Heroes Wanted! (Game Over)

[Drixx]

I voted Cerberus for what should be self evident reasons.

Gut reaction to FA being chosen is that we have a WIFOM loop: either FA is scum or scum picked FA because FA was a safe pick to pile votes onto.

Sakura Hana gets first serious FOS from me.

[Drixx]

Today is my wedding anniversary.

@mod: 48 hour V/LA please.

[Drixx]

Everytime I try to get engagement on my reads, I get ignored and tell me to plug my nose. What specifically should I do? Ignore charismatic scum possibility is not the answer.

Can you clarify this?

[Drixx]

I got the prodded. I'm going to stop trying to do an intensive read and just play from here going forward because the only way to get back into the saddle is to get back into the saddle. If someone wants my thoughts on something, feel free to ask but otherwise assume I have read about 10% of what came before this post.

Can someone drop a quick gist on me?

[Drixx]

I don't write cases unless I have to or feel like town is going to shit the bed hard if I don't force a lynch on one of my scumreads.

Okay ... so what would make you "have to", apart from the portion which you said after the word "or"? -- Also ... does said clause coming after the "or" trigger at the moment?

[Drixx]

The thing with the reads from numbers... that's not so hot looking.

[Drixx]

Now you got me interested.

[Drixx]

I guess I need to go diving on Titus now. I could see her doing this as scum and turning the WiFoM to her favor. I could also see several players in this list who would know putting Titus as leader right now would introduce a ton of confusion. And it has.

I think claims of who you voted for should stop and someone super trusted (FA seems like the best choice) to make an ordered list and have folks claim. There are a few good reasons to do this and the less said about them before we do it the better.

[Drixx]

VOTE: Sando

Just getting that out of the way and not part of a big wall of quotes.

[Drixx]

like you're literally lying about every part of my town meta to make your point go across. There are people here who have been playing with me recently and there are players here who played with me a year ago.

Nah, you're just too proud to admit your vulnerability when I tell it straight to your face. Oh well.

Like I got flaws too and you could lay back into me to ensure I pick town. We can hash it out. Or you can pretend that my criticisms of you are worthless pointless and everything that happens is a coincidence. I'm ok with either but I prefer being honest with you.

I'm just asking you to show me my vulnerability. I really want to work on it if it's real yet you bring an example that has nothing to do with you claimed about me.

I'm trying to. Your vulnerability is you don't scrutinize people being nice to you enough. That's it in a nutshell.

Now, lay into me. What should I watch out for? What's my blind spot?

[Normally, I would do this with Drixx/Cerb but...]

This went on for way too much. As someone who is friend to both of you:

FA: You literally gave an example of exactly what Titus is trying to say about you. Math got you to back off by treating you a certain way. That's a pattern for you. I didn't see anything from Titus where it was meant to have a go at you. It is good to know the things about yourself that you might otherwise overlook.

Titus: Basically everyone active in the game is telling you to stop with the focus on just one tiny aspect of the game. At the moment it's NAI to me, because town!you would pick at this particular scab (especially with some who are intentionally antagonizing you and keeping you focused on it) and scum!you would gladly take the cover others are providing. You don't really

need

anyone else to point out where you're hurting yourself and the game state.

And if you really do ... I'm here.

stop spamming the fucking thread with shit nobody cares about thanks

stop fucking quoting massive walls and writing 1 line responses

jesus fucking christ

This post makes it look like you don't actually want to be playing forum mafia. Like ... if you think content coming from a certain slot is worthless to you, then just scroll right on by. No need for this crap. This ends up making me wonder if you're just making posts like this for LAMIST or something.

i'm policy lynching the shit out of titus if i'm alive tomorrow

and i won't be moving my vote either

that's a fucking promise

That would be a really good way to get me (and probably others) to decide you need to eat rope. You cannot wind someone up and keep pushing them and then invoke policy lynch on them because they took your bait. It's dirty play.

titus, if you're town please talk about anything BUT the leader choice.

your leader choice was scum motivated and will likely be the main reason why you'll get lynched next gameday.

that you're even suggesting you were mostly a town motivated leadership is already outing behaviour.

your spat with FA is only clearing her further if you're scum, and tilting and antagonizing her if you're town.

This post feels like so much hedging from someone who is informed. Gut doesn't like.

I don't think we should spend the whole gameday dunking on titus though. it's annoying.

titus should not talk about leader stuff and be ignored when she does for obvious reasons.

if she is town we're gonna have 2 awful gamedays because of it. I have a hard time imagining anyone else getting lynched on d3.

This coming so soon after the prior post: all I'm seeing here is a narrative slip. How do you go from trying to reason with a person to get useful content and interactions with them (while repeatedly expressing the benefit of the doubt and suggesting you are willing to posit a town!Titus) to talking about them being so obviously scum that you're concerned the day will be taken up by people "dunking" on them.

Like ...

eight minutes

went by.

I have no idea how to get into this game lol.

Pick a spot. Start reading. Ask questions and make comments.

If you work it out lmk Mylo

See above.

yes, me complaining about you doing

absolutely nothing but

talking about the setup and me suggesting that it's stupid for someone like titus to have been elected due to a complete lack of co-ordination are things that are comparable

you're truly a spectacular player

@xoxoxoxox{[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

yes, me complaining about you doing absolutely nothing but talking about the setup and me suggesting that it's stupid for someone like titus to have been elected due to a complete lack of co-ordination are things that are comparable

you're truly a spectacular player

God you're bad. I mean keep saying I did nothing but speculate on setup, but talking setup to show why someone (Titus) is scum is not the same as "talking setup".

You TR'd me all yesterday, you bitched about setup talk while ignoring actual alignment posts I was making about people, and then today want to bitch about lack of coordination.

I had something else I wanted to say, but the pissing contest is too much of a turn off. Stahp it.

[Drixx]

oh, right, that reminds me. drixx is scum

OMGUS much?

[Drixx]

who did you vote for leader drixx?

The sad part is that you probably think you have some kind of "gotcha!" here. Whom I voted for is self-evident. You shouldn't have to ask because you should already know.

[Drixx]

oh, right, that reminds me. drixx is scum

OMGUS much?

titus, the worst, maybe drixx are where i'd look at first tomorrow pretty much regardless of the flip

LOL.

The flip is actually a pretty solid reason to look at me. Responding to me pointing out that he's playing poorly and hurting the game state by calling me scum is OMGUS.

But seriously ... Cerb being night killed early is literally always a reason to suspect me.

[Drixx]

OMGUS much?

do you know what OMGUS means? and do you think it's a relevant term that actually means anything?

If you weren't looking down your nose so often, your eyes might not hurt so much.

OMGUS = Oh My God You Suck

I'm familiar with exactly what it means, how it came about as a term used in mafia, and the traditional usage of it.

Responding to my point that your response to me pointing out that your toxicity isn't helping the game at all with an OMGUS style response "The player who just pointed out that I'm playing badly and harming the game state is scum" instead of responding, followed by more pedantic bullshit and toxic play ... probably not going to help your cause.

Either stop with the bullshit or don't expect any further engagement from me with you. I don't have time for the kind of people who make a regular habit of behaving the way you are behaving right now. You can decide to be an adult or not. Your choice entirely.

@Titus : Waiting on you. Don't let Pedants and assclowns stop you from playing a game.

[Drixx]

they barely interacted (except insofar as numbers quoted him in his first post and later drixx mentioned something about my point on numbers reads list that didnt make much sense and never amounted to anything). nothing to do with numbers really - just most of the active players are probably town and there's scum hiding in the lurkers with zero content

Outright lie by Muffin here. I complimented the point about numbers reads list and how the way it was "balanced" didn't look right.

[Drixx]

they barely interacted (except insofar as numbers quoted him in his first post and later drixx mentioned something about my point on numbers reads list that didnt make much sense and never amounted to anything). nothing to do with numbers really - just most of the active players are probably town and there's scum hiding in the lurkers with zero content

Outright lie by Muffin here. I complimented the point about numbers reads list and how the way it was "balanced" didn't look right.

I am totes cool with lynching this.

The point was that zMuffinMan has been pushing towards a lynch on me all day without any actual reasoning. The first "reasoning" he threw out was lumping me in with inactives ... except I'm here posting fairly regularly in day 2 so that doesn't hold up. So then we get the above quote? It's easy enough to read my ISO and see that I wasn't in any way defending numbers but actually was noting the point was a pretty solid one.

MM's response to me calling out his lie (which to me looks a lot like just being really lazy more than intentionally trying to fool anyone) was good.

Hebichan though? Not so much.

Remember Remember the 20th of ... well shit it doesn't rhyme. Just remember this. The game is stagnant as fuck right now. Cerb was killed for a reason. I'm being killed for a reason, and its not because I had a slow day one. This whole playlist knows me and none of you can honestly say you believe I go low activity as any particular role/alignment. You get what you get. In this case, you get me not having played much so I don't have the usual ten tabs of MS open calling my attention back to the site throughout the day.

But you know ... game is solved. Titus is scum and as a desperation move got made leader and all the rest of scum will be in that list who claimed they forgot to vote, so we win. Right?

[Drixx]

Math being in game almost makes up for Cerb getting killed out so fast.

Hi math. Please explain to people who lack objectivity that Drixx plays exactly as much as Drixx has time to play, regardless of his assigned role in a game. Because seriously the only argument I've seen against me is that I was low content in day one and like ... I had a posted V/LA for a large chunk of it. Of course I was low content. Duh.

Also ... I maintain that if I point out something that someone is doing which is bad play and harmful to the gamestate, and they choose as their response

solely

to quote me and say that I'm scum, then their reaction is a form of OMGUS. It's not relevant if they previously said "Drixx is lurking and I think he's scum". What's relevant is that instead of engaging with the substance of what I was saying, there was an "oh my god you suck/{are} scum" response instead.

That there is some tenuous ass threads to be trying to rope me on. Especially coming from people who know better than to push the shit they're pushing.

[Drixx]

Especially coming from people who know better than to push the shit they're pushing.

Like who?

Like almost this entire playlist knows me fairly well. Certainly well enough in most cases to know that "Activity is disconnected from alignment" is absolutely 100% the case with me. You can find both high and low activity games as literally any role or alignment I've ever had. It literally all comes down to what's going on in my life and how much time I can commit to this site, which is the only place I play forum mafia.

The only real "difference", per se, would be some changes in my life since I moved 8 months ago. I have more time tied up on a regular basis that used to be pretty much always time where mafia could fit. Explicitly:

1.) Involved in the local church music ministry. I teach and help run the handbell choir and just recently agreed to play bass guitar for services. That most recent has added Sunday evenings and Wednesday evenings to my time away from the computer, as well as whenever practices get held, which tends to be afternoon Sunday so now I've got Handbells followed by choir followed by band on Sundays. Pretty much has made Sunday kaput (and that's before my Adventurer's league table I run in the evening at the local game shop).

2.) Wife and I both have gotten involved in the local tabletop scene playing M:TG, Star Trek: Attack Wing, D&D and L5R, along with a variety of board games. That means usually Tuesday and/or Saturday I am checking in on the phone between turns or between rounds of a draft tournament or something.


But still ... activity never has and never will tell you anything other than how busy my life is. I think it's shit play to alter engagement based upon alignment. It borders on outright trust telling in my view. If someone can just tell that I'm one alignment or the other based upon how much I post, then I have ceased to provide any challenge or value to the game. (Setting aside whether I provide that much to begin with).

[Drixx]

Shiro has literally stated that there's 0 chance im telling the truth unless the mod lied... well i dont see this being advertised as bastard have you?
Yet she's willing to let potential scum get a super power?

I dont think Shiro actually believes there is a modicrum of chance that im not lying and just wants to chain up lynches
VOTE: Shiro

Btw, yes, im not a mason

Space Dandy 2. Mod statements seemed to make someone a liar. That person ended up flipping exactly what they claimed. Anyone who plays large themed regularly knows to leave some amount of reasonable doubt for

any

claim. I could make a list of games where having a bit of reasonable doubt would have saved town a world of trouble ... and that list wouldn't be a short one.

But I see you finally fessed up. What was the point when the mod was so clear about everyone starting vanilla and the assignment of roles being routed through the leader mechanic?

[Drixx]

Firstly: this push to make me the "compromise" lynch with the deadline rapidly approaching is bullshit. Nobody has put forward any valid reasoning (let alone sound) for supposing I'm scum. What

has

happened is a player list full of people who know how effective Cerberus and I are in how we play the game, as long as we're left alive to do our thing, has managed to have Cerb dead on night one and is somehow setting me up to be lynched on day 2 for literally no reasoning whatsoever.

ANY looking into my recent play history at all is going to show you that I moved ~9 months ago and haven't played much since, and that my play has been lower intensity since I've started up again. That makes the only "argument" I've seen against me a total non starter. Anyone who has watched me at work and seen me at work in large games should know that D2 lynching me for no reason is borderline brain dead.

Anyone who has a vote on me or puts a vote on me this day phase:

I have a small request, which should be no problem for you: Make a post that puts your ego on the line over your belief that I'm scum.

-- If you want to know what I mean, go look at the signature for Reasonably Rational. So far I'm seeing a bunch of horse shit and ya'll deserve to be quote shamed after the game if you keep on with it.

AS A REMINDER:

I am busy on Sundays (it's 2:24am on Sunday right now). I will have a couple of short time windows from my phone to post for the next 24 hours. Please refrain from doing stupid shit and ending the day before I can at least weigh in on whatever responses come to this post and whatever other crap gets posted while I'm busy.

not reading recent pages right now

just did a quick iso of drixx's recent posts

he's still scum

lynch him, thanks

No. Do something other than spam something obviously false.

What are your other reads? Because while I am alive Drixx should never be lynched.

I appreciate the defense, but you should be aware it has gotten to paranoia territory for me. Like ... you actually legitimately surprised me with a couple of your observations and I feel like I need to adjust some things I do as a matter of habit but ... yeah.

yeah, this is clearly not one of those mythical good games you apparently have

Are you actually capable of playing without being an asshole to other players? Is that like ... a possible thing? We're all somewhere along the way from "just got introduced to the game" to the eventual "I've learned how to spot the shit nobody can hide and this game has no further challenge", and I'd suggest most of us are closer to the start of that progression than the end. There just ain't no reason for you to be waving your dick around at everyone.

If I am wrong in my assessment of Drixx town I need to learn why. Especially since mafia is an associative game.

So please demonstrate how I fucked up.

It’s a major problem with mafiascum as a whole. Instead of helping we are destructive.

Post of the fucking year here. We have this great community of people who are on the whole quite intelligent and generally fun to play with and hang out with ... and instead of enjoying it we have to attack each other all the time? Like ... who the fuck cares who is the "best" or "better"? It's a game. If you are so invested in your relative standing in this community that you gotta tear into people to make yourself feel good/better/okay/etc., I would suggest you got bigger fish to fry.

honestly, i don't really care about showing anyone why drixx is scum if they're unable to read his ISO and see it. maybe if i was invested in this game or cared about the outcome i might try, but i'm not and i don't

if you link me directly to whatever you're talking about, i'll respond to that and tell you why you're wrong, but i'm just not interested in getting into an argument about it atm so if you disagree, i don't care

This is a horse shit post. My ISO simply isn't long enough for you to pull this kind of post. You could literally wall of quotes me and respond to every post I've made and it wouldn't take you more than a half hour, tops. Shit or get off the pot bub.

That alternate theory just doesn’t follow Drixx meta.

Just the obligatory reminder that relying on meta is dangerous, etc...

Everytime I try to get engagement on my reads, I get ignored and tell me to plug my nose. What specifically should I do? Ignore charismatic scum possibility is not the answer.

Can you clarify this?

Hi Drixx.

Everytime I tried to engage on numbers in a substantive way, I got attacked.

What I say about Numbers gets ignored except for 1 comment by worst.

Numbers is basically just parroting suspicions and not calling anyone town.

Got any thoughts please? Like I miss you. NAI miss you.

Drixx is like obvTown from this post alone

When I was being stupid/unclear in the hydra that was like his phrase.

Titus reads like gasping scum there

“Give me things so I can say other things that cause people to lose focus”

1212 — Can you clarify this? That is Drixx speak for “what the fuck you’re full of shit please go back and talk about it so I can help you”

no, it isn't

you're interpreting that incorrectly

Actually that kind of is me being polite. You only need to read the uncensored logs from Cerb and me in hydra together to see just how much I don't give a shit about being polite when talking with a hydra partner (and QED when thinking). I do try and be polite and civil to people who haven't already shown they aren't capable of it because I do believe that civility is a positive thing. But when I'm reading your posts and making notes ... I'm probably thinking/noting much closer to what Math said than what you see me say.

I just assumed most of us here were like that. The snark is strong among us.

Like I don’t understand how this connects with Drixx. I have known Drixx a long while. When Drixx gets fired up you’ll know it and see it. Like I see him scumhunting but that point was underdeveloped and I see him trying to form a town block. So I see your point (a tree) but I don’t see the forest

My point was I wasn't just disagreeing with Titus on setup, I was SRing her due to her follow up to that setup. I don't think it's valid as a defence of Drixx's vote on me, for Drixx and Gamma to agree about Titus' bad setup spec, and thus turn their gaze towards me.

I'm not saying Drixx is scum, I'm saying your reasoning for TRing him is faulty, and thus I also think SRing Drixx's accusers is faulty (for that, SR them for other stuff all you want).

Actually Math has really solid reasons for arriving at the correct conclusion about me. The level of certainty is something to keep in mind but the reasoning is sound.

And yeah ... you got the vote for reasons I thought I developed enough to be obvious. I'm posting more stuff each post and less frequently than before my break, which is mostly a function of the changes in my time at the computer. If you don't think something is clear you can ask.

FA/Toranaga/myself are all confirmed strongly townreading each other

I'd bet money Mathblade is town

I'm not convinced on Drixx myself until I have an opportunity to speak to him myself

The rest of the people I'm most interested in trying to lock are the green question marks

I'll look particularly for anything you direct my way.

[Drixx]

wow, that post was so obvtown, dont see how anyone would want to vote drixx after that

Oh hey! Sarcasm!

If you want something more from me, then stop pushing me literally without any reasoning and engage with me. There's a large player list here and the vast majority of them are skating by because you can't be bothered to actually give any reasoning for (or put your ego on the line for that matter) claiming that I'm obvscum. But you keep pushing that idea and saying its self evident.

So far today we've had you and Sando winding up Titus to get a bunch of distraction going and you dropping in (with help from a couple others to a lesser extent) and pushing me to defend myself instead of spend my time on other stuff.

So like I said: shit or get off the pot.

[Drixx]

let me quote the part of that post that was a legitimate attempt at sorting at least one player in the game...

huh? that's strange... what happened to his post...?

Let's see:

1.) It's actually a little scummy and worth paying further attention to the level to which Math has defended me since replacing in. Scum math can come up with good reasons to explain the alignment that scum math knows I am just as easily as town math could come up with that reasoning. That's a note of suspicion. That's part of the process of sorting players.

2.) Pointing out that your "I don't have time/it would be too much work" bullshit when asked to actually make a case against me is irrational and bullshit is calling you out and suggesting that your behavior is scummy.


Look at that ... sorting two people out without even having to go into implications or tangential thoughts.

[Drixx]

neither of those are conclusions you came to there and if you legitimately thought i was scum youd have voted me by now

PS please stop inundating the thread with so many reads and so much town content, we already see how obvtown you are

You obviously have forgotten how I use my vote. I'm irritated at your refusal to actually play the game and your insistence upon acting like a spoiled 3 year old, but that hardly merits a vote. I've asked and prodded and pushed you and even called bullshit to your refusal to actually give reasoning for a read on me. At some point, you will actually give some reasons. Or it will get close enough to the end of the day that I will conclude that we're better off without you, even if you are only behaving like a 3 year old and aren't scum, at which point you will get my vote and an actual push from my with why I feel the game is better off without you as you are currently behaving.

Or you could ... you know ... do what several people have asked and produce reasoning. Stand or fall on the merits of what you

claim

should be absurdly obvious.

Who knows ... you might actually have some valid (but unsound) reasoning there. Don't know till you actually stop with the bullshit and produce it, and lynching someone primarily to avoid dealing with the kind of stubborn bullshit you're demonstrating is not a measure of first resort.

[Drixx]

@Math, @Titus, @BBmolla, @FA, @Chickadee, @Random, @Shiro

: If you had to give one answer to what is the most notable thing about how I vote, what would it be?

There's exactly one thing which all of them will say.

[Drixx]

Apparently this somehow wasn't clear before - Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose. There was no good motivation to do what you were doing. It was toxic to the game state and so you are either scum and you were doing it to try and get Titus chasing in circles (which would merit re-evaluating Titus) or you were town doing it and just not giving a shit that you were making the game toxic.

Your response to being voted over it was the entire point of the exercise. Let's say I'm not exactly feeling great about your response.

@Math - Bullshit on the idea I shouldn't have a serious side-eye on you for the foreseeable future. Cerb and I were final scum in a game alone as final scum for months and in that game we literally played precisely how we would as town. We literally from the outset of the game all the way through made decisions and took actions that were what we would have done if we were town that game. It came down to someone deciding they would rather lose with us than lose to us in the LYLO we picked, because said person was unwilling to actually put in the time and effort to try and figure it out.

So ... if he and I can lay down a game where there is literally no possible way to logically arrive at any conclusion other than we were town ... so can you ... and you can probably do it with a lot less work than it took us.

