Open 729 - Cul de Sac!

[Toranaga]

hello folks

[Toranaga]

I'll totally read this game, I swear

I just happen to be a little time restrained right now

also HWS: your avatar is still lynch bait

[Toranaga]

there's really no rational reason not to lynch uglyduck today

but i could potentially go aa9 or seal

can you go over why you think this?

[Toranaga]

you know i don't think 2:11 vanilla has ever been won by town on MS

on the other hand, neighbours are clearly higher EV for scum than for town

idk what to make of any of this

i don't think "not using the hoods at all" is the answer

I think not using the hoods at all is a good strategy if you can't stop yourself from being pocketed by wolves in it.

hoods can certainly be protown when everyone in the hood is town.

[Toranaga]

I read the first 15 posts of mathdino and I'm pretty confidently townreading him. he goes over mechanical talks a lot as both alignments but here he just feels sincere and passionate about it.

[Toranaga]

post 0 in your neighbor topic says that it closes when one of the neighbors dies

can't believe we lynched the guy that said this

also mutantdevle started pretty wolfy IME

[Toranaga]

k so you're gonna be condescending/sarcastic about everything, got it

come back when you have sincere lines of questioning

mutant is currently the best wagon, scum-mutant scumtells early and buries you with walls as the day goes on

I really wanna sheep this. I think mutant's start was pretty wolfy.

[Toranaga]

Ehh, fuck it.

VOTE: wavemode

" ehh, fuck it"? what is this in reaction to?

[Toranaga]

Math and wavemode are neighbors yeah? That seems to be the subtext.

Anyway a scum claim is a great reason to vote someone for. VOTE: wavemode

Townlean on SS and invisibility.

when did wavemode scumclaim?

[Toranaga]

hard to read currently, most peoples post currently is RVS silliness and i'm bad at reading in general. call me again when I can deathtunnel someone

I like StefanB's posting though, I think he's town.

that's not true about the threadstate. there have been many alignment indicative discussions and very little actual RVS other than the first page. I find the stefan's townread a little out of the blue. nothing he did pinged me either way, especially in comparison to math/mutant/wave. I wish seal could expand on his stefan read so I can see where he is coming from with it.

[Toranaga]

hard to read currently, most peoples post currently is RVS silliness and i'm bad at reading in general. call me again when I can deathtunnel someone

I like StefanB's posting though, I think he's town.

i sring everything you post

im bad at the game tho

I like this from sajj a lot.

[Toranaga]

my attention is gone from trying to read this.

I like math a lot and think he is almost always town here, and I think scion is town. mutant and unreal wrote wolfy things but at least mutant improved his posting a lot.

I'll read more later.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: unrealseal

[Toranaga]

@ِAwoo: You wanna help me lynch scum? Pick one of Lavos or Toranaga. UD is 99% Town (Second only to BuJaber and even stronger than mutant, all of which I have down as "Town-all-Town" now)

I'm town though

maybe I should read lavos

[Toranaga]

OK, lets try it then. VOTE: tornaga

that's wolfy

[Toranaga]

Ehh, it's fine. I think the 3 votes on this page are the only votes for them.

I think I prefer Lavos tbh though.

LOL no it's not, I'm arcangel... I'm L-1 with your vote

[Toranaga]

in before I'm accidentally hammered

I'm town, I subbed into town slot and this will fuck us up.

remove your votes.

[Toranaga]

what's wolfy about lavos?

[Toranaga]

suits me right for lolsubbing into a game that's this long when I have no intention of reading it

I think A50 is town and just wrong about things. jumps on my wagon are disgustingly wolfy though.

[Toranaga]

UNVOTE: toranaga

Why?

MFW when strong townreads force me to reconsider.

You either didn't realize that you put Tora at L-2 when you voted which is scummy... or you're changing your mind that quickly based on things tora would be saying regardless of alignment.

how is it scummy? is it scummy of mutantdevle to not realise he put me at L-1 as well? because he openly stated he thought there were only 3 votes on me.

[Toranaga]

Yes but the difderence is mutant obviously checked straight after (albeit still wrong) and still decided to keep his vote. Sajj is abandoning the wagon after someone else just joined it.. why?

But ftr a townie can do scummy things too. Had a game where someone's entire case on someone was based on their definitions of words like scummy.

Pedit - above is @tora

I have the feeling they weren't making the connection between me and the slot I replaced in, regardless of their alignment.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: awoo

[Toranaga]

I might be pocketed but I found nothing scummy in lavos' ISO and think him calling my wagon bad right now doesn't work well with a scum agenda.

I also like sajj unvoting me and townreading my posts.

A50 gonna A50 and mathdino was pretty towny IME before him.

[Toranaga]

I've explained it before, but here's the tl;dr: It was wcg who jumped off the AA9 wagon and not vice versa. The move opff the wagon is scummy by itself. It could either be off a p or a townie, so Tor (AA9) is a less confident SR than Lavos (wcg) is for me.

why is it scummy?

[Toranaga]

I've explained it before, but here's the tl;dr: It was wcg who jumped off the AA9 wagon and not vice versa. The move opff the wagon is scummy by itself. It could either be off a p or a townie, so Tor (AA9) is a less confident SR than Lavos (wcg) is for me.

why is it scummy?

1168! I mean, I haven't been here for long. All my posts are within the previous 2 pages.

that unvote was wcg voting someone else because they hated their content and has absolutely nothing to do with anything you said would be scummy about an unvote. I know your associative read is wrong so it's hard for me to take the casing seriously regardless, but this is just randomly calling two people scum together with no evidence or reasoning behind it.

[Toranaga]

In other news I liked awoo's posting in 450~ ish page

[Toranaga]

Ehh, it's fine. I think the 3 votes on this page are the only votes for them.

I think I prefer Lavos tbh though.

are you literally sheeping A50's case when you say this? no better wolf suspects? you've been playing the game since it started, why are you sheeping an associative read from a player that just subbed in?

[Toranaga]

mutant's ISO is pretty bad if you ask me.

[Toranaga]

Lol your last 2 posts make it look like you've suddenly

decided

to scum read me.


Also, I'm voting on that wagon because it's popular. But that 2nd line was noting how, out of Almost50's 2 scum reads, I'd prefer Lavos. Since, y'know, Almost50's reads were relevant at the time since he just subbed in.

I have wolfread you from the moment I started reading the game if you're paying any attention to my posting.

do you scumread anyone?

[Toranaga]

I have read like 15 pages and

Mutant town
BuJaber town
Lavos probably town but it feels weird because we didn't really talk idk
The rest is meh or forgotten

So that's more or less {duck, dog, seal} I think

can you show me the towny posts mutant made?

