Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[OnTheMark]

This feels very very wrong.

If there has to be nuance with Dave there has to be nuance with Jungle.
If there isn’t nuance with Dave then there isn’t nuance with Jungle.

Please stop being dumb.

Not sure how many times I've said the same thing - I townread Dave, I townread Jungle, I didn't and don't want to lynch either.

Where is the disconnect?

The difference is every question asked to you had Jungle as a possible scumspect and that you’re going through with this one despite not wanting to and didn’t go through with the Dave one despite not wanting to. Again what is the difference?

It looks like you’re going out of your way to avoid calling Jungle scum while pointing out scummy things.

Who shoots you? Jungle or RCdra.
RCdra is dead and confirmed town.

You’re going out of your way here to say you don’t want it yet your ISO points to that you should.

[OnTheMark]

FTR, playerlist based only:

Likely to shoot our slot:

Jungle>RCdra>random player caught confirmable crumbs.

It's not a hard guilty on Dave or RC, but it is definitely good evidence. We need to reread Dave to make sure you're not wrong there ETL.

Regardless, RC isn't the right play specifically today, because if Jungle is scum RC becomes conftown in my book and we learn that tomorrow based on the quest existing/not existing.

PEdit: Are you saying the mod didn't tell you about previous actions? If so, did you ask if your slot had acted previously?

[OnTheMark]

If you were following a logical progression
Dave town
Then that means scum shot you from your point of view.

This means when RCdra flipped town you shoulda been all over Jungle like a butter on toast.

Yet you’re insisting you townread the slot.

THAT doesn’t make sense to me.

[OnTheMark]

Furthermore you specifically tied Jungle’s alignment to the quest.

Yet you’re talking about Jungle town because of the quest failing.

You’re not being consistent.

[OnTheMark]

why the fuck would I out the 2nd hood member
no town benefit in it at all
Outting the track was dumb as well incase it was a cc
holding info from people that can be scum isn't scummy what so ever. For all we know Matt fit his claim to fit my tracker result instead we just needed a mass claim or for me to not out the info at all someone else is in the hood. Just outting info at random isn't smart it's moronic
Pedit: IT HAS NOT ARE YOU JOKING RN Outting the info that could clear me and another slot?
Outting the info that can catch a mafia if we wait a little?
What game are you reading

Something is wrong with my reads.

This is Maria town.

[OnTheMark]

dunn
maria
pmatt

possibly one of or one replacing:
kokichi, tchill/pun, dave ?

I'm fine with leaving Maria for today. Need to sort the rest definitively.

Kaede, Alchemist

and maybe Ankamius:
Thoughts on kokichi and punreader? and Dunnstral, I guess.

p-edit:

@Maria

Yeah ok but with RC dead, there's no way to trust that you even have another neighbor at all, much less that the neighbor is even town. Like, now that RC is dead, the whole neighborhood can be used to really easily setup a false clear.

Suppose:

If Maria is scum. RC neighborizes Maria. ScumMaria learns all she needs to about how the role works, team kills RC, and use neighborhood mechanics in scum favor thusly -

Next day, RC dead, Maria claims there is another neighbor (who will actually be scum partner). Refuses to say who it is, that is, until we deliver our shot tonight. Next day, asks for massclaim saying that "outing the result before actions have been claimed is useless", then says that so-and-so visited such-n-such, thus "clearing" said partner, who will be claimed that day.

Thus, if Maria is telling the truth, claiming the partner today only risks one of them dying and confirming her claims, should scum decide to shoot that way. Not really a bad trade if you ask me, because it can still clear Maria.

ETL

No.

This is not happening.

I see what Maria is getting at I

think

And if need be I

might be lying and say I am the other hood person

Or I might

not be the other hood person

Or anyone who is town claims to be that hood person to throw off scum.

That is not happening.

[OnTheMark]

Next day, RC dead, Maria claims there is another neighbor (who will actually be scum partner). Refuses to say who it is, that is, until we deliver our shot tonight.

This also very well explains why Ouroboros is dead today and not yesterday.

ETL

That would necessitate scum having knowledge of RC's role N1.

i firmly believe they shot us N1

Then you should be scumreading Jungle!

And don’t say that’s a Jingle post. I am saying ETL should scumread Jungle.

[OnTheMark]

If Jungle's scum and scum shot ETL, that would imply the people that have been shot are simultanously the ppl Jungle has given a quest to, THAT doesnt ever happen.

Why not? Seems like a smart scum play.

[OnTheMark]

If Jungle's scum and scum shot ETL, that would imply the people that have been shot are simultanously the ppl Jungle has given a quest to, THAT doesnt ever happen.

Why not? Seems like a smart scum play.

Why? Seems like dumb scum play.
No matter what your role effect has (other than guaranteeing your kill succeeds, which in that case the kill CAN NOT be on ETL), there's no reason to do anything to whoever you're shooting, of course, unless it's a vig like ETL is, but it's like scum would've known that N1, also scum couldn't have possibly known ETL would survive the shot.

There is.
Assume with me scum do the “stupid” play and Jungle is scum and they shot ETL and gave the quest to ETL. They would be setting up Jungle for the deep game. “Oh look here, Jungle clearly can’t be scum”

Then instead they were forced to adjust when ETL survived. Jungle made up a bogus bullshit quest to eat up the entire day. They said it would day cop so it wouldn’t be questioned.

Killing RC and giving him the quest silences further investigation into what it actually does. Furthermore if it is a quest that requires completion of a task why would Jungle have to submit the name again?

I think scum flail was day two and we ate it up like candy.

[OnTheMark]

Then you should be scumreading Jungle

Why?

Because Jungle is who would shoot you over RC. And you never publically disagreed with that assessment and had a long ass time to change it.

[OnTheMark]

Secondly this game isn’t “Hey let’s quest all day!”

Fallout is NOT a team game.

It’s about the player interacting with different factions with different agendas.

We have zero proof of what the quest system actually does.

If Jungle was town why didn’t Kaede get the quest? <<

[OnTheMark]

Really though, I think Alchemist has been in the background all game and makes a decent scum pick. Still thinking about voting jungle

in case their quest gave scum something

Impossible, the quest says "to help out the settlement", i mean that doesnt sound like the quest would be something bad for us, otherwise the mod is misleading and this would be a bastard game.

Settlements are NAI in fallout.

Look at the first post.

Settlement doesn’t equal town

And RC’s is different

[OnTheMark]

Ouroboros, Deacon,

Commonwealth Limited Neighborizer Conditional Shared Tracker

, was killed Night 2.

Spoiler: Role PM

Deacon

Welcome to Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition!

You are

Deacon (

Commonwealth Limited Neighborizer Conditional Shared Tracker

)

.

Master of disguise, Deacon works as a member of Railroad to free the runaway synths.

---

Abilities:

• Recruit:
  During the night, you may recruit a player to your neighborhood. You can only invite up to two members. If for any reason one of your member dies, you may recruit again up to the maximum members.
  
• Railroad:
  Recruiting a member awards you with 1-shot track for the neighborhood. This ability is a shared ability and the majority of the neighborhood must agree to a target. Recruiting the member of the
  Institute
  will permanently compromise this ability and you will get "no visit" result for all investigations, regardless of your target's actual actions.

---

Win Condition

• Eliminate all who are sided with the
  Institute

Day 3 deadline: (expired on 2018-06-09 23:05:14)

Ouroboros received a quest to help out the settlements!

Settlements PLURAL.

Not singular.

Plural

[OnTheMark]

There is no way GiF allows continuous day copping which means RC’s would be notably different.

Why not give that “different” thing if it is protown to the IC?

[OnTheMark]

Settlements PLURAL.

Not singular.

Plural

It's still not the INSTITUTE tho.

Right. It’s NAI.

All it is is that Jungle is a LOUD quest giver.

More than likely just a loud fruit vendor with flavor text of a quest.

[OnTheMark]

I literally just said why.

And if you have a track that you can use on someone why not give it to you.

If it investigates you that makes sense

But Jungle never bothered to say what it was.

Scum Jungle is flailing

[OnTheMark]

Then you should be scumreading Jungle

Why?

Because Jungle is who would shoot you over RC.

Yes this was Jingle's theory. You will have to ask him for the reasoning there. I said I thought if we were shot, it was probably RC because I was tin-foil-hat-scumreading the slot at the time. Are you saying you agree that the only plausible players who would choose to shoot us would be RC or Jungle? << I don't believe this to be a logical idea.

And you never publically disagreed with that assessment and had a long ass time to change it.

"publicly disagree"? He's my hydra partner. I chose him because I trust his reads to compliment my own. We have a PT where we discuss our reads. Why the fuck would I "publicly disagree" with something that doesn't need to be disagreed with? I was townreading Jungle. This has not changed. All of this is accessible in our ISO. None of this has been contradictory. You are failing to do research and coming up with bullshit spam for no reason. Figure out and then get back to me.

I'm not going to continue saying the same things over and over. It's really exhausting and annoying. Until and unless you have something new to talk to me about, I'm ignoring you.

ETL

p-edit: There are multiple settlements in Fallout. All of them are aligned with the commonwealth. All of them are aligned with the sole survivor, who is aligned with the commonwealth. None of them are aligned with the Institute, the Railroad, or even the Minutemen

Nuka Cola expansion has horrible ones that aren’t good aligned.

Minutemen are aligned with the settlements.

Like why you messing up this bad?

Pedit I am but that won’t hapoen.

[OnTheMark]

And if you have a track that you can use on someone why not give it to you

It would track the person that completes the quest, not that i could give a track to someone.
That is if we believe what Jungle said D2, and even then, I don't see anything about that role that seems scum motivated, ETL's play around the quest doesn't seem scum motivated either, they really REALLY tried hard to get it completed.

All I see here is you trying to discredit logical conclusions coz they dont align with your reads and/or you're scum.

Omg

I like cannot believe this. Jungle doesn’t even tell us what the quest is supposed to do.

I like legit don’t know how this is happening.

What kind of “quest” in mafia requires a person to resubmit hey it was done in the original person.

The mod could just check.

[OnTheMark]

oh my god you are a liability to town, OTM.

So are you. And you have a gun.

[OnTheMark]

Jungle doesn’t even tell us what the quest is supposed to do.

Jungle told us on D2 that the quest given to ETL would publicly daycop ETL today if the quest was succesfully completed yesterday.
I don't see the point in telling us what the quest given to ouroboros would do if it's of similar nature.

I do.

Because there is no way GiF as a mod says
“here keep copping people as long as votes fall on a sunrise on a Tuesday”

If he did Jungle would be a liability and dead.

[OnTheMark]

Simple

If Jungle is town and his quest is always “day cop” target then that is an infinite cop.
If it isn’t then Jungle would have told us what it was or hunted or something

And ETL just conveniently doesn’t talk with his hydra partner.

Jungle is scum. And the fact you don’t want to follow it simply because it’s me with the arguments is troubling.

[OnTheMark]

When you’re seriously proposing town has an infinite day cop and a slow cop I tend to think anyone proposing that exists in a GiF game and fails to understand how badly that could go has an ulterior motive yes.

[OnTheMark]

When you’re seriously proposing town has an infinite day cop.

LITERALLY NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

Anyone saying Jingle is town who is daycopping people is

That’s the entire argument why it isn’t given to Kaede.

If it isn’t an investigative why not give it to Kaede?

[OnTheMark]

When you’re seriously proposing town has an infinite day cop.

LITERALLY NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

Anyone saying Jungle is town who is daycopping people is

That’s the entire argument why it isn’t given to Kaede.

If it isn’t an investigative why not give it to Kaede?

Fuck autocorrect

[OnTheMark]

100% luck, 0% skill

when all ins are free you're bound to river eventually. whatever

--

Impossibear has received a quest, the quest was given by me. they need to perform the following actions today to complete the quest:

1. be vote #3 on a wagon today that reaches L-1, this L-1 wagon must be reflected in the vote count
2. be the hammer on today's lynch

successfully performing the above actions will complete the quest and allow them to be publically daycopped tomorrow so we get another IC or confscum.

quests changes every night and GIF will tell me what the new quest is

The original quest is claimed to be a daycop. With me so far?

[OnTheMark]

The original quest is claimed to be a daycop. With me so far?

yep. Do you see the last line?

quests changes every night and GIF will tell me what the new quest is

In your mind, what does this mean?

ETL

Getting there.

Now this new thing it changes to:

It is either an investigative or it isn’t yes?

[OnTheMark]

If it is an investigative then you have a continuously copping quest giver which breaks the rule of mafia.

If it isn’t an investigative why not give it to Kaede?

[OnTheMark]

It is either an investigative or it isn’t yes?

The role as a whole or the quest for that day?

If you believe the role as a whole is either an investigative or a non-investigative, I'm going to say you are incorrect in that assumption. A JOAT (Jack of All Trades) can include investigative and non-investigative actions. Jungle's role fits that description.

Now if you are talking about just the quest for the day, yes, ok. That's fine. That still doesn't mean "Jungle is a forever cop". What it means is "Jungle has a cop for that day's quest."

ETL

I am talking about today and it’s ramifications going forward.

We have a confirmed town tracker flipped that may or may not be impacted by scum.

We have a claimed slow cop.
We have a claimed daycop on day one.
We have Kaede’s ability
We have Maria R who claimed an investigative on Dunnstral.

Do you see the issue?

[OnTheMark]

Prod dodge. This is the second day in a row we don’t do the right thing. Legit having trouble bringing myself to care.

[OnTheMark]

Prod dodge I will catch up properly tomorrow.

What I have read OTM is barely scratching the surface on motives behind anything and needs to think more about whats actually happening. Maria is still scum. Ram is still scum

This is still scum too.

My flip will prove that.

[OnTheMark]

Why Jungle can't be 4th member? 3 man mafia makes no sense

The idea that JUNGLE is pun here who claimed the powers he did and deliberately sabotaged them is absolutely flagrantly ridiculous. It doesn't happen. I'm sure someone intent on lynching JUNGLE will try to strawman this by linking to some game with a pun player whose actions had a passing resemblance to this game.

Doesn't matter. JUNGLE does not take this path as pun. Additionally, JUNGLE targeted Ouroboros with the quest for today, as proven by the moderator.

If JUNGLE were pun trying to deliberately sabotage their actions, they would target a player that they knew would live, such that they could get town credit while still enacting a pro-scum agenda.

However, targeting the nightkill only serves to make JUNGLE look

worse

. At a time where people are already inclined to lynch JUNGLE.

To put it together. JUNGLE, if pun, knew that as a consequence of his actions, players going into today would be suspicious of him, due to Impossibear not being conftown as promised. If he were pun, he would need to take an action to alleviate this. He would need to take an action that would make people want to spare him for longer. Yet if he were pun, then he targeted Ouroboros knowing he was targeting the player that would die. This sets him up for a lynch.

Far more likely is that it was an honest mistake, and that he had no way of predicting Ouroboros would be the pun's nightkill.

Or who is 4th then?

This, I do not know for sure. Given your early content, it remains possible to be you. However, given my overall feelings combined with your interactions, I would be more inclined to say it is another leftover.

As there is only one other leftover, process of elimination would indicate to me that davesaz is pun.

You’re missing a step that runs counter to this:

Jungle scum gives the quest to ETL and scum target ETL so Jungle doesn’t have to explain.
Jungle makes up shit when caught.
Jungle scum gives to Ouroboros who scum kill
Jungle scum makes up lie as to what it was only when prompted.
A second potential IC and infinite BP really?

Just...no.

[OnTheMark]

I don't believe Jungle is scum.

UNVOTE:

Sorry Jingle, we're not doing that today.

Can we bring Jingle back?

[OnTheMark]

Too many words :/

[OnTheMark]

Regarding Jungle:

Punreader's analysis assumes a: that scum!Jungle wouldn't gambit, b: that town would inevitably lynch scum!Jungle after these events making it a low chance of success.

I don't know who Jungle is and make it a policy not to dig. If someone wants to play as an alt and has the discipline to stay in character, more power to them. So I don't know if a gambit is likely or unlikely, I just know it can't be ruled out. The PLAN might have been for Impossibear to die, and scum!Jungle is then functionally a loud fruit vendor at very little risk. Not claiming it loses the possibility of using it at all. So claiming an outlandish quest might be a gambit to salvage the role's usefulness.

Having a competent mod design a quest with that degree of complexity and then allowing it to fail on a technicality when the intent was clear stretches credibility a little. I suppose a mod could be that hardcore and town!Jungle could make that mistake, but it seems very unlikely.

Moving on to the question of whether town would inevitably punish scum!Jungle with a lynch -- it seems that WIFOM might be king here and we might not do so simply on the "mistake".
But that is very short sighted, to excuse it as human error and not a possible gambit. If we look at Jungle

outside the quest info

, what would the read be? I maintain that the read should be scum based on the evidence.

+1

[OnTheMark]

I've mentioned this before in other games, but I haven't been keeping solid track on who I've seen as scum and who I haven't. So I don't know if I have seen Nero lurk as scum.
I can say conclusively that the argumentative and pushy Nero that I've seen as town was not present in this game. And Projectmatt's posting hasn't struck me as town.

I would be willing to accept a Projectmatt lynch if necessary, but would prefer that we resolve Jungle. If we allow scum!Jungle to push another fruitless outlandish quest on town it might damage us beyond repair. Am I wrong to think it's within the mod's range to include something tantalizing as a way to punish a greedy town? In the unlikely event Jungle is really town, it would be bad to lose the potential upside, but I can't see the game being designed so that town needs the quest to win. Furthermore if Jungle is town and the quest is powerful, why would scum leave the quest giver alive?

+1

[OnTheMark]

If you

really

wanted Jungle to be resolved you'd give him a chance to prove himself via succesfully using his role instead of pushing for his lynch.

He already had that chance and didn’t do it.

[OnTheMark]

For the record, here's my list of TRs, not in any specific order.

Ankamius
matt
kokichi
OTM
impossibear (pending clearance tomorrow)
jungle (pending confirmation of quest)
alchemist
wilky

Even then that's a smaller list that i would like...

