big poll abt normal preferences

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big poll abt normal preferences

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:57 pm

Post by schadd_ »

note that these are phrased in the negative: u check the box if u DONT want/like that thing

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1N_ntuJ ... S6kee3zCJ8

go! :)
Last edited by schadd_ on Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:11 pm

Post by schadd_ »

gl pointed out to me that there isnt a way to communicate that u think sk should be normal but u dislike it so i added a poll
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:12 am

Post by schadd_ »

results so far. keep voting!!!!!

"defies my normal expectations (ignoring established rules)"
>60:40 imbalance
10/13
SK
7/13
multiball
10/13
greylist
3/13
reminding PRs when they holster
6/13
<8day deadline
3/13
duplicate PRs among town
0(!)/13
more than half PRs among town
3/13
100% PRs among mafia
0/13
variance in mafia kill ability
8/13
transparent/alignment indicative setup pattern
5/13
transparent/AI moderator design habits
2/13
confirmed setup absences
2/13
confirmed setup presences
4/13
me as mod
4/13
"i generally dislike"
cop
5/13
gunsmith
2/13
pgo
9/13
town millers
6/13
ascetic townies
1/13
general negative utility
0/13
ascetic mafia
2/13
mafia ninja
6/13
traitors
7/13
high power setups
5/13
low power setups
1/13
people being shitty
12/13
implosion
3/13


i noted the 0/13 for duplicate roles. cfj (an expert) thought that it was explicitly not allowed as did i for a while. it might even be, at least in practice with the nrg. i know that in kidney mafia (which was a kind of openly broken game) it was considered that rolestopper was a counterclaim for a doctor. but nobody seems to have a problem with it explicitly.

few people took issue with greylist, which is somewhat unsurprising and also shows people understood the "it doesnt have to be allowed" thing

imbalance, sk, multiball being abnormal were unsurprising, maybe a little bit higher than i expected even but i knew they were unpopular. irregular mafia killing is fair, it messes up a lot of norms about vigilantes/protectives. i'd like it personally if there were a dynamic around "this game is not confirmed to have 1 kill per night" that allowed e.g. higher ratio games with extra kills (i dont think it would be much of a thing in minis since that's tough to do in 2:11 i think?) or lower ratio games with few/no kills. i don't think the one kill per night norm is problematic though, i just think it's annoying as a designer to always have vigis be confirmed town.

5/13 shows where i'm coming from with cops. theyre kinda unfun. majority dislike of pgo and traitor i could have seen coming, 6/13 for ninja as well. i'm unsure as to whether pgo is normal but there is a good argument for making it not be.

people being shitty to each other works as a convenient demonstration that people were still reading all of the answers at the bottom.

questions:
somebody who voted against irregular mafia kills, can u share ur thoughts

for people who voted cop, do you more dislike playing the role as town or playing against it as scum? i think it's not very exciting to get the role and yucky to play against it.

same question abt traitor (but with aligns reversed) (i havent really played with one)

the person who didnt vote against people being shitty, :(?
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Post by schadd_ »

anyway judging from the results:

i plan to no longer include cop, traitor or ninja in any setups i make. somewhat unrelatedly i will include automatic daytalk in all of them (which i sort of meant to put in the poll but i don't think people would by and large have any issue with that)

i also unrelatedly won't include psychologist for my own reasons (it's a goofy role imo, idk. i don't like that it has a contradictory directive for who perpetrates kills than detective)
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:06 pm

Post by schadd_ »

im removing the sk poll bc im worried people think thats the poll and they dont see the other one

the vote was 9-11 agree-strqongly agree that serial killer is a bad role
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:41 am

Post by Invisibility »

who that took this poll likes people being shitty
Invisibility is actually AWESOME!
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:34 am

Post by schadd_ »

"defies my normal expectations (ignoring established rules)"
>60:40 imbalance
18/21
SK
12/21
multiball
16/21
greylist
4/21
reminding PRs when they holster
9/21
<8day deadline
5/21
duplicate PRs among town
0/21
more than half PRs among town
6/21
100% PRs among mafia
1/21
variance in mafia kill ability
12/21
transparent/alignment indicative setup pattern
7/21
transparent/AI moderator design habits
5/21
confirmed setup absences
3/21
confirmed setup presences
4/21
me as mod
5/21
"i generally dislike"
cop
7/21
gunsmith
3/21
pgo
13/21
town millers
6/21
ascetic townies
1/21
general negative utility
4/21
ascetic mafia
3/21
mafia ninja
7/21
traitors
10/21
high power setups
6/21
low power setups
2/21
people being shitty
20/21
implosion
6/21
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:28 am

Post by skitter30 »

i guess what i basically expect from a normal game is:

a) reasonably balanced

b) it should be very obvious how roles interact with each other

c) certain fundementals are in play: scum know who each other are (barring things like traitors), scum can kill at night, there are fewer scum than town, etc

i don't really like sks but i don't think they're not normal so long as it's been announced as a possibility

i odn't really mind if 'new' / greylisted roles are in a normal game so long as:

a) the possibility of such roles being included has been announced beforehand

b) role PM is posted upon flip

c) it's abundantly clear how that role interacts with other roles - like 'mason tracker' isn't explicitly whitelisted i think (or maybe it just became so in the newest update, i don't remember), but like it's very obvious what it does and how it interacts with everything else and i think a role like that is reasonable in a normal game

i wouldn't care if normal games had flavor; like that doesn't affect the 'normal-ness' of a game for me

i guess the defining factor of a normal game for me is that players should have reasonable knowledge as to what's possible in the game and that the game is reasonably balanced.

if you announce beforehand that the game will be a blitz game, or that it's possible that there will be an sk, i don't care if a normal is a blitz or has an sk so long as players know what they're getting into

mechanics that change the fundemental structure of the game i wouldn't consider normal - i guess i would prefer something like multiball to be announced beforehand but that kinda straddles the line for me and i wouldn't consider it non-normal if it showed up in a game. annoying, sure, but it's been established that multiball is possible in the normal queue so even if i didn't want multiball i wouldn't consider it non-normal since it's known to be a possibility

(i haven't played in the normal queue since the new guidelines have been implemented so maybe multiball was taken out? I don't remember; my opinion on multiball is based on the old normal guidelines)
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:21 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

Multiball/SK were taken out from Mini Normals, but not from Large Normals.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:05 pm

Post by Not_Mafia »

Are the shift and Caps Lock keys on your computer broke?
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:51 pm

Post by schadd_ »

oh good question. hold on lemmie check

no theyre not
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:05 pm

Post by xyzzy »

I think the best way to handle something like the mod confirming that there's no cops or what have you would be to allow games where 1)there are no townies, but 2)each player is an informed role, and 3)the information each player receives is that there are no cops, and 4)the sample role PM is an informed townie

basically, that sort of information should be in role PMs, but if it is in everyone's role PM, I think it's fine
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:10 pm

Post by schadd_ »

that is way less elegant to me especially since the point is that people can be like "oh i hate those roles" or "hey i like those roles" in advance of the game and choose whether to join

i'm just making explicit a mod meta that i would definitely have regardless of whether i had this blacklist and it would really suck if somebody fakecaimed cop only to learn "oh lmao schadd doesn't put cops in his setups... lmao"

also hello welcome to my thread
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:13 pm

Post by schadd_ »

also (thinking emoji thinking emoji) the blacklist of people being shitty (thinking emoji thinking emoji) is already in most people's rules and not in PM (thinking emoji thinking emoji) so how come you don't have a problem with that? (thinking emoji)
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