Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Shoshin]

You said, "town can easily change their reads," not "Math can easily change his reads."

[Shoshin]

What changed your mind?

What did you learn?

[Shoshin]

Okay, I understood everything except for mixing up piling with removal. My opinion on this is the same as what I posted previously.

Yes, the removal point is all I was referring to. My point is that Taly was trying to get people to question lynching Creature.

[Shoshin]

I went looking for one. Found this from a ccouple years ago: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=69019

The game is here: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=68901

I skimmed the chat and game but don't think it's very telling because of age. But either way, he hasn't done anything this game outside his capability as scum.

[Shoshin]

Have you seen any of his town games?

[Shoshin]

Just gonna pop in and say Rando's meta is NAI here. he's scum with wisdom by gamestate, or town.

He's also scum via behaviors. You disagree with my case?

[Shoshin]

can you show me like what part of my d1 posting is making you confused?

You said Ank was "badtown" on D1. But more recently (like today or yesterday), you said she's a "crazy strong town player." The truth is neither: she's hit or miss, and this game she was miss. I'd like to know why you said she was "badtown" on D1, and then later said she was "crazy strong town." What changed?

I'd also like to know why you townread Sajj on D1, why you refused to answer my question about her, why you said you were intentionally obscuring your read to do something, and what it was you were doing.

[Shoshin]

@the worst

I'd also like to know why you voted Sajj after I pointed out exactly why she was town. Like, what's going through your head there?

[Shoshin]

Last set of questions, the worst:

Why would you call me "scum with a town role PM" when you'd know that my reads have been very good this game? Like, if you assume I'm town and Wisdom/Random are scum, you'd have to admit that I had the best reads in this game (defended against both mislynches, called Creature/Random on D2, said Chick was plausible partner with Random, and called Wisdom on D4).

You'd also know that I'm the reason that Nancy (confirmed town) is living all the way to LYLO, an extremely pro-town result. To me, it feels like you're being disingenuous about my what you think of my play, and that you're doing it to intensely buddy Nancy in preparation for LYLO between us three.

You said that players much better than me have used their bodyguard to sacrifice their lives for badtown. Can you give an example? If you just pull any example of a bodyguard, I'm lynching you. The example has to be from a player who is actually much better than me (they exist, but I doubt that you actually have seen them use bodyguard in the way you claim they have).

Why are you calling me toxic when I haven't said anything worse than other players in this game (I can find posts from you with language just as insulting as mine, as well as posts from players like Wisdom, among others, all of which is quite strong)?

Why are you defending Nancy so strongly while ignoring all the times she's insulted me (while I don't personally hold it against her, Nancy used some very strong language towards me, so it's odd that you call me bad and toxic while pretending that she's 100% innocent of anything)?

(Nancy, don't take this offensively, I'm asking some questions about what happened earlier because I'm concerned that the worst is manipulating the situation to buddy you and secure my mislynch).

[Shoshin]

I already unvoted, Nancy.

Again, my fear is that you are going to just mislynch me tomorrow. So I'd rather be 100% certain.

On the bright side, you can now rest easy that I'm not scum partnered with the worst.

[Shoshin]

That isn’t possible if I am the NK and you save me, is it?

That’s why I voted Wisdom but if there are two scum in the game, who do you think they are?

If we mislynch today, I'll be on you. The problem is that scum won't kill you because they want to mislynch me.

The fact that I didn't hammer Wisdom or the worst tells you that I'm not partnered with either. So you're free to vote Wisdom without risk. From your perspective, it's the right move at this point.

Unlike you, I don't have the luxury of mislynching today. You want to mislynch me. the worst wants to mislynch me. Random wants to mislynch me. So from my perspective, if Wisdom's not scum, I need to make that call today or town's going to lose.

I'm playing today as if it's 3-way LYLO between myself, the worst, and Wisdom, because from my point of view, that's what this game turns on.

[Shoshin]

I don't want to insult you, Nancy. But you're assuming scum will kill you when their #1 goal is actually leaving me alive, not killing you.

[Shoshin]

the worst is not partnered with Wisdom or Random or me. That's been established at this point.

The only question left to decide is whether it's Wisdom/Random or solo the worst.

[Shoshin]

the worst, the questions I asked are relevant to your alignment. If you don't answer them, I'll take it as an admission of guilt.

[Shoshin]

I don't want to insult you, Nancy. But you're assuming scum will kill you when their #1 goal is actually leaving me alive, not killing you.

Well, if you prove them wrong by saving me from the NK, then they can’t obviously.

Again, I'll be on you. When neither of us die, are you going to finally realize I'm town or mislynch me? My guess is you're going to mislynch me. I don't trust you to make the right call, especially not after you mislynched Sajj. So I need to make sure I choose right today.

