Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #2350 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:49 am

Post by Shoshin »

In post 2342, BlackVoid wrote:The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.
I'm thinking a large part of this is probably because the stronger townies in this game have come together in a way that makes it very difficult for scum to push counterwagons. So I still think it's plausible that Mom and the worst are scum together because at this point they might just have given up (that's the sense I'm getting from both).

I think the points you bring up about Irrelephant are good but I still don't think he's nearly as scummy as others (Errant, NM, Key, etc.). The thing about that Newbie game is that we had a lot of flips already including a scum flip; the game had narrowed down scum to 1 of 2 players so it made sense for Irrelephant to have some confidence about pushing OTM. But if you look closer you see that there is uncertainty about things, he even starts questioning me as town at some point until I pointed out why I couldn't be scum there - so I sort of expected him to come into the earlier part of this game with a lot more uncertainty about reads, especially since this game is a lot more complex and features some pretty competent scum players. I also get the sense that he's a tryhard player who would be pushing a very clear scum agenda if he were scum here, not sort of struggling to figure things out like the rest of us.
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Post Post #2351 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am

Post by skitter30 »

i guess the one thing i'm worried about wrt to tw is that i almost always scumread him? like he's a lot better at reading me than reading him and he's one of the people i've death-tunneled more than once

but when i death-tunnel town!him he's more like 'i'm sure you'll see that i'm town eventually' or like tries to read me based on the push or like tries to engage me and is pretty confident in his ability to towntell but like that isn't happenign here
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Post Post #2352 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am

Post by Shoshin »

In post 2348, Keyser Söze wrote:I didn’t call you rude, I was saying I didn’t want to be rude (because I was holding back vulgar language directed at you).

You caught me at a bad time, and I felt your scum narrative regarding my motivation to not post links to all my town/scum games was reachy/inane/disgenuine.

I do admit my reaction made something innocent into something that has been blown out of proportion.
Why'd you make up a bullshit excuse if you never intended to post links? And why get upset when I called you out for spewing bullshit? That doesn't make sense to me.
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Post Post #2353 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:52 am

Post by skitter30 »

oh gosh i think this linking-games thing is really stupid and not AI like at all; i think it's indicative of a personality clash more than anything else and id on't think harping on it will accomplish like anything
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Post Post #2354 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:54 am

Post by Shoshin »

I know you think that, Skitter. You've said it a couple times. I disagree, and I intend to continue this line of questioning until my concerns are cleared up.
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Post Post #2355 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:01 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 2352, Shoshin wrote:
In post 2348, Keyser Söze wrote:I didn’t call you rude, I was saying I didn’t want to be rude (because I was holding back vulgar language directed at you).

You caught me at a bad time, and I felt your scum narrative regarding my motivation to not post links to all my town/scum games was reachy/inane/disgenuine.

I do admit my reaction made something innocent into something that has been blown out of proportion.
Why'd you make up a bullshit excuse if you never intended to post links? And why get upset when I called you out for spewing bullshit? That doesn't make sense to me.
It was a half truth. I was watching a film, reading through Mom’s D2 posts on my phone.
I refused to link the games.
I’m stubborn.
It escalated.
You scum read me for it.

You should know though, you had Gustavo as strong town but have put him through hell and back (because you are stubborn) :giggle: I’d hate to see how you treat your scum reads! :lol:

You can cross out the hide-meta-theory from your book of scum tells.
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Post Post #2356 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:02 am

Post by Shoshin »

In post 2329, Nauci wrote:
In post 1996, Shoshin wrote:
In post 1993, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 1988, Shoshin wrote:Key, do you have any games as scum / town?
Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.
Can you link your games as scum?
In post 1997, Keyser Söze wrote:I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.
In post 1998, Shoshin wrote:
In post 1997, Keyser Söze wrote:I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.
How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?
In post 1999, Keyser Söze wrote:The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.
The fuck is this shit; it takes like 30 seconds to link previous games
btw I think this post is a massive town-tell for Nauci. In case anyone had any doubts.
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Post Post #2357 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:09 am

Post by Gustavo »

In post 2349, Keyser Söze wrote:She said for reactions...? Bait scum? The protection may not even be the reason why there was no NK...

I don’t know Gustavo. But we are not lynching a claimed doctor on D2. Let the night phase resolve your paranoia.
Yeah it doesn’t make sense. That’s been my thing the entire time. Her play overall since I’ve replaced in hasn’t made sense to me from a town pov.

