Zendo (adapted for the forum) -- Game 4 (BNLP's) running!

For completed/abandoned Mish Mash Games.
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Zendo (adapted for the forum) -- Game 4 (BNLP's) running!

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:13 am

Post by 2 718281828459 »

Welcome to Zendo, the inductive logic game! Well, at least, a form of Zendo created for this forum.
Note that we are playing slightly differently from https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6830/zendo because forum play is better done asynchronously (i.e. not turn-based).

Game 4, run by BulletNLynchproof: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=77047


Note

Starting with game 3, all games will be run in Frogstar World B. This allows multiple games to be run simultaneously and clears up the main thread for organization and general discussion.

Overview

In this game, you will be trying to figure out a
secret pattern
before anyone else does. You will ask if specific strings follow the pattern and earn guessing points to try to figure out the final rule. Only one can win!
(Instead of structures of blocks, this game will use strings of letters restricted to the letters "A", "B", "C", and "D". (E.g. ABAC, A, AAAAA, BDDC, etc.) Maximum length is 10. I considered other options but decided to keep it simple for this one.)

Gameplay

This game will be played
asynchronously
, in contrast to the original which is played in turns.
At any time*, you may post one string of 1-10 letters that contains only the letters "A", "B", "C", and "D". (Case is irrelevant, but please be consistent.) You will also write either
Tell
or
Quiz
.
If you write
Tell
, then when I come online, I will indicate whether your string
does
or
does not
follow the pattern.
If you write
Quiz
, then ALL players, including yourself, will have 48 hours to
guess
whether your string follows the rule or not. Send a PM to me, and when 48 hours have elapsed, I will reveal every player's guess and the truth. Everyone who was correct receives
1 guessing point
.

Also you may at any point* submit a Final Guess to attempt to guess the pattern.
This costs
1 guessing point
. Post
publicly
what you believe the secret rule to be.
If you are not completely correct, then I will post a counter-example, which will either be (1) a string that follows your pattern but not mine, or (2) a string that follows mine but not yours. (In other words, a string that our rules would mark differently.)
If you are completely correct (and you were the first to be such), then you win. Note that equivalent rules stated differently still count. (E.g. "It must be completely composed of A's and C's" is a correct guess for "There are no B's").
I reserve the right to reject a Final Guess if it is vague ("There must be a C" -- at least one, or exactly one?) or if it is clearly a troll guess ("If [insert unsolved math problem here] is true then the string must have an A, otherwise it must have a B"). If it is an honest mistake, then you will not lose a guessing point.

(Just to be super clear, Final Guesses are about the entire rule, and
cost
1 GP, whereas Quiz guesses are about one particular string, and may or may not
earn
you 1 GP.)

*Except for...
Rate Limiting

You may not submit two strings within the span of 24 hours, nor can you submit a Final Guess within 24 hours of submitting a string or another Final Guess.
(Yes, you may submit strings while you wait on a Quiz to complete.)

Activity

You can join simply by posting strings and exit simply by stopping. The only rule on this is that you cannot make a Final Guess if you have not submitted a string in the last five days. (This gives people advance warning if you decide to come back, so you cannot just win the game out of nowhere.)

Other Rules

Reserved colors:
Red, for strings that do not follow the rule
;
Green, for strings that do
; and
Blue, for guessing points
.
No outside discussion if the game is ongoing.
Follow all site rules. You know that.
You
can
discuss the game
in
side the thread, although given that the game is competitive, you may not want to.

Here are some rules that I must follow:
> The order of the letters in the string may or may not be important.
> The rule depends ONLY on the string. Strings are NOT case-sensitive. Also, it does not depend on the time or order of posts, the user that posted it, whether you chose quiz or tell, or anything else outside of the string itself. (Those troll find-the-rule games are great, but not what I am doing here.)
> I will, at the start, post one string that follows the rule and one that does not.

