Open 734: Paris Mafia (13-player variation) - Game Over

[Almost50]

VOTE: A50

Still slightly annoyed

On another note

i claim bodyguard

Oh wait, that’s not a role, shoot.

I claim vigilante.

Perfect

MIME detected!

First

Spoiler:

We did agree your lynch was perfectly justified in the last game, because your play resulted in swaying the lynch off a Mafioso, directly resulted in outing a PR, and it worked well bc you also TR'd the other Mafioso.

Second: No Town Vig wants to out themselves at the start of D1. Your claim is this obviously fake. Bit to what purpose? Is it an attempt to bait the NK?? That'd be bad bc that's protecting the Mimes (assuming you're not).
Is it to draw a CC? Well, Mafia do need the Vig alive for a couple of nights to help them clip down the numbers.

So, the logical conclusion is you want to appear scummy so we would lynch you, and WHO wants to be lynched in this setup??

Vig target locked! Thanks you. Now let's hunt for the Mafia.

[Almost50]

VOTE: sesq

Feels good to be back. Hello guilty, faq2. Almost 50? Think I remember you? Hello to the rest as well.

Yeah, we had a couple of good games together (I remember Kraeg's Greatest Idea and The Purge). Welcome back

[Almost50]

OK, so Mime are probably Eragon & Thomas (early reads). Lady Angel has the towniest vibes of all RVS votes, and I also feel goos about Thor (one of the most dangerous scum players in multi-ball) so that's a relief. All I want is for him and GL to be Town and the Town is probably gonna win this.

Sesq is good scumm but she hasn't yet done anything scummy (well, a far fetched idea is that she is scum with lane and they're distancing already).

I;m waiting for Lalendra to come in and spew me as scum out of the blue. If he doesn't then she definitely has something to hide.

[Almost50]

*goos = GOOD

[Almost50]

I also feel goos about Thor (one of the most dangerous scum players in multi-ball)

If you think I have a rep as dangerous scum, why in the world are you town sorting me and buddying this early?

Because you are being aggressive and moving the game forward fast enough which isn't like scum!you.

As Mafia you would want to stay in the shadows a bit longer and as Mime you would not want to look like you're game solving this early (you want to be lynched AND want to avoid being NK'd by the Mafia).

The way you've been posting makes you a prime NK target for the Mafia, and a much less likely lynch for the next couple of days, so you're not a Mime (and I'm openly Mime hunting as a priority because I don't want to lose having lynched non-town aligned players. That would suck).

Tldr, your play doesn't make sense as Mime and is unlikely to come from Mafia you, so you're Town. Any objections?

[Almost50]

Why DT?

SPAM. Not a single game-related word. That's someone who wants to look scummy in order to be lynched.

[Almost50]

ISO him and see for yourself. All 4 posts. Tell me how you feel after you do.

[Almost50]

We can -of course- lynch DT, and if he flips Mime we shoot both Fink and Eragon (Mafia will agree to shoot there as they also don't want the Mimes winning).

So,

if DR flips Mime, Town Vig shoots Fink and Mafia shoot Eragon.

[Almost50]

*DR = DT .. DAMN!

[Almost50]

Page 1 Mime claim more likely to come from Mafia than Mime I think.

Btw, this really bad reasoning. Mafia don't want to be lynched, but they don't want to be shot by the Vig either. Acting scummy so as not to get lynched = painting a mark on your back to be shot.

ALSO, let's say he's Mafia and acted this way and didn't get shot. He sure IS going to get lynched once the Mimes have been shot down (unless he's counting on them to be both lynched and then they win and he still loses).

[Almost50]

Anyone else wanna claim Mime? You won't get lynched, but you sure as hell are going to get NK'd. And the best part is we only need to nail one if you for you to lose.

[Almost50]

No! That's a NOOB MIME read. He wants to get lynched, but he made it so obvious he won't be lynched. Mafia may also do it IF we didn't have a Vig. Having a Town Vig rules out the Mafia possibility even for a noob. Got it?

[Almost50]

Why DT?

SPAM. Not a single game-related word. That's someone who wants to look scummy in order to be lynched.

Hmmmm. At first I thought it was just a triple post. If you are confident that he is a mime, and I like your reasoning, wouldn't lynching him be a bad idea? If you are incorrect about his partner then all it takes is one misslynch to give them the victory.

I don't really follow the reasoning here for pushing a wagon on your mime read...

I didn't push a wagon on him and I'm not voting him still. I said to lynch him and Vig Fink/Eragon when Fink voted him.

