Heroes Wanted! (Game Over)

[Sando]

what do you think about it and where is your vca before asking others about it?

My answer is primed and ready though!

Sando when you see this just post your answer

Oh right:
1) Nos is scum, the constant misrep and progression is basically a tool to get a townie lynched while contributing literally nothing else at this stage.
2) FA's push came from decent places of misunderstanding
3) The timing is the key issue, I knew I wasn't going to hit a problem with posting etc, so I deliberately kept my post vague. When I casually said I was going overseas for 2 days, I wasn't really expecting much to happen regarding my slot, and I wasn't super happy with Mylo lynch so I left on Drixx. Then I come back at night to read a cliffhanger of a day where I'm nearly lynched. I'm not kidding when I say one person knew exactly what I was doing, duckling. Obviously you need to know I'm town to read more into that, but from my POV, the wagon came at an awfully convenient time when I couldn't respond. In this context, I think the wagon D2 has a decent amount of chance of insight.

[Sando]

Nos is scum, the constant misrep and progression is basically a tool to get a townie lynched while contributing literally nothing else at this stage.

nah, pretty sure hes just town who thinks youre scum and doesnt care what you say (aint helpful if youre town, but is what it is)

Doesn't change the terrible progression and complete lack of content anywhere other than about me, and that's a clusterfuck of bullshit.

[Sando]

@sando, can you list every player you have a scum read/scum lean on in case you are to be lynched?

How about my wagon, they're in order of confidence within each group:

Scum:
the worst - this should be obvious, you don't need me to flip to see how bad that move was from duckling
Nos - I've outlined repeatedly why this is scum, but I think using a tunnel on me for three days to avoid doing anything means that some-point soon you're gonna have to sort it.
Gaaaaap goes 'ere
Gamma - Urgh, the jumps onto me have been bad, and I really haven't seen him contribute anything, but saying that me pointing out that I shouldn't be lynched pre-leader sorting is scummy is pretty lol
Titus - Nothing about the wagon is particularly bad from Titus, I find her independently scummy
Toog - Nothing changed here from last discussion

Town:
Sakura - Even the "terrible" 180 has been described in harsher terms by Sakura than I would give credence to, I think this is town genuinely trying to get the most out of the wagons
Creature - Creature is creature, this looks like town creature
Kokichi - Urgh, the jump onto me is stupid and lazy, but then I'm pretty sure Kokichi is stupid and lazy...

Others of note:
FA I'd consider basically 0% chance of scum at this point. My initial fears (the same ones people seemingly have about Titus) were answered by Shiro/Cerb, so unless something there is shown to be false I wouldn't bother looking there. I think she's wrong about the Ank kill and I don't think should be leader again anytime soon (I don't think it's a good idea to elect people more than once or twice regardless), but I can't see scum here at all. If shiro flips scum I'd give FA maybe 1% chance of being scum, and if the medium turned out to be a really elaborate lie I'd be willing to lynch FA, but other than that, 100% town.

Stungun - Town, pretty obvious and will be more when I flip town

Nancy - Townlean, some setup spec here borders on poor enough logically to be scummy, but overall I think a townie slot

Math - Town, but I think flowndering and I think a bit of a pocket target for scum, has reigned it in D3 which is I think overall positive for town and we're getting better from him.

zMM - I'm really struggling to read zMM, but townlean probably

Shiro - Town, I don't think scum gambit to link with Cerb unless it serves a purpose. Only purpose I could see was protecting scum-FA but actually being linked with town-Cerb who is clearing FA of that particular accusation says that's not the gambit.

Tora - Scumlean, the buddying with me D1 was weird and I eventually progressed to a scumread then, that hasn't changed.

Drixx - My D3 wagon in light of his push D2 on me is fairly interesting, I don't know what to make of it, but it's interesting I think.

[Sando]

Stungun - Town, pretty obvious and will be more when I flip town

y?

Comes in and consistently TRs the easy D3 mislynch, instead of being "talked around" to me being scum and getting the mislynch or just ignoring it and getting the mislynch, doubles-down on me being town.

[Sando]

those are all things scum would do when a mislynch is probably gonna go through anyway but even if it doesn't who cares?

To that degree? I mean sure, scum would love to cred for TRing a town-slot that gets mislynched, but it's a matter of degrees and opportunities. Also did the slot need the TR? Without me being town-flipped I doubt I'm the only person with a decently strong TR of the slot, why call attention to the wagon for extra cred?

[Sando]

Take Shiro for example. I can think of reasons scum!Shiro would take FA I can think of all sorts of things scum could do to fuck with me and the rest of town. It feels like you’re starting from “this is how I expect things to be played” instead of “this is reality” what is it telling me.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. What am I saying is expected vs reality?

I also don’t like how you adamantly townread FA and then go “don’t make town leader”

Why?

Risk reduction mostly, if you've ever worked in risk, there's a pretty common matrix (OSHA uses it) of likelihood & outcome. High likelihood and catastrophic outcome are your worst case risks, low likelihood and low outcome are safe to ignore. As much as the likelihood is low, the more eggs you put in one basket the more the outcome becomes more and more catastrophic.

I also think it's a reasonable bet that scum have power negation and let FA live/become leader a second time, that gives me significant pause about the effectiveness of an FA leader, even though I don't think it's scum-indicative.

[Sando]

It’s like the scene from Princess Bride and the poisoning. You’ve made an assumption as to which goblet is poisoned and then started reads from there. When the reality in that scene is both were.

Yeah I get your premise, I'm struggling for what it's in relation to, is it all the FA discussion?

Assume scum have power negation.
This means that they can stop a power from acting.
This doesn’t all of a sudden make FA a bad leader choice if she is town. It means they may be able to kill her if she is town.

Now if you assume that scum could kill anyone replace FA with Sando. You’d be arguing you’re own ineffectiveness as leader. Unless there is a unique quality that applies to FA there is no point in that post.

You're missing a very, very crucial detail here: FA was listed, along with Ank, as one of the two leader options last night. Scum decided to kill one of those and presumably could only kill one of those. Both FA and Ank would have 2 powers, equal chance of having BP etc (ignoring the idea that Ank crumbed use of medium). So it's not unreasonable to assume scum used power negation to ensure the kill went through.

If that's true (and I think it's the most likely option, but by no means guaranteed), they decided it was better to leave FA alive than Ank as leader. That tells me they cared enough about the leader to kill one of the options, and they preferred FA to Ank.

[Sando]

Possible but unlikely because if they had it, why wouldn’t they have used it on FA instead of Ank? The only person whom I’m getting any possible scum vibes off of is Titus and she can’t have both PN and precog, so I think it’s more likely than not scum didn’t want to risk FA kill blowing up in their face, which could only happen if they didn’t have PN, so nah.

Possible, but if you're killing outside of your negate, why FA? I dunno how many unique heroes we had between N1 and N2 (8 I think from glance at my notes), but apart from being unkillable once leader, why is stopping power usage from FA better than anyone else? Maybe even less given FA was heavily incentivised to use a protection ability (which she did).

I'm not saying FA being alive is scum indicative, I'm saying it's indicative that scum are more ok with FA leader than Ank leader, and they cared at least a bit about it since they killed inside the choices. I can't say I'm a huge fan of giving scum what they want, even if I can't discern a motive.

[Sando]

You’re saying it’s likely scum did X-action so Player Y is Z-alignment

No, I've VERY specifically said I'm NOT saying that (putting things in <> brackets breaks quotes btw so I've rewritten it).

I'm not saying FA being alive is scum indicative, I'm saying it's indicative that scum are more ok with FA leader than Ank leader

My readlist says I see basically zero percent chance FA is scum, why do you insist that I'm SRing her here?

[Sando]

Everything underlined makes assumptions about town or scum then bases the read on those assumptions rather than stuff in play.

This is just wrong and shows a clear lack of understanding of what happened D2. I'll say Nancy first, cause that's just wrong, I don't like some of Nancy's posts because they're surface level game-theory that is borderline scum-biased. Bad game-theory favours scum and thus more likely to come from scum. However I like the rest of Nancy's content so I'm leaning town on the slot overall.

Regarding Shiro and FA, you're missing what happened D2, which is odd, since you started it:

Math - Who hates FA as leader tonight?
Sando - Me, it's unnecessarily dangerous, I don't think she's scum but here's a scenario where it would make sense for FA to be scum, we should limit our risk
Ank - Nah we can just medium and that scenario is proven/disproven
Ank+Sando+others - Long back and forth about how the powers work and eventually agree it's possible for scum-FA to do what I was suggesting but highly unlikely
EOD happens, Ank dies overnight, Shiro opens with medium on Cerb.
Sando - Hmm medium'd cerb does indeed disprove the theory

I've said consistently that I TR FA and I've also said that stacking powers is dangerous, let alone stacking multiple leaderships, based on reads alone. Independent of the Shiro/Cerb medium thing, I've TRd FA and so has most of the player list. I proposed a scenario that would explain Cerb's death and we also proposed the outcome that would eliminate that as a reasonable scenario. Now that that outcome has come to pass I'm saying that scenario no longer makes any sense.

We're talking about just how powerful power negation is, and the fact that the last doubts some people had of FA are dispelled by mediuming Cerb, and you think I shouldn't read anything alignment based into the fact that Shiro chose medium and used it?

[Sando]

Why not FA? If you weren’t necessarily scumreading the worst, you’d see he made some very good points leading to - what I think is an unlikely conclusion. He understands that it makes absolutely no sense for scum to have killed Ank over FA. His likely mistake is in assuming that FA must be scum because of it. I think scum would have absolutely used Power Negate on FA if they had it. Ank being the kill only makes sense if they didn’t have it.

What good points? That he can't see why Ank was killed over FA?

They both have the same power choices having been powered up twice
They're both widely townread
One has been leader before and one hasn't

There is a slightly more likely chance that Ank picked and will use medium, so if they didn't want to or couldn't use negation then Ank is a better kill target than FA within the group.

But my main point is they killed within the Ank+FA leadership options, when they could have killed anyone else with more safety. The fact that they killed either of them tells me they wanted to influence the leadership picks in some ways, otherwise they'd just ignore it and kill someone easier to kill.

So the question remains, if you're scum and you've decided to shoot at Ank without negating Ank's protection, relying on Ank using Medium, who do you negate (if you have it)? Why is FA a better negate target than anyone else on the list in that case? I think in this scenario FA is a worse pick since she's likely to just be using defensive powers, so negating them isn't particularly useful.

[Sando]

If you’re seriously scumreading me at all based on my misunderstanding ot “game theory”, I should link you to D6 game on MU to disabuse of any notion of that. You’re absolutely right to townread me because I am town and 1 am not lying about not choosing Power Negation. Therefore your theory has to be wrong if everyone else is also telling the truth about that and I see no reason at present, to think otherwise.

What part of "I didn't like Nancy's game theory posts but I think she's town" wasn't clear?

[Sando]

Why not FA? If you weren’t necessarily scumreading the worst, you’d see he made some very good points leading to - what I think is an unlikely conclusion. He understands that it makes absolutely no sense for scum to have killed Ank over FA. His likely mistake is in assuming that FA must be scum because of it. I think scum would have absolutely used Power Negate on FA if they had it. Ank being the kill only makes sense if they didn’t have it.

What good points? That he can't see why Ank was killed over FA?

They both have the same power choices having been powered up twice
They're both widely townread
One has been leader before and one hasn't

There is a slightly more likely chance that Ank picked and will use medium, so if they didn't want to or couldn't use negation then Ank is a better kill target than FA within the group.

But my main point is they killed within the Ank+FA leadership options, when they could have killed anyone else with more safety. The fact that they killed either of them tells me they wanted to influence the leadership picks in some ways, otherwise they'd just ignore it and kill someone easier to kill.

So the question remains, if you're scum and you've decided to shoot at Ank without negating Ank's protection, relying on Ank using Medium,

who do you negate

(if you have it)? Why is FA a better negate target than anyone else on the list in that case?

I think in this scenario FA is a worse pick since she's likely to just be using defensive powers, so negating them isn't particularly useful

.

Have you not read the description? PN works on anything. So what you’re saying about PN not being useful against FA, is simply not true. You theory is fallacious on other levels, such as the bolded. In my case, I was also a superhero on N1 and I like what I picked on N1 a helluva lot more, so if I am in this hypothetical situation, I either use the power I picked N1 or the one I picked on N2 - depending on which one I deem to be most useful to town or myself at the time.