[Shoshin]

@the worst

I'd also like to know why you voted Sajj after I pointed out exactly why she was town. Like, what's going through your head there?

I mean I really wasn't townreading you at that point so your posting didn't have a major impact on me :\

that phase ended a lot sooner than I would have liked it to. there were a few things about Sajj that weren't really stacking up as scum and by the time I came around on it it was too late.

this shit happens.

Wisdom thought I was scum yet agreed with my points. I don't see your belief about my alignment has to do with evaluating Sajj's alignment or the points I'm bringing up.

Compared with Wisdom, this is a real problem for me. I also don't like that you're not being forthcoming to the questions I'm asking.

[Shoshin]

Why would the worst gladiate to save you if he wanted to mislynch you.

Assume for a moment that the worst is solo scum.

He's presented with the option of mislynching me today, having me flip town, and then having to deal with Wisdom and Random at LYLO. Wisdom and Random both said they'd lynch the worst if I flip town. Thus, mislynching me today loses solo scum the worst the game.

However, if the worst uses his role to gladiate Wisdom, he delays my mislynch until tomorrow while forcing you to mislynch Wisdom. This means that rather than having to convince you tomorrow that he's town, he can argue that you should lynch Wisdom today not because Wisdom is scum but because he wants you to rule out Wisdom/Random, and then mislynch me tomorrow. This is how solo scum the worst wins the game.

There's a risk to solo scum the worst's play: I successfully bodyguard the nightkill. But that still puts him the same situation he would have been in if he had just mislynched me today (i.e. LYLO in a situation where I've flipped town already). In other words, it's a minimal risk compared with mislynching me straight away.

There's also the risk that you lynch him today, but if you were going to do that today, then you definitely would have done it tomorrow after I flipped town. So either way, the worst made the correct play if he's solo scum. It was by far the best play he could have made if he's scum here.

[Shoshin]

I don't want to insult you, Nancy. But you're assuming scum will kill you when their #1 goal is actually leaving me alive, not killing you.

Well, if you prove them wrong by saving me from the NK, then they can’t obviously.

Again, I'll be on you. When neither of us die, are you going to finally realize I'm town or mislynch me? My guess is you're going to mislynch me. I don't trust you to make the right call, especially not after you mislynched Sajj. So I need to make sure I choose right today.

If Wisdom flips red, I’m obviously lynching random.

Yeah, of course. You know I'm not partnered with Wisdom or I already would have hammered the worst. You also know I'm not partnered with the worst or I would have hammered Wisdom.

[Shoshin]

the worst is not partnered with Wisdom or Random or me. That's been established at this point.

The only question left to decide is whether it's Wisdom/Random or solo the worst.

Don’t you get it that if the worst is solo scum, we risk nothing by lynching Wisdom but if Wisdom/random are w/w and you hammer on the worst, we lose the game?

Yes, I understand that. The problem is that you're going to mislynch me tomorrow. Am I wrong about that?

[Shoshin]

@the worst

I'd also like to know why you voted Sajj after I pointed out exactly why she was town. Like, what's going through your head there?

I mean I really wasn't townreading you at that point so your posting didn't have a major impact on me :\

that phase ended a lot sooner than I would have liked it to. there were a few things about Sajj that weren't really stacking up as scum and by the time I came around on it it was too late.

this shit happens.

Shoshin I think the answer to your question is in here ^^
I didn't have the time to sort Sajj I would have liked before the hammer. What else do you want from me here? if I haven't addressed anything wrt Sajj let me know.

This answer is bullshit.

You voted her. Then you unvoted. And then you voted again the moment Nancy appeared stating that she thought Sajj was scum. You had time, enough to reconsider your vote, and then enough to place your vote back on Sajj when Nancy showed up.

[Shoshin]

There's no rush, the worst. You can answer the questions when you get off work, or when you have time. But I want them answered before deadline.

[Shoshin]

o ye

VOTE: Sajj
L-3

why did you claim novice vig? we're like obligated to lynch you for fakeclaiming

VOTE: Sajj

feels good lynching CShep's #1 scumread tbh

feels good lynching CShep's #1 scumread tbh

now tell me you have been scumreading me all this time

^ scum mocking me for townreading her d1

Huh I didn't expect it to be this easy

hi

who's the biggest wagon?

while you're at it was this meant for the scum pt?
the commander was curious

UNVOTE:

huh

VOTE: Wisdom

your whole defence is just WIFOM - eaay to fake as scum.

zzzzzzzz guess it was worth trying
VOTE: Sajj

why are you locktown on rando

what motivation do you think i had for lying about being 1 shot

it's day 5, it is time for you to start explaining what you think and why you do what you do.