You were testing him pending confirmation of the quest.

So now you’re just gonna test him again?

[OnTheMark]

This reads more like you just don’t want to go down MY suggestions more than even listening to yourself.

The quest thing tore apart day two and if we let it continue Jungle if scum will make up something that will destroy d4.
And if he’s town it will probably have the same effect.

To be frank I would rather play mafia. Powers from the quests be damned.

[OnTheMark]

You were testing him pending confirmation of the quest.

So now you’re just gonna test him again?

I was, but now I townread the slot, regardless of quest or not.

Then you should be able to answer dave’s Question of what in the play makes you townread the slot. Instead of dodging it and attacking those that scumread jungle.

A majority of your townblock scumreads jungle. Dave Half of the impossibear hydra for starters. Look at the people on the Matt wagon.

[OnTheMark]

To be frank I would rather play mafia. Powers from the quests be damned.

So your implication of "playing mafia" is "motivations be damned, gamestate be damned, everything is done for WIFOM and to look town"

My implication of playing mafia is to have discussions regarding townreads and scumreads
Not hop through vote hoops or twinkle on your toes three times.

[OnTheMark]

So tell me.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a town player made an honest mistake and it must without a doubt be a scum player trying to manipulate town.

Because a moderator doesn’t require a submit after.

Find me any action ever in any theme game at all

That requires player A submit to Player B and then people do something then Player A does something.

I just don’t think that is a thing. It’s more likely a fruit vendor than a new type of action.

[OnTheMark]

Especially when an arguement isn’t made for them town. It’s just much more likely they are scum.

[OnTheMark]

And I already explained how punreader’s argument is bad.

And I explained the scum motivation.

I don’t want to go around in circles with you.

Please talk about how Jungle is a townread without using the quest.

[OnTheMark]

There's literally no logic behind those actions.
From YOUR point of view Dave should be close to confirmed scum, yet you're willing to follow dave's shading just because Jungle made a mistake, a mistake scum are capitalizing on no doubt. What a better way to get rid of a JOAT than via by lynch because they screwed up?

I already said if scum have a poisoner Dave can be town.

Because Dave had a possibility of being town if there is a poisoner.

And I don’t think Jungle made a mistake.

We’ve been over this.

Please stop going in circles and address your townread’s question.

[OnTheMark]

So tell me.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a town player made an honest mistake and it must without a doubt be a scum player trying to manipulate town.

Because a moderator doesn’t require a submit after.

Find me any action ever in any theme game at all

That requires player A submit to Player B and then people do something then Player A does something.

I just don’t think that is a thing. It’s more likely a fruit vendor than a new type of action.

This doesn't actually indicate anything btw, this isn't exactly a normal role in normal circumstances.

Yes loud scum fruit vendor is.

Mini Normal 1900 modded by Mastina.

Which is why if Jungle is scum go after punreader next

[OnTheMark]

If anything you should be raising eyebrows at dave wanting Jungle dead.
OH i know! now you're gonna say that Jungle's being bused by dave! OF COURSE!, because they are already down by 1, and are just gonna hard bus now for towncred when there's already a pseudo guilty on them, OF COURSE! THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO SURVIVE.

I am ignoring you until you answer Dave’s question

[OnTheMark]

Do you know that GIF would handle it that way?

It=?

[OnTheMark]

It's fine by me if you ignore me anyways.
I can just go ahead and do the same, because your logic operates under the guise of "Scum would do literally anything, scum win con be damned", which is something I 100% disagree with, and is something I literally hate being used as an argument.

Okay then.

Because I don’t see how it’s harmful to scum to have town waste time never scumhunting.

[OnTheMark]

I’ll write it out later.

I’d rather do my job.

[OnTheMark]

Prod dodging til Saturday

[OnTheMark]

If you're gonna argue that scum was using the quest to waste town's time, then you gotta find suspects that helped town waste time by not helping with said quest.
I want names.

Working on this explanation now.

[OnTheMark]

see i don't want to push ETL anymore because she's doing the exact thing that RC does as town (and sometimes as scum) which is literally

"you are scumreading me and you are trying to piss me off and I can't stand a push on me and im so mad so if you push me i will powerlynch you"

I don't want to deal with this then end up having ETL town


i'm still down to MANwagon verylazy

sometimes even the best scum players get unlucky or get investigated

THEN INVESTIGATE ME.

will do, cupcake


we were just gushing over how good you are as scum! join the party!

First point: Jungle’s ISO before the announcement of the Day One Cop.

Jungle is 100% adamant about ETL being scum.

[OnTheMark]

Actually you know what I genuinely think that making a case is -equity here and that just focusing on core points and yelling at people to vote Ventriloquist is going to have better results so

disregarding a MAN veto is -equity for the entire town

Treating this as a guilty on Ventriloquists scumflip. bye.

[OnTheMark]

Now, assume overnight you have a RC who is dead set against your slot and you’re scum. You either have to give RC something better to look at or you have to eat the lynch. Considering scum did not have a proper lynch to spare (as 2XLarge theme is insane) this meant distracting RC away from his likely guilty. This means getting into mechanics discussions which RC hates like the plague because then it’s really hard for him to annoy people til he can read them.

[OnTheMark]

VOTE: Real Men Only Jungle

Vote goes here for now

Don't put dunnstral above 4-5 votes.

Keep in mind RC kept his promise of that tunnel.

So scum likely knowing RC was town distracted him.

[OnTheMark]

100% luck, 0% skill

when all ins are free you're bound to river eventually. whatever

--

Impossibear has received a quest, the quest was given by me. they need to perform the following actions today to complete the quest:

1. be vote #3 on a wagon today that reaches L-1, this L-1 wagon must be reflected in the vote count
2. be the hammer on today's lynch

successfully performing the above actions will complete the quest and allow them to be publically daycopped tomorrow so we get another IC or confscum.

quests changes every night and GIF will tell me what the new quest is

This is Jungle’s first post.

Keep in mind this doesn’t have any reads any sort of post or any sort of guidance. Furthermore he refuses to scumread or townread or talk about the wilky slot which also claimed cop.

If I was town and spent literally the entire day on a plan, I have three alarms and a fucking reminder to submit correctly. His entire day was focused on this plan. You’re expecting me to believe he just made a mistake?

[OnTheMark]

VOTE: dunnstral

the prereqs are in no means easy. they're clear and straightforward but from experience n00bs (or scum) will enjoy fucking it up

Assuming Jungle is scum Dunnstral is spewed town.

[OnTheMark]

Now, assume overnight you have a RC who is dead set against your slot and you’re scum. You either have to give RC something better to look at or you have to eat the lynch. Considering scum did not have a proper lynch to spare (as 2XLarge theme is insane) this meant distracting RC away from his likely guilty. This means getting into mechanics discussions which RC hates like the plague because then it’s really hard for him to annoy people til he can read them.

Now assume that the slot is town, was wrong on vent and saw that ETL was hard defending that slot the previous day.

I am not done with my case I am phone posting as my laptop died.

[OnTheMark]

impossibear's cooperation to get themselves cleared makes them obvious town now anyway

though i already figured that out yesterday. late but still at least on day 1 and ahead of the pack

If he figured out ETL was a town player why Day cop him? This seems rather odd and in contradiction to all of Jungle’s previous posts.

A day cop on one of the lurkers would have been much more useful than someone he supposedly figured out was town on day one. It’s like he is bragging for cred

Kaede I will say “All done!” When done.

[OnTheMark]

I'm here but I need to connect with Jingle. We are in opposite time zones so that will happen later today. Can confirm we received a quest but got no details of what it was - only that we got a quest. Hoping RMOJ is being honest here cuz the confirmation would be fantastic. I do have serious reason to believe we won't make it to tomorrow though, unfortunately.

Flavor-wise, I think I know what that means for RMOJ. Most annoying character in the game but he might as well be conf-town.

ETL

At this point ETL tries to make a point of flavor making RMOJ conf town. Not anything else. ETL is intentionally trying to bring us into the mechanics pigeon hole.

Pedit you’re asking me to give a case and I am doing so it would just be nice to not be interrupted every post.

And sorry if it seems like you aren’t allowed to post I would just like for you to read it all at once to see the scope.

[OnTheMark]

UNVOTE:

RC can even pick wagon comp for the wagon to mitigate chances of scum being able to quickhammer. Refusal to cooperate is distinctly antitown and thus a scumclaim, we get the first half of our requirements out of the way, and we don't have to let this quest influence the day game for the rest of the day.

Then we avoid L-1 until ETL or I can quickhammer. It makes it almost impossible for scum to manipulate this against us.

Hey butthead... it has to be reflected in the VC for it to count. How else is GIF gonna confirm we completed the quest...

ETL

See here again ETL does it.

[OnTheMark]

punreader- PR

Can confirm this. I am a PR, but unfortunately, a one ill-suited to my talents. The use comes in getting us off of mylo by either attracting the nightkill or predicting it; the former is impossible and the latter is doubtful. I am indeed a hider that can hide behind pun. My role specifies I am a "normal hider, modified to not die behind pun", but I am waiting to hear back from the mod on what constitutes being a "normal" hider.

My role does not specify if I can be tracked.
My role does not specify if I can be roleblocked.
My role does not specify if I show up on a watch report if a watcher targets my target. (I would assume so, but not all mods do.)
My role does not specify if an investigative targeting me gets no result, a result on me, a result on my target, or a result on both my target and I.
My role does not specify if an investigative targeting my target gets a result on me, a result on my target, or a result on both my target and I.

I can tell you Tchill submitted no action N1.

Here punreader goes through more mechanics bullshit.

Pedit and I am explaining please let me.

[OnTheMark]

VOTE: wilky

im just gonna sheep what seems like decent logic.

off the past few pages i agree with the reasoning behind the wilky wagon.

Tchill then hides back quite satisfied with how things are going then just disappears.

Punreader has done zilch to help the slot as well.

TChill is sidelines scum.

[OnTheMark]

The quest itself is specifically a mechanism built to drag out the game.

ETL was majorly townread at the end of day one.

There was zero reason to day cop him.

Jungle’s reads read like manufactured bullshit designed to have everyone go “look at this shiny” “look at how shiny it is” while being fundamentally useless.

[OnTheMark]

I can save you time and tell you that the only one who vocally expressed intent to sabotage the quest was ouroboros, oh and look, he flipped town.
The only reason the quest took so long was because ETL wanted a specific set of people voting their target to prevent any potential quickhammers, looks like that was a town reasoning.

Seems like it's town who wasted time on their own, not the scum's plan, if the scum wanted the quest to fail they could've just hammered someone and then play dumb, instead of this convoluted BS.

It’s not vocal opposition

It’s about removing scimhunting

I legit give up

You’re just more intent on tearing me down than listening

My pool is (Jungle ETL Punreader and Alchemist21) if none of those flip redirector or bus driver then wilky.

[OnTheMark]

He was til at the end of day said ETL was a townread.
Why cop a townread everyone else does?

It’s only to keep up appearances.

[OnTheMark]

He was til at the end of day said ETL was a townread.
Why cop a townread everyone else does?

It’s only to keep up appearances.

Announcing a townread on his scumread that he is going to try and publicly daycop to push mafia away from night killing him?

Again, I ask you to dig deeper down than very surface read material. Your not looking at any motivation or logic.

I am looking at motivation. It’s just not the answer you want to hear.

The quest looks like made up bullshit to get people to do shit with the day and not hunt.

The simplest answer is almost always right.

[OnTheMark]

Punreader has done zilch to help the slot as well.

Oh really?

Spoiler: I suppose these are nothing, then?

However, if you're itching for analysis right now without reading anything, a freebie: most of the punteam bussed.

I submit as proof both the pun lynch fairly early, and that you haven't managed to lynch pun since then with a significantly longer D2. That would suggest you're looking in the wrong places. If you're looking off the wagon, that would explain things quite nicely. I'd need far better grounding in the game to be able to name specific names.

Tchill13 was very scummy... but I want to see what punreader does to see if they can reverse my read.

Overall impression from your reads is that almost all of your strong town, off of the reasoning you have given, are slots I'd be

concerned

about. In contrast, your normal townreads look fairly likely to be accurate. I lack the information to give feedback on those below the townread line off of your one post.

Overall impression from your reads is that almost all of your strong town, off of the reasoning you have given, are slots I'd be concerned about.

Why?

Your description of their play is describing things I would immediately be severely cautious about coming from the players in question.

Kaede- IC
Jungle- Weird Joat
Wilky- Miller Slow Cop
Maria- Some Kind of Investigative
OTM- Weird RB
Tchill- Non weak hider
Us- BP Vig w/ unspecified modifier
Flipped: Ability Swapper
For setup spec reference, cause I'm gonna want pun to do the same thing when they get their ass in here.

Ankamius
Ouroboros (AnonymousGhost + RadiantCowbells)
Ramcius
Alchemist21
Dunnstral
davesaz- NEG UTIL
Kokichi Oma- Unclaimed
projectmatt- Unclaimed
Wraith- Unclaimed

Well quick analysis would be that there's probably 2-3 pun in the unclaimed with 0-1 pun in the claimed. My role can act as a self-protective, your role has a protective, OnTheMark's roleblock gives a third source of killstopping power. This seems reasonable from town, but I would become suspect of an additional killstopper claim.

Kaede as an IC, the ability to get a second alignment confirmation, the miller slow cop, and the investigative is a little on the heavy side in terms of investigating. It's possible there's a pun in there, but not guaranteed. I would definitely lynch in there if we had an additional investigative claim.

I'd need to see the whole set of roles in the game for more thorough analysis. It'd be Impossible before then. Do bear with me.

Ventriloquist (10):

Ouroboros,

ManWithNoName

, MariaR (Investigative), Wraith, Alchemist21,

Kaede Akamatsu

, davesaz (negative utility), Tchill13, wilky (Miller Slow Cop), Ankamius

If I'm honest, the only names here which don't immediately look town are Ouroboros and MariaR. Outside chance, Ankamius. But I'll let this analysis sit in the fridge a while and cool off while I go read.

We have too much power claimed and a flipped scum. That means strong townreads outside of the claimed power roles are disproportionally more likely to be accurate.

Respectfully, I disagree. I strongly believe the unclaimed would contain a minimum of one pun, if not two. I would expect this game to be almost, but not quite, role madness. I'd expect 2-4 vanillas in the game total (let's say 3), including the one flipped already. Everyone else I would anticipate holding a role.

If you treat the game as role madness, you use a different metric to read game balance than a metric for a game that is predominantly vanilla. No matter which three names are pun, the game fundamentally

cannot

be predominantly vanilla. Ergo, the unclaimed aren't more cleared; they're more suspicious.

Kaede- IC
Jungle- Weird Joat
Wilky- Miller Slow Cop
Maria- Some Kind of Investigative
OTM- Weird RB
Tchill- Non weak hider
Us- BP Vig w/ unspecified modifier
Flipped: Ability Swapper
For setup spec reference, cause I'm gonna want pun to do the same thing when they get their ass in here.

Ankamius
Ouroboros (AnonymousGhost + RadiantCowbells)
Ramcius
Alchemist21
Dunnstral
davesaz- NEG UTIL
Kokichi Oma- Unclaimed
projectmatt- Unclaimed
Wraith- Unclaimed

Well quick analysis would be that there's probably 2-3 pun in the unclaimed with 0-1 pun in the claimed. My role can act as a self-protective, your role has a protective, OnTheMark's roleblock gives a third source of killstopping power. This seems reasonable from town, but I would become suspect of an additional killstopper claim.

Kaede as an IC, the ability to get a second alignment confirmation, the miller slow cop, and the investigative is a little on the heavy side in terms of investigating. It's possible there's a pun in there, but not guaranteed. I would definitely lynch in there if we had an additional investigative claim.

I'd need to see the whole set of roles in the game for more thorough analysis. It'd be Impossible before then. Do bear with me.

Extrapolating from my conclusions thusfar, it would be fair to state I would not lynch most of the claimed roles at this juncture. Outside chance of MariaR but I wouldn't be comfortable concluding that so hastily; I'm not married to the concept.

I would lynch in the unclaimed players. Off of description of play, I'm not too concerned about Wraith or Alchemist21. (I'll concoct more tangible analysis later.) I'm also not so concerned about Dunnstral. (He's a read I don't need to put much effort into before getting dun.)
Inversely, off of description of play (not to mention the D1 lynch) I would be rather concerned about Ouroboros and projectmatt.
I wouldn't be confident he'd flip pun, but I'd lynch Ramicus if it came to it which seems to be what you want to do anyway.

Still, these are without reading the game so we'll have to see what changes when I've actually read D1.

Inversely, off of description of play (not to mention the D1 lynch) I would be rather concerned about Ouroboros and projectmatt.

The implication here is that you specifically scumread me

more

for having lynched scum D1, am I wrong?

I would say you are more right than wrong. 'Scumread' implies a level of read on you I wouldn't confidently say I have. I literally haven't read the game; it would be hard to have a punread of any real strength.

I would say it's more that I have an idea of where I wouldn't look and where I would look, and you're in the area I would look. Looking there doesn't make you pun, in of itself. It just means I'm looking at you as a pun candidate. Your application is on file and being processed; for all I know, when I read the game, it could be thrown into the shredder. But for the moment, it is being reviewed.

Dave Wraith ProjectMatt Ank RC ETL Kokichi should have all the scums I think

@Pun
What do you think is right? Wrong? And maybe?

I would off of Ankamius's description think Wraith is wrong.
I would think Dave, outside chance at Ank (otherwise a wrong), severely outside chance of ETL (most likely a wrong), and Kokichi qualify as 'Maybe'.

I wouldn't go so far as to say ProjectMatt and RC are 'right', but they are focal points of mine.

Ask me again after I read D1; it's too early to really be certain.

That's not the question I asked.

Not precisely, no, but it's the most accurate answer you'll receive. You asked a question expecting it to be a yes or no question but it wasn't actually something I could answer with a 'yes' or a 'no'.

