Open 729 - Cul de Sac!

[Lavos]

[Lavos]

anyone around?

[Lavos]

YOU ALL DISAPPOINT ME

[Lavos]

MATHDINO IS TOWN
WAVEMODE IS TOWN

[Lavos]

MYLONINJA IS TOWN ALSO

[Lavos]

I was going to metaread Brass but apparently he's the backup mod lol

[Lavos]

right so that's the low-effort reads over with and I have to put actual effort into other reads which I don't wanna do right now so

[Lavos]

VOTE: unrealseal

I have identified mafia you can all thank me later

[Lavos]

awful winged sr that implies vts don't lurk

awful aa9 votepark

awful mathdino vote

[Lavos]

mutant looks decent. gonna sheep math on uglyduck, presumably they have meta experience if he's calling UD 100% town so

[Lavos]

guess seal buddy would likely be in {bj, awoo, sajj} so i'll read them tonight

[Lavos]

also ngl it kinda annoys me that nobody's ever online at the same time as me

also both my neighbours are dead and it's only d2 lol

[Lavos]

@Dino - is Duck your other partner ?

You know if this was another game I might join this wagon just to shut the people suspecting seal up. But I want to be part of the first town to win a 13p mountainous (according to Dino's stats anyway).

So we don't have time to feed your egos.

so, your scumreads are uglyduck and lavos but you're saying you would (in a hypothetical universe where this isn't mountainous blah blah) be willing to lynch unrealseal, whose wagon is composed of uglyduck and lavos, to "feed our egos"?

[Lavos]

hi awoo

what do you think of seal now? you kinda placed a vote on him and then moved your vote and then completely forgot about him? and started talking about mutant and duck as the lynch options.

[Lavos]

I also want to say that WCG obviously couldn't get into the game and has 13 posts. like, I have more posts than her already. people seem to be reading her over me (maybe just bujaber but i think there were more) and that's lame.

[Lavos]

I'm not saying it's like totally awful and game-ruining, I'm saying WCG is harder to read than me and is not able to post and it's just better for the town if people think of my slot as lavos now instead of wcg

[Lavos]

I mean I'm pretty easy to read on my main so I'd imagine I'm still easy enough to read here? even if I'm trying to use a different style the content is the same. and I've definitely like done stuff already.

I wouldn't consider you as scum with Seal until lylo after iso'ing you

[Lavos]

looking at the thread I'm assuming you mean US's math vote, how is that towny to you?

[Lavos]

the compromising bit is fine but it actually doesn't make sense because the unrealseal wagon is composed of your two strongest scumreads. i don't see why you're trying to convince us of anything if we're scum- of course nobody can be certain but I don't see why you would be willing to lynch a townread to prove to your scumreads that they're wrong. like, if they're scum, they already know and won't care and will just do the same thing again the next day.

factoring catgirl into a read on me is 100% fine and good and even optimal but like, I just think it's better for it to factor into a read on Lavos than to be the read in its entirety considering the slot is 100% lavos going forward.

[Lavos]

I've looked at her and imo she's just a typical player who can't really keep up with the game? Her ISO isn't towny but that doesn't change the fact that US's vote on her is scummy

[Lavos]

mutant who

do

you want to wagon?

[Lavos]

Fine. Its UD it is today!

VOTE: UglyDuck

Its L1 now.

This can be scum

[Lavos]

It would be a lot more possible to avoid lynching UD today if you guys would vote a somewhat viable counterwagon

[Lavos]

How about seal or aa9

Both are very good options imo. I'm voting seal currently

[Lavos]

sure let's do this

VOTE: AA9

[Lavos]

Why did aa9 wagon rise so fast on day 1 when I (one of the ones pushing for it) wasn't even voting on it. Did you think about that?

According to the votecounts AA9 wagon developed slowly

[Lavos]

And it developed about the same time as UD wagon and was bigger than it at most points so idk how you can argue that AA9 was just a counterwagon to UD

[Lavos]

UD you should vote aa9

[Lavos]

Yeah that definitely counts as a counterwagon and I missed that, sorry

It doesn't make aa9 town and UD scum though

[Lavos]

Just because scum don't have much motivation to push one wagon doesn't mean they're not on it, it just means they're not >random likely to be on it IMO. Like scum could have voted Invis if they felt it's what they would do as town

[Lavos]

Actually nvm that last comment I don't think both scum were on invis anyway

[Lavos]

I'm kinda wondering why it was so hard to get a Seal wagon going when nobody other than mutant seems to townread him

[Lavos]

ANNOUNCEMENT: IN CASE THIS WAS NOT CLEAR I OFFICIALLY AND DEFINITELY SCUMREAD UNREALSEAL. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING.

