Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Shoshin]

Bv if you have specific questions for me can you please ask them succinctly in clear English without answering your own question with your own opinions

and preferably in their own short posts so I read them

like rn I'm reading maybe 1/10 of your posts and praying to the mafia gods that you eat a nk or get copped so I don't have to sort you

Why didn't you react to Nauci this way? Or even Errant? Both of whom make long posts in a similar way to BV?

[Shoshin]

the worst, you said you were going to check something about me. What was it?

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE: Skitter

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Key

[Shoshin]

I really don't like the worst's response to BV.

[Bernie Sanders]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

[Shoshin]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

[Bernie Sanders]

@BV 1824
Was going to wagon stun partially just for the sake of it (the game felt lazy and boring there), but also he seemed the kind of newbie you can emotionally hardsort with pressure (could go into this). But he was starting to towntell slightly and I'd have felt pretty bad too if he's town and I pushed him that way (essentially rattle him very hard and judge reaction) for the sake of seeing "emotional tells" for an early "easy" read (there is something ethical to be said on this kind of thing), when I didn't even particularly have much reason to suspect him specifically. He got obvtown soon after though.

Invis just reads noob disengagedscum but where I stand anything I'm not getting towntells from is bad enough here. I can't really read N_M, last game I scumread him for lacking engagement relative to usual N_M which I thought was his meta tell but he flipped town d1. There's an element that it feels like a crapshoot given just low sample size and people giving the invis caveats though again nothing makes him town either and unfortunately he usually ignores pressure too so doesn't seem productive to go there, ideally attempt to poe read towards it. Though like n_m replacing in to play and then being like this is maybe not comparable to the game he started in and didn't find interesting and so kinda worse (occasional scum replace tell).

[Bernie Sanders]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

IDK. If you scumread keysor you should probably either case or meta him. I feel like there's obvscum here so my priority isn't in what would probably be a lot of effort to try to hardsort people like keysor or errantparabola. I don't townread him that much because what I liked from him was mostly efforting and good analysis but that's not particularly reliable either. That said I could see him scum possible given I feel like he's had little game impact despite all his posting (and I've felt pretty much no pressure from him on his scumread) but I'm not even looking for a third right now.
Hell even in general I think looking to lockdown and call out fullteam distracts given if you have 2 scum but misread town as a third it potentially detracts from the whole thing and that approach you end up focusing on the people you feel least strongly and picking between them for a game of who is partner spec rather than actually pushing lynching most likely scum

[Bernie Sanders]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

BV's very obviously town here.

I'd kinda reserve judgment here as well just to be safe
When I was playing with him we were town together and I thought he was super obvtown because tons of real scumhunting effort and what seemed like very insightful analysis (even when it was wrong like on me). Then I blindread another game after and felt the exact same way and thought okay easy but it turned out to be scum BV lol. I think I briefly checked again for like 5 minutes when BV replaced into alternating 9p as a curiosity though I was already dead by that time
as a side note that game me and BV had and clownspiracy put me off putting primary focus as association spec/partner hunting over individuals, you're town and you see people wasting literally countless hours of all day trying to fit partners with you and you with partners and it's like wow you wasted the entire day and I can't even say anything about or engage it and like okay those other people are probably scum can we lynch them (and then they say that's a strange association for scumpartners and a daring bus and don't want to lynch them anymore).

[Bernie Sanders]

I literally don't know what momrangal is doing because she's not engaging me but also isn't trying to wagon me.

[Irrelephant11]

Alright I'm getting distracted. I don't think we have good odds of hitting scum off-Gamma-wagon, unless anyone has reason to specifically think more scum were offwagon than on.

VOTE: the worst,

this is L-2

Honestly think Not_Mafia has good odds to be scum here too, but it's hard to make a case for obvious reasons

[Bernie Sanders]

It might not matter, but can you respond to my mom points and tell me why you have a TW preference.

[Bernie Sanders]

@keysor Can I get you to summarise your strongest reads in like a few sentences or something
I really don't get much out of going through you essentially describing past game events and giving "this is town/bad/just weird" or "hmm this could mean one of two things idk which" comment on each one when you can just do all that, and post a summary when you're done with with conclusions and overall judgments or what points you're making. You have individual statements but not enough on how it'd all come together or what you're really trying to convey.

