OPEN 732 : PICK YOUR POWER X/Y (GAME OVER)

[Sando]

VOTE: VulkanLogician

Tautologies must die

[Sando]

People have been reading too much into my throwaway jokes recently. It's weird.

Holy shit, I can't believe you just said that!

[Sando]

More seriously, anyone confirm/deny if the PYP wiki history of games is definitive?

[Sando]

I remember someone mentioning that one game there was a scum team that picked all the same number to throw people off.

Yeah I heard the same, and it's not in the wiki list, hence the question.

[Sando]

I wish you weren't the same person who voted for enigma in RVS.

I'm leaning town for you but my paranoia says you're distancing.

Dat looks like a town CJ over thar.

Anyone got a link to that PYP where scum all picked the same number?

As one of the 3, I'm well aware scum did not pick all the same number in this game. Unless there's another PYP I'm missing, scum have only done the "2 of us pick the same and 1 different" gambit once before.

3 appears to be the optimal number for scum to pick, town pick 1,2 and 4 at a significantly higher rate than average, even amongst the top 7-8. 4 is actually the most town-picked number (I wish I'd done this work before draft), followed by 1, then 2. In the 132 townies in the completed wiki games, town chose (12 games):
1: 20
2: 16
3: 11
4: 25
5: 11
6: 10
7: 11

1 is picked by ~15% of townies and ~19.5% of scum, so by itself it's not a good indicator.

Given the likelihood of picking against a townie appears equal in 3/6/7, 3 seems optimal. Funnily enough 3 and 6 have duplicates on them.

Also funnily enough, 42 has only ever been picked once before, by scum

Having said all that, I'm happy to put the numbers out there for peoples knowledge, but I agree with others, speculation on draft picks at this stage is not going to help us short term. Keep it in mind for later days, but we could easily wifom ourselves to death here.

[Sando]

Sando has shown that he has looked into previous games

I literally opened them from the PYP wiki history part and copied down the picks and alignment of everyone. I haven't read any of the games themselves. I might go dig into the power picks that get chosen tomorrow.

I'm off to bed, but yeah your reads on what I would/wouldn't do as scum are spot on, so I'll read through the rest of your stuff there in the morning, seems worthwhile.

[Sando]

Enigma, I know nothing about, but BuJaber's stark insistence that they all chose different numbers actually, in my opinion, opens up a possibility that he could be on a scum team that suggested that. I need more time to read BuJaber, but, I do want to note that later on, if he ends up being scum, I would not count out Enigma or two of Ceejay/Sando/ofrhz being scum partners with him. (Again, you guys can add myself and Ausuka to the list to analyze)

So this is the only part of Brass's post that I think needs clarification:
I very much doubt CJ is partnered with ofrhz, and I know he's not partnered with me. CJ is a very blasé scum when it comes to using powers or plans etc, and basically peaces out of that part of the game, I can't see him going along with this plan and being part of the double up. He would happily let his partners do what they want, so he could be solo to the 3's or the 6's, but I doubt he'd be partnered with a double up.

@Sando - what is CJ?

Town it looks like to me

In post 9, Sando wrote:
VOTE: VulkanLogician

Tautologies must die


kinda surprised you didn't comment on the ruru-1 thing above?

I went looking to confirm the signup post had the "I'm gonna pick 1" thing, and it doesn't, it got edited, I wasn't sure if it was ok to post outside info.

[Sando]

i really want that scum PT to be opened up ....

I'm actually basing this off a newbie I played with him.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=76409

[Sando]

got it, my one and only game with him is jungle republic and all i can base my understanding of that assessment on is how he reacted to ap's plan in thread after the guilty

i'll check out that link at some point.

It's probably a better indicator yeah. Newbie with me the cop was basically a single word short of hard-claiming cop, CJs partner noticed it (as did pretty much everyone) and posted in scum pt during twilight of his lynch that CJ should kill the person. CJ was like "nah fuck it, ima kill this other guy", completely missing the cop thing entirely.

Basically, CJ strikes me as a great scum in game, but not one for following da plan, hence I think he wouldn't be part of a pair that picked the same number, but I think he wouldn't mind if his two partners paired up their numbers and left him solo.

[Sando]

90% scum wouldn't want to double up

94.5% to be exact.

[Sando]

90% scum wouldn't want to double up

94.5% to be exact.

wait scum have doubled up before?

Yep, once that I can see.

[Sando]

Random prediction time : 1 one of the people who looked up previous games is scum.

So you're saying you're making definitive reads on scum-tactics without having even looked at the previous PVP games?

[Sando]

Did that game end?

Yeah but mod is away with some personal issues I think and so it hasn't technically finished. Me and AP have access to the dead thread, CJ and AP have access to the wolf thread, and Skitter has nothing

[Sando]

Yeah, why a PL day 2?

My math was off. I thought day 2 was mylo -1 but it's day 3.

I think your math is off still, but to confirm, you're saying policy lynch them the last day where their vengeance won't tip that lynch into a lylo retrospectively?

[Sando]

sando, any hot takes on the game thus far?

Yes but I think they're gonna dig themselves deeper so ima not say the scum hot-take.

CJ looks townie AF.
AP I think we'll have a decent read on by EOD.
We're keeping Brass around for a while at least.
Skitter looks like town-skitter, but I haven't seen scum-skitter so...

The rest are lynchable, but there's 1-2 that I think are topping the pile, I'll elucidate on that later.

[Sando]

def interested in your hot scum take when you're ready to share

It's my GFs birthday today so I'm going to be VLA for a few days, but once back yeah I assume all the digging will probably be done by then.

[Sando]

- Don't cc fakeclaims in general, I think there are a lot of cases where we decide to lynch a claim regardless of whether it's true or not

I think I love you...

I'm back peeps! I'll post a bit more in the coming hours.

Can't say I love the wagon dynamics of Enigma, but then they're also pretty scummy...he wasn't my digger though, BuJaber was, I'll post why once I've showered and eaten etc

[Sando]

@ruru.@Oka: Can we like.. shut this conversation about claims off? If I was scum I would have loved you both for the amount of ideas you're giving me.

Ruru's 354 I've quote is all that needs to be said, don't instantly CC a claim.

[Sando]

I think we can safely assume that no two people with the same number are scum together.

So this was the first BuJaber post, and instantly creating some lovely WIFOM for everyone to digest.

I think we can safely assume that no two people with the same number are scum together.

let's not

Is this how you normally are?

Because your tone rubs me the wrong way. I feel dismissed and belittled.

VOTE: ofrhz

I'm gonna assume at this point that BuJ is pretty serious about his WIFOM creation.

I think Sando might be scum here. That comment saying brass is right about him comes off as a disarming tactic.

VOTE: Sando

@Sando - what is CJ?

Here my post to Brass is given as reason for me being scum. For context, my comment to Brass was that he was correct that I would not go along with a 3xscum on the same number but that I would have gone along with 2xscum picking the same number. Just to be clear, I'm indirectly disagreeing with BuJabers "scum didn't pick the same number", and get scumread for it.

Also asks me for a read on CJ that never gets followed up.

Random prediction time : 1 one of the people who looked up previous games is scum.

Oh look, a "random" prediction that just so happens to point at me and Brass.

See a townie can research and make assumptions based on past games but they would still be rooted in WIFOM. Will the current scum team follow the trends or won't they?

Scum researching tells them exactly how past scum did it and how successful they were and then they make the decision to go along with past success or go a different route but then in the game ghread they will likely try to subtly make us assume the opposite of what they actually did. Their arguments look better if they research first.

A townie doesn't care if scum is playing optimally or not. They just want to identify them. Scum would want to increase their chances.

Ok here we go with the digging. So this is saying that a townie doesn't care if scum are playing optimally or not, but BuJaber is flat out telling us that they are playing "optimally" and coordinating to get the best PRs. He's also accusing me of playing optimally like scum would and picking the most popular town-picked number... You can accuse me of creating WIFOM or you can accuse me of playing "optimally", not both.

If brass is town he's scum. I felt that he agreed with his meta analysis so that he wouldn't analyze him further.

This just shows that BuJaber isn't actually reading context. I agreed with Brass on what I'd do as SCUM, and I agreed that he should continue to consider me and another 4 picker as scum possibilities because it's within my meta. How on earth can BuJaber think I'm trying to get Brass off my back with this?

Over the course of this game, BuJaber has simply picked two people who agreed on a single point about one of them possibly being scum and contorted himself circles to make them scummy whilst throwing a boatload of WIFOM out there.

VOTE: BuJaber

[Sando]

But basically A and B suck for scum. They will likely bring a lot of suspicion on them. The person with the meta read would definitely pursue it at a minimum even if others ignore it.

Ignoring it is by far and away the safest play. You're literally attacking me for agreeing, how is that safe?

[Sando]

If you don't like WIFOM stop playing open games.

BuJaber casts snark, it was ineffective

But basically A and B suck for scum. They will likely bring a lot of suspicion on them. The person with the meta read would definitely pursue it at a minimum even if others ignore it.

Ignoring it is by far and away the safest play. You're literally attacking me for agreeing, how is that safe?

Sando casts WIFOM

[Sando]

[quote="In post 392, OkaPoka"][/quote]
This is just silly.

Enigma has been acting scummy - per your own 387 amongst other things
Enigma's wagon has formed in a scummy wagon - I'd agree with you there

One suggests he's scum, one suggests he's town, I can 100% guarantee we're wrong on one of those, and right on the other. I don't know why you consider the wagon one definitive.

[Sando]

svs is engima scum and enigma wagon is also scum

What changed between 392 and now?

[Sando]

392 = Enigman is town because the wagon is scummy AF
410, 412 and 415 you're saying that you hadn't considered that scum could be on a wagon on scum...

No new information has been revealed, and it's not like bussing is a particularly new concept.

[Sando]

my 412 should answer your question, no?

At a minimum you went from a very definitive with no room for movement to a "maybe" based on no new information.

[Sando]

and it's not like bussing is a particularly new concept.

[Sando]

I'm right about this. And you agreeing with me about it doesn't automatically make you scum. Incidentally option C is also a viable option for town because townies are honest and forthcoming. The difference between town and scum is that town don't have to worry about getting suspected too much, so options A and B are less problematic. (Though if a townie picks option A that means that either the guy talking about them is scum for faking the meta read or the guy is clueless about the townie's meta and needs to be corrected).

Yes I am but if you had picked option A or B you'd have even more people attacking you I suspect.

Just to reiterate for everyone what A, B and C are:

A) disagree and argue that it is not correct
B) ignore
C) agree

So firstly, you're not right about this, ignoring is by far and away the safest and best option for scum.