[Lavos]

Just dont speedlynch duck unless he scumclaims. We still need to wagon mutant today. Lets get the most out of life and probably lynch mutant today.

What happened to this awoo?

[Lavos]

Math/mutant can we do seal or awoo instead? Having cold feet on aa9 tbh

[Lavos]

Like, US had a horrible votepark on aa9 yesterday after he loljumped on the wagon and is lurking now, don't feel like it's US/aa9 and I really feel that US is scum

UNVOTE:

[Lavos]

Having cold feet on aa9 tbh

just curious but why

See below, I feel like aa9's only viable scummy partner is awoo? and that Seal has higher scum equity here

[Lavos]

VOTE: unrealseal

Back here, can also do awoo

[Lavos]

Like aa9's votehop was horrible yeah but thinking about it now aa9 is probably the kind of player who would not post for most of the day and then l-1 someone like she did as town

Having a much harder time seeing US!town

[Lavos]

VOTE: awoo
zzz if seal survives to win this I'll be upset

[Lavos]

Nope, wingedcatgirl passed the message from invis to nsg

I guess you could make the argument duck is being opportunistic but in practise I agree with his scumreads and the reasoning behind them

Seal pushing Mathdino doesn't win any awards for being controversial and I find scum dislike joining existing wagons in most cases just because it can be viewed as opportunistic

I didn't realise my posting style would make people uncomfortable, it's just natural for me and makes the game more fun when I can just post things while I'm thinking them, but if it's an issue I guess I'll stop

[Lavos]

idk about lavos yet he is posting so much content that is making me uncomftrable. Not about his alignment or anything, I just get squeamish when people post too many times in my slowmo chillout neighborhood game.

Posting style might have been a bit unclear, sorry

[Lavos]

I think the same argument applies to the mainthread? Mafia will be as townie as they can everywhere

[Lavos]

it was just a jab at how slow the game was don't get upset

Ok thanks for clarifying

[Lavos]

I don't see how you think a Mathdino vote will be helpful even if you think he's scum, he's almost certainly not getting lynched today

[Lavos]

Last awoo post makes me more confident in awoo/seal rn

[Lavos]

Still don't think it's aa9 :/

[Lavos]

We're giving mylo a free pass because this is his town game

[Lavos]

Yeah if this is his town game can't imagine how little he does as scum.

It's starting to feel like one of those people who bring a parent to a job interview and let them talk on their behalf.

Yeah I won't argue that he sheeps too much and it makes him hard to read but scum!Mylo is generally awkward and reluctant to do stuff

As scum he does maybe one or two wallposts throughout the whole game and otherwise just kinda lurks out

[Lavos]

Let me try reading lavos right now:
Actually I really like this guy. I dont think its a low standard for the game thing either. hops in, interacts, feels good. I think his scumread and progression on me isnt half bad either, but I'm not going to say why until both mutant and duck are dead LMAO

So. That leaves who exactly? Lavos.

[Lavos]

MATHDINO

[Lavos]

This one: viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75347

He was force-replaced in that game, that's hardly indicative of his alignment, not to mention that he has been inactive sitewide and it's not just this game

[Lavos]

I need to post content

UglyDuck is town, I'm gonna paraphrase the pt if he hasn't already

Lacking any other sensible lynch targets, Scioness should still be an option
Brinksmanship might be in her scumrange?

Anyway check my site activity I literally got prodded sitewide
I'm moving down the street
Sorry for not declaring vla

Do you think that Awoo is not a "sensible lynch target"

[Lavos]

Uhhhh so I'm an hour away from prodding and have nothing to talk about

I might be biased because LITERALLY BOTH OF MY NEIGHBOURS DIED BEFORE D2 and I've never had the chance to use one, but I don't really think hoods matter

[Lavos]

Okay well cases aren't my thing but I'll try

[Lavos]

Okay so this is what has bothered me about awoo's recentish stuff

TOP 3 poe. Wow, its 3 lurkers. AA9 is notably missing from this list.

