Open 730: Donner Party [Terminado]

[Sando]

Seriously?

People are held to account for wagons that take off, you're saying in your post that you're holding the Oka wagon people to account.

[UnrealSeal]

that doesn't answer my question.

in what world is dropping a rising wagon to vote a popular TR based on gut, then hard-defending the victim of said wagon a safe play for scum to make.

the answer is it fucking isn't, because all scum really has to do is votepark and then lurk while their target is mislynched.

explain to me what I have to gain from defending Oka.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: sando

Spoiler: have fun reading this wall of ramblings

this is incentive for sando to respond to me:

Would you say this timeline is correct sando?
I say one of not_mafia or sando is probably maf.

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi?

want to try out this experiment

ur response:

Other scum could be anyone.

Don't know, don't care rn. Maybe it is seal, I just think not_mafia is a much superior lynch than seal today.

So you acknowledge you're considering the "other scum", which is a different faction than whatever scum you think (thought) NM is, then:

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi?

You assume a binary outcome here, red+red is flat out not an option for you in this scenario? Why not?

saying that im assuming too much. im not considering the very possibility of n_m and sando scum

fine:

i revise my strategy

Other scum could be anyone.

Don't know, don't care rn. Maybe it is seal, I just think not_mafia is a much superior lynch than seal today.

So you acknowledge you're considering the "other scum", which is a different faction than whatever scum you think (thought) NM is, then:

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi?

You assume a binary outcome here, red+red is flat out not an option for you in this scenario? Why not?

one maf is dead
that means
there is either sk left
maf left
or sk and maf left

so yeah

and to the other point:
if you flip red and game isnt over and not_mafia isnt dead
we keep sheeping him until he is wrong

this isnt a ridiculous strategy join the train

because not_mafia is an omniscient mafia genius who needs no explanation

ill sheep until not_mafia is wrong

IMPLYING THAT BOTH OF YOU CAN BE SCUM

you at the time, respond with

okay

so when you say im acknowledging other scum as another faction then that is a given right?

I'm saying that in your Sando vs NM post you've assumed that only one of us can flip scum. The only people who can assume that (other than me and NM obviously) are:

Scum (either Mafia or SK)
GS with an inno on one of the 2 - that's not true here, you'd be pushing your inno and I can't see a gambit/trap from you here
Vig with a guilty elsewhere - that's not true here, and even if true you can't be 100%
Vig who ate Blackstar!Mafia - somehow I doubt that...

So given I can't see any logical town rational for your assumption+play, that only leaves scum in that list.

okay, that is a fair analysis of my pre-revised plan. maybe you are responding to that, i don't know. we continue to talk about meta and not _mafia and you dont spam me to follow up, so i assume you got my implication was just trying to clarify your own position.



then out of left field

A. If you feel that scum didn't bus MM, and you're pinning me as SK, what does that make Not_Mafia, who voted MM before I did?

Oka literally cannot handle the idea that there's multiple scum, as I talked about in 448. Oka has ignored this point for a while now.

but i already told you that ill sheep not_mafia until he is wrong. which means if you flip scum and our next n_m lynch flips town then we lynch not_mafia. therefore implying that yes, both of you can be scum.

oww that hurts

So you're just going to...keep ignoring it?

So the basis of your plan here Oka is to sheep someone you complain is completely unreadable, and when that persons target flips town, claim vindication and lynch the person you were sheeping? All the while ignoring actual content, directed at you or otherwise.

As you're so keen of asking, please, explain to me the town rationale behind that?

wow that is a serious bundle of outdated stuff. i had already revised my plan, i was no longer doing the sheep not_mafia strategy. i answered the questions directed at me, in fact im generating the content here.

im pretty sure im voting not_mafia rn, ive answered questions directed at me, but nice try

I literally just linked to a post from you that you ignored and instead responded with "ow that hurts".

VOTE: Okapoka

and then this.
you accuse me of ignoring 448, but at the time you didnt want me to followup. i believed it was all clarified because of my revising posts of the strategy of the time, which mind you occurred before 448. i mean i guess i ignored 448 to the same extent of me saying "the sky is blue" and then you asking "what color is the sky" and then i dont respond. I literally preemptively answered your question, which i didnt even know was a question at the time, but if it was then i already answered it. i modified my plan due to your criticisms, which should have been obvious because you were still conversing with me.

i was just going to sheep not_mafia until he was wrong at the time
and then lynch him

so logically speaking if u flipped red, n_m wagons up another who flips green then id scumread n_m

Bullshit, you're moving the goalposts:

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and

if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi

?

want to try out this experiment

lmao
yes the plan was modified or "the goalposts were moved" but that was with your input.
if we reread 448 with context, it does not seem like you are trying to call me out anymore on not considering a n_m + sando scum, but if you were, i already answered the question BEFORE YOU CALLED ME OUT ON IT.
BEFORE
BEFORE
BEFORE


anything i miss?


pedit:
and before you say you actually wanted me to followup on 448

is there a difference between scum not_mafia and town not_mafia that we can find?

