Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ramcius]

VOTE: GiF

i'm pretty sure he's scum

[Ramcius]

Trust other people? What is this blasphemy?

[Ramcius]

For example I chose to believe davezas is a Town Miller until play says otherwise, because Scum Millers are pretty rare to begin with, and let's not even get into fake claiming Miller territory.

this is common sense, not trust

[Ramcius]

I was just looking to see if you'd act sketchy/squeamish about it...although perhaps I should've said srs vote after a few more posts cause maybe it was obv I was trying to get a reaction. Reeeee
Pedit: I trust everyone until you give me a reason not too

Nah the trick is to withhold your vote until that person makes even a mildly substantial post, then throw it down and say Serious Vote. It's a known trick but still works. The catch is that you're more likely to get reactions from other people who want to know why rather than the actual target.

Eh I just want to get out of RVS I'm hyped about this game and the talk of miller play that comes down to throwing opinions around isn't really my style. We'll get a serious vote and time I guess I just won't be the one to do it...maybe

VOTE: MariaR

i like RVS, so you just became my enemy

[Ramcius]

I was just looking to see if you'd act sketchy/squeamish about it...although perhaps I should've said srs vote after a few more posts cause maybe it was obv I was trying to get a reaction. Reeeee
Pedit: I trust everyone until you give me a reason not too

Nah the trick is to withhold your vote until that person makes even a mildly substantial post, then throw it down and say Serious Vote. It's a known trick but still works. The catch is that you're more likely to get reactions from other people who want to know why rather than the actual target.

Eh I just want to get out of RVS I'm hyped about this game and the talk of miller play that comes down to throwing opinions around isn't really my style. We'll get a serious vote and time I guess I just won't be the one to do it...maybe

VOTE: MariaR

i like RVS, so you just became my enemy

Last time you came at me we know how that ended you sure ya wanna try again

PUNK?

Yes, i remember, you got free ML for scum team, while you were town

[Ramcius]

...listen that was YOUR FAULT

what i can tell, i'm scared of guns, so when someone points one at me, i panic

[Ramcius]

well, this hider claim might come from scum - this way they are safe from checks and can't be used as weak cop - won't die, if visit scum

[Ramcius]

Wilky remains scum and everyone who comes in and doesn't comment on him at all while pushing the wagon elsewhere is dying over the next few days.

if i have to choose, i'd lynch Tchill - he can hide from vig, if he's tells truth about his role, while miller can be dealt by vig. But if we don't have vig, we can come back to Wilky D2/D3. That's assuming we will decide he's scum and must be dealt with

[Ramcius]

because i rather not waste lynch on someone, who can be shot

[Ramcius]

hm, good point, i'm not used to scum protectives, so haven't considered that, but aren't those rare in games anyway?

[Ramcius]

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

[Ramcius]

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

[Ramcius]

? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ?

Why would he just not claim it if that was an issue on his radar? Why would he ever be getting protection from investigative roles when he explicitly claimed something that doesn't require investigative roles?

You're just scum pushing a mislynch to distract from Wilky here well over 90% of the time.

VOTE: Wilky

fine, have your way

[Ramcius]

This seems like such an easy way to hop on to my wagon but brush your hands off any backlash once I flip town.

VOTE: Ramcius

Maybe, or maybe i just got ML'ed D1 way too many times for going against strong vocal players

P-edit: RC, i don't have gladiator role this time, so i can't change your opinion on me

[Ramcius]

This seems like such an easy way to hop on to my wagon but brush your hands off any backlash once I flip town.

VOTE: Ramcius

Maybe, or maybe i just got ML'ed D1 way too many times for going against strong vocal players

P-edit: RC, i don't have gladiator role this time, so i can't change your opinion on me

But I wasn't trying to lynch you until you gladiated someone that I was townreading?

Huh? You were strongarming wagon on me, after gladiate you said i'm town and didn't voted, it was funny, whew Kiana in next page asked where's your vote on me

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Ramcius

agree, that's good wagon

[Ramcius]

UNVOTE:

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Ramcius

agree, that's good wagon

I don't understand why a townie (moreover, anyone) would vote for themselves - seems like you saw a wagon forming and then panicked to try and loosen the noose around your neck. Also, why change your vote to Wilky seemingly just because Ouroboros called you out for it? Please explain your logic.

VOTE: Ramcius

Well, i could keep my RVS vote, but we were past RVS stage, so it's kinda obvious why i voted someone, as to why i voted Wilky - I never said i townread them, just that my scumread on Tchill was stronger, hence i said Wilky can be shot.

[Ramcius]

Sure, that's true, but given all that like we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

Why you comparing mine and Wilky wagons traction? He claimed miller in scummy manner, while what i did? Wanted someone else lynched? Voted myself to indicate how ridiculous i find this push "Ram is scummy"? I hear that in pretty much every game and should i make list of games, where i got ML'ed D1?

[Ramcius]

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

I spectated that Bastard game GIF modded, it seems to me that Ramcius is the type of player that plays in a way that rubs ppl the wrong way and ends up getting himself lynched, ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

This sort of thing is what I'm worried about since the last game I played had a D1 VI lynch and I don't want to repeat that. That's why I asked Maria about him, to see if he's known to be a VI. But I still can't get over how his jump onto Wilky looked like he just wanted RC to stop pushing him. Do you think that's something Town Ramcius would do?

I just realised i can't change RC mind and going against him would ended in my own lynch, so i decided settle for my 2nd scumread and give RC his way. There are people i feel like arguing and there are people i try reason a bit and just give their way, if they seems unmovable.

As for VI, i disagree with that, it's just that people find my methods scummy or rather not up to this site meta and i get ML'ed way too often D1 to my liking.

Also, we played in Beneath the Mask, so you have some first hand experience with me and my methods

[Ramcius]

I really don't remember much from Beneath the Mask aside from the Mulch-based drama, though your avi was familiar to me.

Also I was asking Kaede about you partially to try getting a read on her. I keep looking at the early interactiin between Kaede and Maria but can't get any reads based off of it.

How come you didn't say you thought Wilky was scummy before you voted there? The way you were talking made it sound like you trusted both Miller claims as Town with scum Tchill taking advantage of the situation.

"Let's lynch Tchill, we can vig Wilky, if needed" sounds to you like Wilky is town to me?

[Ramcius]

On second thought I think I will go back on Ram for now. Half the reason I didn't want to unvote him earlier is because I don't have a better place for my vote right now and I still don't so I'll put it back just to keep up some pressure.

VOTE: Ramcius

It's not how pressure works - you don't tell people you vote just for pressure

also, why you townreading both millers and hider claimants?

[Ramcius]

Also, to mostly RC because I feel like he would know best, but I guess anyone can chime in. In this sized game, what's the general ratio of town to scum, assuming no multiball?

14 v 4 i'd say, maybe 13 v 4 v 1, if GiF decided put some neutral for good measure

[Ramcius]

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

[Ramcius]

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

So Dave being the townread one makes him the obvious town one? Let's put it another way then what if the ones who came out to defend Daves claim were his scumbuddies? (I'm not pushing Scum!dave here by the way just trying to piece together your decision making).

Why would scumbuddies out themselves so early to defend scumbuddy, who took risky gambit?

[Ramcius]

Keep in mind that if we assume there have been no fakeclaims and that there are 5 scum in this game, then there is only a pool of 10 players that have strong positive PRs.

why assume no fakeclaims and 5 scums?

[Ramcius]

My only other scum reads so far were on Ramacius & MWNN, as both were very fickle and kept changing their votes without offering any good reason for doing so. This to me suggests an uneasyness when under pressure in the former case and a desire to please the supposedly protown mascot, Ouroboros in the latter.

Huh? What vote changing you talk about? Open my ISO and tell me what vote changing i've done? I voted Maria in RvS, i voted Wilky, then selfvoted as a joke, that's about it. I just feel like you try get easy lynch and don't like my wagon dissolving

[Ramcius]

I don't like Ventrilo's attempt push me, i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim", we still have Tchill/Wilky situation, Realmen asking to be burned with the fire, hebi's sheeping is unsettling, Nero is awkwardly silent

Hm, i guess i try

VOTE: Nero

others at least are talking

[Ramcius]

i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim"

After looking through Wraith's ISO and your question about this which is still unanswered, i dont understand what about it makes you dislike it.
First you brought up:

maybe 13 v 4 v 1, if GiF decided put some neutral for good measure

The later 13 v 4 v 1 if we assume the 1 cant win with town (serial killer for example) that also classifies as scum, not groupscum, while I believe this might be just wording issue, you're the one who brought this up at first, so I dont understand your issue with it.

if i considered sk, i said 14 v 3 v 1, but i doubt sk - 2 millers and hider in closed game with 2 KPN (as you see, i don't consider either of them gambiting scum in this case - i doubt scum would risk such gambit, if there was only 3 of them)

As to why i doubt 5 maf, there's general rule for numbers in game - town = 3xscum + 1, closest number is 13 v 4, adding 5th scum in closed game requires them to be very weak and town godlike.

As to games with similar numbers - Beneath the Mask was 16 v 5, Divergent was 15 v 4 v 1 and we barely won, Kingdom Hearts was 13 v 4

So when someone gives unrealistic number, i wonder if they have no idea about setups or are scum trying fake townslip

[Ramcius]

As for TRs, i never give those, unless someone do or say something that makes them locktown in my eyes, otherwise all my TRs are subject to change

[Ramcius]

Why hide that information? I think anyone's TRs are always subject to change unless they are mod confirmed, yet you dont see them hiding them.

Then what point of posting townreads, if you going change them later on? If anyone want my TRs, they can just assume people i'm not scumreading are my townreads atm

[Ramcius]

Also can anyone confirm that's something Ram does on every game?

I'm slowly turning ok with a ram wagon considering he was a

lot

more cocky and less team playerish/excuses like he's trying now I was biting my tongue cause I was just waiting for him to do something but hey.
I'm coming around to Ram and that vote on Nero was bad so I might take back my nero sr

Voting lurkers is never bad idea, that's brings fact that you aren't very active either

Also, i won't self meta, but why you think i could win power struggle against RC and not get lynched for standing in his way?

[Ramcius]

Huh?
You're just voting Nero for lurking?
Well tbf i've known Nero for being more active usually, but why arent you voting the people that can actually respond to pressure? Nero's last post on-site was his last post here.

Because i have strict anti-lurking policy, also, i have played quite a few games with him and saw him as both alignments, so i want get it out of the way and move on other people, while i have no or just very little past experience with most of other people (Maria and RC would be exception, but i haven't played with sum them tho), also, seems verylazy played with me too, but i have no clue who's alt it is, so i can't use past experience

[Ramcius]

So you say you've seen him as both alignments, have you found him lurking as scum?
Are you even sure he's lurking and not busy IRL?

I'm not saying he's scum, cause lurking, i'm saying i need him to speak to determine which alignment he is. My vote wasn't "hey, Nero is scum", but "Nero, where are you?"

[Ramcius]

So, oldtimers, who can confirm that in past it was norm 5 scum in 18p closed games?

[Ramcius]

My only other scum reads so far were on Ramacius & MWNN, as both were very fickle and kept changing their votes without offering any good reason for doing so. This to me suggests an uneasyness when under pressure in the former case and a desire to please the supposedly protown mascot, Ouroboros in the latter.