Nobody was going to lynch her before the claim, I definitely know it’s not going to happen after which is why I unvoted.
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Post Post #2358 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:10 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 2356, Shoshin wrote:
In post 2329, Nauci wrote:
In post 1996, Shoshin wrote:
In post 1993, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 1988, Shoshin wrote:Key, do you have any games as scum / town?
Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.
Can you link your games as scum?
In post 1997, Keyser Söze wrote:I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.
In post 1998, Shoshin wrote:
In post 1997, Keyser Söze wrote:I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.
How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?
In post 1999, Keyser Söze wrote:The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.
The fuck is this shit; it takes like 30 seconds to link previous games
btw I think this post is a massive town-tell for Nauci. In case anyone had any doubts.
Same
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Post Post #2359 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:25 am

Post by Shoshin »

Why do you see it as a town-tell, Irrelephant?
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Post Post #2360 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:15 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Well, there was small part of me that thought her scum equity included being partners with Keyser, which I no longer see.
But also, and mainly, her getting this upset over not being cooperative seems v unlikely as scum. Like I just think she wouldn't think to have an angry response, I'd expect any of fake confusion/scumreading Keyser/taking his side to pocket him/ignoring it entirely instead.

Hbu?
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Post Post #2361 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:18 am

Post by Nauci »

Catch up through p91.
In post 2014, Bernie Sanders wrote:Let it slide for now I guess.
Sorry I'm slightly confused on what "it" was referring to here.
@Bernie
can you elucidate?

___
In post 2066, brassherald wrote:Speaking of two term presidents, Grover Cleveland is both the 22nd and 24th American President and is the only President to serve two non-consecutive terms.
Grover Cleveland also basically married his adopted daughter! He bought her a crib as a baby and then basically was her adoptive father at age 11 and then started dating her at like 18 or 19! Good times.

Totally serious and should be considered real warning to Nauci for possibly stealing a factoid from me. (I actually did not know this, though) -brass


___

Oh fuck I mentally noted TW's post about being the NK target as shenaniganry but just mentally connected that as some weird soft PR shit with what Math said is his MO (definitely as scum, possibly while also as town)

___

@Keyser
was your entire scum read of me "paranoia"? Was there more meat to it? You've discussed your other scumreads but I don't think you explained this one beyond paranoia due to irrelephant/tw posts?

___

@Irrelephant
who are your town reads right now, and how strong are they?

___

@BV
I made the vote counter because A: I wanted to have one because I have a hard time following vote patterns and because B: people were saying wall posts were bogging down the game so I thought I'd do something probably more helpful. Also I just have a penchance for doing programmatic stuff and started a bootcamp the day after \o/

Also most of my self meta is to pre-empt stuff I've previously dealth with that I would be erroneously scumread for. I don't think I make a lot of "I'd never/only do this as scum" but rather "I do this as either alignment so it's a dumb thing to scumread me for"?

I post my own tl;dr *with links to games* so people can verify my assertions and make it easier to read me by meta. Which I *do* think is a reliable way for others to read me. "I always do this" vs "I do this and here are 7 places I did so" are very different kinds of information.

I'm surprised that you think Skitter and I are that different. We've had different thoughts, but every time I read her reactions I feel like they're either ones that I've already made, or ones that I extremely understand. It's an even closer mind-meld than I had with Bellaphant in Team Mafia Tiebreaker, except I'm not paranoid about her alignment like I was with Bellaphant *because* of Bella being town. Like if you were to go through Skitter and I's posts in "real time" (as in matching my reactions to the same posts skitter was responding to, even if later), you'd see a ton of overlap.

___

@Shoshin
I think that *everything* Scumrelephant did was calculated, and his votes especially. He was opportunistic, but never blatantly so, and will try to run a wagon up on a player he considers threatening to scum if given the opportunity, as well as fall in line with a popular wagon without the greatest of reasons if necessary, including flip flopping. So don't let Irrelephant sheep without providing perspective,
ever
. I don't think Scumrrelephant would dare to start any wagons, but I'm not sure if Townrrelephant would either and will need to go read his town game. I do think Scumrrelephant is fairly reluctant to succumb to momentous town reads on formerly easy mislynches though, once he has declared a scum read on someone,
unless it's his partner
.

Lol Irrelephant. Correct in

___

@Gustavo
I don't see a case from you on Skitter. Why do you scumread her?

As to the programming question, language doesn't really matter? Like there are 50 follow up questions I have for how that would work like how you know when the data is updated and you'd probably have to setup some backend magic dependingon the answer to that quesiton, but it really doesn't matter what language you're using for the backend stuff or the frontend display/app except which platform you want for the app?

___

Every time I read more Keyser posts with a "hmm don't confbias him being town" I came away thinking he was town through day 1 and his analysis of various players at the beginning of day 2. Halfway through day 2 I have a few reasons to pull him towards null and into the "read meta then reevalluate" pile but it really wasn't until the stuff mentioned in my last post.

___
In post 2264, Momrangal wrote:
In post 1839, Bernie Sanders wrote:FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.
Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

-_- Again,
@mom
, today your V/LA did not extend to deadline so pressuring you when you would be back to actually read and engage (...or
choose
not to) is completely different. This is grasping at straws for reasons to make him look bad.