Again, your bad argument is mainly based on confibias. There is no factual basis underlying it. I’m seriously starting to question why you keep pushing this theory and refusing to consider alternate explanations?

What on earth?! I said it's not useful against FA

UNLESS YOU KILL HER

.

I'm talking about the context, which you brought up, of killing Ank and negating another player

. In THAT CONTEXT, FA is not a good negation target, she's the most likely to be using a defensive power that provides no in-game benefit to her.

[Sando]

Do you also believe that FA/Shiro are also telling the truth? I do.

Yes, FA more than Shiro, unless you only mean the medium-Cerb claim which I believe more than anything.
FA town - by far my strongest TR
Shiro town medium - Very likely
Shiro scum medium - pretty unlikely, maybe
Shiro scum not-medium - stupidly unlikely

I'm not sure why I need to look at your previous PR game?

[Sando]

You all are also saying that you think I should be relooked later in game so lets just do that and stop talking about me when so many other slots are around that you can sort.

You're getting upset at me saying that I don't think you should be D5 leader and that I would only consider you lynchable in the event of a Shiro-non-medium reveal (I don't even know how we'd find this out). Dunno where this hyperbole is coming from.

[Sando]

Sando you didn't say why you think I'm wrong about ank?

also talk about my townreads and your townreads as I need it for tonight powers

what do you think about what muffin is saying? I prefer if we could heal slots that actually need that like math and shiro so shiro can medium ank and to see if scum will power negate it or not. I can actually heal one of the two tonight as I'm immortal this night

Wrong about Ank? You mean that they just shot Ank trusting that he was just gonna medium instead of blocking? I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm saying that that's a risk for scum not getting an NK, one they were willing to take apparently. I don't see how it negates the idea that scum would prefer you be leader than Ank though.

I posted a full list a little while ago, general list of townies:
FA, Sakura, Creature, Stun, Math, Shiro, Nancy.

Not sure Shiro is a good pick, medium is super useful atm and giving more powers when they can only use one seems kinda pointlessly dangerous.

Overall I tend to agree with Muffin, the issue is our leader picks dying. I think you're coming to the conclusion that scum don't (yet) have negation, meaning we can get our leaders protection tonight, afaik no-one has claimed BP power yet? That said, keeping negation picks low means if we get a negation that happens hot damn we got a small (very small with some conf-picks elsewhere) scumpool from N2.

Heal is fine, you get a pick tonight FA and can take heal with impunity and use whatever you want.

[Sando]

Therefore, this line of speculation is just useless WIFOM and is actually getting in the way of town doing anything useful.

Yeah...dunno why you're getting upset, you asked the question initially:

Possible but unlikely because if they had it, why wouldn’t they have used it on FA instead of Ank?

I think we're getting our wires crossed, did you mean "use negation on FA and kill her", because I read it is "use negation on FA and kill Ank".

[Sando]

It is not that simple sando, petrification while close is not a kill, it probably bypasses leader's protection, of course, if everyone in the team is town, petrify shouldnt be an issue to begin with.

Petrification isn't an issue at all if FA is the only superhero tonight though. If anyone gets petrified...we can pretty easily track that one down

FA doesn't have to pick heal, just seems like the sensible option, but then I haven't thought it through tbh much.

[Sando]

Why do you think me being leader was beneficial to scum. My day 1 list is proved 2/5 town already and the other 3 don't look bad at all imo. You have 2 of those in your townread list and one is just lurking hard cause he was devastated in last mafia game he played cause it lasted for 12 days and it was a nightmare of 131 players.

I'm not saying "beneficial to scum" in isolation, I'm saying you being leader was sufficiently better for scum than Ank to make them want to kill Ank. You and Ank were both good kill targets, both would have 2 powers, both were leadership prospects etc. But Shiro was also a double-hero, why not Shiro instead of Ank?

Before you dismiss my theory, the key question is that, why Ank instead of another hero?

a- they didn't have power negation
b- they didn't want to use it
c- they thought ank might be using another ability not bp or the phasing so she would be a safe kill
d- they just wanted her dead more than me cause she had a great read on someone somewhere and I'm just useless in comparision.

Given the properties of negation, don't see any reason not to (b) if you have it on your target, what other power is worth risking getting redirected etc?

A and C go together, but yes, possible. Still though, why shoot Ank at all instead of a third option?

D is possible yes.

[Sando]

Using power negation would risk outing a scum as limited players would have access to that ability. hence why b is a legit scenario

How does it get outed if it's on Ank? Only way I see is another medium tonight to see if Ank used BP and inferring. Probably another reason Shiro is a bad leader/hero pick, dead-man-walking over here as town, medium solves a lot of problems.

[Sando]

Isn’t Negation available tonight as well?, so how does scum using it tonight implicate superhero N2 team but exonerate superhero N3 team?

Because we're suggesting superhero team N3 be just FA, who was part of N2 superhero team if we wanna be paranoid anyway.

[Sando]

if they didn't have power negation ank would be a good kill cause titus could simply not include ank and she was second in command/line of leadership and softed an ability use that was not bp

Yes, true, if Titus is scum the requirement of negation to explain Ank kill goes way way down.

[Sando]

And again as mentioned that idea is stupid.

And again, that doesn't change the context of my comments.

FA - Hey Sando what do you think about not having a superhero team?
Sando - Well it makes negation pretty damn easy to track
Nancy - zomg Sando you're an idiot, it's a choice N3
Sando - Ahhh we're talking about if we don't take a superhero team N3
Math - Zomg that's a fucking stupid idea Sando, why would you say that to Nancy?!

Like...urgh...how the fuck does the idea being good or bad change my comments to Nancy?

[Sando]

it cannot be proven that superhero team 2 chose it but superhero team 3, did not.

Seriously? This is what I have to deal with?

Isn’t Negation available tonight as well?, so how does scum using it tonight implicate superhero N2 team but exonerate superhero N3 team?

Because we're suggesting superhero team N3 be just FA, who was part of N2 superhero team if we wanna be paranoid anyway.

In really, really simple terms:
In the

context of us not picking a superhero team

to get powers N3, negation power becomes a pretty damn small pool of players.

context of us not picking a superhero team

context

[Sando]

I did not suggest the no team idea it was muffins idea

I was just intrested in sandos opinion on that.

True, just didn't think it added to my narrative to add that in, broke my flow

[Sando]

Yes because your theory is predicated on anyone from superhero team 2 choosing it, when there is no basis to think they did. My point is what if you’re wrong and superhero team 2 never selected PN? Is it really worth not having even the smallest team of trusted townies to choose Heal and/or Enhanced Hearing?

a) That wasn't your point, you're scrambling here, you very specifically pointed to D3 powers being picked up, thus making it very hard to sort
b) Negation is just the most obvious, it also keeps scum favoured abilities out of their hands, like petrification and shapeshifting. The most town-favoured ability is healing and it's mostly a direct counter to petrification which would be out of scums hands anyway.

Not necessarily the best option, but you really need to stop misrepping my statements.

[Sando]

Gamma - Urgh, the jumps onto me have been bad, and I really haven't seen him contribute anything, but saying that me pointing out that I shouldn't be lynched pre-leader sorting is scummy is pretty lol

Excuse me, how are my jumps on you "bad"? I've been scumreading you pretty consistently, am I not supposed to vote my

fucking

scumreads? And I think I've contributed plenty, just because I've been less active this game day doesn't mean my previous activity is chopped liver.

And saying you shouldn't be lynched pre-leader sorting

isn't

scummy, it's the timing of it that felt scummy.

Hahahahaha, so saying it isn't scummy, but saying it at L-3 or L-2 or whatever it was IS? You're probably right, the townie thing to do would be to wait until after I was lynched and point it out in twilight...

[Sando]

it’s so annoying how these random quotes keep showing up when i go to preview a post, and it’s also hard to edit those posts out in safari. does anyone know how to fix this so these quotes don’t show up if i go back to previous pages between trying to make points?

I tend to have a post I'm creating and use another tab to copy/paste quotes from. Using one tab for replies is basically impossible I find beyond quick replies like this.

[Sando]

Shiro voted Katsuki based on Cerb’s read but now I’m not sure if he wanted Sando instead? @Shiro, please clarify this. Thanks.

Sounded like Cerb wants me dead for associatives.

[Sando]

Do you think there is any scenario that is not accounted in those 4?

One thing that occurred to me about our assumptions about the negation, there's no guarantee that Math/Titus have precog if they're scum. If we somehow conclude that scum have negate, they're not ruled out, they could be being fed precog info by other members of the scumteam.

[Sando]

So who exactly is Titus supposed to conspire with?

You for one...

This isn't conspiracy, I'm not using this to say either of you are scum, or suggesting we go down any rabbit hole. I'm just pointing out that you and Titus aren't necessarily cleared of negation as a power. Oh the humanity, I know.

[Sando]

prolly gonna not read last 10 pages
Who'd like to fill me in?

You have daychat, ask there.

[Sando]

I don’t see you doing that though. It looks really random with no common thread and you aren’t following up on what you’re given. Sure you’re hounding for an answer but I don’t see you doing anything with it.

This is fairly egregious in just how wrong it is.

[Sando]

Shiro voted Katsuki based on Cerb’s read but now I’m not sure if he wanted Sando instead? @Shiro, please clarify this. Thanks.

Sounded like Cerb wants me dead for associatives.

Please explain.

Cause of this:

He was reading it as it happened screaming that we should have lynched sando because that at least owuld have been useful to anylise in retrospect.

[Sando]

@Shiro, who does Cerb think Sando’s aligned with? I think he suspects Muffin and Katsuki. Is that right?

Why do you assume I'm going to flip scum? Why do you assume Cerb only has opinions on me flipping scum? I've already articulated why my town flip says duckling is scum and stungun is town, surely you've at least considered it?

[Sando]

uses vca to uphold weak scumread/earlier vote of sando, albeit still with very little support. doesn’t explain *why this is a possible bus —> which would be pivotal towards upholding such a stance.

I wanna know why Titus seems to be saying that me voting Titus is a possible bus...

[Sando]

It feels like a bit LAMiST with all the questions all over the place. I feel like each time I read his posts my brain is scrambling a bit. I don’t see how he goes from complete illogical in almost all of them to this. It feels like he is trying to shotgun to make a decent argument and find what sticks.

Literally the opposite of his progression on me, he's TRd me with gusto and gone against the grain repeatedly there.

[Sando]

Against the grain has 0 to do with alignment.

Against the grain is not "seeing what sticks" is my point, which you're saying is scum indicative.

[Sando]

I was sleepy and the lynch VCA didn't copy paste. If I am understanding my notes correctly, Sando should be voting Numbers even after that wagon.

Nope, I hammered ffs, that was part of the push on me D2, how do you miss that? FA's point that the hammer was "eww" is fair and reasonable, but your "the data shows" is utter bullshit.

I think Sando by votes is likely to flip due to the wagon swinging from him to a lurket and his disappearance.

That's not how D2 went down. The wagon was on Mylo and others for most of the day and switched TO me incredibly late. I went overseas about 36 hours before day end, which I posted about btw, and everything happened after that. I was never the predominant wagon afaik.

You're basing your entire case on me off incorrect assumptions, apparently this is what you're known for?

My focus today would be on Sando,

the worst

, bb slit and Math.

the worst - Coasting regardless of his alignment

Mmmhmmm, good effort with the focus on duckling there.

[Sando]

uses vca to uphold weak scumread/earlier vote of sando, albeit still with very little support. doesn’t explain *why this is a possible bus —> which would be pivotal towards upholding such a stance.

I wanna know why Titus seems to be saying that me voting Titus is a possible bus...

LMAO super fail xD
I didnt even realize that.

pointout where titus says that pls

Here:

123456789 (8): zMuffinMan, Sakura Hana, Human Sequencer, Titus, Katsuki, Nosferatu, Nancy Drew 39, the worst

Titus

(6): 123456789, Gamma Emerald,

Sando

, Frozen Angel, hebichan, Ankamius


Bus race not likely when Ank swaps wagons closer to EoD,

Sando possible bus

[Sando]

wait, sando. what made you townread the worst at this point? and what’s made him look scummier since your townread of him?

