Open 731: Twin Trap (Game Over)

[Fromage]

Yeah. How can egg be tastier than cheese?

VOTE: BluJaber Lynch all liars.

[Fromage]

I think BuJaber is town, but it's not because he reminded the Mod something was missing in the OP.

Why don't you tell us why you think BuJaber is town? Is it because he doesn't want to get townread for asking about the setup?

[Fromage]

A lot of Eragon's posts contain only fluff. (35, 60, 62) I don't like it. VOTE: Eragon

FOS: Inferno. I don't like how much time he spends defending himself and how little scumhunting he does.

[Fromage]

Thinking eragons towny and inferno is weirdy

Could you please elaborate a bit why you think eragon is towny?

[Fromage]

The content posts are okay. Sometimes Eragon repeats stuff others have said before him. I like how he called inferno "over-exxagerating" (54) and how he doesn't want to have people at L-1 this early (61).

[Fromage]

@Inferno: Do you still think egg is scum?

[Fromage]

Fromage, why does eragons fluff outweigh his content?

Careful. I didn't say Eragon's fluff outweighs his content. I said I don't like his fluff. I'm not even sure if I scumread him.

[Fromage]

@GameNBurger: Are you fine if Inferno dies right now?

[Fromage]

I'm not even sure if I scumread him.

Read: I don't (seriously) scumread eragon.

[Fromage]

force the Scum to claim a PR

(the PR they're immune to)

Iirc, you said yourself that discussing PRs is anti-town. I agree and think the same applies to discussing optimal scum tactics. Do you disagree?

[Fromage]

I personally always feel uneasy with fast lynches Day 1

Have you changed your mind?

[Fromage]

like as in 'sarcastic' "like" or like as in "like"?

like without sarcasm. I think these are positive contributions to town.

associations are VERY possible this early.

Maybe these associations are possible but imho they aren't very useful. Basing your read of a player on another player who hasn't flipped yet is very speculative. (This might be different in Lylo)

this post almost never comes from town.

Are you saying Inferno is almost certainly scum? He exagerates and OMGUS all the time. (At least in this game. I want to take a look at his other games later).

then why did you vote me if you dont SR me???

Because I wanted you to stop fluffposting and I didn't scumread anyone else either.

[Fromage]

Eragon's wall feels townie btw. He sticks his head out and gives us something to discuss.

[Fromage]

I don't like how Burger put Inferno at L-1 and is fine with quicklynching him. Yes, inferno's behaviour has been consistent but I doubt this is a scum tell. In 58 Burger says he wants to hear more from poseidon and me before he puts inferno at L-1. Poseidon posts hardly anything 76 and I post very little. Then he just puts inferno at L-1. In 58 he said he feels uneasy quicklynching. But I don't recognize any uneasiness in 130 .

I also don't like 97. It contains a lot of speculation and focuses on one single interaction between manatee and inferno. Imho it's WIFOM. In addition to that I don't understand why he looks at manatee's meta but not at inferno's 98. Other people mentioned the possibility of inferno being lynchbait. Burger just excludes this possibility. 114 I cannot follow his thought process.

To conclude, I think Burger might be scum due to his inconsistent behaviour.
VOTE: GameNBurger

[Fromage]

@Inferno: Could you please link us some of your games and maybe give a short summary?

If you do this, please also explain how your meta has improved and if this holds true in our game.

I swear my meta has improved, BuJaber.

[Fromage]

V/LA from Friday until Monday

[Fromage]

Right now, I'm also short of time. I'm going to look at inferno's meta on Tuesday with or without his explanations.

[Fromage]

I don’t like someone just sitting at L-1, becuase scum can quickhammer if they want(bad idea, but still)

Apart from you, the only people off the wagon are egg, Bujaber and me. We have all more or less expressed scepticism against quicklynching inferno. Your post might be LAMIST.

What do you think of Burger's L-1 vote?

Pedit: A scum self-hammer isn't so bad for town.

[Fromage]

Sorry for my absence. I've read through page 11.

I don't like how Eragon urged the hammer-happy Almost50 to unvote so he could place the L-1 vote. Unsure if it's scummy though. However I liked how he unvoted inferno after the AtE. Reconsidering your reads is good in my view. I'd also like to know why Eragon townreads me.