Scumread implies a level of read on you I don't have without having read the game. I have an idea where I wouldn't look and where I would look. You spearheading the D1 lynch in the way I am hearing it described is one of the areas I would look. That doesn't make you pun; it simply means I am looking at you as a pun candidate.

I'm also going to hardclaim miller here and the miller has a flavour name too so i'd like to put the question to dave on what's the flavour name of your miller role.

Until then
VOTE: Davesaz

While the mod of this game is bold enough to brave the pitchforks of a pun miller, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out this is a town entrance. I especially buy the townslip:

So we're just assuming that safe claims are given now?

Yay!

VOTE: Davesaz

Because I don't trust sculptures.

Even without Ankamius's description, I sense a spark of town here.

Bringing out the Roy I LIKE THIS GAME ALREADY
VOTE: Kaede
Srs vote
Pedit: Ew.

I'm not quite sure what I should be Making this out to be.

Oh, is that a thing with GiF games?
I am willing to reveal flavor as requested, but would like to hear opinions on whether it's actually helpful and on whether the other miller claim should be required to do the same (presumably yes on first question implies absolutely yes on 2nd but that's just my opinion).

Certainly not a rock-hard townread I can tell you that.

Trust other people? What is this blasphemy?

I'm beginning to understand why people would want to ram this lynch through.

I'm not getting the Wilky hate. Like at all. Why in the world would scum fakeclaim miller to 1v1 a useless powerrole. Everyone on that wagon gets -10 town cred.

What does seem possible to me is that Dave fakeclaims miller and then CC'd.

vote:Dave

While the read here is understandable enough, I am tempted to Nero my vision down to a tunnel and just keep calling the slot pun.

Maybe I'm reading myself into you but that's what it feels like to me.

The reason I feel pun bussed can also be seen in another telltale sign:

VC 1.07

Tchill13 (1):

verylazy

wilky (1):

Ramcius

MariaR (1):

Nero Cain

Ventriloquist (10):

Ouroboros, ManWithNoName, MariaR, Wraith, Alchemist21, Kaede Akamatsu, davesaz, Tchill13, wilky, Ankamius

ManWithNoName (1):

Ventriloquist

Wraith (1):

Impossibear

Impossibear (1):

Dunnstral

davesaz (1):

hebichan

verylazy (1):

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

There is literally no counterwagon to the pun lynch. None, whatsoever, even remotely. There isn't even so much as a single wagon with two votes on it. If pun did not bus, if there were no pun involved in this lynch, then why would this be the case? It is of course

possible

for the pun to simply have been scattered and lack coordination, especially if lacking daychat. (I have reached the part in the game where that question was asked, but not where it was answered.)

But that is literally the only possible alternative to pun bussing.

If you instead assume pun did bus, then which names are the most likely to have done so? I don't see what really looks like what can be considered a solid pun block on there. If there's not a solid pun block on the lynch, yet pun bussed, the implication from it would be that the pun bussing was someone whose position carried disproportionate strength.

This is why I stated what I did.

You spearheading the D1 lynch in the way I am hearing it described is one of the areas I would look. That doesn't make you pun; it simply means I am looking at you as a pun candidate.

The evidence I have points to this as a feasible conclusion.
It is not the only conclusion.
The pun could all be scattered in various names.
The pun could be in various positions on the wagon.
The pun could be in a bloc on the wagon.

Those are all alternative possibilities to the conclusion the pun bussing was someone whose bus held strength. They are also viable. If I said that from the end of day votecount the evidence hard pointed to the conclusion of pun bussing with it being a hard pusher, that would be a lie because the other options remain, currently neither proven or disproven.

I also maintain by setup speculation that this game should be power role heavy and that of the roles claimed thusfar, few are notably suspect. An opinion which does clash with Jingle's apparently.

However, I also hold no doubt the town is mostly on the right track. I believe there are some potential oversights that my insight has shed light on. I believe that there are a few incorrect assumptions going around and a few data points which people overlooked that I saw. That doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make them wrong. It does mean that I feel they should have a closer look at things, while I take a first look at those very same things.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilky has done research and is relying on the miller claim because he realises the host has done this before, especially since he chose to highlight that it wasn't far fetched for there to be 2 millers again. As Alchemist said though, this is relying on some pretty niche assumptions so I'm not buying it just yet.

I'm pretty sure that any puppeteer can tell you why this particular pulling of the strings projects willky as town.

While many reads require little explanation (e.g. Ramicus),

I don't get how town Nero can get "oh 3 people claim neg utility so scum has to be fake claiming" without thinking if that's the case town has to have some great stuff or scum are underpowered etc etc.
Scum nero thinking that and using it as an agenda to push something makes a lot more sense though imo.

This is a genuine point I feel a particular need to emphasize. The riaR end of the post is what you're looking for; Nero's agenda matches what I'd expect from a pun player. The slot is now projectmatt, if I'm not mistaken.

The OMGUS is also uncharacteristic of a town Nero. He's usually the one

being

OMGUSed.

Though that's not perfect and things start to fall apart balance wise in role madness games like this

I've questioned whether to bring this up or not but ultimately I suppose I'll take the risk. Dunn is in the unclaimed pool, but if everyone was paying attention, y'stral should have noticed he accidentally slipped being a PR here. That is thus an additional PR in the pool of players holding PRs, and consequentially, further evidence this game is role-heavy.

two town millers.

Not "two millers", two "town millers". Noted.

VC 1.01

Ventriloquist (2):

davesaz, hebichan

Ouroboros (1):

Alchemist21

Nero Cain (1):

Impossibear

Tchill13 (1):

verylazy

Kaede Akamatsu (1):

Dunnstral

MariaR (1):

Ramcius

davesaz (1):

wilky

wilky (5):

Ouroboros,

Kaede Akamatsu

,

ManWithNoName

, MariaR, Ankamius

WOW. There is

DEFINITELY

scum in this group. Make this the short-list for D1 lynch or N1 investigations.

Since I've no intention to read the vast majority of D2, I would like to ask ETL if these stances still hold.

Clarify man with no name and Ventriloquist townreads please

I also read the whole thing and I hold interest in modern reads on Ouroboros and the Nero slot and if town why.

Yeah I could get on board with a Vent wagon too

Is it not possible Tchill has a jester role of some sort? Not suggesting an insta win but I don't see how his claim could be helpful to town otherwise.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilky has done research and is relying on the miller claim because he realises the host has done this before, especially since he chose to highlight that it wasn't far fetched for there to be 2 millers again. As Alchemist said though, this is relying on some pretty niche assumptions so I'm not buying it just yet.

Very suspicious post

Almost forgot, might as well elaborate on why I find this post very suspicious, because why not

He uses some rather

absurd

leaps in logic in two separate cases to paint a narrative picture about these two players, deliberately ignoring Occam's Razor in favor of stirring up WIFOM.

What is more likely? That TChill is running a Jester gambit? Or that TChill is fakeclaiming? TChill's was by far the least believable claim so far, and the most awkward (considering Kaede is mod-confirmed). By bringing up some a longshot possiblity, Vent is indirectly mounting a soft defense of TChill.

Simultaneously, he attempts to cast suspicion on Wilky with a similarly absurd leap. What's more likely? That Wilky is claiming Miller truthfully in a game run by a mod who apparently has a habit of these kinds of setup quirks? Or that Wilky is deliberately playing off mod meta to mount a roundabout fakeclaim gambit, with a claim that is by its nature instantly considered suspect by default?

I don't like that whatsoever. And after we get the VC I might consider switching my vote right now.

I'm quite serious when I say this is a stronger push than anything I've seen from RC. It's like comparing a slam-dunk case to a bunch of shade. He's just so much more solid.

I don't like Ventrilo's attempt push me, i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim", we still have Tchill/Wilky situation, Realmen asking to be burned with the fire, hebi's sheeping is unsettling, Nero is awkwardly silent

Hm, i guess i try

VOTE: Nero

others at least are talking

Okay so I know I said I didn't need to shove this up on you, but really, you should see this. Naming all of those people, especially Ventriloquist, and then going elsewhere for no reason.

Actually, Maria can't be faking tracker, so keeping cards close to the chest is unimportant.

Sure, it is a given she can't be faking it. Telling the truth does not indicate her alignment is town though.

I claim in the hood with rc

I claim that 3750 is a flagrant punclaim.

VOTE: ProjectMatt
with Wraith flipping green, his Wraith defense at the end of the day looks like TMI and attempt to get town cred, he didn't tried save him, he just didn't wanted to be on ML wagon

You are not wrong.

I will vote whichever of MariaR/projectmatt has a larger wagon. If both have equal wagons, my vote defaults to MariaR.

By proxy, you may remember this is calling Kokichi town.

Summary
MariaR is in a neighborhood with Dunn and Ouroboros created by Ouroboros.
That neighborhood also controls a tracker among all of them, track target must be agreed to by majority.
If there's 1 or more scum in the hood the track will always yield "didn't visit" regardless.
MariaR claims to track matt and getting "didn't visit"
matt confirms this.
wilky claims no result and blames OTM for it.
OTM says he targeted dave.

Alternative theory tying these together. MariaR is pun, and thus, regardless of whom was tracked, the result would be "didn't visit". projectmatt was selected (Ouroboros wanted it and MariaR knowing it could create a false negative went along with this) to falsely clear him as regardless of whether he took an action or not it would always display as him having not taken one due to MariaR's alignment being pun. willky's action failed because MariaR's role provided immunity to the investigation. (Alternatively, projectmatt has a blocking role and targeted willky.)

willky, Dunnstral, and OnTheMark are all town; MariaR and projectmatt completely messed up the town's actions.

Furthermore, JUNGLE is town who made a mistake.

HAS COMMON INTERESTS:

Kaede Akamatsu
Wilky
Dunnstral
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) (CAVEAT: Requires no serial killers as possible this game, which I believe from the wincon is the case)

HIGHLY LIKELY TOWN:

Ankamius
Alchemist21
hebichan/OnTheMark
verylazy/Kokichi Oma (CAVEAT: requires MariaR flipping pun)

LEFTOVERS:

Ramcius
davesaz

STRONG PUNREADS:

MariaR
Nero Cain/projectmatt

All of these are in my mind fairly self-explanatory, but I may need to unpack my process here a little so that everyone has a better understanding of these.

Why Jungle can't be 4th member? 3 man mafia makes no sense

The idea that JUNGLE is pun here who claimed the powers he did and deliberately sabotaged them is absolutely flagrantly ridiculous. It doesn't happen. I'm sure someone intent on lynching JUNGLE will try to strawman this by linking to some game with a pun player whose actions had a passing resemblance to this game.

Doesn't matter. JUNGLE does not take this path as pun. Additionally, JUNGLE targeted Ouroboros with the quest for today, as proven by the moderator.

If JUNGLE were pun trying to deliberately sabotage their actions, they would target a player that they knew would live, such that they could get town credit while still enacting a pro-scum agenda.

However, targeting the nightkill only serves to make JUNGLE look

worse

. At a time where people are already inclined to lynch JUNGLE.

To put it together. JUNGLE, if pun, knew that as a consequence of his actions, players going into today would be suspicious of him, due to Impossibear not being conftown as promised. If he were pun, he would need to take an action to alleviate this. He would need to take an action that would make people want to spare him for longer. Yet if he were pun, then he targeted Ouroboros knowing he was targeting the player that would die. This sets him up for a lynch.

Far more likely is that it was an honest mistake, and that he had no way of predicting Ouroboros would be the pun's nightkill.

Or who is 4th then?

This, I do not know for sure. Given your early content, it remains possible to be you. However, given my overall feelings combined with your interactions, I would be more inclined to say it is another leftover.

As there is only one other leftover, process of elimination would indicate to me that davesaz is pun.

First off:

Abilities:

• Bodyswap:
  At any point of the game, you may switch your role with your factional members by PMing the mod.

MOD: Say Player A started the game as the Factional Ability Swapper.
Say Player B started the game aligned with Player A and held the role of Hider.

Say Player A used the Factional Ability Swapper with Player B in the middle of D1.

If Player A was lynched on D1, what would they flip?
If Player B was lynched on D1, what would they flip?

I feel this is an important question which was neglected.

With that inquiry made,

HAS COMMON INTERESTS:

Kaede Akamatsu
Wilky
Dunnstral
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) (CAVEAT: Requires no serial killers as possible this game, which I believe from the wincon is the case)

HIGHLY LIKELY TOWN:

Ankamius
Alchemist21
hebichan/OnTheMark
verylazy/Kokichi Oma (CAVEAT: requires MariaR flipping pun)

LEFTOVERS:

Ramcius
davesaz

STRONG PUNREADS:

MariaR
Nero Cain/projectmatt

All of these are in my mind fairly self-explanatory, but I may need to unpack my process here a little so that everyone has a better understanding of these.

I decided to unpack my process here after all. From the top down:

Kaede Akamatsu:

Even if Kaede hadn't popped the IC, I'd have Kaede in my townbloc because this is solidly Kaede's towngame; Akam see it clear as day. The IC was frankly an unnecessary redundancy. But with it, at least this read requires no further explanation.

wilky:

While many suspect wilky, few fingering wilky can give any real reasons as to why. The few who have presented their evidence have a process I find absolutely loony. I keep on seeing the suspicion thrown and the cases there and none of it matches what I have witnessed; there is a disconnect between the suspicion on the slot and what the slot has actually given.

Because my own read on wilky's contribution is that wilky's content has been insanely town-motivated. His reads may be less than optimal and his style of posting may be such that players have an innate bias to punreading him, but when you look past the surface level and actually dig into the process he has outlined, the truth shines through. Sure, he may not have the best of reads, but bad reads doesn't make a player of his caliber pun. If you take the time to look at

how

he got those reads, the process is one which is

incredibly

hard to fake, especially for a player who is both relatively new and reasonably unskilled.

Dunnstral:

If you have the extensive game history with him that I do, you can instantly tell this is solidly his towngame. Additionally, he is soft-cleared by MariaR. Regardless of MariaR's alignment, this result is something we can trust; if MariaR is town, the result is accurate and if MariaR is pun, the result is likely still not on a punbuddy, making him town no matter what.

One of these two metrics in of itself may not be enough to townbin him. If it were just a townread off of meta, the townread could be wrong; if it were just the result from Maria, it would be possible she was attempting to falsely clear her punbuddy (though I personally think that manifested in a different manner as I have indicated previously). However, both in tandem is enough to hard-lock him as town; this is a Dunn deal.

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE:

I explained this before, but perhaps I can simplify; calling Jungle pun is a violation of occam's razor when you take motivations into mind.
To start, let's establish a baseline.

• The motivation of a town player is to further the gamestate such that town can identify who is town/pun and coordinate to lynch and shut down pun.
  
• The motivation of a pun player is to further the gamestate such that pun are positioned to control the town. In a typical pun player, this can be subdivided into three motivations in this approximate strength:
  1. Survive as pun
     
  2. Protect punbuddies
     
  3. Control the town
     
  4. Shut the town down
  (That is not the strength they should be in, but it is the strength pun players play them in.)

Then, with these motivations in mind, examine REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE's actions.
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE claimed a role which, if specific conditions were fulfilled, would reveal the alignment of a player.
As town, the motivation of this is self-evident; further the gamestate to identify who is town/pun.
As pun, this requires it to be a move for towncred, as a subset of survivalism.

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE then failed to deliver on this promise.
As town, the motivation of this is self-evident; it was a human error.
As pun, this move would require REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE deliberately putting himself in harm's way (violating survivalism), remove his influence from the town (violating controlling the town), for the sake of not giving away a piece of information not likely to directly harm him (not contributing to protecting a punbuddy), which doesn't shut the town down as much as it denies them a service he had the ability to deny them simply by never using it/never claiming it.

If he were pun who intended to not give the service to the town, why not just neglect to claim it or even never use it?
By claiming it and failing to use it properly, he is placing himself in harm's way for no visible benefit.

This is furthered by his usage on Ouroboros.
If REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE is town, the motivation for targeting Ouroboros is self-evident. Ouroboros is the same type of player as Impossibear; a competent hydra in a strong position to gamesolve, and REALMEN had no way of knowing Ouroboros would be the nightkill.

If REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE is pun, the motivation for targeting Ouroboros requires giving up on surviving (as targeting the nightkill will garner further suspicion beyond the already-existing suspicion to come for the failure on Impossibear, setting himself up for the lynch), controlling the town, and protecting punbuddies for the sake of denying the town a service.

Yes, it is possible for REALMEN to be pun, but it requires navigating a labyrinth of justifications.

The simpler answer is he's town.

---

Impossibear:

I believe they hold a killing power and used it N1 on ManWithNoName. I believe they genuinely think (or thought at the very least) they were the N1 nightkill, saved by their bulletproof. Combining these two is the main source of the townread, but I can also cite strong potential for them gamesolving. However, upon unpacking my thoughts, I want to have them trade places with OnTheMark on my readslist. On the OTM side, you'll see why when I get there, but here for Impossibear, the reason for the degenerated read is that there are some potential red flags to them attempting to lead us astray. I still maintain they are more likely town than not, but it's not impossibear for them to be pun.

---

Ankamius:

This is a read based largely on me liking her thought process. The things she is doing look town. However, some element is absent which prevents me from locking her in as town. (What that element is, I do not know.) Additionally, separately from that, we're not synchronizing as well as I'd expect; I would anticipate her being my mius. This gives further hesitance, similar to my Impossibear feelings. All that said, she's still my strongest read I don't have as locktown.

Alchemist21:

My initial townread came from Ankamius's description of his play, which was one of the things I felt was dead on the mark in her analysis. Since then, I've had further exposure in the form of the first 20 pages of the game plus reading his content since I have replaced in; everything I've witnessed backs that initial assessment, with the tinders of a townread strongly present. Conclusion, strongly likely to be town, but not locktown.

OnTheMark:

I had OnTheMark as a hard townread because of a combination of his role (and play surrounding it) and general feeling around him indicating him to be town. I was kept from locktowning OnTheMark because my reasons were role and general feeling; there was no tangible reason I could point to, which was troubling enough that I wasn't willing to make that call at the time. I lacked hard evidence to prove it.