[Toranaga]

alright, I'm town but I'm not really in the mood to defend myself nor do I have something much better to go with since I didn't read the game.

VOTE: mutantdevle

I might be lynched already but alas.

[Toranaga]

sucks to join a game that's absolutely dead and no one wants to do anything, and then A50 comes with awful nonsensical lolreads that all you goddamn fools decided to sheep for no reason.

gl town.

[Toranaga]

unless it's mutant/duck i don't think he would suggest this

nothing mutant wrote there is towny

[Toranaga]

I'm amazed there's only 2 scum and not 4 the way you guys post.

[Toranaga]

btw my scumteam guess is unrealseal/mutantdevle

not POE or anything, just the two players who never wrote anything towny this game

[Toranaga]

I'm L-1. not lynched yet. maybe don't lynch me?

[Toranaga]

@Tora - A50 wants to lynch lavos not you. His whole case is on him. He says you

could

be his partner or you could be town. Either one doesn't change his opinion on lavos. You say people aren't paying attention.. how about you start.

@A50 - catgirl has made some awful posts, but her inactivity and replace out seems more consistent. She barely played since the start until she got replaced. Aa9 seemed more reactive. Her postcount shot up when she was a popular wagon then died again after the pressure wore off. I only backed off initially from her wagon because dino told me she's not a native english speaker and because her wagon grew suspiciously fast at a time when everyone claimed they had other SRs. And it was a counterwagon to duck who was my strongest SR.

That said I wouldn't hate it if catgirl slot got lynched. But I'm leaning towards 1 scum only among catgirl / duck / aa9 so if tora is the scum we are likely lynching a townie in lavos.(and vice versa)

it's an awful associative read with me and the case on lavos is entirely empty. his reasoning for scumreading lavos doesn't fit what whatever player he replaced for said or why they unvoted my slot. people started going with lynching between the options A50 selected, one of them is me.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: unrealseal

why is this town? anyone?

[Toranaga]

it's an awful associative read

My point was it doesn't count as an associative read. He is lynching lavos regardless.

IF lavos flips scum and A50 tomorrow comes in and says lynch Tora because lavos unvoted him that would be associative. And if it is his only reason it'd be a weak case too.

its associative cause hed lynch both

anyway off to bed for real

I tried

[Toranaga]

I am still adamant about the Mathdino/A50 slot but I guess we can lynch him in lylo anyways

I don't feel Awoo so VOTE: toranaga

Absolutely awful post ^

I KNOW RIGHT

[Toranaga]

me and US are both l-1, aren't we?

[Toranaga]

unrealseal actually at L-2

I'm the one with 5 votes on me

[Toranaga]

was about to hammer
by my count you have 3 votes

Yeah so I am bad at this an catching up but it seems to be by my count:

Tor (3): BuJaber, WaveMode, US
Awoo (1): UD
US (4): Tor, Awoo, Lavos, Mylo
Lavos (2): Alm, Mutant

No Vote (1): Scioness


Seal has been on my radar the whole day. I still want an Awoo lynch, but as that does not appear to be happening...

VOTE: UnrealSeal

***If my VC is correct, that is L-1***

for US is correct

I'm 100% sure I'm also L-1 though

[Toranaga]

Are there mistakes last vc?

I think I made a mistake counting and that manual VC by duck is correct

[Toranaga]

unrealseal posting at L-1 is almost too bad to be a wolf (notice I'm not townreading this). no attempt at defending himself or argue for a different wagon.

[Toranaga]

I don't know how toshiro mifune wearing such awesome hat isn't default townread anyway

[Toranaga]

this is a real time picture of me subbing into a mislynch bait slot and saving it

[Toranaga]

this is a real time picture of me subbing into a mislynch bait slot and saving it

FMP

[Toranaga]

guess I'll just leave this

lynch A50/Mathdino

Bujaber is town

Awoo is town

mutant might be scum maybe idk

you know, I'd townread the weak effort you're making at trying to appear like you're town and just not concerned or invested with the game to change anything, but I know better now to know this is the easiest way to fake your way out of a lynch if you're unwilling to put some effort into it. looking into what your reads are, I don't understand how you'd jump to my wagon at all.

[Toranaga]

UNVOTE: unrealseal

US, if you're town, work with me. come here and play. I'm concerned we could be dealing with a minimally effort heavy scum team that will absolutely run past town if town players like you are town. you're being too apathetic.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: UglyDuck

Please vote for tora or lavos

I will be open to any other candidate tomorrow. Actually that's a lie. If they're alive sorting A50, mutant, and Awoo is top priority tomorrow.

why is unrealseal town?

[Toranaga]

If whoever we lynch is town that is, we look at those 3 to determine if they're town or notm

If we lynch Tora/lavos and they flip scum then it's game on and our job is easier because we have associatives. nd in that case UD becomes a townlean tbh as I don't think he can be scum with either of them.

So for both reasons don't vote Duck now.

those are pre-flip associatives, yes?

did you make that lavos/myself associative read before A50 pointed it out or are you sheeping him? or do you have any other reason to believe me and lavos are a scum pair?

[Toranaga]

Because he's playing like a townie.

Not a particularly useful one but a townie nonetheless.

This was more clear in day 1 than day 2 I admit, but usually when prod dodges he actively participates on whatever the topic on hand is. Unlike some of the others where they come in defending themselves and making excuses and jumping on wagons.

Pedit - no I actually have the opposite associative. If you flip scum lavos is cleared. That's why I want one of you lynched. Of course it would suck if whoever we lynch flips town because that doesn't necessarily mean the other is scum. The associative works only one-way.

you're proposing that if I'm scum someone else is cleared. that just means I'm less likely to flip scum because I have one less partner inside your POE. notice I'm not with mathdino, I'm not with lavos according to you (not really sure why and funny A50 has the exact opposite associative read), and I'd suggest it's unlikely I'm either with mutantdevle or awoo. who would be my most likely scum partner if I was scum? according to your own POE, it's hard to even find a partner for me, yes? then you should go lynch someone that has more pair equity with other people in your POE, and not the other way around. notice I'm not defending the pre flip associatives, I'm just pointing to your logic not favouring the lynches you want going through.

you should lynch the scummiest player in the game. who is it in your estimation?

[Toranaga]

i guess I'll try to actually play

@tora I jumped to your wagon because were nearing deadline and the wagons constantly rotate between the same few people and the fact that nobody will actually lynch the person who I genuinely believe is the most beneficial lynch at this moment.

