Open 731: Twin Trap (Game Over)
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Yeah but you used the french word for cheese, and frankly for a non-french speaker it doesn't make me think of food. Maybe a wine.
If you were called cheese or just a direct name of a cheese we'd be in agreement.- BuJaber
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Conveniently enough you're neither.In post 12, Eragon wrote:Why not eggs AND cheese?
Trying to avoid votes?
VOTE: Eragon- BuJaber
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So what happened to the 3rd PM?In post 21, Almost50 wrote:
Fight me!In post 10, Eragon wrote:Also I claim watchacker
I rolled Watcher, Tracker & VT all in one. I even got my role PM twice- BuJaber
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Talk us through that one??In post 33, Inferno390 wrote:Because I find it’s a good way to get out of RVS. Helps me judge interactions and gather info. It hasn’t failed me yet, and I doubt it will start now.
Egg is scum now btw.
VOTE: Egg- BuJaber
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I wouldn't jump to an associative read between inferno/manatee yet.
Inferno are you seriously trying to "conftown" me based on me asking the mod to post the setup spec? It's an open game. It is expected from the mod. I've read the setup when I signed up. I need a refresher regardless. I'll probably read the setup several times during the game. People forget things. It's not AI. Coupled with you only mentioning me as a player you know it's sounds like buddying. But like super obvious buddying. And he seems to be doing it with Eragon too and if Eragon is townie too then I question what scum motivation there is for pushing townreads on 2 townies so early.
I think A50 makes good points but it is the sort of policy case that can easily be pushed by scum. It's based on fact rather than subjective opinion. Very methodical approach (Action A is anti-town. Player B did action A. Therefore Player B is scum). So this push itself should be NAI.
I dislike Manatee's posting the most. Reads awkwardly and feels like trying to keep all his options open. He doesn't seem very committed to one opinion over another.
VOTE: Manatee- BuJaber
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Unclear yet. I can't determine his intentions based on just this because like I said it is NAI. When he posts more and we get an idea what his motivation is we'll know if it's genuine or not.In post 79, Eragon wrote:So are you calling A50 mechanical? And is that the towny, scummy, or neither?? Just asking to see your pinion on A50- BuJaber
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I hesitate to call this a leading question because I can't tell if you yourself would townread that but at the same time the second question messes with the integrity of his answer. It's much better to ask an open ended question and hear their untainted response first then ask any follow ups you may have.In post 84, Fromage wrote:
Why don't you tell us why you think BuJaber is town? Is it because he doesn't want to get townread for asking about the setup?In post 83, Egg wrote:I think BuJaber is town, but it's not because he reminded the Mod something was missing in the OP.- BuJaber
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Agree on most posts but 54 feels kind townie. What are your thoughts on it?In post 85, Fromage wrote:A lot of Eragon's posts contain only fluff. (35, 60, 62) I don't like it. VOTE: Eragon
FOS: Inferno. I don't like how much time he spends defending himself and how little scumhunting he does.- BuJaber
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Why the vote then?In post 117, Fromage wrote:
Read: I don't (seriously) scumread eragon.In post 115, Fromage wrote:I'm not even sure if I scumread him.
LAMIST much?In post 122, Almost50 wrote:
This isn't just "optimal", it's a rule (unless they really really don't know how to play the game).In post 119, Fromage wrote:Iirc, you said yourself that discussing PRs is anti-town. I agree and think the same applies to discussing optimal scum tactics. Do you disagree?
But the reason I said that is to alert theTPRsthat's what's gonna happen, so if we get a PR claim theydo not CC(and if they flip overnight we will know whom to lynch anyway). The TPR will now take that claim and avoid targeting that person becasie they know this is the scum that is IMMUNE to their action.
With some luck the TPR may catch the OTHER scum overnight and then they can claim on D2 leading to a town win with 2 successive lynches.
If you just took a second to think this through you'll know it's wrong. Also don't make him continue a conversation that shouldn't have started in the first place.In post 124, Inferno390 wrote:Okay
And on the off chance we actually are running up the given TPR?