However, the process of unpacking my thoughts revealed one to me which I can lock onto. OnTheMark can now be locktowned because of OnTheMark's modus operandi as pun. If you assume wilky is town, then his failed action is hard, absolute proof of OnTheMark's innocence. This may seem counterintuitive; why does wilky as town with a failed action prove rather than condemn OnTheMark?

Because we are assuming that if wilky is town, his failure comes from pun. And if the source of his failure comes from pun, then OnTheMark would never abide by it in the first place. OnTheMark would never, EVER accept forcing a deliberate 1v1 with a player. He prefers subtle sabotage, not flagrantly blatant sabotage. If he sabotages a town action, he attempts to leave no trace of it, and being a claimed blocker with wilky's action failing is in no way, shape, or form subtle.

If OnTheMark were pun, he'd know wilky's failed action would create the 1v1. Yes, he may get wilky lynched by entering into that 1v1. Yet after having done so, he automatically earns himself a vig, and if he miraculously dodges the bullet, a lynch. That, not taking into account the possibility he

loses

the 1v1, getting lynched today, thus creating a player that otherwise would be a mislynch who is instead not only conftown but an investigative to boot.

As a result, OnTHeMark would adamantly, vehemently oppose any plan which would create the 1v1. I can cite past games if need be, but he himself any many others should be able to vouch for this description as accurate; avoiding giving the town confscum/conftown in the form of him/wilky.

Since wilky's action did fail, and I do think wilky to be town, you can thus conclude OnTheMark is by proxy also town, and as a result earns Impossibear's spot in my locktown.

Kokichi Oma:

Instead of describing what I like first, I'll start by raising why I hesitate to call him town. I was incredibly suspicious of his predecessor, and he is a skilled enough pun player to fool even those that claim they can read him, causing them to falsely clear him as town. In spite of those factors, I actually

do

hold some faith in Kaede's townread there. Additionally, I don't believe Kokichi-Maria is pun theater.

What I DO believe is that Kokichi Oma can genuinely read MariaR. I also don't believe he is lying about the read as town. Furthermore, I feel he wouldn't falsely punread her if he were pun. If he were pun, I strongly believe his strategy would be to hard-defend her, to white knight her if need be, and he is not doing that here, which is promising.

Ramicus:

I've basically explained this read already, but in short, while I haven't liked much of his content, I do like some of his more recent contributions and I feel like his interactions are not viable as pun bussing. That head-to-head is simply suicidal and I don't buy it.

davesaz:

When I started reading, I had foreknowledge that davesaz's miller claim was apparently retracted/changed into 'some negative utility' at a later point. This would explain his rather dodgy early actions and play, so I was willing to write it off as null. I would say that I would normally be heavily inclined to punread him otherwise. There is literally nothing town about him, but if I'm honest, the most daving thing is simply POE;

someone

has to be the fourth and I think he's the best candidate. Also, there is the chance he was in fact blocked N1.

MariaR:

My punread here is four-fold: Dodgy, sketchy play; setup speculation plus night action results; personal experience with her meta; trusting in Kokichi Oma's personal meta experience. Each of these, I can explain in detail.

MariaR is basically actively lurking through this game; she is frequently and consistently failing to provide pertinent game content and I can cite many instances including prod dodges which are absent in other games she is a player in. There's a bunch of posts I can quote but this is perhaps best done in a followthrough post as compiling the entire list here would make this post 20 times longer.

Setup speculation indicates we should have a pun in the investigative claims. We have MariaR's, we have the proven track from Ouroboros, we have wilky's delayed cop, we have Kaede's IC as conftown, we have Jungle's claimed ability to make another player's alignment revealed (even if he messed up on making it work), and in that pool you can reasonably expect there to be a pun.

It wasn't Ouroboros.
It's not Kaede.
I have townreads on wilky and Jungle.
Ergo, MariaR's role is likely a truthful investigative, just belonging to pun.

This is magnified by the outcome of events. Ouroboros just so happened to recruit MariaR at apparently the earliest opportunity. And then Ouroboros just so happened to die almost immediately after that. I feel the two events are in fact linked together. Yes, Ouroboros had other reasons to die, but I think that role contributed to it because pun knew what their role was.

My own experience with MariaR indicates this is far more likely to be her pungame than her towngame.

And then when you throw in that Kokichi Oma is perhaps the player on site I would most trust to be able to read her and he says she's pun, then I really think we should Maki this wagon happen sooner rather than later.

projectmatt:

I've been a close associate of Nero Cain's since before most of the players in this game even joined mafiascum. Over the years, I have gotten to know his play intimately. He can be aptly described as a ruder, more competent, more arrogant version of Creature.

By which, I mean, regardless of his alignment, he's going to be an ass, who presents a holier-than-thou attitude. Regardless of his alignment, his charisma is dismal. However, at his base, the same core tell always works on him regardless; when he is town, he is incredibly active to the point of being almost a spam poster, providing reads which are strong, confident, and accurate. He is in your face and always has something to say with what he says being game content rather than fluff.

When he is pun, he is a lurker. Mostly just lurking, since he does produce actual content when around (just at a far more infrequent rate), but he does a fair share of active lurking as well. I Cain tell you, having known him for the years that I have, this is squarely in the latter category. He was doing almost nothing the entire time he was around. If he were town, he'd have been all over Ventriloquist as well. His list of sins is great, and I'm not sure I can even properly describe all of them because as such a long-time associate these are things I just know rather than needing to explain to others.

I haven't gotten the chance to really read projectmatt content since then, but I wouldn't need to in order to conclude pun.

That having been said, the little content I have seen indicates pun as well. For instance, the Wraith defense at day end

did

seem like TMI, knowing he was going to flip town and hoping to earn town credit from not being on the lynch wagon.

Pun, that question was asked in some form already. The role they would flip is the one they had at the time of their death.

Well nobody told ME that the question had been asked.

From that we can safely assume either the role swap had already happened (allowing pun to preserve their roles) or that Ventriloquist simply started with it and the pun valued their roles enough to let him flip with it.

It may be worth looking over Ventrilioquist's posts to see if there is any role breadcrumbs. If there are breadcrumbs present, we would be able to identify the holder of the role being breadcrumbed as pun.

Nero was lurky as scum in Necromancer too.

As a thought experiment. Let me demonstrate to you Nero Cain's meta.
This is a list of every Large Theme Nero Cain has posted in.

This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. While not two pages, that game suffered from numerous hastened deaths; having as many posts as he does there is still impressively large.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. NINE pages. (Caveat: everyone that game had more posts than normal.)
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages, and that's only from two gamedays.
This is just about one of the shortest towngames you'll find from Nero Cain.
This is Nero Cain's more typical iso once more as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Short for him, I will admit.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as a lategame replacement. Keep the timing of his replacement in mind for the amount of volume he produced.
As far as I can tell, Nero Cain was town here. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Shorter than most, but still two pages.
I'm excluding this game as Nero Cain replaced in late during the day and was killed that very same night, unless anyone has objections. If you do object and wish to count it as valid, then may I continue to point out what is more typical?
Such as this Nero Cain iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages. And he only had one day phase to produce it, as he died N1.
Considering the length of the game, this is fairly short, but Nero Cain's iso as town still managed the feat.
I do confess another shorter iso would be this one as town.
I should technically mention this iso here as well is short, but for good reason; note the V/LA which led to him being replaced. To offset that,
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Four pages.
This is a shorter Nero Cain iso as town. It is shorter because they died N1, yet still managed over a hundred posts.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
I am fairly certain Nero Cain is Gollum and thus this is his iso as town. Shorter at two pages, but still broke the barrier.
If Nero Cain is Gollum, This is his iso as town. Two pages, and he died N1 no less.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages, so a bit short given the duration he was alive.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages, so a bit short given the duration he was alive.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Four pages.

This is Nero Cain's iso as pun.
This is Nero Cain's iso as pun. Multiball, to boot. Yet he still didn't post much comparatively speaking.
This is Nero Cain as pun doing respectably well. And it spanned the entire game (he was the last pun alive).
This is a little bit longer an iso from Nero Cain as pun yet he still didn't breach the two-page barrier.
This is the one and only example of Nero Cain breaching the barrier as pun I can find. If I had to suspect, multiball may play a part.
This is Nero Cain as pun across multiple day phases with a hydra partner still failing to breach the barrier.
This is Nero Cain as the last surviving pun coming close but still failing.
This is Nero Cain's iso as pun.
Nero Cain did breach the barrier in this game as pun, but it is noteworthy that game was multiball which I again suspect played a part.
This is Nero Cain's iso as pun.
So this game featured cultafia and thus I'm not sure if he started as town or not, and he did request replacement, but all the same I thought I would mention this Nero Cain iso as pun.

Not mentioned because I know he was in the game as a hydra but I don't know what his account name was: this game.

That is five years' worth of meta on Nero Cain for Large Themes.

Five years

, the last five years, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2013 (which I didn't go back to the beginning of the year on, just up until the beginning of March 2013).

Can Nero Cain's activity tell in of itself guarantee his alignment? No, it cannot; there are outliers as town where he produced less content and outliers as pun where he produced more. But it is one of the most solid tells you can have on site. If you doubt the tell, try checking out the towngames I am linking to and compare them to the pungames I am linking to.

This is thoroughly his punplay.

And as projectmatt inherited the slot, he is pun.

davesaz:

When I started reading, I had foreknowledge that davesaz's miller claim was

apparently retracted/changed into 'some negative utility'

at a later point.

The underlined is incorrect.
I stated that I'm miller. At a later point I said that my "ability" section had flavor in it. There has never been a retraction / change about the role -- it's straight Commonwealth miller with nothing else, and nothing but the flavor in the ability section.

Oh, that makes a difference then. I was under the impression from the list of claims that it had changed later in the game during a section I hadn't read.

With the knowledge it hasn't, you become a reasonably solid punread. Not as solid as MariaR and projectmatt (the Strong Punread section), but enough to have your own special category of "Punread".

Though I'm tempted to lump you in with them for this.

Punreader's analysis assumes a: that scum!Jungle wouldn't gambit, b: that town would inevitably lynch scum!Jungle after these events making it a low chance of success.

Yes, and those are safe assumptions to make as assuming those is working with occam's razor whereas assuming JUNGLE gambits as pun and that the town wouldn't inevitably lynch a pun JUNGLE is a violation of occam's razor.

I don't know if a gambit is likely or unlikely, I just know it can't be ruled out.

Nothing "can be ruled out". There is (almost) nothing which is impossible in a game. (Almost) everything CAN happen.

The job of a town player is to determine

which things most likely

did

happen

.

Gambiting is something which could have happened.
It is not something that is likely to have happened.

Ignoring the probability (rather, lack thereof) of it happening in favor of embracing the possibility it happened is thoroughly a pro-pun agenda.

The PLAN might have been for Impossibear to die, and scum!Jungle is then functionally a loud fruit vendor at very little risk.

When did JUNGLE claim the power? Was it on D1? This is something I don't know.

So feel free to correct me here, if JUNGLE announced his power on D1.

If JUNGLE didn't claim the power until D2, then this scenario you are outlining is impossible. The plan going awry? Well then JUNGLE simply has no need to claim the action.

Not claiming it loses the possibility of using it at all.

Yes, and if the power is pro-town and JUNGLE is pun...why is this a bad thing for the pun?

Having a competent mod design a quest with that degree of complexity and then allowing it to fail on a technicality when the intent was clear stretches credibility a little.

Counterpoint: this is a game moderated by GuyInFreezer. I know his modding well enough to know this is

precisely

the sort of stunt he would pull.

I suppose a mod could be that hardcore and town!Jungle could make that mistake, but it seems very unlikely.

What seems unlikely to me is you trying to find every possible reason to call JUNGLE pun ignoring all the reasons why he is likely town.

Moving on to the question of whether town would inevitably punish scum!Jungle with a lynch -- it seems that WIFOM might be king here and we might not do so simply on the "mistake".

Oh? And where do you draw the line on WIFOM? Everything could be WIFOM. So what WIFOM is 'valid' to you, and what WIFOM is 'invalid' to you? You can call anything WIFOM and I can demonstrate this quite easily if you doubt me. So what makes the possibility here be WIFOM to you worth invoking that name?

But that is very short sighted, to excuse it as human error and not a possible gambit.

No, that is called following occam's razor with a dosage of hanlon's razor:
Not attributing to malice what can best be explained far more simply with stupidity.
The simple answer is stupidity.
The complex answer requiring contrived justifications is malice based on some possible gambit.

If we look at Jungle

outside the quest info

, what would the read be?

If we look at JUNGLE outside of the quest info, the read would be solidly nulltown; there is nothing indicating pun and yet minor signs indicating town.

I feel perhaps my snark weakens the strength of my point. So to reiterate,

If we allow scum!Jungle to push another fruitless outlandish quest on town it might damage us beyond repair. Am I wrong to think it's within the mod's range to include something tantalizing as a way to punish a greedy town? In the unlikely event Jungle is really town, it would be bad to lose the potential upside, but I can't see the game being designed so that town needs the quest to win. Furthermore if Jungle is town and the quest is powerful, why would scum leave the quest giver alive?

Regarding Maria, I know we can count on RC to have invited another member to the neighborhood. We can hope that at least one of them is town. If the neighborhood generates a track result on someone who visits, it yields two conf or a town/scum dipole. I think we wait on her to see what results there are, if any.

What differentiates these two, davesaz?

You are saying to lynch Jungle on the possibility his role may damage us; you are willing to sacrifice the utility of his ability.

You are saying to not lynch Maria on the possibility her role may help us; you are not willing to sacrifice the utility of her ability.

Care to offer an explanation?

@Kaede -- quote anything from Jungle that doesn't involve the quest that is obviously town. Anything that is making the slightest effort to solve the game.

Innocent until proven guilty; the burden of proof is on the accuser.

@dave: quote anything from JUNGLE that doesn't involve the quest that is obviously pun. Anything that is making the slightest effort to manipulate the town.

>when your 2 sr's are the biggest wagon
it's Christmas time to see who I can lynch first

And yet you vote neither.

Town OTM and town you is possible if we make the additional assumption of Scum JK/Busdriver.

Or even redirector. I concluded these three roles were possible already, and I maintain that projectmatt is the most likely holder of them.

There is no scum motivation to giving the vig the Party Starter if the vig is hard townreading you (we were, fairly obviously). There is no scum motivation in NOT giving the strong willed modifier to your partner if there is a town RB. OTM claimed yesterday. The paranoia wrt to OTM makes perfect sense from someone who isn't nuts in the exact same way as me

This is enough to move Alchemist into my locktown pile, as I buy this.

AND because of RC's setup spec D2.

For the record, it was the spec which prompted me to ask the question to the mod about the ability swapper. The reason I asked was because I don't really agree with the setup speculation; if you wish to townread me, then utilizing other reasoning is for the best.

With that said, I'm going to drop an action plan for Maria shortly to hopefully turn her and her neighbor into a mason pair, so it's a bad lynch today anyway.

I maintain that any plan which relies on her being town is a bad plan, but acknowledge we can have better lynches and that the plan will at least help demonstrate her alignment when she refuses to cooperate.

I don't think you should telegraph your hide tonight because: There's probably a busdriver

I don't see why. The mod told me my Hide is equal to a Commute in NAR. This means I always hide behind my intended target. Now, if pun want to shoot my target when I'm hiding behind players that should be lynched, power to them. If town wants to shoot my target when I'm hiding behind players that should be lynched, then they would be taking that shot anyway.

Pun, do you have experience with projectmatt?

Enough to say he is one of the most underrated pun players on the site. He has an elite pungame which consistently performs quite well, yet almost nobody seems to be aware of this. I would attribute it at least in part to not being able to strongly differentiate between his towngame and his pungame.

His pungame is almost identical to his towngame in my experience, making it difficult to distinguish between the two. Yet he is an incredibly

good

town player, which translates into extreme hesitance to lynch him when he is pun because he is a master of making it look like he is a good town player when he is pun.

This doesn't mean it is impossible to read him, of course. I acknowledge I personally hold little ability to tell the difference and that he is incredibly competent as either alignment. This is one of the main reasons why I am adamant you not trust him and ignore that he replaced Nero Cain. Nero had strong evidence which suggested overwhelmingly he was far more likely to be pun than town, and projectmatt regardless of his alignment was going to make people like him because

that's just what he does

.

Pun, do you have experience with projectmatt?

Actually, can you go more into your Alchemist read specifically?

Not particularly, no. Aside from how the evidence Impossibear gives does move him into town, I have been viewing his actions and seen a player who I can see the town thought process behind his actions.

I may not agree with what Alchemist21 has been doing (similar to wilky), but I can still understand what he is doing, how he got to where he is, and trace the thought process. It demonstrates an incredibly visible, easy-to-read narrative, one which is not likely to come from a pun player. He felt highly transparent, but with just enough opaque that it wasn't out of the question altogether for him to be pun.

Knowing what his role is removes that opaqueness altogether and now I feel like I can see the full picture of his process, start to finish, thus the read upgrade.

Since there have been changes to my reads, an update:

HAS COMMON INTERESTS:

Kaede Akamatsu
Wilky
hebichan/OnTheMark
Alchemist21
Dunnstral
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

HIGHLY LIKELY TOWN:

Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) (may deserve to be higher again)
Ankamius
verylazy/Kokichi Oma

LEFTOVER:

Ramcius

STRONG PUNREADS:

davesaz
MariaR
Nero Cain/projectmatt

Absolutely none of those help in any way, do they?

Have you actually been

reading

literally any of my posts?

Words are not the same as helping.

If I was a suicide player I would suicide on you right now no regrets.

As for details I lack the time to get into them.

[OnTheMark]

Words are not the same as helping.

Right so apparently detailed

exact reads

on

every player in the game

and outlining the process by which I got those reads and the strength of them including

writing a case for players who're pun

doesn't qualify as helping. Nor does as a side-project (which is notably exactly that) entering into setup speculation to augment reads.