Example GameHere is an example of a complete game. It is very long, so it has been spoilerified. The rule is at the end. The mod repeats the players' Final Guesses purely out of clarity; their guesses were posted publicly.
Spoiler: Game
Player 1 posts "CBC, Tell".
Player 2 posts "AAA, Tell".
Moderator posts: "CBC is red. AAA is green."
Player 3 posts "CCC, Quiz".
All players PM the mod their guesses. 1 sends Yes, and 2 and 3 send No.
Player 2 posts "B, Tell".
Moderator posts:
> B is red. CCC is red.
> CCC: Player 1 was incorrect. Player 2 and Player 3 were correct, they each receive
1 guessing point
!
Player 3 posts "AC, Tell".
Moderator posts: "A is green."
Player 3 posts a Final Guess: "There must be at least one A."
Moderator posts:
> Player 3's guess, "There must be at least one A", is incorrect.
> AB is red, but the guess would mark it green.
Player 1 posts: "AABB, Tell".
Moderator posts: "AABB is red."
Player 3 posts: "ABCB, Tell".
Player 2 posts: "ACCC, Quiz". 1 and 3 guess Yes, 2 guesses No.
Moderator posts:
> ABCB is red. ACCC is green.
> ACCC: Player 2 was incorrect. Players 1 and 3 were correct, they each receive
1 guessing point
!
Everyone has 1 GP.

Player 2 posts a Final Guess: "There must be at least one A, and no B's."
Moderator posts:
> Player 2's guess, "There must be at least one A, and no B's", is incorrect.
> AAABBC is green, but the guess would mark it red.
Player 2 leaves the game.
Player 1 posts: "AAB, Quiz". Both players predict No.
Player 4 joins the game and predicts No.
Moderator posts:
> AAB is green.
> AAB: All players were incorrect.
Player 1 posts a Final Guess. (It ends up being correct. I am not writing it here in case you want to figure out the rule for yourself.)
Morderator posts:
> Player 1's guess, [REDACTED], is CORRECT!
> Congratulations, you won!


Spoiler: Rule
There must be strictly more A's than B's.
(This ended up being one of those rules where the order of the letters did not matter. However, in general, you do not know that.
Last edited by 2 718281828459 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (isolation #1) » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:14 am

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Game 2 -- Solved! Congratulations BulletNLynchproof!

Spoiler: Table of Knowledge
Green
Red
A
B
C
AC
CD
ABC
BAD
DCB
ACBA
ABCD
DCBA
ABCDCBA
DD
BAD
ABBC
DCBBA
AABBCC
ABCDABCD

Game 2 Start Post: viewtopic.php?p=10321804#p10321804

Spoiler: Rule
The string is green iff there is no substring X that appears more than once consecutively. (Examples: DCBBA (B), ABCDABCD (ABCD), and ACBCBD (CB) are red.)


Game 1 -- Solved! Congratulations Implosion!

Spoiler: Table of Knowledge
YES
NO
AB
ABAB
ABBA
ACBB
BBCC
CACA
AAACCC
ABCBAB
CBBCCB
CCCAAA
AAABCCCC
AABBCCCC
ABBBBBAAAA
A
C
BBB
CBA
ACBBB
CCCAA
AAACCCBBB
CACCCAAABB

Spoiler: Rule
There must be one letter that appears exactly half of the time. Put another way, the frequency of one letter must exactly equal the sum of the other two.
Last edited by 2 718281828459 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:02 am, edited 22 times in total.
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Post Post #3 (isolation #2) » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:43 am

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CCCAAA
:
YES
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Post Post #5 (isolation #3) » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 am

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CCCAA:
NO

Whoops, I made a mistake. CCCAA is a NO, not a yes.
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Post Post #9 (isolation #4) » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:06 pm

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BBB and A are both
NO
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Post Post #14 (isolation #5) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:32 am

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In post 12, Irrelephant11 wrote:What are guessing points for?
You have to use one in order to make a Final Guess and try to win the game.
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Post Post #15 (isolation #6) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:35 am

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CACCCAAABB is
NO

BBCC is
YES

CBA is
NO
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Post Post #17 (isolation #7) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:54 am

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AAACCCBBB is
NO
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Post Post #20 (isolation #8) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:19 am

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In post 18, BNL wrote:Can we final guess more than once if we have the GP to do so?
Yes.

ABBA is
YES
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Post Post #22 (isolation #9) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:00 am

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Eh, I think we need a quiz going, so I will allow it for this time.

Everyone (including skitter30) please send me a PM of whether you think
CBBCCB
follows my rule or not.