See, this looks like an attempt to throw WIFOM into any claim we get off the lynch. We get a PR claim and no CC, and then scum intentionally leaves the PR alive to throw confusion into town and perhaps grab a mislynch.
Also reads like an excuse to run up people to get claims.
@Inferno - my statement is missing the words 'as town'. Inferno is lynchbait as town. He could be scum. But honestly as unhelpful as his posting has been (mainly defending himself) gun to my head I'd say he's town here. He feels attacked and spends all his time and effort defending himself. I'm not adept at reading someone like him because he's the type that makes it really difficult to townread. He distracts himself and distracts everyone and gets emotional.
Now granted I haven't seem his scum game but given that happens with him as town you have to really try and gauge his overall tone/motivations.
For example earlier I thought he was maybe buddying me. But considering he is attacking pretty much anyone who critiques or votes for him, there doesn't seem to be any interest in making friends. Unless he really thinks that if he convinces me he's town that I alone can change everyone's mind. That would be hilariously wrong as I'm rarely a town leader in any game, let alone in a playerbase that includes A50 and a few 5+ year veterans. So if it's not buddying then does that line of thinking and bad logic regarding my question to the mod make sense from scum pov? I don't really think so. Scum would be more self-conscious about using bad logic like that.- BuJaber
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In post 133, BuJaber wrote:@Inferno - my statement is missing the words 'as town'. Inferno is lynchbait as town. He could be scum. But honestly as unhelpful as his posting has been (mainly defending himself) gun to my head I'd say he's town here. He feels attacked and spends all his time and effort defending himself. I'm not adept at reading someone like him because he's the type that makes it really difficult to townread. He distracts himself and distracts everyone and gets emotional.
Now granted I haven't seem his scum game but given that happens with him as town you have to really try and gauge his overall tone/motivations.
For example earlier I thought he was maybe buddying me. But considering he is attacking pretty much anyone who critiques or votes for him, there doesn't seem to be any interest in making friends. Unless he really thinks that if he convinces me he's town that I alone can change everyone's mind. That would be hilariously wrong as I'm rarely a town leader in any game, let alone in a playerbase that includes A50 and a few 5+ year veterans. So if it's not buddying then does that line of thinking and bad logic regarding my question to the mod make sense from scum pov? I don't really think so. Scum would be more self-conscious about using bad logic like that.
This is @Eragon not @Inferno if not clear. Sorry- BuJaber
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LolIn post 162, GameNBurger wrote:P edit: looks like I’mnonlonger the l-1 vote so problem solved
Like it never happened, eh?
What kinda logic is this?!- BuJaber
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I'm not so sure Eragon is town anymore. The quickhammer talk reads fake to me. Got my eye on you.
Manatee got significant pressure early on (first to L-2 I think) and still doesn't seem interested in posting more/ posting anything useful.
You realize his entire ISO is pretty much going back and forth on inferno?- BuJaber
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When did I say they were solid?
Liking Egg for town
Leaning town for fromage even though that eragon vote earlier urks me, his posts are giving off genuine scumhunting vibes. Inferno too would be a townlean for the reasons mentioned on page 6.
Poseidon - needs to post more
Burger - can't tell.
A50 i've got down as neutral because it isn't about lack of analyzable posts, it's that I'm not sure how to place him. Looks townie on the surface but I have this feeling that that's because he's trying to look town.
Eragon I liked some of his walls but this hammer talk really doesn't seem genuine. I'm also not sure why he's that worried about a hammer this early. Maybe it's something he's seen a lot but I haven't seen it often in my experience. (Talking about early hammer with deadline still a little ways to go)
Manatee looks scummy- BuJaber
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But the difference that 1 vote makes is huge.
A hammer is final.
The player dies. The day ends. The night begins. It has serious repercussions. It changes the town:scum ratio. It cannot be missed. It doesn't get ignored.