I ask again.

Have you actually been

reading

my posts? Because you sure aren't acting like it.

Yes, I am. I find them to be completely bloated and 90% of what you say can be boiled down to a few sentences, none of which “help” your slot, and just make me think you and Jungle are aligned. Your activity seems to coincidentally spike when certain people are talked about and I find that no coincidence. You ping me something fierce..

Partner is dave k choo choo I'm busy hurry up

The hilarious part is, she can say this truthfully in more than one way.

[OnTheMark]

Reiterating this is bullshit.

[OnTheMark]

Ram is town. Wilky is still prob scum.

Stop saying so many wall posts people.

[OnTheMark]

And whoever said redirecting me is a possibility it isn’t.

My block comes before redirects.

[OnTheMark]

Ram is town. Wilky is still prob scum.

Stop saying so many wall posts people.

If you call the two posts from me and Ram there wall posts then i'd like to see what you call a real wall post. If you mean my case it was in spoilers for a reason and I only did it because Ram kept insisting. Either way suck it up and play the game regardless.

I am playing the game.

Trying to convince people traditionally didn’t work so I am pointing out the scumminess in abridged form.

[OnTheMark]

Reiterating this is bullshit.

If this is bullshit, you should be able to show WHY it is.

I can. It’s just completely antitown to continue arguing well ...anything I think. Then it just turns into pages of OTM is an idiot at best that no one wants to read so :/ Meh.

[OnTheMark]

Punreader has done zilch to help the slot as well.

Oh really?

Spoiler: I suppose these are nothing, then?

However, if you're itching for analysis right now without reading anything, a freebie: most of the punteam bussed.

I submit as proof both the pun lynch fairly early, and that you haven't managed to lynch pun since then with a significantly longer D2. That would suggest you're looking in the wrong places. If you're looking off the wagon, that would explain things quite nicely. I'd need far better grounding in the game to be able to name specific names.

Except you are not voting a busser, and are not pushing a busser, and are not hypothesizing potential bus teams that did this, and you have since had time to be fully grounded and yet have not done this. Therefore you don’t believe this enough to make it a focus or are conveniently ignoring it to help your buddies.

Tchill13 was very scummy... but I want to see what punreader does to see if they can reverse my read.

Overall impression from your reads is that almost all of your strong town, off of the reasoning you have given, are slots I'd be

concerned

about. In contrast, your normal townreads look fairly likely to be accurate. I lack the information to give feedback on those below the townread line off of your one post.

Another dodge of giving reads or anything “concrete” except to buddy up with Ank. You aren’t working with her now and never went back to this to give feedback. Again it’s more “empty” words with no substance. This is common when scum have to figure out where to start coming in.

Overall impression from your reads is that almost all of your strong town, off of the reasoning you have given, are slots I'd be concerned about.

Why?

Your description of their play is describing things I would immediately be severely cautious about coming from the players in question.

Kaede- IC
Jungle- Weird Joat
Wilky- Miller Slow Cop
Maria- Some Kind of Investigative
OTM- Weird RB
Tchill- Non weak hider
Us- BP Vig w/ unspecified modifier
Flipped: Ability Swapper
For setup spec reference, cause I'm gonna want pun to do the same thing when they get their ass in here.

Ankamius
Ouroboros (AnonymousGhost + RadiantCowbells)
Ramcius
Alchemist21
Dunnstral
davesaz- NEG UTIL
Kokichi Oma- Unclaimed
projectmatt- Unclaimed
Wraith- Unclaimed

Well quick analysis would be that there's probably 2-3 pun in the unclaimed with 0-1 pun in the claimed. My role can act as a self-protective, your role has a protective, OnTheMark's roleblock gives a third source of killstopping power. This seems reasonable from town, but I would become suspect of an additional killstopper claim.

Kaede as an IC, the ability to get a second alignment confirmation, the miller slow cop, and the investigative is a little on the heavy side in terms of investigating. It's possible there's a pun in there, but not guaranteed. I would definitely lynch in there if we had an additional investigative claim.

I'd need to see the whole set of roles in the game for more thorough analysis. It'd be Impossible before then. Do bear with me.

This is another stall and “bear with me post” that punreader NEVER revisits. Punreader has multiple theories, Scum busser d1 (doesn’t attack a busser today) One if the investigatives is scum (doesn’t attack the claimed investigatives to figure out which). Again it is “content” without “content” or follow through. Lots of words without meaning

Ventriloquist (10):

Ouroboros,

ManWithNoName

, MariaR (Investigative), Wraith, Alchemist21,

Kaede Akamatsu

, davesaz (negative utility), Tchill13, wilky (Miller Slow Cop), Ankamius

If I'm honest, the only names here which don't immediately look town are Ouroboros and MariaR. Outside chance, Ankamius. But I'll let this analysis sit in the fridge a while and cool off while I go read.

We have too much power claimed and a flipped scum. That means strong townreads outside of the claimed power roles are disproportionally more likely to be accurate.

Respectfully, I disagree. I strongly believe the unclaimed would contain a minimum of one pun, if not two. I would expect this game to be almost, but not quite, role madness. I'd expect 2-4 vanillas in the game total (let's say 3), including the one flipped already. Everyone else I would anticipate holding a role.

If you treat the game as role madness, you use a different metric to read game balance than a metric for a game that is predominantly vanilla. No matter which three names are pun, the game fundamentally

cannot

be predominantly vanilla. Ergo, the unclaimed aren't more cleared; they're more suspicious.

Kaede- IC
Jungle- Weird Joat
Wilky- Miller Slow Cop
Maria- Some Kind of Investigative
OTM- Weird RB
Tchill- Non weak hider
Us- BP Vig w/ unspecified modifier
Flipped: Ability Swapper
For setup spec reference, cause I'm gonna want pun to do the same thing when they get their ass in here.

Ankamius
Ouroboros (AnonymousGhost + RadiantCowbells)
Ramcius
Alchemist21
Dunnstral
davesaz- NEG UTIL
Kokichi Oma- Unclaimed
projectmatt- Unclaimed
Wraith- Unclaimed

Well quick analysis would be that there's probably 2-3 pun in the unclaimed with 0-1 pun in the claimed. My role can act as a self-protective, your role has a protective, OnTheMark's roleblock gives a third source of killstopping power. This seems reasonable from town, but I would become suspect of an additional killstopper claim.

Kaede as an IC, the ability to get a second alignment confirmation, the miller slow cop, and the investigative is a little on the heavy side in terms of investigating. It's possible there's a pun in there, but not guaranteed. I would definitely lynch in there if we had an additional investigative claim.

I'd need to see the whole set of roles in the game for more thorough analysis. It'd be Impossible before then. Do bear with me.

Extrapolating from my conclusions thusfar, it would be fair to state I would not lynch most of the claimed roles at this juncture. Outside chance of MariaR but I wouldn't be comfortable concluding that so hastily; I'm not married to the concept.

I would lynch in the unclaimed players. Off of description of play, I'm not too concerned about Wraith or Alchemist21. (I'll concoct more tangible analysis later.) I'm also not so concerned about Dunnstral. (He's a read I don't need to put much effort into before getting dun.)
Inversely, off of description of play (not to mention the D1 lynch) I would be rather concerned about Ouroboros and projectmatt.
I wouldn't be confident he'd flip pun, but I'd lynch Ramicus if it came to it which seems to be what you want to do anyway.

Still, these are without reading the game so we'll have to see what changes when I've actually read D1.

Now you think there is a scum in a cluster yet never push there and now are not willing to lynch them. You also have yet another undelivered promise of Wraith/Alchemist21 content. This is partially not entirely what makes me think it’s you and Alch21. What’s even more sketchy is you’d be willing to lynch Ramcius without reading and without scumreading him and won’t lynch the people you do scumread. This and the other posts could be summarized into “I haven’t read yet but I will buddy Ank and lynch Ram which is horrible.

Inversely, off of description of play (not to mention the D1 lynch) I would be rather concerned about Ouroboros and projectmatt.

The implication here is that you specifically scumread me

more

for having lynched scum D1, am I wrong?

I would say you are more right than wrong. 'Scumread' implies a level of read on you I wouldn't confidently say I have. I literally haven't read the game; it would be hard to have a punread of any real strength.

I would say it's more that I have an idea of where I wouldn't look and where I would look, and you're in the area I would look. Looking there doesn't make you pun, in of itself. It just means I'm looking at you as a pun candidate. Your application is on file and being processed; for all I know, when I read the game, it could be thrown into the shredder. But for the moment, it is being reviewed.

This again is more hedging bets. It’s something that you can easily walk away from later. This post summarizes to “I haven’t read the game but will lynch RCdra

Dave Wraith ProjectMatt Ank RC ETL Kokichi should have all the scums I think

@Pun
What do you think is right? Wrong? And maybe?

I would off of Ankamius's description think Wraith is wrong.
I would think Dave, outside chance at Ank (otherwise a wrong), severely outside chance of ETL (most likely a wrong), and Kokichi qualify as 'Maybe'.

I wouldn't go so far as to say ProjectMatt and RC are 'right', but they are focal points of mine.

Ask me again after I read D1; it's too early to really be certain.

Here again you take careful pause to say it is ‘uncertain’ and summarizes into “I haven’t read but I will lynch Project Matt or RCdra

That's not the question I asked.

Not precisely, no, but it's the most accurate answer you'll receive. You asked a question expecting it to be a yes or no question but it wasn't actually something I could answer with a 'yes' or a 'no'.

Scumread implies a level of read on you I don't have without having read the game. I have an idea where I wouldn't look and where I would look. You spearheading the D1 lynch in the way I am hearing it described is one of the areas I would look. That doesn't make you pun; it simply means I am looking at you as a pun candidate.

This is like the billionth time you’ve said ‘Hey I would lynch RCdra without reading’. Once or twice I get it but at this point your biggest contribution is that you haven’t read yet. There was nothing gained from this post at all

I'm also going to hardclaim miller here and the miller has a flavour name too so i'd like to put the question to dave on what's the flavour name of your miller role.

Until then
VOTE: Davesaz

While the mod of this game is bold enough to brave the pitchforks of a pun miller, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out this is a town entrance. I especially buy the townslip:

And you’re clearly wrong here. Wilky FMPOV is lying. My action comes first in NAR. This means it cannot be redirected. As of making this post you would have known Wilky is lying. What pisses me off is that Wilky is Guilty won’t be lynched. Jungle is guilty won’t be lynched. Dave should have been lynched yesterday and wasn’t and you supposedly being good at mechanics make up a town slip that just isn’t there and is unsupported

So we're just assuming that safe claims are given now?

Yay!

VOTE: Davesaz

Because I don't trust sculptures.

Even without Ankamius's description, I sense a spark of town here.

No.No.no

Bringing out the Roy I LIKE THIS GAME ALREADY
VOTE: Kaede
Srs vote
Pedit: Ew.

I'm not quite sure what I should be Making this out to be.

Oh, is that a thing with GiF games?
I am willing to reveal flavor as requested, but would like to hear opinions on whether it's actually helpful and on whether the other miller claim should be required to do the same (presumably yes on first question implies absolutely yes on 2nd but that's just my opinion).

Certainly not a rock-hard townread I can tell you that.

Trust other people? What is this blasphemy?

I'm beginning to understand why people would want to ram this lynch through.

Again no depth. It’s “Hey willing to lynch Ram without any of my own thoughts behind it

I'm not getting the Wilky hate. Like at all. Why in the world would scum fakeclaim miller to 1v1 a useless powerrole. Everyone on that wagon gets -10 town cred.

What does seem possible to me is that Dave fakeclaims miller and then CC'd.

vote:Dave

While the read here is understandable enough, I am tempted to Nero my vision down to a tunnel and just keep calling the slot pun.

so you can buddy me? Why would you be tempted? Why do you have to plan strategically what you would do? Again this provides no content or in-depth thought

Maybe I'm reading myself into you but that's what it feels like to me.

The reason I feel pun bussed can also be seen in another telltale sign:

VC 1.07

Tchill13 (1):

verylazy

wilky (1):

Ramcius

MariaR (1):

Nero Cain

Ventriloquist (10):

Ouroboros, ManWithNoName, MariaR, Wraith, Alchemist21, Kaede Akamatsu, davesaz, Tchill13, wilky, Ankamius

ManWithNoName (1):

Ventriloquist

Wraith (1):

Impossibear

Impossibear (1):

Dunnstral

davesaz (1):

hebichan

verylazy (1):

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

There is literally no counterwagon to the pun lynch. None, whatsoever, even remotely. There isn't even so much as a single wagon with two votes on it. If pun did not bus, if there were no pun involved in this lynch, then why would this be the case? It is of course

possible

for the pun to simply have been scattered and lack coordination, especially if lacking daychat. (I have reached the part in the game where that question was asked, but not where it was answered.)

But that is literally the only possible alternative to pun bussing.

If you instead assume pun did bus, then which names are the most likely to have done so? I don't see what really looks like what can be considered a solid pun block on there. If there's not a solid pun block on the lynch, yet pun bussed, the implication from it would be that the pun bussing was someone whose position carried disproportionate strength.

This is why I stated what I did.

You spearheading the D1 lynch in the way I am hearing it described is one of the areas I would look. That doesn't make you pun; it simply means I am looking at you as a pun candidate.

The evidence I have points to this as a feasible conclusion.
It is not the only conclusion.
The pun could all be scattered in various names.
The pun could be in various positions on the wagon.
The pun could be in a bloc on the wagon.

Those are all alternative possibilities to the conclusion the pun bussing was someone whose bus held strength. They are also viable. If I said that from the end of day votecount the evidence hard pointed to the conclusion of pun bussing with it being a hard pusher, that would be a lie because the other options remain, currently neither proven or disproven.

I also maintain by setup speculation that this game should be power role heavy and that of the roles claimed thusfar, few are notably suspect. An opinion which does clash with Jingle's apparently.

However, I also hold no doubt the town is mostly on the right track. I believe there are some potential oversights that my insight has shed light on. I believe that there are a few incorrect assumptions going around and a few data points which people overlooked that I saw. That doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make them wrong. It does mean that I feel they should have a closer look at things, while I take a first look at those very same things.

This is the billionth+1 you avoid taking a hard stance or using your theories in your posts. I’d expect you at least to think out loud or something. But instead you’re saying “need to read” instead of content. AGAIN

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilky has done research and is relying on the miller claim because he realises the host has done this before, especially since he chose to highlight that it wasn't far fetched for there to be 2 millers again. As Alchemist said though, this is relying on some pretty niche assumptions so I'm not buying it just yet.

I'm pretty sure that any puppeteer can tell you why this particular pulling of the strings projects willky as town.

While many reads require little explanation (e.g. Ramicus),

I don't get how town Nero can get "oh 3 people claim neg utility so scum has to be fake claiming" without thinking if that's the case town has to have some great stuff or scum are underpowered etc etc.
Scum nero thinking that and using it as an agenda to push something makes a lot more sense though imo.

This is a genuine point I feel a particular need to emphasize. The riaR end of the post is what you're looking for; Nero's agenda matches what I'd expect from a pun player. The slot is now projectmatt, if I'm not mistaken.

The OMGUS is also uncharacteristic of a town Nero. He's usually the one

being

OMGUSed.

Here you just go “meh whatever” and then emphasize project Matt scum trying to get MariaR to do your dirty work. Which is funny as you haven’t read yet? Or have you?

Though that's not perfect and things start to fall apart balance wise in role madness games like this

I've questioned whether to bring this up or not but ultimately I suppose I'll take the risk. Dunn is in the unclaimed pool, but if everyone was paying attention, y'stral should have noticed he accidentally slipped being a PR here. That is thus an additional PR in the pool of players holding PRs, and consequentially, further evidence this game is role-heavy.

Why the hell would you EVER out this as town? Again this isn’t content. You’re not using whether this game is roleheavy or not to find the people you suspect to be truthtelling. You’re pushing the unclaimed

two town millers.

Not "two millers", two "town millers". Noted.

VC 1.01

Ventriloquist (2):

davesaz, hebichan

Ouroboros (1):

Alchemist21

Nero Cain (1):

Impossibear

Tchill13 (1):

verylazy

Kaede Akamatsu (1):

Dunnstral

MariaR (1):

Ramcius

davesaz (1):

wilky

wilky (5):

Ouroboros,

Kaede Akamatsu

,

ManWithNoName

, MariaR, Ankamius

WOW. There is

DEFINITELY

scum in this group. Make this the short-list for D1 lynch or N1 investigations.

Since I've no intention to read the vast majority of D2, I would like to ask ETL if these stances still hold.

Since you have given up the intention of reading then what the fuck was all the “Oh I will read and get back to you.” I expect you to get back to us on all those promises now if you aren’t reading. Again this isn’t content.

Clarify man with no name and Ventriloquist townreads please

I also read the whole thing and I hold interest in modern reads on Ouroboros and the Nero slot and if town why.

Yeah I could get on board with a Vent wagon too

Is it not possible Tchill has a jester role of some sort? Not suggesting an insta win but I don't see how his claim could be helpful to town otherwise.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilky has done research and is relying on the miller claim because he realises the host has done this before, especially since he chose to highlight that it wasn't far fetched for there to be 2 millers again. As Alchemist said though, this is relying on some pretty niche assumptions so I'm not buying it just yet.

Very suspicious post

Almost forgot, might as well elaborate on why I find this post very suspicious, because why not

He uses some rather

absurd

leaps in logic in two separate cases to paint a narrative picture about these two players, deliberately ignoring Occam's Razor in favor of stirring up WIFOM.

What is more likely? That TChill is running a Jester gambit? Or that TChill is fakeclaiming? TChill's was by far the least believable claim so far, and the most awkward (considering Kaede is mod-confirmed). By bringing up some a longshot possiblity, Vent is indirectly mounting a soft defense of TChill.