you suddenly pulled some bullshit about tryna eat the nk within 24 hours from backing up your awkward soft. TBH I figured some scumbuddy fed you the "trying to eat the nk" story. xD

UNVOTE: I'll be sensible when I'm sober xoxox


sorry Wizzy ILY I was hoping Sajj or wheme would go full stupid

if you actually think there's a reason I should see you as town spew it rn

yeah ok that's just desperate

I could have provides you reads at any point in this entire game and I think my trajectory on every slot is transparent af

but guess what?

you haven't thrown me a question

Sajj is either scumclaiming or stupid claiming and I don't think she's stupid

I'm certain that scum are among Random, Wisdom, Wheme, and the worst.

every player
except the conftown
and Sajj


why are you locktown on Sajj I don't understand

VOTE: Sajj

will be in literal shock of this is town tbh

can we lynch Shosh? that'd be like 100000 Christmases but Sajj is scum before her

hold on scum redirected Nancy to Sajj? I thought she targeted Sajj...

@the worst

Why'd you ignore my reasoning as to why Sajj was town?

[Shoshin]

All of your 4 points just....... sound like things scum could easily do and I disagree that her play got townier

Why'd you disagree with points that very clearly showed why Sajj was town?

[Shoshin]

Like, the worst, I don't understand how you can call my play bad when you're the one mislynching Sajj despite me basically telling you why exactly she's town. That's why to me it looks like you went with the mislynch on Sajj because you needed it to win, and now you're just buddying Nancy by saying I'm bad and toxic instead of being genuine at all. There's no way you think those things about me when I nearly stopped a mislynch that could have made this game 100x easier to win for town.

[Shoshin]

I'm also still waiting for answers to my questions about your play on D1.

[Shoshin]

No, because I’m not convinced you are Scum anymore. Scum!Shoshin wouldn’t have tried to stop Sajj mislynch, especially since she was scumreading you at the time. But why does solo scum try to mislynch you? If the worst isn’t partnetrd with random, then why should he not lynch random over you?

Why does solo scum try to mislynch me? Because scum wins by mislynching.

If the worst is solo scum, it's a lot easier to mislynch me than Wisdom or Random. Like, think about it. Who would solo scum want around in 3-way LYLO? Me. I'm the easiest player to mislynch in this group of players.

[Shoshin]

@the worst

You should have read my reasoning on Sajj. Like, I made multiple posts outlining exactly why she was town. And I did appeal to you directly. More than once.

[Shoshin]

@Nancy I'd be surprised if Shoshin were scum here too but it's still absolutely possible. it's just a conversation that's better had later.

You've changed your tune a lot. When you first gladiated Wisdom, you were saying I was probably scum but you just wanted to rule out the possibility of Wisdom/Random. What changed?

[Shoshin]

the worst, you don't need to convince Nancy, you need to convince me. Please answer my questions.

[Shoshin]

You really aren't as transparent with your thinking as you imagine. Like, I'm still trying to understand what happened on D1. Where's the answer to those questions? Instead of telling me that you're transparent, how about you show it?

[Shoshin]

can you show me like what part of my d1 posting is making you confused?

You said Ank was "badtown" on D1. But more recently (like today or yesterday), you said she's a "crazy strong town player." The truth is neither: she's hit or miss, and this game she was miss. I'd like to know why you said she was "badtown" on D1, and then later said she was "crazy strong town." What changed?

I'd also like to know why you townread Sajj on D1, why you refused to answer my question about her, why you said you were intentionally obscuring your read to do something, and what it was you were doing.

Last set of questions, the worst:

Why would you call me "scum with a town role PM" when you'd know that my reads have been very good this game? Like, if you assume I'm town and Wisdom/Random are scum, you'd have to admit that I had the best reads in this game (defended against both mislynches, called Creature/Random on D2, said Chick was plausible partner with Random, and called Wisdom on D4).

You'd also know that I'm the reason that Nancy (confirmed town) is living all the way to LYLO, an extremely pro-town result. To me, it feels like you're being disingenuous about my what you think of my play, and that you're doing it to intensely buddy Nancy in preparation for LYLO between us three.

You said that players much better than me have used their bodyguard to sacrifice their lives for badtown. Can you give an example? If you just pull any example of a bodyguard, I'm lynching you. The example has to be from a player who is actually much better than me (they exist, but I doubt that you actually have seen them use bodyguard in the way you claim they have).

Why are you calling me toxic when I haven't said anything worse than other players in this game (I can find posts from you with language just as insulting as mine, as well as posts from players like Wisdom, among others, all of which is quite strong)?

Why are you defending Nancy so strongly while ignoring all the times she's insulted me (while I don't personally hold it against her, Nancy used some very strong language towards me, so it's odd that you call me bad and toxic while pretending that she's 100% innocent of anything)?

