Titling Discussion

[mastina]

Discuss title policy here. Actual title nominations should be posted in the title fairy thread instead.

[mastina]

I do think occasionally altering the title fairy thread's title every once and a while is part of the charm of a title fairy for what it's worth.

[mastina]

Honestly I would love it if at the end of every game, someone linked to the title thread, similarly to how this was/will be done for the scummies. (We still are working on refining the announcement as to make it more appealing and less spacious.)

Frankly, I personally would even want to combine the two, telling users after each game, "hey, was something here notable? You can let it be known in these spots!"
But that's probably just me.

[mastina]

A link to the title thread and Scummies thread from a game mod in postgame isn't the worst idea.

I mean, that's the best solution overall, the problem is that no matter the method, there's a problem with it.
-If it's the listmod who posts this, one, that's extra work for the listmod; two, even if the listmod doesn't mind the extra work, there's the problem of nobody actually reading the listmod's locking post because the entire reason a listmod posts is when a game is archived...and a game is only archived when people have stopped posting for a considerable amount of time.

In other words, by the time a listmod would post, literally everyone has moved on, and thus, nobody sees the announcement at all.

-If it's handled by the game mod, there's multiple problems.
*First, unless we give them one, there's no standardized format.
*Second, it's extra work for the mod.
*Third, it's not something the mods are likely to do, unless we make it mandatory...
...Which is honestly not something I think is a good idea.

The only method averting both of those is (a) volunteer(s) posting, presumably from an official account, with a standardized format post, yet still with a certain level of customization, shortly after the game has ended. As to allow others to see it, understand it comes from an official source, but not burden people who have enough of a workload already.

Yet even that is not without problems. (As I've experienced first-hand.)

Which is why I say I'd love to see it happen, but I'm not sure we can ever find a way to make it happen that's not shitty.

[mastina]

Most users have default titles that are based solely on their post count,

Okay actual good idea
is it possible we can redo these now?

Assuming I've the authorization to do so, yes; open to suggestions there.

[mastina]

just the middle 3 of Townie, Goon, Mafia Scum is a bit weird.

You're newer to the site so you probably don't know that originally, there were only three titles. People think of Mafia Scum as having staying power from being the traditional title, but they don't realize that Townie and Goon have been around for just as long. Townie was, if I recall correctly, 0-50 posts; Goon was 51-100 posts, and Mafia Scum was 100+ posts originally. I could be misremembering the post numbers, but they have that history and culture behind them.

Now, I would like to see a 20,000 post title, or survivor moved to that and something to mark 10,000 due to the fact that 23 individuals made it past the 20k mark, and the whole first page of the members list if you sort by post is people who reached 10k
And its only growing.

This is what I favor if we're going to make changes.

Open to suggestions on the name for the 10k position, or if an existing name is put there, for what name would fill that vacancy.

[mastina]

Jester or Innocent Child
Or you can impliment Jester for 10k and Innocent Child instead of JOAT

I really like Jester, as you have to be a fool to stick around long enough to earn it.

There's a certain degree of masochism involved in having stuck through long enough to earn that rank, so the parallels are striking.

[mastina]

i like all the default titles as is. my preference would be to only add ones to the end / perhaps shift survivor to a later post amount and replace the slot with something else, and to not change any of the lower ones.

My thoughts are along the same lines. I like all the current default titles, and don't want to get rid of any of them--I'm perfectly open to shifting their positions/numbers/etc., and to adding in new titles, but I'm not going to replace any of the existing ones.

I also think that mafia scum should retain its status as being a fairly long-lived title that takes some amount of time to get to. 1000-5000 posts, as is, is perfect.

I also like that each title is progressively more difficult.
Watcher to Ninja is one post.
Ninja to townie is one post.
Townie to Goon is 98 posts.
Goon to Mafia Scum is 900 posts.
Mafia Scum to JOAT is 4000 posts.
JOAT to Survivor is 5000 posts.

Whatever system we end up using, I feel should retain that progression of each being more and more work to obtain.

vonflare's proposed position for Capo wouldn't break the scale (it'd simply shift it to be 98-->399-->499), and having Jester be the current Survivor with Survivor moving to 20000 would also keep it, as the progression would go from 5000 to 10000 necessary posts.

That's what I'm favoring, but I'm still open to feedback.

[mastina]

Witness Protection comes at 30k along with a free rename.

I think this was a joke but there is actually about 7 users who have made more than 30k posts. I am not too far myself actually :O

To my knowledge, it was in fact a joke, but it's neat enough where I support it not being one.

