Open 731: Twin Trap (Game Over)

[Egg]

You’re all wrong, burgers are obviously the best because they can have both eggs or cheese on them!
VOTE: GameNBurger

Also, I have never played with anyone in this game before except BuJaber, so this should be interesting. (I swear my meta has improved, BuJaber.)

I've played with you before.

Vote Inferno

[Egg]

Ok, vote stays.

[Egg]

Because I find it’s a good way to get out of RVS. Helps me judge interactions and gather info. It hasn’t failed me yet, and I doubt it will start now.
Egg is scum now btw.
VOTE: Egg

Negative. No good reason to speculate on who is or isn't a power role.

[Egg]

Because I find it’s a good way to get out of RVS. Helps me judge interactions and gather info. It hasn’t failed me yet, and I doubt it will start now.
Egg is scum now btw.
VOTE: Egg

I was reffering to you making guesses on roles. Thats almost always proscum behavior, I'm not gonna push you for it tho.

Do you not have any scum reads yet? If not, why no vote on Inferno?

[Egg]

Almost50, Game isn't the type to be silent scum. I've been scum with him before and he was pretty active. If I remember correctly, he did draw some suspicion but I couldn't figure out why. The game also just started, so anyone being silent probably doesn't mean much.

Inferno, I took your statement to mean BuJaber is likely VT. Meaning not scum or a power role. I don't see how it could mean anything else. I voted you because I don't like the idea of discussing who is or isn't a power role. Or left my vote on you, I should say. Technically it was already there.

Game's post 57 feels like IIoA to me at first. Mentions mine and inferno's votes on each other, but I don't see an opinion on it. Mentions manatee's vote on inferno but no opinion. I see he mentioned manatee in the next post though so I can live with that. .

I agree with Inferno on something: Eragon is probably my strongest town read.

[Egg]

@Egg: Well, then you understood exactly what I was trying to get across. And I understand that train of thought. The point of saying that BuJaber is VT tho is that having BuJ as conftown (imo ofc, people might not agree with me on this) this early is GREAT for town.

That would be true if he was actually confirmed. Especially as a VT because scum might have to kill him instead of a potential power role. Or... scum avoid killing him because they want to hit a power role and the pool has been narrowed. *shrug*. There are a few ways to look at it. And I admit not all are bad.

Unvote

Eggs read on post 57 is correct

As he may remember from our game that’s genrally how I catch up is taking a bite summary and then stating opinions at the end of the catch-up, which is what post 58 island

I've never actually seen your town game before though.

________________

Vote Manatee

I don't like how my question was enough for him to place a vote on Inferno. The hesitance reads like wondering if it's ok to vote or not and then doing so right after my question feels like he had approval to do so. Too worried about how he's being perceived.

[Egg]

I think BuJaber is town, but it's not because he reminded the Mod something was missing in the OP.

[Egg]

I think BuJaber is town, but it's not because he reminded the Mod something was missing in the OP.

Why don't you tell us why you think BuJaber is town? Is it because he doesn't want to get townread for asking about the setup?

Basically. It's the way he's handled inferno in general. Just all out attacking the idea. Going after the guy who is calling him confirmed town. It looks like town who sees bad logic and is calling it out. That said, he's voting manatee over inferno so it's not like he's doing anything that would remove inferno from the game, making it a relatively safe town cred play for scum. That's why he's not my strongest town read. It's enough that I don't want to Lynch him today though. You voted Eragon for fluff posting. What do you think of his content posts? Why does the fluff outweigh those?

[Egg]

Egg have you played with inferno before?

Yes.

__________

Fromage, why does eragons fluff outweigh his content?

_________

Inferno how is that a scum slip?

[Egg]

I fell behind. Will try to catch up tonight or tomorrow. If it doesn't happen, best bet is Sunday night.

[Egg]

V/LA until Sunday night

[Egg]

Someone sell me on the case of manatee being a safer bet than inferno for lynch

Define safer in this context. We should be lynching who we think is scum. In my opinion, that's manatee. I've already said why. What were you hoping to get out of that?

Careful. I didn't say Eragon's fluff outweighs his content. I said I don't like his fluff. I'm not even sure if I scumread him.

Hmm. Ok. Why the vote then?

I like the idea behind the post, "It looks like town, who sees bad logic and calls it out, but could be towncred grab."
seems a little bit fencesitty but in a situation like that not much you can do.