(Nancy, don't take this offensively, I'm asking some questions about what happened earlier because I'm concerned that the worst is manipulating the situation to buddy you and secure my mislynch).

My questions.

I thought your early read on Sajj was bullshit. I called you on it on D1. I thought your refusal to answer felt like scum who said she was town without actually having a reason to think it (despite others have said, I think scum do this more often than town).

I also think all your criticisms of my play/personality were disingenuous (like, how can you say I'm bad or "scum with a town role PM" when I'm the one person who fought tooth and nail to save Sajj), so I'm concerned those criticisms were made as part of a scum agenda to buddy Nancy in preparation for LYLO. If you genuinely believe those things, I'd like to see what the thought process is so that I can see if it's genuine or part of a scum agenda.

That is why these things are relevant to your alignment, regardless of the fact that you think they're not.

[Shoshin]

if Shoshin thinks I'm wking her holy fuck

I'm worried you're buddying Nancy, not me. I'd appreciate if you clear up my concerns, that's all. In normal circumstances, I'd have voted Wisdom already, but this isn't a normal circumstance where I can trust Nancy tomorrow (again, no offense Nancy, but our relationship is not in a place where I feel comfortable with the risk of making the wrong call today).

[Shoshin]

defending a mislynch is never AI lol, if anything your lack of read trajectory in her is sliiiightly gross

Are you kidding me? The read trajectory was pretty clear. And it was AI in this case, because preventing Sajj mislynch guarantees that town win this game 9 times out of 10. Like, how could town possibly lose this with Sajj clear yesterday? Explain that to me.

[Shoshin]

the worst has seen me townread players who aggressively attack me and scumread me, so I really don't like that he's taking that approach here. I'd really appreciate if you just calmly replied to my questions because I think they're legitimate questions and I think it's legitimate for me to treat today like LYLO between myself, Wisdom, and the worst.

[Shoshin]

the worst, why are you using self-destructive AtE here? Any example of you doing that as town?

[Shoshin]

Nancy, you should vote Wisdom because that's obviously the correct move for you. Again, for me, the correct move is making the right choice between Wisdom and the worst. I'm not thinking that through, so please allow me the time and space to think about it. I didn't rush you, don't rush me.

[Shoshin]

I'm pretty sure she'd say that as either town or scum tho

Are you serious? Do you honestly believe she is that clueless about the gamestate?

do I trust Shoshin to be shamelessly bad?
lol. yes. more than I trust myself to be a duckling.

I don't buy that you think I'm "bad" at gamestate analysis.

Like, you mislynched Sajj while I defended her... but I'm "bad" because I protected Nancy, the confirmed townie?

And then you've called me "toxic" a few times. Like, how? What have I done that is "toxic" compared with anyone else in this game?

Explain how calling me "bad" and "toxic" wasn't just an attempt to pocket Nancy. If you actually believe it, that's fine, but there has to be a reasonable basis for that belief.

[Shoshin]

the worst, stick to answering my questions. I'm getting mislynched tomorrow if I make the wrong call, so it doesn't matter how I look today.

[Shoshin]

You also haven't explained the change in your read of Ank.

[Shoshin]

I agree that the worst's play makes perfect sense as town as well, except for the few concerns I'm raising, which is why I want him to clear them up instead of engaging in all this bullshit AtE.

[Shoshin]

It's nice to hear you say that I'm obvtown finally but I don't believe it at this point, no offense. Don't trust anyone but myself in this game, very unusual for me to do as town but it's just how this game shook out, unfortunately.

[Shoshin]

No rush. We have plenty of time.

[Shoshin]

If I were scum in your position, the worst, I'd 100% have gladiated exactly as you did.

[Shoshin]

I"m not trying to get into a 1v1, so I don't know why that's what you're interpreting. I'm trying to clear up my concerns, I don't get why you're making that so difficult?

[Shoshin]

the worst, you thinking this is TvT doesn't change how I feel about it, which is that it's one townie (me) trying to figure out another player's alignment (you) who I'm uncertain about (i.e. could be town, could be scum). Like, this is how the game of mafia works, and it's never a waste of time to help someone read you, especially when the game could turn on that.

Wisdom, why are you suddenly townreading me? Didn't you think I was solo scum earlier?

[Shoshin]

nancy, its shoshin and tw
Unless its only one scum left, in which case it's just shoshin

Why'd you say it's just me earlier?

[Shoshin]

if tw flips town I think ill probably vote random over shoshin

This is also a massive shift in thinking from earlier. What changed on this front?

[Shoshin]

yeah youre not town
youre taking everything im saying and assigning them scum motivation

To be fair, I feel like this is what you were doing to me earlier.

[Shoshin]

Alright, time to vote.

It's going to be on Wisdom. My gut is saying I should go with the worst, but my brain is saying otherwise.