Myloninja13
wingedcatgirl
Unreal Seal
VOTE: unreal seal

VOTE: uglyduck

wagoning mutant? probably the best choice. But uglyduck is looking fine right now. for a wagon. And i think you misspelled panties.


Just dont speedlynch duck unless he scumclaims. We still need to wagon mutant today. Lets get the most out of life and probably lynch mutant today.

Jumps on seal wagon, moves to uglyduck really quick, and then totally casts aside unrealseal as a wagon despite US being his #1 scumread earlier apparently. Like I can understand town jumping on the UD wagon if they want info from it or whatever, that's ok, but what I don't understand is how he's suddenly making this dichotomy between mutant or uglyduck when neither of them were in his top 3 scumreads earlier. to me this seems like they are partners and this is an abandoned bus, but even if this isn't the case I think it shows that awoo doesn't really have reads and is going with whatever is convenient to him while keeping mislynch options open. Like, he has stated suspicion of 5 other players at this point, with 10 alive excluding him. That's half of the game. And I just don't buy that he went from a scumpool of {US, Mylo, winged} to {UD, mutant} just like that

seal's 1062 is super town.
and I think uglyduck's recent post is. not that bad. Its probably exactly uglyduck/math if uglyduck scum. aaand i kind of want to kill mutant more to see if math dies in the night? hahah yeah right its going to be bujab nk'd who am i kidding

So. That leaves who exactly? Mylo. Lavos. Mutant. ...this game is unwinnable im out of steam for today. someone explain why we are all giving mylo a free pass through the game before i wake up. not unvoting duck just yet. I want to see a mutant wagon when I wake up. Please do all the work for me.

Still doing this thing where he mix-matches between mislynchable players. He crosses math and uglyduck off the lynchpool with weak reasoning and he makes it easy for them to later be introduced into it like Mylo and me were. "Uglyduck's last post wasn't that bad" is really easy to 180 on if you want to without it looking suspicious because that is really weak stuff, and the Math thing literally isn't reasoning. At all. "I don't want to lynch math because I want to see if he gets nightkilled except I already know he won't get nightkilled because it's completely obvious and I want to lynch mutant more so let's remove Math from a lynchpool containing two people who are not Mutant." I can't see the townie thought process for this.

BTW lavos im sorry for putting you in my POE by mistake please forgive me and for the record (SELFMETA WARNING) I tend to have very fixed positions as mafia and trap myself into thinking "the way to win the game is mislynch X -> mislynch Y -> mislynch Z, kill ABC", read my scumgames (purgatory comes to mind)

^This shows he doesn't really have reads because he's forgetting that he decided to temporarily remove me from his lynchpool earlier. I think if you ISO someone as town and get a townread on them, you remember that.

bujab who is the scum if you get nk'd? You better make that clear because the way this game is going, you're an active, engaged townie in a vanilla snoozefest, those don't last long.

See this is why I don't like cases. To me this post is scummy and slimy but I can't properly articulate why this is the case

If you want I could probably look at awoo's d1 and point out things that are scummy to me but in all honesty I haven't been reading Awoo based off that

[Lavos]

Okay so this is what has bothered me about awoo's recentish stuff

TOP 3 poe. Wow, its 3 lurkers. AA9 is notably missing from this list.

Myloninja13
wingedcatgirl
Unreal Seal
VOTE: unreal seal

VOTE: uglyduck

wagoning mutant? probably the best choice. But uglyduck is looking fine right now. for a wagon. And i think you misspelled panties.


Just dont speedlynch duck unless he scumclaims. We still need to wagon mutant today. Lets get the most out of life and probably lynch mutant today.