I know the worst fairly well, and was confident in reading him. I was also very aware of his game commitment issues at that point (I think I called someone out for it really early game even) and was giving him a pass on inaction. He plays very similarly to me, we both get very engaged with the game and riff off other people, I was personally seriously struggling with that D1, and most of D2 tbh, outside of a few names I'd have struggled to read most of the playerbase. I think this was due to the large player count throwing me off (apparently my read of number of kills is off because of that as well), and not knowing anyone really in the player base.

You can see the engagement happening in my play, you can't see the engagement happening in ducklings. My read-lists are getting longer and more in-depth and I'm more active with p.much everyone. Duckling isn't, he's being surly and a bit whiny with me, which is very out of character for him, and generally not being engaged.

D1 I was giving him a pass for things others were accusing him of, and I was confident of being able to read him later game, hence the TR.

I also just flat out refuse to lynch duckling D1 pretty much every game anyway, including the first game I played with him.

[Sando]

I think I called someone out for it really early game even

Wait, I think I actually called out duckling for being shitty at someone accusing him of it. Same outcome though, I was very aware of just how many games he was in/modding.

[Sando]

Like Sando imho seems better than this. Like he was advocating for leader so he was aware of the mechanics then why does he go to then call it a misrep from Nos?

Wat?

I'm not saying the fake-claim is a misrep, I'm saying that taking a single line a paragraph long post to make it look like I'm saying something I'm not is misrepping.

Two different assertions.

[Sando]

I don’t understand why Sando freaks out over what is fake as town then attacks FA who everyone is mutually townreading at this point? Then drops it and goes after the worst?

Me and FA misunderstood each other / mechanics, notably the whispering mod questions. Go read us early D3.

Here's the last part:

Furthermore he voted Titus for day 2 leader.

He also wants to remind you not to ask questions cause mod will only answer PM's.

Wait what? Mod ONLY answers PMs? I thought they opened it to PMs as well.

Shit, my bad.

I actually want to believe this derp to a level. Have to iso your d2 again with this in mind

[Sando]

No, I have an urge to vote Titus.
But if she kept her promise then maybe she's not scum... maybe.

A leader candidate died who should have gotten powers and knew they'd be a top target and thus had every reason to pick BP...

apparently either didn't get powers

or didn't pick BP. Unless they already had some protection that failed, I don't find it likely that Ank chose anything other than BP.

Like if Titus is scum why are you instantly assuming Ank got a power?
This reads like TMI.

WHAT?!?! Seriously?

In what you JUST quoted: "apparently either didn't get powers".

Like...c'mon.

[Sando]

solid answer! once again you give me a very cogent and thorough explanation here for your transition, and your consistency in this regard continues to uphold my townread of you.

Das cool and all, but duckling is scum still, dun miss that part of my post.

[Sando]

i consistently get worried when people don’t use their vote to pressure players,

I find this hard to believe when you are completely ignoring the worst absolving himself when I flip town right in front of your face.

How is duckling absolved?

[Sando]

who did titus pick in her team?

ive

been paying attention so of course i know the answer already... ... ... but im testing whether any of

you

been paying attention... ... ...

I know she picked me, Math, FA I think? And she’s claiming Ank. I don’t remember if there was a 5th or not?

Oh yeah, Shiro. So 4/5 accounted for and the 5th, conveniently dead.

Claimed Ank, Nancy, Shiro, Math, FA and

Drixx

. When challenged D3 said that tried to submit too many so removed Drixx.

[Sando]

If Stun fun is right on his reads then scum!Titus intentionally gave all the PRs to town.

That would make a lot of sense with how no one seems to be fucked with.

It also makes sense that Ank was killed over FA if they expected something.

I am thinking a majority of scum aren’t in the townreads. That means scum are probably in the inactive posters.

They made Titus leader in order for her to try to salvage it.

Decent chance of this.

In terms of the medium-ing clearances. Scum FA requires Shiro and Drixx being scum and probably both of those tricking Cerb...ie this is incredibly unlikely. Scum Titus could be with scumShiro and they've used the stuff with Cerb today to create the setup for a believable fake-link with Ank tonight, or Scum!Titus knew they had 2 nights to kill all the mediums so we can never confirm with Ank tomorrow.

Is there anyone like Drixx is for Cerb that can confirm Ank tomorrow? Probably just say "yes" if there is and not help scum with their kills.

[Sando]

Why does scum FA require Shiro + Drixx?

Well the assumption is scum!FA didn't give Cerb powers, medium!Shiro can confirm this and out FA, so Shiro kinda has to be scum to FAs scum to go along with that plan. Cerb could still have confirmed he didn't get the power, or refused to answer the questions put to him and/or lied to out Shiro, so FA+Shiro can't get away with it unless Drixx is also scum imo.

That all assumes scum!FA didn't give powers to Cerb and hid one somewhere. Of course, scum!FA could have just given Cerb powers and killed him. In that case you're just regular scumhunting FA and there is no mechanical pros/cons for that that I can see. That's fine, just doesn't convince me.

[Sando]

Why does scum FA require Shiro + Drixx?

Well the assumption is scum!FA didn't give Cerb powers, medium!Shiro can confirm this and out FA, so Shiro kinda has to be scum to FAs scum to go along with that plan. Cerb could still have confirmed he didn't get the power, or refused to answer the questions put to him and/or lied to out Shiro, so FA+Shiro can't get away with it unless Drixx is also scum imo.

That all assumes scum!FA didn't give powers to Cerb and hid one somewhere. Of course, scum!FA could have just given Cerb powers and killed him. In that case you're just regular scumhunting FA and there is no mechanical pros/cons for that that I can see. That's fine, just doesn't convince me.

Basically what I'm saying that in the gambit of "Leader doesn't give powers to someone they claimed and kills them instead", FA can only have done that with Shiro+Drixx team imo, Titus can do it with any other scum in the team I think.

[Sando]

what about shiro and sakura hana? i’d be cool with that

fa would you be alright with sakura? or do you have a better suggestion?

As Sando has pointed out, Shiro is dead man walking unless we save him but we can’t risk him picking Titus. So, I say that unless Shiro agrees to remove Titus from her superhero list, the best thing for town would be to vote him for leader and lynch Titus. However, if he is willing to eliminate Titus from his superhero pool, then we can wait to resolve Titus D4 but he has so far been frustratingly stubborn in clinging to his bad Titus read, so I don’t see what choice we really have.

We have to ensure Shiro’s safety in the game but we absolutely cannot risk him picking Titus.

We could give a 3 person leader team including Shiro, then base the votes off Titus flip.

If Titus flips town elect X and Y
If Titus flips scum elect Z and Y

Getting Shiro leader if we're confident of a townread is powerful, allows for immune use of medium.

[Sando]

i would like to see shiro’s conftownness myself, because i’ve been null on that slot ever since i replaced in. i feel like that would be game-breaking if scum kills him

Exactly, so you see why we have to elect Shiro leader but guarantee he won’t pick Titus.

There's one way to ensure Shiro doesn't pick Titus...

[Sando]

i’m not going to bank on shiro not picking titus tbh with you

i’d probably be stubborn myself with giving my townreads, and no one else but them, pr’s if i had the opportunity. then again, townreads tend to be a strength of mine when based off solid reasoning (sakura and sando case are the only ones i can back up for this game).

I'm a terrible person to power up tbh, beyond just being scumread, I'm much more useful for someone like FA to use me as killbait. My townflip will give you huge information, so FA directing onto me both protects her mechanically and in terms of being targeted in the first place since Scum don't actually want me dead anymore, especially overnight and not securing a mislynch.

[Sando]

We can’t risk Shiro picking her though for obvious reasons. I would prefer to resolve Titus D4, if Shiro promises not to pick her but if not, we have no choice but to lynch her.

We under no circumstances can risk Shiro dying and the only way to ensure that is to elect him leader. I guess what I’m saying is if he won’t back down from bad Titus pick, we have to lynch her.

If we elect Shiro tonight he can't stop us lynching Titus tomorrow (or any day tbh), only way to stop us lynching Titus at some point is to elect her leader.

[Sando]

How is FA scum here? She’s one of the most obvtown players in this game.

Not saying she's scum, saying that if you want to accuse her of not giving Cerb powers, Shiro and Drixx basically have to be scum with her.

[Sando]

Why are we talking about Shiro picking Titus if we resolve Titus D4? Current leader is FA not Shiro

Because we have to send in D4 leader picks N3, BEFORE we can find that out.

Yeah but if we elect Shiro tonight and lynch Titus tomorrow, Shiro can't pick Titus in his heroteam.

[Sando]

My point is that I can see a world where scum mass dump Frozen Angel ensure she is leader.

Then she gives town powers and watches as chaos ensues.

That is what I am scared off especially since she took phasing (per her own words) and not BP.

Yep, you're 100% right, that world could definitely exist.

I'm saying that's classic scumhunting (not a bad thing) and there's no mechanical reason to believe it (not indicative of right/wrong, just a statement). I personally think FA is town due to regular ol' reads as well though.

[Sando]

wow. again i’ll assert that it should be obvious you’re town. no scum in their right mind is going to discourage a player from giving them a pr. this is so town, so let’s not ever lynch this please.

I hate to WIFOM, but that's not the town indicative part of my post. I'm a "pull strings from vanilla" type of player as either alignment. Me wanting FA to use me as a human shield however...that's not something I can see scum really wanting. I'm happy to die, I'm not happy to waste a mislynch on myself. Me flipping gives you a LOT of information to scumhunt, I'd rather you get that via "saving" someone like FA than mislynching me.

[Sando]

how does a lynch of you give us information specifically regarding all the players on your wagon though? they all seem lurky to different extents, with maybe the exception of titus.

When I say Duckling is scum, I'm really, really, REALLY not joking.

[Sando]

i don’t think you are, and i happen to agree that it’s likely he’s scum.

Ima be very disappointed if duckling isn't dead instantly post my flip.

[Sando]

You mean the constant diversions and vanishing when he's the topic of conversation but hyperposting making the thread unreadable when I am?

Wat? Vanishing? When?!

[Sando]

You mean the constant diversions and vanishing when he's the topic of conversation but hyperposting making the thread unreadable when I am?

Wat? Vanishing? When?!

Beetlejuice.

Point to any diversions or vanishing...have fun with that scum.

[Sando]

if we keep titus alive based off shiro plus ank, then we should similarly keep sando alive based off ankamius’s late vote on sando until we hear more from ankamius, right?

which means katsuki might be a decent lynch after all

Scum are likely just delaying game at this point until I become like Mylo was yesterday, the only viable lynch.

[Sando]

kokichi and creature happen to be frustrating reads for all, but gun to your head, @sando where are you placing them? town or scum?

Creature as town. Kokichi...urgh...seriously gun to my head, Town, but I'm not happy about it.

[Sando]

kokichi and creature happen to be frustrating reads for all, but gun to your head, @sando where are you placing them? town or scum?

Scum creature doesn't survive to end-game with this player list, just don't give him powers and you'll be fine reading him.

[Sando]

Would you lynch Katsuki then? While I don't trust you, I wanna see what happens if we both jump and trust Ank to verify us tomorrow.

Fuuuuuuuck no Ank doesn't clear you OR me. I'm not just lynching a second troll-lurker as a counter-wagon to me, we're currently seeing what that ensures for tomorrow.

Don't trust me? Go answer my question about how I've vanished or created diversions then.

[Sando]

Would you lynch Katsuki then? While I don't trust you, I wanna see what happens if we both jump and trust Ank to verify us tomorrow.

Fuuuuuuuck no Ank doesn't clear you OR me. I'm not just lynching a second troll-lurker as a counter-wagon to me, we're currently seeing what that ensures for tomorrow.

Don't trust me? Go answer my question about how I've vanished or created diversions then.

I'd quote vanishing but the whole point is there are no posts to do that with.

The whole Shiro cannot give Titus a power is a diversion.

Second, Ank would verify I gave him a power. Are you scared of what Ank says?

How about tell me WHEN I vanished? That's like saying I can't prove someone is lurking because they haven't posted, that's just idiotic.

I didn't bring up the Shiro/Titus power, and diverting from what? I'm not avoiding anything, I'm posting about that AND everything else.