[mastina]

hey mastina what's with all the changing titles around the site is this part of the 'special event' thing

Yes.

[mastina]

Since multiple people have asked me about this:

Regarding Alts and Titles

During the April title event, you

may

ask for a title on both your main and any alts you possess. (There is no rule saying you cannot have a title on both your main and an alt; this also applies towards normal title nominations.)

However

, come voting time, you may vote on only

one

of your accounts. (Similarly, you cannot nominate a user for a title and Nth it using alts.)

The number of votes people can cast won't be reduced due to titled alts.

Have fun!

[mastina]

We do, but we also have a rule against self-nominations for titles.

did you implement this? afaik this wasn't a rule but heavily frowned upon

Which titles should I not nominate?

You should not nominate:

• a title for yourself.
  You will not receive the title and other users may find it annoying that you tried this. If there are title nominations for you in consideration in the thread, be careful about giving too much feedback or input - while declining a specific title or set of titles that's currently in discussion for you is perfectly fine, going too far beyond that may cause users to become uncomfortable with the current proceedings.

I didn't change that from DRK's rules, so it still stands!

[mastina]

I really think the title events are cool and would even encourage more of them. I always saw the title threads to be a niche group of players talking there but the title events definitely makes it more accessible and open for the community, even if the titles only last for a month.

I'm taking suggestions for the January event, btw. The October event's pretty much set in stone; I know what I want to do for it, but I'm incredibly dissatisfied with the original idea I had for the January event which is why I want help to brainstorm.

[mastina]

Can’t we just redo Entitlement again? That one got a lot of traction.

Every title event is designed to be run annually.

If an event needs refining/tweaking, here's the place to talk about it; given the fair feedback on Title Council, for instance, when I do the special rerun, it'll have modified rules.
(Initial thoughts: lowering the threshold to 8, including the initial nomination as one of the eight, which is what I originally had before I second guessed my way into a harsher standard;
Titles can't drop below zero;
Limit antinoms to 50% of suggested titles. So, if eight titles are nominated, you can only antinom half of them. Keep the antinom = -2, but make it so that people can only use antinoms sparingly and precisely.
Am open to feedback there.)

If an event proves to be unpopular, and/or can't be effectively reworked, we drop it--ideally replacing it with another event, but if need be, dropping the number of events down.

I feel like Title Council is, as an event, not doomed to the scrap bin. (I actually thought that of all four planned events, it'd be users' favorite, and I maintain that, if the event is properly executed, it'll be precisely that! I just fucked up on the execution.)

So, Entitlement WILL be rerun…in April of 2020.

If people get sick of title events, they can be run less often, but it was my judgment that once every three months wasn't too often. It gives plenty of time where there's no event, and normal titling applies, but spices things up and generates interest in a forum which, traditionally, has suffered from large periods of dead time.

[mastina]

For the record, from memory, I believe that the official numbers are, of the 28 titles which I have approved, 12 have been through the normal process and therefore, 17 have been through two events. ("Wait, that adds up to 29, not 28." Yes, because Jingle's title is both; it came from the event, failed to go through via the event, then went through the official process, so it counts as BOTH.)

This is off the top of my head, though; I'd need to doublecheck to confirm.

EDIT: It occurs to me that Creature's title is the inverse of Jingle's title, in that it was originally proposed through the normal process, failed, then passed through an event.

Which brings the total up to 13 from the normal process, and 17 through the events, out of 28 total approved titles.

Basically, while more titles have gone through via events, the split between event and standard is ALMOST 50/50. Not 80/20 event:standard.

[mastina]

If it was December, I would suggest a Secret Santa title event. But for January, maybe consider having everyone pair with someone and their partners control what title they get?

this is an extremely good idea. I fully support title secret santa

Yah plus 1 for secret Santa

Multiple people suggested it, so I did my best to implement it.
I hope this was in line with what you guys had in mind, but I'm always open to feedback/suggestions/improvement (especially since in spite of my disclaimers I'm worried about how successful the event will actually be).

[mastina]

the "gifts" not going out until January 15th feels odd

Well the event is the January title event, which was a factor, but admittedly, both the date of the release, and the decision to give all the titles on the same date rather than handing them out the moment they're finished, were completely arbitrary.

I could easily hand out the titles once they're finished; the upside of that is getting them sooner, but the downside is that the gifter wouldn't be able to change their mind. (Think like night actions in a game of mafia; we usually let someone submit an initial action with the option to change it later any time prior to the deadline.)