I hate pretty much every wagon on the board (Awoo I feel I've gotten a pretty good read on, UglyDuck hasn't really done anything I find scumworthy, and of course the other wagon is me).

I want an A50/Mathdino lynch because I genuinely think the associative reads off of that would be seriously gamechanging (if town: clear Uglyduck/Wavemode, sus Scioness/Mutant, vice versa for scum dino flip).

If you want who I believe who is most likely to flip scum, I'd say mutant or the WCG slot by PoE.

tbh I'm tired af (haven't slept in like 12 hours now and I still need to be awake) so most of this post'll probably be nonsensical.

I think you're town now. I've been on mutantdevle the whole game, maybe let's go there?

[Toranaga]

I love this game "Hey lets vote up this guy! " * L-1 * "woah guys im town * "Oh hey a squirrel!" *squirrel is now at L-1

haha

VOTE: mutantdevle

[Toranaga]

@Tor: Does it not tell you anything that half the players are willing to lynch you? I mean, let's assume you're town.. you haven't shown it! This is hard for me to grasp bc I know you

can

obv!town. Give me some effort. Give some analysis. Give me something to make me go "Oh, this is Town!Tor for sure. I won't be lynching this one."

This game is about reads and impressions (and especially so when there are no PRs). Let's

hypothetically

assume BuJaber is scum. Good for him and he deserves to win because he managed to conceal it and looked townie enough I wouldn't even consider lynching him in a 3-p LyLo.

Now everybody please stop whining and blaming everyone else but yourselves. If this game had PRs I'd understand some would not want to obv!town so they won't get NK'd before they deliver some results. In mountainous though all you have to do is obv!town and scum hunt w/o conservation. Am I right or amirite?

IDK what more can be wanted from me. I subbed in not too long ago, I didn't read the whole game and the case on me isn't about my posting but my predecessor. I have been towny and the players who bothered to read into what I'm doing are townreading me. I got these vibes from awoo, lavos, even from unrealseal when we started interacting. the people who are voting me are either doing it for association, because they don't like aa9 or because they're just scum hopping on a wagon. I'm doing my best with what I got, which was a highly POE'd down slot on a game with only 2 scum and no scum flips. I've posted way more than my predecessor did, but are you trying to read into it? are you genuinely trying to parse me out based off my posting? cause I don't think you are. I'm not gonna read the entire game and come up with the solutions to everything, but as the day progresses I feel I'm getting a better handle of the game, and that's all I can do right now.

if you can't townread me, that's fine. I expect you to be logic driven and unlikely to tone read. I've seen your TvT deathtunnels before and there's not much I can do about it.

[Toranaga]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck, and got the impression he is more free flowy as a villager and less likely to post correct formulaic stuff when he rands town. as a wolf, his play is more like this and less like his towngame. it's kind of a thin read cause I didn't read any of the games with close attention neither did I read this one in context, only ISOs.

I've also metadived unrealseal but lots of things are ongoing so I can't comment. gun to my head he is town here. I like his solvey post to me.

also @unrealseal, are you someone's alt or a new account?

[Toranaga]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck,

I've also metadived unrealseal

Me next, me next!

you know what

ok

[Toranaga]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck,

I've also metadived unrealseal

Me next, me next!

you know what

ok

viewtopic.php?t=75812&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I'm reading this and I don't think I can parse you out by metadiving you at all cause this looks a lot like what you're displaying in that game. is there anything you think is either a towntell or a scumtell for you that you're showing here or there?

[Toranaga]

I'm not doing emotional posting on purpose. I am a bit frustrated that I replaced into this for obvious reasons. I'm not missing the context of A50's push on my slot. it's literally an associative read that he wants either me or lavos flipped for. he explained in detail that it's just that.

speaking of me voting unrealseal and asking if there was anything towny about him, combined with you not seeing a town agenda in my play: I have unvoted unrealseal when he was at L-1 and asked him to play the game because I got a townvibe from his posting. as a response, he provided reasons for everything he did, which I liked and found it comes from town more often than not. this was me being pro-town, no? especially if, as you seem to believe, US is town?

I'm not going to case people hard when I don't know them and am just reading their ISOs. people can be illogical, weird and wrong and none of these things mean they're scum. Everyone I'm parsing out in real time, trying to interact with them. I did this with awoo. I did this with unrealseal. I'm willing to believe you and lavos are genuine. it's a different playstyle, that might not work for you, might not even work on MS, but it's how I solve. I can stop at any point and read the entire thread, but it's not something I'm willing to do right now. if it gets me lynched, then so be it. I tried harder than everyone this gameday, I have no regrets.

[Toranaga]

454: Thanks, I hate it
UNVOTE: VOTE: UglyDuck

That's EXACTLY what I've been looking for/expecting. Mainly, I wanted to know if wcg unvoted AA9 first or Dino did. Then I wanted to know her reasoning for it.

So, unvoting AA9 when she gets to L-2 (when you've been leading the wagon on her) is

always

alarming in my book. The question is whether it's scum jumping off a scum partner, or scum jumping off a town wagon that now looks like going through.

My answer is it's more likely the former, since wcg needed to simultaneously find a different vote target to justify it. Usually when scum jump off a town wagon they just unvote and say something along the lines of "I'm not too confident.." or "This wagon is building too fast.." or "I don't want to end the day just yet.." or "I don't trust X on the wagon..".. etc. etc.

So, in conclusion I'm calling Lavos and Toranaga as the scum pair here.

Still not sure if there should be a 3rd, but obviously you all are confident HWS made a mistake in the OP, so I'll look for a 3rd scum if and only if we lynch these two and the game still doesn't end.

NOTE: I got what I wanted, so I won't be reading the rest of the main thread. I'll now check the neighborhoods for details.

@bujaber: bolded and this whole thing really. idk what else you're interpreting from A50.

[Toranaga]

wrt lavos, I like that he defended me the way he did and I thought his ISO was decent. the caps lock posting threw me off a bit but I can see someone being genuinely frustrated with A50 at any rate. why do you scumread lavos?

[Toranaga]

Eh mostly for catgirl. Lavos seems nullish so far. That's why I find TRs on him interesting.

what do you think of mutantdevle?

[Toranaga]

I'm reading the entire game rn btw

[Toranaga]

UNVOTE: mutant

[Toranaga]

alright I read the first 8 pages of this and I think that's enough to give me a decent overview of how this game actually looks like and start POE'ing down the scum.