[Drixx]

Vote: mylo

doubt there's enough support for drixx with derp squad defending him

At this point you just are better off as scum. The amount of cool and good people you are insulting. I'm gonna have to make a notepad file and just save up quotes from you for endgame. This is way beyond taking the piss at this point.

[Drixx]

Apparently this somehow wasn't clear before - Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose. There was no good motivation to do what you were doing. It was toxic to the game state and so you are either scum and you were doing it to try and get Titus chasing in circles (which would merit re-evaluating Titus) or you were town doing it and just not giving a shit that you were making the game toxic.

Your response to being voted over it was the entire point of the exercise. Let's say I'm not exactly feeling great about your response.

This is just pure BS from you.

Go back and read you and Titus in ISO from start of day 2. You are legitimately winding Titus up with no goal that I can discern. It's not only NOT BS, it's precisely how I always operate.

FA nailed it. I don't generally telegraph my thoughts early in the game. I will often appear as if I'm just reacting. If you take the time to go look at Cerb and I together in hydra, you will see what's really going on in my own notes and thoughts. I will usually have a bead on someone a long time before anyone knows it and be coming at it obliquely trying to get them to say/do something to either solidify or erode what I'm thinking.

Classic best example of that would be in SU1 where Cerb and I repeatedly had evaluations and tests going on people for long stretches of time that nobody in the main game thread realized were much of anything until we were sure and dumped thoughts.

I make no claims to being amazing at this game. I have some great games on my record and some terrible ones. But you can always be very certain that whatever I'm doing, there's a reason for it. Deliberate action is the point. Rational progression. Otherwise it's all just deciding and making up shit to justify the decision, and that's worse than useless.

Standard disclaimer that I'm not a perfect rational agent.

Also: Try harder. You're actually surprising me in the most recent dozen pages or so, and not in a way that I thought had much probability.


@FA: High five and all that. Who do YOU think needs to be the backup vote in case you get popped? You should also decide who is voting you and who should be voting the backup. Balance risk. I'm happy to give thoughts on folks who I don't think should be assigned together if you would find that useful.

[Drixx]

I'm gonna have to make a notepad file and just save up quotes from you for endgame

oh no... please have mercy...

If you insist. One wonders what you might actually do in this game if you stopped trying to be a world class troll.

[Drixx]

Go back and read you and Titus in ISO from start of day 2. You are legitimately winding Titus up with no goal that I can discern. It's not only NOT BS, it's precisely how I always operate.

i did. this is pretty obviously false. you voted sando in 2132 and the ONLY mention of titus from sando that you could legitimately argue comes close to this before that post was his first post (2065) and you'd have to stretch the definition of "winding someone up" pretty far to say that fits the description because that's just a read...

My notes show that I noted Sando down as winding Titus up to no discernible reason. I did put that vote before a wall of quotes, so there's a possibility that I really didn't make it obvious. But that

IS

the reason. Period.

[Drixx]

if winding up titus is soooooooo scummy, then i'm the scum lord, yet sando's rather tame #2065 is what made you vote him despite all the misgivings you apparently have with me?

haha yeah, i believe that

You are legitimately playing as if you were assigned Village Idiot and your goal is to get lynched and win the game. I cannot recall a single post you've made that was substantive AND wasn't trolling and/or over the top sarcastic. You are not targeting only one person with it, and even if I wanted to say that you are mostly targeting me with it ... there's a wild difference between what I can accomplish by checking interactions between two other people and what I can accomplish if you are targeting me with a trollfest.

I've already attempted to reason with you repeatedly to no avail. At this point you'll either stop or you'll become annoying enough that you'll get PL out of the game. That has way more to do with you than anything I can say so ... metaphorical ball is in your metaphorical court on that one.

[Drixx]

Go back and read you and Titus in ISO from start of day 2. You are legitimately winding Titus up with no goal that I can discern. It's not only NOT BS, it's precisely how I always operate.

I don't think I've ever actually directed anything towards Titus D2. All I really said was that she's continued along the lines of D1 and done self serving speculation, and I've pointed out that I think it fairly likely scum voted for Titus to be leader.

That's not winding up...

There's actually a non trivial chance (if your claim is correct) that someone

else

was the one winding up Titus and my brain wasn't braining and I noted your name as that person. That would be embarrassing a little bit.

Let's see what we see...

[Drixx]

Apparently this somehow wasn't clear before - Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose. There was no good motivation to do what you were doing. It was toxic to the game state and so you are either scum and you were doing it to try and get Titus chasing in circles (which would merit re-evaluating Titus) or you were town doing it and just not giving a shit that you were making the game toxic.

Your response to being voted over it was the entire point of the exercise. Let's say I'm not exactly feeling great about your response.

@Math - Bullshit on the idea I shouldn't have a serious side-eye on you for the foreseeable future. Cerb and I were final scum in a game alone as final scum for months and in that game we literally played precisely how we would as town. We literally from the outset of the game all the way through made decisions and took actions that were what we would have done if we were town that game. It came down to someone deciding they would rather lose with us than lose to us in the LYLO we picked, because said person was unwilling to actually put in the time and effort to try and figure it out.

So ... if he and I can lay down a game where there is literally no possible way to logically arrive at any conclusion other than we were town ... so can you ... and you can probably do it with a lot less work than it took us.

@Drixx — I said you SHOULD be paranoid of me.

I also said you were reaction testing.

I don’t get where I said you shouldn’t.

And I have disagreed with you several times on the whole “I did what I always do as town bit”, People don’t. That is a fact. When you squash some differences newer smaller ones always emerge. So much so even professional liars convince themselves of their reality to try to help or just don’t speak. I get that you believe that but the answer is you’re different as the alignments and I can see it. And you can choose to scumread me for it. However that doesn’t change the fact you were different in a noticeable way.

It’s your belief you’d have acted the same and buddied me but the evidence says otherwise. Similar to how people think they would act one way but psychology tests/hidden cameras show another.

I maintain what I said and I still think you are town but if anyone thinks their games are 100% similar needs a reality check. I have been working on mine for decades and got it close but there is about 5 people on MS that just know instantly what alignment I am and I am still working with them when not in active games to find out why.

I just need this quote in my ego for post-game. If you're dying to know why, it's about the conversation RE: replicating town play. Going to ask math to evaluate something unrelated to this game but after this game is over for obv. reasons.

[Drixx]

zMuffin as scum I feel would want a game with little effort so he could coast

Nah, muffin scum is the type of player who would be MORE active if he's scum if anything.

Umm ... so basically scum!muffin would be constantly posting just like we see in this game?

[Drixx]

Katsuki was the claimed cop guilty mason liar right?

[Drixx]

You know what, fuck this, i dont even know what to believe in anymore.

Drixx, first of all, what you've said muffin is doing is something he recently did in a town game, plus that's his playstyle as far as memory serves, and it's part of the reason I like playing with him, i find his snarkyness and sarcasm funny to read.

Granted im not that great at infering little differences, I ask that if you're town at least take a look at his play in minuet's trio and tell me if you find something different enough to warrant a difference in alignment.

I'm not sure I can rationally view a play style which consists of just sarcasm and trolling to be alignment indicative. Where in all that trolling and sarcasm do I find motive?

[Drixx]

Yeah I just can't anymore with muffin. The amount of self contradiction coming from that slot is absolutely absurd.

Pretend I can gladiate and that I gladiated him.

VOTE: zMuffinMan

If you want reasons:

Completely unwilling to behave like an adult and talk to people in anything resembling a civil manner.
Refuses to give reasoning for anything; when pressed resorts to more trolling, sarcasm, etc...
Loads of self contradiction
Refuses the implied social contract which is part of the basic premise of the game (i.e. you play to help your faction win)
Has managed to completely bog day 2 down in almost zero conversation of any productive substance by essentially stirring the pot and shitting all over anyone who tries to progress the conversation or gamestate.


P-Edit: Anyone who votes for Sakura over Ank is a fool. Go with someone who you have solid reasons to believe is town

OR

go with someone who has spent today on the transparent gambit of fake claiming masons in order to report a fake "cop guilty" on someone who was nearly universally scum read, then said they didn't want to be considered for leadership and super powers ... only to later say that the fake masons claim given the mod posts is proof they are town, and then recently suggested other people want them to be leader.

I mean ... that's

totally

gonna work out well if we vote the person doing an incredibly accurate impression of an actual politician into anything but a noose.

[Drixx]

i trust my mason partner on this, im 100% sure he wouldnt lie about this kind of thing.

This quote obviously is confirmation that you fake claimed mason. This post is you also using that fake claim to advance a "cop guilty" from the supposed mason partner.

Btw please do remember while choosing teams that a player may only use ONE super power per night.
Also please do remember that you can choose anywhere from 0 to 5 ppl.
Also please do remember to not include me in any super hero team.

Thanks in advance.

And here's you saying you don't want anything to do with the superhero team.

But then here you are promoting yourself to run it and choose it.

I can keep going. I don't make many mistakes when I note things down and I noted that you pointed at your lie about being a mason as a reason to believe you are town. You can keep on trying to say I'm lying and make me comb through your ISO to find the post if you really want to.

The point is that there's a very clear arc and progression out of your slot and lo and behold we're coming up on the end of the day and you somehow magically inserted yourself into the spot to be the leader if scum were to take FA out.

That shit didn't just happen by accident.

[Drixx]

It's kinda disheartening for me that the only reason you think im good candidate is because i did something anti-town (i.e. fake claim mason)

Fantastic post here. You get to point out that someone

else

is discounting you being scum because of the gambit. You get to bring it up but let it be someone else who "actually" said it. The post is to your overall benefit though.


Like ... this is what I do Sakura Hana. I see the narrative. Yours is lining up awfully smoothly for all of this to be you just bumping into shit by mistake. Your trajectory reeks of planning.

[Drixx]

All I know is a no lynch is really bad for town. I seriously doubt that Titus doesn’t get lynched D3 especially after that terribad hebi push.

I’m starting to question Math’s reasoning. I don’t want his bad reads to cost us. Evrnthough he was right about scum!random and town!the worst, he was also dead wrong about town!Shoshin and especially town!Saj and come to think of it,

I agree with Muffin on not voting Ank, since she almost lost us that game.

So either FA or Sakura then.

This is the last game we're playing together.

Oh c’mon Ank. I really enjoy playing with you but your reads in that game almost cost us. \_0_/

What do you want me to say?

I’m genuinely sorry if I upset you with that post. I don’t ever try to make anyone feel bad *Sigh*

You had much better reads in Necromancer, so I wouldn’t take it so hard.

The whole, the reads were good or bad per game thing is probably getting under people's skin in general.

Agreed, it should have no bearing on our leadership choice.

Yeah, I don’t want this game to be dragged down by petty grade school type arguments. All of the nastiness, initiated mainly by Muffin, really has got to stop. I don’t know whether Muffin is scum but I wouldn’t mind policy lynching him on his childish behaviour alone. Lucky for him, I don’t believe in policy lynches. Guys, can we please try to play nice here and not make everything personal? Kthanx.

I mean ... it actually is to the policy lynch point already. I've reached the end of my willingness to put up with it to the point where I literally asked the game to pretend I gladiated him. I'd literally rather not get to play (and be vindicated) than deal with more days of that crap.

Also ... you can't call for being nice when you are throwing daggers at Ank. You have been on the attack over one particular bad game and right in this quote tree you're walking that back and saying yourself "but you were much better in Y other game". Like ... this game isn't whatever that other one bad game was. Why are you preferring the negative over the positive? Was it a conscious choice on your part?

I mean ... just to be absolutely clear here: I'm quite sure that Ank didn't enjoy some of what you were putting out, but you haven't gone 1% of the way towards being WOTC worthy as muffin has. Night and day difference.

[Drixx]

This quote obviously is confirmation that you fake claimed mason.

And im not denying fake claiming mason.

This post is you also using that fake claim to advance a "cop guilty" from the supposed mason partner.

I just said I "believed" the claim (even tho i knew katsuki was fake claiming it), that doesnt mean im fake claiming a guilty.

And here's you saying you don't want anything to do with the superhero team.

Yeah so? Im not denying that.

I noted that you pointed at your lie about being a mason as a reason to believe you are town.

I didnt, Ankamius did that and/or i think someone else also did that.

Fantastic post here. You get to point out that someone else is discounting you being scum because of the gambit. You get to bring it up but let it be someone else who "actually" said it. The post is to your overall benefit though.

Yeah it's disheartening because i dont want the mason claim to be the only reason someone townreads me.

You used your established mason claim to push the validity of a guilty claim. You took ownership of that fake guilty. You can call a technicality all you want, but you still advanced a fake cop guilty.

[Drixx]

There are already associatives between Sakura and the people who showed up and suggested them for leader instead of the pretty widely accepted plan for most of the day which was FA + Ank.

Sakura made a point of posting early in the day to leave them out of the superpowers thing altogether. Then most of the day goes by and there's some shade being thrown on Ank and suddenly a couple people go "Sakura!"

There's more to it but ultimately ... where did the desire to stay out of the powers/leader go?

The other thing is narrative. Scum are informed and thus by definition everything they do in the thread is a story. Everything has to be planned out to some extent or another. Every post is adding to an ongoing fiction that has to make sense and be believable.


@Nancy - I think you misunderstood what I was saying in that post. I was doing exactly the opposite of trying to pick a fight with you. We can talk about it after if you like.

[Drixx]

"Sando how comes you object on nos obvious lie but didn't on Sakura's yesterday?

I did, I said Titus flip would be indicative of the lie.

Also, am I really meant to treat a lie I can verify as a lie the same as one that I can't 100% verify? Wat?

I would suggest yes. There was actual discussion and people seriously wondering if the mason claim was genuine and legit. One of the best mods on site (if not outright the best, no disrespect to present company) has made mistakes before where their info/rules posts and answers made it seem like a player was lying about their role and the only choice the mod had was to step in and clarify (which would have taken a likely mislynch and made it essentially WotM Conftown) or to say nothing and avoid making the mistake worse.

The line is probably pretty easy I think. If the lie creates absolutely no confusion whatsoever ... feel free to disregard it. The moment it brings confusion/doubt into the game it matters. There's a reason LAL was/is a thing. There's also a reason why basically every great mafia player will say that you shouldn't lie as town unless you and the lie both meet a high bar in terms of expected value (i.e. you need to be a good enough player to actually get positive utility from it and counteract whatever damage it does).

I think part of what made me suspicious of Sakura yesterday was that the lie was kept going long past when it should have stopped.

---

Just for the record: Titus did not put me on the team or give me powers or anything. I think a town!Titus would have given me a power choice 99 times out of a 100 given the game state at end of day and the very high likelihood that she gets roped today. Especially with Cerb already dead. I also would have expected a scum!Titus to do so as well and try and convince me she's town and to help her avoid getting roped; however, I can also see scum!Titus trying to play at level 2 and take advantage of that expectation by not throwing me a power.

I'm still a few pages behind current so perhaps she already popped in and said something, but I'm definitely interested in what Titus has to say about choices.


Also for the record: It would have been WAY better to lynch me or zMM yesterday than what we did. I don't see myself suddenly feeling like constant trolling of the game is appropriate play, and I don't see zMM suddenly deciding to play it straight. So hooray for a bunch more of that shit. I wouldn't have been particularly happy to be dead, but I would have been confirmed and since the dead can be contacted and talk, I could have still worked the game and given info to a medium.

Like ... I'm not sure why the moment I said pretend I gladiated zMM, all of a sudden nobody was interested anymore.

[Drixx]

Btw @FA: Dont forget to start thinking about potential leader candidates for tomorrow, also please dont put me as one, I dont want to have to deal with more conspirancy theories from drixx ._.

Oh lay off it. People are allowed to suspect you. That's the freaking game. Several people in this game (including Titus and FA) will attest to the fact that I catch scum fairly regularly because of narrative. Scum are constantly telling a story to the rest of the game and unexpected things cause that narrative to need to shift. Most scum don't realize all the things they need to do to make a shift look like it's coming from town mindset and motive.

Basically I threw out an observation that things seemed off about how you progressed and saw how you responded to it. If you are gonna get upset about a mild FoS ... maybe this isn't the game for you?

[Drixx]

FA

Me

Ank Nancy Drixx

Math

Shiro

Quoting for reference
Bolding the confirmed + Titus herself coz she cant unchoose herself.

Drixx is the one person off list I left out. Mod said too many to give him one.

He was considered the scummiest

and there was no hood.

Still catching up.

I took Precognition since that power role can be tracked and no one trusted me. Sending in my PM to use it.

Yep that's bullshit. You don't give a shit what other people think. You decide for yourself. I would have bought this if you said "... because I think he's scum" and maybe even adjusted my read towards town ... but I don't buy you making that decision based upon the quasi-wagon on me yesterday.

There's potentially much easier more certain catches since it seems like someone is lying about talking to Cerb from what I see, but pretty sure you need to eat rope.

[Drixx]

Drixx can you ask shiro a question that only cerb can answer?

Make sure Cerb is on to answer first according to Shiro before asking if it is time sensitive.

I'm down. I can ask Cerb a very specific question that nobody else could possibly answer. I've already thought of several actually.

[Drixx]

Cerb says you all should stop being idiots and asking questions that could be found online because scum could find them and raise the circle of associative that arise if I flip scum.

He says you should only ask questions when he is ready to prove it.

He's not the one who has to prove anything. You are. Since you are saying Cerb is talking to you now, here's the 2 questions:

1.) How many times did Cerb accidentally butt dial me on slack and on which day? (one question with two parts)

2.) I gave Cerb a list of different types of a certain thing this evening. What thing was it.

[Drixx]

Yup yup

Name the only game you were force replaced for a weird circumstance that I was also in and then your hydra buddy died. Name your role and alignment. You have 10 minutes. This should be enough time.

No hints from anyone else.

@Drixx please do

And also for curiosity’s sake how quickly could you do this in regards to Cerb? You know him pretty well so force replace is a rather rare occurrence wouldn’t you say? Don’t actually answer it.

I already know exactly. Cerb and I have talked daily for years.


I'm actually trying to figure out how to play town as well out of hydra as I'm able to when I'm with him. It's incredibly valuable to be able to talk to someone about a game instead of just make notes and constantly second guess myself. While we're waiting for question answers ... any advice on that?

[Drixx]

Well, we can verify that I gave everyone but Drixx a power in my pool. A slot with medium targets Ank. Sorry Drixx. Someone had to be removed and you had the largest wagon, plus none of the abilities were hoods where I could talk to you.

@Drixx, I'm not a characture and the notation you had one of the largest wagons at EoD was noted.

It's too late to try and damage control. You literally give zero fucks what other people think. You would not have ceded agency to other people,

especially

when it was a bullshit wagon without any actual reasoning or case.

I mean FFS I literally asked people to pretend I had gladiated zMM and either lynch me or him. I basically gave the game my blessing to lynch me. If there was any actual firm scumreads on me, I would already be a dead VT watching the game and waiting for a medium to reach out.

This is literally the worst possible way you could have responded to my prior post. I'm pretty sure you're scum here. It was already pretty much certain since we have a group of people who lied yesterday to avoid admitting they voted for you (or else you wouldn't have been leader), but this removed the benefit of the doubt I was giving you.

[Drixx]

He says he won't answer anything till he is ready, which isn't now and won't be till half a day is over. Stop being dumb and let others talk.

@Drixx6he says when the time comes he will tell me something from forever ago which will instantly confirm it to you.

Bullshit. There's no utility cost for him to confirm that you're talking to him. If you were actually talking to Cerb he would have answered both my questions. Neither are game info related so there's literally zero utility cost in answering them. Refusing to answer them just results in you being lynched so if you were actually talking to him he would have given you the answers so that we know to let the day drag out a bit while he's evaluating and putting together an info dump.

If I don't see those two answers before I go to sleep, then you're obviously lying and we just need to sort leader choices and votes for tomorrow and lynch you. No reason to drag the day out with you basically caught.

[Drixx]

UNVOTE: for now

But hard fos on shiro

It's time to start talking about who folks need to vote for tonight honestly.


There's no world where Cerb would not have just answered my two questions. I specifically asked those questions to ensure there was no utility expended by him answering them. Every post Shiro makes at this point just makes me more sure he's scum and that we have a super easy day 3.


@Math - Umm ... I instantly knew the answer to the question so there's no way Cerb wouldn't. It's a good question. So are the two I asked. The fact that Shiro is just making up things Cerb wouldn't say is pretty obvious now.

[Drixx]

Shiro has also used words that Cerb doesn't use. Shiro appears to be using Cerb level vocabulary to try and fake communication from Cerberus himself. But there's too many words which are not common to most people's everyday vocabulary and are also not the words Cerberus would use to convey the same thoughts.

On the vanishingly small off chance that Shiro is talking to Cerb and Cerb has just decided to start using words he never uses:

@Cerb: I'm overriding. I agree with Math and FA that confirming you are talking to Shiro is a gigantic help to solving several important questions and there is literally no reason for you to wait to confirm this fact.

[Drixx]

Cool then I am going to bed. I just wanted to make sure I was being reasonable and it was a test of you and Shiro.

Going to bed will check in AM if I missed something let me know.

Pedit I said I would submit in the AM.

I will quote your post asking.

Since the time has passed, do you want me to answer the question?

[Drixx]

Cerberus if you are actually in contact with Shiro via the medium ability and you're refusing to confirm so we can continue to work the problem, then you should know that you are behaving worse than SCTH in SU ... and you may recall that his stubbornness had a gigantic impact on both of our thinking about the game and how it ultimately wound up.


@Titus - No. The questions I asked are not questions anyone else can answer. The question you propose is one YOU can answer, and given the reasons to believe you are scum along with the fact that a fake claiming shiro here would also be scum, you could just feed that answer.