I'm sorry if wrong, Wisdom. I'm voting you because of your association with Random (he's been my top scumread and I can't discount the possibility that you're partners), and because I'm struggling to believe you suddenly change your mind about scum neighbors now that I'm the one making the decision between you and the worst. I'd believe you saying the worst is scummier than me, but not Random, not after how much weight you've been giving his role all game. Like, your internal logic all game has been to give his role more weight than any behavioral evidence... except when you suddenly need me to vote the worst to survive? You stretched too far there.

Any last words?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Wisdom

[Shoshin]

Nancy, don't worry. I'm protecting you tonight, so we're either in LYLO together, or I'm dead.

[Shoshin]

Tough call.

I don't know.

[Shoshin]

I think Random has been by far the scummiest player in this game when it comes to behaviors/associations.

I think the worst hasn't been nearly as towny as people say he is when town. And I question whether there's any thought process behind half the things he says, which makes me question whether he's actually town.

Do you lynch the scummiest player or the player who you expected to be more towny as town? I don't know.

[Shoshin]

the worst has been very scummy today and yesterday. His progression on Sajj makes no sense, and I feel like everything he did today was very much geared towards pocketing you in a way that didn't feel genuine at all. Even if he's town, I don't think it's genuine (no offense).

I don't know about characters. Like, it's just too much speculation.

[Shoshin]

Random is most likely scum for the creature thing

Chick says this on D3. Then on D4, she says Random is scummy but there's better lynches, and she votes me.

I'm the one pointing out that Random is scum because of his interactions with Creature.

So, you have Chick saying that Random is scum because of things I've said, but then voting me.

We could probably lynch Random for that alone. When you add in the stuff from D1 and D2 regarding Creature, as well as his unnatural hostility towards Nico, plus lurking the game out and overall apathy, mislynching Angel and Sajj, and generally doing nothing towny, I'd say it's hard to make any sort of case that Random is town.

[Shoshin]

That's the nature of effective buddying - the person buddied can't see it.

[Shoshin]

I think you raise some good points about flavor. It's not my preferred source of evidence but I agree that it points to Random.

[Shoshin]

I doubt we both make it to LYLO anymore. We would have if you kept saying you scumread me, but not with this townread lol

[Shoshin]

I don't get what he did in the hood to make you townread him, so I can't speak to that.

[Shoshin]

Random's been playing that way all game, no inkling of ever second-guessing anything.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Random

[Shoshin]

@the worst

I don't really care why you think I'm "shamelessly bad," "atrocious," or "toxic." I wasn't any of those things.

For the record, I was insulted this game much more than I ever insulted anyone else, and it was incredibly frustrating to deal with that when I was right about almost everything. I had the best reads in this game by a large margin and if town had followed my lead, we wouldn't have ever mislynched.

In defense of my bodyguard decision, I don't think town wins this game if I had sacrificed myself for Shepard. I made the decision I made because there were too many misgiuded townies who I couldn't trust to lynch the scum. That's not an insult or toxic or bad, it's a judgment call about the direction the game was heading. It was a tradeoff (confirmed but misguided townie vs obvious townie with correct reads) and contrary to what you think, it played a part in winning us this game.

[Shoshin]

Gg all I am okay with releasing PTs

And I lied to Shoshin I didn’t trust you at all. The claim was sketchy as fuck. I am quite surprised you were town. And that site rule is there for a reason.

I realize you lied to me... but it's okay... you didn't trust I was town, I didn't trust you to lynch scum...

What site rule?

[Shoshin]

Oh, that's a bad rule. I don't think you should ever lynch someone because of role, or not lynch because of role (e.g. scum neighbors).

[Shoshin]

I will go into my thoughts later

But Shoshin, you were wrong. We would have likely won faster if you died night 3

Doubtful. Look at how this played out.

We mislynched once after D3, on Sajj. If Nancy hadn't accidentally hammered, maybe we don't mislynch at all. Either way, the result isn't bad. After N3, we lynched 3 scum and 1 town. That's a fast win by any measure.

If I had died N3, would town have mislynched Sajj? Probably yes, because she was Shepard's top suspect and you specifically said she was scum if I flipped town. You add in Sajj's lie, Wheme's whimsical vote, Nancy's accidental hammer, etc. and Sajj is almost certainly mislynched again. And it'd be disingenuous for you to say in hindsight that you wouldn't have mislynched Sajj when that was who you expressly wanted to lynch.

You also said Random/Wisdom were obvtown and that Wheme was the last scum if both myself and Sajj flip town. That doesn't give me any assurance that we would have won "faster," if anything it worries me that we would have lost. If I die N3, scum kill Shepard/Nancy on N4 & N5, leaving you, Random, Wisdom, Wheme, and the worst in LYLO. Given what you said about Wheme, why should anyone believe we even win if I die N3?