[Almost50]

n/m, Thought you were voting DT. Looked at your ISO and that is not the case.

Basically the same Q goes to thor though - why vote there when there is a decent case (at least for this early) that he is the mime? It feels like you just want to jump on any wagon at all....

OK.. so first part is explained. I won't respond to the 2nd now (since it's directed at Thor) but I very much understand his vote. I also understand your concern, so it looks very much like you could a townie too.

[Almost50]

Did you actually think that I was truly claiming vigi?
My claim is obviously fake becuase it is fake

Yes, but

why

claim an existing role is the question here. What

if

someone took you seriously and decided to CC?

I mean, I can obviously give you he benefit of doubt here having just seen your play recently, but -if you're town- you need to learn from your mistakes and stop making scummy moves for no apparent reason. You know what I'm saying?

[Almost50]

That's my point, my friend. You claim BG and that's a joke. You claim an existing role and that's a scummy move. What you, I or anyone else thinks of it is irrelevant, for there is a chance -no matter how small- that someone will take it seriously and CC, and then you will of course say "but I was joking". The same as "But I wasn't comfortable putting Scum Tor @L-1 for fear he might be accidentally hammered". You look at it from your own PoV and assume everybody else must see it the same way and that is the problem I'm addressing.

Your defense may have convinced me, or -at least- made me doubt my read on you. After all we only have 2 Mimes so I must be wrong about one of you or Fink. That said, I am giving you some good advice for future games. Whether you take or not is of course your own choice.

[Almost50]

why do you oppose the Mime wincon exactly?

Hmmm... this actually made me reread the role PMs on the wiki, and it does seem that the game does

not

end upon the Mines achieving their wincon. Better safe that sorry though, so..

@MOD: Does the game end or not if both Mimes get

lynched

?

Per the setup review thread, only one faction can win. Once a win condition is met, all other factions have lost and the game is over.

[Almost50]

Believe me.. I've seen worse things happen on and off his site. Someone may not see your entire post, but only see that line quoted in another post. Some scum may even purposefully "misquote" you on D2 or D3 and exclaim why you were still alive after you claimed, this calling for your lynch. Just do not assume anything and try to refine your jokes is all I'm saying. Plus, my case on you did get the game going anyway, so that's something even if you still think it was fabricated BS.

[Almost50]

why do you oppose the Mime wincon exactly?

Hmmm... this actually made me reread the role PMs on the wiki, and it does seem that the game does

not

end upon the Mines achieving their wincon. Better safe that sorry though, so..

@MOD: Does the game end or not if both Mimes get

lynched

?

Per the setup review thread, only one faction can win. Once a win condition is met, all other factions have lost and the game is over.

@Thor: There's your answer then. We lose if the Mimes win, so it is natural that I (and FA_Q2 whom you were originally asking) would be opposed to their win con.

[Almost50]

you are telling me that's not pushing a wagon? is pushing a wagon mean something different over here?

Yes. It means starting one and/or motivating players to vote there. I did say you're Mime but I didn't promote your lynch (why lynch a Mime??). However, Fink voted you AFTER that (FA was RVS voting you already), so I reacted by "or we can lynch ST and when he does flip Mime shoot Fink/Eragon.

Then Thor joined the wagon after I said that, and I thought he was alright testing if you were Mime, which implicitly meant he agrees to shoot Fink/Eragon if you do flip Mime.

I am no longer sure what Thor's vote on you was for though, because he seemed confused and probably thought Town could still win with the Mimes (or after them to be accurate). I mean, Town!Thor could still want to lynch the Mime under that assumption, but also Scum!Thor would be happy to lynch/shoot someone not on his team, so the vote is NAI.

[Almost50]

We can -of course- lynch DT, and if he flips Mime we shoot both Fink and Eragon (Mafia will agree to shoot there as they also don't want the Mimes winning).

So,

if DR flips Mime, Town Vig shoots Fink and Mafia shoot Eragon.

Lynching mime helps mime's wincon. so do you really want to lynch a supposed mime first?

i am not sure if i agree with your plan.

My plan is a reaction to someone else's vote on you. Personally I do

not

want to lynch you, and I'm not voting you. However, other people are, and if the lynch goes through I would rather be ready with the night plans in order.

[Almost50]

@DT: Read my posts PLEASE. Eragon and I had a debate about what made me think he might be Mime. He explained his PoV and I explained mine and we came to a semi-agreement that I might be wrong and he might have picked the wrong role to claim as a joke.