[Drixx]

Like I could care less if you think I am scum but lying about communicating with Cerb is just stupid. Thinking I am not saying stuff as he wants orb whatever, sure OK. But I am not stupid to make up such a lie. I have nothing to bloody gain and that is pretty obvious.

Actually it wouldn't be a bad gambit in a world where the remaining scum are Titus, You and two ohers. Titus knows Cerb well enough to help fake it and you just had plenty of time to go rummaging through logs of our hydra conversations. The only flaw in such a gambit is that it occurred to me to ask questions where the answers aren't anywhere on the site.

I mean ... I can't think of any reason for Cerb to withhold the answers to my 2 questions, and you still

nearly

convinced me to back off.


P-Edit: So now the only possible reason that Cerb might not want to confirm is out of the bag. If Shiro is town and really is talking to Cerb, scum will obviously cut it off if they can. There's no world where they want to let Cerb infodump into the game. It should already be shut off and certainly isn't going to be left for 48+ hours. Of course ... real!Cerb would already have worked all that out so he would know there's no utility loss in confirming.


P-Edit2: Cerb was force replaced from a game because the rolecard sent to him glitched and showed him info he was not supposed to have. He turned himself in and was replaced out to avoid the game being compromised. And it was legitimately a glitch too and not a mod error.

[Drixx]

The only plausible reason for Cerb not to answer is to maintain doubt and suspicion on Shiro. The only reason to do that is if Cerb thinks that scum can shut off the ability.

The problem is that if Shiro actually has the ability and is town, then scum will shut it off the moment the scumbutt who can do it shows up. Cerb won't have the 48-72 hours to put an infodump together. He has to do it as rapidly as possible. Confirming that Shiro really is medium costs us nothing. It doesn't confirm Shiro as town even. It does allow us to move on with evaluating Titus and other things though.

Like ... if the world we're in has a town!Shiro who is a medium who is really talking to Cerb ... then scum either can or cannot do anything about it. Cerb confirming it doesn't impact that in any way.

And Cerb is way beyond smart enough to know that.

QED: Cerb isn't talking to Shiro.

[Drixx]

So, you can ask something only you and Cerb know. Like a comment in a hydra pt. Remove me from the equation.

He has...Cerb is refusing to answer...apparently

Yes. Which then makes Drixx whole I'm coaching Shiro by Cyrano absurd so I decided when he does talk, just remove me from the equation to reduce noise.

Ummm nope. It doesn't work that way.

YOU cannot tell anyone how many times Cerb butt dialed me on Slack recently and which day it happened on. You also cannot tell anyone what I gave him a list of tonight. Only he can answer those, and he would have already. Confirming that Shiro is a medium in contact with him costs nothing and lets us settle that question and move on.

As long as it remains an open question, we're not moving on. There's no way Cerb would refuse to spend nothing in order to avoid us wasting 2-3 days.

He says you should all go back to playing mafia and stop giving unknown alignment! Shiro ways to hide by talking to him.

Not a thing he would say. Answering my questions doesn't confirm your alignment. It only confirms that you have the medium power and lets us know to expect an infodump from him later this day phase.

It

ALSO

builds in a mechanism for him to confirm you relayed his infodump accurately. I ask him 2 more questions only he could possibly answer.


But here we are and Titus is trying to pretend there's no way this could be a gambit (not a good look), and we have a supposed refusal to confirm by a person who simply would have worked out the angles even before I did (especially since the game was open for hours before I checked in) and thus wouldn't see any value in allowing this to remain an unanswered question for days. He would confirm it immediately so we have concrete info.


Knowing for sure that Shiro has medium and Titus took precog narrows the possibility space for how ank ended up dead... especially since power negation being an available thing greatly diminishes the idea that Scum started with a factional strongman.

The more of this puzzle we have, the more we can get done while we wait for his infodump ... if he were actually in communication here. And he knows that. And he knows scum will break his communication off before he ever gets to an infodump in all possible worlds. So it bears repeating:


QED: Cerb isn't talking to Shiro. Cerb would already have passed the answers to my two questions so we could get on with extrapolating from known info.

[Drixx]

Like ... if the world we're in has a town!Shiro who is a medium who is really talking to Cerb ... then scum either can or cannot do anything about it. Cerb confirming it doesn't impact that in any way.

And Cerb is way beyond smart enough to know that.

QED: Cerb isn't talking to Shiro.

Or he's talking to Cerb who is pretty sure Shiro is scum. But then Cerb can't have any more info on Shiro than we do?

Even if Cerb believes that Shiro is scum, he STILL answers my questions. That still means Shiro absolutely has medium, stops this pages long debate from going on for days, and adds to the known info we can work from. There's also no downside because: IF Shiro is town and telling the truth then a scum team with the ability to power negate Shiro will do it ASAP to shut down any communication from Cerb to the game. Doing that would also make Shiro look really bad. So if scum CAN shut it down, they will do so the moment the person who can do it shows up.

Cerb would have realized this before I even showed up to the thread.

This means that confirming Shiro as medium by answering my two questions has no negative utility.

It also means we have an elegant test to ensure that Shiro passes along what Cerberus wants to communicate to us. I simply ask another set of questions and the correct answer to said questions means Shiro relayed the info accurately. Wrong answers means not.


Trying to handwave and say "Shiro wouldn't have lied about this as scum" is absolutely meaningless. Shiro has a wide range as scum. Titus is basically universally scumread and this kind of thing is right up her alley.

AND SHE TRIED TO GET ME TO MAKE MY QUESTION ONE SHE CAN ANSWER

. Like ... it's plausible that this is a gambit.

It's very implausible that Cerb refuses to give us concrete info to stop us going round and round about this.

[Drixx]

Ok, why does Scum!Shiro lie here?

Theory: Scum!Shiro isn't lying, is talking to Cerb, who took his opportunity to get us information by being an unreasonable dick to get Shiro lynched.

Also if this is true, holy fuck well played Cerb.

Nah ... Cerb would just give the wrong answers if he was in convo with Shiro and wanted us to rope Shiro.

Actually I believe now that Shiro's talking with Cerb.

Based upon what evidence?

@Drixx

Cerb says that maybe he wants everyone to suspect me so he can create associatives like he would do if he was alive by acting scummy/arrogant.

Or maybe he doesn't trust me enough to confirm me so I dont start saying shit he isn't telling me after I confirm the link.

Nope. That doesn't cut it. There's literally hundreds of questions I can ask which only Cerb can answer. He knows this. Therefore if he were talking to you he would be fine confirming you because we can check every bit of info you pass along at any time we want.

[Drixx]

@Drixx, I don't think I can get any clearer than doing a test that removes me from the equation. Cerb should only be able to talk today anyway soooo

I already asked (and repeated in a reply to you) two questions that he can answer but you cannot. I've also laid out the rationale for why I believe cerb would have answered my questions.

Until proven otherwise, this is a scum gambit by Shiro.

Time to figure out who the two leader candidates are for tomorrow.

[Drixx]

Shiro just asked me a question that i dont see Shiro asking in a million years, so i believe it.

Not sure I do but it fits my purposes to move on and start sorting people. Kinda glad I didn't power Drixx now though bc this is kinda crazy where he's at...

You seriously want to call me crazy again, Titus?

Please point out where in the logic chain I made a mistake. You won't be able to. The fact that you just went to your Space Dandy 2 playbook is pretty telling, given how that went.

[Drixx]

I mean ... in SD2 you called me crazy and it got super ugly and I was so right that the situation was far worse than I thought. The game literally would have ended in a scum win on day 1 if scum had realized what Cerb and I saw immediately. You called me crazy over it.

And this time I actually have a rock solid logical progression instead of supposition with a high probability of being accurate.

Raising the white flag?

[Drixx]

Because he told me to wait till he want to prove it ffs. He is conf town. I will trust his bloody judgment

So you want me to believe that he actually answered my questions but asked you not to prove it?

[Drixx]

Nah ... Cerb would just give the wrong answers if he was in convo with Shiro and wanted us to rope Shiro.

Fair.

Why can't we deal with this midday as suggested?

Knowing whether Shiro is actually a medium or not has a pretty large amount of collateral information attached to it. Never mind that this is now going to dominate the game until it is resolved.

[Drixx]

Tbh, I ceased viewing it as a "logic" chain when you a) accused me of trying to change questions in spite of my plain language saying ask Cerb something I wouldn't know b) applying an implication that 90+% of tests would be me feeding Shiro answers.

Your posting reads more of you wanting to show I am scum because I didn't pick you than a logic chain about Cerb not doing things.

Sando's theory has merit, although very unCerb like it is possible.

Also, I said your position was crazy...not you were.

Sane people don't spout out insanity. Also ... let's look at this next quote from you:

@Drixx, The insect we wanted to work on also verifies.

Here's you suggesting that the question should be about the game that You, Cerberus, myself and Varsoon are in progress of making. You clearly know the name of that game and the source material we're using to build it.

So yes ... you

DID

suggest using a question to confirm to which you know the answer.

[Drixx]

Tbh, I ceased viewing it as a "logic" chain when you a) accused me of trying to change questions in spite of my plain language saying ask Cerb something I wouldn't know b) applying an implication that 90+% of tests would be me feeding Shiro answers.

Your posting reads more of you wanting to show I am scum because I didn't pick you than a logic chain about Cerb not doing things.

Sando's theory has merit, although very unCerb like it is possible.

Also, I said your position was crazy...not you were.

Sane people don't spout out insanity. Also ... let's look at this next quote from you:

@Drixx, The insect we wanted to work on also verifies.

Here's you suggesting that the question should be about the game that You, Cerberus, myself and Varsoon are in progress of making. You clearly know the name of that game and the source material we're using to build it.

So yes ... you

DID

suggest using a question to confirm to which you know the answer.

FA asked for those. When you objected, I said fine. Take me out. Ask something else. Frankly, I don't care atm anymore. This is circular as you are not listening.

Sorry but you don't get to wriggle out of it. I asked my two questions in post #4089 (quoted below for convenience). You suggested a question to which you know the answer in post 4131, which is 42 posts later. You don't get to pretend it happened in the other order.

Cerb says you all should stop being idiots and asking questions that could be found online because scum could find them and raise the circle of associative that arise if I flip scum.

He says you should only ask questions when he is ready to prove it.

He's not the one who has to prove anything. You are. Since you are saying Cerb is talking to you now, here's the 2 questions:

1.) How many times did Cerb accidentally butt dial me on slack and on which day? (one question with two parts)

2.) I gave Cerb a list of different types of a certain thing this evening. What thing was it.

[Drixx]

I think we should stop talking mechanics and start talking reads. I think town is chasing ourselves here. If you think someone is scum, go to their play. If your case isn't about play and has a single hole in it, I am putting it on mute. I think the entire mechanics spec is designed to have us chasing each other and turning against each other.

You're not town.

The only way you got elected leader yesterday is because people voted you and lied about it. Either they claimed to have voted someone else or claimed to have "forgotten". That's the only possible way for you to have ended up leader.

You also lurked the shit out of the day yesterday starting the first moment you could reasonably duck out and go low activity. Town!Titus looks to make blocks and have synergy. Town!Titus who can't be killed shutting down and basically lurking out the day after ending up leader in a scenario where the people who voted for it then lied about said votes?

Come on ...

[Drixx]

You also lurked the shit out of the day yesterday starting the first moment you could reasonably duck out and go low activity.

Fuck you on this btw. I was dealing with family issues d2 partially.

Umm ... you don't get to swear at me because I called you out for lurking when you have a legit reason ... when I didn't know. That's not how it works. Sorry to hear you had family issues.

[Drixx]

scum didn't necessarily vote titus, she won on tiebreak. bbMolla, cerb, no living player got more than 2 votes and titus won out on tiebreak factors (on the scum lynch, more overall votes than sakura)

she could be scum anyway but i doubt she planned to get elected

So you believe all those people just totally forgot about voting for leader?

[Drixx]

@fa from Cerb, almost copy paste. Hopefully I won't be mod killed

He think the super mechanical discussion isn't valuable now. We lack crucial info to make conclusions and stuff. Repeat the Sando thing, he is uncertain what you mean.

He says you are displaying a contradiction by calling my decision to not choose a protective power a really bad one, while also expressing certainty that scum wouldnt go for an "uncertain" kill in someone who was likely to be given the ability to have a protective. Doesn't seem to jive with him. And the talks about power negation. He needs to think about that more.

This is bullshit. Cerberus trusts me to think through things as thoroughly as him. When we hydra we're both constantly pushing each other and thinking of things the other hasn't. There's no world where Cerb doesn't confirm by now. He would want me to have the known info because both He and I work from concrete known information. He also wouldn't just assume that if he didn't see a way to draw some conclusion he's trying to figure out that I would also be unable. He would want us both working on it.

QED: Shiro is lying and running a super ballsy gambit that didn't work because I thought to ask questions only he and I know the answers to when it could have been reasonably expected I might try to confirm it was him in a way similar to how Mathblade tried. Just the fact that Math's attempt at confirmation was info that could be found on site reinforces the fact that it would have been reasonable for someone to believe such a gambit could work. All it would have taken was for me to think to confirm the way Math did and the gambit may in fact have actually worked.

So all this bullshit about how there's no way Shiro would do this gambit is literally handwaving bullshit. It nearly worked.

[Drixx]

Cerb says you all should stop being idiots and asking questions that could be found online because scum could find them and raise the circle of associative that arise if I flip scum.

He says you should only ask questions when he is ready to prove it.

He's not the one who has to prove anything. You are. Since you are saying Cerb is talking to you now, here's the 2 questions:

1.) How many times did Cerb accidentally butt dial me on slack and on which day? (one question with two parts)

2.) I gave Cerb a list of different types of a certain thing this evening. What thing was it.

1)4, thought you said 5 and cerb originially thought 2 and it was on tuesday the 24th
2) A list of different samsung brand cell phones

This is both absolutely correct and Cerb level precision. Now I'm just curious why the hell Cerb wanted to wait.

@Cerb: bust ass today bud because we can't hear from you after.

@Shiro: Obviously my bad. Doesn't give you a free town read but clearly I was hasty to conclude you were lying.

[Drixx]

Brutally ugly posts by Shiro and Titus within the past page or two.

1.) Cerb giving the answers and Shiro providing them tells us nothing about Shiro other than that Shiro is using SM power. When I pointed out earlier that honest!Shiro was not necessarily town, Shiro readily acknowledged that. Now the confirmation that the Cerb convo is real happens and Shiro is campaigning for leader?

2.) Titus pretending there isn't a mountain of reasons to suspect her and trying to hand wave anything I might say away by claiming all I'm doing is "fighting" her. I mean ... at this point I'm only even reading Titus posts to sanity check myself on the opinion she's scum. Trying to provoke me into shitting all over the thread by invoking the "crazy" label just doesn't seem like a town move by Titus. Town!Titus tries to make town blocks and build synergy.

@Cerb - The question for this 24 hours: What was the first thing we really talked about years ago which was the catalyst for us going from casual acquaintances to good friends?

[Drixx]

@Drixx

Cerb says that maybe he wants everyone to suspect me so he can create associatives like he would do if he was alive by acting scummy/arrogant.

Or maybe he doesn't trust me enough to confirm me so I dont start saying shit he isn't telling me after I confirm the link.

This is not coming from cerb ever

Titus calling dirxx crazy with his posts makes no sense.

Shiro is scum unless if she can prove she has a chat with cerb.

Like here. For example.

I don't believe for a second that Cerberus' actual goal was to sort you. There's not really any way for him to leverage the situation to do that. A scum you is going to report faithfully what he says as will a town you. That's not how we sort you.

He was sorting someone else. At best he may have seen some value in seeing who would push you for proof as opposed to who would take the position that it was too crazy a gambit as opposed to those who didn't commit to either "reality". That would have been tangential to what he's really doing.

Given that he has already sent some reads/guidance over, I would like him to give some reasoning for those. I'm especially curious how he discerned my alignment but that maybe is just something I can ask him post game. It's not relevant (for me) at this point. How he arrived at other conclusions is VERY relevant to me right now.


Someone asked me for reads. I don't usually do lists as most of you know. It's early day 3. I'm pretty sure scum is in:


{Titus, Sando, Toogeloo, Katsuki, Shiro, Nancy} - There are a couple others who I have light FoS on. Those are the ones where there's enough to at least have them a step further than nullscum.

I'm pressed for time but if anyone is confused about why, feel free to ask and I'll explain.

My strong town reads right now: Cerberus, Ank, Mylo

Seriously I do have some light town reads but I'm not at the point where I feel it's useful for me to just info vomit. Still have a list of things I want to go looking for and people I want to re-read.

FWIW: I have a couple working theories which adequately explain the events and gamestate, and unusual for me this early I've got a potential town block in mind.

Sorry for the shotgun post. I am pressed for time and wanted to communicate a lot of thoughts. I'll try and respond to questions when I can.

[Drixx]

@Drixx

Cerb says that maybe he wants everyone to suspect me so he can create associatives like he would do if he was alive by acting scummy/arrogant.

Or maybe he doesn't trust me enough to confirm me so I dont start saying shit he isn't telling me after I confirm the link.

This is not coming from cerb ever

Titus calling dirxx crazy with his posts makes no sense.

Shiro is scum unless if she can prove she has a chat with cerb.

Like here. For example.

I don't believe for a second that Cerberus' actual goal was to sort you. There's not really any way for him to leverage the situation to do that. A scum you is going to report faithfully what he says as will a town you. That's not how we sort you.

He was sorting someone else. At best he may have seen some value in seeing who would push you for proof as opposed to who would take the position that it was too crazy a gambit as opposed to those who didn't commit to either "reality". That would have been tangential to what he's really doing.

Given that he has already sent some reads/guidance over, I would like him to give some reasoning for those. I'm especially curious how he discerned my alignment but that maybe is just something I can ask him post game. It's not relevant (for me) at this point. How he arrived at other conclusions is VERY relevant to me right now.


Someone asked me for reads. I don't usually do lists as most of you know. It's early day 3. I'm pretty sure scum is in:


{Titus, Sando, Toogeloo, Katsuki, Shiro, Nancy} - There are a couple others who I have light FoS on. Those are the ones where there's enough to at least have them a step further than nullscum.

I'm pressed for time but if anyone is confused about why, feel free to ask and I'll explain.

My strong town reads right now: Cerberus, Ank, Mylo

Seriously I do have some light town reads but I'm not at the point where I feel it's useful for me to just info vomit. Still have a list of things I want to go looking for and people I want to re-read.

FWIW: I have a couple working theories which adequately explain the events and gamestate, and unusual for me this early I've got a potential town block in mind.

Sorry for the shotgun post. I am pressed for time and wanted to communicate a lot of thoughts. I'll try and respond to questions when I can.

I really don’t like your shade on me or Shiro, after she already answered all of your questions and no, ftr, I am far from convinced you are town here. First your bullshit Sakura push, now Shiro and now I’m getting fucking shaded by you because I want to prevent what I think is a probable mislynch?

If you want to know why I have a light nullscum read on you ... you could ask. The fact that you have some thing in mind that you think is it is a bit skeezy. If I really wanted to "shade" you, I would do a lot more than include you in a pool of suspects.

This does continue a pattern of overreaction by you though. First you threw shade on Ank and kept referring to one particular bad game. Then when you got pressed about it, you backpedaled and acted like Ank had no reason to feel like you were being unfair. You literally said something along the lines of "Don't take it so hard ... you were good in {some other game}." -- I asked you why you were only considering the negative game where Ank didn't do as well and not the wider view of all of your experience with Ank, and you overreacted then too.

So ... what's up with the overreacting?

[Drixx]

Checking in for a moment. Got a LOT of pages to read. Went to sleep Sunday night around midnight. Got up 5 minutes ago. Looks like 40 pages or so

[Drixx]

Cerb says that drixx needs to desperately come to confirm me for all the latest posts.

Checking in. You guys are generating pages fast than I have been able to keep up.

@Cerberus:

What condition was I suffering from when I took over the place where we met? Who is the person or people who nearly destroyed said place such that it took me stepping in to save it in the middle of said prior condition?


I'm pretty sure only Cerb can answer that.

[Drixx]

FA, Math, anyone else who wants to answer: What do I need to focus my time on right now? I don't think I can read every post and get caught up rapidly enough to be useful. I'll put being useful above reading every single post. Just throw me some guidace.

[Drixx]

I'm going to reevaluate. The problem is i haven't had the damn time yet. Don't push this on me fifteen minutes after i realize i am wrong

I am pushing you not because you haven’t reevaluated yet, but because you instantly dropped a vote before you did.

I officially hate the Creature wagon. I want nothing to do with it.

Took me a second to put my finger on it but this.

Takes the time to do a bunch of work and then posts it to ... prove ... what? No re-evaluation and no real sign of anywhere near that for the Critter vote.

[Drixx]

@drixx you confirm that?

Yep. I didn't see a better option and thought that Titus badly misplayed her hand as scum sacrifice to get powers to her team. Town!Titus would never have left me out of the pool while openly town reading me. She would have been way more likely to give me a choice but check what I did with it (if she had any doubts), or just trust me to do the right thing (would have done SM I think, if I have the choices for that night correct).

[Drixx]

Well yeah, theres no way that titus didn't give scum abilities.

I don’t see that as a thing.