I think it was right of inferno not to claim when he was at l-2 but don't understand why he refused to hammer when he was at l-1 and intent was stated.

Egg's posts feel townie.

[Fromage]

ok this is never scum

Why??? Effort is not alignment-indicative. And if Game was scum, writing about non-existent scum-buddies is a very easy way to put in effort withouth having to reveal anything.

[Fromage]

Fuck. I'm a TPR. If we do what A50 proposed, namely not lynching claimed PRs and not counterclaiming them, I think it's best not to fullclaim.

[Fromage]

The wagon happened really quickly. Let me look at it.

[Fromage]

Okay, Tor's vote is opportunistic but I get that he doesn't want to get lynched.

I understand Wh4t's unhappiness about my lurking. He's right. I should be caught up.

Eragon and Poseidon definitely seem the most scummy on my wagon.

[Fromage]

You're probably right. But if I had refused to claim and Burger had hammered me, Burger wouldn't be confscum.

[Fromage]

Potentially there the scenario where you really are town and are hoping the other detective can catch the scum making your kill but that’s 1/14 chance of that happening and those odds are slim AND they’re one shot, once scum shoot you they now know which guy to send to kill after that one night

7% is already significantly higher than 0%. And your odds are based on random play. I think the real odds are higher than 1/14th

[Fromage]

So do us a favor, full claim please because at this point you’re being taken out tonight no matter what

How can you be so sure of this?

[Fromage]

And I'd really love to know where you get SR's from Eragon and myself.

You just sheeped the others and put me at L-1 like it was no big deal. And that's after A50 had said running unclaimed people up was bad. You also speculate about PRs when we previously established it was anti-town. 593 So I don't have a firm scumread of you but these actions are definitely anti-town.

[Fromage]

And if that’s happening we really need to lynch Tor since we shouldn’t force out any claims more than we’ve already done

I don't get why you now agree with A50. You had no qualms hammering me. Why have you changed your mind?

SO FROMAGE: will you fullclaim day 2?

Let's talk on day 2 what to do then. Now is not the right time for it. If a majority of players want me to fullclaim, I will do so.

[Fromage]

Hey Eragon, Why do you seem to believe my claim?

[Fromage]

why would i not?

Because we said that we won't lynch a claimed PR. So claiming a TPR guarantees scum to survive day-1. Isn't this obvious?

VOTE: Eragon

[Fromage]

but why would i not beleive a TPR claim??

Because there's a 2/9 chance as well I randed scum. If you were scum would you claim VT or a TPR?

and why are you pushing me but not the other people that believed your claim?

Because they didn't vote me in the first place or they explicitly told me not to claim (wh4t).

[Fromage]

I read your post. Did you read my posts? I pushed poseidon. Yes he was the last one voting me but had talked about it previously. 592
Do you scumread him for his vote?

[Fromage]

I have no problem fullclaiming tomorrow. Game, I don't get why this is so important for you right now. Please do some scumhunting instead of only talking about procedual aspects.

[Fromage]

Why do I scumread Eragon?

In 551 he scumreads me. Initially people ignore him and he doesn't vote me. The "hopefully" announced elaboration also doesn't materialise. Then he happily joins the pressure wagon but doesn't clarify whether he actually thinks I'm scum or if he just wants to get me talking. 571 After I claim his scumread of me is totally gone. That's weird.

The mod called Eragon out for some emotional posts. 689 These don't fit well together with his statements that he completely lost his "WIM". Why would an indifferent player get so worked up?

When I attacked Eragon for fluffposting, he stopped doing it. But after I explained I wasn't really scumreading him, he resumed.
He seems to care how others read him.

What I mentioned earlier:

@A50 do you mind unvoting

I don’t like someone just sitting at L-1, becuase scum can quickhammer if they want(bad idea, but still)

You are also the one I trust most on the wagon, so I am comfortable leaving you with a vote
Manatee is scummy IME, I don’t know how to feel about burger, and Poseidon is legit null.

A50 obliges and unvotes inferno.

Spoiler:

INFERNO WHEN YOU SEE THIS... CLAIM YOUR FULL ROLE, OR WE WILL LYNCH YOU BLIND

/vote Inferno

this is L-1

There weren't a lot of posts in between. In 61, 135 and 154 Eragon also mentioned that he doesn't want to have a quickhammer. Keep in mind that a50 threatened quickhammers all the time. Changing your mind on such a fundamental question might be indication of scum-motivation.


