Mini Normal 2023 - Game Over

[UnrealSeal]

oh hey GR nice to see you again

VOTE: Gustavo[/vote[

[UnrealSeal]

first post of the game and I fucked up the vote tags

go me

[UnrealSeal]

James forcefully trying to paint a specific picture here and I don't think it has anything to do with Biases

VOTE: James

[UnrealSeal]

so why did you vote GR over me.

[UnrealSeal]

about to make a post before I do I want to know

Gustavo, what is your current read on James?

[UnrealSeal]

okay, a bit late with this but I'm gonna go ahead with it

my take on the Gustavo v. James situation is that it's TvT. I don't think any scum would be worried about a random RVS vote and question and while I'm a little less sure about James, the motive behind is his posting is less clear than I'm willing to bet on.

Garmr on the other hand, feels scummy, weird posting aside, his argument against Gustavo seems to largely revolve around Gustavo's posts being wrong/useless rather than actually trying to point out why Gustavo is scummy

VOTE: Garmr

[UnrealSeal]

I don't think this site has a hard on for no investigative I just think this site doesn't like Cops (the role you dummy) for understandable reasons.

I don't think a game of this size would include a third party either but who knows.

I think at this point, we need Associative reads more than we need the PR's, because there's enough players that I don't think PR's have a good chance of catching someone straight away

[UnrealSeal]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

quote from the page

"The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). In mini games (at most 13 players), there must be exactly one such group, with no third parties. In large games (at least 14 players), a second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group, and there should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer."

[UnrealSeal]

Seal - why can't it be SvS?

this is a possibility, one I didn't think of until you brought it up.

I'll admit, it sounds plausible but I think at the moment there's not enough evidence to make it anything more than a possibility. Until I see something blatantly scummy come out of both of them, I'm gonna go with Occam's Razor on this one and say it's TvT.

That being said, Garmr is still the best wagon at the moment, for reasons I've elaborated on in 136

[UnrealSeal]

@GR i've seen scum get this frustrated too so the replace out is null to me.

so the answer is yes.

pedit oh shit l-1

UNVOTE:

[UnrealSeal]

I don't want a lolhammer because some people haven't posted yet I think.

[UnrealSeal]

@GR frustration is not a strictly town thing

I have seen scum get this frustrated before and either leave or even gamethrow

I'll agree that the reaction is genuine but I don't think it necessarily means anything

[UnrealSeal]

I mean

are you willing to lynch this and take the consequences if it flips town?

zzzz

Yes. The only reason I'm not voting him right now is because that would be L-1 and I'd rather wait until others come in and are able to get a read on the situation before lynching him.

[UnrealSeal]

@James I think it's more likely popo is newbtown rather than scum.

especially given his recent posts, it reads like someone who did read through the wiki for a bit and then decided to join in a game. He also isn't an alt I don't think.

[UnrealSeal]

@popo why did you /in for a newbie game then

[UnrealSeal]

no I meant that he posted in the newbie queue thread to in

whatever, I still think he's more dumbtown than scum although it's a weaker read now.

[UnrealSeal]

@James his arguements are incredibly simplistic and WIFOM reliant, he seems to have trouble understanding certain concepts (see 33, 35) and the way his posts read he's bought into his ego thinking that he's able to read the game so perfectly that he's able to catch you on page 1. He's also invoked Lynch All Liars on two occasions now (the first being #60).

this doesn't read like scum pushing an agenda, it reads like an idiot who thinks he's king of mafia.

[UnrealSeal]

I still think Garmr is a better lynch today.

popo's dumb but I genuinely don't think he's scum and I'm generally averse to policy lynching

[UnrealSeal]

trust me I know all about terrible tunnels derailing town and why not to follow them. plus James is currently a bit north of null for me at the moment.

that being said, waiting on Locke to post whatever he's gonna post before I put Garmr back to L-1.

outside of Garmr I'd take a look at Krazy and FrenchAchilles. Krazy's vote on Garmr feels weak which might be a bus/distancing, and French's 185 is pretty bad.

[UnrealSeal]

I'll stay in and get hammered, Just because I got angry no point in replacing out causing stress to the mod and letting another get hammered instantly.

AtE, also makes me agree with Bujaber and Gustavo that the replace out thing might've been a gambit.

I'm town but can we get my lynch over and done with already.

AtE.

That's two different situations WTF. 1. Is the main reason I wanted another slot. 2.I didn't want to play in slot that was being scum read for actions I didn't do. 3.A tactical replace out is to make your slot look townie which it wouldn't of achieved.

Also there is one game I did do it ages back when I was newish. But I haven't done it since.

his responses to Gustavo seem defensive and again invoke the

VOTE: Garmr, I'm pretty done with this day.

if he flips town then first Vig me, then take a look at Gustavo

if he flips scum, look at Hiraki, he white-knighted for Garmr in his one (and only substantive) post. James as well, Garmr was highly defensive of James before turning on him when his wagon started picking up steam, which could be distancing.

