Open 733: Grey Flag (Complete)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Hello!

VOTE: ofrhz

(How do you pronounce your name, ofrhz?)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I guess I'll pronounce ofrhz as ['o.vr̩^ɣz]. Thanks for not being helpful...

@Ircher: there are actually three scum in this game.

re:NMPL: I see the points pro & contra, but I don't think it's a worthwhile discussion. I think it's worth pointing out, though, that he's provided so far uncharacteristically much content. Is he always this defensive when he gets pushed?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@Ircher: there are actually three scum in this game.

Do you think this was a real slip

I pretty sure it wasn't deliberate. I don't know how it's alignment indicative if it is that at all.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Now I'm getting paranoid about you, Irch, because I'm already paranoid about TW.

Anyhow, what do you all think about NM being active? 51 in particular is interesting. I don't agree with his point, but I think it was serious, so that makes it strictly game-related. All of this was sparked by a push on NM.
VOTE: Not_Mafia
(not policy)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Now I'm getting paranoid about you, Irch, because I'm already paranoid about TW.

Anyhow, what do you all think about NM being active? 51 in particular is interesting. I don't agree with his point, but I think it was serious, so that makes it strictly game-related. All of this was sparked by a push on NM.
VOTE: Not_Mafia
(not policy)

Why are you paranoid of The Worst and I?

That aside, I think Not_Mafia being active is more likely a sign that he is town than that he is scum. I am not in favor of lynching him at the moment.

I don't like the way TW's defending NM. He "defended" you in a similar tone, & #83 & #84 just don't mesh well tonally for me. :/

Anyhow, what do you all think about NM being active? 51 in particular is interesting. I don't agree with his point, but I think it was serious, so that makes it strictly game-related. All of this was sparked by a push on NM.
VOTE: Not_Mafia
(not policy)

Why is NM scum for this tho

It's different than what I've seen from town!NM so far.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

double shadethrow

It was actually in my post before that.

why does my defence of NM irk you? do you think it's more likely to come from scum!me or town!me in this situation?

It's mostly tonality, but rereading it there's also another big problem, namely that it's BS. It doesn't matter what you can do with NM in the late game because this setup is designed to end the game before the classic late-game scenario arises. (re: 2nd qn: yeah, obviously...)
what about NM's play here is different from your experiences and why does it come from scum!NM?[/quote]
This is my 3rd game he replaced in in a row. In the two previous ones his activity was markedly different, Keep in mind that in the 1st one his slot was my primary scumread, so inactivity should also apply under pressure. It's different from what I've seen, & what I've seen is town, so that suggests now he's scum.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Broke quote tag, sorry. :$

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@TW: Your main point was that NM can be generally sorted in the late game. Here we have no late game. This game ends at five people at the latest.
Tonality is a thing, I've never even met anyone who denied it. Your posts make me feel a bit uneasy.
I have nothing to indicate you're scum together aside from individual scumminess. I also have nothing against it.
re: postcount: NM's being defensive, he wants to alter the flow of the game. That's what I haven't seen from him. By activity I mean genuine activity, so active lurking doesn't count.
(All of the above was either already there or heavily implied in my previous posts. Maybe you should brush up on your academics.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

late-game is clearly contextual and revolves around the fact we'll have flips and will have spent weeks putting up with each other
not late-game as in 3p

maybe you should brush up on yours

Sure, we're going to play this game for a certain amount of time, & that period of time is going to have a last third, when we'll also presumably have some flips & previous votes. I didn't specify that originally, but I guess for your sake, I can explain the obvious. Regardless, in this setup we won't have a classical late-game. As on the last day a majority of the players is guaranteed to be alive. What's true for late games in general isn't necessarily true here because the last one or two days will have elements of a usual mid- or late mid-game.

It truly baffles me how this point (supposedly) doesn't get through to you. When I originally made it, I explicitly used the word "classical."

Those two games are my two lasts games, which are literally the only two game threads where I've posted. I don't intend to start a new game before finishing this one, so I reckon you can find them easily enough, I'd rather not bother.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Then you'll get lynched a lot and something tells me you'll flip mafia more often than not simply by the nature of the slip

1. What do you like about NM's point? 2. What do you mean by the quoted part? Like, do you think Quick rolls scum more often than other players because of his attitude?

not really sure if Gosrir+Quick as buddies pile onto a policy wagon right off the bat sooo

FWIW, I'm townreading Quick. (Must be a shocker for you! )

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@TW: The NMPL thing is NAI, but his reaction to the "inconsistency" conundrum is town. He didn't get fixated on the apparent inconsistency, but tried to move the game forward in a meaningful way(53.)

@SDD: I already have, & what you said was stupid. I wanted to give you benefit of the doubt by offering you a chance to elaborate. But then you confirm, right?: You think inconsistency is a scumtell, & Quick is more likely to roll scum for some reason. Got it, thanks.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@Gosrir what exactly is the difference between town!NM and scum!NM?