Jumps on seal wagon, moves to uglyduck really quick, and then totally casts aside unrealseal as a wagon despite US being his #1 scumread earlier apparently. Like I can understand town jumping on the UD wagon if they want info from it or whatever, that's ok, but what I don't understand is how he's suddenly making this dichotomy between mutant or uglyduck when neither of them were in his top 3 scumreads earlier. to me this seems like they are partners and this is an abandoned bus, but even if this isn't the case I think it shows that awoo doesn't really have reads and is going with whatever is convenient to him while keeping mislynch options open. Like, he has stated suspicion of 5 other players at this point, with 10 alive excluding him. That's half of the game. And I just don't buy that he went from a scumpool of {US, Mylo, winged} to {UD, mutant} just like that

seal's 1062 is super town.
and I think uglyduck's recent post is. not that bad. Its probably exactly uglyduck/math if uglyduck scum. aaand i kind of want to kill mutant more to see if math dies in the night? hahah yeah right its going to be bujab nk'd who am i kidding

So. That leaves who exactly? Mylo. Lavos. Mutant. ...this game is unwinnable im out of steam for today. someone explain why we are all giving mylo a free pass through the game before i wake up. not unvoting duck just yet. I want to see a mutant wagon when I wake up. Please do all the work for me.

Still doing this thing where he mix-matches between mislynchable players. He crosses math and uglyduck off the lynchpool with weak reasoning and he makes it easy for them to later be introduced into it like Mylo and me were. "Uglyduck's last post wasn't that bad" is really easy to 180 on if you want to without it looking suspicious because that is really weak stuff, and the Math thing literally isn't reasoning. At all. "I don't want to lynch math because I want to see if he gets nightkilled except I already know he won't get nightkilled because it's completely obvious and I want to lynch mutant more so let's remove Math from a lynchpool containing two people who are not Mutant." I can't see the townie thought process for this.

BTW lavos im sorry for putting you in my POE by mistake please forgive me and for the record (SELFMETA WARNING) I tend to have very fixed positions as mafia and trap myself into thinking "the way to win the game is mislynch X -> mislynch Y -> mislynch Z, kill ABC", read my scumgames (purgatory comes to mind)

^This shows he doesn't really have reads because he's forgetting that he decided to temporarily remove me from his lynchpool earlier. I think if you ISO someone as town and get a townread on them, you remember that.

bujab who is the scum if you get nk'd? You better make that clear because the way this game is going, you're an active, engaged townie in a vanilla snoozefest, those don't last long.

See this is why I don't like cases. To me this post is scummy and slimy but I can't properly articulate why this is the case

If you want I could probably look at awoo's d1 and point out things that are scummy to me but in all honesty I haven't been reading Awoo based off that

^this is why I sr awoo at least
also this is mountainous lol

[Lavos]

toranga wagon is bad

[Lavos]

I think I prefer Lavos tbh though.

you have said nothing about scumreading me OR wcg before this point

math/a50 is still town yeah

[Lavos]

"she unvoted someone while they were at L-2" is a good case to you?

[Lavos]

viewtopic.php?p=10264223#p10264223

A50 your own slot unvoted someone they were pushing here at l1 when the lynch was about to go through, is the scumteam a50/scioness?

[Lavos]

I was so lazy with that vote tag that I quoted and edited Almost50's post to do it.

Why did you post this

[Lavos]

Idk, when you say "I'm not really playing the game or reading it and I don't have real reads" three times in two consecutive posts it starts to feel fake and planned

[Lavos]

MY POST WAS LITERALLY RESPONDING TO YOUR POST. OF COURSE IF I'M HERE BUT NOT ACTIVELY POSTING SOMEONE POSTING SOMETHING I WANT TO RESPOND TO IS GOING TO MAKE ME POST.

[Lavos]

You're just making no sense

[Lavos]

VOTE: Unrealseal

[Lavos]

LOL.. I went back to see why Mathdino unvoted there, and it appears to have only happened after Scioness voted herself to L-1.

Also, you did not just unvote. You literally hopped unto another wagon. You didn't even say "I no longer SR AA9" or something along those lines. If you did (have a change of heart) the townie thing was to explain your updated read. You didn't, and it felt like either "I hope this mislynch goes through but I don't want to be blamed for it" OR "OMG! This went too fat and I didn't expect everyone to sheep me on my buddy".

This (jumping off a wagon when it looks like it might go through) I've seen often enough and do use as a scum hunting tool all the time. If you're town (big IF) be sure to not hop off a wagon when it reaches L-2/L-1 without a goof reason if I'm in the game.