[UnrealSeal]

his responses to Gustavo seem defensive and again invoke the

*"I don't need you to be actually scummy, I need you to be wrong" trick

i need to proofread better

[UnrealSeal]

I think it's L-3?

@mod can we get a VC

[UnrealSeal]

The fact that robster doesn’t reconsider given the new evidence means he’s either scum with garmr or white knighting them.

Nobody should ever town read him for the remainder of the game.

He’s defending garmer for something he’s done multiple times as scum and we can rule out they are masons so yeah.

That is

somewhat extreme

to say the least.

[UnrealSeal]

@hiraki okay you misunderstood me

like on several levels.

when both Garmr and James understood what I was talking about

in 37 I was referring to James's push on to Gustavo (not popo).

the picture thing refers to James trying to paint Gustavo as scummy for denying he OMGUS'd, despite having no proof of Gustavo's intentions and despite that being a silly thing for Gustavo as scum to be denying.

his push on to Gustavo was almost revolved around it for quite some time until the Garmr wagon crept up.

[UnrealSeal]

how about instead of replacing out we lynch Garmr

who by the way just ignored Gustavo's claim completely and is still tunneling him.

this whole shitfest needs to end and preferably with Garmr's death, since I don't want Gustavo to flip town and then have to do this shit all over again.

i can only Gustavo's prot can be used on himself

[UnrealSeal]

sorry, been a busy week for me as well as another game.

I've been following along and have been trying to formulate some thoughts on the matter.

so far my scumread in Garmr stands at the moment. It's somewhat weakened considering his recent posting but I'm not switching yet. FrenchAchilles also gets a scumlean for weak and oppurtunistic posting (164 looks like he's keeping his options open to switch wagons at any time) as well as lurking.

I'll ISO Robster but I really don't see the case for Robster scum at the moment. I see her as more null-town

[UnrealSeal]

if that prot can be used on himself, he should do that since scum will likely target him.

also, still isoing, still do not see the case for Robster scum. will post again when I have more to share

[UnrealSeal]

I'm back.

Sorry for being gone for a while. I was down with a nasty illness that left me unable to use the computer without adding to my already throbbing headache.

I'll do a catchup soon.

[UnrealSeal]

okay, I mostly skimmed through the walls, but I am at least somewhat caught up now.

I see we're doing this whole "put your lynch pool out there" thing

mine would be

Garmr
Music
French

don't agree with Krazy's case on BJ feels reachy and very wifom-reliant.

also don't agree with a Dr.D lynch, both players in that slot have always felt transparent about how they've felt about the game.

[UnrealSeal]

Gus dude just report it if it's actually a violation, which I don't think it is, since Otters vs Penguins has ended and he didn't mention the other games by name.

but everytime you make a big deal of it in the thread it just looks childish.

[UnrealSeal]

So the two people that have been lurking all game agree with you? Yeah I have real faith in this wagon.

uh Akarin just joined the game

unless your referring to someone else

[UnrealSeal]

I thought deadline was extended due to the large amount of replacements?

I would much rather lynch Garmr over James but I'll vote if it means avoiding a No Lynch

[UnrealSeal]

James if your on, please claim my dude

[UnrealSeal]

I was about to say Miller's non-normal but then I checked and it is considered normal now apparently.

I don't think this flips Scum.

On the other hand this proves the existence of a Cop or something similar and James can still use his shot.

I'm with Krazy that Garmr should be shot.

[UnrealSeal]

I must be thinking of Death Miller or something like it then.

also @Gamma, I'm actually an alt.

rusty af, but an alt.

[UnrealSeal]

his last visit was 1:40 PM, which coincides with the time he posted.

so he posted and logged off, he probably doesn't even know he's been hammered yet

chill dude.

[UnrealSeal]

Gus votes are bad, and the people voting him should feel bad. If I have to explain why I'll be a bit miffed since it should be blatantly obvious to anyone who knows how JOAT's work

I can see the reasons for a Gamma wagon but to hop in here with the meta defense, I've noticed in my previous game with Gamma (Transformers Mafia) that he has a playstyle that makes him easy to scumread even when town. So personally, I would rather wait for more flips/posts from him before sorting him. I don't TR him but I also don't think he's a good lynch at this point in time.

Locke wagon is pure nope. His ISO simply does not read like scum, James's TR of him is most likely buddying, especially since Locke seemed rather inquisitive of James even when James was not being directly under fire. (and when Garmr v. Gus was spotlight)

Popo can't be considered a VI anymore but is still a pain to work with.

Need to investigate more into Dr.D, Krazy, and BJ.