Titus was forced to work off a list we agreed to. She especially dreaded giving me powers and I think was trying to keep up appearances. Depending upon what factional abilities scum have she could have easily given it to all town in order to get us to focus there instead of lurkers. Her day end wine of claiming 11v1 is also odd. I think it was designed to make sure we didn’t look at her defenders. Titus is good scum but also arrogant scum. If she thought giving town all power would let her coast she would do it in a heartbeat.

Kind of obligatory to mention this because my gut is pinging me.

The current situation seems very much like something Titus and You might have cooked up as scum together. She knows she's doomed and you replace in and immediately point out all of the valid reasons not to scum read me at that time when there was a jank wagon on me. Obviously this is good to me in two ways: you got it right and you had logical reasoning for getting it right. Meanwhile you and Titus have your normal sniping ... but maybe not up to the usual levels of nastiness. She also does her normal thing where she is irrational towards me.

This just feels too neat.

Disclaimer: For those of you who get all wild about me dumping an initial theory into the game ... I'm not even to FoS with Math yet. Just my gut says something is off. I'll be doing as much re-reading as I can spare and if I find some reason to bring this up again, it will be much more detailed. If I don't ... I don't.

But ... before you go all half cocked on me ... maybe think about it and see what your gut says. I don't particularly care for meta as a general rule and much of this has to do with my prior experience with the players involved so there's that.


Reminder: It's Sunday. I'm stupidly busy on Sunday. I'll keep up as I can.

[Drixx]

I'm going to reevaluate. The problem is i haven't had the damn time yet. Don't push this on me fifteen minutes after i realize i am wrong

I am pushing you not because you haven’t reevaluated yet, but because you instantly dropped a vote before you did.

I officially hate the Creature wagon. I want nothing to do with it.

Took me a second to put my finger on it but this.

Takes the time to do a bunch of work and then posts it to ... prove ... what? No re-evaluation and no real sign of anywhere near that for the Critter vote.

@drixx you confirm that?

Yep. I didn't see a better option and thought that Titus badly misplayed her hand as scum sacrifice to get powers to her team. Town!Titus would never have left me out of the pool while openly town reading me. She would have been way more likely to give me a choice but check what I did with it (if she had any doubts), or just trust me to do the right thing (would have done SM I think, if I have the choices for that night correct).

I agree with this. However, as weird as this sounds I think she gave Ank powers.

Let’s assume the converse. With Titus going down it’s highly unlikely barring factional powers scum know what is coming up. So unless they have a factional precog I doubt Titus gives powers to anyone but Ank. There could be a cop that determines abilities or a historian that figures out who got powers what night. Titus being a meticulous planner would absolutely be driven apeshit by this and likely does give Ank powers.

The Shiro kill therefore was out of necessity because of his power not because of who he could connect to.

Nope. That fails. Shiro was proven SM. The only info Shiro could have provided is whether or not Titus gave Ank power choice. There was no other thing Shiro could have provided. Shiro was also (apparently) a high probability to be a mislynch. Scum only give up a high probability mislynch and spend a kill on it if they feel they need to.

So scum don't want us to know whether Ank was offered power or not. Not knowing leaves us unable to really try and figure out with any real certainty what Titus did that night. Speculation is literally the only place we can get without knowing for sure one way or another, and anything built on speculation can be manipulated to scum advantage.

QED - The only possible reason for Shiro to be killed last night was to deny us specific knowledge about whether Titus was honest or lied about the team list. I would add "wifom" as an additional reason but that basically is a given for nearly all scum kills so shouldn't be necessary for me to point out.


Obviously I'm way behind and catching up. See you all in the future when I get there.

[Drixx]

Okay I'm sold so who would Titus give a power to that is a lurker. IMHO not Creature because he's got a target on his back at the end of Day Three. I'm thinking Toog or the worst or maybe UFO?

This is like a ghost hunt cause titus wouldn't choose who she wanted to give power to. it was her teammate so she had limited choices in first place. I don't think we can find scum by spinning the chess board here

I don't see Titus actively imploding on her buddy who could have gotten lynched instead of her. Scum Titus already bussed 123456789 on day one. Redirecting the lynch onto Creature if scum without powers is just bad but if he would be scum with powers is just even worse. If that went through that's like saving your right foot by cutting off your left leg.

In regards to you UFO you were saying it sure. However on Day Three when it mattered you waffled on Titus if memory serves and weren't voting Titus. What good are reads if you don't actually follow through with them? I don't take into factor your day one pushes for that reason. Your day one play is remarkably different. If anything it contributes to the narrative Titus was trying to sell and you could naturally change your mind. I don't think Titus anticipated being wagoned on day three like she was and got angry because of it.

you just don't understand how I play mafia

I knew titus was outed from the moment she claimed sando was *maybe bussing* her

the whole EOD thing was building another wagon so we could get reads off of that

I openly stated I faked a strong creature wolfread when I got concerned people were not lynching titus

get on my level

Don't you hate it when a level 2 player mistakes you for a level 1 player?

And before you ask, the answer is "One level higher than you."

*wave* to everyone who gets the quote. That maybe means I possibly had a small impact on sending you towards a fun way to learn some basic applied rationality. If you have no idea what I mean, google hpmor, set aside some spare time (put away any complaints about the "source" works since what you will be reading basically doesn't at all resemble them), and enjoy.

[Drixx]

need a hug drixx?

One should never say no to hugs. Life is short. Hugs are pleasant. QED.

[Drixx]

Furthermore Drixx was in no way sketchy.

well he was for a decent portion of the thread

I think nancy would have been a better mimic target tbh. She wasn't the topic enough and is just coasting and getting powers by me cause she looks cute :/ It's the day we should resolve her/talk about her more imo.

Also the day 1 was trog town meta 100%. his last minute protectiveness of titus is making me a little bit worried though. one thing about trog is that he over protects his scum mates. Like even if he wants to force that through he will.

Gonna keep beating this into you guys (most of whom I've played a lot with and should already know): Activity is never alignment indicative for me. There are a few very specific tells I am self-aware of which can pretty reliably figure out my alignment by day 3-4 at the worst. Activity just isn't in that area in any way.

I literally play as much as I have time for. Sometimes that means I'm in 2-3 newbie games doing IC or replace in play, modding a newbie game and playing in 1-2 large games (when I have oodles of free time). Other times I'm in a single game and don't have the time to apply my usual thoroughness to it. What

never

changes is this: I play as much as I have time for. I have never and will never lurk as a strategy. What the hell is the point of "playing" then? I could just volunteer to read scummies nominated games and leave my thoughts on them if I just want to read games (and would also read only the best games that way). It's just a bedrock thing for me.


* - Caveat: I do sometimes make plays or comments which require that I wait for the person(s) I want a response from before I explain what I'm doing. I have a pretty short limit on how long I'll wait before I move on though.


(Only 10 more pages! I might catch up before crashing to sleep).

[Drixx]

Drakura Sixx sounds like a band name

anyone wanna start a band?

will you be the vocals?

You don't get to take inspiration from my handle to make a band without me in it. I can play rhythm and lead guitar (Acoustic and electric) at a semi-professional level. I could probably do session work if there was worthwhile money and benefits in it. I'd probably enjoy that as a job too. Alas.

[Drixx]

Mathblade Sakura Shiro drixx nancy

Shiro’s dead
Drixx has BP.

This leaves Sakura myself and Nancy and FA out of yesterday’s claimed power recipients. I am assuming if you didn’t get a power you’d have said so by now.

Unless I misunderstand I don't have it. It's a one shot and I used it. I was observed using it in fact.

[Drixx]

lol. mathblade and i be townslipping not recognizing that sakura took bulletproof last night. so that effectively nullifies that argument, but sakura as leader might be a little more optimal because of her focus on townreading slots moreso than drixx. drixx says he doesn’t do very well with townreads, anyways.

Either I gave the wrong impression or you misunderstood me. I townhunt very well. I just don't generally

share

my town reads and reasons why until there's a reason to do so. It serves no value for me to signal to someone I'm very sure is town that I recognize it. All that accomplishes is putting them higher on scum's radar.

The proper time to reveal and explain townreads is when it gives you a boost in EV/WC. When I think I can lock the game up for a town win, I'll generally start throwing out things (ranging from subtle to overt) to firm up my reads and at some point (if left alive and nobody else is strongly townleading) I'll come out swinging for the fences.

The best example I can think of this off the top of my head is Steven Universe (in hydra with Cerberus). We collectively spent perhaps 100 hours about 1/3 of the way through the game to firm up our reasoning for town reads, and then some more time to make sure we hadn't missed something before we then dumped into the thread our theory of game. It's a little ironic that I feel like that game is the best example of my MO as a town leader when we lost that game but ... the context of that game mitigates it I suppose. We really did have the game to a "Town literally cannot lose unless a town player intentionally sabotages" state ... and a townie sabotaged.

Anyway ... don't want you to misunderstand how I roll. Think of me like an iceberg. You can see a little bit but you're not going to have any idea of what you can't see until I crash into you. (If you'll allow me to stretch the metaphor a bit).

[Drixx]

Colored Fruit Vendor
Petrification
Reflexive Power Mimicry (in other words you get hit with a power you get it)
Power Echo
Self Detonation (available during the day)
Tracker

Still at work people

Jesus tomorrow is gonna be important not to give scum any power chance. If Self Detonation does what I think it does ...

[Drixx]

lol. mathblade and i be townslipping not recognizing that sakura took bulletproof last night. so that effectively nullifies that argument, but sakura as leader might be a little more optimal because of her focus on townreading slots moreso than drixx. drixx says he doesn’t do very well with townreads, anyways.

Either I gave the wrong impression or you misunderstood me. I townhunt very well. I just don't generally

share

my town reads and reasons why until there's a reason to do so. It serves no value for me to signal to someone I'm very sure is town that I recognize it. All that accomplishes is putting them higher on scum's radar.

The proper time to reveal and explain townreads is when it gives you a boost in EV/WC. When I think I can lock the game up for a town win, I'll generally start throwing out things (ranging from subtle to overt) to firm up my reads and at some point (if left alive and nobody else is strongly townleading) I'll come out swinging for the fences.

The best example I can think of this off the top of my head is Steven Universe (in hydra with Cerberus). We collectively spent perhaps 100 hours about 1/3 of the way through the game to firm up our reasoning for town reads, and then some more time to make sure we hadn't missed something before we then dumped into the thread our theory of game. It's a little ironic that I feel like that game is the best example of my MO as a town leader when we lost that game but ... the context of that game mitigates it I suppose. We really did have the game to a "Town literally cannot lose unless a town player intentionally sabotages" state ... and a townie sabotaged.

Anyway ... don't want you to misunderstand how I roll. Think of me like an iceberg. You can see a little bit but you're not going to have any idea of what you can't see until I crash into you. (If you'll allow me to stretch the metaphor a bit).

I think the metaphor is on the nose because IMHO we are at the same point of can’t lose unless a townie sabotages. But are you talking SU or SU2 because you were scum in SU2.

SU. We had our townblock reasoned out really solidly. We even figured out the lynchbait was town. We had already caught Titus slipping and bagged her and a scum partner from the slip. The day the sabotage happened, we info dumped who was town. We tested the lynchbait to make sure we were right and they passed with flying colors (but because we like NEVER unvote, either of us, because we both just don't view voting as the same kind of tool most people do ... it left that person within potential lynch range if shenanigans). -- So then we tell the game the exact order of lynches which results in a guaranteed town win, with the reasons why.

The claimed miller (who had said himself the prior game day that he had to eat rope before end game due to the whole miller thing) didn't like that they were at the top of the lynch order and in a pique of spite pulled shenanigans and hammered the lynchbait scum had worked so hard to set up and whom we had posted an ironclad clear of.

Like ... literally if we just freaking unvoted that game was impossible to lose.

But ... it's a game. Everyone plays for their own reasons. I can't tell that player who decided to make a spite play that they have no right to do that. Perhaps they weren't convinced by our logical reasoning which cleared the lynchbait and thought they would "show" us by hammering and the game would end and they could rub our face in it or something.

So yeah ... absolutely can and do make town reads. I'll even step up and town lead when I'm ready if someone else isn't already doing the job. One of the first things I learned once I got to a sufficient level of town play is that's it's an absolutely miserably stupid idea to try and jump in and lead town if someone else is already doing a good job of it. If they fuck up or get something wrong ... can always say something... but trying to push them out and lead instead is just a recipe for a shit sandwhich.

Combine that with the fact that I am very deliberate ... there's only a few games where I needed to do more than share my thoughts/reasoning and actually lead the town. You can find them if you want but you can also find a ton of games where someone else is handling the charismatic part and I'm able to obvtown to them and stay low key.

Generally I feel like scum kind of just never feel threatened by me until it's too late; at least ... not usually threatened enough to NK me (although sometimes they will go to the trouble of killing me twice because you know ... reasons). Part of it is that a lot of players (nobody in particular in this game) just don't think I'm any good at town or whatever. Part of it is inexperience with me. Part of it is who the hell knows. But I will admit that it feels nice to be the default night kill. There was a good like 2 years on my home site where I was either the night one kill or the day two lynch. Like clockwork the game would just see if I died night one and if not they lynched me. Wasn't so fun.

I'm tired. See ya'll on the flip side.

[Drixx]

would also kill Drixx

This is basically an endorsement coming from Nero. I can't recall a game we've played together where I was town and he didn't scum read me. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

[Drixx]

would also kill Drixx

This is basically an endorsement coming from Nero. I can't recall a game we've played together where I was town and he didn't scum read me. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

Are you sure we've even had a town game together? The only two games that I remember playing with you are Civ and Coal Miners and you were scum in both.

Lol. Pretty sure we've had quite a lot more than two games together. Nice selective recall though.

Rabbit trail thoughts:

I'm always confused when people bring up Civ mafia and scum!Drixx though. I signed up for Civ prior to Mastina forcing me to invest like ~100 hours on the final day of SU2, with the promise she would actually put in the time and have an actual reason to vote for us (Cerb+Me as RR) which

wasn't

"You're too good as scum. I'd rather lose with you than

to

you." which was basically the sole reason she had to vote us. Like ... okay respect is great but basically that said "My ego is worth more than conceding that I have absolutely no reason to believe you are scum and acting accordingly and if you are scum I can kudos you for pulling it off" which was a pretty solid kick to the nuts ... especially when we played like the last 2.5 to 3 months real time of that game as the final scum and despite believing we were in a no win position for all of that time we still gave absolute 100% effort.

So yeah ... that happened. Then I got rolled as scum in Civ. With Mastina. I should have just immediately replaced out at that point, but I have a lot of affection and respect for that player/mod so I tried to stay in. I realized after day one that I wasn't really in the headspace to even

try

working with Mastina at that point, and I didn't want to zero effort the game so I replaced out. -- At the time I replaced out I had put out a pretty absurdly bold gambit though, AND someone kindly bucked and took the wonder so I would never have had to "pay up" on the gambit. If I had stayed in, I think I could have done a good job in that game ... assuming I would have had the mental reserves to give it the time it deserved.

But umm... what I actually DID in that game was not a lot and I'm not sure why people reference it. The gambit I was running on day one wasn't particularly noteworthy I don't think.

I will admit to Gold Miner $laughter being a good scum game but it wasn't exactly a very big or long game.

End rabbit trail.

I mean ... I think it shouldn't take much effort to go find games with us together and me as town and you scum reading me. If it matters that much to you, I can do a quick run through my game history and just take a quick look at activity log to see if you were there and then your ISO. My brain says you literally always call me scum when I'm town. I listen to my brain and verify as needed.


@Nos - Sure man. I'll shred. I'm actually sad we're not going to make the Drakura Sixx a real thing now.

[Drixx]

Nice selective recall though.

or maybe I'm remembering our last two games? Expecting me to remember players lists from years ago when you barely post, to begin with, is the most asine thing I've ever heard. But actually looking in your game list there was the canceled Real folk blues (2016). I

WAS

scum reading your slot but House is kinda a scummy vi and I know that I was scumreading that head. There was Ny183 (2015) where myself and I assume others thought you were scummy as fuck b/c you were a prodgeing lurker. So yes, your statement is

KINDA

correct but I feel like scum reading a derp head and suspecting a do nothing lurker doesn't make me some horribly bad person at reading you and your statement is just kinda discredity and maybe a little immature? Sorry for not remembering games that are 2 and 3 years old? And before you go "but we've played more games!" we have, but those don't count b/c one of us were scum in all those games and we are specifically talking about games where BOTH of us are town.

I mean yeah, at some point I'll sit down and we can do a back and forth and all that jazz and maybe get some other opinions. Like just b/c my reaction off of a limited set of data kinda made me lean scum doesn't mean I'm super invested in a "Drixx has to be scum!" but your reaction kinda makes me think I'm right. IDK, we'll see how I feel after we do the thing.

Dude ... take a joke for a joke. Do you really need /j or /s tags?

[Drixx]

apparently. Why should I have taken that as a joke and not as some limp-wristed pushback?

I think the ppl calling Toog scum are either lazy, argumentative town, or scum thats like overcompensating or some combination of. Toog is getting lynched today. Whether he's just town that is just like "oh hey, I'm expendable and I screwed up." or he's scum that's

Ate

ing and/o his team wants to bus him for the town cred.

Nah man. Pretty much everyone who has played with me regularly defaults to assuming I'm scum until they have reason to believe otherwise. Being called scummy is basically irrelevant to me. I just thought I'd crack a joke to welcome you to the game and you took it serious.

[Drixx]

I'm back around; gonna be up awhile but I'm about 20 pages or so behind atm. See you all in the future again.

[Drixx]

I'm back around; gonna be up awhile but I'm about 20 pages or so behind atm. See you all in the future again.

nice prod dodge

Not really meant as a prod dodge. Go read my GTKAS and you'll understand why I'm busy in early August. I'm reading as fast as I can and posting whenever I can.

Like ... I guess let's get this out of the way: Do you actually have a scum read on me? If so: why? (i.e. make a case)

If you don't then I have to wonder why you're fine with a huge chunk of people who literally are always even less active than I can be right now ... some of whom are in this game and doing exactly that right now. Why am I getting "special treatment"? I mean ... obviously I'm special, but not in

that

way.

In any case I'm going back to continue catching up. While catching up I've got 3 main things I'm thinking about:

1.) Who might be in the "townblock" and just playing a good scum game, and I'm looking for things I've found over the years which can give that away.
2.) Firming up town reads as I can. Case by case basis.
3.) Evaluating the "flying under the radar" crowd. <--- takes the most effort.

Got any specific questions while I'm here in the future?

[Drixx]

Math ... while I'm catching up another chunk of pages, can you gist me on current situation please?

[Drixx]

Math ... while I'm catching up another chunk of pages, can you gist me on current situation please?

Did you still need this? I have about another 30 minutes before I have to go to sleep.

Better if there's anything in particular you want me to look at or any particular questions.

[Drixx]

Math ... while I'm catching up another chunk of pages, can you gist me on current situation please?

Did you still need this? I have about another 30 minutes before I have to go to sleep.

Better if there's anything in particular you want me to look at or any particular questions.

The suicide bomb plan would be good for you to look at if you could. Make sure we're not fucking anything up.

(Tomorrow one of the powers available is suicide bomb so the high level idea is we just explode all over the people who could be scum.
Gonna write up a post on the specifics here in a sec. )

Can you point me at when the plan changed from me as the backup leader candidate to someone else, why that happened and who pushed for it?

[Drixx]

Further, her buddies didn't move in on me when Titus tried to set up a wagon on me, which says to me that they were already trying to not get tied with Titus.

This post pings me a bit. The reasoning is very flawed.

Let's say that Titus knows she's going to go down. Is trying to set up a wagon on a buddy that has no real chance to succeed within her scum range? Absolutely. Would doing that be useful if said scumbuddy wanted to push the idea later that said wagon didn't move because "the scums" were distancing from Titus? Yep.

So ... hebichan the kind of player who just overlooks the faulty logic?

[Drixx]

kinda me. I put a case on you and others find you sketchy. Like even if I was against you being backup leader (which I am!) it takes more than just me.

Did you ever bother to make a case or are you still just throwing shit against the wall to see if it sticks?

[Drixx]

Making no negative implication about FA's alignment ... it's unwise to have FA in the running again while we're still trying to figure out why people who should have had protection keep dying. There's some okay speculation about it but that's all we have ... speculation. The possibility space is too wide to just run with that as "the answer".

I think the bomb idea isn't necessarily bad; however, it is really risky and probably isn't a strong EV play. Like... we're in a really good situation and it seems like we're quite ahead. But that feeling that we're really secure is not necessarily accurate. I'm not sure it's a great idea to start setting up a situation where we potentially hand scum extra deaths. If you want to break it down to the most basic numbers: town have X mislynches and then we lose while scum have Y players and need only to keep one from being lynched to the end.

Like ... even if we have strong corporate reads and we hand bomb to someone who really is town ... that doesn't necessarily mean we're correct in the targeting. There's also the chance the player decides to freelance. (For example: If Nero is town and was given bomb, 99% he blows me and him up). So there's a risk that reads are wrong and even precise following of the plan just hands the scum two extra dead town plus if they get a mislynch and a night kill on the night before and night after we see a streak of 5 straight town deaths.

That doesn't even account for if a scum slips into the team and also takes bomb.

If the ATE isn't ATE but is actual town just giving up then this plan could result in the following nightmare scenario:

Town lynched today.
Town dies tonight.
2+ bombs go off tomorrow and 3-4 town die (can't rule out a townie taking it because they "know better")
Town dies tomorrow night.

That's the absolute worst case I know but ... if seven consecutive town deaths happen ... we're in serious trouble.