Simultaneously, he attempts to cast suspicion on Wilky with a similarly absurd leap. What's more likely? That Wilky is claiming Miller truthfully in a game run by a mod who apparently has a habit of these kinds of setup quirks? Or that Wilky is deliberately playing off mod meta to mount a roundabout fakeclaim gambit, with a claim that is by its nature instantly considered suspect by default?

I don't like that whatsoever. And after we get the VC I might consider switching my vote right now.

I'm quite serious when I say this is a stronger push than anything I've seen from RC. It's like comparing a slam-dunk case to a bunch of shade. He's just so much more solid.

*shakes head* You seem like a competent player yet are putting stock in a scum who was clearly going down day one. That is crap. This entire post is again I MIGHT do something. You’re asking more questions than you’re attempting to answer and expecting others to do it for you

I don't like Ventrilo's attempt push me, i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim", we still have Tchill/Wilky situation, Realmen asking to be burned with the fire, hebi's sheeping is unsettling, Nero is awkwardly silent

Hm, i guess i try

VOTE: Nero

others at least are talking

Okay so I know I said I didn't need to shove this up on you, but really, you should see this. Naming all of those people, especially Ventriloquist, and then going elsewhere for no reason.

Actually, Maria can't be faking tracker, so keeping cards close to the chest is unimportant.

Sure, it is a given she can't be faking it. Telling the truth does not indicate her alignment is town though.

I claim in the hood with rc

I claim that 3750 is a flagrant punclaim.

VOTE: ProjectMatt
with Wraith flipping green, his Wraith defense at the end of the day looks like TMI and attempt to get town cred, he didn't tried save him, he just didn't wanted to be on ML wagon

You are not wrong.

I will vote whichever of MariaR/projectmatt has a larger wagon. If both have equal wagons, my vote defaults to MariaR.

By proxy, you may remember this is calling Kokichi town.

Summary
MariaR is in a neighborhood with Dunn and Ouroboros created by Ouroboros.
That neighborhood also controls a tracker among all of them, track target must be agreed to by majority.
If there's 1 or more scum in the hood the track will always yield "didn't visit" regardless.
MariaR claims to track matt and getting "didn't visit"
matt confirms this.
wilky claims no result and blames OTM for it.
OTM says he targeted dave.

Alternative theory tying these together. MariaR is pun, and thus, regardless of whom was tracked, the result would be "didn't visit". projectmatt was selected (Ouroboros wanted it and MariaR knowing it could create a false negative went along with this) to falsely clear him as regardless of whether he took an action or not it would always display as him having not taken one due to MariaR's alignment being pun. willky's action failed because MariaR's role provided immunity to the investigation. (Alternatively, projectmatt has a blocking role and targeted willky.)

willky, Dunnstral, and OnTheMark are all town; MariaR and projectmatt completely messed up the town's actions.

NO AGAIN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! Top of NAR means I cannot be redirected! My action completely resolved before a redirectors. The only thing is if scum copy my action entirely or have some sort of cloner and could do as they wished. My action CANNOT be bus driven redirected or otherwise altered..

Furthermore, JUNGLE is town who made a mistake.

HAS COMMON INTERESTS:

Kaede Akamatsu
Wilky
Dunnstral
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) (CAVEAT: Requires no serial killers as possible this game, which I believe from the wincon is the case)

HIGHLY LIKELY TOWN:

Ankamius
Alchemist21
hebichan/OnTheMark
verylazy/Kokichi Oma (CAVEAT: requires MariaR flipping pun)

LEFTOVERS:

Ramcius
davesaz

STRONG PUNREADS:

MariaR
Nero Cain/projectmatt

All of these are in my mind fairly self-explanatory, but I may need to unpack my process here a little so that everyone has a better understanding of these.

Why Jungle can't be 4th member? 3 man mafia makes no sense

The idea that JUNGLE is pun here who claimed the powers he did and deliberately sabotaged them is absolutely flagrantly ridiculous. It doesn't happen. I'm sure someone intent on lynching JUNGLE will try to strawman this by linking to some game with a pun player whose actions had a passing resemblance to this game.

Doesn't matter. JUNGLE does not take this path as pun. Additionally, JUNGLE targeted Ouroboros with the quest for today, as proven by the moderator.

If JUNGLE were pun trying to deliberately sabotage their actions, they would target a player that they knew would live, such that they could get town credit while still enacting a pro-scum agenda.

However, targeting the nightkill only serves to make JUNGLE look

worse

. At a time where people are already inclined to lynch JUNGLE.

To put it together. JUNGLE, if pun, knew that as a consequence of his actions, players going into today would be suspicious of him, due to Impossibear not being conftown as promised. If he were pun, he would need to take an action to alleviate this. He would need to take an action that would make people want to spare him for longer. Yet if he were pun, then he targeted Ouroboros knowing he was targeting the player that would die. This sets him up for a lynch.

Far more likely is that it was an honest mistake, and that he had no way of predicting Ouroboros would be the pun's nightkill.

Already went over this is bullshit and you’re copying other users here

Or who is 4th then?

This, I do not know for sure. Given your early content, it remains possible to be you. However, given my overall feelings combined with your interactions, I would be more inclined to say it is another leftover.

As there is only one other leftover, process of elimination would indicate to me that davesaz is pun.

First off:

Abilities:

• Bodyswap:
  At any point of the game, you may switch your role with your factional members by PMing the mod.

MOD: Say Player A started the game as the Factional Ability Swapper.
Say Player B started the game aligned with Player A and held the role of Hider.

Say Player A used the Factional Ability Swapper with Player B in the middle of D1.

If Player A was lynched on D1, what would they flip?
If Player B was lynched on D1, what would they flip?

I feel this is an important question which was neglected.

With that inquiry made,

HAS COMMON INTERESTS:

Kaede Akamatsu
Wilky
Dunnstral
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) (CAVEAT: Requires no serial killers as possible this game, which I believe from the wincon is the case)

HIGHLY LIKELY TOWN:

Ankamius
Alchemist21
hebichan/OnTheMark
verylazy/Kokichi Oma (CAVEAT: requires MariaR flipping pun)

LEFTOVERS:

Ramcius
davesaz

STRONG PUNREADS:

MariaR
Nero Cain/projectmatt

All of these are in my mind fairly self-explanatory, but I may need to unpack my process here a little so that everyone has a better understanding of these.

I decided to unpack my process here after all. From the top down:

Kaede Akamatsu:

Even if Kaede hadn't popped the IC, I'd have Kaede in my townbloc because this is solidly Kaede's towngame; Akam see it clear as day. The IC was frankly an unnecessary redundancy. But with it, at least this read requires no further explanation.

wilky:

While many suspect wilky, few fingering wilky can give any real reasons as to why. The few who have presented their evidence have a process I find absolutely loony. I keep on seeing the suspicion thrown and the cases there and none of it matches what I have witnessed; there is a disconnect between the suspicion on the slot and what the slot has actually given.

Because my own read on wilky's contribution is that wilky's content has been insanely town-motivated. His reads may be less than optimal and his style of posting may be such that players have an innate bias to punreading him, but when you look past the surface level and actually dig into the process he has outlined, the truth shines through. Sure, he may not have the best of reads, but bad reads doesn't make a player of his caliber pun. If you take the time to look at

how

he got those reads, the process is one which is

incredibly

hard to fake, especially for a player who is both relatively new and reasonably unskilled.

Hahahahahahahahabahahaha daychat is a thing. Again you go out of your way to defend wilky yet there is zero clue who you scumread or what you’re doing

Dunnstral:

If you have the extensive game history with him that I do, you can instantly tell this is solidly his towngame. Additionally, he is soft-cleared by MariaR. Regardless of MariaR's alignment, this result is something we can trust; if MariaR is town, the result is accurate and if MariaR is pun, the result is likely still not on a punbuddy, making him town no matter what.

One of these two metrics in of itself may not be enough to townbin him. If it were just a townread off of meta, the townread could be wrong; if it were just the result from Maria, it would be possible she was attempting to falsely clear her punbuddy (though I personally think that manifested in a different manner as I have indicated previously). However, both in tandem is enough to hard-lock him as town; this is a Dunn deal.

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE:

I explained this before, but perhaps I can simplify; calling Jungle pun is a violation of occam's razor when you take motivations into mind.
To start, let's establish a baseline.

• The motivation of a town player is to further the gamestate such that town can identify who is town/pun and coordinate to lynch and shut down pun.
  
• The motivation of a pun player is to further the gamestate such that pun are positioned to control the town. In a typical pun player, this can be subdivided into three motivations in this approximate strength:
  1. Survive as pun
     
  2. Protect punbuddies
     
  3. Control the town
     
  4. Shut the town down
  (That is not the strength they should be in, but it is the strength pun players play them in.)

Then, with these motivations in mind, examine REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE's actions.
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE claimed a role which, if specific conditions were fulfilled, would reveal the alignment of a player.
As town, the motivation of this is self-evident; further the gamestate to identify who is town/pun.
As pun, this requires it to be a move for towncred, as a subset of survivalism.

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE then failed to deliver on this promise.
As town, the motivation of this is self-evident; it was a human error.

OR AS PUN JUNGLE EXPECTED ETL to DIE

As pun, this move would require REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE deliberately putting himself in harm's way (violating survivalism), remove his influence from the town (violating controlling the town), for the sake of not giving away a piece of information not likely to directly harm him (not contributing to protecting a punbuddy), which doesn't shut the town down as much as it denies them a service he had the ability to deny them simply by never using it/never claiming it.

If he were pun who intended to not give the service to the town, why not just neglect to claim it or even never use it?
By claiming it and failing to use it properly, he is placing himself in harm's way for no visible benefit.

This is furthered by his usage on Ouroboros.
If REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE is town, the motivation for targeting Ouroboros is self-evident. Ouroboros is the same type of player as Impossibear; a competent hydra in a strong position to gamesolve, and REALMEN had no way of knowing Ouroboros would be the nightkill.

If REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE is pun, the motivation for targeting Ouroboros requires giving up on surviving (as targeting the nightkill will garner further suspicion beyond the already-existing suspicion to come for the failure on Impossibear, setting himself up for the lynch), controlling the town, and protecting punbuddies for the sake of denying the town a service.

Yes, it is possible for REALMEN to be pun, but it requires navigating a labyrinth of justifications.

The simpler answer is he's town.

---

Impossibear:

I believe they hold a killing power and used it N1 on ManWithNoName. I believe they genuinely think (or thought at the very least) they were the N1 nightkill, saved by their bulletproof. Combining these two is the main source of the townread, but I can also cite strong potential for them gamesolving. However, upon unpacking my thoughts, I want to have them trade places with OnTheMark on my readslist. On the OTM side, you'll see why when I get there, but here for Impossibear, the reason for the degenerated read is that there are some potential red flags to them attempting to lead us astray. I still maintain they are more likely town than not, but it's not impossibear for them to be pun.

---

Ankamius:

This is a read based largely on me liking her thought process. The things she is doing look town. However, some element is absent which prevents me from locking her in as town. (What that element is, I do not know.) Additionally, separately from that, we're not synchronizing as well as I'd expect; I would anticipate her being my mius. This gives further hesitance, similar to my Impossibear feelings. All that said, she's still my strongest read I don't have as locktown.

Alchemist21:

My initial townread came from Ankamius's description of his play, which was one of the things I felt was dead on the mark in her analysis. Since then, I've had further exposure in the form of the first 20 pages of the game plus reading his content since I have replaced in; everything I've witnessed backs that initial assessment, with the tinders of a townread strongly present. Conclusion, strongly likely to be town, but not locktown.

Just no....Either you read or you didn’t. Which is it?

OnTheMark:

I had OnTheMark as a hard townread because of a combination of his role (and play surrounding it) and general feeling around him indicating him to be town. I was kept from locktowning OnTheMark because my reasons were role and general feeling; there was no tangible reason I could point to, which was troubling enough that I wasn't willing to make that call at the time. I lacked hard evidence to prove it.

However, the process of unpacking my thoughts revealed one to me which I can lock onto. OnTheMark can now be locktowned because of OnTheMark's modus operandi as pun. If you assume wilky is town, then his failed action is hard, absolute proof of OnTheMark's innocence. This may seem counterintuitive; why does wilky as town with a failed action prove rather than condemn OnTheMark?

Because we are assuming that if wilky is town, his failure comes from pun. And if the source of his failure comes from pun, then OnTheMark would never abide by it in the first place. OnTheMark would never, EVER accept forcing a deliberate 1v1 with a player. He prefers subtle sabotage, not flagrantly blatant sabotage. If he sabotages a town action, he attempts to leave no trace of it, and being a claimed blocker with wilky's action failing is in no way, shape, or form subtle.

If OnTheMark were pun, he'd know wilky's failed action would create the 1v1. Yes, he may get wilky lynched by entering into that 1v1. Yet after having done so, he automatically earns himself a vig, and if he miraculously dodges the bullet, a lynch. That, not taking into account the possibility he

loses

the 1v1, getting lynched today, thus creating a player that otherwise would be a mislynch who is instead not only conftown but an investigative to boot.

As a result, OnTHeMark would adamantly, vehemently oppose any plan which would create the 1v1. I can cite past games if need be, but he himself any many others should be able to vouch for this description as accurate; avoiding giving the town confscum/conftown in the form of him/wilky.

Since wilky's action did fail, and I do think wilky to be town, you can thus conclude OnTheMark is by proxy also town, and as a result earns Impossibear's spot in my locktown.

More than likely you know I am not being lynched. I have done 1v1’s before (Shadowrun) and other times and been completely fine. You clearly are either lying or deluding yourself about my meta. It isn’t my go to but you’re clearly talking about my scum meta to buddy me

Kokichi Oma:

Instead of describing what I like first, I'll start by raising why I hesitate to call him town. I was incredibly suspicious of his predecessor, and he is a skilled enough pun player to fool even those that claim they can read him, causing them to falsely clear him as town. In spite of those factors, I actually

do

hold some faith in Kaede's townread there. Additionally, I don't believe Kokichi-Maria is pun theater.

What I DO believe is that Kokichi Oma can genuinely read MariaR. I also don't believe he is lying about the read as town. Furthermore, I feel he wouldn't falsely punread her if he were pun. If he were pun, I strongly believe his strategy would be to hard-defend her, to white knight her if need be, and he is not doing that here, which is promising.

Ramicus:

I've basically explained this read already, but in short, while I haven't liked much of his content, I do like some of his more recent contributions and I feel like his interactions are not viable as pun bussing. That head-to-head is simply suicidal and I don't buy it.

davesaz:

When I started reading, I had foreknowledge that davesaz's miller claim was apparently retracted/changed into 'some negative utility' at a later point. This would explain his rather dodgy early actions and play, so I was willing to write it off as null. I would say that I would normally be heavily inclined to punread him otherwise. There is literally nothing town about him, but if I'm honest, the most daving thing is simply POE;

someone

has to be the fourth and I think he's the best candidate. Also, there is the chance he was in fact blocked N1.

MariaR:

My punread here is four-fold: Dodgy, sketchy play; setup speculation plus night action results; personal experience with her meta; trusting in Kokichi Oma's personal meta experience. Each of these, I can explain in detail.

MariaR is basically actively lurking through this game; she is frequently and consistently failing to provide pertinent game content and I can cite many instances including prod dodges which are absent in other games she is a player in. There's a bunch of posts I can quote but this is perhaps best done in a followthrough post as compiling the entire list here would make this post 20 times longer.

Setup speculation indicates we should have a pun in the investigative claims. We have MariaR's, we have the proven track from Ouroboros, we have wilky's delayed cop, we have Kaede's IC as conftown, we have Jungle's claimed ability to make another player's alignment revealed (even if he messed up on making it work), and in that pool you can reasonably expect there to be a pun.

It wasn't Ouroboros.
It's not Kaede.
I have townreads on wilky and Jungle.
Ergo, MariaR's role is likely a truthful investigative, just belonging to pun.

This is magnified by the outcome of events. Ouroboros just so happened to recruit MariaR at apparently the earliest opportunity. And then Ouroboros just so happened to die almost immediately after that. I feel the two events are in fact linked together. Yes, Ouroboros had other reasons to die, but I think that role contributed to it because pun knew what their role was.

My own experience with MariaR indicates this is far more likely to be her pungame than her towngame.

And then when you throw in that Kokichi Oma is perhaps the player on site I would most trust to be able to read her and he says she's pun, then I really think we should Maki this wagon happen sooner rather than later.

Yeah no. This is bad MariaR is town

projectmatt:

I've been a close associate of Nero Cain's since before most of the players in this game even joined mafiascum. Over the years, I have gotten to know his play intimately. He can be aptly described as a ruder, more competent, more arrogant version of Creature.

By which, I mean, regardless of his alignment, he's going to be an ass, who presents a holier-than-thou attitude. Regardless of his alignment, his charisma is dismal. However, at his base, the same core tell always works on him regardless; when he is town, he is incredibly active to the point of being almost a spam poster, providing reads which are strong, confident, and accurate. He is in your face and always has something to say with what he says being game content rather than fluff.

When he is pun, he is a lurker. Mostly just lurking, since he does produce actual content when around (just at a far more infrequent rate), but he does a fair share of active lurking as well. I Cain tell you, having known him for the years that I have, this is squarely in the latter category. He was doing almost nothing the entire time he was around. If he were town, he'd have been all over Ventriloquist as well. His list of sins is great, and I'm not sure I can even properly describe all of them because as such a long-time associate these are things I just know rather than needing to explain to others.

I haven't gotten the chance to really read projectmatt content since then, but I wouldn't need to in order to conclude pun.

That having been said, the little content I have seen indicates pun as well. For instance, the Wraith defense at day end

did

seem like TMI, knowing he was going to flip town and hoping to earn town credit from not being on the lynch wagon.

Pun, that question was asked in some form already. The role they would flip is the one they had at the time of their death.

Well nobody told ME that the question had been asked.

From that we can safely assume either the role swap had already happened (allowing pun to preserve their roles) or that Ventriloquist simply started with it and the pun valued their roles enough to let him flip with it.