[brassherald]

I clearly missed my morning VC sorry. I'm almost done with my least favorite case ever then I promise to be good to go more often.

[Bernie Sanders]

TW get in here.

[skitter30]

Hey BV, I like your catchup posts quite a bit. One very important question for you, why is Skitter town?

I'm trying to think of how best to explain it since there's a pretty big meta component here. To put it succinctly, she's a lot more persistent about pushing reads and gamesolving when she's town. I don't have first hand experience with her scumgame but from the few games I've read, she can fake analytical-looking posts to a certain extent but there's a lack of drive to keep pushing, finding answers and solving the game. As scum, she sometimes has a tendency to get a bit lurkish/burn out from the effort. In her towngames, it doesn't feel like it's a chore for her to keep churning out more content. She can just keep going until she gets to the bottom of whatever she's pushing. Since you're into reading previous games, take a glance through some of skitter's scum games and I think you'll get what I'm talking about. They are several months old but the mindset still holds. She prefers playing town over scum and this game, she's

well

out of her scumrange.

^^^^^

or TLDR I can semi-fake analysis but I can't really fake being stubborn or aggressive

(aside, I think that scum!you townreads town!me most of the time given that first newbie)

--

TheWorst's actual posting didn't make any impression on me. A lot of the one-liner type stuff feels like things he could post as either alignment and I have a hard time reading people who employ the conversational one-liner style without deeper analysis. I think he's more likely than not scum through POE.

He can towntell pretty hard with this playstyle. He just hasn't this game

--

The bolded is super weird because you're the one reading into her replace out. You're also very charitable towards TheWorst which makes me not feel good because you're both in my POE pool and you're stretching pretty hard to defend him. I dislike your Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

wrt 809, now that I think about it, I don't think Gemini gave an in-thread explanation for repping out - like mom specified that it was for irl reasons when gemini didn't say anything of the sort

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I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

315 also doesn't really feel like a partner-vote to me, and i'm uncertain if both scum jump on the emerging nauci wagon one right after the other, but there's *quite* a few signs pointing to partners despite this

also keep an eye on the gamma wagon composition when you get there; I'd like to know what you think about it

--

Bv if you have specific questions for me can you please ask them succinctly in clear English without answering your own question with your own opinions

and preferably in their own short posts so I read them

like rn I'm reading maybe 1/10 of your posts and praying to the mafia gods that you eat a nk or get copped so I don't have to sort you

aside, kinda wondering why this isn't your reaction to my posting most of the time

he's catching up and i don't think this is busywork; it's fairly in-line with how town!him usually analyzes games, and I think it's quite insightful

--

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

BV's very obviously town here.

I wouldn't go *quite* that far yet tbh. He's definitely trending towards town but I'm not ready to locktown him just yet.

He's very insightful as town, but as scum can fake that sort of analysis pretty well, especially when he can see what townread people had said previously and can moderate his opinions to match - that's why I'm waiting for him to catch up because I think it would be a bit harder for scum!him to do that in real-time.

--

TW get in here.

tbf it is middle of the night in his timezone

[Errantparabola]

a) being waffle-y about the gamma wagon and i still don't know why you think i took that out of context

b) there's a lot of mysterious townreads on you that i can't get anyone to explain satisfactorily

c) you were gamma's counterwagon and i couldn't get the wagon to have more than three votes - it faced an *insane* amount of resistance and nobody could explain why

d) you've done like nothing townie the whole game

Okay, so here's what I'm thinkin about Mom.
a) isn't scummy. b) isn't scummy.
c) is a salient point here, I think? d) i agree with a lot, ESPECIALLY in context with her response to pressure today

But this reaction is kind of evasive and somewhat talking around the point or of making judgment.

Like, mom cited a case that was made, presumably, a long time ago, rather than hashing something out again, like I would expect someone who was really convinced of a scumread that they'd held for a long time. And I agree that it gives me a weird gut feeling but ?? ??