Secondly, what you're saying here is that because Brass referenced me if I (C) agree with him, you think I'm scum. If I (A) disagree (B) ignore him, I'm going to be seen as scummy...

So you're saying that I'm always going to be scumread by people no matter what I do, for something someone else said about me, before that person has even flipped.

Your argument is so ass-backwards that I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around how you've come to this conclusion. Alternatively, you're scum and scrambling to defend a terrible, terrible scumcase.

[Sando]

Let's say 3 games is a good enough sample to make me question my reality. So the next 3 games that someone analyzes your meta, ignore them.

You're making out that he scum/town read me based on meta. He said that:

I'm not scum with both other 4's
I could be scum with one other 4
I could be scum with the 3s or 6s
He also intimated I could be scum with no double-ups

None of that is saying I am scum, scummy, or anything along those lines, it's pure setup speculation.

@Sando - what is CJ?

Town it looks like to me

This is a meta read, note I'm explicitly calling him town. Yes, if he ignored me if I'd said scum then he'd be getting some questions. Ignoring something that is not a case and not talking alignment is not going to generate questions.

[Sando]

Yes but his setup spec was about you specifically and what you would do as scum.

He didn't apply it to all 3 people who picked 4.

I was the only person he felt confident giving a read on, but again, he did not say I was scummy or townie, he just said that I don't get a pass. He also references all double-ups/triple-ups.

[Sando]

Believe me I'd love to find out that I'm wrong about what is scummy or not.

Others are telling you exactly what I'm telling you, you don't want to listen to people and would rather double down on a bad argument.

i don't really think this is a good reason to scumread him and i feel like the reasoning is kinda weak and ignores context

[Sando]

But my long discussion with Sando actually became about a whole different thing now. It is about a much more general thing: whst is the safest reaction as scum to someone describing things you would do as scum, correctly. Sando thinks it's ignore. I think ignoring would be suicide. So I asked him to provide me evidrnce of ignoring working in his favor in the future.

That's just the part you've decided to engage with. You've also:
- Said that scum definitively is playing optimally whilst accusing me of doing research, research which shows 4 is the most commonly townpicked number
- Specifically said that based on a single persons post about me, no matter what my reaction, I'd be scummy. This is bad enough when it's based on a post that I make, but when it's someone else making a post it crosses into absurdity.

[Sando]

@Mod my fiancee and I just broke up, I'm going to be a mess for a few days, just replace me please.

Shit, sorry Brass, all the best.

[Sando]

If he were the first attacker I'd say his stubbornness would be ai, but considering his case on me is an omgus counter reaction I'm failing to see the scum motivation to do all this.

You're trying to tell the person that interacted with me about case I was about to bring on you and waited over a VLA to make, that it's simply OMGUS?

Shade shant work for you here scumbo!

[Sando]

The point wasn't clear in the quote. I was saying that in scenario A if scum disagree with someone's analysis of their scum meta snd then that someone linked a past game as evidence the scum would be caught and lynched.

There's zero risk of this for me, I haven't finished any games as scum since returning to the site (unless you count a 5min marathon game), and no-one is going to take seriously a scumgame from 10 years ago as part of a meta read.

[Sando]

Are you reading? That point is in your favor

I care not about your scumread on me, I care that you're trying to cast shade on me to discredit my case.

[Sando]

And you really are very comfortable with this group if you think you can avoid a lynch had you disagreed with brass amd he provided evidence to show that you are wrong.

Why would we ignore something huge like that? If it got down to brass bringing in past games he would successfully make it a 1v1 and if you ended up looking like a liar you would be lynched first.

He could not possible have provided evidence to show that I'm wrong, even if I had decided to "lie" (is it really lying? Whatever) and disagreed with him. It does not exist...this is my only account, you can have a look for yourself. Won't take you long, any completed game from this year in my history is me as town (other than a marathon game).

I could have done a, b or c, and no-one would have or should have batted an eyelid, and certainly no-one could have provided evidence to gainsay it. This is an absolutely terrible, atrocious line of accusation from you.

In your own words, whichever option I went with you'd have expected me to be scumread. Given that's based on me reacting to someone elses words, how can you not see that this is an absolutely terrible way to scumhunt?!?!?!

[Sando]

Lol ok when I said there's no records of me being scum, I didn't expect a 10 minute QL to finish my "current" scumgame, so there's now one for you to look at if you want.

How would you feel about oka/CJ if enigma flips scum, and if enigma flips town?

CJ is as townie as I've ever seen him, enigma flip won't change anything there for me one way or the other.

Oka I struggle to read, he's completely illogical, and I find that sort of person very hard to read. I've only seen him play as town against my scum, I'll have some thoughts EOD, but if say me and you decided to finish the Enigma wagon off right now, I would have nothing to contribute on Oka regarding the Enigma flip.

[Sando]

im pretty easy to read if you just assume im town which i am so its a good assumption

do the right thing

You're making some sense here though, which is different from when I've seen you as town, so I'm assuming scum here

[Sando]

I don't trust your "super-towniness" ceej... it's a bit uncharacteristic.

It's outside of his scum game and his town game.

a) Which way has he gone, more townie or more scummie?
b) Which is it closer to?

[Sando]

enigma if u dont find a viable lynch u become the viable lynch

Dis is bad, don't say this sort of stuff, it's poisoning the well. By saying this, you're preemptively excusing Enigma looking to lynch anyone but themselves, something scum do a lot more than town. You're also muddying the water of others looking to run a counter-wagon to Enigma.

[Sando]

Sorry, been called interstate today, I'll be back tonight ~15 hours or so.

[Sando]

I'm back! Too many flights!

So I get what skitter is saying about the Enigma wagon, not sure I agree, but the principle is sound. Not sure why she doesn't follow through with the analysis and look into the people involved or not involved in the wagon. Strikes me as a very long and roundabout way to say "Enigma is town" rather than actually scumhunting. See her points about scum being happy with gamestate...doesn't progress the gamestate.

[Sando]

Has anyone actually given a reason why brass is town? Or is it just y'all feel enigma/whoever is scummier?

He contributed well in a generally townie fashion. He's not a D1 lynch imo, but no, I'm not lock-towning him or anything. I tend to think Cardi's schtick comes from town much more often than scum, but I have no data to back that up, just a gut read on that situation.

[Sando]

wrt scum on the wagon i'm townreading ruru and to a certain extent cj, and ofrhz's vote made a lot of sense to me in that context, so if there were scum on it i think it's in {ausuka, sky}

what do you think about invisibility?

This is kinda what I was looking for. It felt like a lot of busy-work to come to an "enigma is town" conclusion and then not follow through with the implications of that. You're not a "not follow through" kinda gal.

Invisibility in my lynchpool fo sho. I think Enigma's vote just now says there's one scum in those two. I generally prefer Enigma over Invisibility though.

Skitter/AP/Cardi/CJ are firmly in my not-lynch today.
Enigma/Invis/Vulcan/BuJaber are my happy to lynch today, in no particular order.
Everyone else I need more convincing or less time on the clock to get a lynch out of me.

[Sando]

why is AP in your not-lynch today?

Meta

Ok sorry.

General jovial nature, while 277 is a pretty in-depth post that I don't think comes from scum (when combined with other non-serious posts). There's more to progressing game-state than just voting, and he's contributing imo. He's not in my town-pool, that's just CJ at this stage, but I think he's a terrible lynch today.

[Sando]

why the bolded?

i think your argument with bujaber is indicative of a difference in playstyles tbh; i think he legitimately found you agreeing with brass to be scummy which is why he kept on harping on about it; it kinda reminded me of when i get tunneled on something and won't drop it and just keep arguing it do death even

and wrt ap's jovial nature i'm honestly kinda reminded of jungle republic here where he did very little for most of day1 and didn't really push anyone; most of his posts that day were jokes or memes or just kinda being there

Because it's a self serving vote from Enigma.

If you think that you're not reading my argument. I'm saying BuJaber has manufactured a situation where literally no matter what I said, he'd find me scummy. As part of that he thinks me agreeing with Brass was scummy, which I think is wrong. What's blatantly scummy is the manufactured scenario.

Jovial nature + 277 is why I'm TRing him, it's a combo deal.

[Sando]

If a vig shot the number one draft pick for fake claiming PGO then that'd be really stupid. Honestly pretty likely that scum had gotten that pick if they felt safe enough to make that kill.

If Vig shot Ruru N1 they're not the greatest, so I'm gonna assume they didn't.

Just to note, a skygazer vanilla says they picked Jailer/Tracker and failed, and thus also knew 100% ruru was lying. Oka can be considered to have a 50% idea if they chose the same, below that I'd say no-one would assume.

So yes, I'd say if mafia end up not having the pgo slot then we can probably start looking pretty hard at Skygazer.

[Sando]

where did skygazer say this ?

No they didn't actually say it.

But if we get to the point that we know, that tells us (says to us) that Skygazer picked what Ruru picked (or didn't pick, I'm assuming that's not true) and therefore knew what Ruru was. Actually may have thought it was the tracker even, making them a top target.

[Sando]

Oh wait, skygazer isn't 100% scum if we have a town PGO, there's some options for them (most notably RB into it, but I won't give them other ideas), but it's still the most likely option imo.

I'd say town PGO/Vig says 80%+ that Sky is scum, 95%+ if Sky is also vanilla.

[Sando]

How exactly does a town PGO/vig say I'm scum if I'm not vanilla?

You're right, you gotta be vanilla, I'm running too many threads in my head.

Vanilla is not 100% scum on you though, probable, but not 100%.

Oh wait, I hadn't considered it, but Oka vanilla with you as scumbuddies is an out-there option, but meh, too deep down the rabbit hole for now, since at that point RBing into the kill is the more likely option.

[Sando]

Okay probs a good idea to stop the role spec for now

Killjoy

[Sando]

Oka:

1) You're already voting me...
2) You've recently demonstrated a complete inability to read me without sheeping someone else, what's special here?

[Sando]

but thanks for making a pointless post <3

Are you seriously saying this after double voting me and not answering my question?

My reads haven't markedly changed since I posted them yesterday, but then I haven't looked for any conf/deny links between Invis yet.

[Sando]

what question? you want me to say what's special here?

Yes, I've only seen you blindly sheep onto me, you're not doing that here, why?

[Sando]

sample size n=1

It's a sample size where you said I'm unreadable...

[Sando]

i think this post is just to cover his tracks

Literally the entirety of your case on someone that a few days ago was "unreadable"...yeah righto.