I concede -now- that I could see Town!Eragon making that post (his first), so my "Mime read" on him has dropped significantly, but you not reading the thread is alarming to me. It feels as it you're looking for legit stuff to poke to appear townie more than you actually questioning anything genuinely.

[Almost50]

This game is going too slow there's hardly anything for me to comment on. Are we waiting for replacements?

[Almost50]

@Fink: Mimes aim to get LYNCHED. If they could accomplish that on D1 they don't need to worry about the Vig. "Act scummy --> Get lynched" is what a noob Mime would think. I do not expect a NOOB to go about the consequences beyond that point. Planning for multiple moves hardly makes someone a NOOB.

Mafia do NOT want to get lynched. A noob Mafioso would NOT try to act scummy in the first place. If they do (in order to avoid being lynched) then they are NOT a noob either. NOOB NOOB NOOB. A Newbie who has not yet developed the sense to plan ahead for multiple steps and will only go for the next move is what I'm talking about.

FTR, when I play Jester I never manage to get myself lynched. When I played Martyr I couldn't get myself NK'd (I wonder if that'd be the case knowing I'm currently one of the most popular N1 kills on MS, but I was a NOOB back then and didn't know how to draw the NK unto myself. Hell I couldn't even decide who was a killer, since if I targeted one who was doing the kill on that night they would have killed me instead of their intended target).

[Almost50]

Good. Now tell us what you think and ask some questions please. If the game doesn't get going I'm going to be totally withdrawn

[Almost50]

there's hardly anything for me to comment on

oh yeah specifically this

we play to read and find scum, not just write as much as possible

VOTE: Almost50 here for now

Sigh! "This" never fails!

VOTE: innocentvillager

P.S. Not gonna explain "this". All I'm gonna say is innocentvillager has just claimed scum with Fink/DT/Eragon (in that order, so the most likely p is FINK, and Eragon is really unlikely)

So, we play to "read".. yet when there's nothing to read it is scummy to say so? We play to "find scum", what when nobody's been posting anything of substance and/or AI it is still my job to find scum based on "void"??

I'll be damned if this doesn't flip scum. My vote is stuck here until this slot is dead "one way or the other".

[Almost50]

Good.

Now tell us what you think and ask some questions please

. If the game doesn't get going I'm going to be totally withdrawn

i don't like this attitude but the fact that you're vocalizing it makes it less suspicious so im torn on that

Also, you missed the bolded and highlighted, so revisit the subject if you will. How about a read list?

[Almost50]

And because he's hard mime-reading me for my page 1 read and that's therefore the most interesting thing happening in the game so far, as far as I'm concerned.

I think it gets even more interesting when you learn I've just retracted that and replaced it with a scum read on you as innocentvillager's partner.

[Almost50]

A50's push on the obviously fake vig claim is so bad it almost has to come from a mime.

OMG! I'm soooooo busted. I dare you (or your partner) can shoot me tonight to confirm it.

[Almost50]

A50's push on the obviously fake vig claim is so bad it almost has to come from a mime.

OMG! I'm soooooo busted. I dare you (or your partner) can shoot me tonight to confirm it.

WAIT! You're not innocentvillager! Hmmm... now I'm confused. What are the odds BOTH scums got replaced out and Fink is just playing scummy??

[Almost50]

Wait I thought fink/innocent were buddies?

I guess we get to that after we've lynched IV. Then with his flip there will be a better view for all to act upon.

[Almost50]

Wait I thought fink/innocent were buddies?

I'm everybody's buddy.

True. And that's why I'm keeping you in every Mafia/Mime formation I can.

[Almost50]

@Thor: I'm not at all angry. It's a legit read. I'd be willing to sheep you today, but I'm willing to wager on his alignment tbh. I also still maintain DT's gonna flip Mime though, so not voting him for the lynch. Starting to doubt my read on Fink, have no solid reads on lane/GL (they're both good at holding their cards close to their chests), sesq (non-existent yet in the game).

I am also still not sure if my problem with Eragon relates more to his play style. The rest (Lady Angel/RockyHorror/UnrealSeal/FA_Q2) U don't even have meta on, I remember FA_Q2 a a mod, but not as a player. Unreal I;ve played with once and I don't even remember what game it was (it may have been me under an alt though). LA &RH I'm pretty sure I have never met before.

This is more or less where I am eight now, so make a case on someone I'm not Mime reading and I'll follow.