Nah, not fencesitty. I town read him. I just accept that I don't get perfect reads in games so there is a world where I'm wrong.

___________________

Can't finish at the moment. Sorry

[Egg]

Because I wanted you to stop fluffposting and I didn't scumread anyone else either.

Ok, that answers that question from my last post. *shrug*. Not really sure why a little fluff is a problem when there's content too, but minor issue at most as far as I'm concerned.

_____________

I see a lot of discussion about the possibility of Inferno self hammering as scum. My two cents: If he does, awesome. If someone else were to hammer and he's scum, awesome. Why would we worry about losing days of discussion if we get a dead scum out of it? We can always talk on Day 2.

____________

Liking Egg for town
Leaning town for fromage even though that eragon vote earlier urks me, his posts are giving off genuine scumhunting vibes. Inferno too would be a townlean for the reasons mentioned on page 6.

Poseidon - needs to post more
Burger - can't tell.

A50 i've got down as neutral because it isn't about lack of analyzable posts, it's that I'm not sure how to place him. Looks townie on the surface but I have this feeling that that's because he's trying to look town.
Eragon I liked some of his walls but this hammer talk really doesn't seem genuine. I'm also not sure why he's that worried about a hammer this early. Maybe it's something he's seen a lot but I haven't seen it often in my experience. (Talking about early hammer with deadline still a little ways to go)

Manatee looks scummy

You have like my exact reads. Just I'm not as skeptical of Eragon as you are.

But the difference that 1 vote makes is huge.
A hammer is final.
The player dies. The day ends. The night begins. It has serious repercussions. It changes the town:scum ratio. It cannot be missed. It doesn't get ignored.

L-1 while serious, is in the end a vote that can be unvoted, even if it's the vote that puts a wagon right on the edge. In fact, in many cases L-1 triggers scum to unvote from the wagon for whatever reason that is applicable to the game they're in.

But yes inferno should claim

I agree with this, but I also buy Eragon's post as being truthful. Him playing on a different site with a different meta would explain his actions around L-1.

Egg should post more

Meh, I get busy. Went on an unplanned trip to Boston for two days, then worked the next two 16 hours with zero internet access. I post as much as I can when I can, but get used to me not being around for a few days at a time, especially if a burst of activity happens and I can't just read real quick between shifts before bed. As for your Inferno pairings in general, why bother with it now while Inferno is still alive? If he's town, it all becomes irrelevant. If he's scum, you're better off just lynching him and figuring out his partner later. I understand the possibility of being NK'd if you're town, but meh. It really just feels like pointless work more than anything.

I feel like I’m playing Yahtzee with a deck of 47 cards

Best line in the thread so far tbh.

_______________

Hitting submit in case of hammer and thread lock. Saw on skim we're in that territory. Still trying to finish tonight but no promises.

[Egg]

Yeah, not gonna finish tonight. Sorry. Should be better tomorrow.

[Egg]

Ok, fuck quoting. My phone is being obnoxious with it.

BuJaber, walk me through your thought process. Why does scum not make that post that Game made?

Poseidon, the fact that manatee replaced out doesn't make him town.

Almost, why Lynch Tora for not picking up his PM? He doesn't even know his own alignment. I mean, he's manatee, so I'm all for it, but what's the logic here?

On Almost vs Inferno:
I do t think inferno is scum. I just think he's playing poorly, so I understand where Almost is coming from. Inferno says Almost will look dumb if the Lynch happens without a claim. I don't see how. If you get run up and asked to claim, you do it. That's the way the game works. And if you don't, you get lynched.

Game, "Lynch me" isn't playing against a win condition. It's reverse psychology and is actually pretty effective. I've done it to weasel out of lynches as both alignments. As for manatee, I don't think his inactivity is a town tell. I really didnt like that he danced around voting inferno until I asked him why he hadn't done so. It read like scum not wanting to come off as opportunistic. It was like he took my question as "permission".

[Egg]

Ok, fuck quoting. My phone is being obnoxious with it.

BuJaber, walk me through your thought process. Why does scum not make that post that Game made?

Poseidon, the fact that manatee replaced out doesn't make him town.

Almost, why Lynch Tora for not picking up his PM? He doesn't even know his own alignment. I mean, he's manatee, so I'm all for it, but what's the logic here?