[UnrealSeal]

James's TR of him is most likely buddying,

Do you think so? I mean if you look at everyone that had a implied scum read on james they are scum read

Possible scum: Golden Retriever
ConfScum: Popo and Garmr.

or shaded

So the two people that have been lurking all game agree with you? Yeah I have real faith in this wagon.

There two exception and they are bujab and locke. I don't think he could push bujab after town reading Buj so hard so he flat out ignored Buj after he started pushing the wagon. While he defended locke he could of actually used that to let me shade locke and attach himself to locke instead of trying to fight the points. It would also of given a potential mislynch if locke was town if I was the one lynched.

This seems more like a coincidence than a pattern.

Remember that GR. and you were being wagoned at the time. I could also imagine scum!James thinking Popo was an easy mislynch. It makes sense as to why James would place all of them in his SR's, because those were popular picks for lynches (popo not so much) at the time and it meant he could swap votes onto any of them.

Meanwhile, it's harder to make a case for Bujaber (until his set of posts near the tail-end of D1 that were kind of weird) and Locke as scum, which is most likely why they don't show up in James's scumreads.

For the time, I'll sheep BJ and Gus on Dr.D, since the cases presented make sense. Will do my own investigation on the slot, although it's a pain since GR has a shitton of posts.

VOTE: Dr.D

[UnrealSeal]

yo, just coming in here to say that school has started up again for me (senior year) so my schedule might be packed for the next few days, since I got stuff to get in order.

I'll try to follow along best I can though.

[UnrealSeal]

I mean, Loyal Babysitter/Neighborizer is kind of investigative because your action will fail on scum. So I don't think the investigative part is a lie.

Other than that, my brain is full of fuck on what to think about that post.

[UnrealSeal]

That said, I'm happy with a Gus lynch. I think he's more likely confused town than not but don't think it's a slot we should be bringing into LYLO, claimed loyal neighborizer is useless so scum have no reason to NK him now, and having one fewer replacement would be much better for everyone's engagement.

let me boil your post down to it's most basic elements

let's fuckin purposefully mislynch a guy who I even admit is likely to be town because lylo or something lol. easy mislynch guys I'm so fuckin good at scum lmao.

opportunism so blatant you can smell it.

VOTE: Akarin

this is my vote for the remainder of the day thank you bye.

[UnrealSeal]

How hard would it have been for me to say I disbelieve Gus' claim?

what are you trying to say here?

that because you didn't say you disbelieved Gus' claim that makes your post not blatantly keeping your options open to jump on a wagon that's gaining traction?

that because you didn't say that, that excuses you from blantantly admitting you'd be fine with Gus being mislynched wink wink nudge nudge?

what are you trying to say here?

[UnrealSeal]

lmao how?

Loyal Neighborizer is literally a win-win no matter how it's used, unless it dies which it probably will now.

you either out someone as scum or get a neighbor to talk with town in private. Your neighbor essentially becomes a Mason at that point.

Furthermore, we still have a healthy deadline and multiple other people who are easily scummier than Gus. There's no reason to push for a purposeful mislynch here unless your either 1) fucking stupid or 2)scum. Guess which one I think you are now.

[UnrealSeal]

@popo your fucking planning for lylo when it's literally days off.

there are 12 other people alive

. I don't think we need to start planning for lylo on

day fucking 2

. We should focus on actually lynching scum today and I don't think that scum is Gus.

[UnrealSeal]

Other than that, my brain is full of fuck on what to think about that post.

do you believe the claim seal? why are you defending gustavo so hard?

I do believe Gus' claim. I believe he's town because despite the claim fuckery his ISO and general argumentation seem to come from a Town POV, although it is the POV of a raging asshole.

I also belive Akarin's scum and you should vote her with me.

[UnrealSeal]

how about

no policy lynches today

and instead we lynch Akarin

[UnrealSeal]

here is a question Bujaber

if I were removed from this game entirely (as in, none of my posts were ever made this game) would you want to lynch Akarin.

[UnrealSeal]

also the fact that a kill was on me and that it almost certainly leads to unrealscum just proves my point on how withholding information on an innocent is more hurtful than helpful

no one in the game said anything about unreal except me and i was pretty much ignored about it, that is 100% the most perfect kill for unreal to do

or, scum could've tried to kill you in order to frame me and push for an easy mislynch

just because nobody responded to your arguments about me doesn't mean nobody took note of them

this is also a completely WIFOM argument that depends entirely on knowing what scum was thinking at the time.

I'm chill with a unreal seal lynch. He seemed to avoid placing a read on despite pushing me so hard yesterday.