I let Shepard die to keep my voice in the game, and while that might run against your theory of how mafia or bodyguard is supposed to be played, the results speak for themselves.

[Shoshin]

I will go into my thoughts later

But Shoshin, you were wrong. We would have likely won faster if you died night 3

I agree with this because had you died D3, your random suspicions would have been taken far more seriously.

I doubt it. You didn't trust Nico on Random after she died, you didn't trust Shepard on Random after he died, and you ultimately didn't trust Reality on Random/Wisdom after she died. So why would you have trusted trusted me?

In general, dying means your reads get ignored... that's been my experience in most games... unless you have a strong reputation for good reads, which I don't have because nobody has played with me before...

This is one of those games where only a few of the very best players will be able to appreciate my play because most others can't get past a stilted theory about how bodyguard is supposed to work.

Considering how misguided both you and Ank were reads-wise, I think maybe instead of blaming me for your bad reads you should take this opportunity to learn from where you went wrong.

[Shoshin]

Maybe you’re right but your reaction at the time to CS’s death and overreaction on Angel was a big part of what made people suspicious of you. Also, CS would have also pushed random lynch and would have likely gotten it. Yes, you hands down, had the best scumhunting instincts of anyone in the game and you 100% deserve credit for that but your constant let’s lynch random posts, actually had the opposite effect. Although if I was in another game with you, I’d obviously view that differently.

I reacted to Shepard's death in the way I felt. I wasn't happy to lose a confirmed townie, but I felt that my voice was more important. That's not scummy, as this game should make clear to you.

I didn't overreact to Angel's death. I wasn't happy she was mislynched, which isn't scummy because scum don't get upset over mislynches. I strongly wanted you to reevaluate your reads in light of Angel's death, which also isn't scummy because scum hate townies who constantly reevaluate reads.

As for Random, what am I supposed to do when people are townreading the scum? Like, if you're in that position, what do you do? You keep pushing a lynch on scum.

I think you have a lot to learn about how scum think and my biggest gripe with you is that I didn't feel like you were taking the mislynches in the game as opportunities to learn from mistakes. When I mislynch someone, I always go back to figure out exactly where I went wrong. I didn't see that from you and that's why I was upset with you. Based on that, I figured you'd mislynch me and then blame me for the mislynch, same as you blamed Angel for hers. It's good that you're apologetic about the Sajj mislynch, though. That's a good sign.

[Shoshin]

I would have trusted your reads because CS would have continued to push random. As I said befire, it was mostly your reaction to his death and not your decision to not protect him, that made me scumread you. Scumreading you because of that made me think random was town. You can argue all you want about how ridiculous you think that is but I was hardtown reading you until that point.

You thought Random was town from D2 and my case didn't make any difference even though you townread me at the time. Feel free to look back at the case, because it's 100% dead on.

I hope you learn. I'm not saying it's ridiculous that you suspected me after I didn't protect Shepard, though it's undeniably misguided that you continued to suspect me when I addressed all your concerns, plus had Reailty's result confirming my role, plus defended the Sajj mislynch. Rather than blame my behavior, learn from it. Now you know what I did isn't scummy.

If you learn from mistakes, that's fine. I don't mind that you mislynched Angel, but I do mind that you try to justify it instead of learning. In the same way, if you instead blame your townread on Random on the fact that I didn't bodyguard Shepard, then what is there to say? That's not how you learn. You townread Random back when you were hardtown on me, so that's something you need to reeevaluate on its own terms, rather than blaming me.

[Shoshin]

However saying you know more than the entire town is incredibly risky to say the least.

I agree it's risky but I think part of the skill in this game is knowing when to take risks.

If it hadn't worked out, I'd freely admit I made the wrong call. But it wouldn't be because of a rule about how to use bodyguards, it'd be because I misjudged the gamestate in this specific game.

I disagree with the idea that players should blindly follow rules about how to use roles. Every game is different and there's lots of valid approaches to the game.

[Shoshin]

She has a naturally scummy manipulative-like style of playing, despite how accurate she might be, that makes her ideal to push.

I might seem easy to push but it's a trap for the scum. I'm not an easy mislynch.

[Shoshin]

Huge commendations to Shoshin for her read accuracy, though. there's a lot of aspects of being good at town, but read accuracy is a glorious one and your instincts here were dynamite. yeah, I was a little unfair with the way I positioned the rest of the town in the 5p Lylo and probably should have encouraged we all had a rest and a cuppa tea rather than pushing the "she sucks but she's town" narrative. sorry if you took offense at it, I definitely was sad to see Nancy genuinely offended.

I accept your apology and kind words.