On Almost vs Inferno:
I

don't

think inferno is scum. I just think he's playing poorly, so I understand where Almost is coming from. Inferno says Almost will look dumb if the Lynch happens without a claim. I don't see how. If you get run up and asked to claim, you do it. That's the way the game works. And if you don't, you get lynched.

Game, "Lynch me" isn't playing against a win condition. It's reverse psychology and is actually pretty effective. I've done it to weasel out of lynches as both alignments. As for manatee, I don't think his inactivity is a town tell. I really didnt like that he danced around voting inferno until I asked him why he hadn't done so. It read like scum not wanting to come off as opportunistic. It was like he took my question as "permission".

Bolded fixed.

[Egg]

Oh, wow. Almost may have a good point then.

[Egg]

Wait, but he was posting, so that sounds more like he just forgot to confirm. I think his posts were deleted though? I can't find them now.

[Egg]

Where did the word confirmed come from?

I voted him because I thought he was scum. The replace out doesn't change my read. So I'm leaving my vote on the slot I still think is scum. I still don't understand after ten years of playing this game why other people don't do that.

[Egg]

Where did the word confirmed come from?

I voted him because I thought he was scum. The replace out doesn't change my read. So I'm leaving my vote on the slot I still think is scum. I still don't understand after ten years of playing this game why other people don't do that.

misworded sorry. I meant "townread" Looking back on it all, yeah he's been very vague but it could just be dismissive/disinterest? Like I said, kinda wanna give the replacement at least a chance to contribute before getting the axe. Not trying to take away any reads, just don't be hasty to kill the inactive.

We have a week til deadline, so waiting to lynch is fine. But the replace out doesn't affect any of that in my eyes.

[Egg]

Would the majority still like me to claim?

Definitely no need to claim unless you get back to L-1 and intent.

[Egg]

Hmm. I can't think of a reason why scum would claim VT the way Tora just did. But Manatee was scummy and I don't like him keeping his vote on a town read and don't think there's a better option so I'll stay there. I think he's more likely scum than wh4t. Game....meh. I could see him being scum but don't feel strongly enough about that to switch at this time.

[Egg]

Hmm. I can't think of a reason why scum would claim VT the way Tora just did. But Manatee was scummy and I don't like him keeping his vote on a town read and don't think there's a better option so I'll stay there. I think he's more likely scum than wh4t. Game....meh. I could see him being scum but don't feel strongly enough about that to switch at this time.

well you see, I'm keeping the vote on wh4t for the same reason you're keeping the vote on me. there's no better option so we're both staying where we were.

Meh, I guess. I still think you are more likely to flip scum than anyone else though.

[Egg]

There is a simple answer to Almost's two questions but they were directed and wh4t and he ignored them.

[Egg]

At*

[Egg]

I'm not quite sure how to handle the situation with Tor here. I know he doesn't like to play scum, but I don't know if he would give up so easily. It's still safer to just hammer the claimed VT IMHO, but I will wait for everyone else to say they're ready to end the day.

I'm fine with the day ending. My confidence that Tor is scum is dropping some, but in this setup I can see where we just Lynch the VT claim and manatee was scummy so maybe Tor is just better at looking town as scum?

[Egg]

I don't have time to read all that.

Unvote

V/LA until Saturday night

[Egg]

Ok, plan for just before work changed so I'm gonna see if I can catch up quick before actually being V/LA...

This may be a bit nitpicky, but in game's page 16 post where he votes wh4t, I don't like how he tacks on that Tor will probably be lynched anyway. If that's his mindset, the wh4t vote seems pointless coming from town. If you aren't urging people to vote with you or anything and don't think you'll get that Lynch, why switch? It feels like it could be scum trying to stay off of the Lynch wagon. Caveats: Game did say he isn't sold on Tor being town, so I can see that being an ok compromise for him still. And, Game has a wagon on himself so if he's scum why not just let the Tor Lynch go through. Yeah, my read on Game can be described as "conflicted". He's hard for me to read.
^After typing this, I notice wh4t had the same issue with that post.

I've been thinking about Almost's stance on lynching a claimed VT. My thoughts are this: I agree if we believe the claimed VT could still flip scum. However, if we think Tor is actually VT, I disagree. I'd rather Lynch scum or hell even no Lynch than knowingly Lynch town. I skimmed the stuff I'm about to read already and the more I've seen, the more I've questioned my scum read on Tor. So my Lynch preference will have more to do with my read on Tor than the fact that he claimed VT.