(expired on 2018-07-15 14:00:02)
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Post Post #24 (isolation #10) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:07 am

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CACA is
YES
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Post Post #25 (isolation #11) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 am

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Hmmm... I am wondering if I should simply edit my responses into each Tell post...
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Post Post #29 (isolation #12) » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:21 am

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ABBBBBAAAA is
YES

ACBB is
YES

AABBCC is a
QUIZ
-- time remaining: (expired on 2018-07-16 12:58:21)
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Post Post #30 (isolation #13) » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:26 am

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I just want to make it super clear that EVERYONE may answer a quiz, including the one who posted the quiz.
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Post Post #36 (isolation #14) » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:19 am

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AABBCCCC is
YES

ABAB is
YES

ABCBAB is
YES
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Post Post #40 (isolation #15) » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:41 am

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Quiz #1, CBBCCB, has expired

The answer is
YES

  • mallowgeno
    answered
    NO
  • skitter30
    answered
    YES
  • implosion
    answered
    YES
  • Irrelephant11
    answered
    YES
  • Ircher
    answered
    YES
  • Inferno390
    answered
    YES
  • NotAJumbleOfNumbers
    answered
    YES
  • BulletNLynchproof
    answered
    YES
  • StrangerCoug
    answered
    YES
Eight players have received
one guessing point
each.
Last edited by 2 718281828459 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #41 (isolation #16) » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:47 am

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In post 38, NotAJumbleOfNumbers wrote:AAABCCCC TELL
In post 39, Inferno390 wrote:AAACCC Tell
Both are
YES
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Post Post #46 (isolation #17) » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:30 pm

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In post 43, implosion wrote:
Final guess:

Spoiler:
there is at least one letter (a, b, or c) that makes up exactly half of the letters of the string.
Your guess is correct! You win!!

In post 44, skitter30 wrote:mine was kinda the inverse:

Spoiler: final guess
the letter that appears most frequently must be double the sum of all other letters combined. ie if A appears most frequently A = 2(B + C)

if i didn't explain that well let me know
Your guess is incorrect. AAAABB would be marked as a yes by your guess, but it is actually
NO
.

(Note that those two are different:
Spoiler: reason
the first one means some letter has exactly 1/2 of the time, while the second means one letter appears 2/3 of the time. They are incompatible. To put it another way, my rule requires A = B + C or similar, not A = 2(B+C).)


Congratulations implosion
!

I think I will start another game, if people are interested. (Probably a harder rule, though!)
(Although, if someone else wants to mod, they
probably
should start their own thread, and make sure to choose a rule that does not fit with the initial clues from mine.)

Oh, and ACBBB is a
NO
, for those of you who want to figure out the rule for yourself before reading the spoilers.
Last edited by 2 718281828459 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #47 (isolation #18) » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:34 pm

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In post 42, Ircher wrote:ACBBB Quiz

Edit: Also, am I allowed to still submit a String/Final Guess within 24 hours of posting this quiz, or do I have to wait?
You would have had to wait. However, I am open to suggestions if someone believes that the rules should be changed for game 2.
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Post Post #55 (isolation #19) » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:30 pm

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Although, 24 hours can be a bit short. I was thinking maybe 36, although that would drastically change the amount of quizzes that I could resolve at or near the actual deadline.

I thought the game would take a lot longer, though, and not attract as many players.

Proposed Rule Patches

1. Quiz time limit is 30 hours.
2. Delay between actions is 12 hours.
3. The letter "D" is now permitted. There were 88,572 possible strings, (3^11 - 1)/2, but now there are 1,398,101 possibilities, (4^11 - 1)/3.
4. Tell responses will be edited directly into the post using red or green. No faking allowed, although if you are skeptical you can always check the Table of Knowledge.
(Speaking of that, should I post the ToK in the first post or post new ones approximately every page, similar to vote counts in mafia?)
5. I am using the words "green" and "red", rather than "yes" and "no". A guess of the form "The string must ..." will be parsed as "A string is green iff it ...".

I am going to start the next game tomorrow, although all of these patches can be easily fixed even shortly after game start, so if you disagree with any of these, let me know. (Except patch 3, which I am not changing after the game starts.)
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Post Post #58 (isolation #20) » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:06 am

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Game Two has started!

Initial strings:
ABCD is green
;
ABBC is red
.

Table of knowledge: viewtopic.php?p=10313394#p10313394

Rule Patches:
1. Quiz time limit is
30 hours
, not 48.
2. Cooldown after submitting a string is
16 hours
, not 24.
3. The letter D is now allowed.
4. Tell and quiz responses will be edited directly into the post.
5. The words "green" and "red" will be used rather than "yes" and "no". A guess of the form "The string must ..." will be parsed as "A string is green iff it ...".