[Sando]

i made a case on you that said you were unreadable?

Donner Party...

[Sando]

ok those are different games?

Really?

[Sando]

-Can someone help me understand what ruru's strategy was? I don't get the town fakeclaim. A townie who knows she's lying will counterclaim and ruru likely gets lynched. And scum who know she's lying will NK her. And I think that's what happened. It's the most likely explanation in my mind.

It's a fairly painless fakeclaim and she did it with no pressure, so a PGO/Vig would feel no real need to counter/kill. It also makes scum hesitant to kill her, unless they somehow know she's lying, either by being it or happening to be Sky and picking jailer themselves.

[Sando]

(just crossposting this over all of my games to say i'm going to spain for two weeks and won't have access to PC. i'm not on much nowadays anyway so my activity shouldn't, like, dramatically decrease, but i'll be less able to read through the game, make quotes, etc.)

Enjoy, Spain is awesome.

[Sando]

-Can someone help me understand what ruru's strategy was? I don't get the town fakeclaim. A townie who knows she's lying will counterclaim and ruru likely gets lynched. And scum who know she's lying will NK her. And I think that's what happened. It's the most likely explanation in my mind.
So I feel like I'm missing something obvious or it's a pointless gambit??

I don't think I like Ruru's strategy, which (as far as I can see) hinged on her fakeclaim being believed. That is problematic for the reasons you listed. In addition, Ruru selected a very townie role, that was apt to be chosen by those halfway down the draft or lower, thus condemning all of them to vanilla-ness. PGO would have actually been a good pick, or even vig... if anything just to prevent scum from getting the role. To pick a role so useful to a townie who

wasn't

going to be a prime n1 target was a bad move IMO.

Congrats, you have different views of how to play town PRs, well done. Ruru is dead, their alignment is known, let's move on. Contribute to how we can move the gamestate forward rather than speculating about why a town player did a thing...they did, deal with it.

[Sando]

Not really trying to dwell. BuJaber asked if there was any other strategy that might have been at work. The short answer would have been "no."

Sorry, I'm more annoyed at BuJaber (and SRing him for it) for this insistence on discussion without actually digging into the implications of something. I really don't care if Ruru fakeclaiming was good or bad, being dead gave us information that is far more valuable than "gee was that a good play mate".

[Sando]

You may have these people fooled but your stubborness doesn't come from being town. You are either just a horrible individual or you're scum. One or the other. This isn't natural townie-offensiveness. You're worn your biased glasses and everything I do looks scummy to me.

Mate...I explained why Ruru would do what they did and why it was, in my view, a reasonable play. You chose to ignore/disagree and continue down the path that doesn't help us actually solve this game. I wasn't being a dick when I explained why I thought it reasonable for Ruru to do what they did, but it's also a discussion for post-game, not in-game.

[Sando]

don't drink and vc, kids

You posted it at 8am your time...

[Sando]

sando gimme some readz

CJ be town yo.
AP likely town.
Skitter maybe town
Aus maybe town
Rest are below null
Vulcan looks scummiest atm
If someone's played with BuJaber I'd be interested in the rant against me as a tell, what I said did not merit that response, I dunno if that's BuJaber or if a deliberate over-reaction though.
Skygazer is my "please solve this person for me PRs, you're my only hope" pick.

[Sando]

Did anyone vig ruru last night? Please answer honestly; I likely won't live into tomorrow given my role in the draft so I need to figure this out today.

I think this is a good claim for vig who shot ruru tbh.

[Sando]

Trust me, it's not

No I'm agreeing with you that a vig that shot ruru last night should claim it.

[Sando]

Hey guys, I'm VLA for ~48 hours, gotta dash to NZ for work

[Sando]

Hey guys, I'm VLA for ~48 hours, gotta dash to NZ for work

TAKE ME WITH YOU......
noted.

To Auckland? Not exactly exciting

[Sando]

Hey guys, I'm back, but been awake today for a very long time and flying etc. I'll post more in the morning.

[Sando]

So just to be clear, Sky is claiming they've neighboured Ausuka, and from that they've POEd downwards? Sky is saying Aus has a power but not what that power is?

95% that rules out Sky as scum imo, which also says vig/pgo is within scummies or roleblocker, or both. I don't see scumsters that got lynched yesterday risking another death N1 shooting at a claimed PGO unless they somehow knew it was safe.

I generally TR Ausuka, but I don't really see how this claim stuff impacts their alignment either way in isolation.

If you're townie and know you got RBd last night somehow, then you know vig/pgo is in the scummies imo.

Oka and Vulcan now have a pretty good idea of what Invisibility tried to pick (more what he can't have tried to pick), that will also start telling us what other scummies tried to pick. As much as scum might WIFOM by picking the same number, I see no reason for them to ever double-up a power pick.

[Sando]

Ausuka picked vig/pgo and rolled vanilla so we know that a vig/pgo has to be above her in the draft and that a vig/pgo is likely scum due to the ruru kill

Oh cheers, missed that in my scans.

So we can say our list for one scum must be: Oka/Vulkan/AP/Skitter/Aus, and we're taking Ausuka out of that list for general towniness?

[Sando]

Ausuka picked vig/pgo and rolled vanilla so we know that a vig/pgo has to be above her in the draft and that a vig/pgo is likely scum due to the ruru kill

I don't think Oka is vig/pgo, my understanding of his playstyle is he'd tunnel the fuck out of ruru for the fakeclaim and shoot him overnight.

[Sando]

Ausuka picked vig/pgo and rolled vanilla so we know that a vig/pgo has to be above her in the draft and that a vig/pgo is likely scum due to the ruru kill

I don't think Oka is vig/pgo, my understanding of his playstyle is he'd tunnel the fuck out of ruru for the fakeclaim and shoot him overnight.

Wait, that only makes sense if Oka is town, scum Oka could just shut up, that's silly from me. Oka isn't town-vig, which is pretty damn obvious

[Sando]

@ofrhz, so do you think AP hammered his scumbuddy on accident or was it part of a ploy? explain

Did he actually claim the hammer was accidental? He claimed he thought CJs vote was actually Invis self-voting, but I got the impression he knew he was hammering.

[Sando]

he could always be lying about that tho he didn't say that beforehand, its a matter of trust i guess i dk

Yeah but he's specifically said that he knew he was hammering.

Sure, he could be lying about misreading the L-1 vote, but it's established by him that he knew he was hammering.

[Sando]

Hmmm, my 3 favourite wagons are all going at the same time. I think, surprisingly, I'm gonna jump on the AP wagon. I felt D1 was pretty town from AP meta-wise, but not so much with the D2. The posts are markedly less content driven and they're also skirting the edge of misinformation with the PGO/Vig hypothesising.

VOTE: AP

Skitter is outside her town-play, but I don't know whether to put that down to IRL issues or scum. I very much doubt Skitter would ever use IRL as an excuse for in-game advantage in being read, so I think I'm happy for her to carry that question mark for a while and judge later.

Vulkan has been a target of mine for a while but whilst I hate it, I'm yet to see a scummer ever actually ask for the amount of attention Vulkan has been asking for.

[Sando]

UNVOTE: AP

[Sando]

Ok honestly think that's a lie at this stage, but let's talk this out.

Doc shares with RB, one of the strongest scum powers, and one we know Invis didn't take. No protecting ruru is perfectly understandable for town, so the claim of protecting Sky is reasonable.

A fake-claim here from AP would mean scum have Doc/RB, they're not going to throw someone away to out that slot imo.

So far we've had JK/Tracker and Neighbour/Fruit picked pre-Invis, neither of those are scum-targets for acquisition imo, even to prevent town from having them. This means either Oka/Vulcan have more scum-favoured powers (not saying they're scum for it, just that the powers they picked have to be good for scum or super OP for town) than Roleblocker/Doc, or scum!AP colluded with Invis to let RB drop to him. Or AP is scum with Oka/Vulcan and they have the power etc.

Basically, I think AP is lying due to the unlikeliness of Doc dropping that low and past a scummer to another townie.

[Sando]

wanna just do a role call bottom up with these lads?

I think bottom up claim is bad for town, I can explain this more in depth, but just want to put out there that while it looks tempting, I think in this circumstance it may hurt town.

[Sando]

For reference/discussion, I'd say the best power for scum is RB/Doc, RB is super powerful here and it denies doc to town simultaneously.

Cop is super important for them to deny to town, can see them taking that.

Role-cop is also very powerful for the scummers.

I think scummers also have the Vig slot since it hasn't been CC'd yet, but I think town-Vig says 100% that one of Sky/AP is scum, almost certainly AP.

[Sando]

The thing is Ausuka and I thought someone else was likely doctor for reasons so I'm waiting to see if there's a cc

Oh, cool, yeah I think a CC is in order if available.

As I said though, doubt scummers fakeclaim to out the doc of all choices.

[Sando]

i mean we have the people who theoretically be the pgo/vig slot claim from bottom up so we can isolate who has what

we go bottom up because if someone claims vt, we ask for the submitted role and then we can verify by other claims

only problem is scum knows some roles already in the top for vt fakeclaims

Oh wait, Aus has claimed they picked Vig/PGO right? I was concerned we'd get to top slots and have no-one having claimed it. Yeah bottom up not bad if we decide to mass-claim, my bad.

[Sando]

ap still might be scum because thats the rb slot

but

there is one other scum in here that we have to find

VOTE: skitter30

If AP could be scum, you still think there is a scum above Ausuka? I.e. in Skitter or vulcan?

AP being scum would mean AP is most likely RB and scum could have safely killed ruru through PGO without caring about the fakeclaim aspect of that. That means Vig doesn't necessarily have to be scum. Given that Vig hasn't claimed and no-one seems to disagree with my Town-Vig = AP-scum theory, I think vig is most likely scum, and in Aus/Skitter/Vulcan.

[Sando]

Aus/Skitter/Vulcan.

And Oka, forgot that one.

[Sando]

Uggh this is making me dislike his claim, if he is town reading you and nulling Sky (just before end of D1 mind you), why did he not target you instead (as #3 draft, and likely to also have a TPR)? All his previous posts have not seemed to suggest he thinks Sky is prob town, yet he protects her?

If AP is scum to Sky's town then he's RB and presumably they'd either:
a) Have scum-vig and know they could kill ruru safely, so they'd RB someone else, presumably #2 on the TPR list
b) Not have scum-vig and thus not know ruru wasn't PGO, thus RB ruru and kill him.

Given no town-vig claim, I'm guessing not (b), but we know Sky didn't get blocked...so who did AP RB then?