Here's a scumgame I played with him (I was town to his scum): viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75812

Here's his description of his play:

1 Quickhammer literally every gameday
2 Take Quick to LyLo
3 ??????????
4 Profit

He might know he can't get away with it this game, but lolhammering the L-1 on Unreal is very much something he'd do as scum and not as town.

then why arent u seeing the easy solution to this game

go ahead an L-1 unreal and let not_mafia show up and lolhammer

a) We've poisoned the well by having to talk this through so much and so deeply, he's not going to lolhammer through my "lol NM if you lolhammer you're clearly scum", so the clear doesn't mean much anymore. He's a troll, he's not an idiot, it's not like he's obligated to write the lolhammer if the opportunity presents, he has agency.
b) his trolling is different from the scumgame I just linked
c) Manatee already put Unreal to L-1 and NM didn't lolhammer
d) Lolhammer on a possible PR is a terrible way (risk/waste) to out scum

k

so how do we figure out n_m alignment?

What's this "we", I already TR NM, I'm giving you info to help you come to a conclusion, go read his other games.

would you say not_mafia is accurate with his reads?

Not particularly, no. He's maybe a bit better than average with his reads as town, but that's not saying much on MS.

@Korina I'm voting Ejj not AP.

Fixed
-Kor

VOTE: not_mafia

ur a manipulative son of a bitch

Bets on his response being "lol"

thats 6 posts over the course of more than a day without any indication of you wanting me to answer anything

but as soon as lucky and skygazer forms a wagon

your very next post is

A. If you feel that scum didn't bus MM, and you're pinning me as SK, what does that make Not_Mafia, who voted MM before I did?

Oka literally cannot handle the idea that there's multiple scum, as I talked about in 448. Oka has ignored this point for a while now.

now you want me to followup. now suddenly i cannot consider multiple scum.

[Korina]

Votecount 2.6

UnrealSeal(3)

~ ceejayvinoya(9), AP(37), ManateeDude(23)

Sando(3)

~ Not_Mafia(18), UnrealSeal(13), OkaPoka(104)

OkaPoka(3)

~ Skygazer(22), LuckyOtter(16), Sando(38)


Not Voting (1): Eragon(52)

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-17 00:13:00)

In case of tie at EOD: Unreal will be lynched

MOD REMINDERS

[Sando]

in what world is dropping a rising wagon to vote a popular TR based on gut, then hard-defending the victim of said wagon a safe play for scum to make.

the answer is it fucking isn't, because all scum really has to do is votepark and then lurk while their target is mislynched.

explain to me what I have to gain from defending Oka.

Where's the "hard-defence"? All I see is "I don't think anti-town tunnels NM this much" and "I don't like the wagon".

Are you seriously trying to argue that scum never gain from TRing a townie? Top tip, he's currently voting the same person you are...you're not seriously daft enough to not understand buddying, you seem to be doing it fairly well here.

[Sando]

in what world is dropping a rising wagon to vote a popular TR based on gut, then hard-defending the victim of said wagon a safe play for scum to make.

Based on gut? You literally said in both votes that you don't have any scumreads. In what world is that NOT trying to "play it safe"?

[OkaPoka]

@sando read post 552 and respond please and thank you

[Sando]

and before you say you actually wanted me to followup on 448

Jesus H Christ:

Oka literally cannot handle the idea that there's multiple scum, as I talked about in 448. Oka has ignored this point for a while now.

Followed THE VERY NEXT POST BY

oww that hurts

Apparently "In What World" is the format for our discussions.

So, in what world is that not me saying you should probably follow up?

Are you saying there's a statute of limitations on me following up?

you accuse me of ignoring 448, but at the time you didnt want me to followup. i believed it was all clarified because of my revising posts of the strategy of the time, which mind you occurred before 448. i mean i guess i ignored 448 to the same extent of me saying "the sky is blue" and then you asking "what color is the sky" and then i dont respond.

I think my head just exploded from the stupid.