Huh? What vote changing you talk about? Open my ISO and tell me what vote changing i've done? I voted Maria in RvS, i voted Wilky, then selfvoted as a joke, that's about it. I just feel like you try get easy lynch and don't like my wagon dissolving

You changed your vote to wilky because Ouroboros called you out for it, you then changed your vote to yourself. It's convenient that it's suddenly a joke that you self voted now, even though others picked up on how awkward it was.

awkward, yes, but it was my way to show how ridiculous my wagon was - a guy with biggest wagon (according to RC he was l-2) looking someone else to take his place under lime light and RC's vote which was more like reaction test than real vote

[Ramcius]

So... will this Ego battle end someday?

They asked me a fucking question. I answered it.

Also can anyone confirm that's something Ram does on every game?

Since no one else wanted to actually look, I did. I only found the following as far as calling someone town, in a large theme where he replaced in, this was the only post containing a townread, and it was over 60 posts in.

Subject: Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Subject: Real Folk Blues Rematch [GAME OVER]

@smith/Titus: Let me ask you two.. what makes Ram scummier than ZZZX or Socrates? What have they done (or haven't done) that he didn't (or did)?

The resistance to conftown for me. Socrates as scum (well the only place I have seen him), he was actually more active than this. I didn't like his outward hostility to me early.

Has Ramcius still been a stick in the mud regarding your conftown status?

a) Titus not conf town, but very close to it
b) i don't pushing or trying to interact with Titus at all, it's pointless to do so with her current status, only she wanting my head for some reason

Again, over 70 posts in, the first and only townread mentioned.

I don't feel like looking more as this seems to be just the way he posts. So... NAI.

ETL

eh, some people have too much free time, you simply could see that RC isn't bringing hell on me as he played with me and was metadiving, alternatively, why would i make such lie instead of just throwing few names as townreads? That was a bold claim and RC/MariaR/Nero would just crucify me, if it was a lie

[Ramcius]

Wilky>Ram>??? (this one is hidden)>Nero

i thought we were friends...

[Ramcius]

Wilky>Ram>??? (this one is hidden)>Nero

i thought we were friends...

I'm trying this new thing where I have everyone as town until they give me reason otherwise (tbh it's harder then normal) and well
I thought otherwise

Do i really have to bring cocky Ram out to prove you that i'm town?

[Ramcius]

GiF

my vote should be on Nero

[Ramcius]

GiF

my vote should be on Nero

y aren't you trying to engage me or talk about my content or anything?

i would, but there's hardly anything to engage in your ISO

[Ramcius]

GiF

my vote should be on Nero

y aren't you trying to engage me or talk about my content or anything?

i would, but there's hardly anything to engage in your ISO

Well its hard to post content with all that lurking that I'm doing.

but real talk: That's not true and you know it.

UNVOTE:

I doubt i can get anything more from you, if no one else is joining me, but i'll keep eye on you

[Ramcius]

if i considered sk, i said 14 v 3 v 1, but i doubt sk - 2 millers and hider in closed game with 2 KPN (

as you see, i don't consider either of them gambiting scum in this case - i doubt scum would risk such gambit, if there was only 3 of them)

As to why i doubt 5 maf, there's general rule for numbers in game - town = 3xscum + 1, closest number is 13 v 4, adding 5th scum in closed game requires them to be very weak and town godlike.

As to games with similar numbers - Beneath the Mask was 16 v 5, Divergent was 15 v 4 v 1 and we barely won, Kingdom Hearts was 13 v 4

So when someone gives unrealistic number, i wonder if they have no idea about setups or are scum trying fake townslip

Who are the two players you are referring to in the bolded part?

The whole fake townslip over numbers is a bullshit argument if I have ever seen one. I mean who said there isn't a 5 man scum team? Just because it's slightly out from the norm doesn't mean it might not be the case. I also get a feeling your posting from a perspective that 100% knows the size of the scum team which doesn't go in your favour for my reads.

As for TRs, i never give those, unless someone do or say something that makes them locktown in my eyes, otherwise all my TRs are subject to change

And your scum reads aren't subject to change?

Why hide that information? I think anyone's TRs are always subject to change unless they are mod confirmed, yet you dont see them hiding them.

Then what point of posting townreads, if you going change them later on? If anyone want my TRs, they can just assume people i'm not scumreading are my townreads atm

Same as above there's not a possibility your scum reads will change later?

So, oldtimers, who can confirm that in past it was norm 5 scum in 18p closed games?

Does it really fucking matter? This might be the worst case of shit flinging I have ever seen in a mafia game.

i'm saying, both millers and hider must be town, if we have 3 maf + sk, but that makes weak town in a game with 2 KPN

scumreads always can change, but people don't question scumread changes so harsh as they do with townreads

When someone speculates unreasonable numbers, yes, it matters to me, it indicates that person just throwing numbers around without giving a thought to it

VOTE: Wilky

your earlier questions about my opinion on Dave and why he can't be scum in sounded like you asking opinion from town, yet you again pushing my lynch, when people realised i'm town and left my wagon

[Ramcius]

OK, great. Considering there is as much a chance as anything that there is a 3 man scum team with a 3rd party and if there's a 3 man scum team then Ram thinks that none of the claims are scum then why is such a huge chunk of his iso focusing on 1 of the claims being scum? Below is quotes from Ram's iso that insinuate scum in one of the claims. I still get the feeling from Ram's post that he's more in the know than most of the rest of us.

I don't believe there's 3 man scumteam with sk, 3 man scum team with non sk 3p is out of question, i believe it's 4 man mafia and maybe some non sk 3p, or town just got weaker/less PRs

[Ramcius]

So why is there no chance of scum in the claims in a 3 man scum team but half your iso is about scum in at least 1 claim in a 4 man scum team? Why such a difference with 1 player difference

because losing a member from group of 3 hurts much more than losing a member from group of 4

[Ramcius]

OK, great. Considering there is as much a chance as anything that there is a 3 man scum team with a 3rd party and if there's a 3 man scum team then Ram thinks that none of the claims are scum then why is such a huge chunk of his iso focusing on 1 of the claims being scum? Below is quotes from Ram's iso that insinuate scum in one of the claims. I still get the feeling from Ram's post that he's more in the know than most of the rest of us.

I don't believe there's 3 man scumteam with sk, 3 man scum team with non sk 3p is out of question, i believe it's 4 man mafia and maybe some non sk 3p, or town just got weaker/less PRs

Why are we doing set up spec with no flips?

This seems weird, and its something scum try to do before town.

Who you addressing with this? Who is scum speculating setup before town?

[Ramcius]

I think a few of Vent's posts after this whole tunnel started were icky, but that's... pretty much it.

I'm against the tunnel because I think it's going to be a net negative for the rest of the game. Scumflips by themselves are useless and could even benefit scum in the worst scenarios.

I don't like this post, it feels like Ank is trying save Vent and preparing for worst case scenario by doing some damage control after Vent will flip red

[Ramcius]

Do I need to show you examples of when I abused an early scumflip to my advantage as scum?

Trust me, that's not even close to a weird statement for me to make.

So, you think this town is easy to abuse for scum?

[Ramcius]

I think day 1 scumlynches are a net negative for town unless they're way ahead of where they're supposed to be relative to the amount of information they have.

This is not that type of situation at all because this Vent-push has drowned out 80% of the game. Even if Vent does flip scum, where does that get us, exactly? Limited information based on associations towards that slot and very little else directly, and less indirect information because this push was brute forced through.

What you suggesting then? Flip someone else? Who have enough associations and is scummy enough for it?

I see you complaining how bad Vent scumflip would be, but i don't see you doing something substantial to change it, do you really need RC permission to push someone else?

Also, little known fact, but you there are other methods to find scums than just rely on postflip associations

[Ramcius]

I think day 1 scumlynches are a net negative for town unless they're way ahead of where they're supposed to be relative to the amount of information they have.

This is not that type of situation at all because this Vent-push has drowned out 80% of the game. Even if Vent does flip scum, where does that get us, exactly? Limited information based on associations towards that slot and very little else directly, and less indirect information because this push was brute forced through.

What you suggesting then? Flip someone else? Who have enough associations and is scummy enough for it?

I see you complaining how bad Vent scumflip would be, but i don't see you doing something substantial to change it, do you really need RC permission to push someone else?

Also, little known fact, but there are other methods to find scums than just rely on postflip associations

EBWOP

[Ramcius]

so, you have no strong reads, you not pushing anyone, but you want someone else to be wagoned? How about yo ustep us and say "We must vote X, because he did X, Y, Z and most likely is scum". Then repeat till you get trough thick sculls and people starts vote your suggestion

[Ramcius]

I don't think you actually understand what I'm trying to get at here.

let me guess "I don't like main wagon, but i don't know what we should wagon instead and i don't want to push anyone, cause my reads aren't strong" sounds about right then?

[Ramcius]

don't play MOBAS, they're bad

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Ank

i dislike Ank's answrs at end of the day, i disliked that hammer and now i have no idea why she wants lynch lurker

[Ramcius]

who can explain this Dunn wagon to me?

[Ramcius]

guys, if you want PL lurker, lynch Wraith/Tchill, Dunn/very is just daed weight and not much info to gain from them

[Ramcius]

Ank's insistence that town should not lynch Vent because "D1 scumlynches are bad" is insanely suspicious.

That's not something scum says about their partners

thing is, you can use any strategy, if you can convince town it's right strategy by giving examples from other games

[Ramcius]

is this really a world where RC, ETL, and REAL MEN are town?? is it really???

inb4 RC is not town, scumbussing his partner as he usually does and is here to cut our innocent heads off like the evil scum maniac he is

is it the world, where all 3 of you are scum and bussed poor Vent, because he's not from your crew?

[Ramcius]

Oh before I forget

Thanks for falling for the bait, Ramcius. You can hang day three.

nah, i'm good, but i'd like to give you this fine rope, it would look nice on your neck

[Ramcius]

Sorry, I'm never getting lynched this game.

Maybe you'll have to shoot me after I find out who the rest of your team is, though. I already have a decent idea who the fourth is.

I'm listening, i always like good stories, especially from caught scum

[Ramcius]

Nah, I'll reveal it when I care enough to. Not before then.

ran out of "how to scum 101" tricks?

>"it was just a reaction test and you failed it"
>"you can never lynch me"
>"i know your team"

[Ramcius]

is this really a world where RC, ETL, and REAL MEN are town?? is it really???

inb4 RC is not town, scumbussing his partner as he usually does and is here to cut our innocent heads off like the evil scum maniac he is

is it the world, where all 3 of you are scum and bussed poor Vent, because he's not from your crew?

if you think that's the world you should concede right now because theres a 0% chance of town winning

No, i will wait RC to buss you two and then i get him for epic finale of this game

[Ramcius]

is this really a world where RC, ETL, and REAL MEN are town?? is it really???

inb4 RC is not town, scumbussing his partner as he usually does and is here to cut our innocent heads off like the evil scum maniac he is

is it the world, where all 3 of you are scum and bussed poor Vent, because he's not from your crew?

if you think that's the world you should concede right now because theres a 0% chance of town winning

No, i will wait RC to buss you two and then i get him for epic finale of this game

a cockroach trying to fight a god. ignorance.

nah, i just don't like surrender, also, pride is one of seven deadly sins FYI

[Ramcius]

the foolish pride of the cockroach will get him slain by the god. in 0.0000000001 seconds.

also, your posts do this to me:

don't mistake my honour with yours foolish pride

also, why didn't i felt might of your god?