Up to post #200 I have mathdino, mutant, US, bujaber and stefan as early townreads.

mathdino strikes me as overly confident and down to business from the get go, with many posts that feel genuine sounding and legitimately scumhunting. I like how he hard scumreads mutant early. #54 "mutant is currently the best wagon, scum-mutant scumtells early and buries you with walls as the day goes on" line feels very genuine. #96 is also good and I especially like the "everyone who's posted except mutant is town". it's a very bold statement when most of the players have already posted, and I find it unlikely it'd come from a wolf here. so for better or worse, at least in the first 200 posts, I have mathdino/a50 as very strong town.

mutant: in isolation his posts seem bad, but in context I actually quite like his content and think he started pretty towny. #143 feels genuinely bothered with mathdino, which I guess he would be regardless of rand, but he seems to be legitimately thinking through why math scumreads him and coming up with all those reasonable explanations of why he is doing so, which is villagery kind of depth. #150 feels like a natural reaction to being townread by NSG when math scumreads both, #153 is a good follow up and the wave read seems to come from a genuine place. #160 is towny gamesolving with zero fluff, so is the #161 follow up. #185 is good reaction to being voted, #186 is good reaction to being questioned. he feels genuine in his scumhunt throughout. I couldn't catch these things at first glance because I was just ISOing him instead of reading his posts in context.

bujaber's first 3 posts are really towny. I'm strong townreading him on interactions with me anyway, but doesn't hurt to mention: #82 is a good start. I like the push on wave for scumclaiming. #85 is a decent read on mathdino and how I read math this game as well. #180 feels genuine.

I like stefan's attitude. #65 is a villagery stance on mathdino, when he says he is not scumreading mathdino, but is paranoid over him while agreeing mathdino's theories are protown.

UnrealSeal: I understand disliking mathdino's pessimism over 2 vs 11 never being won by town, as I got uneasy feelings about it myself, but then to say he thinks it comes from a town point of view is an apparent contradiction, but he explains better in #196 and I think his stance on math makes a lot of sense. I dislike #107 because there wasn't any RVS silliness so his comments don't fit the gamestate, but overrall he jsut gives me town feelings.

[Toranaga]

in these 200 posts the one player I really disliked was scioness. #40 is awkward. saying "I don't want my neighbours revealed yet, they seem pretty cool" doesn't feel like a legitimate stance on outing the neighborhoods, and more likely pocketing/appeasing to his neighbours when I'm sure there was very little reason to townread either. posts like #81 and #87 are empty and he doesn't seem to be addressing anything in particular. #97 is wolfy. "hi math, game solved?" comes after math says everyone but mutant is a villager posting. he is not interacting with math's reads, doesn't wanna push it, isn't concerned with it, doesn't disagree with it. it feels like he is trying to buddy math here. #102 "this makes me sad" comes after math says NSG is scum, and when asked about why it makes him sad, scioness replies with "because I want to believe". it's very awkward and entirely illogical. it's also more fake interacting with reads, not providing anything of his own and just buddying and rolling with whatever math says. it does not look good. #131 is pretty disingenuous self awareness, as I'm sure he knows he didn't do anything towny yet to be townread. this is kind of a scumclaim IMO. I could go further (I dislike #177, #188 and #192 as well) but this is enough reasoning for me to vote him today.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: scioness sajj

[Toranaga]

great progression you got there

that's my impression as per page 8. I'm still reading the game, had to take a break so I thought I'd postdump what I had. I think you were towny when interacting with and reacting to my posting later on, but I wanna get there first to see how those interactions weigh with what I think was a wolfy start.

my other wolfread as per that page was duck. I think his reasoning for townreading you was illegitimate and even turned out to be wrong meta, and his big reads list feels crafted.

[Toranaga]

#230 from you is pretty good.

[Toranaga]

Arc none of your points match up to my version of reality.

-post 183 is not a scum claim
-I don't think it's accurate that I 'hardly said anything'
-My question about neighborhoods had nothing to do with the previous discussion involving Dino & co. They spoke about whether or not it is helpful to say things in hoods but not in thread. I asked about a specific way of using the hoods. I understood them just fine I was opening a new discussion about a similar but different thing.
-I didn't need justification to vote. I wanted to hear wave's justification for

his

vote. I didn't vote for duck earlier because 1. I'm happy voting either of you or duck and 2. I was scumreading wave until his justification of the duck vote.

And btw I think there is

only

one scum between you and duck

so if you're town he isn't and vice versa. This is not because of any connection between you (though now you told us he's your neighbor maybe we'll see something) but it's a statistical bet based on things I've noticed from scum opening posts. I believe that statistically if you have 25% or more of the players starting the game with some sort of apology for lateness or their inactivity then 1 of them is scum and just piggybacking on the others' excuses.

how can you make an associative read, and then say there's no connection between the players you're making an associative read on? how is it that only one scum player will excuse themselves? why can't it be both?

[Toranaga]

the interaction between scioness and NSG that ends with this post:

Last time you were so confident on your read on me you were scum

feels genuine. I like how scioness progresses from exposing her uneasiness with being scumread (#267), to a fairly relatable reasoning as far as getting death tunneled go (#269), and I like the phrasing "between amused and confused", to actually casting suspicion on NSG. I believe this.

[Toranaga]

and she maintains it genuine to #279. I'm comfortable with scioness again.

[Toranaga]

wingedcatgirl's posting is horrible.

[Toranaga]

Read some ISOs. Got some feels.

that's not really elaboration I was looking for

That seemed likely. It's what I have.

(1)I'm still only half-here, honestly, so right now I'm mainly trying to make sure I don't fall out of the game entirely.

Anyway, with the last few pages in account I'm gonna UNVOTE:

(2)VOTE: ArcAngel9

. I dislike 244 in particular.

1: A prod dodge that she actively admits to

2: a weak ass opportunistic vote with little reasoning.

in a game with no PR's

VOTE: wingedcatgirl

^

very good vote.

[Toranaga]

NSG's early posts bugged me but she seems fine now. I voted her mostly to see what would happen, and the answer seems to have been "not much".

Arc

super

bugs me right now. hence the vote :V

I'm really confused about mutant "liking" my first and at the time only post.

I could form more thoughts but I need to go to sleep. I'll get back to y'all tomorrow.

why are we letting this shit slide?

[Toranaga]

Honestly at this point winged cat kinda just seems to be newer. Not reading skum thereat this point.

But also WC - in this set up interaction is important. So probably step that up a bit

this does not feel like TMI on alignments. I mean, if he is a wolf and winged is a villager he wants this to be pushed, right? and if he is wolfing with her, I'm sure her posting would jump out on him as wolfy and he couldn't possibly townread it. I'm gonna say UD is especially a villager if WCG flips wolf.

[Toranaga]

I mean, we can lynch both. AA9 looks like she's at least trying to provide content, WCG literally just sheeps (she voted NSG after Invis did the same) without providing any real content.