___

Looks like very few people have read/engaged with my catch ups so far even though I bolded names to make them easier to engage with :<
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Post Post #2362 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:24 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 2283, Gustavo wrote:You were combative when you didn’t need to be.
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Post Post #2363 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:25 am

Post by Gustavo »

In post 2361, Nauci wrote:Gustavo I don't see a case from you on Skitter. Why do you scumread her?
I don’t even remember anymore. It doesn’t matter anyway.
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Post Post #2364 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:27 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 2285, Shoshin wrote:Holy fuck, Gustavo. I didn't lie. And everyone in the game agrees with me, not you. You're just blinded by your own arrogance. And you're the one who has been needlessly combative from your very first question to me. Everyone in this game agrees with me, and if it weren't for Stun, lots of people wouldn't even townread you.

But whatever. I'm pretty tired of this, so fuck it, I'm just gonna claim because I'd rather have you invested in the game in a meaningful way.

I'm a doctor. I protected you last night.

I don't know if I'm the only doctor or protective in the game so I can't guarantee that Gustavo was the nightkill, but I'm guessing he was because it just makes a lot of sense.

I voted him today to see if I could tease out some reactions from scum. Then I decided to stop doing that because it was obviously pissing Gustavo off. I didn't think he'd actually abandon the wagon on Key because of my prodding but I guess he's obsessed with me to the point of still harping on all this lying bullshit.

And with that, I'll probably die tonight. Which is okay with me, I'm getting burned out from mafia anyway.

Now, Gustavo, stop talking about me and reevaluate the game please. I actually want your input and want you invested in this.
Hooooly shit

I don't even know how I would process this

Why on earth would <a very large number of things that I now don't understand>

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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Post Post #2365 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:33 am

Post by Gustavo »

In post 951, Gustavo wrote:
In post 191, Shoshin wrote:Nauci
Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?
This was combative?

:lol:

I guess scum hunting isn’t allowed anymore on this site if it’s going to be misrepped as combative
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Post Post #2366 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:40 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 2299, Gustavo wrote:So if you are town. You were combative when you didn’t need to be. You blatantly misrepped (lied) about your play last game (I proved this true), and you claimed doctor when you were under no threat of being lynched.

Yeah don’t worry if I’m wrong about you, I’ll never play with you again.

That said, I don’t think I’m wrong about you. It doesn’t matter though cause nobody is lynching you.

I will say that if you were town, there is no way scum would kill me so your story is definitely not believable. You as town were more likely the person to be killed.

Why would scum kill me unless my reads were right. If they are right you are scum
So, technically speaking, it's possible that scum(including scumshoshin) failed to skill gustavo for whatever reason, and Shoshin is claiming doctor because of the failed NK in hopes of either giving her conftown status OR baiting out an actual PR claim

But @Shoshin, what kinds of reactions were you hoping to provoke?

@Game, how many TPR would a 13 player normal usually have? 1-3?
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Post Post #2367 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:43 am

Post by Gustavo »

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Post Post #2368 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:44 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 2361, Nauci wrote:@Irrelephant who are your town reads right now, and how strong are they?
Shoshin, Gustavo, you, Bernie, errantparabola, skitter are my townreads, probably in that order?

I feel pretty confident on all but skitter, who I'm sheeping shoshin & blackvoid on. A
lot
would have to change for me to remotely interested in lynching any of those players (except, again, skitter). BV is null, everyone else is below null.

I feel like a lot has been sort of shouted into the void this game day, and I'm having trouble picking up the pieces in a coherent way. I feel like we've been dancing around lynching the worst or mom, and I'm leaning the worst but Bernie really thinks I should trust him and vote Mom, and idk I still think Not_Mafia has great odds at flipping red too. Keyser is clearly not getting lynched today but is not coming out from under my microscope tomorrow, especially given the new likelihood that Shoshin won't survive the night. Momrangal hasn't done much to help her case, which I'm tempted to townread because scum would (in my case anyway) care more, but Shoshin's right that she also feels like scum who has given up.

VOTE: mom, since I only unvoted her to talk and she doesn't seem to have a lot of time/willingness(?) to do so. I'd switch to any of my other three scumreads, too
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Post Post #2369 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:46 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Based on the wiki, if scum has a PR, probably 3. If not, probably 1
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Post Post #2370 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:46 am

Post by Nauci »

Well then between TW trying to soft claim and Shoshin hard claiming

I say we lynch TW

Especially since that is a classic Scum Worst meta play

However, I think that >1TPR in a 13 player game is totally plausible, AND I do put forth the idea that scum chose to not kill anyone night 1, bonus points for if irrelephant is scum!

Still finishing the last few pages but I have a growing gut feeling that irrelephant is scum and am currently working on gathering notes for that
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Post Post #2371 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:48 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 2369, Irrelephant11 wrote:Based on the wiki, if scum has a PR, probably 3. If not, probably 1
can you link me that page I couldn't find it TIA
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Post Post #2372 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:50 am

Post by Nauci »

@Irrelephant what are your thoughts on BV
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Post Post #2373 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:51 am

Post by Gustavo »

Sorry I thought you were asking about town protection roles
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Post Post #2374 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:53 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

I just browse the setups in my free time and that's the pattern I've noticed

Fineee I'll put work into reading BV
I've mostly been ignoring him because I townleaned math and he scumreads me and that makes me want to scumread him because I'm apparently bad at disassociating. I'll get back to you soon
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