As I've said before, I don't know NM's scumplay, as I haven't seen it. I'm voting him because his play is different than the townplay I've seen. He was town in the RC crybaby game (although I don't know how often that happens) & in mini normal 2016. In the former you played, too.

but tried to move the game forward in a meaningful way(53.)

explain it like I'm 12 please

Alright, kiddo. Quick dubbed the "turnt" inconsistency line, & asked the deadass question, namely "what's scummy?". That's ode gucci town PoV, fam. Radical!

(If you cannot keep up with the age group, we can go back to me explaining things to you like you're 5.)
(Actually, it took too "bare" google searches to make this post for me to bother again.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I should probably reset myself with this game because I feel stuck.

A few quick thoughts: I think him pushing me if he's scum wouldn't be a good idea because it'd raise questions like in TW's #230. At this stage there's no way he gets lynched before me, so he could've townread me with little risk. Now, it's easier to notice after the fact, but one of his buddies surely would've pointed it out if they'd noticed. So they didn't notice either because of inactivity or inexperience. Point is: Quick can be scum only with Saudade & Brandi. (If you assume I'm town, I guess.)

A few NM thoughts: I should've meta'd him already, I'll get down to that. Just to make it clearer, his start feels weird to me, but it's #31 onwards that makes me worried, save for #128.

I feel like Saudade is the kind of player who could do a daytalk slip of some kind. I'll reread him looking for such. (There's daytalk, btw, keep that in mind.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I should probably reset myself with this game because I feel stuck.

A few quick thoughts: I think him pushing me if he's scum wouldn't be a good idea because it'd raise questions like in TW's #230. At this stage there's no way he gets lynched before me, so he could've townread me with little risk. Now, it's easier to notice after the fact, but one of his buddies surely would've pointed it out if they'd noticed. So they didn't notice either because of inactivity or inexperience. Point is: Quick can be scum only with Saudade & Brandi. (If you assume I'm town, I guess.)

So uh, do you think quick is town or scum?

Town, but I realise some/many don't agree with me.

I feel like Saudade is the kind of player who could do a daytalk slip of some kind.

I'll reread him looking for such. (There's daytalk, btw, keep that in mind.)

Why do you think this? And why did you bring it up

He looks careless & prone to panic. Now I intend to read his ISO through this lens, but I hoped someone else would do it for me because I'm lazy.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I'm literally just coasting right now, but I intend to give it a nice read-through & proper content after I my sleep & morning run (so like after 12 hours?)

Anyway, Quick is conftown, I guess.

BTW, considering potential scumbuddies is the correct strategy here, IMO.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Leaning scum on Ircher

Not a huge fan of cj’s vote on quick while simultaneously ignoring the wagon on gosrir, although I’m not sure if that last part is ai for cj

Dont really have any thoughts on Skygazer

Quick looks bad on a superficial level, but I think it’s coming from town based on some convoluted logic that goes something like “scum quick would probably not pick TW of all people as the counterwagon to gosrir”

I more or less agreed with Loafers on this one, although I have second thoughts about Ircher now, after "meta"-ing NM. (& my reasons were different, but w/e.)

Anyhow, I've "meta"-d NM, which means that I looked for a finished game of his in which he was scum, then a game before that in which he was town. Enter Open 808 & Open 725. In the former he gets down to the nitty-gritty of the game, pieces of content after pieces of content. In the former he's bouncy & intangible, the way I remember him from the two games I played with him previously. He's more like the former now, ie. more like when he was scum.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I explained my Quick townread before. I haven't posted that much, you should have no problem finding it. Conftown might be a bit strong, but I see no point in considering him being scum right now.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@Loafers: People will complain about his play in every game, so that by itself means little. But my point isn't about him explaining things. I want to make this clear: I'm not trying to punish NM for playing good (or better.) I might be explaining it in the wrong way. My point is observing if NM's having only social interactions or in-game interactions as well.

In Normal 2016 (he was a mason) he quoted a book when asked about whether he can make long posts. This is a fine joke, but it has little consequence to the game itself. He told Garmr (his top scumread, communicated through a naked vote & maybe calling him scum with no further elaboration) that he'd vote his masonbuddy if Garmr did so (they hadn't claimed yet.) Garmr voted, NM voted, but even though it resulted in a vote, it's pretty clear it didn't bring anything substantial to the game. I could go into Open 725, but I'm less familiar with that game.

In Micro 808 (not Open, sorry, typo, I guess) there are plenty of instances of NM having in-game interactions. There's #128, #215, #292, #304, & I'm too lazy to list all of them. It's difficult to verbalise: he stays in contact, I guess, that could be a good term too.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I'm still having a hard time understanding why you're scumreading NM. I don't get why that meta you're pointing out suggests he's scum this game.

I've been on the road pretty much the whole day (was supposed to get here about four hours earlier, but we got into a number of traffic jams.) I'll elaborate on or rephrase the case tomorrow, but to get this down until then: so you do see the difference between the two games I've linked, & see how it lines up with the lynchpin game we played?