I could easily set a different deadline (the original deadline was one week, with the intent of handing out titles on the 8th), but a shorter deadline feels like not enough time and a longer deadline feels like it'd give too little time for replacement gifters + would be too late to receive one.

[mastina]

To answer, sometimes an idea is found that actually is very solid and it is kept past the event period
I think that’s what KMo was asking

Well, basically:
Titles are, inherently, gifts, traditionally from the community to the scummer.
This is among the main criticisms of the title events, actually, of, "these events make titles less special", of the events cheapening titles, of generating subpar titles, etc.

But as I view it, title events still serve the purpose of the community gifting to scummers; every event prior to this required the community to approve of a title for it to stay after the event ended.

I almost enacted similar restrictions on this event, where the community would see all the gifted titles and would need to vote on which to keep--no limit on the number of votes you could cast, so you could theoretically vote to keep every single event title.

There were a number of reasons I decided not to implement that restriction though:
1: Relying on the spirit of the event, I want to trust self-enforcement of standards; for users to not gift titles which they don't think are worth keeping, and for users to not keep titles which they don't think are worth keeping.

2: In the spirit of the event, titles being gifts, this is close to the process for a title anyway--one crafted with love, and careful thought. At least, ideally so.

3: I thought it unfair to both the person giving a title and receiving a title for it to then be put to an official judge of the public. People are still free to give unofficial judgment on event titles, but it seemed cruel to require that a gift given with love and care be approved by a mass of people.

4: Specific to this year, an approvement period for the January title event would overlap with the planned rerun of the Title Council event, which would be detrimental to both.

Like with all events, this decision is open to feedback tho.

[mastina]

Oh wow all secret santa titles are permanent if 2 users like the title.

I didn't realize that.

If this is an issue, I guarantee that I won't keep it the same next year.

I'm putting a LOT of faith into the community to be honest, self-evaluate, etc. for the event and to not abuse it.

I mean, not every title I expect will be serious; a title for fun is still a valid choice, akin to a white elephant gift exchange. As long as it's given with the intention of making the giftee have a good time, more or less, the event should be successful even if not every title is kept. (I'm expecting probably only about half will be.)

But if there's a bunch of titles being kept which shouldn't be kept, well…that's an issue.

[mastina]

I mean, its explicitly against the rules for users to self-nom titles. since users will get to vote on the titles at the end of the event, this event is basically just a removal of that rule for a month why even have the rule in the first place if these 'events' are going to bypass it

There are rules in place to help mitigate that for precisely this reason; the events do not allow for total bypass of the restriction, but yes--I feel like having occasional partial bypasses of the rules in the title fairy thread is a good thing,

in moderation

, to offer opportunities worth exploring that would otherwise never exist.

I don't like permanent titles being assigned outside the main thread. temporary, sure, but it strikes me as a bit annoying that someone can get a title that'll last the life of the site and people unwilling to egopost in multiple title threads won't hear a peep about it

Normally, I do announce the titles from title events in the title thread--you can blame the lack of this on me falling behind and procrastinating endlessly; the OP of the title fairy thread is hopelessly out of date and that is entirely my fault. (I'll get to it. I'm just a horrible procrastinator.)

[mastina]

can you use a couple of your internet tabs on resolving the april event

Planning on it.
Also planning on probably not running title events in the future since there isn't a title event in the world that doesn't require me to be actively be on top of things to a level I don't think I can muster since this is the second event where I've proven unable to do so and the contrast between last year and this year in spite of it being identical events is probably, largely, due to that singular factor:
Last year I was on top of things; this year I was not. Last year the event was a success, this year the event might've produced some decent titles but wasn't a success purely because of a failure on my end.

I like the idea of running title events, but they require me to be in a state of mind that I am currently unable to muster. I don't think the fault is in the events but in me as the one running them.

[mastina]

so is the decision to keep the old scummies banners four months after the ceremony finished intentional or another exhibit of you not doing your job?

Neither, actually. It's an example of something that I needed information on, said I needed that information on it (I said repeatedly and multiple times I needed this information by the way), and it wasn't until two days ago that I actually GOT that information. (And since today's the first day I've logged in since receiving that information, it took until today for me to get started, am in the middle of it right now.)

[mastina]

can you use a couple of your internet tabs on resolving the april event

Resolving at the same time as the scummies, meaning I'm in the middle of it right now.

[mastina]

The tf does entitlement events every so often.