[Shoshin]

i still don't get why random kept tw over wheme
Nancy was scumreading both wheme and shoshin, it would just double our possibilities
Not to mention gladiate vs useless voyeur

I think he was trying to avoid killing me.

[Shoshin]

Wheme also suspected Random to some degree, so Random knew that's two townies potentially voting him.

[Shoshin]

Wheme's votes were whimsical and he scumread me for a second before he realized I was the one defending Sajj... but generally he townread me and scumread Random... I'm just speculating about what went through Random's mind, not saying it was the right kill.

Also, re: bodyguard - I think our mod was in the best position to observe the game and evaluate the bodyguard play so maybe give what he's saying some credit.

[Shoshin]

Vanilla?

[Shoshin]

You could have claimed miller safely. I probably would have believed it because it would have seemed so unlikely for scum to claim at that point.

[Shoshin]

That sounds like another stupid role rule.

[Shoshin]

I mean, I understand why you claim miller on D1, but is that really the ideal way to play it? I'm not sure.

[Shoshin]

I also feel like a lone vanilla is believable. Why not? The token vanilla.

[Shoshin]

I understand why the miller rule exists, but I'm just saying it's not always the best play. Claiming miller D1 hurts town because it narrows down the valuable PRs, so there's situations where I probably wouldn't claim (e.g. if I knew the playerlist well enough to trust them to townread me). It's a risky move that I think everyone should try at least once in their lives.

[Shoshin]

Also, claiming on D1 attracts needless suspicion. It puts a lot of pressure on the player to obvtown their slot.

[Shoshin]

Where are these optimal play guidelines? I haven't seen them.

[Shoshin]

they're not on every page. but for example miller:

Play Advice
If you are a Miller, there are two schools of thought about optimal play:

The first school of thought is that you should claim immediately, ideally in your opening post. This ensures that the Cop will not waste an investigation on you. It becomes more likely that you will be lynched or shot by a Vigilante, however; otherwise, it would be too easy for Mafia to fakeclaim Miller as well. This is by far the most common way to play the role on mafiascum.net.

The second school of thought is that you should not claim, but should play in such a way as to not get investigated; ideally, you would get yourself killed at Night. If investigated, however, you should expect to get lynched.

Good advice. I think both are valid ways of thinking, and what's optimal depends on the specific playerlist.

[Shoshin]

was it a good read? it sounds like you were actually pretty well tuned into the gamestate considering the limited time you had (Ank mentioning your theory that 9p could be LyLo is what originally tuned me into the idea of there being 4 scum)

That implies I read it.

I read the early pages, I read some random pages on the last day we were alive plus a little after we died (including enough to know that Shoshin follows my school of theory going by Shoshin's direct quoting of my MD threads/articles at some points ), enough to pick up on Wisdom being scum and to have a reasonable idea as to what would be town/not town, including to be on the lookout for an extra scum, but I didn't have a SOLID grasp on the game at any point; my success here I'd say is more based around my skill as a mechanical player combined with educated guessing amounting to luck.

What article?

[Shoshin]

What article?

Well.

It means anything is possible but the basis of decisions should be probabilities, not possibilities.

This is pretty much a direct quote from my article here.

Though less-up-to-date than the wiki version, the original thread can be quoted to show this:

Basic Thesis:

Mafia thrive on

possibility

; town thrive on

probability

.

Everything in the game traces back to this simple belief.

A mafia player thrives on making players think of the unlikely: "What if this player who was investigated by the cop is actually a Godfather? What if the cop claim after the lynch of a Godfather is actually scum fakeclaiming?" These are things that are of course theoretically

possible

, and which vastly favor the scum because they are probably not actually true.

A town player thrives on making reasonably probable conclusions: No, the innocent is not on a Godfather; no, the cop claiming after a Godfather lynch is not scum fakeclaiming. There remains the possibility of being wrong in deductions like this...but sheer statistical numbers are on your side to hold these beliefs, as 90+% of the time you will be right to have held these stances.

I channel the possibilities with a simple, yet versatile, question: "

Which is more likely?

" Which is the most likely to be the case? This is closely tied to Occam's Razor, in that often the most likely possibility is the simplest one requiring the least number of assumptions.

Nothing Is Ever Certain!

You will never have a scumteam which perfectly fits all the data on hand. There will always be something which makes the team not be perfect. There will always be a valid point which keeps a scumteam from being flawless.

Town players will say scummy shit. Scum players will say shit which sounds town. This is a basic truth, universal to any game you will play. Which is stronger depends on the skill of the player in question as an alignment, not to mention the circumstances behind what they are saying. (A statement that is incredibly scummy in one game might be the beacon of towniness in another; similarly, a statement scummy from one player might be a huge towntell coming from a different player.)