[Sando]

claiming you were rb'd is risky because ruru could have rb'd

I'm not asking for someone to claim being RB'd, I'm pointing out a problem with the theory that AP is RB and scum also have the vig.

[Sando]

*looks at draft position*

Lols why bother

You didn't fail to get doc/RB though correct?

[Sando]

cj is town

100%

[Sando]

Are you sure it’s a good idea to put TPRs if there is potentially no town doc?

He's not asking for a full claim, he's asking them to counter-claim the doc if applicable.

[Sando]

Quack isn’t he saying skitter Vulcan and him claim if no town doc CC?

I believe so yeah, in which case, yeah decent conversation to have. I think it's fine, assuming AP is RBscum, then his partner is most likely Vigscum, so basically useless since they can only submit one action per night which is already a kill.

[Sando]

i think this means that pgo comes before anything else and that a rb/jk would have gotten pgo'd if they targeted them. ie rb'ing a pgo wouldn't have turned off the pgo but would have just killed the rb if they targeted an active pgo, so if they thought she was a pgo i don't think this was a viable option for them if they had a rb

Oh interesting, I hadn't thought of that.

@Duckling, are you able to confirm for us that if an RB targets a PGO the RB dies? Also what happens if the doc protects someone who targets the PGO?

[Sando]

Thanks Duckling.

Despite the doc idea, I think that's unlikely for scum to do, or more importantly, unlikely for them to have picked that way to enable it.

[Sando]

Agreed that we should go for the mass claim, we should figure out how to do so logistically.

Happy with mass-claim, haven't thought through claim process very much at all.

Also, we mass-claim without results, claim results post-claims yeah?

[Sando]

2. If we decide not to lynch him, read/vote/pressure/rationalise and scum hunt the good old way.

I mean there's still another scum after AP even if he's scum, so we can still hunt.

[Sando]

Kinda agree with Cardi tbh, (and sort of slapping myself for not thinking it) yeah let AP live since scum has to sort him out if he really is the doc.

Leaving him alive without sorting seems...bad. Scum leaving him alive keeps up out of the loop, they still want to kill him if we massclaim, they only have 2 kills regardless, and we're gonna narrow the Vig down significantly.

[Sando]

Before someone like Oka tells me to claim, I think this is a terrible idea. I am either essentially a VT (1-shot watcher) or still have PR powers (cop). This just adds a bit of extra fun to the last remaining scum to figure out if they want to target me tonight or not and essentially gives other TPRs a slightly better chance of surviving.

If you're claiming a 100% knowledge of AP lying then yeah, happy for you not to claim, same outcome tomorrow, if AP flips town you die.

[Sando]

Before someone like Oka tells me to claim, I think this is a terrible idea. I am either essentially a VT (1-shot watcher) or still have PR powers (cop). This just adds a bit of extra fun to the last remaining scum to figure out if they want to target me tonight or not and essentially gives other TPRs a slightly better chance of surviving.

If you're claiming a 100% knowledge of AP lying then yeah, happy for you not to claim, same outcome tomorrow, if AP flips town you die.

BTW Enigma if you agree with this I'll happily vote AP now.

[Sando]

I'm free now, so I'll read up on what's happened so far.

AP claimed Doc that protected Sky, Enigma is claiming in 1262 that they 100% know AP is lying about that (but not which part), so we're gonna lynch AP now and give you a chance to re-read overnight.

[Sando]

VOTE: AP

Not sure I agree with tomorrow's progression.

[Sando]

Not sure I agree with tomorrow's progression.

Let's see what role he flips as well. I made a few assumptions along the way

Pretty safe assumption is scum have vig/RB, so the other one is out there, hopefully vig.

[Sando]

i think that we should massclaim now.

Yep, I think bottom up is best, claim roles with no results though yet.

[Sando]

Also I think vanillas should not claim what they (tried to) pick until after the claims.

[Sando]

CJ has already claimed yesterday, not sure if ohfrz has, but meh, we're the same number so no need to delay for that. I'm vanilla.

[Sando]

Oh FYI pretty much 100% that last scum is RBer, and since there was a kill last night they didn't RB. So you didn't get RBd PRs, although you could have been jailed.

[Sando]

Uh @Sando JK is already dead...

Universal backup might be around.

[Sando]

granted, Oka was still a really obvious choice for a NK considering their placement in the draft

Plus you're confirmed non-investigative and scum would be pretty desperate right about now.

[Sando]

last scum is probably here

Cardi B
ceejayvinoya

You think RB dropped to CJ?

[Sando]

there's possibly still a doctor considering enigma didn't die after the cop wifom

Wait you think AP fake-claims Doc with a town-doc on the board? I was thinking AP just claimed whatever their partner is.

[Sando]

it's possible nobody went for doc/RB slot. no town went for it in the last pyp xy run.

No way for scum to know that though. That said, AP can't claim PGO/Vig given we'd concluded that was scumslot, maybe he got desperate and went for least likely picked.

[Sando]

Pedit: possible he was drawing out a CC riiight?

Yeah, but a) that didn't happen, and b) why the doc? Investigatives out there.

[Sando]

There could be no doc or RB though? And docs could make a follow the investigative game break.

There could be, but the real question is: If the last scum has another PR that isn't RB/Doc, would AP have gambited like that?

[Sando]

I suppose it depends on whether you believe it's more important to down up or in order of most likely scum to least.

Main thing is not claiming what you failed to pick, if you failed (well if your slot failed). PS, before we do it, do you know that info as a sub?

[Sando]

you think ap claimed his partner's role? why would he do that tho? i feel like he was trying to force a cc; given no ccs it's possible that it just didn't get picked.

Well he had to fake-claim, we were 99% sure Vig/PGO slot was scum so he couldn't claim that. He had the option of digging for PRs with the fakeclaim or claiming his partners role.

If he's digging for partners, why the doc? Why not something more powerful for town, the cop or something?

[Sando]

If he's digging for partners

Digging for PRs*

[Sando]

what do you think scum were doing n1? vizzy was dead so it was ap + partner. actually now that i think about it scum!pgo!ap basically always activates that night after that sketchy hammer imo so the partner prob did the kill n1 and we wouldn't have seen a rb anyways

Depending on Enigma and how they got their guilty on AP, we might know for sure that AP didn't activate PGO, thus we can assume he sent the kill in.

[Sando]

Why is vulcan acting so scummy

Asked and answered!

GG town sucks

Is that a full claim list done?

I had some thoughts on order of the failed picks, but I need coffee first, and I'm not entirely sure still.

[Sando]

I have designated myself the organizer of claims!

ruru

- Jailkeeper (so no tracker)

Sky

- Neighbourizer (so no fruit vendor)

Oka

- Vengeful (so no N3 vig)

Vulcan

- VT (attempted ???)

Invis

- VT (attempted ???)

AP

- PGO (so no 1-shot vig)

skitter

- VT

Ausuka

- VT (attempted 1-shot vig)

Cardi

- VT

Enigma

- cop/1-shot watcher?

music

- VT (attempted ???)

Sando

- VT (attempted ???)

CJ

- VT (attempted vengeful)

ofrhz

- VT (attempted 1-shot vig)

I think this is right. I don't think it matters the order we claim what we tried to get, scum are just going to claim something in the top 3 anyway.

[Sando]

If someone attempted to nab doctor though and didn't... We can lynch from VTs down

Yeah that's true, just don't see the need to wait until that happens to start the claims, if it happens, great, if not, we can still get on with it.

I'm off to gym, I'll post my pick in a few hours.

[Sando]

I tried to pick Vengeful.

[Sando]

I think I want to vote CJ. I don't think there is any way to definitively find scum based on the claims?

It's in the vanillas almost certainly, and we're waiting to see if someone claims they picked and failed to get doc so we know it's from them upwards in the vanillas.

[Sando]

ruru - Jailkeeper (so no tracker)
Sky - Neighbourizer (so no fruit vendor)
Oka - Vengeful (so no N3 vig)
Vulcan - VT (attempted ???)
Invis - VT (attempted ???)
AP - PGO (so no 1-shot vig)
skitter - VT
Ausuka - VT (attempted 1-shot vig)
Cardi - VT
Enigma - cop/1-shot watcher?
music - VT (attempted ???)
Sando - VT (attempted ???)
CJ - VT (attempted vengeful)
ofrhz - VT (attempted 1-shot vig)

We know Invis tried and failed to get JK/Venge/Neighbouriser, the other powers they could have gone for are Tracker/N3 Vig/Fruit Vendor in that order. We know AP took PGO. All of those are fairly weak powers in the scheme of things, meaning my best guess would be that the 3rd is nearby to AP/Invis and picked something more powerful. I'd put my money on Vulcan and Skitter mechanically.

[Sando]

^ that would mean that Vulcan and skitter can both be town

Why? I mean yeah they could be (obviously one is at least), but what does Invis picking JK (not a bad guess) impact on them at all?

The know quantity is that scum wouldn't pick the same power as each other, it's unverifiable for us so they can't even create wifom with it.

Invis being Vanilla means he picked something someone else before him did, that's JK/Neighbour/Venge or their associated doubles. If Vulcan is scum then we know Invis and Vulcan didn't pick the same power, leaving Invis still as one of those three. If Vulcan is town, he's telling the truth about being VT, leaving Invis still as one of those three.

Invis 100% picked on of the three, or didn't put in an option, or one of those three is lying scum (2 are dead so unlikely).

That means our scums picked:
JK/Neighbour/Venge and,
PGO

Our third scum did not pick PGO and did not pick the one of the three that Invis did. Either they picked one of the three that Invis didn't pick or they picked up a power like RB that they're now pretending they don't have. Given the relative powers of the powers, I find it unlikely that they were desperate to take PGO over something like Roleblocker or even cop/redirector to deny town. That tells me that mechanically the most likely scenario is that they ended up as a group of three in the list, because at that point it doesn't matter what powers they choose within that block, they can't block themselves from powers accidentally.

Invis and AP were 5 and 6, so 4 and 7 should be our highest targets, that's Vulcan and Skitter.

[Sando]

Uhhh. Why did you wait to claim here wtf???? It literally takes seconds to claim your pick. It must have taken longer to write the bottom line than to actually claim.

And why did you choose Vengeful????

In case someone wanted to pre-empt me with a better plan or point out any flaws I hadn't seen.

I was low, I suck at using PRs, figured the top townies would pick town powers, not...what they did pick.

[Sando]

But why vengeful over n3 vig??? Can you link me to a town game where you got lynched?

I suck at PR, you want me to take a killing role?!