[Ramcius]

the foolish pride of the cockroach will get him slain by the god. in 0.0000000001 seconds.

also, your posts do this to me:

don't mistake my honour with yours foolish pride

also, why didn't i felt might of your god?

because i am the nice god

RC and ETL gods arent as nice

it's interesting word choice to describe "powerless"

[Ramcius]

Also how familiar are you with the game? We are thinking RMOJ is definitely town - we received the message from the mod re: the quest, and I can't think of a single mental leap that makes that character aligned with the institute.

ETL

p-edit: Ok, how are you feeling about these people? They are weaker reads for us. I've basically scrapped our entire readslist from yesterday.

Maria
tchill
ramcius
verylazy
dunnstral

We think the game

might

be solveable if the claims are all real.

i can see why other 4 on the list, they kinda lurkers, but why you put me there? Also, i'm always available to talk, well, as long as you don't try tricks on me, then i might get little unpleasant

[Ramcius]

i can see why other 4 on the list, they kinda lurkers, but why you put me there? Also, i'm always available to talk, well, as long as you don't try tricks on me, then i might get little unpleasant

You're not easy to read. There are posts you make that look towny and then you say things that make me question what side you're really on.

ETL

You always can ask why i say something that pings you, but there no guarantee you would be satisfied with my answers - people have hard time seeing things same way as i do, i think they feel like i'm speaking gibberish, or pushing people that aren't that scummy. But pushing null reads, when gamestate isn't locked on lynch is a good way to get some reads, going aggressive on people sometimes yields results, when people say something so natural and dumb/counterintuitive same time that i just locktown them without any questions asked, sometimes they slip something they rather wouldn't say, when they are scum. I hope it helps you a bit to understand how i operate or at least how i try to

P-edit: i'm pretty sure that means you know who they are and you are in good terms with them

[Ramcius]

Spoiler:

that's why we secretly pray RC will die anytime soon and we don't have listen to him

[Ramcius]

Why would scum!ank pull a gambit like that? The more I think of it the less it looks like scum to me. Also you have been insistent on lynching lurkers for a while why push someone for it?

Being a lurker is the only reason someone wouldn't have a read on you by now?

How should i know? I never played with Ank before, so i can't give you this explanation why she would do so

When i'm in a pool with 4 lurkers, yes, i'm interested why i'm there

Lastly, when i was insistent on lynching lurkers? If you haven't seen by now, i have no saying in who gets lynched, and i don't even trying. If you referring to me saying Wraith/Tchill would be better lurker lynch than Dunn/very, that was just 1 post and i hope you can find answer why those would be better or i should repeat myself again? Or you mean my push on Nero? I wasn't pushing for his lynch, i never said i want him lynched

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Ramcius

sure

[Ramcius]

One more thing, before I check out of the thread for the day.

I don't think we were shot last night, which means that there is probably a full protective in the thread. Whoever that is should not claim today. They should target between Jungle, Kaede and RC tonight.

This is because we are a bulletproof gated vig. Talking about the specific gating of our vig is not useful for town, but we shot MWNN yesterday. Additionally, our role PM STRONGLY implies the existence of a scum protective/kill evasion role. Hence, Tchill is probably scum.

Sorry for claiming without permission, ETL, but I really don't think we were the nightkill last night. In any case where we weren't this is crazy high positive utility for town.

why shot MWNN?

[Ramcius]

Does someone have a post of claims to make things a little easier for me

Davesaz: Miller (claimed first)
Wilky: Miller (claimed second)
Tchill: Hider that can only hide behind scum (claimed third)

Impossibear is claiming vig of some sort

[Ramcius]

it's goes without a saying that scum have fakeclaims, it would be too easy to break game trough mass flavour claims, when flavour matters

that being said, people seems forgot Wraith being confident is scum not having fakeclaims D1

[Ramcius]

it's goes without a saying that scum have fakeclaims, it would be too easy to break game trough mass flavour claims, when flavour matters

that being said, people seems forgot Wraith being confident is scum not having fakeclaims D1

Where did Wraith say that? Quote it up?

Ghost

Daily catch-up

Am I the only person here who's SRing Wilky not because of what they claimed but for the way they did it?

I agree in that I find it strange that he wanted dave to nameclaim but when I asked the same of him before dave he specifically withheld his own name.

However I do find the possibility of a double Miller extremely possible considering this theme.

Please be specific on which votes you're referring to?

Sure, that's true, but given all that like we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

I also feel like this is less a case of rubbing people wrong and more very specific scummy things that he did.

Feeling the same

---

I tentatively think Maria vs Nero is TvT. More confident in a townread on Maria.

---

Keep in mind that if we assume there have been no fakeclaims

and that there are 5 scum in this game, then there is only a pool of 10 players that have strong positive PRs.

Okay trying to keep up with my thoughts at the moment.

Assuming no fakeclaims

, with the IC confirmation that leaves a 9-player pool for PRs. Since we have an unknown but presumably significant number of VTs in that pool as well, this means either a very weak town or at least one fakeclaim among the Millers and Tchill.

Right now I'm comfortable with wagons on wilky, REALMEN, Tchill, and Ankamius

About to review the latter two.

Spoiler: Ankamius Quotes of Note

Ok, tomorrow I'm going to get myself caught up in this game.

I promise.

Also, wheeeeeeeeeee

UNVOTE: wilky
VOTE: verylazy

This looks like one of those games where I'll read through and realize I have reads on two slots.

BTW I'm catching up as we speak

I'll have something a bit later on

UNVOTE: verylazy
VOTE: Ventriloquist

I'm still catching up, but I'm far enough to have a strong enough townread on Ouroboros that I'm comfortable sheeping them for right now.

<snip>

UNVOTE: Ventriloquist
VOTE: ManWithNoName

Yeah, kill this with fire.

Spoiler: TChill Quotes of Note

Ooh a Miller claim right out of the gates.

I vote to policy it.

Lol. Now I'd suspect this being scum theater more so than the other thing.

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

If a tracker or watcher was to see me I didn't want to cause confusion.

I have absolutely no way of helping town. Only causing confusion.

Which is why I hard claimed.

Townreads

Tchill
Davesaz
Alchemist21
Hebichan
Our slot obvobv

Lazy townreads

Dunnstral

well i TR this slot because i agree with most of these.

This too

Pretty split on this. VOTE: TChill because Ankamius made something resembling an effort just now.

[Ramcius]

well, he had to claim early or don't claim at all, so it makes sense to CC Dave or his fakeclaim become useless

also, are you trying outguess GiF on what roles he would put in game and what wouldn't? This falls under same argument as to why scum need fakeclaims and why they must be believable - so town couldn't just solve game by claiming flavour

[Ramcius]

Ok. You believe what you want to believe. I'll go with occam's razor.

your Ocam's razor says GiF put 2 millers again instead of messing with us by adding scum miller and normal one?

[Ramcius]

Wraith being confident is scum not having fakeclaims D1

How is this scum indicative? I'm not following.

Ghost

fake townslip, but apparently i just misunderstood

[Ramcius]

It feels like the scum that were pushing me in twilight yesterday were instructed to back off during the night just by the way it shifted at the start of the day.

Only issue with it is... why? I don't understand why anyone here would do that.

can you say names of those scums?

[Ramcius]

You guys might have a better shot at engaging people if you didn't post hundreds of posts when everyone else has like 20

This is at least a little disingenuous

i see why people want lynch you - instead of doing something productive you complain about people trying advance game

[Ramcius]

This is about trading the possibility that Ramcius might get quicklynched for conftowning me.

i don't like this - you ok to trade unknown role for you becoming conftown, but you refuse to use claimed miller?

[Ramcius]

i was thinking, i really don't like this "Ram is expendable" attitude, so we can get Wilky L-1, Impo in 3rd spot, RC on wagon, so he can't hammer, and if someone else feels lucky to do so, Impo would arrange meeting for them in graveyard

we get first part of quest done less painfully and go from there, anyone hammering today except Impo should be punished by sending them to graveyard without any questions asked

[Ramcius]

@Hebi

- Explain your reads.

What happened to your Scum!Alchemist read for role fishing?

What about Nero's slot and his interaction with MariaR yesterday?

You pretty much dropped every one of your D1 scum reads in favor of questioning someone who's universally town read - which by itself is pro-town since it shows progression somewhat and not just scum going along with the flow.

Ghost

hebi replaced out and we are waiting replacement

[Ramcius]

i see why people want lynch you - instead of doing something productive you complain about people trying advance game

What is your read on Dunnstral?

Ghost

how did you made that? cause i said that to Dunn and Tchill's 1341 post is completely different

[Ramcius]

The hell? What happened to that quote?

Ghost

But yes, that's what I'm referring to.

you asking me or Tchill?

[Ramcius]

i'll do better, i'll give you my rough idea on who's scum:

Tchill/Wilky (one of them very likely is scum)
Ank (i really disliked reactions and that shade throw without giving any names looked really bad)
last one probably in lurkers: Maria/Dunn/Wraith/hebi/Kokichi (dave and alchemist i trust you guys for now on meta reads, Nero's aggressiveness felt more like town, as scum his more troll)

[Ramcius]

@Ramcius

What do you think of Impossibear's theory of scum!hider TChill as a way to counter their role as Vigilante? Do you think it holds weight?

Ghost

you mean as a worse commuter? He might be scum commuter too, or just faking to not get targeted, who would want waste their night action on hider

Also, how does it align with Impo saying their role incline scum to have protective role?

[Ramcius]

i was thinking, i really don't like this "Ram is expendable" attitude,

I'm really very sorry, but you are. If it helps sooth your ego, I'd be arguing we should use me if I wasn't a PR.

If scum decides to lynch you to prevent the cop on me, the positive equity is fucking insane for town. You haven't obvtowned by any means and you're not on anyone's I've got a hard-on for this lynch list (unlike Wilky), so there's no one who could conceivably weasel out of the quickhammer.

i'm not afraid of scum, i'm afraid of derptown

[Ramcius]

Oh I guess I should talk about this because it's kind of relevant:

I'm still scumreading Ramcius pretty significantly from their push on me today but I'm not planning on hammering him as long as the quest is ongoing. Yesterday's hammer was situation-specific.

I'll be on the wagon beforehand if that's not trustworthy enough, idc

IIRC, you said you sr me, cause my push on you was preplanned? Ofc it was, i push you at end of D1, you give some excuses and then hammer Vent after hard defending him all time, so why would i let you from my hook? You gave me nothing to townread you, you didn't gave me names of scum, who supposedly pushed you in twilight, but retreated D2, you just throwing shade around and do nothing noteworthy to change read on you

[Ramcius]

i'm at L-1 if i count correct

[Ramcius]

welp, still L-2, project voted me second time after last VC was posted

[Ramcius]

Tchill now have 3 votes as he had from Wraith according to last VC, so unvote to let Impo get 3rd spot, or we still doing q on me?

[Ramcius]

Tchill now have 3 votes as he had from Wraith according to last VC, so unvote to let Impo get 3rd spot, or we still doing q on me?

We still doing quest on you

why take risk?