It may be worth looking over Ventrilioquist's posts to see if there is any role breadcrumbs. If there are breadcrumbs present, we would be able to identify the holder of the role being breadcrumbed as pun.

Nero was lurky as scum in Necromancer too.

As a thought experiment. Let me demonstrate to you Nero Cain's meta.
This is a list of every Large Theme Nero Cain has posted in.

This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. While not two pages, that game suffered from numerous hastened deaths; having as many posts as he does there is still impressively large.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. NINE pages. (Caveat: everyone that game had more posts than normal.)
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages, and that's only from two gamedays.
This is just about one of the shortest towngames you'll find from Nero Cain.
This is Nero Cain's more typical iso once more as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Short for him, I will admit.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as a lategame replacement. Keep the timing of his replacement in mind for the amount of volume he produced.
As far as I can tell, Nero Cain was town here. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Shorter than most, but still two pages.
I'm excluding this game as Nero Cain replaced in late during the day and was killed that very same night, unless anyone has objections. If you do object and wish to count it as valid, then may I continue to point out what is more typical?
Such as this Nero Cain iso as town. Three pages.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages. And he only had one day phase to produce it, as he died N1.
Considering the length of the game, this is fairly short, but Nero Cain's iso as town still managed the feat.
I do confess another shorter iso would be this one as town.
I should technically mention this iso here as well is short, but for good reason; note the V/LA which led to him being replaced. To offset that,
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Four pages.
This is a shorter Nero Cain iso as town. It is shorter because they died N1, yet still managed over a hundred posts.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Three pages.
I am fairly certain Nero Cain is Gollum and thus this is his iso as town. Shorter at two pages, but still broke the barrier.
If Nero Cain is Gollum, This is his iso as town. Two pages, and he died N1 no less.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages, so a bit short given the duration he was alive.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Two pages, so a bit short given the duration he was alive.
This is Nero Cain's iso as town. Four pages.

This is Nero Cain's iso as pun.
This is Nero Cain's iso as pun. Multiball, to boot. Yet he still didn't post much comparatively speaking.
This is Nero Cain as pun doing respectably well. And it spanned the entire game (he was the last pun alive).
This is a little bit longer an iso from Nero Cain as pun yet he still didn't breach the two-page barrier.
This is the one and only example of Nero Cain breaching the barrier as pun I can find. If I had to suspect, multiball may play a part.
This is Nero Cain as pun across multiple day phases with a hydra partner still failing to breach the barrier.
This is Nero Cain as the last surviving pun coming close but still failing.
This is Nero Cain's iso as pun.
Nero Cain did breach the barrier in this game as pun, but it is noteworthy that game was multiball which I again suspect played a part.
This is Nero Cain's iso as pun.
So this game featured cultafia and thus I'm not sure if he started as town or not, and he did request replacement, but all the same I thought I would mention this Nero Cain iso as pun.

Not mentioned because I know he was in the game as a hydra but I don't know what his account name was: this game.

That is five years' worth of meta on Nero Cain for Large Themes.

Five years

, the last five years, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2013 (which I didn't go back to the beginning of the year on, just up until the beginning of March 2013).

Can Nero Cain's activity tell in of itself guarantee his alignment? No, it cannot; there are outliers as town where he produced less content and outliers as pun where he produced more. But it is one of the most solid tells you can have on site. If you doubt the tell, try checking out the towngames I am linking to and compare them to the pungames I am linking to.

This is thoroughly his punplay.

And as projectmatt inherited the slot, he is pun.

davesaz:

When I started reading, I had foreknowledge that davesaz's miller claim was

apparently retracted/changed into 'some negative utility'

at a later point.

The underlined is incorrect.
I stated that I'm miller. At a later point I said that my "ability" section had flavor in it. There has never been a retraction / change about the role -- it's straight Commonwealth miller with nothing else, and nothing but the flavor in the ability section.

Oh, that makes a difference then. I was under the impression from the list of claims that it had changed later in the game during a section I hadn't read.

With the knowledge it hasn't, you become a reasonably solid punread. Not as solid as MariaR and projectmatt (the Strong Punread section), but enough to have your own special category of "Punread".

Though I'm tempted to lump you in with them for this.

Punreader's analysis assumes a: that scum!Jungle wouldn't gambit, b: that town would inevitably lynch scum!Jungle after these events making it a low chance of success.

Yes, and those are safe assumptions to make as assuming those is working with occam's razor whereas assuming JUNGLE gambits as pun and that the town wouldn't inevitably lynch a pun JUNGLE is a violation of occam's razor.

I don't know if a gambit is likely or unlikely, I just know it can't be ruled out.

Nothing "can be ruled out". There is (almost) nothing which is impossible in a game. (Almost) everything CAN happen.

The job of a town player is to determine

which things most likely

did

happen

.

Gambiting is something which could have happened.
It is not something that is likely to have happened.

Ignoring the probability (rather, lack thereof) of it happening in favor of embracing the possibility it happened is thoroughly a pro-pun agenda.

The PLAN might have been for Impossibear to die, and scum!Jungle is then functionally a loud fruit vendor at very little risk.

When did JUNGLE claim the power? Was it on D1? This is something I don't know.

So feel free to correct me here, if JUNGLE announced his power on D1.

If JUNGLE didn't claim the power until D2, then this scenario you are outlining is impossible. The plan going awry? Well then JUNGLE simply has no need to claim the action.

Not claiming it loses the possibility of using it at all.

Yes, and if the power is pro-town and JUNGLE is pun...why is this a bad thing for the pun?

Having a competent mod design a quest with that degree of complexity and then allowing it to fail on a technicality when the intent was clear stretches credibility a little.

Counterpoint: this is a game moderated by GuyInFreezer. I know his modding well enough to know this is

precisely

the sort of stunt he would pull.

I suppose a mod could be that hardcore and town!Jungle could make that mistake, but it seems very unlikely.

What seems unlikely to me is you trying to find every possible reason to call JUNGLE pun ignoring all the reasons why he is likely town.

Moving on to the question of whether town would inevitably punish scum!Jungle with a lynch -- it seems that WIFOM might be king here and we might not do so simply on the "mistake".

Oh? And where do you draw the line on WIFOM? Everything could be WIFOM. So what WIFOM is 'valid' to you, and what WIFOM is 'invalid' to you? You can call anything WIFOM and I can demonstrate this quite easily if you doubt me. So what makes the possibility here be WIFOM to you worth invoking that name?

But that is very short sighted, to excuse it as human error and not a possible gambit.

No, that is called following occam's razor with a dosage of hanlon's razor:
Not attributing to malice what can best be explained far more simply with stupidity.
The simple answer is stupidity.
The complex answer requiring contrived justifications is malice based on some possible gambit.

If we look at Jungle

outside the quest info

, what would the read be?

If we look at JUNGLE outside of the quest info, the read would be solidly nulltown; there is nothing indicating pun and yet minor signs indicating town.

I feel perhaps my snark weakens the strength of my point. So to reiterate,

If we allow scum!Jungle to push another fruitless outlandish quest on town it might damage us beyond repair. Am I wrong to think it's within the mod's range to include something tantalizing as a way to punish a greedy town? In the unlikely event Jungle is really town, it would be bad to lose the potential upside, but I can't see the game being designed so that town needs the quest to win. Furthermore if Jungle is town and the quest is powerful, why would scum leave the quest giver alive?

Regarding Maria, I know we can count on RC to have invited another member to the neighborhood. We can hope that at least one of them is town. If the neighborhood generates a track result on someone who visits, it yields two conf or a town/scum dipole. I think we wait on her to see what results there are, if any.

What differentiates these two, davesaz?

You are saying to lynch Jungle on the possibility his role may damage us; you are willing to sacrifice the utility of his ability.

You are saying to not lynch Maria on the possibility her role may help us; you are not willing to sacrifice the utility of her ability.

Care to offer an explanation?

@Kaede -- quote anything from Jungle that doesn't involve the quest that is obviously town. Anything that is making the slightest effort to solve the game.

Innocent until proven guilty; the burden of proof is on the accuser.

@dave: quote anything from JUNGLE that doesn't involve the quest that is obviously pun. Anything that is making the slightest effort to manipulate the town.

>when your 2 sr's are the biggest wagon
it's Christmas time to see who I can lynch first

And yet you vote neither.

Town OTM and town you is possible if we make the additional assumption of Scum JK/Busdriver.

Or even redirector. I concluded these three roles were possible already, and I maintain that projectmatt is the most likely holder of them.

There is no scum motivation to giving the vig the Party Starter if the vig is hard townreading you (we were, fairly obviously). There is no scum motivation in NOT giving the strong willed modifier to your partner if there is a town RB. OTM claimed yesterday. The paranoia wrt to OTM makes perfect sense from someone who isn't nuts in the exact same way as me

This is enough to move Alchemist into my locktown pile, as I buy this.

AND because of RC's setup spec D2.

For the record, it was the spec which prompted me to ask the question to the mod about the ability swapper. The reason I asked was because I don't really agree with the setup speculation; if you wish to townread me, then utilizing other reasoning is for the best.

With that said, I'm going to drop an action plan for Maria shortly to hopefully turn her and her neighbor into a mason pair, so it's a bad lynch today anyway.

I maintain that any plan which relies on her being town is a bad plan, but acknowledge we can have better lynches and that the plan will at least help demonstrate her alignment when she refuses to cooperate.

I don't think you should telegraph your hide tonight because: There's probably a busdriver

I don't see why. The mod told me my Hide is equal to a Commute in NAR. This means I always hide behind my intended target. Now, if pun want to shoot my target when I'm hiding behind players that should be lynched, power to them. If town wants to shoot my target when I'm hiding behind players that should be lynched, then they would be taking that shot anyway.

Pun, do you have experience with projectmatt?

Enough to say he is one of the most underrated pun players on the site. He has an elite pungame which consistently performs quite well, yet almost nobody seems to be aware of this. I would attribute it at least in part to not being able to strongly differentiate between his towngame and his pungame.

His pungame is almost identical to his towngame in my experience, making it difficult to distinguish between the two. Yet he is an incredibly

good

town player, which translates into extreme hesitance to lynch him when he is pun because he is a master of making it look like he is a good town player when he is pun.

This doesn't mean it is impossible to read him, of course. I acknowledge I personally hold little ability to tell the difference and that he is incredibly competent as either alignment. This is one of the main reasons why I am adamant you not trust him and ignore that he replaced Nero Cain. Nero had strong evidence which suggested overwhelmingly he was far more likely to be pun than town, and projectmatt regardless of his alignment was going to make people like him because

that's just what he does

.

Pun, do you have experience with projectmatt?

Actually, can you go more into your Alchemist read specifically?

Not particularly, no. Aside from how the evidence Impossibear gives does move him into town, I have been viewing his actions and seen a player who I can see the town thought process behind his actions.

I may not agree with what Alchemist21 has been doing (similar to wilky), but I can still understand what he is doing, how he got to where he is, and trace the thought process. It demonstrates an incredibly visible, easy-to-read narrative, one which is not likely to come from a pun player. He felt highly transparent, but with just enough opaque that it wasn't out of the question altogether for him to be pun.

Knowing what his role is removes that opaqueness altogether and now I feel like I can see the full picture of his process, start to finish, thus the read upgrade.

Since there have been changes to my reads, an update:

HAS COMMON INTERESTS:

Kaede Akamatsu
Wilky
hebichan/OnTheMark
Alchemist21
Dunnstral
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

HIGHLY LIKELY TOWN:

Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) (may deserve to be higher again)
Ankamius
verylazy/Kokichi Oma

LEFTOVER:

Ramcius

STRONG PUNREADS:

davesaz
MariaR
Nero Cain/projectmatt

Absolutely none of those help in any way, do they?

Have you actually been

reading

literally any of my posts?

Your reads are bad 90% of your posts are stall posts.

You refuse to correct people on bad mechanics.

Top of NAR means I act before redirector/busdriver. It means I can’t be redirected or busdriven.

Fypov Wilky and Jungle should be conf scum and aren’t.

The only ‘content’ you have is recycling other peoples bad shit and then arranging users in a random order.

Now I am not doing this bullshit again. Jungle wilky and punreader are all scum

[OnTheMark]

Oh and look in the spoiler for why.

Wilky and Jungle have fucking guilties.

People keep suggesting impossible shit to keep Wilky town and it pisses me off.

[OnTheMark]

Reiterating this is bullshit.

If this is bullshit, you should be able to show WHY it is.

There. Happy.

And sorry for the other bit about when you show up. It did cross a line.

[OnTheMark]

I asked GiF if I could say what I want to without being mod killed. I will see if I can.

I am 99.99999999888% sure I cannot be altered in anyway I just am trying to figure out a way to demonstrate it without copy pasting my goddamn role PM.

[OnTheMark]

What you guys are saying is completely 100% correct and Wrong at the same fucking time and it makes me curl up and cry.

[OnTheMark]

I can’t claim a modifier and link to the wiki.

If I could this would be remarkably remarkably easy and there wouldn’t be a damn issue.

I know Wilky is lying because I can’t have been the source of the block. I also know I can’t be copied either.

This is fucking infuriating beyond belief.

[OnTheMark]

Pretty much my action resolved first. It’s literally the first thing the mod does.

This means I resolve before even passives do.

It’s not on the fucking wiki.

[OnTheMark]

Strongman is a passive action applied to a given player each night. Since I go first I go before modifiers. Ergo since I am the first thing the mod does the modifier is irrelevant and I don’t have to fucking ask.

[OnTheMark]

Say person A is strongman scum and submits a kill on anyone
I roleblock player a. My action completely resolves before their submission. Therefore they do not have the passive and are blocked.

Say person A redirects me to person C
I block person A.
Persons A’s redirect is ignored based on the verbiage of my role PM.

[OnTheMark]

The closest thing I could think of wiki wise is strongman strong willed NAR boosted.

[OnTheMark]

Another way to think about it is

I submit roleblock on Player A

————————-

Everyone else submits stuff and completely ignore anything Player A does rip them out of NAR

————————

[OnTheMark]

I know Wilky is lying because I can’t have been the source of the block. I also know I can’t be copied either.

Um... Whether or not this is the case, I think you missed the point of my setup spec. (If I'm missing the point of this argument, I apologize, but if the argument is a waste of time then I'll derail it now)

A busdriver can have functionally roleblocked Wilky by changing his target. He would have received no result, because he targeted a different player than on N1.

Your roleblock could be a strongman-strongwilled-dayvanillaizer-for-a-night, and that doesn't change that a different person could have a different role that interacted with wilky to produce the exact circumstances here.

~Jingle

(I'll actually read this game at some point. Promise.)

I cannot be busdriven redirected or otherwise tampered with.

My action ends before a redirectors begins.

If Wilky is town which I highly highly doubt, the source cannot in any way shape or form be me.

[OnTheMark]

Say person A is strongman scum and submits a kill on anyone
I roleblock player a. My action completely resolves before their submission. Therefore they do not have the passive and are blocked.

Say person A redirects me to person C
I block person A.
Persons A’s redirect is ignored based on the verbiage of my role PM.

I can’t claim a modifier and link to the wiki.

If I could this would be remarkably remarkably easy and there wouldn’t be a damn issue.

I know Wilky is lying because I can’t have been the source of the block. I also know I can’t be copied either.

This is fucking infuriating beyond belief.

So you block person A

Person B redirects you to person C

You resolve as blocking A?

Correct. Person B’s action never happens.

[OnTheMark]

Why is this conversation relevant?
I don't think that is a vague question at all.
I don't see any of this helping to determine anyone's alignment.
So I'm asking what is it that I don't understand.

Wilky said he was blocked.

I am and have been saying Wilky is lying.

People keep saying I could be redirected or bus driven or something and the answer is no.

[OnTheMark]

Why is this conversation relevant?
I don't think that is a vague question at all.
I don't see any of this helping to determine anyone's alignment.
So I'm asking what is it that I don't understand.

Wilky said he was blocked.

I am and have been saying Wilky is lying.

People keep saying I could be redirected or bus driven or something and the answer is no.

What about a situation in which a second roleblocker or jailkeeper exists? Jingle mentioned such a thing is possible when considering my role.

If 314 roleblockers and redirectors all target me at the same time it doesn’t matter.

My actions are before literally anything else. My action ends before those start.

[OnTheMark]

It’s literally I submit. My action ends—-

Then process submissions.

If a strongman exists it doesn’t matter as they hadn’t submitted the kill and therefore are still blocked.

[OnTheMark]

I still dont think a scum wilky comes out of the blue saying he got roleblocked after you had already claimed to block Dave, from the PoV of him scum seeing town you, he has no reason to disbelieve you.
That being said, a fair point was raised if a slow cop's target was changed midway it's possible that would end up in No Result, and if it's a bus driver and wilky was scanning MariaR it begs the question of why MariaR would be swapped somewhere.

There's also the strongwilled item given to impossibear, which makes their actions immune to roleblocks or redirections, if as OTM says is true then OTM's role wouldnt interfere with it and scum has to posses either of these 2 means to interfere with town, it's not outside of the realm of possibility that scum could have used either means to interfere with wilky.

They do if they think they can get away with it.

[OnTheMark]

Because the odds of that are pretty nil unless it is Alchemist who I already scumread.

My role PM doesn’t mention that shit so the only way I can think of is that if it is Alchemist who is already in my scum pool but the simpler answer is he lied.

At some point you’re gonna have to stop going with “what if” and go with what is likely.

It is indeed possible that we’re all town and the mod lied to us. However I trust GiF not to do that.

At some point you gotta stop doing possibilities and start doing probabilities.

[OnTheMark]

Isnt a bus drive considered bastard?

No it isnt.

@ETL
If you had my role PM you’d be in my shoes.

I wouldn’t be arguing this if I didn’t believe it.

I was dropping it but punreader brought it up. I can’t let bad theories run wild else town loses.

[OnTheMark]

It has fuck all to do with your role. Stop acting like you blocking dave and wilky failing are in any way fucking related whatsoever if a redirector exists, which it fucking does. End of story.