I also agree with A50 that there are some posts which look townie at first. But actually these posts might be written by scum in order to get towncred. 118, 377 and 415 fit in this pattern

[Fromage]

So please vote Eragon or at least explain why you think I'm wrong.

[Fromage]

I just don't see why scum would attempt the fake hammer on Tor? Scum do not have daychat so it's unlikely it was orchestrated between them. There is no reason for scum to fake hammer because if the target spews town when they believe they are hammered then they've shot themselves in the foot by giving everyone a lock townread.

Why would a fakehammer need to be coordinated by scum? I think it's unlikely a fake-hammer results in a lock townread. AfaIk most fakehammers don't work because people can count the votes/ realize the hammer is already on their wagon. Anyway a lock-townread on day-1 isn't so bad for scum.

How sure are you that Tor is town btw? More or less likely than Eragon?

[Fromage]

I absolutely prefer to lynch Tor over A50, Bujaber or a no-lynch. I thought whether manatee's replace out was scum-indicative but it's probably just WIFOM. I don't like that toranga claimed when he was at L-1 without intent. 312
529 feels weird. It just doesn't make sense. I don't get how he got from townreading me to voting me and how often his reads of GameNBurger changed. But that's probably not a scumtell.

On the other hand, he has original thoughts and doesn't sheep too much. So the slot is mostly meh for me. I'd say there's a 30% chance he flips scum.

I'm also not 100% sure Eragon is scum. I would assess the odds at 70% percent but I tend to be over-confident in my scumreads, so the real odds are more likely to be 40%.

[Fromage]

I'm in my bed now. I plan to get online again one hour before deadline.

I hope this doesn't end in a no-lynch. We lose this game when we mislynch the third time. We have no protective PRs. If we no-lynch today, we already lose by mislynching twice.

[Fromage]

Willingly no-lynching is scummy. You cannot be 100% sure of any of your townreads. Even lynching town gives us additional information. Whether we are in lylo on day 3 or day 4 is unimportant. The important question is how many mislynches we can afford.

[Fromage]

If I'm forced to make the decision, yes, I would lynch a town-read over a no-lynch. If you were town, I'd expect you to do the same.

I don't understand #754

Voting a townread is bad. But hammering a town-read is good if the day ends without a lynch otherwise.

[Fromage]

I'm so confused right now

Keep calm and vote Eragon

[Fromage]

Why is it important if A50 votes you now or later?

Do you promise to self-hammer if A50 votes you?

[Fromage]

Why is it important if A50 votes you now or later?

Do you promise to self-hammer if A50 votes you?

because i want him to show that he actually will follow through with his high-talk about me being scum and lynching me no matter what

You ignored my second question

[Fromage]

Because you allegedly want to pin down A50. You want that he takes full responsibility for your lynch. If you promise to self-hammer and then do it, you achieve it

[Fromage]

Okay, but assume the only alternatives are self-hammering or no-lynching. Would you self-vote in this scenario?

[Fromage]

That would be bad play if you really were VT

[Fromage]

Because it removes a player from the game who is scumread by other players. It gives town information. It would make your case against a50 believable. If you don't self hammer as town, scum never nk you.

And like I said town also loses a mislynch by no-lynching

[Fromage]

So much more info? Why??? Lynches give us information. Nks dont

Im already outed so the PRs wont win this game

[Fromage]

GameNBurger could you please explain why Eragon is wrong with his no-lynching nonsense

[Fromage]

I think it was unfortunate for the mafia that an active player who strongly townread both of them got lynched on day-1. A no-lynch would have been much better for them.

Glad I ended up as part of the winning side. My townreads (egg, inferno, bujaber, a50) were a lot better than my scumreads. I wonder if this is just because 3/4th of the other players are also town or if I'm actually better at townreading.
I scumread Eragon for some okay reasons. Others were far fetched. Just because someone disagrees with me whether or not to self-hammer as VT, doesn't make them confirmed scum. On the other hand Tor as well as Poseidon speculated about VTs / PRs. So some anti-town actions might be scum-indicative after all.

In short, hindsight is 20/20.