Just off the top of my head that would be the "Let's slow down and actually think through the risk vs. reward on this" -- did someone actually walk through the math and make sure that it's actually a good idea? My first instinct with that is to suggest no town players snag it. IF it gets picked up and used then it's a 1-for-1 trade which is always in town's favor. Town using the bomb is NOT always going to end up in town's favor.

I mean ... I'm assuming somewhere in the pages I need to read at least

someone

thought it through and talked about it but ... maybe not?


As far as me being leader goes: I don't have any particularly strong argument that I should be. I'm still probably 2 day phases (realistically) away from a significant increase in time available, so it's not like there's any particular reason to try and hard protect me. I would suggest finding a consensus backup that isn't FA though. I'm going to invoke the "I notice that I am confused" rule of rationality in terms of what happens when I think about the proposed explanations for why the kills have gone through on people who should have had BP. The only speculation that actually explains it completely would be that scum just get strongman and the superpower was meant for some other use or is a red herring.

But like ... I'm not sure if anyone actually knows what I'm saying when I say "I notice that I am confused" in that context.

Super stream of consciousness here. Feel free to ask questions. I'm currently on a side trail ISOing Hebichan.

[Drixx]

and of course, Drixx leaves. :/

No. Drixx sat and thought about the suicide bomber mechanic for a few minutes and asked himself just how bad it could go worst case. I mean ... I did pop a joke at your expense when you replaced in, but you seem to have a hard on for discrediting me.

@Math: Did nobody really just sit and think about it yet?

If no town take suicide bomber, the absolute worst case is that scum slip in and get it but they have to trade out 1-for-1 which is literally not a strategy that helps them. If town DO take it ... there is obviously in the possibility space the bombing just ending the game with a win ... but I think just from the basic numbers it's significantly more likely that it actually hurts our position.

[Drixx]

I put a case on you

Did you ever bother to make a case

Sometimes I think you are just scum that's trying to exhaust me. TBF, I am pretty fed up.

I'm not sure your idea of "a case" and my idea of "a case" are even in the same continent. I'll go ISO dive real fast.

[Drixx]

I've been thinking on that. It makes a fuck ton of sense for a Drixxscum to kill Cerb who was misreading him as town. Of course, it's just WIFOM but yeah....

This is horrible logic Nero. The very first person Cerb would suspect when he dies is me. I think I flat out said that a scum me would kill Cerb out of the game pretty much all the time. (I mean ... probably not night one because it's shitty to die night one when you play the way he and I do but... point stands).

I'm not sure Cerb was actually town reading me on day one while he was alive. I was like not really around much at all on day one. Wedding anniversary and such. Day ended literally while I was reading through pages and putting thoughts in notepad to post.

My sense of things is that Cerb made the thing with Shiro so difficult (refusing to answer my questions which confirmed that HE was relaying info as well as confirming Shiro as SM in a situation where the night events were confusing) because he wanted to see how I would respond to it. He wouldn't need to waste energy on Shiro because Shiro was going to be relaying Cerb accurately if there really was an SM connection going on. The moment I chose to ask questions that only Cerb could possible answer, Shiro could never afford to do anything other than accurately relay what Cerb wanted us to see.

You should also look into the interaction I had with Titus. She tried to get the question for Cerb to be a reference to a game that She, Cerb, Varsoon and myself are (off and on) working on. With Shiro being dead, that seems like an intentional move on her part to try and get me really suspicious of Shiro. It also now puts me in a situation where there's an interaction there which could be viewed as Titus distancing from me via some classic scum theatre.


At some point (thought I quoted it but I guess not) you expressed some kind of idea that me trying to confirm Shiro was the point of my posting at that stage in the game ... as if that were a BAD thing. There was literally zero reason to even consider what was being represented as coming from Cerb until it was actually confirmed that Shiro was relaying info from Cerb. In order to do that, Shiro would have had to have taken SM. If Shiro took SM, then that removed Shiro as a possibility to explain someone who should have been BP dying.

Like ... what exactly is wrong with that? That was precisely what we needed to know to move forward. Why on earth wouldn't I want to confirm it was actually Cerb and at the same time get more info to reduce the possibility space for what had gone on at night? I'm legitimately confused at what you were going for there.

2136 Is the reason I 'd at Drixx.

This went on for way too much. As someone who is friend to both of you:

I kinda didn't like this that much. Like I could see him try to diffuse this fight between FA and Titus. He also kinda fencesits on her.

This post makes it look like you don't actually want to be playing forum mafia. Like ... if you think content coming from a certain slot is worthless to you, then just scroll right on by. No need for this crap.

This ends up making me wonder if you're just making posts like this for LAMIST or something

.

I didn't really like how he scolds at ZZ here. It doesn't really feel like scumhunting. I also feel like the bolded is ridiculously dumb and buzzword heat and not a town thought process.

That would be a really good way to get me (and probably others) to decide you need to eat rope. You cannot wind someone up and keep pushing them and then invoke policy lynch on them because they took your bait. It's dirty play.

This is what made me really suspicious, he's threatening ZZ with a lynch for pushing a Titus lynch.

This post feels like so much hedging from someone who is informed. Gut doesn't like.

fusses @ Tor for fussing @ Titus.

who did you vote for leader drixx?

The sad part is that you probably think you have some kind of "gotcha!" here. Whom I voted for is self-evident. You shouldn't have to ask because you should already know.

b/c he voted for Titus?

I guess I need to go diving on Titus now. I could see her doing this as scum and turning the WiFoM to her favor. I could also see several players in this list who would know putting Titus as leader right now would introduce a ton of confusion.

And it has

.

more fence sit.

Could someone explain th bold, how did electing Titus as leader cause confusion? Is this scumDrixx that knows scum is the leader and it will cause confusion.

But seriously ... Cerb being night killed early is literally always a reason to suspect me.

Does scumDrixx WIFOM a kill like this?

Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose.

voting someone for attacking Titus. Anyone notice a pattern yet?

kinda skimmed the rest of his ISO but I'm not really seeing much (any?) scumhunting. Mostly just defending himself and trying to figure out if Shiro had some wich I could see scum trying to do b/c it informs them about the setup. Part of me wants to say "Titus pushing back on Drixx makes a Titus/Drixx team not a thing" but that whole "anyone thats means to Titus or scumreads her I'll lynch" kinda irks me. Is that too obvious for scumbuddies? But then Toog is getting plenty of heat for defending Titus but Drixx isn't, so is Toog a scum led wagon?

There were a few kinda other sketchy things like he keeps telling ppl good post and stuff and kinda buddies his way through the game.

But defiantly our limited back and forth did play a huge role in my scum read.

7690 -ignore this guy, he can't read me

7691-is this true?

7692-Nero is lying/being selective

7693-look at all this evidence that proves this isn't

exactly

true.

7745-haha, I was just joking. Don't be so serious.

Nero after reading that-

1.) You really should go look at Space Dandy 2 if you want to understand why I would try and calm shit down when Titus is being wound up. That shit was unpleasant. None of us are playing this hobby to add stress to our life. I'm quite aware that many scum use that kind of thing as a technique but if you go looking I think you're going to find I have a pretty solid ethical line when it comes to abusing "personal" or "real life" things for gain when I'm scum. I find it pretty distasteful and have not at all enjoyed when stuff that wasn't really part of the game (or shouldn't have been) was used by scum against me. I try not to do it. You can take my word for that or go do some research.

2.) I'm not generally a buzzwords player. It's also amusing and perhaps a bit ironic to see you refer to LAMIST as a buzzword coming from me. As far as I'm aware, nobody knew what that meant the first half dozen times I used it when I first migrated to this site. Is it a "buzzword" if it came to the site from me?

3.) It's asinine to suggest I voted for Titus. Everyone else instantly understood that I was saying "of course I voted for Cerb again".

4.) Titus being elected was an unexpected result. It did actually cause confusion. It's precisely the kind of move Titus makes as scum. She put in a huge effort to make it seem like she had been set up.

5.) It's not even WiFoM. It's just the obvious truth. Like anyone alive in game who knows Cerb and I will tell you that I absolutely would kill him as scum. Pretty sure he would kill me also (although he may be cocky enough to try and mislynch me instead or try and sell me a half truth like when he was in a rare hydra with someone else and pulled out a 3P solo win by telling most of a truth). I would say that as any alignment so it's NAI.

6.) Again: ask anyone who plays with me regularly how I feel about abuse in forum mafia and how I respond when I see it. Or go look at games which had toxicity. Whether it is aimed at me or involves me or not I will basically ALWAYS stand up and say something about it. Drixx don't play that shit. Attack the play, not the player. -- So much so that I am blacklisted from playing games one of my favorite mods runs because I absolutely wouldn't let some jackhole get away with just abushing the shit out of everyone in the game (said game actually ended up abandoned by said mod because of how toxic it got).

7.) I never went after anyone for scumreading Titus. Read my ISO and you'll see me just point out that Titus was essentially logically lockscum when the vote claims for day 2 came out in such a way that scum obviously lied. Townies would have been honest about voting her so the fact that we didn't end up with a clear understanding of who elected her and why was pretty much rock solid reason to have her pretty heavily scum read. Her reaction to the situation was like 99% confirmation she was scum. Scum!Titus tries to handwave things away. Look at SU when Cerb and I caught her slip and she tried to say she was speaking with certainty about a VARSOON mechanic because she had seen the precise role before. Like ... lol. She tried to pull the same kind of thing here. She was "being framed".

I absolutely can like someone and defend them from abuse and still scum read them at the same time. Friendship and a general principle of advocating for less personal abuse in mafia games are not mutually exclusive from realizing a friend/target of abuse is scum and needs to be lynched.

8.) I'm pretty sure the most natural reading of my first post quoting you is that it's a joke. At most you could maybe misread it as a reaction test. When I'm actually suggesting someone is scum I tend to do it in something more significant than a one liner of snark.

And ... OF COURSE I argued the point with you when you responded. That's what I do. Like ... that doesn't have any bearing on the fact that I was just being snarky with you. I mean ... you even say that's the "meat" of your read. If that's your meat ... don't rely on it to get you through the winter friend.

[Drixx]

I am going to bed now Drixx. If you see any issue with this or have any other questions please speak up about it.

I think the safe spot is 4 bombs but can check my notes later.

I think you should actually sit down and do the math. I'm not coming to the same conclusion you are. Mostly because there's a hole in your logic for how to determine scum from town in the scenario, especially if more than one somehow gets into the team.

On the premise that scum may not have realized what I did (because it's a little counter-intuitive), I'm going to shut up and just tell you to run the numbers AND rethink that logic. I think you missed something but it was easy to miss so just mull it over. I think you'll catch it.

I obviously can't stop people doing it if they're determined since I don't have any say on who gets the team invite tonight ... but FWIW: I wouldn't pursue that strategy. It's not airtight and it has the potential to hand the scum a bunch of free kills they otherwise have to post and expose themselves by pushing to mislynch.

[Drixx]

Ummm ... didn't we already go over the part where I literally just relied on my memory and am fairly sure I meant to push someone else over it?

Like ... it's not really relevant WHO is abusing WHOM. Ever. Even if it's someone I personally don't care for on the receiving end. I'm going to say something. Now I almost feel obligated to go re-read a large chunk and see exactly what it was that seemed abusive to me and whom it came from ... except that person

probably

already got the point and I'm not sure how productive it would be to rehash that particular bit of ground yet again.

[Drixx]

But seriously ... Cerb being night killed early is literally always a reason to suspect me.

also what about this changed now that you said that's a horrible reason to suspect you to nero?

I said that it's not alignment indicative for me to say what I did in 2146. I would say as any alignment/role that Cerb being killed off early is a reason to suspect me. Nobody has more respect for his skill and competence than I do. We've typed something like 5 million words in hydra chat with one another.

Cerb dying early isn't a horrible reason to suspect me. My post #2146 is NAI and Nero was suggesting that scum!Drixx would say that but perhaps !scumDrixx would not.

[Drixx]

Sorry for bringing up old stuff and sorry if I'm repeating others I haven't read most of today

I guess I need to go diving on Titus now. I could see her doing this as scum and turning the WiFoM to her favor. I could also see several players in this list who would know putting Titus as leader right now would introduce a ton of confusion. And it has.

I think claims of who you voted for should stop and someone super trusted (FA seems like the best choice) to make an ordered list and have folks claim. There are a few good reasons to do this and the less said about them before we do it the better.

drixx how did you proceed from this post to #2136 (attacking the people who were pushing titus or baiting her as you mentioned)?

Already addressed but perhaps I wasn't clear.

I can scum read someone and literally say that they are essentially lockscum and need to eat rope. I can,

at the same time

, view that person as a friend and even jump into the fray if that person is being personally abused. It's not mutually exclusive.

One thing is solving the game. The other is trying to reign in the incivility which has been slowly building over the years on this site.

[Drixx]

Just for the record: Titus did not put me on the team or give me powers or anything. I think a town!Titus would have given me a power choice 99 times out of a 100 given the game state at end of day and the very high likelihood that she gets roped today. Especially with Cerb already dead. I also would have expected a scum!Titus to do so as well and try and convince me she's town and to help her avoid getting roped; however, I can also see scum!Titus trying to play at level 2 and take advantage of that expectation by not throwing me a power.

This is actually a pretty good look for drixx tbh

why would scum titus not give scum drixx power or to give him that secretly which would look bad for her. I can't see drixx and titus being a pair

Sorry what am I missing, why can't Drixx be lying about this?

Ummm ... you're missing why on earth would Titus and I put that in the thread? Like ... if you want to posit us as scum together ... why don't I just "confirm" I was on the team?

Like ... the reasoning for my particular argument that Titus was scum came in 3-4 parts:

1.) The votes as reported weren't an adequate explanation. Town who voted for Titus would have just said so. Scum voting a Scum!Titus in as leader would lie about whom they voted or be among the unusually large group who claimed no vote/forgot.

2.) Titus responded to being made leader in classic scum!Titus fashion.

3.) As leader, there's no world where a town Titus doesn't include me in the team. It's not even relevant how she reads me. Either she would have a town read on me and want to work together or she would suspect me and want to lull me into complacency.

4.) Despite me actually making a small case against her, Titus tried to claim I was scum reading her because she left me off the team.
4a.) It was just icing on the cake really, but Titus trying to screw with the Cerb confirmation question and have it be info she was party to was just scummy.

[Drixx]

I was given a power.


Do I really have one or not?

Someone literally reported watching me use the power. That kind of means you don't just have to take my word for it.

[Drixx]

Didn't he get some BP power though?

He got powers N1 and I think he said he chose medium instead of BP.

I was most definitely not on the team night one either. Did I wander into a parallel dimension or something?

[Drixx]

but how can we tell if Titus/Drixx are lying?

Occam's Razor might help.

I'm off to sleep. 4:30am.

[Drixx]

@Nero - Dude. Snark and rhetoric are

NOT

the same thing as abuse. Everyone who knows Titus (and Mathblade for that matter) knows how to wind them up personally. That's abuse. Me being tongue in cheek is NOT abuse.

Every single "point" in your case against me as a bunch of NAI shit. Obviously if I were scum, I did and would do those things. I didn't even try to say otherwise.

So if you have a bunch of stuff that is literally (by your own definition) WiFoM, then you look at the overall picture. In what world do I even at all go along with doing anything to try and help Titus after day one if I'm scum with her? You know (or should know) how ruthlessly I will cut bait on a scum partner who screws up and is an inevitable lynch. You've just spent an inordinate amount of time pointing out that I did none of the things I would normally do as scum with a doomed teammate. Like ... 1+1 is not hard man.

Drop the tunnel goggles if you're town. You're wasting a lot of effort to no good end. If you are as good as you think, I dropped a pretty strong town tell quite awhile back. I'm certain at least two people caught it. If I count Math who was already sure before I did it, then that would be three ... but I'm not sure Math was actually bothering to look at that point.


@math: you're missing a huge problem in terms of being able to determine if any scum make it into the team. You're assuming that you can isolate them in a way that you can't. I really don't want to say more and I shouldn't have even said this I don't think. -- You did catch the math problem though which is good. I'm pretty sure that we lose a little EV with the suicide vest plan, with the upside obviously being a faster win.

So ... do we want to play mafia and leverage a strong position to maintain a near 100% EWR or do we want to gamble a significant amount of that to try and win sooner? I mean ... I've not had to work as hard this game to get to this state. You and a couple others have done the heavy lifting. What I

can

tell you from past experience where Cerb and I solve the game and we tell the game exactly what's going on and we have it set up for a win and then people do dumb shit and we lose ... that is crazy frustrating and has gotten super old. I highly do NOT recommend it.

All it would take is for one of the scums to have played a strong game so far and be in a super trusted spot and using 2-3 suicide vest takes out 4-6 townies. That takes away 2-3 cycles where they have to keep playing a really strong game. In this case I really feel like time is an ally. It's really hard to be scum but keep up a realistic narrative that you are town for real time months on end. Believe me because I have done it before a few times and it takes a toll. (Smite and SU2 are the games that come immediately to mind where I played alone as last scum for months in real time; I enjoyed both games but needed to recharge mentally after each one).

You know me well enough to know that I have very strong reasons behind what I'm saying. If there were some way for us to freaking neighborize I would really love to do an unfiltered thought dump right about now.

[Drixx]

A few thoughts ... some of which are left over from last day phase because thread locked while I was putting together a post.

1.) I took the doctor like ability last night and targeted our current leader with it. Figured it couldn't hurt and might save a kill. I didn't see any watch report so posting what I did in case someone was waiting to see what I would say.

2.) There's some serious intellectual dishonesty in the late part of yesterday. At least twice (and perhaps more often), I made it clear that my brain wasn't braining properly when I voted on day 2. I did NOT vote the person I felt was crossing the line with Titus. That doesn't change the fact that Titus was being wound up intentionally. Anyone who knows Titus and goes and reads even a small part of day 2 will know that. I am thus a little bit concerned that a couple people are pretending like I'm insisting that the particular vote I made was tied to my reasoning. I wasn't even the least bit obtuse in admitting that my memory was incorrect and I voted the wrong person.

2a.) Just as a side note: That gave Titus a really good reason to go way lower activity in day 2 than her usual self.

3.) I still think the suicide bombing plan is bad because giving scum what amounts to free mislynches is never a good idea and I don't think the game state warrants the risk.

4.) Someone yesterday implied that when I said I had dropped a town tell earlier in the game that I was referring to a

TRUST TELL

. They're not the same thing. A trust tell is something a person only does as one alignment or the other and then having established that meta they

refer to it in an attempt to take advantage of it

. That's not really at all what I mean. If you haven't played with me enough, then you didn't catch it, and that's fine. Some in this list have played with me often enough they would find it in my ISO.

[Drixx]

I did NOT vote the person I felt was crossing the line with Titus. That doesn't change the fact that Titus was being wound up intentionally. Anyone who knows Titus and goes and reads even a small part of day 2 will know that. I am thus a little bit concerned that a couple people are pretending like I'm insisting that the particular vote I made was tied to my reasoning. I wasn't even the least bit obtuse in admitting that my memory was incorrect and I voted the wrong person.

You literally said I was being voted because I was winding Titus up for no reason and making the game toxic:

Sando you got voted because you were literally intentionally winding Titus up to no possible town purpose. There was no good motivation to do what you were doing. It was toxic to the game state and so you are either scum and you were doing it to try and get Titus chasing in circles (which would merit re-evaluating Titus) or you were town doing it and just not giving a shit that you were making the game toxic.

And I've said

several

times no since then that I was relying upon my memory and didn't go back and check. It happens. Generally my memory is pretty reliable. Like ... it's not like my ISO is very long. The fact that you keep pretending like I didn't long ago thousands of posts back already disconnect YOU from the thing I was talking about really seems to be more and more of a stretch the more time goes on and the more times I say so.

[Drixx]

1.) I took the doctor like ability last night and targeted our current leader with it. Figured it couldn't hurt and might save a kill. I didn't see any watch report so posting what I did in case someone was waiting to see what I would say.

im glad you actually tried to prevent a kill on me, but a power negate would've nullified it, did you miss my posts where i said i would 100% SS a BP?

There's too much unknown in the game to be certain. I wanted to be certain.

[Drixx]

3.) I still think the suicide bombing plan is bad because giving scum what amounts to free mislynches is never a good idea and I don't think the game state warrants the risk.

This is actually either scum tmi or blatantly the worst posting I've ever seen. You're literally assuming all 3 scum are in the townblock, lol.

People actually have expressed a belief that I'm scum. That dramatically raises my paranoia about the townblock being infiltrated. At this point, I am reassessing as much as is possible in a game of this length.

[Drixx]

I'm not sure what you want me to answer there Math. I already told you there's a flaw and gave you a hint. I don't think it's prudent at all to tell scum how to maximize utility in the current gamestate.

I mean ... I skimmed a shit load of pages from yesterday so if there's other outstanding things ... let me know but I think I already told you why I think the bomb plan is bad. You asked for a sanity check. I gave it. It's up to you whether you trust me or don't.

[Drixx]

This is quite literally the same problem from the day petrification was offered the first time.
Like I do not understand your answer.
A sanity check includes WHY and the rational points of interaction.
Mafia is inherently a game of risk.
There is nothing we can be certain over but I feel the plan I suggested minimizes that risk.

Okay. I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. Please remember that I try and think of the worst possible case, and I also got burned by not being pessimistic enough before.

I actually messed up the math yesterday because the bombs were an extra day further away.

15 alive today. Worst case scenario we get:

Mislynch today, kill tonight. Three bombs go off and are all townies killing townies. That's 8 out of 15 dead leaving us at 4v3 tomorrow once the bombs go off. We

should

win in that case unless you are scum (because even if you leave me alive that long I won't be able to win a 1v1 with you at this point and the whole game would agree with that).