@gosrir, elaborate on some of your other scumreads?

The world is a vortex where every piece of Danish pastry has apricots in it & I have no other proper scumread other than the one. i think if NM is town, then Ircher might be scum because his vote on Quick had the this-wagon-looks-to-be-the-shit-but-I-have-no-idea-what-it's-about feel, but tbf,

I

have no idea what it's about either.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@CJ: Then you don't see the difference I'm talking about. (So the correct answer is "no." It must be a dialect thing you writing "yeah.")
In the posts to which I linked in my #409 NM takes stances & communicates opinions relevant to the game state in Micro 808. Do you see that? He doesn't do that in Open 725. Do you see that?

re:-lynch: If I'm right & Quick flips town, we should lynch TW. I've been his (top?) scumread from the very start, but he keeps hammering other people, even though I've been very much lynchable. On D3, based on his current posts & 380 the target will be Ircher, then I'd be the final one, so he could have a well set up mislynch. So if Quick's town, then TW's likely scum (& if TW's likely scum, then Ircher's town.) (OTOH, if Quick's scum, TW's town for sure.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I think it's pretty obvious that I'm town & TW is scum at this point. I've already explained on this very page (although I didn't realise at the time that today would be lylo), but I'm not sure I want to be the one who takes the blame if I'm wrong. TW & Loafers maybe? I'm happy with Ircher being town, I think.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

VOTE: the worst

I think it's fairly obvious. I can only reiterate myself: I've been TW's most prominent scumread since the very beginning of D1, yet he decided to hammer two other players in a row. That's anything but town.
BTW, neither the Saudade nor the Quick wagon was inevitable. Saudade might could've been sorted without him defending himself (it's not like NM's been defending himself, & people seem to be convinced he's town. À propos, @CJ: we're still doing the walking-you-through-the-NM-case-like-you-were-the-toddler-you-are routine, so answer my previous question.) Anyhow, I'm not salty about his lynch because he wouldn't have added anything useful anyway. But after his flip, Quick was essentially conftown.

is a scumslip. From a 3rd player's perspective there are two scenario's either I'm a primed mislynch primed by TW, or I'm not a primed mislynch at all. So TW's considering the former case is just lip service & dishonest. In [post]474 he warns me there aren't any more mislynches left. Well, yeah, no need telling me, as I haven't mislynched anyone in this game. Then he also tells me that my case on him is bad, as if he weren't the only person who had no say in that. These are attempts at trying to misdirect us from the fact that he's hammered two players so far instead of pushing his primary scumread.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Formatting error The two posts I'm talking about are 471 & 474.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Since there hasn't been a quickhammer on me yet, it's clear (to me) that the scumteam is TW, Loafers & CJ. I don't want to go into the details about all the possibilities from other players' PoV, but the bottom line is that today's lynch is either TW or me.

First of all, CJ's reaction to the NM is case hilarious. Yes, I wanted to justify an NM lynch, what else could've been my intention? I was presenting a case, presenting a case is justifying a lynch. Is Loafers's reason that I use letters in my posts?

In 527 TW blatantly lies that I've been tunnelling him.
Saudade was the arrogant newbie who thinks he's got some divine theory knowledge. It's a player trope, so even if there isn't proper meta about Saudade on-hand, we all still probably have enough experience with the type. I played a few games with Wake88 before my hiatus (not linking) in his early days, so I know the patterns to a degree.
I don't see how Saudade getting bored is supposed to do anything with his alignment.

Many people seem to be confused about my read on Quick, even though I put it in relatively clear terms. I was townreading him before the Saudade lynch, but that's irrelevant here. Here's what's relevant: Quick was voting me on D1, which was iirc the last major push on me that day (or if not, then one of them.) At this point everyone in the game was kind of okay with lynching me, which is a towntell on me to a certain degree. So let's go through these events assuming Quick is scum. Quick & I were the major lynch candidates at the time, so he wouldn't have made a move without checking with his buddies via daytalk. Say he doesn't notice the problem with him pushing me: that means his buddies didn't tell him either because they didn't notice or because they couldn't answer, weren't around. So the only possible scumteam with Quick in it is {Quick, Saudade Brandi (replaced by Skygazer)}. Saudade is town. So Quick must be town because scum!Quick couldn't have enough buddies. I want to reiterate this: nothing in this paragraph is new. I've already posted this before.
(Tomorrow I'll teach you how to breath through your noses. Class is over.)

PEDIT: Woh, Ircher, not cool. I'm town.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Well, congrats. Frankly, it feels like I walked right into it.

@Loafers: the secret is that at least one of the nostrils should be clean. If both are blocked, it won't work. Then close your mouth. Close your mouth, that's the trick right there. Now try to expand your lungs, & after the expansion let the air rush out. Let me know if you have problems at any of the steps.