck who I've had the most reason to believe as mom partner so far this game.
I have to be crazy here if anyone reads that as a question asked by momrangal in good faith.

[skitter30]

mom i'm kinda confused why i'm the person you're reaching out to talk about bernie right now tbh. like if you have trouble with bernie idk why you aren't talking to him about it

also i'm assuming you're talking about 794?

a) i think this post is kinda out-of-date; like it's from two weeks ago and doesn't really address like anything recent and thus isn't such a major factor to me either way

b) i kinda feel like that post is almost less about casing bernie and more about defending duck? i talked about htis post before, and i said you felt kinda self-righteous-y in it

c) ignoring the gamma hammer i generall agree with this reads and like i agree with his both his approach to the duck and to you

d) also i said this back when you posted it about the following:

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

this bit is kinda inaccurate to me since the wagon only got up to L-3 at that point

--

Why?

Bernie? 133, 135, 141, 142, 173, and 174 are all pretty townie. As i said before, I especially liked the way that he joined me on Stun but then switched onto Invis becuase he couldn't keep up the farce of voting someone he didn't actually find scummy. The entirety of that sequence of posts felt very town. And following those early posts, there's been a very natural thought process and a lot of progression in his reads, as seen in 187, 266, 323, 375, 388.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but as far as his early interaction with you regarding stun and invis, I think you may be giving him to much credit as far as progression goes.

I do agree that 388 is a solid post. But I feel like a large majority of them are kinda just sitting in the middle and when he does take a stance he does this weird "eh what do I know thing" like in post 375 . He also did it in 323 when pushing Dino, making it feel like he's subliminally excusing himself from taking responsibility from anything that happened. Making it easier to brush it off as oversight or some othet thing. Something I see scum do constantly, something I'm always noting (like I did in implos large game as well in a few games in my old account).

It's subtle tell that people have thought me crazy to point out but has outstanding accuracy.

unless you meant this post instead?

i don't really get this vibe from him tbh, that he's fence-sitting or trying to not take responsiblity

[skitter30]

VOTE: The worst
I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though.
I was going to hard insist mom today actually but 1746 is legitimately scummy from duck here.
FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

i think she was saying that this post was you pushing for a flip on her but focusing on tw isntead of her? otherwise i'm not really sure what she's talking about

also she was v/la and i don't have a problem with like ... not pressuring someone on v/la

[Bernie Sanders]

I get it but she ignores the (very obvious) context of how I voted her first though and everyone left that wagon essentially because she was v/la with implication it'd be reconsidered after.
I don't think that's like some subtle thing anyone town who is reading to try to make a call on the situation could actually miss. I think she just said that as a thing rather than actually looking at the situation.