Because Ank doesn't prove you're town, Ank just disproves one theory about you being scum. Ank can prove you're scum (potentially), Ank can't prove you're town.

[Sando]

Yeah, you can't prove someone is lurking by quoting a post. Why did you ask me to?

And it may not have been you. You have partners creating noise and diversions for you to hide behind.

So, you're admitting that Ank saying I am honest and picking near universal town is not enough? Seems like this is a strawman. Like there's no amount of meta or vouching or anything. This is a vendetta atm.

Do you think Ank would actually say anything helpful at all? Or are you just not wanting to compromise and actually consider alternatives?
I am willing to consider the possibility I am wrong. I know my flaws.

Holy actual fuck, you honestly want to make a case that I'm "disappearing", and when confronted about that, you think the excuse of "well I can't quote you doing it" should just give you a pass? This has got to be the worst argument/case I've ever heard...ever.

Oh, so I'm not diverting, but my partners are? Which ones?

So your entire case is that I "disappear", which you refuse to show times when I've disappeared, and that my partners apparently divert conversation for me.

Holy shit that's just so so bad.

Yes Ank would be helpful, where have I said otherwise? I've been scumreading you since D1, the idea that I'm scumreading you because Ank died is just laughable. I'm still interested in whether you sent powers elsewhere, which Ank can confirm for us potentially.

Your case is absolutely terrible, you are making absolutely no sense regarding game-mechanics, you're scum.

[Sando]

Nice goalpost move.

I am not convincing you you are scum. Lol.

I don't know who they are due to spam levels. I can recognize a pattern without knowing who is responsible.

Also, you aren't admitting the truth. Ank verifies my honesty, thus towniness.

What goalpost move? You argument is terrible. Tell me where I've "disappeared", just say it, don't quote it. Notice Drixx has disappeared, note I don't need to quote anything to make that statement? It's not that hard.

Ok so I'm scum because diversion of topics, but it's not me doing it, it's my partners. So you should be able to at least tell me what topics are being diverted from/to?

Ank verifying you gave them powers says you are more townie than now, yes, I've never said otherwise. It doesn't CONFIRM town you. Yes, I will 100% still scumread you if Ank confirms you gave them power, you're just so blatant at this point.

[Sando]

@Sando, Let's see here.Why do you care to know if I gave Ank a power or not? Because I am impossible to mislynch if I gave him one?

Because I'd like to know how many N2 powers are out there...especially given the talk about zero-heroteam tonight and the implications that has for things like negation.

This is what I mean, your case is fucking horrible, and you have no concept of the game mechanics going on.

[Sando]

@Sando, Let's see here.Why do you care to know if I gave Ank a power or not? Because I am impossible to mislynch if I gave him one?

Because I'd like to know how many N2 powers are out there...especially given the talk about zero-heroteam tonight and the implications that has for things like negation.

This is what I mean, your case is fucking horrible, and you have no concept of the game mechanics going on.

No, you are having zero common sense and obscuring via mechanics. This is a fucking simple game. Less noise, straightforward talk. Assume rational actors.

Then, when you get data points, game is easy.

As scum, you just hope people get pissed with me.

Oh look, you divert away from the fact that you have no case.

When did I disappear?
What topics have been diverted from by my partners?

[Sando]

And you divert back to the circular argument.

Like I said, you vanish when people talk about you being scum. Can't quote air.

Diversion to ridiculoys bop argument.

I feel stupider for having to read this idiocy, so thanks for inflicting that on me...

How is it circular to ask you what your case on me is? You want me lynched, show a case.

You don't need to quote to point to where I've vanished when people talk about me. Show where people talked about me and then just say "Sando vanished", it'll be easily proven/disproven. You're desperately trying to wiggle out of this.

Diversion from what again?

Honestly, this is, without a doubt, the stupidest case I've ever seen on someone. My faith in humanity has been seriously questioned by just how stupid this is.

VOTE: Titus

Kat's a bad lynch today, I'm a better lynch than Kat, my flip hands you Titus and Duckling on a plate, I don't see Kat's handing you anyone regardless of flip. Titus is a far better lynch than either of us.

[Sando]

Sando go have a squizz at open 733 if you're bored (just finished, I was scum and it was a short game).... I actually think you're wrong!town here but your idea of how I approach a game as scum is off point

I'm basing it off how you approach the game as town, which you're very, very clearly not doing here. Last time I got this wrong you were PR trying to hide, you're not that here.

[Sando]

Sando is a mix of poe and taking other people's opinions on the matter.

Whose opinions? Who has even posted a case on me since FA yesterday?

[Sando]

Sando I still feel is town who is just carried away and playing worse than he usually does but the quantity>quality is real af

You've still never actually posted a reason for your vote on me. You got called out for it and now you've backed off and want people to forget it.

pedit: If I'm right about my paranoia D2 so help me fucking god dude...

[Sando]

ASKING you guys to stop with the circlejerk

What's the circlejerk here?

[Sando]

You didn't feel lucid enough. Everything I read from you was going on about mechanics and crap and I know that's a strength of yours but it is never alignment indicative. I poked the bear and hey guess what you're goodposting so I'm happy.

Nope.

a) It is, go read my scumgame and if it's available read the scumthread, I don't mechanics talk nearly as much as scum. Open 730.
b) I've been scumreading Titus since D1, and scumreading you all today pre push. You seriously want me to believe that you think I'm divergent enough to warrant a meritless vote that you wouldn't back up, but I'm stupid for calling out you for the changed behaviour?

Nope nope nope.

I gave reads, they've barely changed. My argument with Titus is significantly worse than anything I've experienced in Mafia up until now (including Quick, yes), and the fact that she's not dead for it and I'm still about to get lynched says this site aint for me.

[Sando]

ASKING you guys to stop with the circlejerk

What's the circlejerk here?

sort by postcount

Yeah I did that earlier today, I'm fairly aware that the postcount in a 250 page thread is high...what content is circle-jerky?

[Sando]

show me what any of you have accomplished this day phase and i'll show you something that could have been resolved in 80 less pages

And yet the two main lynch targets make cases on each other and no-one comments, cry me a river.

[Sando]

show me what any of you have accomplished this day phase and i'll show you something that could have been resolved in 80 less pages

And yet the two main lynch targets make cases on each other and no-one comments, cry me a river.

Sando, talk to me here bro

Go...Read...Titus...vs...Sando...

[Sando]

Would you lynch Katsuki then? While I don't trust you, I wanna see what happens if we both jump and trust Ank to verify us tomorrow.

Fuuuuuuuck no Ank doesn't clear you OR me. I'm not just lynching a second troll-lurker as a counter-wagon to me, we're currently seeing what that ensures for tomorrow.

Don't trust me? Go answer my question about how I've vanished or created diversions then.

I'd quote vanishing but the whole point is there are no posts to do that with.

The whole Shiro cannot give Titus a power is a diversion.

Second, Ank would verify I gave him a power. Are you scared of what Ank says?

How about tell me WHEN I vanished? That's like saying I can't prove someone is lurking because they haven't posted, that's just idiotic.

I didn't bring up the Shiro/Titus power, and diverting from what? I'm not avoiding anything, I'm posting about that AND everything else.

Because Ank doesn't prove you're town, Ank just disproves one theory about you being scum. Ank can prove you're scum (potentially), Ank can't prove you're town.

Yeah, you can't prove someone is lurking by quoting a post. Why did you ask me to?

And it may not have been you. You have partners creating noise and diversions for you to hide behind.

So, you're admitting that Ank saying I am honest and picking near universal town is not enough? Seems like this is a strawman. Like there's no amount of meta or vouching or anything. This is a vendetta atm.

Do you think Ank would actually say anything helpful at all? Or are you just not wanting to compromise and actually consider alternatives?
I am willing to consider the possibility I am wrong. I know my flaws.

Holy actual fuck, you honestly want to make a case that I'm "disappearing", and when confronted about that, you think the excuse of "well I can't quote you doing it" should just give you a pass? This has got to be the worst argument/case I've ever heard...ever.

Oh, so I'm not diverting, but my partners are? Which ones?

So your entire case is that I "disappear", which you refuse to show times when I've disappeared, and that my partners apparently divert conversation for me.

Holy shit that's just so so bad.

Yes Ank would be helpful, where have I said otherwise? I've been scumreading you since D1, the idea that I'm scumreading you because Ank died is just laughable. I'm still interested in whether you sent powers elsewhere, which Ank can confirm for us potentially.

Your case is absolutely terrible, you are making absolutely no sense regarding game-mechanics, you're scum.

Nice goalpost move.

I am not convincing you you are scum. Lol.

I don't know who they are due to spam levels. I can recognize a pattern without knowing who is responsible.

Also, you aren't admitting the truth. Ank verifies my honesty, thus towniness.

What goalpost move? You argument is terrible. Tell me where I've "disappeared", just say it, don't quote it. Notice Drixx has disappeared, note I don't need to quote anything to make that statement? It's not that hard.

Ok so I'm scum because diversion of topics, but it's not me doing it, it's my partners. So you should be able to at least tell me what topics are being diverted from/to?

Ank verifying you gave them powers says you are more townie than now, yes, I've never said otherwise. It doesn't CONFIRM town you. Yes, I will 100% still scumread you if Ank confirms you gave them power, you're just so blatant at this point.

[Sando]

also please don't tell me to find anything in this thread I've read like 80%+ of it and I like 99% will prolly not go back down the rabbit hole

It took me all of 30 seconds to ISO myself and bring up the 3 most relevant quotes.

[Sando]

I did and it half burned my eyes, half made me read you pretty strongly as town and think Titus' treatment of your slot was gross as shit

talk to me about why you think I'm scum here.

I've said why you're scum, there's an ISO button right down thar:

wait, sando. what made you townread the worst at this point? and what’s made him look scummier since your townread of him?

I know the worst fairly well, and was confident in reading him. I was also very aware of his game commitment issues at that point (I think I called someone out for it really early game even) and was giving him a pass on inaction. He plays very similarly to me, we both get very engaged with the game and riff off other people, I was personally seriously struggling with that D1, and most of D2 tbh, outside of a few names I'd have struggled to read most of the playerbase. I think this was due to the large player count throwing me off (apparently my read of number of kills is off because of that as well), and not knowing anyone really in the player base.

You can see the engagement happening in my play, you can't see the engagement happening in ducklings. My read-lists are getting longer and more in-depth and I'm more active with p.much everyone. Duckling isn't, he's being surly and a bit whiny with me, which is very out of character for him, and generally not being engaged.

D1 I was giving him a pass for things others were accusing him of, and I was confident of being able to read him later game, hence the TR.

I also just flat out refuse to lynch duckling D1 pretty much every game anyway, including the first game I played with him.

More specifically, as stated at the time, your vote on me was gut wrenchingly disgusting.

[Sando]

@Sando I think your read on me will calibrate. Check my last finished scumgame it's a quick read. I'm capable of emulating the qualities you look for in me as scum pretty well

I'm sure you are capable of a much better emulation of your town game than this...I didn't say it was a

good

scumgame from you. But your push on me doesn't correlate with your towngame at all, in content or in style.

[Sando]

you're less tunnelled than I thought

How was I tunnelled? You voted me and I pointed out that it was a terrible vote and vote for you a few days...when I asked you why you voted me I got this:

Duckling is scum here btw, and that vote was disgustingly obvious there buddy

why is worst's vote scummy but not mine?

Iso both of you, ctrl-F "Sando" and it's really, really fucking obvious

oh are my reads not allowed to change

fuck my bad, I might be on the wrong forum

And when I pushed back, I got literally nothing from you. That's NOT your towngame, your towngame looks much more like you are now. You can claim you were unengaged or whatever, but you absolutely do NOT come in with an L-3 or L-2 or whatever vote on the top wagon, and NOT when it's me. You've also been on every wagon going whilst also claiming to be completely unengaged.

[Sando]

can we just lynch titus and sando

this isnt difficult

This is what you sheeped onto me Duckling...this.

And you wonder why I'm not TRing you

[Sando]

I don't mechanics talk nearly as much as scum. Open 730.

Open 730.

Open

my dude

Zzzzzz, your desperation to take everything I say out of context is noted.