[Ramcius]

someone to lolhammer me

[Ramcius]

tbh, i don't see any reason keep this q on me, when RC agreed to lynch Tchill

UNVOTE:

if anyone wonder what i just did - Impo is in second place on my wagon now

[Ramcius]

It unfortunate that this causes another day of unnaturally formed wagons VCA is one of my strong points.

but you wanted Tchill lynch, so it's just a little inconvenience to get quest done along with his lynch

[Ramcius]

So are we doing the ram thing or no

we're doing your thing now

[Ramcius]

you are bad and you should feel bad

i just see so much bad posts here, so please stop and think before posting

[Ramcius]

OTM, maybe you just claim? Cause it's really painful to look how hard you try soft your role, yet people don't get it...

[Ramcius]

OTM, maybe you just claim? Cause it's really painful to look how hard you try soft your role, yet people don't get it...

No.

I don’t want to claim unless necessary.

Besides people don’t believe me so that is their problem not mine. I have a role and I am not being lynched for it. Ever. If people wish to think I am fake so be it. The valuable information we get from scum pushing me is worth it.

Why you think it's scum, who push you and not dumb town?

[Ramcius]

OTM, maybe you just claim? Cause it's really painful to look how hard you try soft your role, yet people don't get it...

No.

I don’t want to claim unless necessary.

Besides people don’t believe me so that is their problem not mine. I have a role and I am not being lynched for it. Ever. If people wish to think I am fake so be it. The valuable information we get from scum pushing me is worth it.

Why you think it's scum, who push you and not dumb town?

Because it happened immediately after I crumbed flavor and is a direct counter to a majority of people’s reads on the slot. Furthermore there is no ingenuity behind the pushes. It’s all a damn tape recorder. Some of them may be genuine but without the original thought there is almost certainly a scum influence.

well, have fun i guess

[Ramcius]

OTM, maybe you just claim? Cause it's really painful to look how hard you try soft your role, yet people don't get it...

No.

I don’t want to claim unless necessary.

Besides people don’t believe me so that is their problem not mine. I have a role and I am not being lynched for it. Ever. If people wish to think I am fake so be it. The valuable information we get from scum pushing me is worth it.

Why you think it's scum, who push you and not dumb town?

Because it happened immediately after I crumbed flavor and is a direct counter to a majority of people’s reads on the slot. Furthermore there is no ingenuity behind the pushes. It’s all a damn tape recorder. Some of them may be genuine but without the original thought there is almost certainly a scum influence.

well, have fun i guess

Obviously you townread me yes? Am I correct in that thought?

i have good idea what you are softing and i have hard time finding reason for scum to make such gambit, so yes, you town in my book

[Ramcius]

Then in that case why are you saying “have fun with that I guess”

Wouldn’t you work with your townread? Who do you town and scumread?

I work with everyone, not with just townreads. In your case, i just don't see how i could help you without losing my patience and telling everything

I'm pretty sure Tchill/Wilky have 1 scum in, Ank is another of my scumread, cause i didn't like their reactions and they aren't doing much to solve game, last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

as for town - Ouroboros, Impo, Jungle, Project, Dave, alchemist (this one just rust on other people's read on him) and your slot now, you got promoted from scum/lurker pile to town pile

[Ramcius]

last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

How am I lurking. Its been me talking to the brick wall known as OTM for the past few pages

your pred was lurking and you haven't done anything to townread your slot

[Ramcius]

last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

How am I lurking. Its been me talking to the brick wall known as OTM for the past few pages

your pred was lurking and you haven't done anything to townread your slot

Well he's certainly townier than you.

sorry, i didn't know we're doing popularity contest and we're supposed to tell bad jokes for towncred

[Ramcius]

last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

How am I lurking. Its been me talking to the brick wall known as OTM for the past few pages

your pred was lurking and you haven't done anything to townread your slot

Well he's certainly townier than you.

sorry, i didn't know we're doing popularity contest and we're supposed to tell bad jokes for towncred

I didnt know my jokes would have bad.. RAMifications. But, now that I know they do. I dont give a RAM.

it's ok, not everyone can have good sense of humour, you just drew short straw

[Ramcius]

hmmmmm

[Ramcius]

i had protective read on Mark - only protective, who haven't acted, would know that scum kill wasn't blocked, but rb is close enough i guess

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Wraith

I just don't see Dave being scum and rb on him is very weak argument, we aren't in such dire state to go after him and we can lynch someone we scumread instaed

[Ramcius]

we're waiting for his replacement, GIF said he failed pick up prod and will be replaced

[Ramcius]

RC, at this point i just can't take your scumread on me serious it's like 3rd time you want me lynched

[Ramcius]

ofc my and Nero interaction felt weird, i'm not picking fight with him after i had to replace out from Clash of the Gods, when i semi-jokingly/semi reaction test voted him D1 and he was town. Our fight wasn't on your guys level, but it was toxic enough not to want deal with that again. As a scum he wasn't so aggressive, even when i was deathtunneling him like no tomorrow in Surreptitious, so when i got aggressive response from him, it felt towny and i didn't wanted go furher without support

P-edit: what do you mean i don't have experience with Nero? I played like 6 games with him, couple times we clashed really hard

Oh boy, me not voting Vent too? I always try have long D1 and Vent wagon was big enough, i have no reason to push it more, but voting other people that i wanted to sort out, RC should know that i rarely join biggest wagons D1, but i was ready vote him close to deadline, if my vote was needed

[Ramcius]

RC, at this point i just can't take your scumread on me serious it's like 3rd time you want me lynched

This is just a scumclaim though lol.

After RC tried build wagon on me for reaction test, after he did 180 cause "Vent might flip green", some mysterious case isn't not even funny anymore. I'm really surprised how long it took for you to bring my interactions with Nero and me not being on Vent wagon to make "case" on me, so sorry for being sarcastic, just my interest for this game going low and soon might reach Real Folks Blue level

[Ramcius]

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

[Ramcius]

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

yikes, alright

UNVOTE

VOTE: Ramcius

took you long enough after all shade you threw my way in this game

[Ramcius]

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

[Ramcius]

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

do you think im mafia? why or why not?

i had townlean on Nero, you give me scum vibes, but it might be just your playstyle, so null i'd say

[Ramcius]

Not liking a Dave wagon anymore. VOTE: TChill/punreader

why we not lynching this?

[Ramcius]

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

yikes, alright

UNVOTE

VOTE: Ramcius

took you long enough after all shade you threw my way in this game

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

do you think im mafia? why or why not?

i had townlean on Nero, you give me scum vibes, but it might be just your playstyle, so null i'd say

Not liking a Dave wagon anymore. VOTE: TChill/punreader

why we not lynching this?

this isn't a town progression btw.
Projectmatt is also trying to push the wagon elsewhere.

Sorry that i want lynch my scumreads over my nulls

[Ramcius]

i'm starting understand why so many people lurks in these games - talking is just asking for trouble

[Ramcius]

i was speaking in general

game shouldn't be solvable by mechanics, it takes all the fun of the game

[Ramcius]

RC, are you seriously asking why no one try to lead, when you suppress everyone, who have different opinion than you? And not just suppress, but tell people you will lynch anyone, who will oppose you

[Ramcius]

People calling for my fucking lynch need to start putting their money where their mouths are.

For some reason it seems like someone new calls for it every page but a winning wagon never seems to materialize. Funny that. It's almost like scum are trying to convince the townies to make the first move so they can avoid getting tagged with the guilt tomorrow.

VOTE: Wraith

as you wish

[Ramcius]

And also if the town doesn't mislynch me I am practically guaranteed to make it to endgame by now as well. I'm too useful a target for scum, I'd be extremely surprised if they killed me.

why you so sure Impo wouldn't vig you?

[Ramcius]

I don't like Ventrilo's attempt push me, i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim", we still have Tchill/Wilky situation, Realmen asking to be burned with the fire, hebi's sheeping is unsettling, Nero is awkwardly silent

Hm, i guess i try

VOTE: Nero

others at least are talking

Okay so I know I said I didn't need to shove this up on you, but really, you should see this. Naming all of those people, especially Ventriloquist, and then going elsewhere for no reason.

Maybe we do things in different ways, but i prefer sort someone i have some experience with before going for people i don't know

[Ramcius]

still beats ramcius

i take that as a compliment

Pun is Tchill

[Ramcius]

RC, at this point i just can't take your scumread on me serious it's like 3rd time you want me lynched

You have reacted like this to every vote on you. Do you genuinely think you have played a good town game here?

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

Oh look, caving to RC again. Lets lynch this.

if you have convincing case against me, feel free to share with the class, cause i still haven't seen any and just vague "Ram is scum" just makes me laugh, especially, when they are retracted later on

I'm not caving to RC, i'm trying consolidate on someone else than Dave and who is my scumread/nullread (preferably scumread)

and to answer your question, i don't give a shit about playing good town game, my wincon is lynch scum, so i do my best to find and lynch them. If people find my methods scummy, that's on them, i'm not going hinder myself just to look more towny

also, you can die - your wish to kill me is very telling, cause that indicates you didn't copped me last night, while i'm your strongest scumread

[Ramcius]

*yawn*

I've given several reasons for my scum read on you over the course of the game but if you insist on a case i'll try pencil that in later when i'm doing my wraith iso.

Also, where in any sense would it make sense for me to waste two days to get a result on you when I already think you are scum and I think you are definitely lynchable and expendable. I'd be wasting two nights on that result in all honestly.

i don't ask reasons, i ask for a real case, something that will show that i am scum 100%

[Ramcius]

*yawn*

I've given several reasons for my scum read on you over the course of the game but if you insist on a case i'll try pencil that in later when i'm doing my wraith iso.

Also, where in any sense would it make sense for me to waste two days to get a result on you when I already think you are scum and I think you are definitely lynchable and expendable. I'd be wasting two nights on that result in all honestly.

i don't ask reasons, i ask for a real case, something that will show that i am scum 100%

Alright then, so what you want is a guilty before anyone can lynch you? Fine, show me a guilty for all your scum reads.

Did i asked too much? Can't make believable case that would prove your scumread on me?

And your counter makes me laugh, i didn't asked guilty, i asked strong arguments, which apparently you can't provide, and i never complained about my scumreads not taking me serious, i don't care, if my scumreads aren't intimidated by me or whatever, all i care is other people to agree with me and lynch them

[Ramcius]

No I could make a strong case on you and as I said if you went through my iso you'd find reads that would be the basis of that case but what you asked for is 100% proof that you are scum. The only way to do that would be an investigation result...

you complain about my reaction to vague scumreads, yet you want me to go and look your ISO for your case on me? I will make it clear - if you want me to consider and give not sarcastic answer to scumread on me, do proper job and assemble case, it's not my job to prove to everyone that i'm scum, it's yours, or whoever else, who want me lynched. Till then i have no obligations to take serious any scumread on me, especially from someone i'm considering to be a scum

[Ramcius]

also, i see people discussing RCs case on me, but it had so many misinterpretations - my interactions with Nero where driven by our past experience, i was even replaced out of game after fight with him, when we both were town, next point was that i didn't parked my vote on biggest wagon 10 days before deadline, like i ever do such things over going to vote my nulls to have better grasp on them...

[Ramcius]

So why arent we lynching dave. Idgi

because Dave is town and we should lynch scum

[Ramcius]

I mean. I would have townread him in that game, for the record.

What sort of consequences?

I mean, I have information that you don't.

Do you have incriminating info on RC?