Events are on hold until probably after the pandemic ends because I need to be at the top of my mental game to run them--and during the pandemic, my mental health has been at an all-time low, rendering me unable to reliably run them.

[mastina]

I was under the impression I had already changed the problematic titles, can double-check tho.

[mastina]

Unfortunately, due to the coronavirus COVID-19 global pandemic, these have since ceased and will continue to cease until Mastina is either replaced or until the coronavirus COVID-19 global pandemic ends.

Actually, I'm trying to figure out how to make an event work around my schedule. I'm terrible at planning and also a horrible procrastinator, but I am in fact trying to figure out, what the event would be, how it would be run, etc.

I haven't really figured it out yet to be honest, I don't really have an idea on what would be best, what would work, etc. But it's something I have in mind. Just, well. Just, not knowing how to bring it back, yet.

It'll happen as soon as I figure out how to make it happen. It's just that I can't give an estimate.

I've just noticed that people have always tended to disagree about where the line is on contributing to discussion about you yourself having a title in the title subforum. I do think that the rule as it stands is quite likely to make people feel like they are being treated unfairly if it appears to only be applied selectively.

This is fair.

When it comes to enforcing the rules, there are two approaches you can take--
You can EITHER: enforce the rules strictly so that they are applicable to everyone and thus everyone feels like they are being treated equally since the rules are being consistently enforced,
OR: use personal, subjective, judgement of when the rules being enforced would itself be unfair. No rule is 100% foolproof as being applicable to literally every situation. So if you enforce it strictly in spite of situations where the rule is frankly ridiculous to enforce, then it can lead to people feeling discouraged, disgruntled, angry, and justifiably ranting about how ridiculous the rule was to enforce.

You cannot have both, and both have their own advantages/disadvantages. Regardless of which route you take, there will always be some people who feel dissatisfied and unhappy with the choice.

I tend to prefer the latter, of more subjective judgement calls. This is both because I feel like the title fairy position has

always

had title fairies apply fairly arbitrary judgements to at least some extent (where the title fairy uses their own judgement every step of the way, guided by their rules, but always having the final word on things), and because of personal preference of rules being more guidelines than actual rules.

However, I am open to many things.

Stricter more consistent enforcement of rules;
Revising the existing rules;
Making very big changes e.g. new threads;
Revisiting past calls of mine;
Shifting the calls that I make already.

As a way of explaining this: I can and have changed my mind on calls I've made before. I have said "I don't like this title" and then been swayed; I've said "I like this title" and then been convinced it wasn't a good fit. This is not specific to approving/denying titles and it can apply to other things, such as what to be more strict on and what to be more lenient on, up to and including discussing any treatment you believe is unfair to an individual, feelings of being discriminated against, etc.

After all: I am only human; I can and will make calls that can be incorrect to make. I can have my biases, I can have my mistaken beliefs, and I can have the wrong read on a situation where something I thought was bad was actually fine, or something I didn't notice was bad slips by.

While I do have final authority at the end of the day, I am always looking for feedback, for thoughts, etc.

I guess it also just seems a little silly to me that it is more socially acceptable to say things like "I really wish I could have a title someday" or "wow I'm really flattered you nominated me for a title but I'm not sure about XYZ" basically anywhere BESIDES the forum for discussing titles.

I mean: you shouldn't be doing it outside the title forum, either, but I'm not omniscient nor am I omnipotent. I don't know about the "I really wish I could have a title someday" or "wow I'm really flattered you nominated me for a title but I'm not sure about XYZ" said outside of the forum (I rely on people reporting it to me in order to "punish" it, so to speak; no reports of it happening, no way for me to really know it did)--and even if I did? I don't have any authority over those statements because they were not said in this forum and my power is limited to this forum.

[mastina]

If you’re looking for a relatively low effort event, mastina, you could do something like a popcorn title thread. Suggest a title for the previous poster or something.

Oh that's a good idea, just need to figure out the logistics of when to run it, for how long, how permanent the titles would be, etc.

[mastina]

Okay so time for the big announcement:
I know it is perhaps naive of me, so I could be quickly proven wrong, but I believe this community has matured to a point where some policies put in place expecting immaturity have become largely obsolete. The site has become a much safer, better place to be. Most of the bad apples have been banned, and there's a lot less of the

really

bad stuff that an idea like this would likely have sparked in times past.

I have faith that this community, mostly being reasonable adults (or people with the maturity of one), are capable of handling things with civility, restraint, and respect, in ways they couldn't have five years ago. The site has changed, the people have changed, and things are a lot more chill/laid-back now and less serious.