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76232

Skitter literally lynched me in a TvT in this one.

[Sando]

It's vig... Can't you just kill the player seen as the most scummy by everyone and move on with your day?

And like is that the only example? When I've played with you before you seemed difficult to mislynch and it seems like Vengeful isn't a role you're so likely to choose as town. Although I think Invis went for vengeful so maybe I'm overthinking this? idk

It's far easier to see into motivation on getting mislynched than to correctly read scum at an exact point in time. Not to mention, it's powerful end-game to control lylo/mylo, and it's VERY useful to know if someone has taken it.

Yep, only example since my extra long hiatus. I regularly get pushed to the brink, and Skitter had literally just mislynched me, and Oka has shown that he can't really read me and will happily follow any train on me that exists (my last scumgame), I'm not really one to trust town not to lynch me.

[Sando]

I think trying to scum hunt through draft and setup is gunna be difficult. I mean scum can easily claim VT and choose a safe failed pick. Can we just find the last scum through their scummy play/intentions instead?

I still feel CJ as potential last scum due to interactions on the vulcan cw yesterday - and feel there is likely to be scum on my wagon D1, with CJ being the logical choice from PoE.

cj is town

100%

Can someone help me understand this part?

Yeah but we did it the old fashioned way with AP and I wanna kill a scum with mechanics spec, *huff*

I'm not against giving CJ another look, his early game play, D1 especially, was particularly within his town-range though. Honestly though he's much harder to read when his scummies are getting killed, he's a much easier read based on his interactions with town. Given we're talking an interaction with who I'd probably put in my top ~2 for scummiest, not sure that "interaction with Vulcan" is going to get far with me.

I also think CW spec is never particularly effective.

[Sando]

I think Vulcan is a muchos better lynch than CJ at this point.

[Sando]

I think we've still got this, a {Vulcan, Cardi} lynch pool is most likely scum. And now we know scum doesn't have a roleblocker either.

I'm sticking with Vulcan/Skitter personally, although not being on yesterdays lynch helps Skitter, but overlap!

Why do we know that?

Who'd you buddy up with Sky?

[Sando]

I thought the doc/roleblocker was the same slot? Can there be both a roleblocker and a doctor?

Herp derp, you're right, I've been out of this game too long.

[Sando]

but like i said i'm now getting the vibe that she wants to be lynched so maybe she just gave up trying? idk

Where are you getting this vibe from?

[Sando]

I'm stuck on Vulcan, it makes a lot of sense from a reads perspective, and it makes a lot of sense mechanically.

VOTE: Vulcan

[Sando]

It might be best to weed me out... just as I recommended with ceej.

Yeah exactly though, CJ was a poor weed out. You had someone generally viewed as town (me) TRing CJ fairly hard, and decided that lynching before they returned was a good idea, and then you got NOTHING from it.

It was a terrible lynch that you helped orchestrate.

[Sando]

Lul so Vulcan never touched the scum wagons and pushed the CJ town-wagon?

[Sando]

Conftown slot still doin work damn it's like when theres another 2 inches left

I love you Cardi

[Sando]

Go ahead and hammer, somebody. I think the best thing for the gamestate right now is for town to wake up.

(At this point, people are operating too heavily on assumptions.)

So, hammer, get all the info the night cycle provides, and start the next day cycle fresh.

Also, I think there is scum on my wagon.... peace....

i don't think this comes from scum

Town literally wakes up and posts in-depth discussion...Vulcan replies with "hopefully my lynch prompts town to wake up".

Wake up to what?

[Sando]

Hey guys, sorry, just checking in, I probably won't be able to contribute for ~48 hours, really busy weekend coming up I'm sorry.

[Sando]

Okay just ISO's Sando and yeah I'm 100% fine him getting lynched. Very little things there reminded me of town!Sando, and him calling AP very likely town and flipping is not a good look at all lol.

Ofhrz is next

What town!Sando are you not being reminded of?

Hmmm, my 3 favourite wagons are all going at the same time. I think, surprisingly, I'm gonna jump on the AP wagon. I felt D1 was pretty town from AP meta-wise, but not so much with the D2. The posts are markedly less content driven and they're also skirting the edge of misinformation with the PGO/Vig hypothesising.

VOTE: AP

So calling someone likely town D1 but then after a poor D2 calling him scum and pushing him to claim point then pointedly not believing the claim is "not a good look"?

Ofrhz - Yeah that game is also what I meant with "Scum CJ is easier to pick with town dying". CJ's L-1 on my partner that game should have been the determinator of his alignment, hence I went hard with the town-read. He did the same here on scum I think? Also town here. I've also played with CJ in every open game since being back and even a newbie I played, I'm getting pretty good at reading him.

[Sando]

@sando: can you talk to me about how your reads been this game? Like how did all the flips make u feel

Invis I was fairly ok with dying but certainly wasn't super confident of the flip.
Ruru was pretty town so that wasn't surprising, surprised (read: it gave us lots of info) that he died though
AP I wanted alive D1, but D2 play was pretty big variance, and the claim didn't hold up muster even before it was CC'd. Obviously by end of day I was sure what we were getting, but I was beyond confident within a few posts of the claim.
Oka flipping town I wasn't all that surprised, nor at his death given his position. Personally I'd have left him alive as scum, WIFOM the hell out of the top spot being left over and Oka struggles to look townie, and Enigma was a top target.
CJ flipping town was obvious. I was prepared to listen to others after his D2 play, but I never personally thought he was scum, just not as obv-town anymore as I'd placed him D1.
Enigma dying was only weird in not being the night before.
Vulcan flipping town it was that gut sigh of "oh ffs", but he was scummy AF, needed to die, and I was also still annoyed at CJs lynch the day before.
Sky dying was pretty obvious, kill the only conf!town.

[Sando]

Wait, why didn't Enigma die N2? The CC wasn't an actual CC, it was a claim to know 100% that AP wasn't the doc.

Cop and Role-cop are the two powers that would also know this. Scum could probably deduce from play (I haven't checked this but I'm assuming) that Enigma wasn't cop, since guilties get a very distinct play against them I think. But Role-cop? You'd DEFINITELY kill a potential role-cop.

Leaving Enigma alive says they probably thought it was the real doc. That says the DIDN'T think Enigma was role-cop or cop, why?

My guess they have it. They can't have thought Oka was either since townie up that high hasn't claimed it, so if they picked it they got it...

[Sando]

I dont see why a rolecop would needa get shot.

Yall got any implications for this?

So cop is most dangerous, then role-cop, then doc, I think those are the only possibles for knowing AP was lying?

Why wouldn't you see an investigative as more dangerous? Especially going into D3 when we were obviously going to full-claim.

Implications, dunno, I'd need to look at the claims again, but I don't think we ever found someone who claimed to choose any of those roles from memory.

[Sando]

Invis I was fairly ok with dying but certainly wasn't super confident of the flip.

I dont suppose yall were like, "oh shit we got a scumflip, we're prolly gonna win" or anything?

I was surprised at them being vanilla, but no I didn't think that until after AP. I never discount towns ability to screw up a good thing...see day 3 for example.

[Sando]

What role is rolecop gonna find? Like that only matters if the last scum is exactly cop or watcher and watcher probably woulda just claimed

Well going into D3 we were going to mass-claim pretty obviously, role-cop makes it a much bigger risk to fakeclaim that.

How do u feel about bussing?

I don't tend to do it, Ohfrz referenced my last scum-game where I didn't bus, but it was also the type of game that you DEFINITELY shouldn't bus. Take it as you will.

I can provide some meta on why I'm town if you want, I tend to avoid it though, self-town meta isn't exactly useful. Also you'd have to take my word on a bunch of it, my only scum-game the mod left the site before the game officially ended so no-one could see scumchat where I actually discuss my thinking vs how I'm acting in game.

[Sando]

this is kinda townie from mylo imo tho

have you played with sando before?

This is what's confusing me, afaik only completed a game I replaced out of (nothing to do with Mylo) as town.

i'm kinda interested in why *oka* was the kill that night if they weren't killing enigma

n1 - ruru; widely townread + scum knew she was fake-claiming; much discussion over this
n2 - oka
n3 - enigma; known to be a pr of some sort that was like never partners with ap
n4 - conftown!sky; pretty obvious kill

oka's kinda the odd one out and i'm not sure why they waited a night to kill enigma

he was kinda scumreading ausuka but i'm pretty sure ausuka is town so i don't think he was killed for his scumreads unless they were like trying to frame her or something; also looking at how he jumped on the ap wagon i don't know if he could have been pushed as a viable ap partner

the obvious answer is that he had a high draft-pick so maybe they just thought he was a decently strong tpr? i don't think he was super widely townread at that point iirc

so you think that last scum is rolecop (and thus didn't think enigma was a rolecop) and lied about it? practically speaking tho do u think there is a way for us to identify said rolecop? because otherwise this is just setup spec that isn't super helpful rn

Not only killed Oka, killed Oka through a doc, it's all over a weird kill.

Dunno if there's any practical way at this stage, no.

[Sando]

It's really likely that AP activated his PGO ability N1 after that lolhammer

So the rolecop/cop couldn't have known that AP wasn't the doctor since there was only one town death --> Enigma wasn't a cop. I don't think we can conclusively say that scum have a cop basically

Oh this is a good point, activating PGO N1 would mean they knew for sure that it was an investigate.

[Sando]

Oh this is a good point, activating PGO N1 would mean they knew for sure that it

was

an investigate.

wasn't*

[Sando]

Okay just ISO's Sando and yeah I'm 100% fine him getting lynched. Very little things there reminded me of town!Sando, and him calling AP very likely town and flipping is not a good look at all lol.

Ofhrz is next

What town!Sando are you not being reminded of?

The time I played with you in Making Friends and Enemies!

Although you were a town PR there...

That's not my finest hour as town, I even replaced out due to conflicts

But yeah, I hate playing as PRs.

[Sando]

sando, i know a lot of what you think about the game from a mechanical/setup spec perspective but i'm not really sure who you're scumreading at this point.

Me either, lynched my biggest town read and biggest scum read in the last two days.

Music/Ausk then Skitter (only thing stopping me here is it means full townlynch of townies the last 2 days), then Cardi/Ohfrz, in order of scumminess.

I'd rather not poison the well too much on the comments around me, so I'm waiting for the protagonists to post tbh.