L-1 while serious, is in the end a vote that can be unvoted, even if it's the vote that puts a wagon right on the edge. In fact, in many cases L-1 triggers scum to unvote from the wagon for whatever reason that is applicable to the game they're in.
But yes inferno should claim- BuJaber
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I'd actually be very impressed if burger flips scum after all that.
Though I don't understand his approach and I think a lot of what he's doing is based on circumstantial evidence and could all be a waste of time.
There's no harm in thinking about possible associations a little to help you sort people, but making a whole entire list based on someome being scum that hasn't flipped yet seems like an exercise in futility.
Just highly unlikely that this comes from scum tbh.- BuJaber
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Fine
But the point is when someone flips town you know they definitely don't have any partners. When someone flips scum you know that you only need to study pairings that include them.
Doing this before any flips is just an insane amount of extra work that will likely cause you to read subtext that doesn't exist or something and then in the end once we get a flip or two most of the listings would become irrelevant.
What I usually do is if I see a post that someone makes about someone or a conversation between two people or some weird case on someone I talk about specific reasons why that action probably means that x and y are not partners or that x is scum if y flips scum or similar specifix pairings based on a specific set of actions.
Like take this game for example. Inferno and A50. Very very very unlikely that they are scum partners. So if one flips scum the other is cleared more or less. Any associative that you may perceive that isn't very strong that you are not sure about if it means they are partners or not isn't worth thinking about imo. Just focus on ones that are really obvious.
The other issue is that a lot of the time an associative read might indicate a one-way relationship but not necessarily the inverse. Meaning say you read a post by player x and you think "okay player x is scum if player y flips town" you might have solid reasoning to believe that but just because this might be true would not mean that "if player y flips scum player x is town". So the associative read only gives you info for one scenario but not another. So it might be unhelpful to mention it until player y actually flips. Because if y doeant die or if x dies first you will have nothing.
I hope that makes sense- BuJaber
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Interesting reaction.In post 242, Eragon wrote:/unvote
tbh.
im scared here.
I have hated the Inferno slot and think its Scummy AF, but the AtE and a couple posts on this page seem towny.
The AtE is scummier than all his other posts.
I don't see how you could scumread the early stuff but townread this.- BuJaber
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Ehhhh just I don't think there's any benefit gained by it for scum except maybe the WIFOM of getting townread. But if that's the case I think there are far easier ways to do so that require less effort.In post 257, Egg wrote:BuJaber, walk me through your thought process. Why does scum not make that post that Game made?
It's not even something he is definitely going to be townread for. Like I did sure, but at the same time the post really doesn't help town much so I could see how some might scumread it.
That last part might be circular logic now that I think about it but there you go. First part at least is still relevant.- BuJaber
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It's not a difficult game to size up imo. Townread the obvious townies claim a null read on the few difficult to read and stick the rest in the scum pool.
They each want attention away from themselves. Tora's play makes little sense if he townreads Inferno for real. Just reads like someone who wants the slot (wh4t) to be lynched but doesn't want to seem too eager. At the same time if inferno flips townie he looks like a genius for 'townreading' the replace-out.
I mean the case hinges on Inferno being town tbh but if inferno slot does flip town it's open and shut.- BuJaber
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The point of the post was to tell eragon that it isn't very unlikely that the two of you ended up with similar reads.
Me/burger/eragon I would say are obvtown. Eragon makes me nervous with his hammer/wagon reactions but a lot of his posts are townie and he did explain the stuff about his homesite which could explain his reactions. I could see A50 being in this list for some people I just think we should give him a healthy amount of respect for his scumgame. Also I don't really agree with the inferno push. I've pretty confident inferno slot is town. And there's a few posts that look rather LAMIST coming from him.
Wh4t specifically has been kinda null ... but in the end he hasn't given me a reason to doubt my earlier read of his slot so yeah I think he's town.- BuJaber
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In post 541, Wh4t wrote:I don't feel any real frustration from you either which is a red flag for me when someone is L-1. It just feels like you're hoping to reason your way out of it and like you're just pleading. I think you're much better at coveying emotion than what you're showing this game.