But here's the problem (and the thing I really didn't feel like I should say). We have been

assuming

we know why kills went through on people who had access to BP. It's plausible that our assumptions are correct. It's also possible that there's something in play we're not aware of. I cannot put together a sound premise/conclusion combination for our assumption set.

So let's say that we assign 3 people to get the suicide vest and 2 of them blow up and both they and their targets are town. The third person; however, claims to have attempted to do their blow up and it doesn't happen. At that point we're going to have 9 people alive. So what are the possibilities in that case?

1.) The person is telling the truth and is town. -- We lynch them on the assumption they are lying and they flip green. We are then at 5v3 going into the night. Night kill happens. We have a 4v3 the next day.

So we just lynch the target of that mislynch right?

See the problem yet?

As I said before: I'm not trying to overrule people who have put more time than me into this game. If everyone weighs it and they're good with the plan, then let's get it on.


@Nero - My base asumption at the moment is that scum are outside the generally accepted town block. Given the amount of posts and replacements, I don't think it's possible with the time available to me at the moment for me to go try and go down that rabbit hole, so at the moment (during night phase and as I can now) I'm reassessing the people who are generally accepted as town and making sure I have good reasons to agree with those assessments.

Do you have anyone in particular you want a Drixx take on?

[Drixx]

I believe drixx is always town and was not secretly chosen by titus on n2 because drixx would either use his n2 power (like power negate for instance), or pick something that can be remotely useful as scum instead of impenetrable skin.

Correct conclusion but there's a flawed premise in there. Go reread what Impenetrable Skin does. Then tell me what being targeted by a player with a bomb would be.

[Drixx]

and I disagree. Just b/c he's not the "hidden scum" doesn't mean we should not be NOT flipping him. Unless you think he's like totally town which I'd like to hear why.

That’s a fair point, there could be more than one hidden scum but only one who got a power instead of Ank. So, being confirmed as not having used a power on the night UFO checks them doesn’t clear anyone of not being scum, only does not implicate them of using a hidden power on that particular night.

it doesn't, yeah. I actually have an extremely weak power.

I feel uneasy with drixx btw. I think the worst said they were scummy, and while I don't exactly feel the same way, I also don't feel he was ever really towny and I'm not sure I believe he honestly believes killing our entire POE is a bad thing. that suicide bombing will absolutely trash mafia, because even if they're all outside of the POE, we're gonna nuke all of their possible mislynches while not giving mafia any night kills. IDK exactly how the bombing works but it can NEVER be a bad thing, unless we give the ability to mafia.

I volunteer to do it too btw. if people are scared of giving it to POE'd down players and they end up nuking half the town, just give it to me cause you know I'm town, right? RIGHT?

Do you

really

think I would do anything to dissuade this plan if I'm scum? Have you bothered to go look at any of the scum games that make people paranoid of me? (Don't go look at Civ. I have no fucking idea why people strongly link me to that game. I ran a gambit and it would eventually have outed me (but would have bought me a LONG time in the game to subvert town) except a townie actually SAVED me from ever having to get caught out by the gambit ... I didn't actually do anything notable in that game. Scum will make a long term sacrifice all the time).

I mean ... if you really think that, you should be pushing for me to be handed a bomb to use.

[Drixx]

should we claim who we voted for?
also thoughts on the fact D1 elected person probably has reasonably high scum equity?

like I talked myself out of it because surely that'd be too obvious but unless she got 2 votes and everyone else got 1 it's a question



ftr I voted Nancy Drew 39

Spoiler:

< 3

I was having a tough time deciding who to vote for. I eventually narrowed it down to Cerberus, you and Katsuki.

I ultimately decided on Cerb

, because he is the most Reasonably Rational player here.

*wah wah*

[Drixx]

Math - The only problem with your conclusion paired with what I pointed out is this: What if I missed something or there is info that we don't have which impacts the calculus? Like ... my memory says that SD2 was scum winnable on day 1. Scum just didn't realize what Cerb and I realized and so the game actually went on awhile but I'm pretty sure once the full scope of things was open, it was literally possible for scum to win that game day one.

Obviously this isn't that game. That does NOT mean; however, that there's not something hidden which we are not accounting for. I'm a little concerned that I'm the

only

voice trying to question the plan that potentially kills six town. That means that either scum just gave up and aren't trying at all OR they are perfectly fine with the plan. Me speaking up (with a few people expressing doubts on me) gives cover for scum to agree with me and yet ...

[Drixx]

should we claim who we voted for?
also thoughts on the fact D1 elected person probably has reasonably high scum equity?

like I talked myself out of it because surely that'd be too obvious but unless she got 2 votes and everyone else got 1 it's a question



ftr I voted Nancy Drew 39

Spoiler:

< 3

I was having a tough time deciding who to vote for. I eventually narrowed it down to Cerberus, you and Katsuki.

I ultimately decided on Cerb

, because he is the most Reasonably Rational player here.

*wah wah*

???


Oh great, as if understanding Mathspeak wasn’t freaking hard enough.

Cerb and I are Reasonably Rational. You said he's the most. *sad face*

[Drixx]

tell me what's wrong with this idea:

we have the lock town players getting powers

we have one of these players using self detonate on a target

we have all the other players using power echo on the self detonate player, and direct it to other targets

what's the flaw in this?

If they block/nagate the detonate all the kills will be stopped

if scum has power negation and we are giving 3 townies bombs to explode themselves with, the scum will only let the TvT kills go through. if scum is one of the people we elect to use the bomb, they will just use power echo instead, or get some other ability and create WIFOM when neither side dies at night.

yeah that was what I was trying to say. math was trying to say we have enough lynch to clear the game even if someone gets framed by a block though.

power echo is a bad use of action for this plan though

Exactly. If scum are able to stop one of the bombs,

AND

both of the people in that bomb set are town ... then they have a path to victory. It's irrelevant which of them we lynch "first" if both are town.

I mean ... it becomes much less of a risk if Creature is scum. I'm not saying it's a suicide plan. I'm just saying that if it should happen that the six people in the bombing pairs are town ... then scum have a path to victory.

[Drixx]

Yeah and your comment made me pissed off.

Like the hell is wrong with you?

We're finding a plan that will kill 6 players instantly. If we fuck up even in slightest its a fucking gg

So yes ofcourse we will talk about it and it's possible flaws.

I have spent for fucking ever on this.

And then you say the “safer” plan is the one that for all intents actually isn’t.

Like I proposed this yesterday and there was no issues except Drixx. And he has yet to bring up an issue with it.

I am just so beyond pissed I can’t talk straight.

Sakura wanted this done in 24 hours and I feel like no one is actually fucking listening to what I am saying.

I can at least understand parts of what you say but I’m not exactly some statistics wiz but Drixx’s posts make my eyes glaze over for the most part. Like that recent post of mine he quoted. It was a response to UFO’s question about who I voted for leader on N0. I honestly don’t have any freaking clue what he actually thought it was about.

I was just tongue in cheek there Nancy. This game is supposed to be fun. I was just having a bit of fun evoking a bit of *sad face* for being viewed as the lesser head of RR. It's just banter and nothing more.

[Drixx]

scum doesn't have power negation

if scum had power negation, they wouldn't have killed stungun instead of someone in towncore

they'd likely not kill shiro who was hard defending titus and could be framed with power negation

we're d5 and no one has claimed to be roleblocked yet

they just don't have that power

This is not sound reasoning Toranaga. We're literally going down a path that could provide scum a chance to win. If they're all flying under the radar then they could be saving the usage of negate for the critical moment.

[Drixx]

Math is "town" as in he has a green pm, I'd be most worried about Drixx as scum. His use of the doctor ability yesterday was extremely shady and I don't think he's really explained his reasoning yet.

I did. You just don't agree with me about the potential for unknowns to screw with us. Since you have less experience with me than my brain said you did when you entered the game, I would suggest you go look at Space Dandy 2. Mostly just the post-game and then check the hydra PT between Cerberus and I. We thought we were being aggressively paranoid and even we didn't realize scum could win day one.

I can't know what is hidden from us in this game, so I choose to think of what is the worst case scenario possible and act accordingly. What was the worst case last night? If the primary leader choice was killed off, we would be in disarray. BP negates one "strength" of kills. Add strongman and it's a +2 kill so it needs BP plus another protection.

That's not really hard to understand is it?

[Drixx]

@Nero - I'd appreciate a concise and specific list after the game of what is "bad" and what is "scummy" and why. Bad needs fixing. Scummy to casual view I don't give a shit about. My job isn't to be the most obvious townie who ever towned and get myself night killed straightaway. Especially since I'm hilariously bad on day one. It's basically a signature of Drixx play that you are going to suspect me.

I can throw out posts which tend to result in town recognizing me. I've done so this game and most of the folks I believe are probably town seem to believe the same about me. That's sufficient for my purposes. As long as I can advance our win con, I don't mind dying from paranoia when it's safe for that to happen.

[Drixx]

that ultimately only benefits scum

I don't really think it does though.

My job isn't to be the most obvious townie who ever towned and get myself night killed straightaway

it

kinda

should. Like if scum aren't killing you it means you're not a threat to the scum team. Besides maybe questionable optimal PR play, town should always try to be a threat to scum. Of course, there are some town that are like "Well I'm going to be useless all game and then be townie late game."

BP negates one "strength" of kills. Add strongman and it's a +2 kill so it needs BP plus another protection.

This is bullshit.

This is exactly the wording the mod gives. If the mod is describing the powers in this game as "levels" or "layers", then I'm not gonna argue. Take out the word "strongman" and put in some other word that just makes the kill into a Kill+1 and stop being a pedant.

[Drixx]

@Nero - I'd appreciate a concise and specific list after the game of what is "bad" and what is "scummy" and why. Bad needs fixing. Scummy to casual view I don't give a shit about. My job isn't to be the most obvious townie who ever towned and get myself night killed straightaway. Especially since I'm hilariously bad on day one. It's basically a signature of Drixx play that you are going to suspect me.

this makes me want to self-harm

and by self-harm i mean bash my head into a wall repeatedly

Then I apparently didn't express myself in a way that you understand. The usual course for gameplay for me is to figure shit out and then dump it when I'm reasonably sure. If I draw a night kill prior to that, then I haven't done anything useful to advance wincon. So what, precisely, would be achieved by painting a gigantic ass target on myself?

There are several games that come to mind where I literally waited until I felt the time was right and then acted in such a way as to draw the night kill. Hell ... in Mafiaception I drew the kill twice because the first time didn't work. But even though they knew the first kill attempt failed, they went to the trouble of getting rid of me.

So umm ... you shouldn't self harm. Maybe try and find something of value in the play of others which is different than your own and add it to the toolbox. It's a game. The game has a wide spread of approaches and skillsets which can be used to play it.


But for real ... this is getting out of hand now. We've got people saying they will hurt/kill someone IRL over this game. And now we have someone saying they are contemplating permanent self harm. Can we dial that rhetoric back just a bit please?

[Drixx]

Since the plan got scrapped, I point out the obvious:

1.) Scum get handed bomb(s)
2.) Scum either set a triggered action for day start or just camp the game until day start to set off a bomb on Sakura.

And that's just one of several problems.

Like ... I

want

to believe that the game is solved and we could just speed up the win with Sakura picking 3 and only 3 people and forcing them to take bomb and bomb a specific target. It would be as simple as making a list of 5 people and telling each of them whom to bomb if they are given one and telling them to do the bomb tonight to avoid shenanigans (doing it during the day is problematic for reasons I assume people figured out already?).

But even as much as I've been thinking about it and how scum might subvert it ... my brain keeps saying that I'm missing something.


@Sakura - We're running down on time. If we're not bombing, we need to be gameplanning leadership swap and power pooling.

[Drixx]

A pile of the people in that town pool have BP. Then there's at least me with doc and self BP in play as well. How are they going to exclusively shoot at the town block again?

[Drixx]

I'm not sure who has what but the theory is still sound. If scum know why are lynching from the POE pool why would they shoot there? Of course, as you say the there are ppl in the town bloc with protection (not everyone though) Why did you feel the need to attempt to discredit this?

Are you going to scumhunt at any point?

If your definition of scumhunting is picking someone and just saying they are scum and putting together a horribly confbiased case up ... then probably not.

I asked you like a thousand posts ago or something absurd like that for SPECIFIC questions or people you wanted me to evaluate instead of a shotgun and you ignored it.

Not a good look Nero. Even less a good look when the game is over and you maintain your 100% rate of swearing I'm scum when I'm town.

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of inane thought process put you up for primary leader. I'll have to try just dropping a bunch of single line shit posts into games and see if that's a viable way to play.

[Drixx]

Hey Drixx, how do you feel about Nosferatu?

Queasy. Want an iso quotewall? (gonna take awhile if so but that slot seems like it might be worth the effort).

[Drixx]

I'm not sure who has what but the theory is still sound. If scum know why are lynching from the POE pool why would they shoot there? Of course, as you say the there are ppl in the town bloc with protection (not everyone though) Why did you feel the need to attempt to discredit this?

Are you going to scumhunt at any point?

If your definition of scumhunting is picking someone and just saying they are scum and putting together a horribly confbiased case up ... then probably not.

I asked you like a thousand posts ago or something absurd like that for SPECIFIC questions or people you wanted me to evaluate instead of a shotgun and you ignored it.

Not a good look Nero. Even less a good look when the game is over and you maintain your 100% rate of swearing I'm scum when I'm town.

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of inane thought process put you up for primary leader. I'll have to try just dropping a bunch of single line shit posts into games and see if that's a viable way to play.

Nice discredits. I shouldn't need to tell you what to do or how to play. If you are town then you scum hunt b/c it's your wincon. Of course, it's possible that you consider attacking all of Titus' attackers as scumhunting b/c that's all you've done and coast.

Keep telling yourself that sparky. Maybe if you say it enough times you'll actually believe it.

Speaking of discrediting ... what would you call your extremely selective memory on what I've done this game? I'm pretty sure I made several posts pointing out why Titus was scum. But you conveniently are forgetting those because you want people to believe I was trying to prevent her being lynched. Then there's the whole bomb plan which literally nobody was objecting to until I took the time to think about it and started posting that we should re-evaluate. Now we're not doing it.

But yeah ... go with I've just attacked "all" of Titu's attackers (an assertion which simply isn't demonstrable without bending yourself into a pretzel;) and otherwise coasted.

This is why I remembered playing with you while you didn't remember playing with me. You are universally fucking awful at this game, toxic towards people who so much as side eye you and completely irrational and impossible to actually play with.

[Drixx]

Also, as long as we don’t no lynch, Sakura is immune from all killing abilities.

Not tomorrow, Drixx concern is that if i give bomb to scum, they can just take me out at the start of the next day phase instead of during the night.
Also im still not sure on the use of the bomb, but if i DO use it, the player that has the superpower will be hidden until tomorrow, so Drixx should still protect Nero, and if scum wants to shoot into the lynchpool to try to hit him then they are helping us thin the lynchpool anyway.

If they take you out with a triggered activation, you cannot confirm to whom you offered powers, which could leave a nifty mess in the morning ... especially since you were at one point talking about non-specific pairing. Sure you can say ahead of time but ... that's just the tip of the iceberg on shenanigans. That's what I felt like I could say because there's an obvious way to prevent it being a huge deal and if scum want to trade out 1-for-1 then that's fine.

There's a whole host of other things.

You taking bomb and setting it off at night while you cannot die seems like a clever usage. I'm wondering why it took quite this long for anyone to get there but whatever. That also means I can doc someone who also takes it and sets it off at night. That person basically becomes the scum kill choice though I would think.

Still ... if we can pull it of that takes the downside out of the suicide bomb. You can't die and I can keep someone else from dying.

[Drixx]

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of inane thought process put you up for primary leader.

Because this is Nero's town meta with 95% certainty. You're free to look it up on your own if you dont believe me.

I’m fine with Nero for leader candidate.

There's two questions which are pertinent to the decision on that:

1.) Are we CERTAIN the person is town?
2.) Will the person be responsible and actually help town with the position?

I'm not convinced on the latter. So far all I've seen Nero do this game is tunnel so far up my ass he could floss for me.

[Drixx]

mathblade is scum.

read SS:

*Super Strength: Any actions you take this Night Phase cannot be blocked or manipulated.

THIS NIGHT PHASE.

he says he picked SS and didn't even use a night action. he strongmanned nothing? that's bullshit. mathblade is lying.

You are misunderstanding the power description.

SS has that effect

whenever you use it

. When you take the power, you do not automatically use it. You acquire a power each time the leader puts you on the team. You may choose one power to use. I have two now, for example. Anyone who took SS will get that benefit

the night phase in which it is in effect BECAUSE THEY USED IT

.

It's not a "I have this other power so I take SS and it empowers my normal power just this one night" thing.

[Drixx]

@Drixx

I can find one slight issue with that.

Most suicide bombs require the user to die.

I would make sure we ask the mod if the effect still fires if the first person lives and that a suicide bomb isn’t voluntarily giving up protection.

If the mod says yes the bomb still fires and Sakura’s immunity is still intact I am all for that.

Well yeah obviously. Gotta check and see what the mod says. Specifically it's going to require Sakura to ask because the mod won't answer questions about BP interactions right now (See rules about how long we have to ask about power interactions).

[Drixx]

Bomb plan worst case: tomorrow is LYLO

Use of doc/leader to turn bombs into vig worst case: 2 dead townies (if the targets are town) plus whatever worst case scum acquired powers can do.

I am still letting my brain do it's braining about the latter problem but my first pass instinct is to suggest that these two plans do not at all have the same worst case. Not even close. I also think it's probably not terribly useful if by definition the ability cannot be mitigated by leader/doc protection.

[Drixx]

you're also bringing up lots of good points against nero cain's slot

When was this? The most I've seen is "ur scummy 4 not worshipping Drixx!" If you mean he was making goof points against Kats then he's wrong as fuck (as usual)

My uneasiness is,

would Drixx protect the person scumreading him?

If not, you being a potential leader candidate, makes you practically a sitting duck for scum.

So, while I’m fine with you as leader candidate, I’m not sure if putting you in this vulnerable position

without guaranteed protection

, is the right move for town.

This shouldn't be a concern. Ever. I don't game throw. No matter what you posit as my alignment, I am basically obligated to protect Nero tonight or eat rope tomorrow.

If you want to see what scum me does with powers to emulate being town then go look. Regardless of how frustrated I am with Nero for cherry picking and pretending I'm doing nothing productive ... I'm not going to game throw over it.

Someone being petty and spiteful and wanting to "show" Cerb and me ultimately cost us the win in SU. I learned that lesson

very well

.

"I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand; He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun; He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."

There's probably a Dark Tower game coming to a Large Themed queue near you soon™

[Drixx]

drixx doc's nero
sakura echoes drixx onto me
me and nero take suicide bombing

we might wanna change leader votes as well

ausuka can protect herself tonight yes?

Considering all of the tension between Drixx/Nero, I’d feel a lot better if Drixx doc’s you and Sakura echos Drixx.

Why? Because it’s way more likely Drixx protects you over Nero and Sakura protects Nero?

Do you disagree?

And yes, I believe FA claimed to have picked Phasing.

You seem perfectly fine insulting me but then you post shit like this which makes it clear you have no idea who I am. There doesn't exist a world in which I don't doc someone because I am personally frustrated with them. Period. Full stop.

[Drixx]

How I wish there was a neighborizer ability.

[Drixx]

So I'm trying to figure out why there seems to be so much mechanical confusion:

1.) Game started with a leader who has protection both during the day and the night. -- From this we can conclude that there will be day kill abilities.

2.) Leader cannot die except via very specific criteria which the mod laid out. To be precise: "The presiding Leader cannot die except in LYLO/MYLO or if a no lynch is achieved."

3.) There's no a bomb ability that is usually an "I give myself up to take out this person I think is scummy. Town wins 1v1 trades; scum loses on 1v1 trades" which would

normally

be a gamble on the strength of that person's reads or a townblock decision; HOWEVER, the explicit rule about the only two ways a leader can die prevents them from dying by using the suicide bomb power.

QED - Leaders can dayvig with impunity. Furthermore: tonight is probably the riskiest night we've had. If scum make it into the block tonight and pick up petrify, then we had better clean up really fast.

The only question is whether a doc save prevents the suicide bomb from killing the user. So far as I can tell, nobody has reported getting an answer from the mod on this question.

[Drixx]

sakura takes and uses sui on whoever target

drixx uses doc on nero

nero takes and uses power absortion

nancy takes power echo and either uses BP on herself or uses power echo on one of math/drixx (if she can target drixx with his own power that is)

ausuka (tomorrow's leader) uses phasing and takes BP

toranaga (tomorrow's backup) uses mimickry on someone (no need to be on drixx anymore cause now nero checks drixx) and takes sui

sando or whoever we pick as 6th takes power echo from drixx and redirects to me

that will protect most of the towncore and give us 2 or 3 kills.

it's definitely very safe, maybe too safe, but I don't see anything wrong with it

thoughts?

Rescind your replace out request. Someone has to be the adult right?

[Drixx]

I'm trying to figure out how Math went from lock town to leashed precog.

[Drixx]

Tora you're wrong. FA is the reason FA is not playing. The post was clearly across the line. I don't know why some people on this site think that they and people they like should be above the rules, but they had to make that rule for a reason in the first place. I like FA. That's completely separate from anything else.

[Drixx]

I'm joking but I am pretty upset with that.