ETL

Yay more ETL screaming at me.

As if that is gonna ‘convince’ me. You’re literally inventing a redirector when there is no proof any exists.

Going to work.

[OnTheMark]

Yet Wilky never outed who he tried to cop because??

[OnTheMark]

Prod dodge will read at some point

[OnTheMark]

Jungle punreader wilky all scum.

Haven’t caught up yet.

Probably won’t have time before overnight

[OnTheMark]

i take it back. jungle is way more likely to be scum than impossibear.

Impossibear or davesaz is my last slot for scum

Can’t figure out the last but I am pretty sure that’s the deep wolf.

[OnTheMark]

ram & maria, with the possibility of one of impossibear/pun.

Ram is almost certainly town same with Maria.

[OnTheMark]

My gut says it’s Alchemist21 actually. Every time I read his posts they ping me.

[OnTheMark]

Jungle pun wilky Alch is my last guess before someone hammers.

[OnTheMark]

Jungle pun wilky Alch is my last guess before someone hammers.

It’s midnight I am tired desire to catch up is null and I have dr appt tomorrow

[OnTheMark]

Alchemist21 is scum

Mod have mercy on my atheist soul I am scared my townreads are agreeing with me and this might be a thing

[OnTheMark]

Jungle wilky pun Alchemist sitting in a tree S-C-U-M-M-I-N-G

Put last things first and first things last and all things can be clear to see

[OnTheMark]

How is that the slightest bit relevant when I think it's a scum role to begin with?

It's relevant because the question is "is this the mod that would allow such a thing to happen" no "is the alignment of this player X because of what happened"

The question is, what is the alignment of player X regardless of what happened.
Jungle is scum. That's my read. Whether the role is a fruit vendor or a real quest giver, Jungle is still scum. By play it's so obvious it hurts my eyeballs.

Pedit: Jungle claims to not know what the quest does. It has never been publicly revealed what either quest actually did. The person given the quest has to survive that night before they can even receive it. It's perfect logic, what kind of question is that?

+1

[OnTheMark]

Jungle either knows what the quest does and it’s a daycop or BP
Or he doesn’t know

Which is it?

And it’s never been publically announced the quest did these things.

[OnTheMark]

Also:

3.06

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE (2):

OnTheMark, davesaz

projectmatt (6):

Ramcius, Impossibear, punreader, MariaR, wilky, Kaede Akamatsu

Ramcius (2):

projectmatt, Dunnstral

davesaz (3):

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE, Kokichi Oma, Ankamius

Not Voting:

davesaz, Alchemist21

With

14

alive,

8

to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2018-06-09 23:05:14)

You want to lynch JUNGLE on the grounds that they have had a mod confirmed quest given to impossibear and since the quest failed it cannot be proven.
You dont want to lynch MariaR on the grounds that she can be confirmed later based on whether a track fails or not.
But...
What about matt who's not even arguing a roleblock, redirect or anything, but just that their predecessor didnt submit an action.
Nero was around when N1 ended, as he was here enough to post a replace out request, i struggle to believe they would just let the night go without a night action even if they planned on being replaced later. They were also here during twilight. Do you seriously believe Nero forgot to submit an action, but dont believe Jungle messed up the quest?

I’ve done this myself what is being claimed.

So I can see Nero do this yes.

[OnTheMark]

Oh my OTM agreeing with the player they wanted super dead D2 again, why do I even continue to bother with these tbh.
I guess OTM's agreeing also to not reading Jungle posts, coz that's what I was about to say about dave for mentioning stuff that Jungle never claimed

You mean being human? shit happens.

I try to fix it.

[OnTheMark]

Plan is shit.

Will never submit to not blocking a scumread.

Nope. Not happening.

[OnTheMark]

I would rather tell you and scum who I am blocking than block a townread.

[OnTheMark]

Jungle wilky pun Alchemist sitting in a tree S-C-U-M-M-I-N-G

Put last things first and first things last and all things can be clear to see

All of them have claimed actions except maybe punreader will have to double check.

[OnTheMark]

Also:

3.06

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE (2):

OnTheMark, davesaz

projectmatt (6):

Ramcius, Impossibear, punreader, MariaR, wilky, Kaede Akamatsu

Ramcius (2):

projectmatt, Dunnstral

davesaz (3):

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE, Kokichi Oma, Ankamius

Not Voting:

davesaz, Alchemist21

With

14

alive,

8

to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2018-06-09 23:05:14)

You want to lynch JUNGLE on the grounds that they have had a mod confirmed quest given to impossibear and since the quest failed it cannot be proven.
You dont want to lynch MariaR on the grounds that she can be confirmed later based on whether a track fails or not.
But...
What about matt who's not even arguing a roleblock, redirect or anything, but just that their predecessor didnt submit an action.
Nero was around when N1 ended, as he was here enough to post a replace out request, i struggle to believe they would just let the night go without a night action even if they planned on being replaced later. They were also here during twilight. Do you seriously believe Nero forgot to submit an action, but dont believe Jungle messed up the quest?

Omg someone confirmed their flavor text. That makes them automatically town.

Fact in like no mafia game ever.

For all we know GiF hates the settlement part of the game and made Jungle scum.

[OnTheMark]

Kaede there is no good option here.

The plan relies on me blocking someone.

The plan relies on me blocking a townread.

Soooo your plan relies on me blocking someone I believe to be town.

What am I supposed to do exactly?

Either way I am antitown.

I can’t block no one that fucks with the plan.

I can’t block a townread as that is by definition the antitown thing you’d be mad at me for

I can’t block a scumread as they have claimed actions.

So I can’t block anyone and must block someone.

What you’re asking is logically impossible.

The plan does not work as written.

[OnTheMark]

So given the choices of you hating my actions for being antitown or you hating my actions for being antitown I pick blocking a scumread every time.

[OnTheMark]

Kaede there is no good option here.

The plan relies on me blocking someone.

The plan relies on me blocking a townread.

Soooo your plan relies on me blocking someone I believe to be town.

What am I supposed to do exactly?

Either way I am antitown.

I can’t block no one that fucks with the plan.

I can’t block a townread as that is by definition the antitown thing you’d be mad at me for

I can’t block a scumread as they have claimed actions.

So I can’t block anyone and must block someone.

What you’re asking is logically impossible.

The plan does not work as written.

Sometimes sacrifices are needed, you need to block a townread, take your stab at the scummiest of your TRs if you must, but if the plan's interfered with we get left with less info.

I would rather announce who I am blocking than block someone I townread.

Would that work for you?

[OnTheMark]

Jungle wilky pun Alchemist sitting in a tree S-C-U-M-M-I-N-G

Put last things first and first things last and all things can be clear to see

All of them have claimed actions except maybe punreader will have to double check.

@dave already did three times

Four scumreads imho is already too many in this setup. So I don’t want to block outside this core group.

[OnTheMark]

I adamantly refuse to block a townread.

That is gamethrowing.

[OnTheMark]

Unless someone alive explicitly claims VT.

I could block there and then have the plan still work.

[OnTheMark]

Make sure Kaede agrees to the idea before claiming VT.

[OnTheMark]

Nope same problem. Damn it.

[OnTheMark]

No, a scum MariaR could easily say they tracked you to your target and shoot dave.
Likewise for a scum Dave shooting MariaR, if they know who you are targeting.

Exactly right.
It's equally important that the thread does not know who we target so that scum can't kill them, so it's not a foregone conclusion that OTM is our target.

I would almost rather you explicitly say your target is me. I am good at crumbing my targets and you know how I crumb and I have already done it once.

[OnTheMark]

If they kill me everyone wins

From game perspective my reads are out there and people can carry that mantle
It removes some of the discord
And you guys get your result because I will go somewhere and my crumbs will be findable.
Sure scum could dodge it but then that player has to claim roleblocked especially if the player has a confirmable action.

[OnTheMark]

So I blocked someone.

Looking forward to hearing who it was from you since I am not dead.

The fact there are two quests and not one means Jungle is conf scum.

The fact ETL is town means Dave did the kill or scum shot ETL.

Shooting ETL seems mindbogglingly dumb to me like okay?

Then there is the whole cop check deal that happens.

This is just confusing to me I don’t see why this happened the way it did.

[OnTheMark]

I mean unless scum can copy a power.

But then why that?

[OnTheMark]

Otm can you be roleblocked y/n

I 1000000% CANNOT BE ROLEBLOCKED IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM.
I go FIRST.

[OnTheMark]

Impossibear, Sole Survivor (

Commonwealth 1-shot Bulletproof Modified Compulsive Vigilante

), was killed Night 3.

Spoiler: Role PM

Sole Survivor

Welcome to Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition!

You are

Sole Survivor (

Commonwealth 1-shot Bulletproof Modified Compulsive Vigilante

)

.

From Sanctuary to the wasteland, the sole survivor wanders to find his mission son, Shaun.

---

Abilities:

• I WILL find Shaun:
  Your action is
  compulsive
  , unless you are prevented from using your action.
  
• POWER ARMOR:
  You will withstand 1 normal killing attempt on you.
  
• Military Trained:
  You are a vigilante. This ability will be disabled for 1 night if you shoot someone who shares your alignment or if you fail to kill your target. Each cooldown will increase by 1 night upon each failed/wrong kill.

---

Win Condition

• Eliminate all who are sided with the
  Institute

Kaede Akamatsu received a quest to help out the settlements!

MariaR received a quest to help out the settlements!

Day 4 deadline: (expired on 2018-06-23 14:31:51)

So I blocked someone.

Looking forward to hearing who it was from you since I am not dead.

The fact there are two quests and not one means Jungle is conf scum.

The fact ETL is town means Dave did the kill or scum shot ETL.

Shooting ETL seems mindbogglingly dumb to me like okay?

Then there is the whole cop check deal that happens.

This is just confusing to me I don’t see why this happened the way it did.

Did you block me? Because something caused my action to fail.

Why does shooting ETL seem dumb to you?

I am not answering whether I did or not until MariaR answers and we do the whole check bit. I do acknowledge I blocked someone.

[OnTheMark]

Should probably be the same.
What my second ability does is that anything targeting me will ALSO target my target.
And as you can probably tell i targeted MariaR last night.

Ahhh that explains the second quest. So Jungle isn't confirmed scum. I thought maybe was a lying arsonist or something.

[OnTheMark]

they were probably blocked

Impossible. The Party Starter I gave them would have made their kill ignore a roleblock or a redirect. Now, if their target were protected, that could have stopped it.

I've said this like 200000 times

(Opposite of Weak) Smash! Your action comes (Opposite of last) in all action resolution.

(Not aliens) (Opposite if Strong)! Your target will be roleblocked for the (Opposite of day)

And I asked Gif If I was allowed to do the following and he said yes.

[OnTheMark]

I blocked Alchemist21 Crumb is upcoming.

[OnTheMark]

Jungle wilky pun Alchemist sitting in a tree S-C-U-M-M-I-N-G

Put last things first and first things last

and all things can be clear to see

All of them have claimed actions except maybe punreader will have to double check.

@dave already did three times

Four scumreads imho is already too many in this setup. So I don’t want to block outside this core group.

The LAST name in the list was Alchemist. Putting it first means I blocked him

[OnTheMark]

That is if YOU roleblocked them, then sure.
Also the way you describe it doesnt mean it bypasses passives.

Action resolves first.

So that means even before submissions.

Ergo they haven't submitted the kill. Ergo they are blocked.

[OnTheMark]

I'd just do Dave at this point. Reason being is that his vig probably failed due to a doc or (Holding this back until Jungle tells us what today's quest is)

[OnTheMark]

Dave Alc or Dave Wilky.

[OnTheMark]

Oh wait...actually hang on.

ETL's vig shot is explained if ETL tried to shoot Maria and someone doctored Kaede.

[OnTheMark]

That seems like waaaaay too op thought.

Meh I'd rather lynch Dave.
Get Wilky's check tomorrow. I won't block him. I'll null block if I have to. If he lies he's dead.
Lynch Alchemist.
If we still have a game lynch Wilky.

I don't see scum anywhere else.

[OnTheMark]

@Wilky who are you copping?

@Kaede that makes a lot more sense. However, I kinda think it's Dave here. Ouroborous would have had to have visited you as an IC for the copy to work yeah?

[OnTheMark]

Or scum could have just shot you if we have a town doctor on top of all this. Like it seems too much.

Pedit: Because IMHO his reads were bad and still are.
Giving a town vig with horrible reads another shot is like extra scum KPN

[OnTheMark]

I have to go now running late for carpool stuff

VOTE: Davesaz

I kinda think it's Dave and if it's not then it is worth the confirmation of a town doc existing and then being able to save themselves and Kaede each night.

[OnTheMark]

It'll force the kill to go elsewhere as long as the duo are alive. And if it's a scum doc and they saved ETL's vig shot that's also good to know too.

[OnTheMark]

I don't think the miller really needs to be talked on and should just focus on the play of said miller. It can be a fake claim but that doesn't mean it's a scum fake claim either. Just focus on day play and if something comes up we can talk about it.

I would rather wilky claim first myself because his whole way of going at it gives me bad vibes that I can't really explain compared to dave

I think Dave can only really be scum if Maria is.

The other problem I have with the maria slot is the fact that as soon as RC recruited them into the hood, they stopped contributing altogether and have been attempting to coast on RC's townread.

PLUS the sketchiness re: the neighborhood itself:
- pmatt flipping with a night action condemns the hood, and confirms that at least one or both are scum.
- pmatt flipping with no night action at least confirms that the result was accurate.
- if maria is town, there is absolutely no reason she should not want this. "protecting" the other neighbor is nonsense at this point and serves no purpose.
- if maria is scum, there is every reason to withhold the name of the neighbor, if there even IS another neighbor, because they want to see who we shoot, so they can claim the proper partner to be the supposed neighbor. requiring maria to reveal the neighbor locks her and the neighbor into a commited claim, and allows the lynch flip and night actions to reveal whether they are lying or not. <<<< if maria is town, this should be very desirable. if maria is scum, she is going to try to avoid this at all costs.

PLUS the fake-AF "scout" bs that hs never not once been explained or discussed.

There's obviously a chance she or both could be town and we can prove it. That is exceptionally high utility for town. This is another reason she should claim who the supposed other neighbor is, because should she or the neighbor die, it still allows us to use the surviving member in PoE to narrow the pool if they are town. The only reason one of them would die is if scum is afraid of the neighborhood becoming a masonry, which they cannot avoid even by killing either of them.

ETL

I guess this makes it pretty likely Impossibear shot Maria if they still thought they never outed the neighbor.

Nope. ETL and Jingle always catch up. They'd know the neighbor. They aren't derptastic like me.

Best plan is to lynch Dave. Confirm if a doc exists that saved the D1 kill or not.
Then can go from there.

[OnTheMark]

@Kaede redirector factors in how?

[OnTheMark]

...legit frustrated.

Jungle is scum.

If we trigger the requirement Kaede = commuter = good so yay! Why would you not tell us?

[OnTheMark]

That’s why rc had to be killed obv... and impossibear must have been n1 attempt. If Maria town then otm scum qed.

Petit no the result is for before. New member does not vote on that night target.

No this is not a thing. Lol

Dave and Jungle fuck :/

[OnTheMark]

Dave and Jungle fuck :/

OnTheMark.

MariaR is mechanically confirmed to be pun.

We're talking, this is literally a Jingle-guilty all over again. She is, 100%, unambiguously, confirmed to be pun.

projectmatt had, and used, an action N2.
MariaR was the only member of the neighborhood aside from Ouroboros.
As per the mod, davesaz even if he were pun (he is) being added to the hood

does not influence the results of the night

.
The claimed results were that projectmatt did not action.

She is literally guiltied beyond guilt.

davesaz is indeed pun, and is indeed her partner, but there is no possible world where MariaR would be town.

Guess I should have caught up then

VOTE: MariaR

Sorry brain is a bit of scrambled eggs. Behind on one of my meds.

[OnTheMark]

For the record, as our vig is dead, I intend to hide behind davesaz tonight.
I would strongly recommend OnTheMark block davesaz after a MariaR lynch.

Others should action as how they best see fit.

...I kinda have a bad feeling about this.

Kaede ? Like I get it but my gut says no.

[OnTheMark]

I feel like something is wrong and have no words to explain.

[OnTheMark]

Dave and Jungle fuck :/

OnTheMark.

MariaR is mechanically confirmed to be pun.

We're talking, this is literally a Jingle-guilty all over again. She is, 100%, unambiguously, confirmed to be pun.

projectmatt had, and used, an action N2.
MariaR was the only member of the neighborhood aside from Ouroboros.
As per the mod, davesaz even if he were pun (he is) being added to the hood

does not influence the results of the night

.
The claimed results were that projectmatt did not action.

She is literally guiltied beyond guilt.

davesaz is indeed pun, and is indeed her partner, but there is no possible world where MariaR would be town.

Guess I should have caught up then

VOTE: MariaR

Sorry brain is a bit of scrambled eggs. Behind on one of my meds.

@Kokichi ????

[OnTheMark]

Kaede what do you make of Punreader’s plan?

Is it possible Jungle is just derp!Town a long with Dave and punreader is last scum scared of me blocking punreader?

Assuming MariaR is scum how bad would it be if I blocked punreader?

[OnTheMark]

I don’t see anything wrong with what you’re saying

Brain gets it. Gut is screaming something is wrong.

[OnTheMark]

Otm can you be roleblocked y/n

my legs are killing me I'm back from new york

Don't be stupid, if you mislynch me you lost the opportunity to mechanically determine Maria.

^^^^

Already has.

It seems really odd MariaR would want to be checked?

[OnTheMark]

Scum earned this imho

I feel bad about this.

Like I was right on my setup spec that RMOJ was vanilla and what was happening and I kinda went about things entirely the wrong way. I was a pretty big contributor too Jingle.

[OnTheMark]

Like I was right on my setup spec that RMOJ was vanilla

He wasn't tho?

Vanilla Fruit Vendor
When everyone acted like the quests were real