[Sando]

Invisibility (8) ~ ruru, skitter30, Enigma, OkaPoka, Cardi B, ofrhz, ceejayvinoya, AP,

AP (7) ~ ofrhz, skitter30, Enigma, OkaPoka, Skygazer, Sando, Music,

CJ - Cardi B, vulcan logician, ofrhz, Skygazer, Enigma, Ausuka,

Vulcan - Cardi B, Sando, Ausuka, Skygazer, ofrhz,

Ofrhz has been on every lynch.
Skitter has only lynched scum
Sando is 1-1 with 2 off-wagons
Cardi is 1-2 with 1 off-wagon
Ausuka has lynched 2 town and no scum
Mylo/Bujaber has lynched 1 scum and not been on 3 of the wagons

1 of those stands out there...I'm not sure why we're locktowning someone who's only ever lynched town.

[Sando]

I think lookin at the eod vote count for AP is pretty off the mark.

Ausuka is like half responsible for the AP lynch if u forgot that. She also has been judged above her pay grade as scum by three ladies who know her pretty well, bein skitter skygazer and cardi.

Fun random obso: sando unvoted AP 2 minutes after the claim after not doin anything for an hour an a half

You're right, looking at EOD vote to show Ausuka's voting pattern on AP is off the mark...I'll take Ausuka's vote on scum at any time throughout the entire game though.

I didn't forget it, it's being overblown. We'd worked out scum likely had PGO/Vig and Aus basically halved the pool for that. That's not half the responsibility.

Yeah...unvoting a claim is just such a terrible crime, totally deserve rope for that...

[Sando]

For Ausuka to be scum here, she would’ve had to fakeclaim picking 1-shot vig, a slot that her own scum partner picked. Why would she do that?

To not give away what she did pick, it's a safe fakeclaim, you absolutely know it was picked before you.

[Sando]

i think you're undervaluing the impact of her claim - we wouldn't have reallly been able to figure out *where* to start looking for the pgo without it - knowing that there's a pgo *somewhere* is kinda different than knowing that there's a scum pgo within a group of like 5 players or however many it were

also i dislike the bolded; kinda feels defensive/over-reaction-y to me almost

Ok but prior to D2 Aus had to tell Sky what she'd picked. If Aus has powers, she wouldn't want to claim it, and the only one they knew for sure was what Invis had picked, and PGO/Vig. Aus is taking an awful lot of credit for something she was forced to do. We dunno what Invis picked, but decent chance scum!Aus felt it was the safer to fakeclaim PGO/Vig rather than something else.

It's my

thing

to not lynch fakeclaims or counterclaims, and I get annoyed at people SRing me for doing pro-town things. I'll happily provide games where town decided to basically gamethrow because I argued we shouldn't lynch into a CC'd claim (my argument was correct and we lost).

[Sando]

she could've just like claimed neighborizer/fruit vendor since at that point she knew sky had it; or jk/tracker since ruru had died

No...Ausuka had to tell Sky what they'd picked N1, before the Ruru death was resolved.

[Sando]

Ok but prior to D2 Aus had to tell Sky what she'd picked. If Aus has powers, she wouldn't want to claim it, and the only one they knew for sure was what Invis had picked, and PGO/Vig. Aus is taking an awful lot of credit for something she was forced to do. We dunno what Invis picked, but decent chance scum!Aus felt it was the safer to fakeclaim PGO/Vig rather than something else.

Be more specific! What kind of powers do you think I'd be unable to claim? Why not claim Invisibility's attempted power, when we know he failed and therefore that someone else has that ability? Why not claim that I went for neighbourizer like many people do in PYP XY?

You could fakeclaim:
Neighbour
Invis-choice
PGO/Vig

Those are the only 100% safe fakeclaims that I can think of. You're right, I hadn't considered Neighbour as an option.

[Sando]

Have you made any effort to sort me by like reading my posts and deciding if you want to lynch me (I think arguing this would be justified if you did) instead of just saying "uhh ACTUALLY ausuka isn't clear"? Because it seems like you have an issue with me being widely townread but you also don't seem to be willing to push me very much.

Ahh I was asked for my reads, got attacked for scumreading you because you're "locktown" and have been defending (attacking?) that ever since. Turning around and whinging that I'm attacking locktown status without reading is kinda ridiculous right now.

You've literally never voted for any scum and you've lynched two townies, claiming that you're locktown is out of proportion with what happened.

[Sando]

can you explain why you're scumreading her? is it literally just that she hadn't been on any scum lynches and that she hasn't voted for scum? i think that's a pretty shallow way to approach the game and your read on her and doesn't take into account her actions that led to the ap lynch imo; like i've been trying to get you to explain why scum!her does the pgo thing at all when she had several safe picks to claim at that point

You mean other than seeking to be conf!towned for it?

Skitter you've mislynched me before because the person I was looking at "could not possibly be scum because of X", and scum turned out to be someone who had also done X...

You more than most should be aware it's how I look at the game, and I find locktowning pretty BS unless it's mechanical in nature.

Other than that, yeah:

this post is really bad; specifically the ceejay wagon, which is complete busywork. he's literally saying that he has no reason to scumread cjv.

the vote accomplishes nothing and i don't see how it was meant to accomplish anything.

i'm interested in why you didn't call out invisibility's vote here. his votes were on inactive players (in particular, a player invis thought may not even be checking the site), but as soon as the inactive players returned, he unvoted them, so literally no pressure was applied by his vote.

I, uh, didn't know invis was doing that

With hindsight this doesn't look great.

i will probably hammer cjv soon. no confidence that it flips red but everyone else wants it and I can't really fight it

VOTE: ceejayvinoya

let's flip Vulcan over Cardi please and thank you.

Like...I get that I'm generally fairly apathetic here, I'm not exactly enjoying Mafia rn. But why is my apathy that at least backs up my reads (CJ is town, Vulcan is scum) being scumread, while ^this gets "locktown"?

[Sando]

AP could be scum RB but I very much doubt he's scumvig which means we should go for Vulcan or skitter today imo. The quick wagon means he's more likely to be town and people on it are more likely to be scum I think. I'm not a fan of skitter's vote when she was defending AP earlier.

Yeah mate, you sure deserve this sort of credit:

also AP never dies d2 without my claim.

The vig/PGO thing clears me. I townleaned invis d1, yes, that means nothing at this point.

So:

1. I never claimed I was locktown, although skitter and cardi tr me to the point where I'm not sure why you want to push me today.

Yeah you did.

[Sando]

Sure?

VOTE: Ausuka

[Sando]

Sando didn’t comment on ruru’s PGO claim at all, which is a little bizarre

Ehhh neither did Ausuka

Ausuka seemed pretty upset at me trying for vengeful though:

If someone attempted to nab doctor though and didn't... We can lynch from VTs down

Yeah that's true, just don't see the need to wait until that happens to start the claims, if it happens, great, if not, we can still get on with it.

I'm off to gym, I'll post my pick in a few hours.

I tried to pick Vengeful.

Uhhh. Why did you wait to claim here wtf???? It literally takes seconds to claim your pick. It must have taken longer to write the bottom line than to actually claim.

And why did you choose Vengeful????

But why vengeful over n3 vig??? Can you link me to a town game where you got lynched?

But why vengeful over n3 vig??? Can you link me to a town game where you got lynched?

I suck at PR, you want me to take a killing role?!

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76232

Skitter literally lynched me in a TvT in this one.

It's vig... Can't you just kill the player seen as the most scummy by everyone and move on with your day?

And like is that the only example? When I've played with you before you seemed difficult to mislynch and it seems like Vengeful isn't a role you're so likely to choose as town. Although I think Invis went for vengeful so maybe I'm overthinking this? idk

[Sando]

You know...
If she were scum pgo..

She'd probably play it the same way. The scum motivation is to do whatever you want when posting as you can see.

That said ruru, please if town

use your limited time alive

to share actual insight because I for one am pro-policy lynch for roles like pgo and miller etc.

I think suggesting we PL ruru is more likely to come from town than scum though, since scum knew ruru was lying about her claim

Sorry but this bold part seems really weird. Sure PGO is getting policy lynched at some point, but probs not before around day 3 at the earliest with no scumlynches? That's not "limited", and telling a PGO that their time is limited seems pretty weird.

[Sando]

Sando do u think town's gonna win or lose

Town still in strong position, but need to actually turn on to pull it out, I'd give it a "more likely than not".

Do you have nothing to say about what Aus/me/Ofhrz have said or are we going with the existential questions today?

[Sando]

What does "turn on" entail?

Do I need to explain what "pull it out" means too?

[Sando]

why is AP in your not-lynch today?

Meta

Ok sorry.

General jovial nature, while 277 is a pretty in-depth post that I don't think comes from scum (when combined with other non-serious posts). There's more to progressing game-state than just voting, and he's contributing imo. He's not in my town-pool, that's just CJ at this stage, but I think he's a terrible lynch today.

This is a little bit suspicious considering Sando was hoodwinked by wolf!AP in Jungle Republic. I would expect him to put AP as null or qualify his read here somehow

I've been hoodwinked by CJ before as well and called him a hell of a lot townier than I did AP this game... Paranoia isn't a good way to improve your game.

Also what about my progression from "not D1 lynch but not yet towncore" on D1 to "lynch this guy" on D2 do you find suspicious and out of character for someone who's never played a T+T with AP (I don't think I have, only a town to his scum and scum to his town)?

[Sando]

@Sando

Sure but in retrospect, I can see how CJ was unusually town this game

I guess I don't see how AP was super different this game than his wolf!game in Jungle Republic to justify your townread, given your personal experience with him.

I'm not at D2 yet I'm only on page 20-something and tbh I don't remember how your progression on AP went down

Fair enough.

But to be clear, it doesn't bother me at all that someone "fools" me for 1 in-game day. It REALLY doesn't bother me if someone "fools" me D1. There's a certain amount of quality of content you gotta post to get me off your back D1, and it's hard to maintain that as scum, all I'm hoping to do is force scum to post constructively, which is hard to maintain over the course of a game. For reference, see APs D2

[Sando]

What does "turn on" entail?

What is standing in the way of town winning?

Oh wait you were serious.

"Turn on", to take something from an "off" position to the "on" position.

In specifics to Mafia, actually engaging and posting constructively and not whinging about apathy like I and a bunch of others have been doing for a while now.

[Sando]

if you're town, can you tryhard for like 2 irl days and not keel over and die like vl did

I spent my Friday I think it was arguing with Aus and pulling out why their townlockedness was bs, and also showed why the claim that they'd "never claimed townlock status" was a lie, and I'm clearly going back and forth with you. I'm not sure why the snark?

can you start with why you are (were?) townreading cardi

Cardi was in the same boat as AP, I felt the content was going to be hard to maintain as scum, but I also thought the style was more likely town than scum. Music/Aus are my top scum-reads today, Skitter mechanically just makes sense, but us lynching town 2 days in a row like that with no help from Skitter!scum isn't something I can easily get past. Ofrhz is probably my strongest townread. Somewhere around skitter sits Cardi, could be more townie, could be less townie depending on how I feel at the time. I think last mention of lists put her around your level of towniness, which I no longer agree with, but not to a huge scummie extent.