However, regardless of how crappy the scum are, or how elite the scum are, or how good the town are, or how shitty the town are: both sides will always contain at least

some

of both. As a result, when weighing evidence, every player will have a possibility of being either alignment.

The job of a town player isn't to see every possibility--

the job of a town player is to figure out which possibility is the most probable.

Explain Using These Terms

You don't have to use the exact language that I use here. But it helps to use the conceptual language here, and lots of us do this already. When we see someone point out something which we find to basically be impossible, we'll call them out on their bullshit and clearly tell them why we feel their theory, while possible, is incredibly improbable.

Be Realistic

In all aspects of your play. You should have in mind at all times what is a realistic scenario and what is unrealistic. But you should also know what you can realistically do, and what you cannot realistically do. For instance, if you're suffering a bad V/LA, you probably shouldn't promise to write a novella on every player in the game because that is almost certainly beyond your realistic capabilities given your circumstances.

Apply Occam's Razor

Use it often. Point out how unlikely combinations are. Point out how many assumptions (especially flawed ones) a theory relies on. Keeping things simple is a guideline I cannot stress the importance of enough in terms of possibilities versus probabilities. Most remote possibilities flagrantly violate Occam's Razor; most probabilities use Occam's Razor.

In Summary:

As town, focus on what is probable rather than what is possible, and look for those who are failing to do so.

(Incidentally, I am absolutely horrendous at being realistic about what I can/can't do, but I am TRYING to get better about it. Trying.)

I wasn't quoting your article but I agree with the basic idea of weighing the evidence to determine what's likely. And in practice, that requires a lot of difficult judgments about how probable different behaviors are. Out of curiosity, are you a lawyer?

Sidenote: I disagree with the idea that it's probable for scum to focus on possibilities more than probabilities. Figuring out what's probable is a bit more complex than that imo (e.g. in this game the townies were the ones coming up with crazy improbable theories, including your partner Ank).

[Shoshin]

I figured you were a computer programmer.

[Shoshin]

Is there a list of what people do for a living? I feel like that could be pretty useful for scumhunting purposes.

[Shoshin]

I figured you were a computer programmer.

Interesting when you have time I would love to get to know you more and see how you came to that conclusion.

It's sort of obvious from the way you play the game. Like, talking about "rules" instead of really trying to dig deeper into things. It's very algorithmic.

[Shoshin]

Bug fixing, lol... I'm not saying you're not a deep thinker, but just that what you allow yourself to even contemplate feels limited by certain assumptions about how things are supposed to work, and then you sort of make deductions from that starting point in a very algorithmic way. Not all the time, of course, but more than what I'd expect from, say, a yoga teacher.

It's a very different approach to the game than mine. Which is cool, I've enjoyed playing with you quite a bit.

Are you on discord btw? I need to get on that.

[Shoshin]

I think I've figured out a really strong scum-tell for Math, but I can't say with certainty until I catch him on it. I'm pretty sure he's not aware of it so I don't want to say anything yet.

[Shoshin]

You're a lifeguard? That's so cool! I was recently at a water park and thought to myself how that'd be an awesome job lol

[Shoshin]

I'm not authorized to view that thread. How do I get that?

[Shoshin]

Basically, I have made it abundantly clear I believe Hell is not fire and brimstone, nor is it a frozen tundra. True hell is WATER. And any lifeguard can tell you as much.

I'm literally loling. I love the water lol... why are you a lifeguard if you don't like it?

[Shoshin]

I figured you were a computer programmer.

Fun fact, that's actually my brother's job! He's a programmer, got a Masters degree in it even. Makes enough money to be entirely self-sufficient with zero debt.

I tried to become a programmer at around the same age he started (my interest being in games, naturally), but I struggled too much with it. I completed Digiprep easily enough and completed the two-year Digipen program at my school (the one with seven textbooks),

Sno-isle, by any chance?

@Shoshin: I'm curious, do you have any read on what I do?

I'd guess you do something involving writing, but not a lawyer. Maybe journalism. Maybe.

[Shoshin]

Anyone have any guess what I do?

[Shoshin]

Same... Well, at least what I want to do since my current job isn't glamorous

I'm guessing some sort of HR.

[Shoshin]

Anyone have any guess what I do?

Teacher or psychologist or counselor << Something along those lines

You remind me of my first good therapist

lmao

[Shoshin]

What do you do, Ank?

[Shoshin]

I'm a yoga teacher.

[Shoshin]

Primarily, I'm a programmer, but my other major was game design, which was a lot of writing, so you're not too far off.

Dam, my first instinct when you asked was programmer but I remembered thinking you wrote like someone who wrote professionally so it felt at odds lol

[Shoshin]

Seems like there's a lot of programmers playing mafia... is there something about the game that attracts that crowd?