Like, I sheeped you but at least I am trying to play the game.

very pure posting by US and I like the way he is pushing WCG. her posts are jumping out on me as very scummy too, and I'm surprised few people are picking it up (and awoo entered the game by townreading her, which is unexpected).

[Toranaga]

OK sorry about that earlier post here is my real catchup

The police has been tipped that the local Mafia is very active in this neighborhood and has

three

of its kingpins living in the tight-knit communit

this pretty much confirms the moderator is mafia, since we know 2 players are mafia.

Im going to dump my raw catchup here. Industrial quality unrefined notes, not for human consumption. Nothing is clear, ask for clarification, enter at own risk.

Spoiler: notes

page 9

mutantdevle
=======================
19/20 are way too concerned about appearnce
67/73 bad interaction.
jumps on wavemode right afterbujaber 84 ehh fuck it
>first response to getting scum read is "you're scum lynching me im easy mislynch"
227 suspicoius. agree without reason??

Scioness Sajj
=======================
decent votes page1
120 vote on seal? weird but good continuing good feleings

Mathdino
=======================
top town tbh
+ for finding mutant

Myloninja13
=======================
zero content

northsidegal
=======================
first vote on scioness? wtf weird.
i liked post 264 since that was exactly what i was thinking
not terible voting arcangel either

wingedcatgirl
=======================
who?
280 not terrible

Invisibility
=======================
decent thoughts on NSG i can see why one might think that
287 sick callout

BuJaber
=======================
dislike 82 / vote on wavemode. overjustifying his vote it feels like.
good votes though. and i like him overall

Unreal Seal
=======================
i dont think hes mafia but i cant remmeber why.
i think hes getting picked on by bad men

UglyDuck
=======================
194 pings me because it contradicts my reads LOL but seriously:
calls seal scummy for what i deem to be fabricated reasons
calls mutant towny
refuses to put a hard scumread anywhere
250 seemed genuine
283 not terrible either
--- guy reads like hes realaly trying to find the mafias

ArcAngel9
=======================
hmm
wavemode
=======================
bad 174

Conclusions:
Townpool in {scioness, math, invis (?), seal, duck}
not likely mafia {bujab}
content not found { mylo}
kinda ignored them while i was reading {winggirl, wave}
Killpool in {mutant, nsg, angel}
VOTE: arcangel9

you just said you were townreading winggirl. how come you're now implying you've been ignoring them? did you forget you said she was a townread or something like that?

[Toranaga]

scioness is town

math, unrealseal town as well

[Toranaga]

awoo's posting is horrible.

[Toranaga]

One of my neighbours was replaced

lmao Stefan lied to me, apparently

Did you ask him or did he volunteer the information?

He did mention it on his own

Because if you're lying about you not asking him then you're scum. But basically with your information this makes Stefan my biggest suspect.

Why would town give you info on his neighbors without mentioning it in thread? He didn't give me (his other neighbor) the same information about you. Why is he trusting you in particular as a townie?

More than that in our last game together he was a town neighbor with scum and he was very open in public about what happens in the PT. He also barely talked beyond in my PT beyond greetings and asking me if I'm town and just a few friendly comments regarding our last game together (we are both hoping to play a game together where we're both town as that hasn't happened yet and we like each other)

So good reason to suspect Stefan.
VOTE: Awoo

this is solid.

[Toranaga]

bujaber is definitely town

[Toranaga]

bujaber's suspicion on his neighborhood being outed to scioness reads very pure, even if it was eventually outed as kind of a misunderstanding since stefan disappeared around the time he outed the hood.

[Toranaga]

454: Thanks, I hate it
UNVOTE: VOTE: UglyDuck

I like this from WCG. I also really hate duck's posting there. he is making a convoluted argument out of bujaber asking him to hammer, like he knows arcangel is going to flip town and fears the consequence of being scumread for hammering him.

[Toranaga]

bujaber, unreal seal
scioness, mathdino
wavemode

are my townreads up to post #460

POE awoo, mutant, WCG, uglyduck, mylo

I think mutant looks decently towny at times. mylo I have no idea but everyone townreads them.

WCG might as well just be a newbie who can't really post villagery.

which leaves awoo and uglyduck as my wolf team guess as per #460

and I wanna vote uglyduck.

[Toranaga]

Also, you are town so can we stop arguing please?

OK that was pretty bad

addendum to theory: if uglyduck flips scum bujaber is innocent child

I have the strong feeling this is scum talking about scum partner.

[Toranaga]

454: Thanks, I hate it
UNVOTE: VOTE: UglyDuck

I like this from WCG. I also really hate duck's posting there. he is making a convoluted argument out of bujaber asking him to hammer, like he knows arcangel is going to flip town and fears the consequence of being scumread for hammering him.

He did ask Dino for advice about this one (Dino wasn't active to give one). He said something to the lines of "I am a vote away from being hammered and AA9 has one vote less. Should I even the wagons

despite the fact I TR her?

"

that's interesting, but I find it suspicious he is asking mathdino for advice in the neighborhood instead of just posting his heart out in the thread. it feels like the sort of thing scum will do to pocket his neighbour. I can see myself coming up with it so I can appear genuine to mathdino.

[Toranaga]

I wasn't paying attention to 293 and 333
You know I don't consider "not following up" to be alignment indicative
But yeah those 2 are voteworthy alone

VOTE: Scioness

Give me a lurker lynch if this flips green tomorrow pls

boy do I hate this vote.

[Toranaga]

oh crap these awoo's posts in sequence

UNVOTE:

Still waiting for a reason not to lynch AA9

I feel like AA9 is not definitively scum and most likely will flip town, and what does that give us? makes invis/mutant look bad. which is not terrible since last time I checked I want to lynch mutant. and the reason I unvoted is because there was 2 votes from 2 slots I dont like putting aa at L-1. The whole situation is giving me *least charismatic player gets lynched* vibes, and the reason I say "still waiting for a reason not to lynch AA9" is that I'm talking directly to you, AA9, GIVE ME SOME REASON NOT TO LYNCH YOU if you're town.

Despite saying all of that I am not 100% against lynching the slot if it continues to tank and even a town flip gets us something. and also we have time in the day. And maybe I Would lynch uglyduck since that bad post.

also if I seem partner partner with AA9 and AA9 flips scum then 1-1 is a #worth trade LOL

OK lets go over the facts of the case 1 more time

Town: Math / Wingedcat / wave / bujabe / - power gap - / NSG / scion

... 13 people and I can only find 6 comfortable town wtf?? o shit forgot myself that makes 7 looking a bit better now

VOTE: uglyduck

nonsense galore. she unvotes arcangel in one post, then says she is "waiting for a reason not to lynch" arcangel in the next post, and then proceeds to towncase arcangel and vote uglyduck. this progression doesn't work now does it?