I've had 2 points on you:
1) You assumed there can only be 1 scum within 2 people - only scum make sense for "knowing" this.
2) Your plan around NM sheeping is scummy AF

Answering (2), badly I might add, in no way addresses (1). You also just said you'd stop following NM...you didn't say you'd lynch him. Which, might I add, is scummy AF anyway!

A game where NM hammered me, and we were both town, literally just finished, your plan is flat out scummy.

[Sando]

9. Sando - unreadable

VOTE: sando

Spoiler: have fun reading this wall of ramblings

this is incentive for sando to respond to me:

Would you say this timeline is correct sando?
I say one of not_mafia or sando is probably maf.

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi?

want to try out this experiment

ur response:

Other scum could be anyone.

Don't know, don't care rn. Maybe it is seal, I just think not_mafia is a much superior lynch than seal today.

So you acknowledge you're considering the "other scum", which is a different faction than whatever scum you think (thought) NM is, then:

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi?

You assume a binary outcome here, red+red is flat out not an option for you in this scenario? Why not?

saying that im assuming too much. im not considering the very possibility of n_m and sando scum

fine:

i revise my strategy

Other scum could be anyone.

Don't know, don't care rn. Maybe it is seal, I just think not_mafia is a much superior lynch than seal today.

So you acknowledge you're considering the "other scum", which is a different faction than whatever scum you think (thought) NM is, then:

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi?

You assume a binary outcome here, red+red is flat out not an option for you in this scenario? Why not?

one maf is dead
that means
there is either sk left
maf left
or sk and maf left

so yeah

and to the other point:
if you flip red and game isnt over and not_mafia isnt dead
we keep sheeping him until he is wrong

this isnt a ridiculous strategy join the train

because not_mafia is an omniscient mafia genius who needs no explanation

ill sheep until not_mafia is wrong

IMPLYING THAT BOTH OF YOU CAN BE SCUM

you at the time, respond with

okay

so when you say im acknowledging other scum as another faction then that is a given right?

I'm saying that in your Sando vs NM post you've assumed that only one of us can flip scum. The only people who can assume that (other than me and NM obviously) are:

Scum (either Mafia or SK)
GS with an inno on one of the 2 - that's not true here, you'd be pushing your inno and I can't see a gambit/trap from you here
Vig with a guilty elsewhere - that's not true here, and even if true you can't be 100%
Vig who ate Blackstar!Mafia - somehow I doubt that...

So given I can't see any logical town rational for your assumption+play, that only leaves scum in that list.

okay, that is a fair analysis of my pre-revised plan. maybe you are responding to that, i don't know. we continue to talk about meta and not _mafia and you dont spam me to follow up, so i assume you got my implication was just trying to clarify your own position.



then out of left field

A. If you feel that scum didn't bus MM, and you're pinning me as SK, what does that make Not_Mafia, who voted MM before I did?

Oka literally cannot handle the idea that there's multiple scum, as I talked about in 448. Oka has ignored this point for a while now.

but i already told you that ill sheep not_mafia until he is wrong. which means if you flip scum and our next n_m lynch flips town then we lynch not_mafia. therefore implying that yes, both of you can be scum.

oww that hurts

So you're just going to...keep ignoring it?

So the basis of your plan here Oka is to sheep someone you complain is completely unreadable, and when that persons target flips town, claim vindication and lynch the person you were sheeping? All the while ignoring actual content, directed at you or otherwise.

As you're so keen of asking, please, explain to me the town rationale behind that?

wow that is a serious bundle of outdated stuff. i had already revised my plan, i was no longer doing the sheep not_mafia strategy. i answered the questions directed at me, in fact im generating the content here.

im pretty sure im voting not_mafia rn, ive answered questions directed at me, but nice try

I literally just linked to a post from you that you ignored and instead responded with "ow that hurts".

VOTE: Okapoka

and then this.
you accuse me of ignoring 448, but at the time you didnt want me to followup. i believed it was all clarified because of my revising posts of the strategy of the time, which mind you occurred before 448. i mean i guess i ignored 448 to the same extent of me saying "the sky is blue" and then you asking "what color is the sky" and then i dont respond. I literally preemptively answered your question, which i didnt even know was a question at the time, but if it was then i already answered it. i modified my plan due to your criticisms, which should have been obvious because you were still conversing with me.

i was just going to sheep not_mafia until he was wrong at the time
and then lynch him

so logically speaking if u flipped red, n_m wagons up another who flips green then id scumread n_m

Bullshit, you're moving the goalposts:

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia and

if sando flips scum not_mafia is a good boi

?

want to try out this experiment

lmao
yes the plan was modified or "the goalposts were moved" but that was with your input.
if we reread 448 with context, it does not seem like you are trying to call me out anymore on not considering a n_m + sando scum, but if you were, i already answered the question BEFORE YOU CALLED ME OUT ON IT.
BEFORE
BEFORE
BEFORE


anything i miss?


pedit:
and before you say you actually wanted me to followup on 448

is there a difference between scum not_mafia and town not_mafia that we can find?