Also WTF everyone left that wagon and it was between stay as a single vote or hop on to duck who I've had the most reason to believe as mom partner so far this game.

based on how the wagons have played out (today specifically), I would be surprised if they were partners. But I think I'd be interested in seeing someone like Nauci analyse it. I guess consider me a willing vote on either for now

This pinged. This is a game of perceptions and to do well as town, you need to read people correctly and be read correctly.
...

I actually don't like anything you've written under the heading of yourself. Why give bullet-points when you don't like self-meta?

this is the most incorrect thing that BlackVoid has said so far I think
Other than that I think his catchup has mildly positively impacted the game but no read yet

Nauci's Irrelephant push in 702 and 704 felt genuine. The more I think about it, I actually don't think that after a great game as scum together, Nauci's strategy in the next game she plays with Irrelephant is to keep pushing for his mislynch on the basis of his good scumplay.....

I agree with this wholeheartedly (assuming that I accept the premise, and theres no reason i wouldnt) i think with the events of this day I'd tend towards putting nauci as more confidently town and irrelephant as less town but still town

Why didn't you react to Nauci this way? Or even Errant? Both of whom make long posts in a similar way to BV?

holy shit guys.
I'm a longposter now. i'm never like this, but this game has just been so nice

It might not matter, but can you respond to my mom points and tell me why you have a TW preference.

I'll put some more weight behind this question and say that I think this matters a lot especially if there is exactly one scum between Mom and the worst, given the timing of irre's vote (it matters a lot less if it's 0 or 2)

there's *quite* a few signs pointing to partners despite this

do me a favor and give me the fast rundown on these?

Bernie, question:
a) are you a public alt? if so, who are you?
b) if not, have we played together? do you have an existing impression of me?

[Errantparabola]

I'd tend towards putting nauci as more confidently town

Nauci Gets Townread By Doing Absolutely Nothing
(This Is A Joke)

[Errantparabola]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

Wait, hold on.
Do you really simulaneously
a) hold this theory as plausible and
b) think that Key is so much scummier than the other two that you consider it a good move to try and start a wagon on him as opposed to joining a wagon

[Shoshin]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

Wait, hold on.
Do you really simulaneously
a) hold this theory as plausible and
b) think that Key is so much scummier than the other two that you consider it a good move to try and start a wagon on him as opposed to joining a wagon

a) it's a plausible theory, but (b) I never said Key was "so much scummier."

[skitter30]

Okay, so here's what I'm thinkin about Mom.
a) isn't scummy. b) isn't scummy.
c) is a salient point here, I think? d) i agree with a lot, ESPECIALLY in context with her response to pressure today

b) is perplexing in the context of c) - the mysterious townreads are part of why i couldn't get that wagon to happen yesterday

--

do me a favor and give me the fast rundown on these?

a) mom's weird defense of tw from way back when 794

b) both of them starting a counterwagon on nauci just as tw's wagon was getting high

c) earlier in the game was very hedge-y wrt his read on her 646 and pretty much the next time he mentioned her he had one of those mysterious townreads 1366 because she was defending him when he was getting wagoned. like 1369 is :/ and was very against wagoning her and was just not willing to change his read or reconsider it when i was trying to wagon her 1379. and then he declared himself to be mom's cw 1777 and that since scum were apparently pushing his wagon so hard, she must be scum too (and he felt this reasoning wasn't valid yesterday when I was pointing out that gamma's wagon was quite possibly her counter). and now mom is in his lynchpool and she was v/la i think between declaring her town and putting her in his lynchpool. like i really don't understand this progression tbh

d) and mom has just been hard-defending him like all game and is going after bernie for scumreading him and trying to wagon him for pushing both tw and mom

i'm still entertaining the theory that she's white-knighting tw tho

[skitter30]

VOTE: mom

i don't know what number vote that is, i think ~3 maybe

[Shoshin]

He's very insightful as town, but as scum can fake that sort of analysis pretty well, especially when he can see what townread people had said previously and can moderate his opinions to match - that's why I'm waiting for him to catch up because I think it would be a bit harder for scum!him to do that in real-time.

Do you think he'd read the whole game this carefully as scum? Like, he's really digging into the nuances of every post in a way that I have trouble seeing anyone do as scum.

[skitter30]

yes, very much so