[Toranaga]

IDK I'm almost halfway through the thread and I'm really tired of reading this and I'm starting to think mathdino might be scum and that's not something I wanna think about today.

[Toranaga]

Awoo if you're townreading me you should be townreading UglyDuck by extension

I would rather have respect than free townreads

mathdino feels exactly like pocketed town hard defending scum because they're towny in the neighborhood.

[Toranaga]

Like you seem like the kind of person that lynches people that I say are town being like "math you can't possibly have good reason to think UglyDuck is town"
And then blames the mislynch on the lynchee instead of taking responsibility for your reads

If I'm right, this is gonna be a long game

If someone is in my top 3 town, people lynching them have no knowledge of my reads accuracy

the kind of player i am is realistic. i think you do have okay reasons to townread uglyduck, i just disagree with them. and even if i did agree with them, i still wouldn't consider them actionable since meta can be very easily manipulated, both purposefully when you know you're playing with people who have seen your scumgame before, and incidentally by getting better at the game of mafia and by random life factors. i would never lock someone away as do-not-lynch purely on the basis of meta

even if i were doing a meta-analysis of uglyduck, what i see is a player who is capable. as scum he knows how to make himself seem like the victim. he knows how to look involved in game strategy, and he knows how to pick apart people's arguments logically. anything i might feel like townreading him for in this game, he has faked in past scumgames. the trap i'd say he falls into (in his past scum games as well as in this game) is classic egocentrism, where pretty much every post he makes is either about himself or his own reads/observations or responding to other people's reads of him. in his town games he spends more time trying to understand other people's points, asking them to explain and elaborate on their own thoughts, on things that aren't about him.

but hey, i could be wrong. maybe he is not manipulating anything and you do indeed see things that i do not see in ugly's past games that indicate he is town. that wouldn't be anyone's fault but my own. but surely you understand my perspective. i've lynched dozens of scum who very good players have sworn to me were town. so forgive me if my skepticism of your certainty comes off as condescension.

in addition, you must also understand that whichever lynch you redirect people to from uglyduck could be, as you yourself said, hilariously wrong. besides that, with only 5 days left in day 1, if the uglyduck wagon were to dissolve at this point we could easily be looking at an 11th hour compromise lynch on whichever player just happens to have low game presence at that moment. at least with uglyduck we are lynching someone with significant player interaction we can analyze, and someone whom a large number of players genuinely scumread, who will thus likely be a liability in the late game (if he does happen to be town).

all of this, to summarily respond to your post as well as UglyDuck's question above, is why i strongly disagree with dissolving the uglyduck wagon at this point. he is, both in my subjective opinion as well as in terms of objective game strategy, the best lynch.

solid post wavemode.

wavemode very strong townread now and I think he is just right about uglyduck as well.

[Toranaga]

ah **** hes just to sweet i cant do it UNVOTE:
VOTE: AA9 lets be honest im torn between two towns idk who mafia is anymore

lolol

I'm hard vetoing this person from continuing to not get lynched.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: awoo

and ffs lynch uglyduck tomorrow.

[Toranaga]

Like she's scumreading scioness but doing fuckall to actually test that scumread

She's either incompetent at basic townplay this game or I was wrong earlier

oh god such over the top nonsense

why does mathdino have to start getting wolfy all of a sudden?

[Toranaga]

yeah I'm done reading

if this is still happening tomorrow I may find some time but will mostly not be home

[Toranaga]

I'm maniacal enough that I'm still trying to finish reading the game before I have to sleep fwiw

[Toranaga]

Sajj considering only 1 lurker joined nsg's wagon and dino who is pretty confident on his townread hasn't this seems like an overreaction.

Math is Math, even if he had doubt he wouldn't openly share them if he isn't sure enough. NSG is better at the game so obviously it is worth to lynch me instead of her.

This is a dead game, posting any content believable enough gives you twoncred. My wagon as of right now is two lurkers, NSG and Math and Awoo.
She ignored every in game factor that should possibly give her a pause, nobody was, at least openly, scumreading me before she's made the case. Only effort she put in was making her case look good. Things from the thread were cases of me not playing to her perception of my town play. Quote from other game was misrepped and taken out of context to suit the case.
If she is town then i think it had nothing to do with game solving but a lot with some gut feeling she had about me that needed justification. I don't think she should be trusted with her reads if she keeps playing like that.

All that said you will have to make a decision tomorrow. I don't think there is anything else to be said this day phase. Hammer me whenever you are ready.
VOTE: Scioness

I have never seen this genuine type of self voting coming from scum. scioness isn't fighting her lynch by appealing to emotion or anything. she is just done trying to defend herself, and is posting in a way that almost feels like twilight posting from her POV. the feelings here are what I expect from a villager being death tunneled the way she was.

I get the demotivation and helplessness if she is town. I also wouldn't condemn all self-votes. But doing it here at this time amd putting herself at L-1 is close to game throwing. Believe me I did it in a 3p lylo in my newbie game because I felt frustrated and tried a hail mary gambit. I have since learned my lesson. You don't self-vote when it more or less guarantees your lynch.

This is pretty much the same as hammering yourself as a townie. Because if town she can't possibly know that scum wouldn't login before she returns and hammer her. And sure a hammer would look shady but townies get trigger happy too when deadline is near.

I mean you literally threw your game, then. this isn't comparable. I think the barrage of accusations scioness had to endure could break anyone. having someone literally metadive you d1 and post all the stuff you did differently in the other game, and have tl;dr after tl;dr case being thrown in your direction, when half the thread is lurking and you're one of the ones trying, is pretty disheartening. I'm fine with the way scioness behaved here. she did not appeal to emotion or threw the game, she just happened to be in a certain emotional state.

[Toranaga]

I get the demotivation and helplessness if she is town. I also wouldn't condemn all self-votes. But doing it here at this time amd putting herself at L-1 is close to game throwing. Believe me I did it in a 3p lylo in my newbie game because I felt frustrated and tried a hail mary gambit. I have since learned my lesson. You don't self-vote when it more or less guarantees your lynch.

dude, how can you be so unaware of your surroundings
how is putting myself at l-1 on D1 two days before deadline game throwing? I have provided more than enough content for you all to talk about when I flip town.
what do you expect me to do? push me for some last minute lynch that i don't bellieve to save myself? i like to think i'm more game aware than that.