HERE is an example of one time I caught scum for this exact same reason. (btw, Pintu hopped off Annen's wagon and their third was mutant, so mutant knows exactly what I'm talking about)

WCG jumping onto another wagon also makes sense if, you know, she's town who has a bigger scumnread now because the gamestate changes

It's like you're only looking at potential scum motivation and not potential town motivation

Sorry about all-capsing at you though I probably shouldn't have done that

[Lavos]

I'm not really paying attention to anyone's posting.

Because I "the equivalent of" scum read people. I would not be able to explain any of those reads though.

I was so lazy with that vote tag that I quoted and edited Almost50's post to do it.

^ these were the three times

[Lavos]

I am still adamant about the Mathdino/A50 slot but I guess we can lynch him in lylo anyways

I don't feel Awoo so VOTE: toranaga

Absolutely awful post ^

[Lavos]

Somebody vote Awoo and I will hammer for great justice

I'll vote Awoo later if he doesn't get L-1'd before then but I like hammering

[Lavos]

I'm not really paying attention to anyone's posting.

Because I "the equivalent of" scum read people. I would not be able to explain any of those reads though.

I was so lazy with that vote tag that I quoted and edited Almost50's post to do it.

^ these were the three times

I think you have a very loose definition of mentioning I'm not paying attention. Saying, I am not able to explain reads comes under that only at a push and stating I was lazy with a vote tag is hardly a notion of not paying attention. If anything, it states how I am not putting effort in. (though, ironically, I put more effort into typing that second sentence than I would have done if I typed the vote myself).

It's less about the exact definitions and more about what you're saying in general. All three basically try to convey the message that you're very unengaged with the game in an awkward way.

[Lavos]

VOTE: Mutant

Why the fuck are you voting for me? I would not expect this from you Mylo.

Also this reads as fake. Why don't you expect Mylo to vote for you? Unless I missed a game where Mylo had like an accurate metaread on you or something this is

[Lavos]

sigh

VOTE: almost50

why do you scumread a50?

[Lavos]

actually I don't think I want to sit here waiting for L-1.

VOTE: Awoo

[Lavos]

gonna sheep math on uglyduck, presumably they have meta experience if he's calling UD 100% town so

Jumps on seal wagon, moves to uglyduck really quick, and then totally casts aside unrealseal as a wagon despite US being his #1 scumread earlier apparently. Like I can understand town jumping on the UD wagon if they want info from it or whatever, that's ok, but what I don't understand is how he's suddenly making this dichotomy between mutant or uglyduck when neither of them were in his top 3 scumreads earlier. to me this seems like they are partners and this is an abandoned bus,

On my phone rn but lavos's rhetoric around duck and flip-flopping of opinion is a scumclaim, frankly, if duck flips scum

I was talking about an Awoo/UnrealSeal team there, not an Awoo/UglyDuck team.

[Lavos]

there is literally (actually literally) no reason for town to self hammer in VT games.
so Awoo is skum.

what

[Lavos]

Most of me feels like this is just wifom coming from awoo? and I hope most of me is correct.

[Lavos]

but like idk i lost track of this game for the most part because for me at least there are a lot of people around the same level of scumminess.

A50 slot is town, wave slot is town, buj slot probtown, Mylo probtown

[Lavos]

no uglyduck is saying that only scum would selfvote which is extremely questionable. i just still feel like awoo's position is like too confusing to be town if that makes sense??

[Lavos]

there, was never a wagon on me?

and I mean yeah I do think it's a scumtell from awoo but at the same time I also thought that uglyduck's position makes 0 sense and I am very confused.

[Lavos]

this whole thing where he like makes tons of contradictions and then is basically like "i'm just town playing as scum"

selfvotes are nai etc

[Lavos]

tor why is seal town?

[Lavos]

VOTE: Uglyduck

willing to go here, game feels easily PoEd

if this greens we lynch in {unreal, mutant} tomorrow, probably unreal. btw after playing some marathons not really confident in Mylo being town here anymore but we can get to that later.

[Lavos]

I was thinking that but then I realized I had enough townreads that lynching any moderately scummy player is likely to flip scum and we can draw associatives from that. Like I don't think I'm going to lynch ever in {wave, tor, a50, sajj}? and even if I get lynched which I probably will at some point we have enough lynches to the point where we'll probably lynch scum eventually and we can draw associatives from flips. for example if we flip uglyduck and he greens Unreal looks more attractive as a lynch, but if he reds I don't think they're likely scum together, and we're more likely looking at someone like mutant for a buddy.