[Ramcius]

But Kaede, please stop threatening me with policy lynches to get me to do what you want.

well, you're a good teacher i guess

[Ramcius]

#WhenBadTownGetPowerRoles

Omg ETL agrees with me on something

But wilky isn’t bad town just incorrect

so, Wilky is scum then?

[Ramcius]

Kaede’s made up number

It's not made up number, it's math.

And again I already tore that apart

It’s Dave is scum
ETL is scum
Or RC is scum

Or possibly more than one

People just don’t listen because ETL and RC are more popular and say more bullshit and I can’t communicate as well as others

1 BP
1 RB
1 hider

These have already been claimed. Assume all are town. This is at least 3 ways that mafia can fail the NK.

Whatever. I don't know why I'm still getting involved with this circus. It's cluttering up the thread with garbage.

didn't Pun said Tchill haven't submitted night action? So hider out of the question, we are arguing RB now, so that's too out of question, so it leaves your BP or there's other protective. Lastly, scum for some strange reason attacked MNWN

[Ramcius]

I mean you can try to argue scum blocked their own night kill but that would get more eyebrows than anything else here I think.

indeed, that would be ridiculous, also, there's an option that scum just forgot submit kill, i've seen in past that and town was going crazy about missing kill next day

[Ramcius]

alternate question: why is the ramcius wagon being ignored in favor of the wraith wagon? that's weird.

because people townreading me?

feel free make case on me, cause it's getting annoying, when people just throw shit at me, but can't make case

[Ramcius]

is it bad that i want Matt and Wilky dead for trying shift L-3 Wraith wagon onto me so close to deadline?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: ProjectMatt

with Wraith flipping green, his Wraith defense at the end of the day looks like TMI and attempt to get town cred, he didn't tried save him, he just didn't wanted to be on ML wagon

[Ramcius]

I thought we were supposed to be mass claiming today?
Well doesn't really matter to me, but I need to know if I need to go and figure a mass claim order or not.

well, if OTM right and we don't have real protective, massclaim isn't good idea, it would just give scum better idea who to kill

[Ramcius]

I thought we were supposed to be mass claiming today?
Well doesn't really matter to me, but I need to know if I need to go and figure a mass claim order or not.

well, if OTM right and we don't have real protective, massclaim isn't good idea, it would just give scum better idea who to kill

That’s where I disagree.

I think a majority of town PRs have already claimed.

Well, there's still must be unclaimed PRs left - you said yourself that we have 2-4 VTs only and 2 VTs already dead

[Ramcius]

I thought we were supposed to be mass claiming today?
Well doesn't really matter to me, but I need to know if I need to go and figure a mass claim order or not.

well, if OTM right and we don't have real protective, massclaim isn't good idea, it would just give scum better idea who to kill

That’s where I disagree.

I think a majority of town PRs have already claimed.

Well, there's still must be unclaimed PRs left - you said yourself that we have 2-4 VTs only and 2 VTs already dead

I made no such statement. In fact the only such statement I made was that games IMHO are horribly balanced.

sorry, for some reason i thought it was you, who speculated setup numbers, but i clearly remember someone throwing around role madness with like 10-12 PRs

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Ramcius

nice try

[Ramcius]

My action failed

Thinking this points to Jungle being in a cc for "roleblocked" too.

VOTE: Jungle

Jungle wasn't rb'ed, he gave quest to Ouro

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Ramcius

nice try

Maybe we will lynch you today

If we don't cull more of my town reads that is

you know, providing a case along with your vote might increase your chances of success

[Ramcius]

I don't feel like trying today, tbh

what a surprise

[Ramcius]

Are you going to try to push me based on that

I wouldn't mind being lynched tbh

i would, if i believed it's possible, but we both know there's few other people who will be prioritized as today's lynch

[Ramcius]

that's a bold assumption, i mean, why you think game goes till LYLO?

[Ramcius]

thinking about it, if the stars align and ETL and punreader are true claiming then there could be a total of 4 deaths during the night.

I don’t remember punreader claiming anything?

And ETL claiming vig gets from 1 to 2.

*confised*

Tchil claimed hider, who can hide behind scum, and he did this after both miller claims and it wasn't in his first post

[Ramcius]

Did I mention how bad that Wraith wagon was. Literally nothing was resolved and we have the same questions as yesterday. 100% scum was on that wagon as well.

or all scum were off wagon, because they knew Wraith gonna flip green

[Ramcius]

thinking about it, if the stars align and ETL and punreader are true claiming then there could be a total of 4 deaths during the night.

I don’t remember punreader claiming anything?

And ETL claiming vig gets from 1 to 2.

*confised*

Tchil claimed hider, who can hide behind scum, and he did this after both miller claims and it wasn't in his first post

Except he said he didn’t hide yesterday?

Ohhh but if he is town and did hide and his target was killed four deaths.

Pun said that Tchil didn't hide N1, no idea for N2 yet

also, can explain 4 deaths? Wouldn't it be 3? Maf, vig and hider target

[Ramcius]

Hiders also did if their target does.

i mean, we have 2 kills from maf and vig, hider is 3rd, if they pick maf/vig kill, i messed up my previous message a bit, but still, where 4th comes from?

[Ramcius]

So when are we lynching Dave/Maria

i want lynch you for this - we waiting Jungle before we decide our lynch, also Dave is town and Maria isn't priority lynch

[Ramcius]

So when are we lynching Dave/Maria

i want lynch you for this - we waiting Jungle before we decide our lynch, also Dave is town and Maria isn't priority lynch

I don't personally care if you wanna lynch me for this. I don't like that post. I don't like people when they say "i want to lynch you for this" it sounds fake and posturing for an audience. If you wanted to lynch me, you'd just vote me. Even if you were waiting for jungle.

Talking about posturing, yours was way more into it, so kettle calling pot black? Your slot were on my scum/null read list since D1, that post just bumps you little higher in the list, still you not my priority for today, even if we don't lynch Jungle

[Ramcius]

Kokichi you shouldnt bother arguing with scum that want an easy mislynch.

Your buddy want easy ML, but sure, protect him and he'll keep you alive, it's a good trade off i guess

[Ramcius]

You arent supposed to say those things out loud!

didn't got memo, does it come with red role PM?

[Ramcius]

You arent supposed to say those things out loud!

didn't got memo, does it come with red role PM?

????

you told me i didn't supposed to say those things, i said i didn't got those instructions and asked, if it comes with red role PM a. k. a mafia, inclining i didn't got red role PM

[Ramcius]

No it comes with common sense.

common sense in game of mafia? Now that's a good joke

[Ramcius]

So, theory is that one of the scums can use poison to kill instead of bullet?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Jungle

i think that jungle is most likely scum. there's a part of me that isn't sure because i don't understand why jungle would play that type of gambit as mafia. jungle flipping mafia will give a lot of really pertinent information about the team, imo.

i think ramcius is also very likely scum. his posturing/deflection from the jungle lynch today is bad, and after iso'ing him, his day two looks really bad. i'll make an effortpost about that at some point.

i still need to analyze the weird wraith counter-wagon at the end of the day yesterday. there were definitely scum on that.

Matt can you confirm that you didn't visit anyone last night?

i confirm that i did not visit last night.

cute, i haven't made any post after Jungle gave his explanation, yet i'm trying deflect from his lynch? Only thing i said was that we should wait him and hear what he have to say before we decide our lynch. I bet you would called me out for trying lynch him before he made defense, if i tried vote him

[Ramcius]

Pjm is an awful vote. Just like wraith.

why PJM is bad vote?

[Ramcius]

Also, mah buddy Matt, what you can tell about Kokichi defending/deflecting your wagon?

[Ramcius]

like why didnt you shoot ramcius

its always good to shoot ramcius

it wouldn't work, i can catch bullets with my teeths

[Ramcius]

Who is evil Titus?

OTM

[Ramcius]

I will not be able to catch up tonight; I will try tomorrow (though it may need to wait up to 60 hours).
However, I believe there is exactly one pun in Kokichi Oma/MariaR.
By that I mean I am absolutely positive one of them is pun, but I am also almost just as sure the other would be town.

I'll cast a vote on whichever of the two I deem more likely to be pun once I am more informed.

Full disclosure for reference: I did not use my role last night, as I did not get a chance to coordinate how I would use it.
I can tell you now that if we do not get a pun flip via lynching one of those two, my plan is to hide behind one (probably Kokichi Oma). This would allow me to give a two-for-one vig if the vig decided to shoot my announced target. If not, then this protects me from the pun nightkill if I hide behind pun or forces them to kill mislynch bait to take me out if I am someone they desire deceased.

your plan is flawed (if you town ofc) - why would scum kill 2 lynchbaits (assuming you hide behind town)? It's easy ML afterwards - maf didn't killed your target, so they must be scum

[Ramcius]

Prod dodge I will catch up properly tomorrow.

What I have read OTM is barely scratching the surface on motives behind anything and needs to think more about whats actually happening. Maria is still scum. Ram is still scum

and you still couldn't make case to prove your scumread on me, some things never changes...

[Ramcius]

you guys are funny bunch - RC was trying lead town, you complained, RC is out and you complain again, because nothing is happening. How about instead of complaining try do something productive? Also, you always have option to just replace out

[Ramcius]

you guys are funny bunch - RC was trying lead town, you complained, RC is out and you complain again, because nothing is happening. How about instead of complaining try do something productive? Also, you always have option to just replace out

Yeah good idea
VOTE: Ramcius

maybe you will be first to formulate case on me then?

[Ramcius]

Summary
MariaR is in a neighborhood with Dunn and Ouroboros created by Ouroboros.
That neighborhood also controls a tracker among all of them, track target must be agreed to by majority.
If there's 1 or more scum in the hood the track will always yield "didn't visit" regardless.
MariaR claims to track matt and getting "didn't visit"
matt confirms this.
wilky claims no result and blames OTM for it.
OTM says he targeted dave.

Alternative theory tying these together. MariaR is pun, and thus, regardless of whom was tracked, the result would be "didn't visit". projectmatt was selected (Ouroboros wanted it and MariaR knowing it could create a false negative went along with this) to falsely clear him as regardless of whether he took an action or not it would always display as him having not taken one due to MariaR's alignment being pun. willky's action failed because MariaR's role provided immunity to the investigation. (Alternatively, projectmatt has a blocking role and targeted willky.)

willky, Dunnstral, and OnTheMark are all town; MariaR and projectmatt completely messed up the town's actions.

Furthermore, JUNGLE is town who made a mistake.

Why Jungle can't be 4th member? 3 man mafia makes no sense

Or who is 4th then?

[Ramcius]

Why Jungle can't be 4th member? 3 man mafia makes no sense

Or who is 4th then?

Did you "forget" that there's a dead scum already?

Vent/Matt/Maria - i count 3, so either my math is bad or yours

[Ramcius]

Ramcius read it wrong. Punreader didn't suggest JUNGLE is town because MariaR/projectmatt are scum, they suggested that JUNGLE is town independently.

no, i didn't read it wrong, i asked why he thought Jungle is town and not last member of mafia team. It was not to make better judgement on Jungle, but to get better read on Pun - i wanted to learn, if he's have good reason to townread Jungle or it's TMI

[Ramcius]

The way you worded it does not suggest that.

well, to me "why X is town?" and "why X can't be scum?" is pretty much same, latter suits little better, when X is main wagon imho, so i don't see a problem with my wording

[Ramcius]

Spoiler:

VOTE: ProjectMatt

with Wraith flipping green, his Wraith defense at the end of the day looks like TMI and attempt to get town cred, he didn't tried save him, he just didn't wanted to be on ML wagon

this reasoning is super flimsy, considering the fact that i outed a townread on wraith before the wagon started or gained traction. are you implying that me not changing one of my townreads when they're getting wagoned is somehow a bad thing?

on that note, the above quote is one of my biggest problems with ramcius's play. his reads feel insincere and as if they lack an actual thought pattern behind them. i can't help but read his posts like they have an agenda or an ulterior motive. for example, let's examine his read on dave throughout the game.