VOTE: Unreal seal

Because I was completely unsure of what to think of you given James's flip, and wanted to see more of your posting in D2 before I fully reevaluated my read on you, and I still have no idea what to think about you still.

these reasons for voting me are weak, despite that, people are choosing to wagon me over Akarin who made the absolute worst post in the game (1344) and letting her getting off scot-free for literally wanting to lynch a claimed PR for the most of bullshit of reasons (because lylo which we are not even close to, and saying that Loyal Neigborizer is useless).

[UnrealSeal]

or, scum could've tried to kill you in order to frame me and push for an easy mislynch

Explain how you are the easy mislynch if D2 starts with Hikari dead. That seems like the far more WIFOM case to me.

explain why scum can't just parrot Hikari's arguments while also pointing out that he's dead.

Hikari being dead would provide an excellent platform for scum to kickstart a mislynch on me.

[UnrealSeal]

why did that get posted twice

[UnrealSeal]

???

You didn't "call me out" until I started pushing Akarin though? And do you not expect people to respond to pushes against them?

Speaking of responses, you haven't responded to my 1426 and 1433 which were responses to points you made.

Also

Arakin votes are dumb because as much as you guys don't believe my reasoning, at least I have it.

???

I have reasoning for pushing Akarin though? I've made multiple posts about it and argued back and forth with Akarin herself on it though? And both Krazy and Dr.D have both given stated reasons for voting Akarin as well?

None of the above posts makes any fucking sense. It's shade without any backing behind it.

@Garmr post 1452, that argument though, mostly relies on us knowing your alignment, which we don't and I myself still don't have any clue as to it.

[UnrealSeal]

wall incoming

Because I'm simply a weaker town player. I lurk a lot and only really start talking when a hot topic comes up or someone says something I think is really scummy, that's a really easy case for scum to push, generally really safe to make, and at the very least is very divisive and turns attention away from scum. As to why other people didn't get framed, that goes deeply into WIFOM territory.

As to why Gus wasn't shot at, I don't know. I don't know the night actions, it's possible two protectives exist and Gus was actually the shot that night but was saved (doubtful), maybe scum was worried about JOAT having additional powers he didn't claim, I can't say, and trying to speculate on why scum didn't shoot Gus is a really WIFOMy endeavor that I don't think will lead to much.

This is the point about the wagon on me that I've been trying to make though; it requires a through understanding of what happened during the night, something we as town simply don't have.

Meanwhile, you have made a post that in most regards points to you playing against Town's wincon and keeping your options open to lynch whoever. Your play after it definitely is not impressive either with 1431 and 1432 essentially boiling down to "hey here's some quotes, make a case against this guy for me lol."

I ask to town which case is more compelling, the one that leans on dayplay which we can look at and say for sure "They did that, and we can probably extrapolate why they did that" or the case that relies on nightplay were we have very little idea of what happened except that no one die and Hiraki was targeted for a kill (and not even that, as we still don't know what other roles are in the game or even if Gus's claim is true, even if I am inclined to believe Gus on this one)

[UnrealSeal]

Also that, the cases on Akarin have been garbage at best

You want to actually put some substance behind your posts instead of just saying shit with no backing?

[UnrealSeal]

are we honestly just dicking around until we find 2 replacements and decide on who to lynch??

need 7 people for a lynch and currently it's split with only a 1 vote difference. Outside of the two people who need replacement, I think (don't know, no VC in a while) only Locke is voting someone other than me or Akarin, and Locke's vote is not enough to lynch either wagon

Unless people jump ship from one wagon to the other or something really big happens, then yeah we're pretty much just waiting on replacements and seeing what they say/vote.

[UnrealSeal]

No.

I will do everything within my power to make sure this day ends with Akarin's lynch.

1344 is far and away the single worst post made this entire game, literally claiming that they're perfectly fine with a mislynch on a claimed PR with investigative powers. I'm not letting someone get away with a post that irrevocably awful and scummy. Unless there's a Vig in this game who's going to Vig her tonight, I'm not comfortable switching to anybody else unless they literally claim scum.

I fully realize this is tunneling and I don't care really.

Besides, Akarin's flip gives an associative read on Locke either clearing him or damning him, since Akarin did defend Locke in an earlier post (1300).

[UnrealSeal]

@mod V/LA due to injury

apologies

will try and monitor thread when possible, probably be back Friday or so.

[UnrealSeal]

goddammit the instant I go on V/LA to recover is the instant I get put to L-1

Well claim time, so buckle down gents.

I am a

Mason Even-Night Rolecop

. My Mason partner is

Krazy, who is a Mason 3-Shot Bulletproof

which is why I'm not exactly hung up about revealing him. Still kind of stings but eh.

I was planning on investigating Garmr tonight in order to confirm his alignment but that plan's probably shot to hell now since I've probably got a target on my back now.

So this is probably my last post of the game or at least till I'm off V/LA.

I leave everything to Krazy and his capable hands, I'm sure he'll steer this town to victory. Please listen to him.

And finally,

Lynch Akarin.