Begin!
Last edited by 2 718281828459 on Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #21) » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:17 pm

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In post 72, NotAJumbleOfNumbers wrote:can we use symbols next time?
I will consider it. So, like, !!@# would follow a rule, and !!##% would not? (just adapting the game 1 rule)

Reply to your current signature: When a game does not let you watch the AI battle itself, perhaps that is because it uses a strategy that will lead to boring mirror image play.
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Post Post #76 (isolation #22) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 am

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Also, when it comes to answering quizzes, please say specifically and directly which quiz you answer. I get quite a few "the currently active quiz is a red" or "the second quiz is a green". I would like if you could state exactly which string you are answering, like "C is green".
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Post Post #87 (isolation #23) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:09 pm

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In post 86, James Brafin wrote:Actually, @MOD
Could I get a bump on that quiz please? I have a final guess and the quiz won’t roll over until thirty minutes after my bedtime... I know it’s asking a lot, but it would be awesome.
I am not going to change the quiz deadline, but if you want, PM me a Final Guess and if your quiz answer is correct I will post the guess with it.

New Rule: You may "call dibs" on your OWN quizzes (once per quiz). PM me a Final Guess, and I will treat it as though you made the guess immediately after the quiz is resolved.
You may also do a conditional guess
, like "If ___ is green then guess [rule 1], otherwise, guess [rule 2]".
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Post Post #89 (isolation #24) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:27 pm

Post by 2 718281828459 »

There are some quizzes ending in about two hours that I will not be able to update on time. I will get to them when I can.

DCB
is
GREEN
  • Inferno390: Green
  • James Brafin: Green
  • OkaPoka: Green
  • skitter30: Green
  • StrangerCoug: Green
  • BulletNLynchproof: Green
  • mallowgeno: Green
  • NotAJumbleOfNumbers: Green
  • Irrelephant11: Green
  • Ircher: Green
Updates to the guessing point list will happen later. As of now, everyone listed except for James Brafin has
1 GP
.

James Brafin
has chosen to guess:
Spoiler: Guess
The string is red iff some letter is within two spaces of another of the same letter.
Example: ABCDCBA is red, because the two C's are only two spaces apart.

However, that guess is
wrong
.
ABCDCBA
would be marked red by the guess, but is actually
green
.
Table of Knowledge will be updated later.
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Post Post #92 (isolation #25) » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:57 am

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Oh come on, I thought that would be a lot harder! Yes, BulletNLynchproof, you are correct, you win!

Actually, thank you for winning. Those quizzes would have been a nightmare to do. I will add them to the Table of Knowledge, though, for future readers.
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Post Post #95 (isolation #26) » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:28 am

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I guess, there could possibly be a round 3, if you want...

I need harder rules, that is the problem.

Does anyone else want to create their own rule? (I like the idea of using the symbols !@#$%^&*() or the emoticons like
Spoiler: these
:shifty: :cop: :doc: :dead: :facepalm: :yawn: :nerd: :?: :!: :idea: :up: :right: :down: :left:


Wait... those last seven look like we could just have the game only use them...?)

Hmmm, I wonder what you guys want for the next round...
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Post Post #99 (isolation #27) » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:59 am

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Well, it would be winner's choice, so BulletNLynchproof could either make a rule, or choose someone else to do it (if they want to).

Making a new thread in Frogstar World B for each game might actually be a good idea.
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Post Post #101 (isolation #28) » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:47 am

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Oh true...

The only reason I want to use FWB is that this way whoever wants to create the rule can also have mod rights over their thread.
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Post Post #103 (isolation #29) » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:26 am

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Then go to Frogstar World B and make it
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Post Post #104 (isolation #30) » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:29 am

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If no one posts a game in the next (expired on 2018-07-28 11:29:03) then I think I will post my own game.
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Post Post #106 (isolation #31) » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:51 pm

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And I said "I think" I will post my own game.

Perhaps tomorrow.
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Post Post #107 (isolation #32) » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:15 am

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New Game Started

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=76979

I used the shift-number symbols.
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Post Post #108 (isolation #33) » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:16 am

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OK, clearly I am incapable of creating rules that can survive for more than like a week. Perhaps someone else (maybe BNLP, who has I think won two games?) should make their own thread (in FWB) and try.
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Post Post #111 (isolation #34) » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:49 am

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We are in need of some players for Zendo Game 4 (link above)
!
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