I think a few of Vent's posts after this whole tunnel started were icky, but that's... pretty much it.

I'm against the tunnel because I think it's going to be a net negative for the rest of the game. Scumflips by themselves are useless and could even benefit scum in the worst scenarios.

I don't like this post, it feels like Ank is trying save Vent and preparing for worst case scenario by doing some damage control after Vent will flip red

this is from d1 when the wagon on vent was gaining traction. it's weird that ramcius made a post heavily implying that ankamius and ventriloquist were mafia together when at the time, he was voting wilky. in fact, he kept his vote on wilky for the rest of the day in spite of the fact that he scumread vent.

why didn't he want to join a wagon on his scumread that was actively gaining traction?

and then of course, at the start of d2, ramcius does this:

VOTE: Ank

i dislike Ank's answrs at end of the day, i disliked that hammer and now i have no idea why she wants lynch lurker

it seems clear through this little interaction that ramcius was attempting to set up vent/ank as mafia together, but refused to join in the wagon on vent or add pressure to him. pairing that with the fact that he instantly voted ank as soon as the second day started, it certainly looks like ramcius was setting up for the vent scumflip at the end of d1.

interestingly, shortly after day 2 started, ramcius outed this reads list:

i'll do better, i'll give you my rough idea on who's scum:

Tchill/Wilky (one of them very likely is scum)
Ank (i really disliked reactions and that shade throw without giving any names looked really bad)
last one probably in lurkers: Maria/Dunn/Wraith/hebi/Kokichi (dave and alchemist i trust you guys for now on meta reads, Nero's aggressiveness felt more like town, as scum his more troll)

you can see here that his reasoning for ank being scum doesn't mention the interaction with vent at all, which further makes me believe that he outed a fake partner-interaction read to push on somebody, as opposed to it being a real thought process.

few more things about ram:

Nah, I'll reveal it when I care enough to. Not before then.

ran out of "how to scum 101" tricks?

>"it was just a reaction test and you failed it"
>"you can never lynch me"
>"i know your team"

this aggressiveness and arrogance reads to me like caught-scum, and not someone sincerely interested in solving the game.

Then in that case why are you saying “have fun with that I guess”

Wouldn’t you work with your townread? Who do you town and scumread?

I work with everyone, not with just townreads. In your case, i just don't see how i could help you without losing my patience and telling everything

I'm pretty sure Tchill/Wilky have 1 scum in, Ank is another of my scumread, cause i didn't like their reactions and they aren't doing much to solve game, last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

as for town - Ouroboros, Impo, Jungle, Project, Dave, alchemist (this one just rust on other people's read on him) and your slot now, you got promoted from scum/lurker pile to town pile

the read-list here is notable because ramcius went from putting me in his town list to addressing me like he knows for sure that i'm mafia within a very short amount of time. i believe he was piggybacking off of the town's general read on me and then ditched it when it became convenient to push on me/i started becoming a potential lynch.

VOTE: Wraith

I just don't see Dave being scum and rb on him is very weak argument, we aren't in such dire state to go after him and we can lynch someone we scumread instaed

shortly after, ramcius joins the wraith wagon when it starts gaining traction, even though wraith wasn't in his top scum-reads and was listed among a potential mafia along the lurkers.

Did I mention how bad that Wraith wagon was. Literally nothing was resolved and we have the same questions as yesterday. 100% scum was on that wagon as well.

or all scum were off wagon, because they knew Wraith gonna flip green

this post definitely has an agenda to it.

let's see what we have here:

and you let lynch your "townread" Wraith without putting any real defense or at least saying why he's town? 10/10 "town" play

Did i was needed on Vent wagon? No. Did he get lynched? Yes. So me not being on Vent wagon didn't changed nothing for town. As for why i wasn't on that wagon? I didn't wanted follow RC again and didn't wanted end day so early, Vent was conf scum in my book, so i saw no point in early wagon on him

Sorry that i didn't used something that was considered NAI by people to scumread Ank

Yes, i'm scum for my aggressive playstyle, good job, especially, when you quote my post, where i push my scumread, which i was voting at a time

are you really saying that i shouldn't change early D1 read on your slot after you were acting so scummy?

again, you nitpicking, i explained my reasoning before, i will explain again - if i have lynch my null read to save my townreads, i do it, people weren't interested in lynching my scumreads, so i had to settle down for my nullread

want to share this "agenda" or you gonna keep it for yourself?

[Ramcius]

also, Matt, care to explain to everyone why would i push Wraith ML to save Dave? Cause apparently you don't think i was saving my scumbuddy from lynch

[Ramcius]

Spoiler:

let's see what we have here:

and you let lynch your "townread" Wraith without putting any real defense or at least saying why he's town? 10/10 "town" play

Did i was needed on Vent wagon? No. Did he get lynched? Yes. So me not being on Vent wagon didn't changed nothing for town. As for why i wasn't on that wagon? I didn't wanted follow RC again and didn't wanted end day so early, Vent was conf scum in my book, so i saw no point in early wagon on him

Sorry that i didn't used something that was considered NAI by people to scumread Ank

Yes, i'm scum for my aggressive playstyle, good job, especially, when you quote my post, where i push my scumread, which i was voting at a time

are you really saying that i shouldn't change early D1 read on your slot after you were acting so scummy?

again, you nitpicking, i explained my reasoning before, i will explain again - if i have lynch my null read to save my townreads, i do it, people weren't interested in lynching my scumreads, so i had to settle down for my nullread

want to share this "agenda" or you gonna keep it for yourself?

I actively tried to start wagons other than Wraith for the entire day.

You're telling me that Vent was confirmed scum to you? Where did you indicate that? Plus, you decided to force the wagon onto someone with who your entire scumread hinged on Vent being mafia? I don't see that at all.

you missed the entire point about the ank interaction.

your aggressive playstyle does not make you mafia. i have an aggressive playstyle. however, i think your aggressiveness is indicative of mafia because it's paired with a cockiness and a weird amount of confidence in reads.

you are allowed to change your reads, but you never explained your scumread on my slot and switched seemingly out of nowhere. that's why it's scummy.

your compromise on the wraith wagon would make sense if there was literally no other lynches happening. at the time of your vote, there were a lot of opportunities to push for your scumreads. that seems like a hollow excuse to me.

the "agenda" i was referring to is that you suggested that all of the scum were off of the wraith wagon at the end of yesterday, which had no basis for it and looked like an attempt to discredit kokichi's attempt to search for scum on the wraith wagon.

also, Matt, care to explain to everyone why would i push Wraith ML to save Dave? Cause apparently you don't think i was saving my scumbuddy from lynch

that doesn't make sense. are you saying i should be townreading you for not voting dave?

Yes, i remember, trying push for my head, when you had no real support as most people had me as town, not providing any real case to support your push, neither providing reasoning for why Wraith was town, so i call this a bs - you just didn't wanted to be on ML wagon

Force wagon on who? Ank? Like i could compete with RC

No i didn't miss any point. If you prefer long cases like this, it's your right, i prefer short ones, just bring up my strongest arguments,so it's harder to refute whole case by refuting couple weak arguments and Vent defense was a weak/NAI argument

Are you saying you know my meta? Or just grasping straws? I'd suggest you look my other games, i always play like this, i'm always appear confident in my scumreads - how else i could scare my scumreads, if i look doubting?

Let's begin from the fact that my read on Nero was early game/weak read, so don't put it as i was locktowning your slot and suddenly it's changed 180

Do you even know who was my scumreads at the time? Wilky, who i tried push, but no one was interested, Pun/Tchill, who was no go, cause Tchill flaked and people didn't wanted lynch Pun, cause they liked his catch up, i don't even want talk about Ank, there's literally no way i could pull that off, so what scumreads i supposed to push over Wraith?

Nice try, but why would he stop pursuing scums in Wraith wagon? Just because i brought up idea that there was no scum? Do you even believe yourself what you saying?

No, i'm asking for scum motivation for pushing Wraith ML and paint target on my back over agreeing with Dave's lynch and blaming OTM afterwards

[Ramcius]

1. i primarily tried to push on dunnstral and you. i explained my reasoning, too. are you trying to say that the fact that a lot of people townread you means that i shouldn't have pushed you? also, i explained my wraith townread in my catch-up post and posted multiple times asking for somebody to explain the scumread on wraith, which didn't happen. the fact that you're still pushing on me for not voting one of my townreads is just inane.

2. you ignored my question. where did you say that vent was confirmed scum to you? why didn't you vote the person who was confirmed scum to you?

3. my problem with your scumread on ank on d1 is that it hinged on vent being mafia, even though your read on vent was vague and not fleshed out in the slightest. that was the point.

4. meta is irrelevant to my scumread on you. i always try to act confident about my scumreads, but there's a certain level of confirmation bias that happens when you roll mafia that can be hard to avoid, and i think it's what happened with you.

5. when i asked you why you changed to me, you literally said "peer pressure" and nothing about your read on nero. i don't buy that.

6. hahaha, what? so you're saying that on day one, it made sense to push someone who would never be lynched because it was the right thing to do, but on day two you suddenly realized that you can't push on people who aren't likely to be lynched? you could have pushed on your scumreads. you could have made cases. this is an excuse for lazy play.

7. because someone who they (potentially) townread discredited the idea that there was a mafia in the wraith wagon. it very much reads like a deflection.

8. how does that paint a target on your back? who has pushed on you for that today? i already explained the "scum motivation", too.

1. No, i'm saying that pushing me, when people aren't interested in my lynch was posturing and a way to stay out of Wraith wagon

2. Let me think, i did called him scum, i fought his nonsense that he threw my way, i didn't opposed his lynch. And your question is wrong, i answered that already, question is, why would i park my vote on Vent so early in D1?

3. Are you talking about my D1 push on Ank or D2?

4. you think, glad to know that instead of checking out, you just work on your assumptions

5. It wasn't read change, you asked why i voted you, but i was wondering then and i'm wondering now - did you really missed RC asking why i'm not voting you? You even quoted his message

6. You feel difference, when main wagon is your scumread and when it's your townread? Also, it was pretty early D1 adn we were close to EoD in D2, and i don't even want to talk about different game flow on D1 and D2, which would be gibberish to you

7. If you give up on your stance so easily, when someone, who you aren't townreading is saying white is black, your initial stance was a bs to begin with

8. Good for you, if you can see future, i can't, and hard pushing ML is scummy by itself and attracts a lot of attention, when someone you pushed flips green. So why would i want so much attention as a scum, when i can just take easy ML without risk?

[Ramcius]

>when your 2 sr's are the biggest wagon
it's Christmas time to see who I can lynch first

wanna join club and explain your scumread on me? Or you keep "lol, Ram is scum" attitude like others?

[Ramcius]

1. alright. if you're going to stick to that point, then surely you can agree with me that you voting ank on d1 when people weren't interested in their lynch is posturing too. hold yourself to the same standard.