@Sando I think your read on me will calibrate. Check my last finished scumgame it's a quick read. I'm capable of emulating the qualities you look for in me as scum pretty well

Here I've been saying Duckling is nowhere near his towngame and he's told me to look at his latest scumgame, for reference, it's

Open 733

.

Everything I read from you was going on about mechanics and crap and I know that's a strength of yours but it is never alignment indicative.

Here he claims that mechanic spec is not AI.

It's only then that I respond with my previous scumgame.

So you think it's stupid to look at other types of games for meta, but you'll pick up me for responding in kind to duckling doing it (with no prompting) whilst ignoring him.

Just...so bad. If you're so insistent on a scumread, at least read the damn thread.

[Sando]

advocating a ton of majority lynchwagons (sando, titus, and even stungun), dodging questions like bullets, and refusing to explain WHY he voted myloninja last day phase.

Not mentioning anyone in particular, but this is what it's felt like, that people have deliberately tried to avoid taking a position and were trying to run out the clock on my lynch. It worked yesterday on Mylo.

[Sando]

Why are you still obsessing so much about the worst? He isn’t getting lynched tonight.

I'm attacking Nos...sorry for defending myself against someone deathtunnelled on me for 2 days.

[Sando]

So it seems to me, discussing anything else right now but A) Who do you want for leader? And B) Who do you want to lynch, is a distraction rn.

I'm happy with either of the two, I'll vote the lowest of the two, we need to get over 3-4 for scum not to mess with us too badly, well technically 6-8 if scum manage to stack themselves on one.

I'm on Titus...I've made much hay of this fact.

[Sando]

Sakura (6): Math, Nancy, Nos, stungun, Creature, hebichan
Mathblade (3): Sakura, Gamma, FA

if sando confirms, then 4 for mathblade

I was planning on just waiting till EOD and voting within the 2 on the lowest, but as long as we get 6-8 on each I don't really care. I have a personal preference, but that takes backseat to not letting scum fuck with us (again).

Can I also point out that Titus scumflip would mean we should be looking preeeeetty closely at those who claimed to miss deadline N1.

[Sando]

*they kill the other townplayer they do not have votes on

would assume we also get a different leader

Suffice to say scum can try to mess with us, I think we should do what we did yesterday and assign people to votes equally, not enough time today though I imagine.

@Nancy, we don't have time to properly do and get people to agree to it (giving people a set votelist), but we could just put the list of people voting for Sakura and Math together and hope people follow it?

[Sando]

I love the idea in theory but like...... if we pick t/s for the leaders we end up with a scum leader 100% of the time. it just feels like there should be a more optimal way to do this.

When we picked we ended up with FA, when we didn't we ended up with Titus...which one of those was better?

This seems optimal, doesn't make it perfect.

[Sando]

Don't really see scum quickhammering. That's like holding up a sign saying "hi I'm a filthy scumbutt"

So is fakeclaiming a guilty but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sando]

Nancy, this is a wild goose chase, what motivation does Ace have to lie about something that you can easily find on Ank's ISO.
If Ace is scum is not for this reason.

He's been misrepping etc the entire game and not catching heat for it, the idea that he'd suddenly avoid it because it's easily disproven is silly. He fakeclaimed for gods sake, he doesn't care about being caught in a lie/misrep.

[Sando]

It lays map for him to follow in case the deviate from it because they are scum.

You don't get to talk to Cerb once night falls correct? He dead-dead never to rise again?

[Sando]

If we TR FA enough to stack leadership on her we should trust her to pick less than 5 imo

[Sando]

Seems like a few things in there Shiro where you're reading her as town for NOT doing something to you that she's doing to others. You claim she could have pushed someone hard and tunnelled...are you saying she hasn't on me?

[Sando]

Well that's just stupid

[Sando]

Creature (6): zMuffinMan,

the worst, Titus, Toogeloo, Nosferatu

, stungun0404

Holy shit this is ugly.

[Sando]

i’m legit scared creature will be a mislynch if we vote out there... but also scared we’ll miss an opportunity to vote him out again if he’s scum. like ugh @ this dilemma

Creature gets easier and easier to lynch as scum, why is this a concern to you?

[Sando]

Are you townreading Creature? Answer without referencing me or my wagon.

Slightly ya.

[Sando]

Are you townreading Creature? Answer without referencing me or my wagon.

Slightly ya.

what's towny about creature?

@sando

It looks more like his town game than his scum game...it's a gut read and not exactly strong.

How the fuck are people following Titus onto Creature? Titus literally said you can't show lurking because you "can't quote air", yet here she is, wanting to lynch Creature.

[Sando]

We all know Creature is lurking bc we can't quote his posts. Lol.

No he's not.

*Waits for Titus to show Creature lurking*

[Sando]

I get the gut creature read. that's what my gut says as well. but my gut is also saying the way titus is behaving rn is town. so what do.

Yeah...because you're going SO FAR out of your way to only read the last 12 hours of game. Titus acts like scum 95% of the time and you read the 5% and go "yeah well that's town right there".

[Sando]

Shiro was baiting the mislynch to avoid getting killed I think.

VOTE: the worst

Add "the worst doesn't forget to vote for leader N1" to previous case.

Titus got elected by scum and then they "missed deadline" to hide the vote, seems fairly obvious.

[Sando]

didn't several people claim to vote Titus itt? like I just woulda claimed I targeted Nancy again or some shit. the scary part is that your case feels like a scumcase but the rest of your play seems fine. like you've abandoned all concept of nuance when attempting to read my slot and it's bordering on insulting how little you think of my level of skill. >_>

No nuance in what I was saying yesterday?

You're just upset I avoided a mislynch and killed your buddy instead.

[Sando]

like you've abandoned all concept of nuance when attempting to read my slot

You seriously want to accuse me of no nuance when you put me to L-2 or L-3 with absolutely zero reasoning and then flat out refused to provide reasoning until my mislynch was off the cards. You're hilarious.

[Sando]

I find this to be really odd. I am getting LAMIST pings
Did you make a big case in everyone else or just Shiro?

I find it odd given it really, really wasn't hard to just say "lol Shiro is pretty obvious scum" after that Titus flip. I think that was the entire point of the craziness from Shiro (and what I think they meant by "you won't like it"), but everyone saw it, it didn't need a massive case.

[Sando]

2) A case like that does nothing of the sort. It shows you took time which is not alignment indicative.

Yes it is, it's scum indicative, although pretty low in a game this size and type. People often won't take the time to put that sort of case together overnight because decent chance they die and the effort is pointless, or that their target is going to be dead.

[Sando]

Creature's probably scum tho.
His meta points to Creature scum, and me saying that Titus was busing Creature and she invoking her meta leads me to think that was her intention.

I don't know Titus' meta well enough to comment on this specifically, but obviously the plan was to mislynch me yesterday, and it was a bit of a free-for-all once that fizzled. Would scum really look to bus to save Titus at that point?

[Sando]

Sando (7): Nosferatu, Creature, Kokichi Oma, Toogeloo,

Titus

, Sakura Hana, the worst, Gamma

I've added Gamma who L-2's me between counts, but this is the meatiest my wagon gets.

[Sando]

like you've abandoned all concept of nuance when attempting to read my slot

You seriously want to accuse me of no nuance when you put me to L-2 or L-3 with absolutely zero reasoning and then flat out refused to provide reasoning until my mislynch was off the cards. You're hilarious.

In the context of you desthtunnelling me and allocating zero time to understanding my play here? This is the definition of no nuance lmao

Bullshit.

wait, sando. what made you townread the worst at this point? and what’s made him look scummier since your townread of him?

I know the worst fairly well, and was confident in reading him. I was also very aware of his game commitment issues at that point (I think I called someone out for it really early game even) and was giving him a pass on inaction. He plays very similarly to me, we both get very engaged with the game and riff off other people, I was personally seriously struggling with that D1, and most of D2 tbh, outside of a few names I'd have struggled to read most of the playerbase. I think this was due to the large player count throwing me off (apparently my read of number of kills is off because of that as well), and not knowing anyone really in the player base.

You can see the engagement happening in my play, you can't see the engagement happening in ducklings. My read-lists are getting longer and more in-depth and I'm more active with p.much everyone. Duckling isn't, he's being surly and a bit whiny with me, which is very out of character for him, and generally not being engaged.

D1 I was giving him a pass for things others were accusing him of, and I was confident of being able to read him later game, hence the TR.

I also just flat out refuse to lynch duckling D1 pretty much every game anyway, including the first game I played with him.

Duckling doesn't coast through games like he has and not engage with people
The idea that because other people have voted me he shouldn't have to post reasoning is pretty lol
Duckling has played with me quite a bit on open-queues, he doesn't naked vote me out of no-where and play dumb like this

Scum came into yesterday with the plan to lynch me, came into today wanting to discredit me. You said yourself I'm NOT tunnelled:

you're less tunnelled than I thought, still think you're awesome <3

[Sando]

Possibility anyone redirected onto Shiro btw? FA seems unlikely given leader protection (not sure how that would work anyway), but Math and Sakura? I haven't tracked PRs close enough to know if this was possible.

[Sando]

FA have you / will you announce superhero team from last night?

[Sando]

I can only imagine the amount of BS flying around if Shiro were alive and had been negated...I imagine scum would see the same potential, so if scum had it I'd say it was Titus that had that power.

[Sando]

I can only imagine the amount of BS flying around if Shiro were alive and had been negated...I imagine scum would see the same potential, so if scum had it I'd say it was Titus that had that power.

Titus cannot have Power Negate unless Math is scum, both confirmed to each other to have precog

Scum have daychat, Titus could have given powers to another person who picked up precog and was feeding info through scumchat.

[Sando]

I can only imagine the amount of BS flying around if Shiro were alive and had been negated...I imagine scum would see the same potential, so if scum had it I'd say it was Titus that had that power.

Titus cannot have Power Negate unless Math is scum, both confirmed to each other to have precog

Scum have daychat, Titus could have given powers to another person who picked up precog and was feeding info through scumchat.

This just isn’t a thing lol.

I can confirm I have precog if this is really a paranoia people have especially since I can’t be killed tonight if we lynch (which we should). Titus pretty much knew what power I would take if put up so she used me to try to “townfirm” her and flipped her shit when I didn’t I only confirmed she used the ability. She said she would be “townfirmed” by Ank which again made no sense. Her plans were about making her look good.

The way Titus shaded me means I think I can figure out which gambit she was running or she tried to slander me hard because I generally have a bias towards scumreading her.

Ok seriously, after 3 days of being told I'm a moron for mechanical talk despite calling Titus scum D1 because of it, can we please take a moment to actually consider what's being said?

I'm NOT saying it was YOU feeding Titus info. I'm saying that Titus could have not given Ank powers as claimed and instead given person X powers instead. Person X could then take Precog and have given Titus the precog outcomes to her in the scumchat. This means that there's not guarantee that Titus had precog just because you confirmed she knew the precog'd powers.

I was in no way speculating that it is you that is scum feeding her info. It's an option, but no more of an option than 90% of the playerbase imo.

[Sando]

It’s also way too risky a scum move for Titus to make.

Taking negation I can't see any risk outside of role-cops later, and can run the exact same manipulation scheme at you.

That said also perfectly reasonable for Titus to take precog and someone else to take negation, but if I were scum with negation, I'd have left Shiro alive and negated.

[Sando]

Which means they wanted to keep the confusion about ank not having power/didn't really want ank around/didn't believe we might mislynch shiro/just wanted to have a safe kill in people with powers

Yes, and if they had power negation they could have negated Shiro and left them alive with a really "convenient" failed medium to deal with. Hence I don't think scum have negation atm.

Shiro was the safest hero-kill for them though, yes.

[Sando]

So working from this list

Creature

-- Likely mislynch

Drixx

-- Was left off the list per Titus's claims but moonlogicky possible on N2 but I doubt it

Frozen Angel

-- on the list
Gamma Emerald
hebichan
Katsuki
Kokichi Oma

MathBlade
Nancy Drew 39

-- Both of us on the list
Nosferatu

Sakura Hana

Sando
stungun0404
Theta Alpine
the worst
Toogeloo
Toranaga

So someone in this list

Mafiascum is super slow for me atm so I'm gonna be back later and hopefully it's better.