Here's a scumgame I played with him (I was town to his scum): viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75812

Here's his description of his play:

1 Quickhammer literally every gameday
2 Take Quick to LyLo
3 ??????????
4 Profit

He might know he can't get away with it this game, but lolhammering the L-1 on Unreal is very much something he'd do as scum and not as town.

then why arent u seeing the easy solution to this game

go ahead an L-1 unreal and let not_mafia show up and lolhammer

a) We've poisoned the well by having to talk this through so much and so deeply, he's not going to lolhammer through my "lol NM if you lolhammer you're clearly scum", so the clear doesn't mean much anymore. He's a troll, he's not an idiot, it's not like he's obligated to write the lolhammer if the opportunity presents, he has agency.
b) his trolling is different from the scumgame I just linked
c) Manatee already put Unreal to L-1 and NM didn't lolhammer
d) Lolhammer on a possible PR is a terrible way (risk/waste) to out scum

k

so how do we figure out n_m alignment?

What's this "we", I already TR NM, I'm giving you info to help you come to a conclusion, go read his other games.

would you say not_mafia is accurate with his reads?

Not particularly, no. He's maybe a bit better than average with his reads as town, but that's not saying much on MS.

@Korina I'm voting Ejj not AP.

Fixed
-Kor

VOTE: not_mafia

ur a manipulative son of a bitch

Bets on his response being "lol"

thats 6 posts over the course of more than a day without any indication of you wanting me to answer anything

but as soon as lucky and skygazer forms a wagon

your very next post is

A. If you feel that scum didn't bus MM, and you're pinning me as SK, what does that make Not_Mafia, who voted MM before I did?

Oka literally cannot handle the idea that there's multiple scum, as I talked about in 448. Oka has ignored this point for a while now.

now you want me to followup. now suddenly i cannot consider multiple scum.

Something changed between these two posts...I wonder what it could be

[OkaPoka]

did u even read my post

and to the other point:
if you flip red and game isnt over and not_mafia isnt dead
we keep sheeping him until he is wrong

this isnt a ridiculous strategy join the train

because not_mafia is an omniscient mafia genius who needs no explanation

this means im implying that maybe both of you can be scum ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

did you really need me to outright say we are going to lynch not_mafia if he is wrong? somethings dont need to be said because they are implied. we stop following not_mafia, lynching him was implied which also implies i was considering those possibilities.
now before you argue that i didnt imply it
read 449
that means i was following the idea that not_mafia was omniscient
and omnscient people should always be right
unless they are lying?

1) yes at the time i assumed one, but then i changed it
2) my plan around sheeping NM was the only viable option for me to get nm because people didnt want to lynch not_mafia

okay yes you followed up, after people voted me? you had over 24 hours and fit 6 posts in the time, which you decided it wasn't worth asking. the point isnt the statute of limitations, the point is you didn't choose to make it a scumtell until i became a popular wagon.

yeah what changed is that you decided it would be funny to be inconsistent

[OkaPoka]

and you are purposely ignoring my intent of sheeping not_mafia at the time

my purpose was to get you to flip town so we could finally end not_mafia

because not_mafia was my only scumread and i was willing to sacrifice players for it

[Sando]

did u even read my post

I think I read it more carefully than you:

You also just said you'd stop following NM...you didn't say you'd lynch him.

and to the other point:
if you flip red and game isnt over and not_mafia isnt dead

we keep sheeping him until he is wrong

this isnt a ridiculous strategy join the train

because not_mafia is an omniscient mafia genius who needs no explanation

Not sure why the only options are "sheep" or "lynch", or how you expect me to think that, given it's udderly ridiculous.

[Sando]

and you are purposely ignoring my intent of sheeping not_mafia at the time

my purpose was to get you to flip town so we could finally end not_mafia

because not_mafia was my only scumread and i was willing to sacrifice players for it

What the actual fuck...