Paired with the longterm inactivity in this thread, I'm going to try and put that trust into practice by implementing three changes, with the hope that these can reinvigorate the title fairy forum. (Please don't prove this to be a mistake. I

know

a move like this would've been a mistake circa five years ago. It would've gotten outright NASTY. I'm placing my belief in us having evolved as a community to where what would've been a mistake five years ago, isn't still a mistake now. For the love of god please don't demonstrate I was a fool for thinking we have improved.)

Let's start with the first:

I am officially softening my rule on scummers giving too much feedback/input on their own titles.

This was already unofficially in effect, as seen in spots like here, as well as here, and going even further back.

I believe the rule still has

purpose

:

scummers are still not allowed to micromanage the discussion of their title nomination(s)

. They do not get to dictate every aspect of the discussion. They don't get to post five times per page trying to influence the title.

Titles are still

(mostly)

decided by the community,

not

the scummer the title is for

; scummers shouldn't be actively designing their title. (At least...not in here. Getting to that.)

The rule thus will remain in place, because it's not fully obsolete. However, I am making my "enforce only when absolutely needed" aspect of it more clear, in that scummers are free to give feedback akin to the type in the linked posts (and the surrounding material). Scummers have the right to say a title nomination makes them uncomfortable, that they hate it, that they won't accept anything along the lines of it, etc. If there is enough discussion for a title to be at or near the mark needed for approval, a scummer is allowed to weigh in on a nomination for them and say they like it, even give feedback for formatting or maybe improving it. However, this is a gray zone so let me basically sum it up:
Don't be overbearing.

If you're being obnoxious, if you're borderline harassing those involved in the process, if you're actively beating down every idea actively, you're probably overstepping the boundaries and entering into "giving too much feedback/input".

But one-time casual feedback of "oh hey I like this!" is fine.


The second/third:

I am starting two threads as an experiment.

Unlike events of the past, these threads have no set expiration date. They are not a temporary thing--well, if nothing goes wrong and the community doesn't object strongly, at least.

They will remain open for as long as I see fit to keep them open.

And I will see it fit to keep them open indefinitely, unless I am given reason to shut them down.

I can and will shut them down if they end up not panning out. If drama is kicked up, if the threads get too out of control, if the community strongly hates the idea, if the community strongly objects, if people can't have the maturity that I am trusting them to have, the thread(s) get locked. You only get nice things if you show you are capable of handling them respectfully and thoughtfully. Prove me wrong and I WILL shut them down, likely permanently.

The two threads:

I am making a thread to allow for scummers to self-advocate for a title.

The purpose of that thread is, specifically, for a scummer to make a solid argument for a title for themselves. It is for self-nominations

only

. And scummers only get one. It is not meant to replace this title fairy thread. It is simply to allow for scummers to make a compelling case for titling themselves, if they truly feel a specific title would be a good fit for them.

I am making a thread to allow for scummers to ask other scummers to brainstorm title ideas for that scummer.

The purpose of that thread is, specifically,

brainstorming

, for scummers who ask for it.
It is NOT for nominations.
Nominations will remain in

this

thread--brainstorming might (and ideally will)

lead

to nominations, but brainstorms are not themselves a nomination.


To give a basic summary,

nothing is being moved/replaced into those threads

; this is simply an experimental

expansion

of what we have.

The experiment is to allow for things previously discouraged, under the trust in community maturity having risen to a level where they can handle this with respect.

A basic summary of the threads:

Title Fairy

:

this thread;

unchanged

; scummers nominate

other

scummers for a title--discussion entails, with enough support, title fairy moves forward with titling the scummer nominated

.

Self-Advocacy

:

the first experimental thread;

scummers nominate

themselves

for a title--

no discussion entails

, but with enough support, the title fairy moves forward with titling the scummer

.

Community Brainstorming

:

the second experimental thread;

scummers ask for other scummers to brainstorm ideas for a title for them--

this is

not a title nomination

; none of the suggestions will directly lead to a title from that thread alone. (Although they can be moved to the other two threads if a sufficiently brilliant idea is discovered.)

This is

not

a place to

discuss

titles; it is meant as a place purely to

suggest

titles to a scummer who asks for them

.

I hope I have explained their differences sufficiently but can continue to clarify these as need-be.



The place to discuss these changes is The Policy Thread; please keep this thread for

nominations only

.

(Just as a reminder, this is the topic to discuss this change.)