This is pretty much the same as hammering yourself as a townie. Because if town she can't possibly know that scum wouldn't login before she returns and hammer her. And sure a hammer would look shady but townies get trigger happy too when deadline is near.

What planet are you on? Do you think you can solve me v NSG without a lynch? Good luck with that because IF both of us are town then we are not dying any time soon. How do you imagine next day phase will look like? Half of the players awol and nsg still on me (i doubt she will back off of this since she didn't do it already).
Yesterday is a content, maybe not the best content but still. People have and will be forced into making stances. D2, after my flip they will also have to make a decision how to handle NSG. That's plenty of material to work on going forward.
Not confirming me today is a waste of a day phase.

I'm ready to lose the game to scioness if she is scum.

[Toranaga]

So, I've managed to catch up with the game after being away for a bit.

NSG's case on Sajj seems to be entirely focused around meta, but the latest posts after her self-vote are almost entirely Appeal to Emotion. Furthermore, she was previously posting 1-2 line posts that were disengaged and often didn't say much. Now she's burying people with walls of meta, which indicates cornered scum to me.

For all these facts, I declare intent to hammer.

that's a horrible post.

[Toranaga]

we need to lynch awoo.

[Toranaga]

Can you explain this one please sorry I missed it.

Fact: Mathdino is town reading Uglyduck.
Fact: Mathdino has accurate town reads.

Regardless of what Uglyduck flip, I don't think this would tell us anything about Math.
However, a Math town flip probably means Uglyduck is town.

So I'd be more comfortable lynching Math first before Uglyduck. That said, it's too early to lynch Math.

I don't believe this bs theory that Math is scum with Uglyduck due to how obvious the white knighting is. I don't think scum!Math would do that.

horrible post too

oh well. I've read +1k posts and I think my POE now looks like

mutantdevle, duck, mylo, awoo and, honestly, unreal seal again.

I'm fine with lavos as town for his posts after subbing in.

ok that's enough for me.

[Toranaga]

only when I have lost all motivation to play

do me a favour and flip red awoo

I'm trusting you can do taht

[Toranaga]

eh regretted that immediately.

I want to vote awoo - and will - but quickhammer is too potential.

UNVOTE: unvote

I need to read up. 4th of July week has had me behind.

you're a wolf.

also it's 2 days from end of day. we need to hammer.

[Toranaga]

I fucking hope you're scum awoo

I'll be fucking mad if you're not scum

[Toranaga]

scumteam is Lavos/UglyDuck btw

you think awoo is town? :/

[Toranaga]

uglyduck should die tomorrow regardless imo

[Toranaga]

oh well

hope you're wrong

[Toranaga]

UNVOTE: awoo

but pretty sure he was hammered

[Toranaga]

tho idk

awoo is only not scum if he was hammered

if he is not hammered he might know this and this is therefore theatre

it's the lynch either way

[Toranaga]

no that was L-1 yeah

ok

you're still the lynch awoo

[Toranaga]

VOTE: awoo

nice try

pretty confident you're scum now

[Toranaga]

VOTE: uglyduck

fuck mafiascum tbh

[Toranaga]

awoo feels pure and I'm hating myself for reading him that way

[Toranaga]

I have the feeling if we don't hit scum today, scum will take over the thread and run the narrative to get a bunch of town lynched and win, because there are too many low hanging fruit for town to recover

unless you guys start playing.

[Toranaga]

I bet thats a fake hammer too, you were probably already voting me.

I have unvoted you and then revoted you when noticed you were actually L-1ed anyway.

also I noticed an interesting contradiction with regards to your posting and who you're pushing...

Shit, I died. I guess being scum partners with 3 different people doesn't help my case any :S but I really don't know what you guys are going to get out of the upcoming town flip.
Like ok, scummy guy flipped town. Then what? I really want to lynch my "partners" right now instead of me.

I'll leave you with this. Special thanks to tornaga for adding some ambiguity to who dies tonight.


{tornaga, bujab}
{a50, scion, lavos}
{mylo}
--- power gap ----
{duck, wave} <-- the "seems town but idk how to feel about them but others say town" pile.
{scion}

(mutant, seal, myself )

here, duck "seems town" but you don't know how to feel about it. that quickly becomes:

*teleports behind you*
pssh... kill uglyduck tomorrow... kid
*flips green*
VOTE: awoo
"but for me... it was tuesday..."

now you suddenly want uglyduck killed the next gameday once you "flip green". .

I think we have 3 votes on duck? Thats a good number, lets kill it. He's only got his partner to fight a fast wagon if he's mafia and thats 1 person.

where is your mutant wolfread? where is your seal wolfread? how did uglyduck suddenly became the wagon of your choice? was it because people were willing to push there?

[Toranaga]

"seal is weird and I read weirdness as towny" right after you put yourself with him as scumreads, as well

there are so many open contradictions that are too weird to come from town

oh well

what do I do with you awoo.

[Toranaga]

VOTE: awoo

I shouldn't play here. how the fuck do I solve this game?

[Toranaga]

I either don't give a fuck or I look like a goddamn maniac every game here

fucking hell

[Toranaga]

the thing is

I'm tonereading you town

but everything you say is ???????, like every post contradicts some other posts

some reads seem to come from nowhere

I understand what you're saying, like your wolf game might be too formulaic for you to play like this

but IDK. it feels... you know, if you're scum I'm gonna feel like the biggest moron that ever walked the earth.

but ok. I'm believing your self meta cause I actually did meta dive you and you actually are pretty formulaic and correct posting as a wolf in the games I saw.

VOTE: uglyduck...

[Toranaga]

bujaber I'm sorry to say but if you're not townreading me after my gameday you can't really mafia, can you?

it's not exactly hard to parse me out this game.

[Toranaga]

I wanted to check the flip :/
What are you doing

What? I wrote walls but I didn't change my vote. I did not affect the wagons.

bujaber I'm sorry to say but if you're not townreading me after my gameday you can't really mafia, can you?

it's not exactly hard to parse me out this game.

Isn't that putting a limit on how good you think you can be as scum?

Take the compliment.

Also that just means lavos is scum. Your faith in him is fascinating.

Pedit - lavos: isn't that what duck is saying also? Why did you 'what' him?

I can be good scum, but I wouldn't pointlessly read half the thread and flip flop on players and put and remove L-1s and all of that as scum. it's not much about limitations to my scumgame (that I know I have anyway), but rather making such an effort just to appear minorly towny when I can take safer stances and ultimately not care who is lynched.

I'm villagerier than everyone combined this gameday.

and IDK how me = town equates to lavos = scum. this is a work of your brain only and I don't see how that's necessarily the case.