Come on now I like it.
Too many people using AtE these days and it isn't AI.
Don't hammer Poseidon. We already caught scum and he's getting away with it- BuJaber
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No reasonable player would think the vote with the broken tags counts.In post 545, Wh4t wrote:The inability to express genuine reactions is totally AI. How do you explain Toranaga's reaction to the derp hammer?
No scum player would assume they were hammered without actually counting unless they already gave up on the game.
So I don't see how we can draw any info from his reaction.- BuJaber
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@Tor - that game was different. Yes I was having a lot of trouble townreading you. But I was convinced ONE of you/lavos was scum and I was right. Also I never actually voted you for long there. Here it's different. I want your slot specifically lynched.
Though after the fromage wagon eragon has surpassed anyone's scumminess. I'll revisit your slot after eragon flips.- BuJaber
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BTW if A50 stays alive he is 100% scum. Posts are pinging me and in this game I think we can apply the Mathdino scum test on A50.
Not after 1 night.. that's inconclusive. Maybe day 3.
Like why did he need my prodding to actually vote for tor and keep pushing for what he believes to be the correct play?- BuJaber
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In post 620, Wh4t wrote:
Why?In post 616, BuJaber wrote:Though after the fromage wagon eragon has surpassed anyone's scumminess.In post 615, BuJaber wrote:Eragon wants everyone dead. If he's town it's his fucking fault.
He's on a wagon pogo-stick. Hopping like mad.- BuJaber
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Luckily inferno was town enough to make up for your play.In post 637, Wh4t wrote:
I'm doing this too?In post 633, BuJaber wrote:We gave him the benefit of the doubt that the first time was because of the meta of his homesite. But now it's getting rediculous. He continues to push people to L-1 then backing off and moving to another target.
It has nothing to do with their relationship to each other. It's just that there can't be that many bad town. Especially when you consider that I've played with you, tora, A50, inferno so I know for a FACT you guys aren't this bad. I get that town may make mistakes or may not realize they are making a mistake but statistically 4 competent townies all playing badly isn't likey.In post 639, Wh4t wrote:Why can't they both be town though? Is there something that screams TvS to you?
Also 4 people voted for fromage and I townread both you and poseidon so there's only them left. Would be very ballsy of them to both be scum so I assume it's TvS.
It doesn't leave just A50 but A50 would become the absolute scummiest person in the game if eragon, tora, (and you and pos) are all town.In post 640, Wh4t wrote:
So Burger and Egg aren't town to you? How does that leave only A50?In post 636, BuJaber wrote:I'm town, wh4t's town, pos looks town, fromage is town.
IF wh4t is actually right and both Eragon and Tora are town then A50 is confscum imo.
But that would be impossible. No sane person can townread both eragon and tor right now. AT LEAST 1 is scum.- BuJaber
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Gotta shoot for the moon, baby.In post 642, Wh4t wrote:I guess your moonlogic could be townie?- BuJaber
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No we don't understand. Well, I don't anyway.In post 691, Toranaga wrote:this isn't dying at night though. it's not gonna be resolved like that. you guys understand why, yes?- BuJaber
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You guys should listen to me in the future.
I'd love to stay alive but watcher died anyway and I can't track the track immune. So this is the only guilty we'll get.
I TRACKED TORA AND HE VISITED FROMAGE.
You got buddied up reeeeeeeeal good Wh4t.
Good luck tomorrow.
Will be looking for possible partners.
VOTE: Tora.
Don't end the day until we lay some good thoughts down as to his partner is.
Just for the record if the fromage wagon didn't happen I would have targetted Egg. He's been sort of in the shadows. Nobody scumread him heavily the whole game.
If you read my ISO now with the knowledge that I'm tracker you will see that it's quite obvious. - BuJaber
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