So your reasoning for FA being wrong about it being a crapshoot to work out the person Titus gave powers to instead of Ank is to make a list of the alive people that weren't in the Titus list and also remove Creature because of mislynch potential?

FA - If I had a gun and 2 bullets you could have one.

[Sando]

Toranaga, Ankamius, Cerberus v666, Nancy Drew 39, Shiro N1
Titus Ank Nancy FA Math Shiro N2
Mathblade Sakura Shiro drixx nancy N3

Those are the powered people by night.

[Sando]

Sorry add FA to N3, I quoted her list in my notes and forgot to add her to it.

[Sando]

btw please take the wagon as a compliment.

So what really happened there?

Scum spent all day trying to get me lynched instead of Titus and when that failed they flailed onto wagons like you to desperately keep their superhero Titus alive.

[Sando]

Ah Sando Deathtunnelface still in fine form

Says the guy that didn't notice FA confirmed she picked negation

[Sando]

I'm tryna post thoughts as I have them rather than reading thru 10 pages getting to the end and being like "OH HOLY FUCK GOD NO MY EYES" I hope that's acceptable

Just sayin', I'm keeping up and engaging in lots of things, whilst also posting why you're scum. Kinda the opposite of a tunnel, where I would ignore everything to get you killed. No hard feelings, I know you fucked up yesterday and this is just what you gotta do, discredit everything I do and say against you as tunnelling. To be fair, town are bad enough here to buy it, all power to ya.

[Sando]

Succinctly what is your worst case again?

Most of it:

wait, sando. what made you townread the worst at this point? and what’s made him look scummier since your townread of him?

I know the worst fairly well, and was confident in reading him. I was also very aware of his game commitment issues at that point (I think I called someone out for it really early game even) and was giving him a pass on inaction. He plays very similarly to me, we both get very engaged with the game and riff off other people, I was personally seriously struggling with that D1, and most of D2 tbh, outside of a few names I'd have struggled to read most of the playerbase. I think this was due to the large player count throwing me off (apparently my read of number of kills is off because of that as well), and not knowing anyone really in the player base.

You can see the engagement happening in my play, you can't see the engagement happening in ducklings. My read-lists are getting longer and more in-depth and I'm more active with p.much everyone. Duckling isn't, he's being surly and a bit whiny with me, which is very out of character for him, and generally not being engaged.

D1 I was giving him a pass for things others were accusing him of, and I was confident of being able to read him later game, hence the TR.

I also just flat out refuse to lynch duckling D1 pretty much every game anyway, including the first game I played with him.

Duckling doesn't coast through games like he has and not engage with people
The idea that because other people have voted me he shouldn't have to post reasoning is pretty lol
Duckling has played with me quite a bit on open-queues, he doesn't naked vote me out of no-where and play dumb like this

The true paranoid part of me also notes that the D2 push on me was while I happened to be overseas and couldn't read/respond to anything. Only one person on site knew that definitively, duckling.

My post-Titus flip addition:

Add "the worst doesn't forget to vote for leader N1" to previous case.

Titus got elected by scum and then they "missed deadline" to hide the vote, seems fairly obvious.

[Sando]

uhh I felt like every time I saw SANDO'S posts they were just an endless wall of mechanics.

Here's why this is bullshit:

Oh. I took Titus' post as being more concerned with the scum team selecting someone who *isn't* on their team.

Maybe, my 4 was merely an indicator that that's the max scum-votes they can put on scum, and it's how many FA seems to have gotten.

But assuming scum coordinated (I assume they coordinated in some degree) they:
Conspired to ensure their votes were split
Conspired to elect someone they wanted to elect

If they conspired to split their votes then I don't see us getting any out of it today, so I'm assuming Titus is looking at conspiring to elect someone (town or scum). If they conspired to elect, they either put 1-2 people on a popular person, figuring that'd push them over the edge, or they piled on figuring they could lie about it today.

If they're lying (which seems a reasonable bet if you think they conspired to get FA elected, regardless of her alignment) then the biggest tell for that is going to be when they declared. Doubt they wanted us to KNOW they were lying, so they likely wanted FA to appear as having the most votes, without giving away everyone that voted her. So they needed to know 2nd places number of votes and the number of town votes on FA before knowing how much they needed to prop it up.

Basically, of the people that declared for FA, the most likely ones to be scum are the late declarers.

Titus has started the speculation but not actually dug into it, which I don't like.

Note the post #, I voted Titus a couple of posts later based on this logic. The idea that I've simply been talking mechanics for the sake of talking mechanics is just flat out bullshit. I used it to get a strong SR on Titus D1 that I rode all the way through to EOD3.

[Sando]

Is the worst coasting this game?

I can answer if you want

I sorta know the answer but it'd be more ethical for someone else to answer.

He was, ISO me + him to see when he suddenly becomes "engaged".

Hint: It's when I vote him for naked 180 voting me to L-3 after TRing me all game.

[Sando]

Dude seriously. I wanna be lynched today and when I flip town here post-game I want you to realise that your stubbornness is killing you and that you're absolutely awful at reading me.

When have you seen my stubbornness hurt me?

[Sando]

If y'all get tired of Toogeloo wagon I have another wagon in mind.

Whatcha thinking?

I want to keep it a surprise.

Sorry can't help, currently 100% for voting scum this game, need to keep my perfect record

[Sando]

Dude seriously. I wanna be lynched today and when I flip town here post-game I want you to realise that your stubbornness is killing you and that you're absolutely awful at reading me.

When have you seen my stubbornness hurt me?

Right now lmao.

Also I wanna say grits SEO but you were really obv town he just had a short fuse. that shot was pants on head bad lmfao

Is this honestly the best you've got on my stubbornness hurting me?

[Sando]

Yup. Still want you to own it post-game W H E N you're wrong :3

Sure, no doubt I'll eventually get a read wrong this game.

But yes, I'm happy for us to to leave this to post-game. You're not actually addressing anything I've posted, you're just resorting to silly posts like this and it's getting annoying.

Yeah I briefly read it, you're much closer to that game than your town games I've seen. You match neither, but you're closer to the scum imo.

What about "your vote on me makes no sense" do you not understand? I'm not completely sure but I don't think you've EVER voted me before in any game.

Would you like to try and put my "duckling doesn't not vote for leader" into the context of 733? Or can we maybe agree that meta isn't a 1:1 thing?

[Sando]

mmkay as long as you're tunnelled with a tiny bit of context you're likelihood of teaching the right conclusion is marginally higher. I'm not sure cramming that kind of obscure mechanic into a mini open game necessarily works but do you have a read on me forgetting to vote for leader?

That's my point...I'm saying you're not the type of person that forgets to vote for leader. I'm obviously not saying that from experience, I've never played with this mechanic with you before (or anyone) so I'm obviously not saying "well I remember last time we played this duckling voted every single night". I'm quite clearly taking the knowledge I have of you as a mafia player and extrapolating that into what I'd guess your actions to be. It's a guess, but it's educated.

Take into account that we had a scum-leader elected N1 by the barest of margins and a person claiming not to vote that night that I think is likely to be conscientious enough to always vote becomes awfully convenient.

[Sando]

anyone trusting me enough to go me/fa as leader votes today?

Honestly I think it's about time we start looking at making the most of the leaders protection ability (allowing them to investigate in some way) rather than playing purely defensive with the picks. But then I've been against a 3rd instalment of FA for a few days now.

[Sando]

So um why am I not in the running for scum among those who forgot to cast an n1 vote? I don't think anyone has named me for suspicion because of being in this category, and I'm kinda disturbed by how everyone is just overlooking my presence. Do people just not think I exist this game?

I accused you of scumminess with the vote on me yesterday, don't feel too left out.

It's not that you're not, it's that:
a) I tried to find the post detailing everyone who missed the vote but failed, so I didn't know you didn't
b) I noticed duckling when it happened because it stood out so much to me that he would do that, but it was a Titus-flip thing so I didn't feel the need to mention it before today
c) I don't chat to you on discord about mafia and get a general vibe for how you'd play

Also given your play here it would not surprise me at all to see you genuinely forget to vote.

[Sando]

So I am thinking Sakura Nancy FA Drixx and myself for powers.

It’s pretty much the core block and if you need SS take SS if you need BP take BP.

+ Stungun404

That completes the power list

Then I am thinking Sakura or Drixx for leader.

List(s) seem fine to me, all I was gonna say about your original list is it should include the leader picks, which you've now outlined which is fine.

Consider who in that 5 you'd drop for other leadership choices though. I think Sakura should be a leader choice given we agreed to that yesterday and nothing has changed, but people might not be thrilled about Drixx (I'm fine with it).

[Sando]

Also given your play here it would not surprise me at all to see you genuinely forget to vote.

This interests me (and also makes me feel mildly insulted but w/e). Explain?

You're posting rarely but in big bursts. Looking at your posting it's basically all in bursts, there's little back and forth throughout the day. You're not engaging in a direct manner, you're catching up and posting all in a burst, then off you go for another day. Not that that's a bad thing, but I can see you missing a day and bam, there goes your voting deadline.

Compare that to duckling (or me) and we'll engage over a longer period. Sure we're about to go to bed (me and duckling are in basically the same timezone) and won't post for 8-10 hours, but once up we'll respond to things said to us within a pretty short period.

In my view, the people who check-in and spampost their days content are more apt to miss a big event if something comes up for them causing them to miss a day, than those who tend to follow the thread in real-time.

[Sando]

I mean I do miss days but that's not why. I forgot because I didn't get anything to remind me to other than the one post at the day end. As for why I'm posting like this it's because I post at a library where I only get 3 hours free of computer time (1 dollar for 45 extra minutes)

It's not a personal thing, I'd say the same about FA, she operates in much the same manner from what I can see. Just that if something comes up that kills those 3 hours then that's 48 hours between posts, while I pay lower-effort attention over a longer period so knocking me out for any length of time is basically impossible.

"Forget" was probably the wrong term, but yeah I'd believe that sending a PM was beyond your effort range at a point in time than I would for me or duckling, based on how we tend to post.

[Sando]

@sando, where do you stand on toogeloo’s alignment atm and why?

Scumlean.

I don't mind the analysis of 129 leading to me, but if your strongest two scumreads are for the same reason and a cursory glance at D2 would show we're not partners, you either need to re-evaluate your read or delve into us in-depth to justify one over the other. Toog aint doing that, is lazy way to read only a very subsection of the player base. Also, the reasoning that I was strongly suspected D1 but not mentioned by 129 doesn't really stand, I wasn't particularly scumread D1, that was a D2 thing onwards.

sando, are you still scumleaning on toogeloo?

this answer is looking good in relation with him being a main wagon today — even though you are voting tw!

Yeah definitely still scumleaning him. I tend to assume the douchebro "lol look at me I can be a snide lurking dick" attitude comes from town, but there's SO much of it this game that I can't see there not being a scummer in there, and Toog most definitely the scummiest of those.

Also the whole "don't want to catchup" is just stupid by now, Toog was around for the massive Sando -> Titus -> Kat -> Titus D3 wagons, there's no need to re-read to have opinions on that.

[Sando]

Im having some issues with my IP and Spamhaus apparently, talking with my ISP to try and solve it, but for the time being im pre-emptively going V/LA because i cant post without a VPN until this is solved. I can still read however.

Do we need to sort out another leader option for tonight?

[Sando]

I'm dissapointed that the people that have posted didnt answer my question, I even bolded and everything so it was harder to miss.
Also i think this is town Nero so far.

You, mostly because you were an option last night and aren't the leader now.

[Sando]

fuck off and die.

LOL but why tho

Don't you lurk and do shit all as town?

No he fakeclaims a guilty

[Sando]

The take away from this is never underestimate how demotivated a replacement can be to read a fast moving game.

You haven't followed the game since replacing in either though.

[Sando]

The reason toog is scum is because:

- his defense of titus

- his questionable leader vote

- molla being scummy when he was in game
- lieing/shading and misrepresenting me

Not him not focusing on game enough. That is something he started telling us starting today by constant whining about the game speed

Toog has had a number of easy ways to help town without needing to engage, and has refused to take those every time. Leader vote is perfect example, happy to sheep a scum onto me, but not happy to go along with a plan that literally everyone is onboard with. Can't claim not to be caught up, addressed it specifically and refused to play ball.