[OkaPoka]

and your 532 is espcially bad because what you were referring to in 448 was that i wasnt considering the possibility of you and not_mafia being scum but then you decided that you wanted to evolve and generalize that statement to me not considering the possibilities of multiple scum. i mean that is just flat out lying


what do you mean what the actual fuck?
you do know at that time i was only scumreading not_mafia right?
you also know that nobody else was voting not_mafia
so why the fuck would i sheep the only scumread i had?
maybe it was to prove a point, maybe it was because i was wanted to move the game in a direction in which n_m would be a lynch

[Sando]

so why the fuck would i sheep the only scumread i had?

Because it's stupid? This is why your plan is (was) scummy AF:

A game where NM hammered me, and we were both town, literally just finished, your plan is flat out scummy.

[ceejayvinoya]

Wtf let me try to comprehend this shit.

Okapoka's plan is to sheep NM on his sando vote. If NM is wrong and sando flips town, okapoka then votes NM. Lol.

[ceejayvinoya]

I don't know what to say

[OkaPoka]

well i wasn;t in that game so i have no idea what you even mean

this game isnt that other game i promise you

yeah my plan might be stupid, but it is also like the only way i could attempt to get not_mafia to get lynched, either you actually get lynched and then not_mafia is forced to explain and then is lynched the next day or people see how ridiculous not_mafia is being and vote to lynch not_mafia that day. at that stage of the game, there was zero way not_mafia was going to be lynched, it was just unrealseal, which from my perspective was not scum and was the wrong direction to move the game into.


ceejay let me explain it:
i sheep not_mafia, i suggest to everyone else to do the same and if not_mafia is wrong we vote not_mafia.
now the chances of this actually happening is zero
the point isnt the sando lynch at all
the point is not_mafia is being ridiculous for saying sando is scum and then disappearing
so i decided to prove a point by being equally ridiculous
and if unrealseal's analysis is truly correct of not_mafia having godlike reads then there would be no reason for anyone else who has played with not_mafia to not join the wagon
the endgame was always to get not_mafia to get lynched

[OkaPoka]

and do you know what frustrates me most

is that nobody was even commenting on the lunacy of voting sando here

VOTE: sando

zero

[OkaPoka]

still willing to lynch not_mafia btw

[ceejayvinoya]

I don't understand the way you're trying to prove it tho.

First off, NM shows what you think is scummy behavior.

You then point this out.

Several players then tell you that it's his meta and not really indicative of anything.

You then imitate his behavior? Do something similarly ridiculous as NM? What do you want us to do, townread you for that? Forgive me if this seems misrep because I'm having trouble seeing where you're going.

What's this point you're trying to prove about NM?

All I'm getting right now is that you want him lynched.

[Sando]

and do you know what frustrates me most

is that nobody was even commenting on the lunacy of voting sando here

VOTE: sando

zero

WHAT?! That's literally what this entire conversation is about, how stupid it is to:
a) Sheep your own SR read
b) Promise to just keep lynching along that sheep-line until they get it wrong and then lynch them.

[OkaPoka]

okay let me run things down from my persepctive

not_mafia has not done a single protown play, he has been antitown the entire game, yet nobody seems to be seriously calling him out on it.
i hear its his meta, but then i hear somethign fucking stupid which is this playstyle can be beneficial and not_mafia is a good asset to town for this.
so i decided to prove a point by being an absolute lunatic by essentially turning not_mafia into a double vote and promising to blindly sheep him until he is wrong
i dont even explain why im voting sando, im just blindly sheeping not_mafia

im trying to imitate his behavior because it seems to me not_mafia is getting a free pass for it when he really shouldn't, even if it is his meta. i don't care if you townread me for it, i just want everyone to see the lunacy behind thinking that not_mafia is being an asset so we can get this day over and not_mafia lynched already.

[Sando]

because not_mafia is an omniscient mafia genius who needs no explanation

Are you just trolling because you're annoyed at people not agreeing with you on NM?

I also asked you here if this was just you trolling.

[OkaPoka]

and do you know what frustrates me most

is that nobody was even commenting on the lunacy of voting sando here

VOTE: sando

zero

WHAT?! That's literally what this entire conversation is about, how stupid it is to:
a) Sheep your own SR read
b) Promise to just keep lynching along that sheep-line until they get it wrong and then lynch them.

im blindly sheeping not_mafia to show the lunacy behind naked voting and not explaining why i scumread X person because Y


and if he lands you correctly well i might be completely wrong and maybe not_mafia IS THAT GOOD

im not trolling im trying to prove a point that trolling isnt an asset to town, so i guess actually i was trolling