2. so in other words, you never indicated that vent was confirmed scum to you in spite of saying that you did. you barely pushed on him. i'm not asking you to park your vote, but the fact that you had a super confident scumread on one person that was so strong that it was the basis for your other scumreads makes it was weird that you barely pushed on them or explained your read at all.

3. i'm talking about the d1 push. i even said "your push on d1" in the thing you're responding to...

4. that's not a counter-argument, just a snarky response.

5. i don't understand. what does rc's post have to do with that?

6. that's super condescending. do you seriously think that i don't understand what game flow means? give me a break. it's clear to me that you're avoiding directly responding to me because you don't want your shoddy logic to be seen.

7. no. that isn't how mafia works. mafia have a tendency to try to sow doubt/cynicism into games, and they especially try to discredit reads/wagon analysis that would be detrimental to them.

8. first of all, it allows you to use the same argument you're using now as scum. also, attention as mafia is not a bad thing. there's no reason why what you did yesterday would give you negative attention, and that makes it dishonest to imply it created a target on your back. we can know that isn't true because nobody is pushing on you for that.

1. Same standard? I wasn't trying save Vent, while you claiming you attempted to save Wraith. If you want same standard, compare my push on Wraith to save Dave and your push on me to save Wraith

2. Oh, i see now, you calling me scum for D1 reaction test on Ank?

4. ofc, what else you expect, if you refuse to check my playstyle? Hint, RC knew my meta pretty well and didn't pushed me for that, so...

5. then it's your problem, not mine

6. but you obviously don't understand - you can't even understand difference, when i'm ok with main wagon and i put vote for some pressure to get better read and when i go for lynch, when i disagree with main wagon

7. Why my stance to Wraith wagon is discredit, but Kokichi's is not? He didn't provided any argument to support his stance, neither he tried pursuit scums or analyse Wraith wagon?

8. i would agree with you, if i wasn't second biggest wagon...

Also, simple fact that you ignore everyone, who's voting you and just trying push some bs on me is very telling, you just want 1 more ML before they get yoiu

[Ramcius]

welp, seems i'm 3rd biggest wagon, Maria fooled me...

[Ramcius]

>when your 2 sr's are the biggest wagon
it's Christmas time to see who I can lynch first

btw, why your vote on Pun?

[Ramcius]

1. the entire point is that your vote on ank was posturing because ank had no real chance of getting lynched. again, your logic here does not make any sense whatsoever because it assumes that me townreading wraith and trying to lynch other people is posturing. you should have just admitted that this point doesn't make any sense, dude.

2/3. wait, are you really claiming your vote on ank was a reaction test? for real? that contradicts so many other things that you've said.

4. again, this isn't about your playstyle. at. all. who cares about meta?

5. you're the person who asked me the question, dude. did you even have a reason for bringing it up?

6. you're either missing or intentionally misrepresenting the point. i feel like we're talking in circles.

7. so, your response to me calling out one of your scumtells is to say "but what about this person!? they scumtold too!". scumtells don't exist in a vacuum. i townread kokichi.

8. but nobody is pushing on you for the very thing you're saying put a target on your back.

i'm not ignoring anyone. i literally asked a page ago to talk about my reads with anyone who was online, which was met with no response. that's such a blatant lie.

this is getting frustrating.

1. indeed, it's you, who try sell idea about me trying lynch Ank D1, when i didn't

2. D1 vote on Ank was reaction test, yes, i disliked her reaction and started scumread her, where's the problem?

4. You literally was talking about my aggressive/cocky playstyle and how it shows that i'm scum

5. What did i asked? You asked about my read change on you, then you brought up my "peer pressure" response, do you even remember what we talking?

6. Sorry that i don't agree with your attempt to shade me - i was totally fine with Ank not being lynched D1, while you wanted me dead D2, how that's same?

7. Top level hipocrisy. Mine and Kokichi's stances were valid equally, yet you attack only me, also, you ignored fact that he defended you without giving any reason, yet you called me out for saying we should wait Jungle before making judgement and said i wax posturing and defending him

8. I won't even try explain anymore this, you just can't understand simple concepts

indeed, it's getting frustrating, so i just stop answering these

[Ramcius]

Ramcius, it's impossible to debate with you because your only technique is to deflect questions against you with absurd and contradictory points. I've pointed out a lot of these, but you keep moving the goalposts. It's not worth it.

@EVERYONE,

please read Ramcius's last few posts. I think they're really telling of scum-flailing.

i agree, everyone should look into how you ignore everything i say and keep on same bs like a broken record - how you can compare my vote on Ank D1 and your push on me D2, but refuse compare my push on Wraith and your push on me D2? former is me doing reaction test and not trying shift wagon, while latter is me shifting wagon from my townread and your "attempt" to shift wagon from your "townread". Next big point is your attempt to highlight my "agenda" in saying that scum where off Wraith wagon, but let's look at Wraith wagon - you/Maria/Kokichi were off wagon. You may ask why Maria and Kokichi? Maria is pretty obvious i hope, and you avoiding speak about Kokichi and ignoring my attempts to bring it up your bias towards him, when you use complete opposite treatment to me and him for same actions

[Ramcius]

i cant wait for punreader to altslip and we find out who it is

we still waiting yours altslip...

[Ramcius]

I didn't.
I asked you to tell me who wasted time by not helping out with the quest.

And of course the only answers to this would be ouroborous and Ram and ouroborous is dead.

what a surprise, someone, who have no time for more than a week to make case on me is throwing more shade my way i don't remember you volunteering to be guinea pig for q, when people were willing to wagon you

[Ramcius]

I can save you time and tell you that the only one who vocally expressed intent to sabotage the quest was ouroboros, oh and look, he flipped town.
The only reason the quest took so long was because ETL wanted a specific set of people voting their target to prevent any potential quickhammers, looks like that was a town reasoning.

Seems like it's town who wasted time on their own, not the scum's plan, if the scum wanted the quest to fail they could've just hammered someone and then play dumb, instead of this convoluted BS.

how scum can hammer, if we don't put anyone near L-1?

[Ramcius]

The quest itself is specifically a mechanism built to drag out the game.

ETL was majorly townread at the end of day one.

There was zero reason to day cop him.

Jungle’s reads read like manufactured bullshit designed to have everyone go “look at this shiny” “look at how shiny it is” while being fundamentally useless.

By your own admission Jungle was scumreading impossibear, now you say majority was townreading impossibear. So doesn't it then make impossibear the perfect target for jungle?

I didn't.
I asked you to tell me who wasted time by not helping out with the quest.

And of course the only answers to this would be ouroborous and Ram and ouroborous is dead.

what a surprise, someone, who have no time for more than a week to make case on me is throwing more shade my way i don't remember you volunteering to be guinea pig for q, when people were willing to wagon you

It wasn't casting shade at all. You disrupted the quest by unvoting yourself that is a fact. I was answering a question kaede had put out. I'm not going to apologise for not having time to create a full case just yet when I work a hella lot of hours during the week.

this is shade throwing, you literally blamed me for wasted time on quest. I brought up you as candidate for quest several times during day, cause people were willing wagon you, but no one (you included) was interested in that option, so you can keep for yourself all this shit about me wasting time

[Ramcius]

VOTE: daveasz

lynching this for blatantly trying to advance scum wincon. as pointed out by punreader.

why you don't want Matt's lynch?

[Ramcius]

Where are we in terms of votes on Matt?

L-4, Dunn and Jungle jumped the ship since last VC

[Ramcius]

Spoiler:

Case on Ram (because the fact that I have reasons for him being scum all through my iso is apparently irrelevant and doesn't count according to him).

Spoiler:

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

This makes no sense at all. Why would scum make up a hider role and claim it because of 2 claimed millers?

? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ?

Why would he just not claim it if that was an issue on his radar? Why would he ever be getting protection from investigative roles when he explicitly claimed something that doesn't require investigative roles?

You're just scum pushing a mislynch to distract from Wilky here well over 90% of the time.

VOTE: Wilky

fine, have your way

Really bad vote.

This seems like such an easy way to hop on to my wagon but brush your hands off any backlash once I flip town.

VOTE: Ramcius

Maybe, or maybe i just got ML'ed D1 way too many times for going against strong vocal players

P-edit: RC, i don't have gladiator role this time, so i can't change your opinion on me

Oh look, Scum!Ram pulling out the bad town and mislynch bait stops early too defer attention from himself.

Sure, that's true, but given all that like we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

Why you comparing mine and Wilky wagons traction? He claimed miller in scummy manner, while what i did? Wanted someone else lynched? Voted myself to indicate how ridiculous i find this push "Ram is scummy"? I hear that in pretty much every game and should i make list of games, where i got ML'ed D1?

This is not a town reaction to Ouroboros post. Even more so now we know for sure that Ouro was a town slot. Far too overly defensive.

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

I spectated that Bastard game GIF modded, it seems to me that Ramcius is the type of player that plays in a way that rubs ppl the wrong way and ends up getting himself lynched, ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

This sort of thing is what I'm worried about since the last game I played had a D1 VI lynch and I don't want to repeat that. That's why I asked Maria about him, to see if he's known to be a VI. But I still can't get over how his jump onto Wilky looked like he just wanted RC to stop pushing him. Do you think that's something Town Ramcius would do?

I just realised i can't change RC mind and going against him would ended in my own lynch, so i decided settle for my 2nd scumread and give RC his way. There are people i feel like arguing and there are people i try reason a bit and just give their way, if they seems unmovable.

As for VI, i disagree with that, it's just that people find my methods scummy or rather not up to this site meta and i get ML'ed way too often D1 to my liking.

Also, we played in Beneath the Mask, so you have some first hand experience with me and my methods

Again where is the town motivation in this post? It literally says that if he can't steamroller over someone he will just sheep them and follow them.

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

I just quoted this for the quote wall, It has one of my posts in and I still wholeheartedly stand by that too.

Also can anyone confirm that's something Ram does on every game?

I'm slowly turning ok with a ram wagon considering he was a

lot

more cocky and less team playerish/excuses like he's trying now I was biting my tongue cause I was just waiting for him to do something but hey.
I'm coming around to Ram and that vote on Nero was bad so I might take back my nero sr

Voting lurkers is never bad idea, that's brings fact that you aren't very active either

Also, i won't self meta, but why you think i could win power struggle against RC and not get lynched for standing in his way?

Again another bad post. So early in the game and Ram wasn't really under much pressure at that point but his whole demeanour is all about preserving himself from being the lynch rather than finding scum to lynch. This is something that is noticeable in most of Ram's posts tbh.

Wilky>Ram>??? (this one is hidden)>Nero

i thought we were friends...

I'm trying this new thing where I have everyone as town until they give me reason otherwise (tbh it's harder then normal) and well
I thought otherwise

Do i really have to bring cocky Ram out to prove you that i'm town?

So where's this cocky Ram you have proved yourself to no one...

I think a few of Vent's posts after this whole tunnel started were icky, but that's... pretty much it.

I'm against the tunnel because I think it's going to be a net negative for the rest of the game. Scumflips by themselves are useless and could even benefit scum in the worst scenarios.

I don't like this post, it feels like Ank is trying save Vent and preparing for worst case scenario by doing some damage control after Vent will flip red

So Ram, who hadn't pushed Vent before now, hadn't voted vent before now, had only a little interaction with vent before then suddenly starts to push on Ank claiming that Ank is scum with vent trying to save him. Hmm... Or Ram is scum with Vent, realised the lynch was inevitable and now is lining up the mislynch target for later.