But my focus is on Music/Aus until someone actually shows something scummy there, rather than just constantly being asked "but why townread?".

[Sando]

you've been more reactive than proactive since you've been put under scrutiny, so I didn't really count that interaction with Ausuka

Wait you think in my discussion with Ausuka that it's ME that's been the reactive one? What? You want to call Ausuka's posting there "pro-active"?

I can understand the reasoning behind why you don't want to locktown Ausuka, even if I disagree with it

but to go from "ausuka is not locktown" to "ausuka is scum" is not a trajectory i am following. like ausuka's votes were pretty bad, but cardi's were not much better. Given cardi's reasons for voting invis and the timing of her vote, cardi's vote on invis shouldn't garner her any towncred imo

I didn't vote Ausuka until she started lying about "never claiming locktown", the progression was:
Sando - Yeah Ausuka isn't as locktown as you're all claiming
Ausuka - Yeah I am
Sando - Nah, and claiming you are is scummy
Ausuka - I never claimed that!
Sando - Ahhh, yeah you did, here

[Sando]

I am still interested in your townread in cardi because she's been my top scumread for a while now

Then outline your scumread?

I mean all you're going to get from me is "I'm more interested in Mylo/Aus atm".

But my focus is on Music/Aus until someone actually shows something scummy there, rather than just constantly being asked "but why townread?".

[Sando]

The push on you started when you were asked your scumreads and then a couple of people followed up with that post. Rereading through it just now, it was a combination of skitter and ausuka delving deeper into your reads, which lead to you divulging your Ausuka read and that lead to the 1v1. It still reads as reactive tbh

Just to be clear, are you saying "reactive" equals scummy here?

[Sando]

pedit: no, I meant reactive as in "you yourself admitted you've checked out of this game, which I think is NAI. But if you're town, try to check in for at least a few more days to obvtown, so we don't have a repeat of the vulcan lynch"

Ok this first: Why does this need discussion then? It doesn't change content, like it's pretty obvious I had thoughts on Aus around the whole "locktown" and hadn't gotten around to articulating it. What I then articulate isn't changed because I was grudging about it.

[Sando]

ausuka likes to do wagon analysis before the flip, which I think has lead to why she has not been on either scum lynch. I don't think this kind of faulty reasoning is scum indicative for Ausuka because this is something she has done as town in the past. (the game I am referring to: viewtopic.php?t=76282&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go)

both wagons on invis and AP built up REALLY FAST, and ausuka tends to apply the reasoning "this wagon has built up too fast, which means it must be scum-driven," which would explain why she wasn't on either scum lynches.

I mean I know I'm copping flak for the idea that Aus wasn't on the LYNCH isn't necessarily indicative. That doesn't change that Aus didn't vote either of them, ever. Aus basically never posted anything scummy about them. L

Also, how then is the CJ lynch NOT scummy from Aus? CJ went from L-3 to L-1 in under 2 hours, and Aus hammered with nothing to say about that less than 24 hours later. How is that "wagon analysis before the flip"?

[Sando]

0. Brass was questionable. I outlined his posts that didn't make sense. Why was he super focused on Ausuka's presence in game but not Invisibility's? He also never responded to Bujaber's meta-read gut scumread on him (the read from Bujaber was basically: brass was more confident in this game, which is similar to his scumgames)
1. Cardi's scumreads have CONSISTENTLY BEEN LOW-HANGING FRUit this entire game
1a. She first scumread okapoka and kept pushing him for a part of D2. Sando, you tried to ML oka in your last scumgame, you should know why this is NAGL
1b. She then tried to go for Vulcan, who was also kind of an easy ML
1c. She's been asking really useless questions today
2. CARDI HAS NOT EXHIBITED TOWNINESS
2a. People who have exhibited towniness:
- Ausuka: her claiming 1-shot vig was completely unnecessary
- Mylo: Bujaber was really town, and Mylo has that carefree tone
- skitter: hasn't done stupid shit like push conf!town TW like she did in her last scumgame
- sando: sorta town by meta but also in your 1v1 with Bujaber, you were really town
- By PoE, Cardi's scum equity is pretty high
- ok, so admittedly this is mostly a PoE scumread. STILL.
3. At this point, with so many townreads, I need a good reason to not vote cardi, and "having logical/towny thought processes" is the only reason I was given by skitter, and that's not a very good reason considering everyone remaining has also demonstrated towny thought processes

0 - Fair, although same could be said of Aus who called out Vulcan for something while ignoring Invis, you're the person who called her out for it.
1a) I don't think the parallel holds tbh
1b) When are you referring to?
1c) Yeah agreed and it's a reason I've downgraded from somewhere near town to barely town imo
2) I'd disagree with this generalisation, but I think you're saying "no specific point of OMG TOWN!", which is probably reasonable.
2a) I clearly disagree on Aus, Mylo I'm not going to poison the well but I'm up in the air there. I'd agree on skitter but waiting on more.

[Sando]

pedit: no, I meant reactive as in "you yourself admitted you've checked out of this game, which I think is NAI. But if you're town, try to check in for at least a few more days to obvtown, so we don't have a repeat of the vulcan lynch"

Ok this first: Why does this need discussion then? It doesn't change content, like it's pretty obvious I had thoughts on Aus around the whole "locktown" and hadn't gotten around to articulating it. What I then articulate isn't changed because I was grudging about it.

are we still talking about the same thing? i'm very confused

Well I thought you were scumreading me for "reactiveness", but you say no.

So now I'm thinking you're writing off the Aus argument as "reactiveness". My point is that Aus's actions aren't more or less townie because I'm being reactive (or not) in bringing them up.

[Sando]

question: how much do you value anti-associatives in a general sense?

i think that might be part of what's going on here and in the jungle republic game - i will sometimes view a given interaction as just not ever coming from partners and i'll clear them for it. the reason you got mislynched in the jungle republic game is because you were scumreading me and i thought i was hilariously beyond clear for how ap's lynch went down there and i couldn't understand how that could be a real read that you were pushing

My point is you were "hilariously beyond clear" for doing something that CJ also did (on what lynch I forget).

I accused you of being scum.
You said "nah that's stupid, I did XYZ, I can't POSSIBLY be scum, YOU must be scum for saying I'm scum"
Turns out scum had ALSO done XYZ.

So yes I was wrong about you being scum, but your reasoning for the clear was pretty self-evidently wrong, and I was right that scum could do XYZ.

The difference here is that you're locktowning someone else, instead of yourself. But the principle is the same, locktowning like that is dangerous.

This was what I wrote in the dead-thread btw:

Skitter is the only town currently capable of making a coherent case and will defend CJ with the same reasoning she's defending herself

[Sando]

i don't really understand why you have 'not being on ap's wagon' as a more important factor than 'being the impetus for ap's wagon in the first place'

THIS:

^ basically my thoughts. AP could be scum RB but I very much doubt he's scumvig which means we should go for Vulcan or skitter today imo. The quick wagon means he's more likely to be town and people on it are more likely to be scum I think. I'm not a fan of skitter's vote when she was defending AP earlier.

Is NOT "not on the wagon". Just because I quoted the lynch names does NOT mean I think that being on the wagon at the end is the end all be all.

[Sando]

I'm neighbourizer and through PoE from my neighbor's claim we discovered that there has to be a Vig/PGO in AP/Skitter/Oka/Vulcan which means that one of those players would know that a ruru kill would be safe

We think that Oka and Vulcan are town, though, and that AP would've used their one-shot last night

For reference it took us a little bit to put together that there's likely a scum PGO/vig in the pool of people above her. When I realized, Ausuka was really cautious over jumping to conclusions and we worked through a few scenarios where this wouldn't be the case. We're townreading Oka and Vulcan,

we realized that if AP had the role he would've likely taken the shot out of fear of being lynched

, and skitter-scum is consistent with Ausuka's reads which I trust.

like why does scum!ausuka have this convo with sky in the first place?

like why not just claim something safe (she had at least four safepicks at this point)

I mean I get it, but literally other than saying the words "PGO/Vig" Aus did literally nothing, and actively worked against the idea of AP being scum multiple times.

[Sando]

and tbf i was clearing him for one good vote whereas scum!me would have been bussing via getting the seer to start a wagon on my partner; those aren't quite the same thing, and cj didn't do that

You may not have been clearing CJ for it, but CJ had done the exact thing you were claiming cleared you.

Skitter is the only town currently capable of making a coherent case and will defend CJ with the same reasoning she's defending herself, with the pressure from Klick I'm not sure how she ever gets it done with CJ.

This was what I said in dead thread.

Regardless, you're well aware that I don't respect "locktown" reads And the reaction to this from Ausuka has not exactly moved her towards town in my eyes...

Interested in the Mylo read there. If he's scum, me and Aus just set up a massive TvT, what about Mylo says he quietly slinks away from that as scum? Seems like a good situation for him, sitting on one of the TvT wagons before it even starts.

[Sando]

i think on some fundemental level we view anti-associatives differently because i still believe my behavior around the ap lynch in jungle republic should have been clearing, and i also believe that ausuka's behavior around the ap lynch in this game ought to be clearing too

This though, combined with ignoring points about other scummy behaviour is exactly why it's so dangerous.

You're basically saying that no amount of scuminess can ever overcome reducing our pool from say 10 to 5? I don't know what the exact numbers were at the time, but if you want a reason for why scum would do that, it's right there, you're clearing them.

[Sando]

but i don't think her behavior is scummy tho; like the things you're viewing as scummy i don't think is scummy here

You don't find lying about claiming locktown is scummy?

[Sando]

mylo has lurked through much of the game imo, even as music, and that's kinda a hallmark of scum!mylo; town!mylo doesn't really have to be prodded to give content and he's *present* and sharing his thoughts and i don't really see that here

town!mylo may not be super confident about his opinions but he at least shares them and indicates what he believes town needs to do to win and his thoughts are incredibly transparent

in contrast scum!mylo is very tentative and has trouble committing to reads ime. like i don't really know what he's thinking here or where he thinks scum is and like every read has to be dragged out of him

he unvoted you after i prodded him multiple times over the fact that his reason for scumreading you here was on meta that wasn't relevant to this particular situation because in the meta he was referencing you were a town pr; i would kinda expect him to follow that up with some thoughts about where scum *is* if it isn't you but he didn't

I disagree for *reasons*, but I need some time for this, time I doubt we have today tbh.