[Toranaga]

can we just lynch one of them? I'm a bit indifferent which one at this point.

[Toranaga]

yaeah bujaber is on uglyduck meaning uglyduck is L-1

[Toranaga]

there, was never a wagon on me?

and I mean yeah I do think it's a scumtell from awoo but at the same time I also thought that uglyduck's position makes 0 sense and I am very confused.

wait whats a scumtell from awoo? the self vote?

[Toranaga]

It was plural you, BuJaber. Wasn't really talking to you

scioness: ugly or awoo?

[Toranaga]

I already removed this game from my bookmarks and everything wtf is going on

honestly this is fake as fuck maybe

VOTE: awoo

p.edit yeah I just hammered awoo

glglglgl

[Toranaga]

leshrug

[Toranaga]

kill uglyduck tomorrow imo regardless of what it flips here

my poe is duck, lavos, mylo, mutant

I think lavos has been fine but other players are villagerier

mutant has many wolfy posts but overrall has been more villagery than the immediate POE of duck/awoo

alright

gl

[Toranaga]

tor why is seal town?

he cased duck I think? very early on in very genuine manner

[Toranaga]

hi

sorry I suck

sucks to suck

[Toranaga]

VOTE: Uglyduck

willing to go here, game feels easily PoEd

if this greens we lynch in {unreal, mutant} tomorrow, probably unreal. btw after playing some marathons not really confident in Mylo being town here anymore but we can get to that later.

doesn't feel like an easy game to me at all

[Toranaga]

I was thinking that but then I realized I had enough townreads that lynching any moderately scummy player is likely to flip scum and we can draw associatives from that. Like I don't think I'm going to lynch ever in {wave, tor, a50, sajj}? and even if I get lynched which I probably will at some point we have enough lynches to the point where we'll probably lynch scum eventually and we can draw associatives from flips. for example if we flip uglyduck and he greens Unreal looks more attractive as a lynch, but if he reds I don't think they're likely scum together, and we're more likely looking at someone like mutant for a buddy.

we share the same reads and still I suspect you. maybe I shouldn't.

I think mutant over unreal fwiw.

[Toranaga]

He's right. It's mostly gut. And that makes him smile because it lets him no I can't do anything against him.

The only thing of substance to this read aside from gut is that he was quick to townread me based on little. That tends to come from scum in my case because of my playstyle. It's so easy to town read me as scum because I either end up as lynch bait or I bleed town. If I bleed town then they were behind me all along and if I end up lynch bait then they can take credit in not persecuting me.

That, alone, is nothing. And I had this feeling before he stated such a read.

And of course, even this gut read is seeded with heavy doubt as usual for me. This is why I prefer more mechanical games.

this feels very pure

[Toranaga]

why is a50 alive

why is bujabber dead

why are replacements townreading me so strongly

why

VOTE: Scioness

This is the scummiest post I have read in more than a year! You yourself had BuJaber at the top of your TRs and in a game like this (no PRs) it's the towniest slot that's always gonna get whacked.

My vote is pivotted and cemented on Scioness. NSG is always RIGHT (and that's why she gets NK'd early so often)

agree that's very wolfy posting from scioness

[Toranaga]

no one posting anything...

should I hammer UD then?

[Toranaga]

UD, I'm a villager

I understand if you're town, that you'd be highly suspicious of me when my POE wolf team was town!awoo and you. if you're town, my play last gameday might appear agenda driven. but I'm a villager and I poured my soul into it last gameday so people would read me that way.

ask me anything. poke me until you villa read me. if you're town, maybe I can villa read you as well and we can find scum together. I don't want another mislynch.

can you quote your private thread here?

[Toranaga]

game still dead I see

I'm gonna roll with wavemode's last post being the most accurate way to read uglyduck. I don't trust A50's ability to tone read players and wave was very accurate in townreading awoo.

so let's end the gameday? I'm voting UD. if he is town we're screwed anyway cause he is nearly always a lynch.

[Toranaga]

vote: uglyduck

this is L-1 since A50 voted someone else.

[Toranaga]

UNVOTE: uglyduck

you fucking people need to be near lynched to post anything towny

[Toranaga]

playing on mafiascum is so annoying. you have no idea how bad trying to solve this is.

[Toranaga]

Tora???

sajj!!!

[Toranaga]

I mean not really

but he unvoted me so I townread that

I'm just specially silly when people start to complain that they're getting lynched

[Toranaga]

VOTE: uglyduck

let's move on

gg

[Toranaga]

Also, if it flips red I'll be somebody;s bitch for the rest of the game. Someone

on

the wagon, that is.

your bitch application is being reviewed

[Toranaga]

454: Thanks, I hate it
UNVOTE: VOTE: UglyDuck

That's EXACTLY what I've been looking for/expecting. Mainly, I wanted to know if wcg unvoted AA9 first or Dino did. Then I wanted to know her reasoning for it.

So, unvoting AA9 when she gets to L-2 (when you've been leading the wagon on her) is

always

alarming in my book. The question is whether it's scum jumping off a scum partner, or scum jumping off a town wagon that now looks like going through.

My answer is it's more likely the former, since wcg needed to simultaneously find a different vote target to justify it. Usually when scum jump off a town wagon they just unvote and say something along the lines of "I'm not too confident.." or "This wagon is building too fast.." or "I don't want to end the day just yet.." or "I don't trust X on the wagon..".. etc. etc.

So, in conclusion I'm calling Lavos and Toranaga as the scum pair here. Still not sure if there should be a 3rd, but obviously you all are confident HWS made a mistake in the OP, so I'll look for a 3rd scum if and only if we lynch these two and the game still doesn't end.

NOTE: I got what I wanted, so I won't be reading the rest of the main thread. I'll now check the neighborhoods for details.

See this, Tor?? My weak sauce does work more than you know. UD did elude me, but this one I had in my scope ever since I replaced in.

@Mylo: Still think killing the neighbors isn't sus af? I mean, I maybe crazy (there's no denying that IMHO), but WCG/Lavos was and obvious scum slot to me.

GG all.

P-edit: ROTFLMGO! Ausuka?????

lol well, being on the side of the argument that was town and was having to read an associative w/w read with him on it, it was hard to take it too seriously

I read math's confidence as someone who was being pocketed in the neighborhood. I've seen it a lot. when you told me he was asking mathdino what to do in the thread, it felt a lot like something scum would do to pocket.

I never doubted you were town after UD flipped, I thought it spewed you town even more.

[Toranaga]

congrats town

wavemode was excellent

glad to have helped

thanks mod for modding