[Sando]

When we talk about "free" kills with the bomb, imagine if Titus had bomb yesterday. We were <12 hours from deadline, Titus could have just blown up Math/Sakura and suddenly we've got a couple of hours to get another lynch done or our leader is on the chopping block overnight.

[Sando]

I'm talking the selected people would detonate within the first like 7 days of the phase or be lynched.

Each Day Phase after lasts approximately 7 real life days.

You you might want to flesh that one out a bit more...cause that's a terrible idea.

[Sando]

Math I assume I can't ask the mod yet, so I'm asking you, does the self detonation count as a night action? Could a scum use BP overnight and then blow themselves up safely the next day do you think?

[Sando]

one issue with the plan is that these scums get night kills instead of bomb and decide to kill us before we can lynch them all.

They're tomorrow nights powers anyway, we're talking about a plan post 2 more lynches and 2 NKs, and presumably people like duckling and toog arguing they should be left alive until then AND taker a superhero slot.

[Sando]

this is basically what I'm anglin' at @Sando

It's a pointless conversation today, I'd consider it tomorrow but I'm not basing today's lynch off it.

[Sando]

When we talk about "free" kills with the bomb, imagine if Titus had bomb yesterday. We were <12 hours from deadline, Titus could have just blown up Math/Sakura and suddenly we've got a couple of hours to get another lynch done or our leader is on the chopping block overnight.

very good loophole to point out

this is a potential trouble of the bomb plan

We just require them to go off at night on a predetermined target or it is a scum claim.

Problem solved.

I'm sure there's a way to do it, but do we want to put this in the hands of someone that claimed to forget to vote N1?

Oh sorry guys I forgot to submit that last night, should I still do it? Oh it's like 60-40 that I should still do it, not sure it's a great idea. Oh look yeah but we've been talking for 4 days maybe it's too late in the day, tonight I promise!!

I have faith in so few people this game to actually act rationally here, putting a requirement of the majority of town players acting rationally in a short period of time...colour me sceptical

[Sando]

the quality of your townhunting has dropped tho lol like your case on me is "I don't understand it must be scum"

want spoilers?

@the worst, if there is anyone in our current scum pool outside yourself that you would bet the game on being town, who would that be, if anyone? and why?

Doubt I'd bet the game on anything rn. Sando is probably town tho ig. Who else is in the pool?

Hi pot, meet kettle.

[Sando]

This day is still going, and almost 10 more pages to boot?
What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Shhhhhh, no-one cares about you being an edge-lord.

[Sando]

We can have 5 suicide bombers?

6 technically if we want the leader to do it as well.

[Sando]

We can have 5 suicide bombers?

6 technically if we want the leader to do it as well.

5 is plenty.

What happens when someone designated to die claims not to have been given a power?

[Sando]

Duckling, Nos, Toog are my top 3, doubt very muchly that they're all scum though.

Gamma is a fair bit outside that group but a scumlean.

Kokichi probably my 5th.

[Sando]

guess you're not supposed to include Toogeloo

Wait me? I was responding to Nero, not supposed to include Toog?

[Sando]

Yeh, top five besides Toogeloo

Oh boo, throw in Theta then.

[Sando]

Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose.

voting someone for attacking Titus. Anyone notice a pattern yet?

To be fair lots of

idiots

super smart people did this to me D2 and D3. Why Drixx in particular? Is two enough for a pattern here?

One thing I noticed was Drixx wasn't in the D3 push on me, whilst being the main antagonist early D2 (before FA took up that mantle late D2). I found that inconsistent with the overall scumplan D3, which was getting me mislynched. You weren't in game so you kinda just have to take my word on that (cause fuck trying to actually follow a non-ISO reread), but what's the scumplan from Drixx+Titus there assuming my assertion is accurate?

[Sando]

Here was my D3 wagon at it's biggest:

Sando (7): Nosferatu, Creature, Kokichi Oma, Toogeloo,

Titus

, Sakura Hana, the worst, Gamma

I've added Gamma who L-2's me between counts, but this is the meatiest my wagon gets.

This was my wagon most of D2:

Sando (3): Nosferatu, Drixx, Gamma Emerald

This was the vote-count that I think was the last point I was close to being lynched D2, after this a few jumped on Mylo and it was EOD and he was the only option:

Myloninja13 (8): zMuffinMan, Sakura Hana, the worst, hebichan, Kokichi Oma, Shiro, Toranaga, Nancy Drew 39

Sando (6): Nosferatu, Gamma Emerald, Frozen Angel, Titus, Ankamius, Creature

Gamma/Drixx had similar arguments on me, that I was purely mechanical over content etc, Nos had a slightly different take from memory, but his fake-guilty sums up the quality of his arguments tbh.

End of D2 I was overseas so it's hard to read into, FA can give insight I'm sure. FA led the counter-wagon to Mylo, Gamma and Nos were pretty happy about that. Titus jumped on with poor reasoning but her reasoning was bad all game. Ank had borderline scumread me for a while and preferred me over Mylo I think, and Creature was...Creature.

The Day3 was pretty pre-planned, I think scum knew Titus was on the chopping block and I was the target mislynch before they would think about bussing. Nos fake-claimed a guilty and provided no other content on me D3. Literally no-one in that list for D3 before Gamma provided a lick of reasoning, Gamma provided little when he L-2'd me but had previously provided plenty. Titus provided probably the most lol-worthy reasoning I've ever read, but other than that they were mostly naked votes.

[Sando]

I did not led any counter wagon to mylo I was trying to get sando lynched.

I was trying to say you led the wagon on me end of D2, which was an attempt to get someone you saw as scummier than Mylo, pretty sure you even said that. If counter-wagon is a different term sure, but seemed appropriate.

[Sando]

I'm absolutely down for this--isn't there a chance you could just die tho?

I am not gambiting to try to avoid getting killed, i am 100% doing as i stated so if i die, there's 3 options.

A) Scum was in tonight's list and got SS too.
B) Math didnt actually give me a power and so i couldnt SS.
C) Scum has a way of bypassing impenetrable skin on their own.

Negation?

[Sando]

Sando, thoughts on Drixx?

I can't quantify his D3 (in)action around my wagon as scum, hence I'm townleaning him for now.

[Sando]

I did, responded here:

Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose.

voting someone for attacking Titus. Anyone notice a pattern yet?

To be fair lots of

idiots

super smart people did this to me D2 and D3. Why Drixx in particular? Is two enough for a pattern here?

One thing I noticed was Drixx wasn't in the D3 push on me, whilst being the main antagonist early D2 (before FA took up that mantle late D2). I found that inconsistent with the overall scumplan D3, which was getting me mislynched. You weren't in game so you kinda just have to take my word on that (cause fuck trying to actually follow a non-ISO reread), but what's the scumplan from Drixx+Titus there assuming my assertion is accurate?

When I look at what happened D2 and D3, the basic gist relating to Drixx was:
- Drixx SRs Sando and votes him vast majority of D2.
- Drixx happy to go along with wagon end of D2.
- Scum come into D3 with pretty clear plan (in hindsight) to lynch Sando
- Drixx never joins Sando wagon D3.

Considering this, I would have expected Drixx, as a prime Sando-antagonist, to join the plan to lynch me D3 as scum. He didn't, I don't know why scum-Drixx wouldn't join that wagon D3.

[Sando]

With 17, why are we risking putting all the eggs in the Sakura basket, even if we want Sakura as leader?

Why not 10-6 (one being lynched) split? Sakura still gets elected unless being killed, and scum can't mess with us.

[Sando]

Because we can’t control the voting and with Sakura arming herself with SS bp, we need to ensure as many votes as possible on her, so scum can’t pull any funny stuff to derail her getting elected leader.

Why not? We can assume town will follow the plan and we build in enough buffer to stop scum messing with it.

This is why Toor's anti-leader thing yesterday/last night is so anti-town, it's breaking towns efforts to organise this sort of thing.

[Sando]

nd39, why are you so adamant about shutting this line of discussion down?

I want to ensure Sakura is leader. Sakura’s leadership can only really be jeopardized by vote splitting, if not enough people vote. She was supposed to be leader today but likely lost to voter complacency. I want to prevent that from happening again. What do you find so difficult to understand about that?

We're building in a buffer that makes it slightly less likely Sakura will be leader due to lazy town but protects us from scum-fuckery.

You'd agree scum would like to kill Sakura right? We don't

think

it can happen, but we've been wrong before. If it happens and we don't have a fallback, we're kinda fucked.

[Sando]

no nd, 8-8 split last day phase means sakura was not necessarily supposed to beat math

That’s probably because not all the promised Sakura voters voted. I think splitting the votes just makes it easier for scum to mess with the voting, since Sakura arms herself with SS bp tonight.

So put the most conscientious townies we can find on the Sakura vote-list.

Not accounting for Sakura dying is just stupid of us. We only need ~9 voters to basically guarantee that Sakura as presumptive leader can't be fucked with, we should use the rest of our votes to protect ourselves from death, not to put more eggs in the basket.

[Sando]

it would require 4 people supposed to be on sakura to be voting the contingency in order to make it a tie

Yep, and assuming we mislynch today we've still only got 3 scum alive. Hence why Toor's "lol not going along with the plan" is so anti-town.

Build a 4 person buffer between Sakura and person A, scum can't pick person A over Sakura without giving us huge information (minimum 2 were in the vote-list).

Build a 4 person block on Person A and scum can't kill Sakura and vote a third person in without giving us the same huge information.

We would need a 6+ vote buffer to absolutely guarantee it and we don't have that many, but we can certainly make it hugely risky for scum to mess with it.

[Sando]

oh i have something to add then
my slot was unable to submit a vote last night due to being replaced

So Math won with a max of 8 votes?

Interesting, anyone else on Math want to fess up on not voting?

Anyone on Sak want to pre-empt this with a fess-up to not voting?

[Sando]

why would you do that though
if sakura dies and the contingency does not become leader in my plan
then at least two of the people who were supposed to vote the contingency are scum

Are you talking to me? Because I think we're in violent agreement here.

[Sando]

stungun: sakura, kokichi, nero cain, the worst, hebichan, nosferatu

is there anyone with serious objections to this plan?

Theta is right, we should have 4 people on the contingency person, one of whom we TR enough to trust to NOT vote in the case of a scumflip today.

Protects us from all but a scum-gamethrow fuckery, and if they want to gamethrow, awesome.

[Sando]

Mainly Sando and a couple others were against leader repeats. So I was trying to do what I thought best for the gamestate.

One thing to consider is you need someone at least notionally onboard with your bomb theory.

[Sando]

Are you okay with FA again?

Like there are very few people who are actually universally townread whom I trust to follow the plan.

Better than no-one, not my first choice, but it's only backup anyway.

[Sando]

Sakura: mathblade, nancydrew, toranaga, stungun, frozen angel, sando, gamma emerald, creature, drixx, the worst
fa: sakura, kokichi, nero cain, hebichan, nosferatu, theta alpine

how about this? simple!

Make FA's voters: Sakura, Nero, Theta, Sando

Everyone else Sakura.

I'll not vote in the event we lynch scum. I think this gives us the best compromise between "must get Sakura" and defends us from scumfuckery.

[Sando]

I also want FA to catch up and give thoughts before I vote. She's been busy, unless she's fine with the day ending and catching up during the night.

I think FA should stay off the lynch to help us with determining tiebreakers.

Actually that's another reason NOT to have FA, she loses tiebreakers I think. We're talking low enough numbers for that to matter.

Or add Stun back into the list that I gave for FA voters.

[Sando]

nero and me will be voting fa alongside sakura
sando will vote sakura if toog flips scum
or fa if toog flips town

??? How do you know what other people will do depending upon what Toog flips?

I'm the trusted one. Generally TRd and engaged enough to trust not to go rogue and not vote or vote someone 3rd party.

[Sando]

Can you point me at when the plan changed from me as the backup leader candidate to someone else, why that happened and who pushed for it?

It went from:
1) 2 people including you as one getting roughly equal votes
2) Sakura and only Sakura (pushed mostly by Sakura)
3) Sakura gets vast majority of votes with someone as a backup getting a small amount of votes (pushed by my forcefully, along with Theta and some others)
4) Same as (3) but FA is the backup, pushed by Math.

I dunno who pushed (1), but I felt like you not being backup was fairly organic once (2) happened.