Either way, yeah I'm on Aus/Mylo. I don't think it's Skitter. I don't think it's Ofhrz. It could be Cardi.

Neither of my TRs think it's Aus.

That leaves me Mylo, whose play today doesn't make sense for scum imo, or Cardi who I'm just not seeing scummy behaviour from. Sure there's a distinct lack of town behaviour, but I don't see much scumminess.

We got two days, I'll commit to any of those 3, preference in Aus>Mylo>Cardi, or you guys can lynch me.

I'm kinda over being told I'm apathetic with this town though tbh.

[Sando]

ughhhhhhhhhh deadline is in less than 3 days

Honestly thought it was closer, but yeah.

[Sando]

Hokay Im gonna say skitter,

AP

,ruru,ohrfrz probably town. I think

Invinibilty

,Skygazer n Engima are all hot maybes. VOTE: OkaPoka is where the shmoney is for me righnow.

I think Invisibility in particular was a weird townlean to have at this stage in the game. The dude was just randomly voting lurkers/people he thought siteflaked and as soon as those people returned, he would unvote and move his vote onto someone else.

Did I not even get a mention? Geez...

[Sando]

mylo how confident are you in your brass tr?

inclined to say we resolve sando / me today? not sure why sando is talking up how towny mylo is while saying that cardi is fairly null but saying mylo is the better lynch.

Because I pulled out a singular action and said it doesn't make sense as scum?

The shade is noted though.

[Sando]

Idk

My best guess is that he was either trying to claim his way out of a lynch and/or try to force a cc

I'm feeling a little bit lost rn

I don't think it's ausuka or ofrhz, and probably not mylo either

I don't particularly townread sando but i dont particularly scumread him either. I do think that its kinda risky for scum!sando to start a thing on town!ausuka and not to back down here tho

My townread on cardi is kinda fading

The doc claim was kind of a suboptimal claim imo

I think given the town mob trajectory of lol-lynching in that pool of people above Ausuka in the draft, AP could've just... claimed VT and sat back as he watched us shoot fish in that barrel of players (who are also more likely to be PRs since they're mostly higher in the draft than he was). Like I don't understand why it was optimal to claim Doc here and run the risk of a CC.

Current working theory is that maybe the scumteam knew there was a doc/rb in play and wanted to do a 1v1 trade? (like have AP suicide claim Doc to out the real doctor) That would pretty heavily implicate the people below Enigma (i.e. Bujaber, Sando, and me) (i.e. not Cardi)

But why doc? Like why not something investigative or the like? They obviously didn't have RB to stop the subsequent doc, who they left alive anyway! I guess if they'd forced something like a cop to claim and left the doc up and unclaimed it'd get protected and not much they can do about it.

I'd agree with your suggestion that it makes a lot more sense if they knew there was a doc out there, and yeah that says me, you or Mylo.

[Sando]

I think given the town mob trajectory of lol-lynching in that pool of people above Ausuka in the draft, AP could've just... claimed VT and sat back as he watched us shoot fish in that barrel of players (who are also more likely to be PRs since they're mostly higher in the draft than he was). Like I don't understand why it was optimal to claim Doc here and run the risk of a CC.

Wait you think AP was gonna survive a VT claim? I seriously doubt that.

[Sando]

I can't really think of a great explanation, so maybe they were looking to out a possible doc / gambled on there not being a doc / what you said about avoid outing an investigative CC and having a possible doctor protect them makes sense (although this last possibility also increases the chances of scum knowing there was a doc/rb).

There is/was no investigative is there? If they somehow knew there was a cop/rolecop then you fakeclaim the doc and bait the investigation onto your PGO. But without the confirmation that there's an investigative why do that?

[Sando]

-> i don't like how she went from hypo-inno'ing vulcan day3 to pushing his mislynch day4; if she's scum she kinda went the easy route of pushing someone very mislynchable; specifically how she changed her mind that ap wouldn't vote a scumbuddy at the end of day2 to saying that ap could have voted his buddy.

Do you think the hypo-inno in isolation is scummy? Like is this a town-action to hypo-inno that subsequently is scummy because they pushed the lynch on their hypo-inno? Or do you think the hypo-inno itself is at least somewhat scummy?

[Sando]

Do you think Cardi's whole schtick comes from someone who doesn't like scum but drew it?

So Hypo-inno is townie
Removing the Hypo-inno to get a lynch is scummy?

Fair to say?

Do you think the hypo-inno needed to be removed to get the vulcan lynch? Unless Cardi was the 2nd choice for lynch, didn't really need to be done as scum?

[Sando]

Roleplay - ie I don't see someone who dislikes scum or is worried about playing scum then go out and put on this act. It's a confident player is what I'm saying, one way or the other.

[Sando]

day3 people were playing around lynching vulcan because of the hypo-inno so if that was still in play i don't know if vulcan would have gotten lynched that day

Wait timeline me here, I'm confused:

D3 we massclaim, Cardi hypo-innos Vulcan
D3 we lynch CJ
D4 we lynch Vulcan

When in that was the hypo-inno exactly and when was the retraction/attack?

[Sando]

i thought she was doing it to make it harder to figure out her main tbh; i've seen scum before use the rp to make it harder for people to read them as they normally would (alisae in mkultra)

i kinda want her to talk about how she views her scumgame

day3 massclaim, hypo-innos vulcan; lynchpool was cj/vulcan/cardi; day3 we lynch cj; beginning of day4 she retracts it and pushes vulcan and we lynch vulcan

Ok that timeline is scummy, agreed.

Yeah I see where you're coming from, what I'm saying is that these two statements don't correlate imo:

• Cardi D3 play is indicative of scum that aren't confident scum
  Cardi is roleplaying to make it harder to figure out her main

I think if she's roleplaying to make it harder to figure out her main, she's confident scum.

[Sando]

Ive seen a bunch of "fuck all yall Im done town better wake up" reactions in my day (vulcans is a good example) and the combination of stuff Im seein from Sando just doesnt sit right at all. Yall can see the effects of bein in this gotdam game for 2 months in erryone else: ausuka is gettin snappy and postin less, ofhrz is tryna open her third eye wit some wine, skitter been postin a bit slower and a lot more casual I think (ctrl f the word "idk" in her iso and check out where the little yellow lines are), mylo been openly focusin more on other stuff (lmao), I been all over the place

So basically anything is a town response other than mine?

Yeah...righto.

Also I've been far less apathetic than anyone else today, claiming that I'm "just apathetic" and posting the same way is fucking hilarious.

[Sando]

1b. She then tried to go for Vulcan, who was also kind of an easy ML

If yall talkin bout d2 it took us long enough to do that lmao

1c. She's been asking really useless questions today

If it is just sando and I asked him a level 2 reads question and he gave a legit shitty answer yall betta find somethin to hide behind in postgame

How on earth were they in any way actually read related?

You asked me "do you think town will win" and then SRd my response (lol). How is that a read question?

[Sando]

Fine Skitter, I see your point

[Sando]

Sando do u think town's gonna win or lose

Town still in strong position, but need to actually turn on to pull it out, I'd give it a "more likely than not".

Do you have nothing to say about what Aus/me/Ofhrz have said or are we going with the existential questions today?

The reason I asked is bc I don't get any sense that Sando is thinking about what he needs to do as town to win

Like ausuka has been more or less locktowned by several people which means if she's scum she pretty much wins like 100% of the time since she can just nightkill favoring that. Like he might be one of the people that just doesn't think like that but like: if the person he's voting/pushing in the last few pages is scum then town is pretty clearly well on the course to losing? And he's not doing anything about it (like for example bein like "yall gotta look at ausuka when I flip or yall muffuckas gon get shit on in postgame" or somm like that)

He also said mylo was a top SR I think? And idk if that lynch happens over me

like this post feels really really townie to me

i had felt that the questions she was asking earlier felt kinda inane but this follow-up shows why she asked it: that she was trying to figure out sando's mindset and what he, as town, thought we ought to do to win this

Ok what? How is this townie or true?

When have you seen me flip out and yell "y'all motherfuckers better lynch skitter tomorrow or you're dead"? Shit, last game we played I called you town while you mislynched me...

To me this looks like Cardi asked an incredibly open ended question and then just made up some reasoning for why to scumread it. Both questions were like this.

Sando just be like "Im apathetic." and it feels to me like he's mostly been postin the same way. Idk.

This is just flat out a lie, I've been consistently engaged while Cardi's posted some BS.

[Sando]

consistently engaged while Cardi's posted some BS.

Consistently engaged today* while Cardi's posted some BS

[Sando]

Ive seen a bunch of "fuck all yall Im done town better wake up" reactions in my day (vulcans is a good example) and the combination of stuff Im seein from Sando just doesnt sit right at all. Yall can see the effects of bein in this gotdam game for 2 months in erryone else: ausuka is gettin snappy and postin less, ofhrz is tryna open her third eye wit some wine, skitter been postin a bit slower and a lot more casual I think (ctrl f the word "idk" in her iso and check out where the little yellow lines are), mylo been openly focusin more on other stuff (lmao), I been all over the place

Sando just be like "Im apathetic." and it feels to me like he's mostly been postin the same way. Idk.

Skitter/Ofhrz this is the scummiest thing I've seen from Cardi all game.

Asks about as open ended question as it gets "yo what we gotta do to win?", targeted at Sando and Sando only.

ausuka is gettin snappy and postin less

- Snappy and not posting = townie

ofhrz is tryna open her third eye wit some wine

- mentioning drinking once = townie

skitter been postin a bit slower and a lot more casual I think

- posting less and not really taking it seriously = townie

mylo been openly focusin more on other stuff

- not paying attention = townie

I been all over the place

- doing whatever the fuck you want = townie

Sando just be like "Im apathetic." and it feels to me like he's mostly been postin the same way.

- Being apathetic = scummy

Like what the actual fuck? How is that not just desperately looking to read scum onto Sando? Not to mention, I haven't been fucking apathetic today. There was clearly literally nothing I could have said to get townread there. That's scummy AF.

[Sando]

I think this was saying that town is more likely to suffer from game fatigue at this stage? I kind of agree with this

So I was checked out of the games for 2 days but I'm the person who is scummy? You now want to read into me posting more today, which you asked/begged me to do, as scummy because town should actually be checked out?

I mean sure...have fun tomorrow.

VOTE: Cardi