[Lavos]

ok so are we doing uglyduck or are we not

[Lavos]

if we're not i think we should flashwagon mutant

the post that tor said was genuine honestly felt like something out of a play

[Lavos]

VOTE: Wavemode

[Lavos]

not really wanting to make a big case but what i see in this is that his progression on uglyduck isn't really realistic. the part where he sorts the guy isn't really there; instead it's like he

knows

the guy is scum from the start. for example bujaber's push wasn't constant; he seeks scumhunting activity elsewhere regularly and later sets up a Tor/lavos lynchpool as uglyduck takes a backseat. these kinds of fluid reads are things that often come from town.

wave decides UD is scum at one point and has exactly 0 doubt thereafter. his push on invis before this gets dropped; he hops on unreal at deadline because he kinda has to do that but jumps back on uglyduck asap. in general it feels at all times like he actually *knows* that uglyduck is scum.

and i already know what people are going to say about this; "but lavos! he was voting scum! that means he can't be scum!" and my answer to that is- no it doesn't. people on this site bus LITERALLY ALL THE TIME but hold the belief that scum wouldn't do the same for some reason I don't know.

like. let's look at recent normal games with scum lynches. if the playercount gets too low or 1 scum is left or there is a guilty i don't care about the data because it's irrelevant.

mini 2015: both wagons d1 were on scum and d2 was a guilty so this is hard to gather data from but one scum did vote another scum day one.

mini 2010: lynch on shoshin contained 1 scum, and the scum that wasn't shoshin and wasn't bussing shoshin was bussing the scum who was bussing shoshin.

mini 2009: scum bussed d3

mini 2002: cultofathena lynched d1. rare example of a time when there was no scum bussing, BUT one scum WAS voting another scumbutt.

mini 1996: implosion lynched d1. scum was on the wagon. the bussing scum, Mumble, had an earlier wagon which implosion was on. scum #3 was a lurker.

to be fair I haven't looked into just how far the bus went during these games but I do know that I have hardbussed my partner on my main before so I know it's definitely possible. in a 2-scum game the LAST thing you want is to be associated with your partner, period. because then scum loses. it's like white flag.

[Lavos]

don't really have time or motivation to respond to wave's shitstorm, wouldn't be surprised if it was intended to be too much to respond to and most of it will be irrelevant when i flip green. main gist of what i'd say is that the unrealistic thing about the progression isn't the buildup, it's the way his read is totally non-fluid and he rarely seeks any sort of scumhunting opportunity outside of uglyduck. his play is totally orientated around distancing from uglyduck- he treats his invis and US reads in a totally different way.

his narrative where scum's kills totally resolve around him is absurd. why the fuck would i kill bujaber because he wanted to lynch uglyduck

and then open the day with an uglyduck vote?

toranga was literally the only player trying to defend me in this ENTIRE GAME. saying he'd be joining the lynch on me is also absurd. in fact the kill was probably made so that this lynch would go smoothly.

on d4 wave will try and say "why would I push lavos so hard as scum??? I could get a ML elsewhere." this is shitty WIFOM and don't let him. this is a scum push trying to get his hands dirty. once i get lynched he will target someone else and set them up as scum with UD, and he can keep doing it since I'm the only one willing to go against him.

D4 lynch must be wavemode if you want to win. On the like 10% chance he is town A50 is the best lynch d5 and if that's town too look into {sajj, mutant}. i would be pretty mad in the dead pt if wavemode lived to endgame OR you lynched outside of those four. mylo is lynchbait but don't dwell on that please.

bye.

[Lavos]

OH LMFAO THAT WAS A REAL HAMMER for some reason I thought it was 5 votes to lynch and A50 was fakehammering

gg sorry for being terrible scum. ftr bujaber kill was because we both thought that he was a) good and b) charismatic. I was going to kill wave n3 actually and submitted that action but UD wanted tor and I am ~bad scum~ so I went with what he wanted instead.

[Lavos]

maybe I shouldn't have like pushed wavemode but I thought that there was basically no chance to win the game if I didn't try something crazy and WIFOMy. I was hoping someone would tr me because my push was one of the hardest lynches in the game but yeah didn't work. I was going to selfvote before the L-1 and try to just look like dumbtown but when I got back here I was already lyncheds so...