[Sando]

@Math: Did nobody really just sit and think about it yet?

We mostly said "this can't even happen until Night 5, why are we bothering with this now?", and then people just kept going around in a circle-jerk about how good an idea it was.

[Sando]

1.) You really should go look at Space Dandy 2 if you want to understand why I would try and calm shit down when Titus is being wound up. That shit was unpleasant.

My problem with this is that D1 I was doing nothing of the sort. Here's some of my early posts:

It's Titus' seeming confidence that they coordinated to elect FA and then not taking that to its logical conclusion that has me worried.

Titus has started the speculation but not actually dug into it, which I don't like.

And then here is my only vaguely antagonistic post towards Titus D1, which is countering the idea that FA should pre-claim her superhero team:

She won't be leader day two.

But that leaves us where day 1?

Same predicament. I try to sort my theory. Get jumped. Try to create ideas that remove scum advantage. Get jumped. Like I get disagreeing with mh random theory and wanting to sort me but at least sort me and try to bring something better than out the PRs d2. It does nothing to solve d1.

I don't understand what you're even trying to argue here

FA has no accountability D1. If I try to find who might be scum buddying FA, I get voted by all those who selected FA as leader. Thus negating my ability to find who it is. I get voted for being "incompetent" for trying to find a solution to scum possibily buddying FA.

The forcing FA to claim day 2 does nothing for Day 1. Scum already likely get their hooks in.

So what's your idea to stop FA from giving PRs to scum that are charismatic?

I think it's likely numbers because of the major pushback there.

UFO is just basically being UFO. Cerb was second place according to claimed votes, so he's probably buddied. That leaves numbers.

Wat?

Why do you need something for D1? For starters, this is the best chance for us to scumhunt, afaik we can't string up a town PR since they don't exist yet, and you could string up a scum PR since they might exist. That's great for town! Only scum should be scared of D1 lynches.

Scum!FA giving scum powers is going to have to justify that in the coming days, for example, giving it to you when you're being reasonably widely scumread and not really townread...if you turn out to be scum then FA is on the chopping block.
Town!FA is just as motivated as anyone else to give it to townie, making it open firstly gives scum a say that they otherwise wouldn't, and narrows down the scum-kill to guaranteed PRs.

FA claiming D2 is flat out better than D1, D3 would be nice if we think we can get that far, we'll see.

In all cases I was right and in all cases Titus was working a clear scum agenda. I was never winding her up for no town purpose, and I don't see how I'm being abusive in any way. The push on me D3 on the other hand...

[Sando]

Ummm ... didn't we already go over the part where I literally just relied on my memory and am fairly sure I meant to push someone else over it?

Like ... it's not really relevant WHO is abusing WHOM. Ever. Even if it's someone I personally don't care for on the receiving end. I'm going to say something. Now I almost feel obligated to go re-read a large chunk and see exactly what it was that seemed abusive to me and whom it came from ... except that person

probably

already got the point and I'm not sure how productive it would be to rehash that particular bit of ground yet again.

Except you're responding to a case from Nero where he specifically pulls out your reasoning for voting me, that I'm winding Titus up for no benefit and associating that with abusive play.

[Sando]

Just for the record: Titus did not put me on the team or give me powers or anything. I think a town!Titus would have given me a power choice 99 times out of a 100 given the game state at end of day and the very high likelihood that she gets roped today. Especially with Cerb already dead. I also would have expected a scum!Titus to do so as well and try and convince me she's town and to help her avoid getting roped; however, I can also see scum!Titus trying to play at level 2 and take advantage of that expectation by not throwing me a power.

This is actually a pretty good look for drixx tbh

why would scum titus not give scum drixx power or to give him that secretly which would look bad for her. I can't see drixx and titus being a pair

Sorry what am I missing, why can't Drixx be lying about this?

[Sando]

Didn't he get some BP power though?

He got powers N1 and I think he said he chose medium instead of BP.

[Sando]

This would look extremly bad for titus. WHy would scum titus and scum drixx hide the fact that titus is giving a scum!drixx power or to not give him such power when she had him on her potential list.

1) Post set of 6 superhero team that can't possibly work
2) Don't give Ank powers
3) Kill Ank
4a) If Ank dies - "I totally gave Ank powers"
4b) If Ank lives - "Yeah sorry I could only give it to 5 so I dropped Ank"

[Sando]

Didn't he get some BP power though?

He got powers N1 and I think he said he chose medium instead of BP.

I was most definitely not on the team night one either. Did I wander into a parallel dimension or something?

I thought Nero was talking about Cerb.

[Sando]

still I can't see why scum titus would lie about giving scum drixx a power that night when it would make her look bad.

You mean why pick Drixx for this rather than a different partner?

Says it's less likely, but also says if so then Drixx was the only option they thought was believable for Titus to pick.

[Sando]

titus claimed a tr on drixx the day before and had him in his list. why would scum titus lie about not giving it to drixx when lieing about that was not beneficial for her and would actually make her look worse

How is it not beneficial?

Ank died N2, if Titus had admitted to not giving leadercandidate-Ank powers then I think she'd have been insta-lynched.
If Ank had not died N2 then Titus would have to be honest about not giving Ank powers, so she needed a plausible person to say she gave it to, hence the 6 person list.

You could always give it to Ank+Drixx but that reduces your chances of killing Ank, they could be pretty damn sure Ank picked Medium, but not sure Ank wouldn't pick BP N2 and use it then.

[Sando]

Oh actually you're saying drixx was her back up claim in case ank lived?!

Yeah, if Ank lives she needs to explain why Ank didn't get powers. Not giving to a leader candidate is bad, but no deaths, no harm no foul right?

I should probably stop saying "now you give X to Y" given you've been leader twice and could reasonably interpret it as actually directed to you

[Sando]

I should probably stop saying "now you give X to Y" given you've been leader twice and could reasonably interpret it as actually directed to you

what do u mean?

This would look extremly bad for titus. WHy would scum titus and scum drixx hide the fact that titus is giving a scum!drixx power or to not give him such power when she had him on her potential list.

1) Post set of 6 superhero team that can't possibly work
2) Don't give Ank powers
3) Kill Ank
4a) If Ank dies - "I totally gave Ank powers"
4b) If Ank lives - "Yeah sorry I could only give it to 5 so I dropped Ank"

I'm sure there's other examples, but I should stop talking about it in the first person perspective, it's causing confusion about what I'm saying sometimes. Nothing about content, just how I'm structuring my arguments and hypotheticals.

[Sando]

@Nero - Dude. Snark and rhetoric are NOT the same thing as abuse. Everyone who knows Titus (and Mathblade for that matter) knows how to wind them up personally. That's abuse. Me being tongue in cheek is NOT abuse.

Except you're accusing me of it, and I don't know Titus/Mathblade, I've never played with them. If you honestly thought it was me being abusive for scum purposes, hence the vote, you'd be honestly thinking that it was obvious from my tone that I was setting out to wind someone up. My posts D1 are clearly not that, they're perfectly friendly whilst scumhunting, something you yourself say is fine.

I was NOT being abusive. I wasn't winding Titus up, at all, let alone for no reason as you claim.

If you felt that Titus needed kid gloves, you had ample opportunity to say something, since I clearly did not know Titus. Instead you decided to scumread me and dismiss all of my points against her.

[Sando]

@Nero - Dude. Snark and rhetoric are NOT the same thing as abuse. Everyone who knows Titus (and Mathblade for that matter) knows how to wind them up personally. That's abuse. Me being tongue in cheek is NOT abuse.

Except you're accusing me of it, and I don't know Titus/Mathblade, I've never played with them. If you honestly thought it was me being abusive for scum purposes, hence the vote, you'd be honestly thinking that it was obvious from my tone that I was setting out to wind someone up. My posts D1 are clearly not that, they're perfectly friendly whilst scumhunting, something you yourself say is fine.

I was NOT being abusive. I wasn't winding Titus up, at all, let alone for no reason as you claim.

If you felt that Titus needed kid gloves, you had ample opportunity to say something, since I clearly did not know Titus. Instead you decided to scumread me and dismiss all of my points against her.

That is precisely what I’m trying to figure out and ironically getting scumread for it by Nero. XD

Is this sort of thing typical of Drixx’s play or is it scum indicative? What do you think?

I dunno really, never played with any of them before. Drixx's play around me in isolation strikes me as scummy, although I still can't wrap my head around a scum!Drixx not pushing the lynch on me D3. I can provide a scum motivation for most other things in his play, and the relationship with Titus, but not that.

[Sando]

So Titus gave power to a scummate instead of Ank.

N2: Titus > FA, Nancy, Shiro, Math, Ank (Ank died)

So one of Nancy, FA or Math is scum?

Lololol, Math is right. Is this a derp? Titus clearly gave the power to

someone else

.


Someone

hidden

, which probably why they killed Shiro.

Personally if it were confirmed Titus didn't give Ank powers I'd be looking pretty damn hard at Drixx right now. I don't see Shiro kill as a protection of "hidden" but protection of Drixx, it makes a lot more sense logically.

There is one other issue with that theory and that is "why wouldn't titus and her scumteam be afraid of some people having mediums?"

They'd already hit someone not BPing in Cerb who was fairly likely to Medium, they had a soft-claim of it in Ank, reasonable to assume they could wipe out or contain the mediums, which they did in fact do.

[Sando]

I did NOT vote the person I felt was crossing the line with Titus. That doesn't change the fact that Titus was being wound up intentionally. Anyone who knows Titus and goes and reads even a small part of day 2 will know that. I am thus a little bit concerned that a couple people are pretending like I'm insisting that the particular vote I made was tied to my reasoning. I wasn't even the least bit obtuse in admitting that my memory was incorrect and I voted the wrong person.

You literally said I was being voted because I was winding Titus up for no reason and making the game toxic:

Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose. There was no good motivation to do what you were doing. It was toxic to the game state and so you are either scum and you were doing it to try and get Titus chasing in circles (which would merit re-evaluating Titus) or you were town doing it and just not giving a shit that you were making the game toxic.

[Sando]

In post 9402, Sando wrote:
Personally if it were confirmed Titus didn't give Ank powers I'd be looking pretty damn hard at Drixx right now. I don't see Shiro kill as a protection of "hidden" but protection of Drixx, it makes a lot more sense logically.

Why does this point to Drixx?

Because Drixx was #6 who "didn't" get powers.

[Sando]

@FA and Math:

Can you guys stop taking such personal affront to people disagreeing with your plans or highlighting a way you could be scum (without actually saying you are, just positing that it's possible)? You're escalating it well beyond where these conversations need to be, people are allowed to have opinions, and you don't need to drive at people personally whenever they raise objections to your plans.

This latest between you two is evidence of it, but I and I'm sure many others have felt that visceral response coming their way and it's not a reasonable response from either of you.

[Sando]

@Sando: Thoughts on plans so far?

Power Echo seems very problematic, do we have a list of possibles?

[Sando]

@Sando:

Please stay out of this.

I'm not getting involved in "this", I'm saying that you need to tone down your responses to people who disagree with your plans. I was called paranoid, by you, earlier for suggesting that Titus was being fed precog info, and now you're presenting it as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. FA has called me crazy paranoid for discussing the idea that she let Cerb die without powers N1, and then it's now just accepted that Titus did that N2.

People have legit disagreements about mechanics here, it's pretty complex, you've been presenting the people who've disagreed with you as dumbies when (at least some of them) they're not.

[Sando]

@Sando:

Please stay out of this.

I'm not getting involved in "this", I'm saying that you need to tone down your responses to people who disagree with your plans. I was called paranoid, by you, earlier for suggesting that Titus was being fed precog info, and now you're presenting it as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. FA has called me crazy paranoid for discussing the idea that she let Cerb die without powers N1, and then it's now just accepted that Titus did that N2.

People have legit disagreements about mechanics here, it's pretty complex, you've been presenting the people who've disagreed with you as dumbies when (at least some of them) they're not.

oh math really called you paranoid for it? that's interesting because if someone was feeding titus precog info, there's an extremely good chance it was mathblade.

the 180 on the stance is really telling on math's alignment.

I'll dig into my ISO and find it, but yeah that was my impression.

[Sando]

how can scum even get power echo if Hana gives out the powers?

It was a power N3 and N4