Then take it up

WITH THE PERSON WHO THOUGHT IT WAS OKAY TO POST A LITERAL DEATH THREAT AND APPEND "IRL" TO IT TO MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR THEY MEANT IN REAL LIFE

.

[Drixx]

the only reason you two think is not ok is because you can't understand figure of speech. which is fine, we all have our things to overcome, but then if you know that about you and people point at things being figure of speech, just take their word for it.

FA uses "literally" figuratively everytime she uses "literally"

I'm the first person to point out that communication only via text carries only a tiny fraction of intended meaning. I'm relatively sure that nobody in this game actually intends to murder anyone else who is or has been in this game.

I'm also pretty sure there's a site rule that is very clear about where the line is, and it is therefore irrelevant whether or not someone actually was going to go murder someone else. Saying it at all is out of bounds. Period. Full Stop.

The sooner you accept that FA broke the rules and stop blaming someone else for the consequences (whatever they might be; I hope it's just water under the bridge and nothing happens but I have no control of that), the less you're going to be worked up about it.

---

@Math: I think there's obviously scum in the lurkers. Want to be more specific? Also ... Nosferatu. Sanity check me on that? I'm seeing scum who knows the game is already over just shit posting at this point in that slot but ...

[Drixx]

@Drixx will you be on later today?

On and off. Gonna be out this evening and not sure how often I'll be able to check in.

[Drixx]

I already know neither of you are sane. :/

There's no need for any more shit like this man. Just quit with the personal jabs already.

[Drixx]

I already know neither of you are sane. :/

There's no need for any more shit like this man. Just quit with the personal jabs already.

Aren't you the same guys that was "joking" with me but I can't joke?

My first comment to you in this game was in regards to your play. The joke was that because you have 100% of the time scum read me when I was town in games we played together, a scum read from you is like an endorsement. Notice how that has to do with your play? I mean ... you took it personally but it wasn't aimed at YOU.

You asserted that both Mathblade and myself are insane. Notice how that has to do with us as people and nothing at all to do with our play?

Do you realize just how ironic it is that you took an actual obvious joke personally but don't seem to see any problem making actual personal attacks and hiding behind "it was a joke!"?

By the way: you might want to check yourself. Having a go at someone who doesn't understand social cues and has exposed themselves enough that you know it (Math being an aspie), especially about their

sanity

... that's not a good look man.

[Drixx]

I'm not really getting why Math is less trustworthy than Drixx and atleast Math is trying to gamesolve.

I kind of already said I'm going to be lower activity than the folks who play with me regularly expect at least until the next day phase. If you think I'm not reading the thread and not doing other things to work on the game: you're mistaken. I simply don't have a sound case yet. Currently I'm working on Nos as requested. I can make a lazy case but that's not what I generally do.

As I've said from basically since you replaced into the game: if you want to know what I think about something specific, then like bold me and ask. I'll try and take the time. You made a case ages ago against me that amounted to a whole bunch of "It's in the possibility space that Drixx might be scum" without any compelling reason to substantiate anything further.

Also ... I know a lot of people shit on mechanics and taking the time to understand and work the mechanics, but in large themed games there is almost universally a high value in working on squeezing EV out of mechanics.

I'm sorry you don't play the same way I do, but please kindly back off a bit. It's getting a bit old at this point. We play differently. I am very ordered and approach the game from a different place than a lot of people. It's time intensive. I don't know what else to tell you. You can literally any time you want go look at a RR hydra chat to see Cerb and I writing novels talking about games. We both do that on our own individually as well. I have a folder and in that folder are sub folders for game types/sizes and in those folders are txt files with my thoughts and notes from games going back more than a decade and to my home site.

If you would drop your holier than thou crap and try and work with me, you might just actually figure out why you can't read me.

I'm catching up from the post quoted here and will be up for awhile so see you in the future I guess.

[Drixx]

Mathblade Sakura Shiro drixx nancy

These are the people who could have petrify. Toranaga confirmed I used BP that night so I didn't take it, Shiro is dead and Sakura was targeted with Petrify.

That leaves Nancy and Math.

The leader situation requires obvious response to work out.


My gut says that petrify on Sakura could be a HR/HR play.

[Drixx]

Mathblade Sakura Shiro drixx nancy

These are the people who could have petrify. Toranaga confirmed I used BP that night so I didn't take it, Shiro is dead and Sakura was targeted with Petrify.

That leaves Nancy and Math.

The leader situation requires obvious response to work out.


My gut says that petrify on Sakura could be a HR/HR play.

how is this your reaction to day? lol

@sando: yes, I understand that. unless there are 4 wolves, one of me/nancy is scum.

Go read the freaking first few posts. We know exactly how many scum are left. Holy shit stop with the "4 wolves" scaremongering already. I've barely started catching up and you've said it 3 times already.

Oh I don't know. Phone pinged that game started. I looked and nobody had posted. First thoughts and then went to sleep.

Like I already said Nancy and Math, and because of what you reported, it has to be both. That's 2 of 3. Math can't be leader tomorrow. This doesn't seem impossible. Nail scum today and I might even be left alive to heal the petrify.

[Drixx]

At first, I was afraid, I was

petrified

Kept thinking, I could never live without you by my side
But then I spent so many nights thinking, how you did me wrong
And I grew strong and I learned how to get along

Okay.... this gets as many +1s as possible. Coffee and lungs don't mix. Well played.

[Drixx]

Yeah Nancy is confscum here.

6 - 3 right now and we know that Power Negate and Petrify are in play. Presumably a suicide bomb as well. So a no lynch plays out like so:

Night kill: 5 - 3
Power negate + Petrify on me : 4 - 3

Then it just takes a scum who popped BP in the night and pops Suicide the moment the day starts and they have parity.

And that's just one path to loss scenario. There are several others.

---

A helpful thing might be a list of who confirmed having power access and is still alive and what they could possibly have. I'm pretty sure PN and Petrify are with {Math, Nancy} but not 100%, and I'm going to be gone a few hours.

Also the "check in" by Math there followed by Nancy's posts afterward fairly well reeks.

[Drixx]

3v9+1.....feels winnable..... we should be able to like unstone Sakura right

Well unless heal becomes available tomorrow night, I am the only one who can do this. You know that right?

This is a lie. I have the ability to heal.

Actually ... this looks more like a slip. A solid scum plan would be taking me out tonight so I can't heal and scum you would know that.

[Drixx]

Dammit and I was suspicious of Math like 9,000 posts ago too. Argh. (Post #19 in my ISO).

I should have known something was up when Math put together a logical case to clear me. Even when we were in hydra it was a bitch to get math to walk through things logically.

[Drixx]

Why would we no lynch?

I just pointed out why we shouldn't, but it was being suggested by probscum that we no lynch because that would make Math "killable" tonight.

[Drixx]

That moment when even Drixx listens to instinct and realizes that Nancy is just outright openscumming it and hoping to drown out other posts.

[Drixx]

can they factional kill and power in the same night? like last night was high impact but they only have 3 powers a night. I understand Mathb wouldn't openwolf like this without a few more layers tho

So far we have evidence of

2 scum actions:

Petrification and NK. This backs up my theory that Titus’ hidden scum probably has duplication and is holstering it until LYLO. Why else would there not be a 3rd scum action?

Unless they can do both the factional thing and use superpowers at the same time? But that gives even more weight to one scum likely having duplication. Because duplication won’t show up in any investigation until it’s too late.

I'm pretty sure you're missing actions. Petrify was used (obviously). There's also a negation claim.

The problem here is that for Math to be elected leader requires people who were supposed to vote for Nero having failed to do so. If we assume Math is town, then that's 3 votes scum could use to put Math in leadership as a "frame". If Math is scum, then it's two.

Math gave incorrect pre-cog results yesterday which is medium evidence for scum!Math.

So who was supposed to vote for nero? -- Nero: Ausuka, Sakura, Tora, Nancy

Being killed and being petrified won't stop leader vote (Kills resolve last in NAR).

So ... the only way we end up with a Math leader is people in that list are scum. Ausuka is dead so that leaves {Sakura, Tora, Nancy} where at least two must be scum.


There's a probability space where Toranaga is scum with Sakura and Nancy is town ... but I need to take some time to consider that. Nancy's spew today looks bad, but re-reading Toranaga at end of yesterday also looks bad.

Scum "obviously" wouldn't petrify one of their own ever right? /s

I think ALL of us should ask whether being killed or petrified would stop leader vote from counting; that should make it clear how many scum are in the group who was supposed to vote for Nero.

I think it

goes without saying

that we have to treat this like LYLO. If you don't understand why, look at my earlier post where I laid out just one of the many series of events that results in a loss if we don't lynch scum today.

math being leader points to nancy being scum

No, it sure as hell fucking doesn’t!

Actually it might. Really depends heavily on if being killed or petrified happen before leader votes. For Math to be elected literally requires people assigned to vote Nero to be scum. Two if Math is scum and three if Math is town.

If Math is town, then that makes scum {Tora, Sakura, Nancy} I think. If Math is scum, only one of those 3 can be town.

It's probably time for you to start convincing us that Tora and Sakura are scum if you really aren't Nancy. In a world where you're town, they're scum.

ughhh in Tora's memory I feel we should just lynch Theta Nancy and Math and win but ye it works

You want to lynch the one person who can heal Sakura before confiscum.

C’mon tw, I know you’re better then this.

I think Theta is town and we will have at least 1 if not 2 towns dead, if scum has some form of negate. UFO is once again making a bone-headed decision to risk hero suiciding on likely town.

Sakura was smart, that’s why scum petrified her over UFO. She understood that only leader should ever risk bombing. Town is probably doomed.

It has already been pointed out a few times that I can heal petrify. You keep trying to assert only you can do so as a reason not to lynch you. This is concerning.

It's also

deeply

concerning that you are expressing a town read on Toranaga when it's logically impossible for you both to be town.

---

Just to be clear: my fundamental assumptions are as follows:

1.) In order for Math to be elected, then either 2 (Math is scum) or 3 (Math is town) scum have to be in the pool of people who were supposed to vote Nero. Otherwise Nero would be leader.

2.) Petrify doesn't stop leader vote from counting


If those are true, then we basically have the game solved and it comes down to getting to as much certainty as possible about Math's alignment. If we believe Math is town, then we have the scum team nailed because Nero isn't leader. If we believe Math is scum, then the other two scum are in {Toranaga, Nancy, Sakura}

Nancy's "narrative" that only she can undo the petrify is weak evidence for Nancy and Sakura being scum together with Petrify being used as a gambit.


@Nero - Weigh in bud. I think all the pieces are here. Just need to assemble the puzzle properly.

[Drixx]

If Gamma Emerald voted for Nero, then the only possible conclusions are:

1.) {Sakura, Tora, Nancy} are the remaining scum and they were able to make Math leader by outvoting {Ausuka, Gamma} as Math would not have won a tie.

2.) Scum have a factional ability to force their choice of leader.

That is pretty much the entire possibility space.


As far as finding out if today is MYLO ... the only realistic way to do that is to try and lynch Math ... but with GE having claimed to vote Nero, it seems impossible for Math to be scum here. We know there's 3 scum left. You can't vote for yourself. Math needed 3 votes to become leader. That's pretty much a clear.


So what explanation best fits what we see?

It seems unreasonable for scum to get even a 1-shot leader override because the whole point of the leader slot is the person has to be townread by a plurality. That subverts the mechanic. It's inelegant (but not, of course, impossible).


If we discard a scum factional ability to install leader of choice, then we're left with {Tora, Sakura, Nancy} -- Using Petrify on one of your own team is a pretty ballsy gambit but it could absolutely be what we're seeing and if it is, it might even work. Nancy is clawing tooth and nail to be left alive to heal Sakura (which obviously scum if they use petrify on one of their own they're going to want to undo it once the person has the desired "Town" tag attached to them for being petrified). And then we have both Tora and Nancy spewing and going after one another, which is classic scum theatre.

So umm ... {Tora, Sakura, Nancy} is the answer I think.

[Drixx]

ughhh in Tora's memory I feel we should just lynch Theta Nancy and Math and win but ye it works

If Tora his scum!Theta here I don't see how we possibly lose. It confirms Nancy+Math as scum.

I think we want Tora to bomb Theta either way today, but I'd like to work out the mylo bit first.

No, it fucking doesn’t. Please explain why I begged the person who was NK - whom I fucking used HT on - to use bp that night? Oh and yeah, let’s just allow the 2 hidden scum to kill every night with 0 accountability. If town is seriously this brain dead, then scum deserves to win this. What’s really depressing. is we don’t have to let this happen but no one wants to listen to me, so we’re clearly fucked. Good work, guys. \o/

Except obviously Nero, who seems to be seeing things clearly. At least if I get stupidly mislynched, hopefully he might be able to hopefully turn things around?

I know that UFO and Sando seem to be content to allow the 2 hidden scum to coast. lol

why are you talking shit about me? you got powers every day and you caught 0 scum. stop blaming other people for your losses.

You are advocating for my mislynch, for I don’t even understand for what possible reasons. So, yeah, I think I’ve fucking earned that right now, don’t you think?

no you don't. who is scum, then? give us solutions.

Yes I have totally fucking have!

Other then obviously Math? I don’t know. I really thought Nos was scum but then why wouldn’t he have killed me? I am a bit suspicious of the worst, who should be able to read me correctly, for parking that vote on me. I dunno, I obviously was wrong about leashing Math. However, what I am feeling extremely confident about is that we have 2 hidden scum left in this game. I 100% believe that both Titus and Math lied about giving Ank/Stun powers. We figure out who they are, we win.

If Gamma Emerald is telling the truth about voting for Nero, Math literally cannot be scum here unless scum were given a factional ability to force leader choice.

Given that the premise of this game was that we all started as "aspiring" and had no powers, then it follows that scum

should

only have a factional kill power and otherwise needed to be townread and included in the teams to get other powers.

It's possible there are other factional abilities. I don't see it as very plausible though. It would require either a very poor game design choice or a hidden mechanic which allows scum to pick up non public abilities. Those things just seem like a big reach when we already have a logical answer to what we see.

[Drixx]

you don't understand how math being leader incriminates you? that's rather incredible.

No, I protected him because that was Sakura’s plan. I would have rather echoed Drixx, instead.

P.edit. What part of my voting no lynch to not giving him and his scumpals protection and bombing and redirecting powers are you also not getting?

I voted Ausuka last night

, because I thought she was taking bomb and as leader would be safe.

What are Math’s powers again? How was scum able to kill someone with SS phasing and petrify the reigning leader?

Thanks for the scum claim. A town you would have said the very first thing the day started with unexpected leader that you didn't stick to the plan. I refuse to believe you thought Ausuka would be protected last night by leader status.

[Drixx]

sheep me Drixx

I don't need to. We both got to the same conclusion by different routes. The fact that there exists two different reasonable ways to end at "Tora scum" is pretty damning.

And Nancy literally just scum claimed.

[Drixx]

nancy didn't scumclaim at all, you're just confused.

I'm confused? Nancy didn't vote for Nero as she was supposed to. The moment Nancy saw that Math was leader, a town!Nancy would have immediately said that she deviated from the plan. Instead she waits until she gets POEd by the fact that Math is leader to claim she voted somewhere else?

How is that NOT a scum claim again?


And let's take a moment and assume that Nancy DID vote Ausuka. That still leaves {Gamma, Tora, Sakura, Ausuka} as people who were planned to vote or have claimed to vote for Nero.

So we're still in a position there where there has to be 2-3 scum in that pool, or else Math wouldn't be leader.

[Drixx]

If Math needed 3 votes to beat me doesn't this point to not Math scum? Otherwise, we are assuming that a rouge town voted Math.

Pretty sure once everyone has checked in we're going to have nobody claiming to have voted for Math.

[Drixx]

1.) {Sakura, Tora, Nancy} are the remaining scum and they were able to make Math leader by outvoting {Ausuka, Gamma} as Math would not have won a tie.

Yah, that sounds stupid.

Four people were assigned to vote for Nero: {Ausuka, Sakura, Nancy, Tora}
A fifth person claims to have voted for Nero: {Gamma}

It's irrelevant who voted for Ausuka. The only way Math ends up as leader is for scum to vote Math. There's only 3 scum left. Even if we take Nancy out of the equation and assume she is honest and actually intentionally screwed with the plan and voted elsewhere AND we believe she thought Ausuka would have leader protection last night AND we assume she wouldn't have said so long before she did ...

We still have the following voting for Nero: {Ausuka, Sakura, Gamma, Tora}

Scum can't get Math elected that way.

So let's assume that dying removes your vote. That leaves {Sakura, Gamma Tora}.

Math doesn't win a 3v3 tie against Nero because of the tie rules.

So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote. That leaves {Gamma, Tora}.

Math still can't be scum because Math needs

THREE

votes to get elected due to losing ties against Nero.

---

So the only ways we end up with Math as leader are:

1.) 2-3 people in the pool who were supposed to and claimed to vote for Nero are scum: {

Ausuka

, Sakura, Gamma, Tora, Nancy} are that pool.

2.) Scum has a factional ability to put whomever they want in as leader.


This doesn't 100% clear Math, but it's going to be really freaking hard to make the numbers work and have Math be scum at this point.

[Drixx]

Ok it's actually Town = Scum+2 for Mylo.

We won't actually see a MYLO day if we lose. With Petrify being effectively a 2nd kill, the numbers never get us there with 3 scum alive.

9v3
8v3
6v3
5v3
3v3

That's how it progresses if we mislynch twice and see kill+petrify twice.

That assumes no doc echo onto scum who can bomb for a sudden parity win.

We're kind of a lot closer to losing than some of you realize. I.E. me suggesting we treat today as if it were LYLO.

[Drixx]

If Math needed 3 votes to beat me doesn't this point to not Math scum? Otherwise, we are assuming that a rouge town voted Math.

he is obvscum

the theory is that since math can't self vote, the numbers don't add up unless wolves pack voted town math, you see? that's why drixx is saying it. I thought that was why you were saying it too but I see you haven't got there yet...

So, let me process even more insanity.

Drixx honestly believes Math is town, despite obviously lying about his precog list. Okay. Someone, please shoot me now. My brain cells are committing hari kari at an alarming rate, the more I read this thred. Like, if Math seriously isn’t scum here, I have no business ever playing Mafia agin. But, there’s just no freaking way, he isn’t. Why does town!Math ever lie about this and as Nero correctly pointed out, if he didn’t know the list, then how does he get 3 out of 6 right?

Could Drixx seriously be townreading Math after all of that?

Outside of mod error or a scum factional ability to force a leader choice the numbers don't lie.

While you're actually paying attention: can you explain why you deviated from the plan?

[Drixx]

but I'm town reading Math too based on mechanics. Math needs 3 votes and assuming he can't vote himself there was only two scum that could vote him or he's not scum and all 3 scum voted him. Right?

Since you were off the mislynch, Math could only be leader over you by getting more votes. Even if you had been on the mislynch you would still win ties because Math was leader previously.

My only other thought is that scum have a factional ability of

Mind Control: Target another player. You may move their vote once before the end of the next Day Phase. You may change its position by PM'ing the Mod (me).

that works on the leader votes, idk.

I really think that scum only has a kill as a factional ability. It otherwise breaks the entire point of the setup. Earn a plurality of votes to gain powers for you and whomever you choose.

[Drixx]

but I'm town reading Math too based on mechanics. Math needs 3 votes and assuming he can't vote himself there was only two scum that could vote him or he's not scum and all 3 scum voted him. Right?

Since you were off the mislynch, Math could only be leader over you by getting more votes. Even if you had been on the mislynch you would still win ties because Math was leader previously.

My only other thought is that scum have a factional ability of

Mind Control: Target another player. You may move their vote once before the end of the next Day Phase. You may change its position by PM'ing the Mod (me).

that works on the leader votes, idk.

I really think that scum only has a kill as a factional ability. It otherwise breaks the entire point of the setup. Earn a plurality of votes to gain powers for you and whomever you choose.

I don’t really think that is the case Drixx.

Mainly because it forces town imho to play antiwin con to do anything. Plus if they don’t give powers to the townread then it is a scum claim. With all the good powers and circle jerk potential scum have to have something.

Except no they don't because we saw power negate and petrify go off last night and we were operating under the assumption that only one possible scum had snuck in under Titus the night Ank died, but what we observe tells us differently.

And of course the fact that you are leader means that at least two people were in the very trusted group tasked with ensuring Nero was the leader if Ausuka got killed during the night.

The entire way the game has played out demonstrates that the setup rewards scum for fooling town. (Which is the actual basic point of mafia; consider mountainous for example. This is a themed powered setup which effectively mimics the basic game really well in terms of what it rewards and punishes).

[Drixx]

unpetrify sakura, nancy

If Math is the one who petrified Sakura and all signs point to that, then you know I am powerless to heal tomorrow. Do you really think scum!Math doesn’t petrify again tonight?

I am the only one who can reverse this? What if scum has an echo? Then, there will be 1 NK and 2 petrifies. Don’t you honestly think it better that I wait until we can safely lynch him?

I will obviously do what town wishes but I honestly don’t think it’s the best plan for town, to have their healer powerless to reverse any possible petrifications the following night. We can’t kill Math now, which we could have had you waited until either no lynch, night or the following day to use your bomb.

So, if the majority actually think my healing Sakura now and being powerless tomorrow is best, I’ll of course do it but I won’t be able to reverse any more possible petrifications until D7, at the earliest.

It's irrelevant when you do it. You're making a specious argument here. You're literally arguing "Scum could petrify TWO MORE tonight AND KILL SOMEONE, so you guys should let me leave someone petrified until AFTER all that happens".