Ok yeah, 428 from Tor looks town to me. Thinking he's dead and throwing shade on the person who "hammered" would be pointless as scum. As town, it's a bad read because it comes from Tor's own emotions, but probably a genuine reaction. I see Eragon (probably) agrees.

Eragon, what do you mean when you keep saying WIM? Context tells me the M is probably motivation but I can't figure it out and it's killing me lol.

So.... Tor is probably town. I think wh4t is town. Ugh. Could it just be Game/Almost70?

[Egg]

Guys I'm supposed to be V/LA. Ugh. Lol

Egg is the the supposed pairing of me and A72 based on more on my posts and then inferring him as the partner, or the either way around?

Neither. It's the fact that I can't figure out who is scum and you two are who I'm having trouble reading lol.

No time to start page 20...

[Egg]

I'd be scumreading manatee after #44 very hard and never letting it go. it's always easy to see the towny things your slot was doing before replacing in but manatee's early posting is shockingly bad.

but this is what happens when toranaga sama subs into your game. I save even the wolfiest town from guaranteed lynch.

toranaga bless.

ok moving on

Amished tell? See...Manatee and Tora's play have both been so scummy. I just can't get over that VT claim. Meh, deadline is coming up. I'm probably fine lynching there. Oh, wait. I just remembered the whole fake hammer thing too. Ugh.

I finished my reread and have a completely different view of the game now. I think scum are in Eragon/Fromage/Poseidon (in that order).

VOTE: Eragon

Eragon has been doing some townie stuff indeed, but taking a look at the bigger picture they seem to have been done for show. He often tried to feed the fire (especially on the Inferno/Manatee slots) but stayed uncommitted (by vote) for most of the time. If you take his posts separately you will probably TR him for each single one of them, but combined they didn't give the same impression. Also 377 for example is scummy enough on it's own.


I know this one's gonna be met by some strong opposition by many who have been TRing Eragon hard, and while I have played him before I do not have a strong meta on him either, so this is a read based purely on his play/posts in this thread.

I'm gonna have to ISO Eragon because he's been my strongest town read, but off the top of my head I can't say you're definitely wrong. I'll be doing that as soon as I am caught up and have more time. Will ISO Poseidon as well because I see a wagon popped up on him and have had him as a lazy town read and can't remember why.

GNB is trying to get town credit by metadiving when he doesn't have any reason to.

For what it's worth, I think this is an issue I've had with Game that I haven't really been able to verbalize. Some of his posting feels like unnecessary busy work. Like the Inferno interactions post for example. It's like he's thinking if he posts a lot of words, people will town read him. However, I haven't seen his town game and don't know if he's just someone who likes to look at things from every angle.

And remember: Do NOT CC if he claims a PR, and do NOT hammer until I've come and stated what I think is best play for the PRs (whether or not the claim is true)

Finally, something from Almost74 that I can get a read on

Can we please stop swinging between wagons? Make up your minds. Do we want to go down the safer route and lynch the claimed VT or do we want to lynch scum (and take a chance on outing a PR)? DECIDE ON THAT before you vote.

Scum all day. But what if Tor is scum?

______________

I'm gonna ISO Poseidon. That gets priority over the Eragon ISO because Eragon isn't gonna be lynched today anyway so there isn't much point. After that, I'll decide between Poseidon and Tor. I'm not voting wh4t and I don't think anyone else is going to be lynched.

_____________

What stands out:
-Inferno vote

could

be some early opportunism, but that's nothing solid.
-Post 196 asking why he's a scum read doesn't look good in my opinion. Especially considering it seems to have come out of nowhere.
-I didn't notice before that his "give the replacement a chance" was his first mention of manatee. I think I like that even less now.

_______________

Uhhhh. Something just came up and can't finish the ISO. I will before deadline though.

[Egg]

The VT claim looked town to me.

[Egg]

Sorry guys. Shit hit the fan for me today so I didn't have time to finish my Poseidon ISO and now I'm behind by five pages. Saw Fromage's claim and uhhh….it's best if I don't comment on it.

Vote Tora

I don't want any more claims today.

[Egg]

Very busy today. I see we have a guilty though. Tor Lynch is the way to go.

[Egg]

Egg when you're on can you please confirm that you do not CC the tracker claim?

Yeah I'm not counter claiming anyone.

kinda scummy of egg to not even show up

I work 16 hour days regardless of my alignment in mafia games