I think day 1 scumlynches are a net negative for town unless they're way ahead of where they're supposed to be relative to the amount of information they have.

This is not that type of situation at all because this Vent-push has drowned out 80% of the game. Even if Vent does flip scum, where does that get us, exactly? Limited information based on associations towards that slot and very little else directly, and less indirect information because this push was brute forced through.

What you suggesting then? Flip someone else? Who have enough associations and is scummy enough for it?

I see you complaining how bad Vent scumflip would be, but i don't see you doing something substantial to change it,

do you really need RC permission to push someone else?

Also, little known fact, but you there are other methods to find scums than just rely on postflip associations

Regarding the bold part that's only a little ironic considering you seem to need his permission. Again just setting up Ank as mislynch.

VOTE: Ank

i dislike Ank's answrs at end of the day, i disliked that hammer and now

i have no idea why she wants lynch lurker

Says Ram who has a hard-on for lynching lurkers...

Ok. You believe what you want to believe. I'll go with occam's razor.

your Ocam's razor says GiF put 2 millers again instead of messing with us by adding scum miller and normal one?

I mean its pretty clear that Occam's razor would point to there being 2 millers again considering the mod has apparently done it more than once. The question then is wether Occam's Razor is right in this instance or not...

tbh, i don't see any reason keep this q on me, when RC agreed to lynch Tchill

UNVOTE:

if anyone wonder what i just did - Impo is in second place on my wagon now

So Ram didn't disrupt the quest no? Kaede had a point on asking who would have disrupted the quest to help a scum!jungle. But this is scum disrupting the quest despite of jungles alignment.

Then in that case why are you saying “have fun with that I guess”

Wouldn’t you work with your townread? Who do you town and scumread?

I work with everyone, not with just townreads. In your case, i just don't see how i could help you without losing my patience and telling everything

I'm pretty sure Tchill/Wilky have 1 scum in, Ank is another of my scumread, cause i didn't like their reactions and they aren't doing much to solve game, last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

as for town

- Ouroboros, Impo, Jungle,

Project,

Dave, alchemist (this one just rust on other people's read on him) and your slot now, you got promoted from scum/lurker pile to town pile

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

do you think im mafia? why or why not?

i had townlean on Nero,

y

ou give me scum vibes

, but it might be just your playstyle, so null i'd say

So within two days Ram has gone from Projectmatt town to voting projectmatt because of peer pressure to scum reading projectmatt. Where is the read progression here? Fuck me why is Ram even still alive right now.

*yawn*

I've given several reasons for my scum read on you over the course of the game but if you insist on a case i'll try pencil that in later when i'm doing my wraith iso.

Also, where in any sense would it make sense for me to waste two days to get a result on you when I already think you are scum and I think you are definitely lynchable and expendable. I'd be wasting two nights on that result in all honestly.

i don't ask reasons, i ask for a real case, something that will show that i am scum 100%

*yawn*

I've given several reasons for my scum read on you over the course of the game but if you insist on a case i'll try pencil that in later when i'm doing my wraith iso.

Also, where in any sense would it make sense for me to waste two days to get a result on you when I already think you are scum and I think you are definitely lynchable and expendable. I'd be wasting two nights on that result in all honestly.

i don't ask reasons, i ask for a real case, something that will show that i am scum 100%

Alright then, so what you want is a guilty before anyone can lynch you? Fine, show me a guilty for all your scum reads.

Did i asked too much? Can't make believable case that would prove your scumread on me?

And your counter makes me laugh, i didn't asked guilty, i asked strong arguments, which apparently you can't provide, and i never complained about my scumreads not taking me serious, i don't care, if my scumreads aren't intimidated by me or whatever, all i care is other people to agree with me and lynch them

Again nonsense from Ram that wanted something that would 100% prove him as scum (the only thing that could do so is investagitive results) yet backtracks and says that isn't what he wanted.

Ram was insisting that the only way a scumread on him can be taken serious is if a case is compiled into one post. Apparently all the reasons in your iso means nothing but now the same goes for Ram. I want cases built for every one of your scum reads and compiled into seperate posts for each player, otherwise by your own reasoning they won't be real scum reads.

I will ignore all your bs about me being hyper defensive against RC - you literally voted me, when RC voiced out some suspicion on me, so kinda piggybacked him to get heat from yourself. You say i'm scum, because i not try find scum, then you say i'm scum for reaction testing Ank? Very nice

my read on Matt didn't changed in 2 days, it was weak read on Nero to begin with, close to null, but sure, blow out it out of proportion - Nero wasn't in my town list list, he was null list and i was leaning town for meta reasons, and peer pressure was my answer to Matt about my vote on him, i did even quoted RC asking me why i don't vote Matt, which both of you (you and Matt) convenietly forget, when bring up this as an argument to scumread me

yes, i'm in favor of lynching lurkers, but not on day start, when there can be guilties or some scumreads from flip associations, etc, nice way of flipping my words

"bring up strong case that shows i'm scum 100%" is asking for guilty on me? I was asking to support your bold statements, cause you were 100% sure i'm scum, but instead you were backing off of it with "you want guilty?"

also, you asked about cocky me being townread? Look at VC, look at readlists and you will have your answer, yet you insist i'm not being townread

it was about time wasted, not quest disrupted, nice try to twist my words again. Why you don't bring up me saying we should do q on you for several days? Why you don't bring up that i was agreed on quest on me, but people were waisting time with not voting me and doing other irrelevant shit, but when RC gets annoyed and threatens to hammer me and i bail out from agreement, it's my fault for time wasted. Where were you, when i was telling we should do q on you? You were sitting silent, scared for your ass

I really don't know what i expected, but i'm happy that i answered all your bs and i won't have deal with this in future

[Ramcius]

I voted you because of how poorly you were playing it literally had jack shit to do with what RC was doing. In fact if you look i'm not a player who blindly followed RC anywhere this game.

No i'm not saying you're scum for reaction testing Ank, i'm saying you're scum because it wasn't a reaction test and that's a bullshit notion you have created afterwards.

Your read on Matt

DID DID DID

change in 2 days the first quote I posted was on the Sunday where you had him in your town pile. By the Tuesday you were voting him and told him you thought he was scum. Don't lie it only makes it worse for yourself in the long run scum.

Not on day start no?? Is that why only a couple posts later you provided a list of more suitable lurkers to lynch instead? Bullshit your backtracking badly.

What else shows you are scum 100% bar a guilty or other PR result?? Absolutely nothing otherwise mafia would be such an easy game that would always end in a perfect town win.

VC's aren't everything a large part of the living player list has expressed they'd be willing to lynch you.

Yes you tried to push it onto me but the quest was almost done on you. You waited until L-2 before you unvoted if you were purely doing it to stop an Oroborous hammer you would have unvoted as soon as RC said he would hammer but you waited longer to disrupt the quest.

Now c'mon I believe you have some cases to right.

yes, you didn't, he just shifted focus on me conveniently same time, when you decided vote me also, how to classify your Vent vote? I can't find any reason, but i find something better

So lynching scum is bad for town? Ank has absolutely collapsed under a slight bit of pressure here.

VOTE: vent

L-1

look who's getting at Ank right before EoD1

i really can't remember, but Nero read wasn't strong and i implied it in some readlist, maybe later on i just lumped him with town to reduce null pile, can't really remember, but with Nero lurking and replacing out there was no opportunity to make better read on his slot

and i explained why these lynches would be better than lurker PL, yet you conveniently ignored that fact

but you so adamant on me being scum, yet you saying only PR check can be 100% guilty (which isn't true either, there are things that can give false guilties too), but it's really fishy, why you took my 100% so literal and ignored me saying "case"?

then why they are wanting lynch same person i want? Do they think i'm bussing Matt?

[Ramcius]

I literally gave reasons for voting you when I did. I also gave reasons for voting vent (the post timings convinced me), I then explained my I-turn on Ank because the more I thought about it the more I thought it would be a very poor scum gambit.

Literally everything you have thrown at me there I have already explained you must try harder.

So you can't remember why you townread Matt? Despite insisting you didn't town read him may I add... Yeah.... OK

False guilties? i.e a Miller or GF and I doubt you'd be a miller without claiming by now.

Oh so scum can't bus now no??

I remember why i townread that slot, but seems your memory is very short - it was early game townread on Nero, which changed, when Matt came in and started posting, i can't remember about readlist you asking me

you not very creative, aren't you? Redirection is a thing, so bus driver can mess up results. Anyway, it wasn't about this particular game, but in general, cause your stance was general that PR check is 100% guilty and can't be messed up

and here i'm done with you, you just pushing your own agenda, throwing most ridiculous theories just to fit your agenda

heck, i even had to beg you to compose case on me, it was too hard for you. I'm your strongest scumread, yet you put no real effort to get me lynched, just throw some shade here and there, give some half assed argument, when my play don't fit "town motivation" standard, which is determined by you (or maybe i'm not your strongest scumread anymore, since you voting Maria, yet you put no effort to get people on her wagon...)

[Ramcius]

anyway, for the record, Wilky didn't said people are wrong on Matt and should lynch me instead, he kept idea that me and Matt are both scums, yet he's voting Maria. If you think i'm bussing Matt, wouldn't you want lynch him? If you don't think i'm bussing Matt, you should try stop his lynch

[Ramcius]

i knew you'll make right choice, RMOJ

[Ramcius]

Kaede didn't targeted anyone that night

[Ramcius]

well, his quest never was confirmed, and Pun called RMOJ loud fruit vendor at some point, yet no one noticed it for some reason, so Wilky's lynch was strange

but what surprised me most was Dave lynch - he was lock town. If Wilky was last maf, then Dave was clear, if Wilky wasn't last maf and someone actually messed with him - Dave was clear too, he was rb'ed N1 and N2, so he couldn't do anything

[Ramcius]

MAYBE ONE DAY WE'LL BOTH SIGN UP FOR THE SAME GAME AND BOTH ROLL TOWN!!! /TWINKLE EYES/

ONE CAN ONLY HOPE!!!!

rolling town is overrated, playing scum is much more enjoyable - people don't listen you? Just kill them

[Ramcius]

if someone is wondering how town lost this, i have an answer

[Ramcius]

if someone is wondering how town lost this, i have an answer

Does this make you, YT and me the masterfully mustachioed fella, like our three souls intertwined to make the perfect Mexican Mafioso?

i'm pretty sure that's indian fella

[Ramcius]

MAYBE ONE DAY WE'LL BOTH SIGN UP FOR THE SAME GAME AND BOTH ROLL TOWN!!! /TWINKLE EYES/

ONE CAN ONLY HOPE!!!!

rolling town is overrated, playing scum is much more enjoyable - people don't listen you? Just kill them

Rolling scum is too stressful, fun but stressful.

well, i find playing town like crawling trough mine field call wrong person scum and you in trouble, but as scum, you know who to push, who not push.

[Ramcius]

if someone is wondering how town lost this, i have an answer

Huh. I’d never seen a gif interpretation of decent scumplay, missing the mechanical clears and focusing too much attention on fakeclaimed mechanics before. It looks kinda like a bad action movie.

it's how we masterfully dodged town bullets and then send them down, while they were wondering what's happened