Time to put up.

So let's assume that dying removes your vote.
So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote.

They don't.

And from a later quote neither does death. So we now have FOUR votes for Nero, with Nancy supposed to vote there and playing dumb and pretending she didn't know she was supposed to vote nero. That gives us a pool of: {

Ausuka

, Tora, Gamma, Nancy, Sakura}

Literally the entire scum team has to be in that pool or else Math couldn't be elected leader.

Ausuka plus any two others in that list and there's only two left who could have voted for Math. Vote would be Nero 3 and Math 2.
Ausuka plus one other and then it's Math 3, Nero 2.

This heavily implies that Math is town.

p sure you were supposed to vote me. @Nancy

She was. I don't buy the act that she didn't know that. I doubt you do either. It took her WAY too long to claim she voted elsewhere. Pages after I had already put her in the pool of voting Math repeatedly.

Math doesn't win a 3v3 tie against Nero because of the tie rules.

So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote. That leaves {Gamma, Tora}.

Math still can't be scum because Math needs THREE votes to get elected due to losing ties against Nero.

Petrify does not stop the vote, I just confirmed with mod.

So we have 3 "claimed" votes for Nero in Gamma, Tora and

Sakura

(we just kinda have to assume town aren't stupid and will follow the plan at this point).

Scum voting for town can't even beat that, so there absolutely MUST be a liar in those 3.

See above. Sanity check the logic please.

So let's assume that dying removes your vote.
So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote.

They don't.

@Drixx, Petrify isn’t a day action.

I never said it was.

Nancy would be locked up to the heal Sakura gambit and iirc Petrify says target another player.

All I know is someone has petrify and it was only available Days 3 and 5.

It’s not me obviously, so someone other then me picked it on D 5. You are the only one to have actually claimed it.

I took HT on D3 and Echo last night.

How do we know that you took HT on D3 and echo last night? You so far haven't healed Sakura and we literally can't know whether you took echo.

[Drixx]

I voted Ausaka last night, not Nero. Wasn’t I supposed to do that?

because she was supposed to dayvig safely and Nero was supposed to be the backup?

Nope, you were supposed to vote Nero, it was pretty clear.

Can you please stop being an ass while we're at it, you're either scum or don't understand the gamestate, either way you shouldn't be being an ass towards people.

No, I’m very sure it was Ausuka, which I did.

Stop fucking insulting me or don’t fucking talk to me!

I don’t have to listen to this. I did what I thought I was supposed to and more to help town in this game. I totally don’t fucking deserve any of this crap.

The vote assignments were repeated a bunch of times. You literally have no excuse. If you are town (which I seriously doubt), then you didn't pay attention at all and you have severely hurt town.

I mean ... I assume this is just scum theatre but if you flip green then you need to pay attention post game because I'm pretty sure the whole town is going to have some critique for you. You don't get to freelance and do your own thing and then lash out at other people like it's their fault.

But again ... I'm PRETTY SURE you're just scum here so ... nice ATE.

[Drixx]

But why does town!Math lie about precog? How does that make any sense?

but why does he lie about it? I asked before but hasn't he been doing precog lists b4 and weren't they all correct?

Can you please stop being an ass while we're at it, you're either scum or don't understand the gamestate, either way you shouldn't be being an ass towards people.

She's not? Now Tor....

I know. Has Math explained that yet?

Anyway, Thanks for that. <3 I don’t see why people feel it’s okay to be so nasty. First UFO calls me an “airhead” and now Sando is attacking me, for I don’t even know God what. I haven’t done anything wrong. I don’t even know who I can trust anymore in this game other then you, because I believe Sakura. The only other people I was confident are town are either petrified or dead,

and if I knew I wouldn’t be powerless to heal anymore petrifications tomorrow, I would heal her right now.

The bold and underline part is just fucking atrocious. You can heal once today/tonight (using it now counts against your night action upcoming). If that means you cannot use another action until tomorrow night, then you only get one heal either way.

So please explain why you want to leave someone you believe is town in a position where they can't talk and don't count for parity. It's

IRRELEVANT

what happens tonight. That won't change when and how often you can heal.

Failure to explain reasoning will be viewed as a scum claim. I'm done with you pretending to be clueless when it suits you and then showing a sharp mind at other times.

[Drixx]

Math doesn't win a 3v3 tie against Nero because of the tie rules.

So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote. That leaves {Gamma, Tora}.

Math still can't be scum because Math needs THREE votes to get elected due to losing ties against Nero.

Petrify does not stop the vote, I just confirmed with mod.

So we have 3 "claimed" votes for Nero in Gamma, Tora and

Sakura

(we just kinda have to assume town aren't stupid and will follow the plan at this point).

Scum voting for town can't even beat that, so there absolutely MUST be a liar in those 3.

Why is Sakura even in that list? It makes 0 sense for scum to have petrified her unless she’s town.

Because that list contains all the people who were supposed to vote for Nero. Also you have certainly heart of a gambit before, yes?

[Drixx]

So the smart play here imho is lynch Tor and then evaluate Nancy based on the actions given.

If she is scum and refuses to use HT on Sakura then we do not eliminate the person with Petrify because scum planned this out. Surely scum would account for Nancy having to use HT.
If she is scum and does actually do it and there is no petrify then Nancy is still outed.

Mainly if Nancy is scum she has to keep the person doing the petrifies alive and per your theory the only person that can be is Tor.

So rather than arguing with scum and trying to put a leash around them just make them accept the consequences.

You're literally arguing for the same thing I am. Nancy needs to heal Sakura. Like right now.

[Drixx]

scum used power echo on a power negate ofc

so both me and ausuka were negated and then ausuka died

Oh look ... Tora is claiming to have been negated here. For whomever asked.

[Drixx]

Ok I just annoyed the crap out of the mod I'm pretty sure with a barrage of questions but yes, both Aus and Sakura could have voted last night for Nero and that vote would have counted, totes totes confirmed.

So 4 "claimed" votes for Nero, I think we have to assume Aus/Sak didn't gamethrow:
Gamma
Tor
Sak
Aus

These are A's.

2 scum + 1A on townMath results in Nero-leader
1 scum + 2A on townMath results in Math-leader
2A on scumMath results in Nero-leader

As far as I can tell, there's no way for us not to have 2-3 scum in the A's and a town-Math. The only way would be some scum-mechanic to change the leadervote around, which would seem bastardy.

Thank you for confirming what I said hours ago. Did the way I said it not make sense to you?

[Drixx]

unpetrify sakura, nancy

If Math is the one who petrified Sakura and all signs point to that, then you know I am powerless to heal tomorrow. Do you really think scum!Math doesn’t petrify again tonight?

I am the only one who can reverse this? What if scum has an echo? Then, there will be 1 NK and 2 petrifies. Don’t you honestly think it better that I wait until we can safely lynch him?

I will obviously do what town wishes but I honestly don’t think it’s the best plan for town, to have their healer powerless to reverse any possible petrifications the following night. We can’t kill Math now, which we could have had you waited until either no lynch, night or the following day to use your bomb.

So, if the majority actually think my healing Sakura now and being powerless tomorrow is best, I’ll of course do it but I won’t be able to reverse any more possible petrifications until D7, at the earliest.

It's irrelevant when you do it. You're making a specious argument here. You're literally arguing "Scum could petrify TWO MORE tonight AND KILL SOMEONE, so you guys should let me leave someone petrified until AFTER all that happens".

Time to put up.

So let's assume that dying removes your vote.
So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote.

They don't.

And from a later quote neither does death. So we now have FOUR votes for Nero, with Nancy supposed to vote there and playing dumb and pretending she didn't know she was supposed to vote nero. That gives us a pool of: {

Ausuka

, Tora, Gamma, Nancy, Sakura}

Literally the entire scum team has to be in that pool or else Math couldn't be elected leader.

Ausuka plus any two others in that list and there's only two left who could have voted for Math. Vote would be Nero 3 and Math 2.
Ausuka plus one other and then it's Math 3, Nero 2.

This heavily implies that Math is town.

p sure you were supposed to vote me. @Nancy

She was. I don't buy the act that she didn't know that. I doubt you do either. It took her WAY too long to claim she voted elsewhere. Pages after I had already put her in the pool of voting Math repeatedly.

Math doesn't win a 3v3 tie against Nero because of the tie rules.

So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote. That leaves {Gamma, Tora}.

Math still can't be scum because Math needs THREE votes to get elected due to losing ties against Nero.

Petrify does not stop the vote, I just confirmed with mod.

So we have 3 "claimed" votes for Nero in Gamma, Tora and

Sakura

(we just kinda have to assume town aren't stupid and will follow the plan at this point).

Scum voting for town can't even beat that, so there absolutely MUST be a liar in those 3.

See above. Sanity check the logic please.

So let's assume that dying removes your vote.
So let's assume that Petrify removes your vote.

They don't.

@Drixx, Petrify isn’t a day action.

I never said it was.

Nancy would be locked up to the heal Sakura gambit and iirc Petrify says target another player.

All I know is someone has petrify and it was only available Days 3 and 5.

It’s not me obviously, so someone other then me picked it on D 5. You are the only one to have actually claimed it.

I took HT on D3 and Echo last night.

How do we know that you took HT on D3 and echo last night? You so far haven't healed Sakura and we literally can't know whether you took echo.

I can prove either one but not in the same cycle, as long as scum doesn’t negate or redirect me.

I said I’m willing to heal Sakura but I’m far more worried about not being able to heal any possible petrifications the following night

, which if echo is available, we could have 2, since we don’t know if scum has that or freezing or something else. So far all we have confirmation of is Petrification. No evidence of either some form of vanillaizer or echo yet but scum likely probably has at least one of those powers.

But what does it matter? If you can only heal ONE person today/tonight/tomorrow then it's irrelevant if they petrify 2 tonight. It doesn't change how many times you can heal. You should therefore heal Sakura now so we know for sure what Sakura did during the night.

[Drixx]

I voted Ausaka last night, not Nero. Wasn’t I supposed to do that?

because she was supposed to dayvig safely and Nero was supposed to be the backup?

Nope, you were supposed to vote Nero, it was pretty clear.

Can you please stop being an ass while we're at it, you're either scum or don't understand the gamestate, either way you shouldn't be being an ass towards people.

No, I’m very sure it was Ausuka, which I did.

Stop fucking insulting me or don’t fucking talk to me!

I don’t have to listen to this. I did what I thought I was supposed to and more to help town in this game. I totally don’t fucking deserve any of this crap.

The vote assignments were repeated a bunch of times. You literally have no excuse. If you are town (which I seriously doubt), then you didn't pay attention at all and you have severely hurt town.

I mean ... I assume this is just scum theatre but if you flip green then you need to pay attention post game because I'm pretty sure the whole town is going to have some critique for you. You don't get to freelance and do your own thing and then lash out at other people like it's their fault.

But again ... I'm PRETTY SURE you're just scum here so ... nice ATE.

Drixx if Nancy is scum what you are doing is not helping.

Furthermore Nancy if scum with Sakura has to use HT to save her lose lose
Nancy if scum without Sakura has to use HT to save her
Nancy if town and Sakura is town win win
Nancy if town and Sakura is scum lose lose

Mainly we only have issues if Sakura is scum and if Nancy is scum with Sakura scum are down a PR.

So I am thinking Tor needs to be the lynch in that case because Tor would have to be the one to petrify Sakura.

Sakura can’t be scum. God people use your freaking brains. Why the fuck does scum petrify arguably the most widely read townie, if she’s scum? In what world does this even make an iota of sense?

Because of the argument you are making right now. Literally the entire game has pointed out that there could be a well hidden scum. Take someone who is super widely read as town and then put a negative effect on them and what's the net result? They go from widely read as town to nearly conftown, because "scum wouldn't do that"!

Except ... it doesn't hurt scum at all. They have 3 alive. You (regardless of your alignment) are going to end up healing Sakura. No lasting damage but a huge boost in town cred.

[Drixx]

So Toranaga just blew up someone outside of the PoE. I guess that's our lynch today.

[Drixx]

you're all horrible

except for whoever is scum other than mathblade

I didn't see you even engaging with the logic that clears Math. I'll wait.

[Drixx]

Oh wait ... no sense in waiting. You can't engage with it because you can't counter it.

[Drixx]

you're all horrible

except for whoever is scum other than mathblade

I didn't see you even engaging with the logic that clears Math. I'll wait.

While we wait, plan is:

We get Nancy to heal Sakura right now. Refusal = doesn't have heal. That makes Nancy basically guaranteed petrify.

How'd the doc get onto Tor btw?

It was already claimed earlier. Someone echoed me onto him.

[Drixx]

you're all horrible

except for whoever is scum other than mathblade

I didn't see you even engaging with the logic that clears Math. I'll wait.

math is scum

I'm not gonna drag myself to argue against a logic that says every scum was in the pool that was supposed to vote nero, and then voted math instead and outed themselves

you're awful and I don't care about arguing against horrible logic. math is obviously always scum, of course, but you idiots are clearing him for absolutely appalling reasoning.

anyway ok, bye

If the people who were supposed to vote for Nero voted for Nero, there aren't enough scum to make Math scum. If math is scum, then scum have only two votes to work with.

Votes for Nero: {Ausuka, Sakura, Gamma, YOU}

If Math is scum, only two of those could have voted Math ... and Math would LOSE a 2-2 tie with Nero, per the leader voting rules.

The only way Math can get elected leader is with 3 votes. The only way that 3 votes can beat Nero is if at least 2 came from that set of four.

If you have even a basic couple hours of lecture time with logic, you should be able to interact with this. Point out the flaw.

You called the logic "horrible".

So ... where's the problem? Primary premise? Subordinate premise? Conclusion? Is the logic invalid or is it valid but not sound?

If you CAN'T answer those questions, you have no business calling anyone else "idiots".

[Drixx]

@Drixx help me do a KPN? I need to plot some shit out.

I already pointed it out earlier. Worst case (given what we know) is a kill plus echoed petrify.

We're now at 11 which makes it 8v3

If we mislynch it's 7v3

A kill plus 2 petrifies would put us into LYLO and we would have to nail the scum with petrify.

[Drixx]

it's horrible because you're suggesting that all scum voted for a town leader and outed themselves doing so drixx

you're absolutely appalling. the part of your brain that was supposed to go "hey wait a minute, that doesn't really make sense now does it?" doesn't function

scum would never pile onto a town vote and out themselves

The very fact that you are refusing to acknowledge the plain facts of the numbers because you don't believe scum would do something is why you don't belong namecalling anyone.

Interact with the logic. My first instinct when the day started was that Math was scum. At this point, the only way math can be scum is if:

1.) Town players literally game threw (would have to be you refusing to admit you didn't vote nero and/or some combination of Ausuka and Sakura going off plan).

2.) Scum have some hidden ability which allowed them to override the leader vote in some fashion.


You refuse to respond to the logic, so I'm going to assume you can find no problems with it. That means you are choosing to believe something we have no evidence for to justify a read you have flip/flopped on for quite awhile. That's irrational.

[Drixx]

@Drixx help me do a KPN? I need to plot some shit out.

I already pointed it out earlier. Worst case (given what we know) is a kill plus echoed petrify.

We're now at 11 which makes it 8v3

If we mislynch it's 7v3

A kill plus 2 petrifies would put us into LYLO and we would have to nail the scum with petrify.

You didn’t do one if Sakura is scum?
What is it like if Sakura is scum and Nancy doesn’t heal and I petrify or kill her instead?

I am thinking lynch Tor I petrify Nancy here and she doesn’t heal so we just win?

Assuming it is Tor/Nancy/Sakura. If not then it is just Gamma yeah?

I am kinda not wanting Nancy to heal I think?

I mean ... yeah. It's Gamma's claim that handed us the PoE tools.

[Drixx]

@Tora - Math got a new power we hadn't seen right. How on earth do you explain that? We have evidence that Math knew some of today's powers correctly ahead of time.

The most likely explanation, honestly, is mod error. If B.S. made an error, the correct mod action is to say nothing and let it play out. Saying anything (even if just privately to Math) only furthers the damage to the game.

What makes you think I didn't think about that or was ignoring it?

[Drixx]

@Tora - Math got a new power we hadn't seen right. How on earth do you explain that? We have evidence that Math knew some of today's powers correctly ahead of time.

The most likely explanation, honestly, is mod error. If B.S. made an error, the correct mod action is to say nothing and let it play out. Saying anything (even if just privately to Math) only furthers the damage to the game.

What makes you think I didn't think about that or was ignoring it?

[Drixx]

@Tora - Math got a new power we hadn't seen right. How on earth do you explain that? We have evidence that Math knew some of today's powers correctly ahead of time.

The most likely explanation, honestly, is mod error. If B.S. made an error, the correct mod action is to say nothing and let it play out. Saying anything (even if just privately to Math) only furthers the damage to the game.

What makes you think I didn't think about that or was ignoring it?

mod error my fucking ass

Explain how Math just magically got the brand new power we hadn't seen before AND in the right spot on the list. I'll wait.

[Drixx]

Tor is the wrong lynch today because he just used up his power for today/tonight. He's tomorrow's lynch if no new info clears him.

[Drixx]

@Tora - Math got a new power we hadn't seen right. How on earth do you explain that? We have evidence that Math knew some of today's powers correctly ahead of time.

The most likely explanation, honestly, is mod error. If B.S. made an error, the correct mod action is to say nothing and let it play out. Saying anything (even if just privately to Math) only furthers the damage to the game.

What makes you think I didn't think about that or was ignoring it?

mod error my fucking ass

Explain how Math just magically got the brand new power we hadn't seen before AND in the right spot on the list. I'll wait.

he used precog, then he removed all the important shit we could have today so we wouldn't be concerned with leader voting, we'd keep only 4 people there, and scum could do what scum did that made him leader

THINK MCFLY

So you think scum wouldn't accidentally put themselves into a hard PoE (only because Gamma went against plan and said so), but scum would intentionally out themselves?

You're certainly putting on a clinic here. Is this "new" logic?

[Drixx]

alternatively, scum can have a saying in what goes or doesn't go as abilities the next day

if there was mod error, there would be a mod announcement. you can't assume mod error to clear math for this.

Umm... you're mistaken. B.S. is a very good mod. If he made an error with the list, he would know that the correct move is to say nothing and limit the damage. A mod announcement that an error was made basically clears Math. Uncertainty vs. making a player IC. It's obvious which is the correct choice for a mod.

What I KNOW is that Math nailed a new power in the right spot. I also know that Math ended up leader in a situation where that's not possible without 3 votes for Math. I know there's 3 scum left. Therefore Math cannot be scum.

That leaves me having to assume either a mod error or a scum ability are the most likely explanations for Math having a partially correct list.

[Drixx]

alternatively, scum can have a saying in what goes or doesn't go as abilities the next day

if there was mod error, there would be a mod announcement. you can't assume mod error to clear math for this.

Umm... you're mistaken. B.S. is a very good mod. If he made an error with the list, he would know that the correct move is to say nothing and limit the damage. A mod announcement that an error was made basically clears Math. Uncertainty vs. making a player IC. It's obvious which is the correct choice for a mod.

What I KNOW is that Math nailed a new power in the right spot. I also know that Math ended up leader in a situation where that's not possible without 3 votes for Math. I know there's 3 scum left. Therefore Math cannot be scum.

That leaves me having to assume either a mod error or a scum ability are the most likely explanations for Math having a partially correct list.

IF HE IS A GOOD MOD HE IS NOT MESSING UP 3 OF NEXT DAY ABILITIES, DRIXX

Actually lists of abilities is one of the places I would expect even the best mod to make a mistake. I've seen the best mods I've ever seen make mistakes in games less complex than this one.

There's a whole list of possible explanations. If I was just looking at one thing I would be where I was when the day started and assuming Math is scum.

Unlike you ... I'm doing my very best to take into account the totality of ALL of the information we have.

And there's too many missing pieces to be absolutely certain so now we're dealing with multiple interacting sets of probabilities.

Instead of spewing at me, you should interact with the stuff I'm posting and ask questions or point out flaws. That's much more useful to everyone.

Notice how I'm posting non stop this afternoon/evening? You're just now getting a little view of something OTHER than the tip of the iceberg. I tried to tell you earlier in the game that I didn't have enough info to dump thoughts into the thread.

Well ... now I do. You can keep spewing ugliness or you can calm the hell down and try and point out somewhere that I made a logical mistake. Obviously I'm hoping for the latter.

[Drixx]

This literally lets scum Tor+Nancy use an extra power...WHY MATH WHY?!

b/c Math is REALLY bad

Nah. Math is correct. Being petrified stops submission of actions. Petrify Nancy and lynch Tor is a viable way to go. That also probably leaves us in solid position if Gamma is scum who stepped in and claimed to have voted Nero in order to implicate others in the vote list {Sakura, Nancy, Tor}

[Drixx]

This literally lets scum Tor+Nancy use an extra power...WHY MATH WHY?!

b/c Math is REALLY bad

Nah. Math is correct. Being petrified stops submission of actions. Petrify Nancy and lynch Tor is a viable way to go. That also probably leaves us in solid position if Gamma is scum who stepped in and claimed to have voted Nero in order to implicate others in the vote list {Sakura, Nancy, Tor}

Killing doesn't stop killing under NAR. Why would petrify stop petrify?

Nancy heals Sakura so can't act tonight. The petrify hits before Nancy could use another action.

[Drixx]

I would have liked to talk to Sakura.

P-Edit: So you're just giving up then Tora?