[Almost50]

What's your take on my Lane case?

lane is always hard to read for me. His town game looks very much like his scum game (from what I can remember, because it's been quite a while). I'll probably ISO him next to see if I would vote him. After all, we do need a wagon somewhere (a wagon that is more than 2 votes I mean).

Ok.. just checked my notes and lane is totally null. He

could

be a goon, a mime or a townie with no "extra points" for me to favour one over the other. But -of course- that's in a vacuum and ignoring all other reads, because if IV is scum I don't see lane as his p and if DT is mime I don't see lane as his p either.

[Almost50]

I haven’t seen town!A50 at all,

That's an outright lie and you can't possibly have forgot this already. Furthermore, these are excerpts from that particular game made by you about me:

Your still pushing me becuase if you backed off
1) it would be incredibly wolfy
2) it would conf. Wolf you
3) it would make you be the top wagon

And can you not see the open wolfing A50 is pretty much doing?

A50’s sole deathtunnel is incredibly wolfy, for the past few pages he has done nothing except tell people to vote me and call me scum, ALL WHILE NOT VOTING ME HIMSELF.

Need I add that while you were also a townie that you:

A- Saved scum from the lynch on D1
B- Pushed and directly resulted in outing a TPR
C- Got SR for your action not only by me, but by other TOWN players, including both TPRs
D- In response, you SR me and paired me with a TPR as the scum team, and had the other TPR as your back up lynch

Do I need to go on or do you concede your play in general is both scummy and OMGUS'y, you have always seem my play as "wolfy", and -most importantly- that the first quote (you saying you never saw town!me) was incorrect. (I have yet to read posts beyond that one, so maybe you mean yo9u have never seen scum!me, but -all the same- you have seen me play exactly like this in a game that has just recently ended and it seems you learned nothing from it (about my play).

[Almost50]

@Thor: The case -in a nutshell- is: If you actively FoS 2-4 players early on D1, and -at least- one of them is scum then one of their p's will push on you. It is something I learned from experience over a long time. It;s almost similar to the "jumping off the wagon after it takes off: tell to me, i.e. it cannot be easily explained and is mostly overlooked by most players, but it's a way I've developed to get a lock scum read on D1 (as opposed to gut, tone, and "we need a lynch")

[Almost50]

Anyway, having thought it over..

IF

lane flips Mime, Sesq would be his likely p. I don't trust their cross voting of each other and I could see that as coming from a Mime team (obviously to get half the job done) or from a Scum team (merely distancing).

I will join the DT wagon now to see how it goes. I sure hope that I'm wrong about him and he will flip scum (i.e. not Mime)

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

[Almost50]

@Eragon: I'd very much like to not get this thread clogged with "back and forth"s between is two, but you're really really .. frustrating to converse with. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SHOW YOU HOW YOUR PLAY IN GENERAL IS INDEED SCUMMY AND ANTI-TOWN, but you just won't concede to the fact.

The fact you were only one of 4 votes on Fromage hardly vindicates you, for 2 reasons:

1- You were the one who asked me to unvote SCUM!TORANAGA, whom I said to lynch anyway despite his VT claim AS IT WAS/IS THE SAFEST PLAY BY TOWN. And if it makes you feel better I do take the blame for listening to you there. A lesson I am starting to realize how important it was.

2- Fromage (4): Toranaga, Eragon, Wh4t, Poseidon (L-1) <<< This was the Fromage wagon at it's peak. Who were scum in that game? Toranaga AND Poseidon. So only you and ONE OTHER TOWNIE out of SEVEN voted Fromage. You were playing FOR SCUM and AGAINST TOWN, as shown by the majority of TOWN VOTES THEN.

Now I dunno if you're playing obtuse or really are, but here's what I'm saying: A, B, C and D are meant to show you are living in a fantasy world of yours in which you are a brilliant player. In the real world you're far far less than brilliant, so KNOCK IT OFF.

Now, if "someone with a brain" thought about it, they "might" have guessed that I'm "probably" crumbing a PR and ASKING YOU TO STOP BEFORE YOU DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN. Well, if someone did have the thought cross their minds I'd be happy to tell them it probably isn't true.

As for Town!Me, OMGUS'y you .. etc.. You responded to yourself:

I had you as pretty much lock town early game, until other people moved up from null and you started to push me for getting a TPR.

THIS is the DEFINITION of OMGUS. I started pushing you so you switched your read on me from LOCK TOWN to SCUM.

I was saying I haven’t seen town!you this game, becuase in Twin Trap I actually had you as a solid townread until you went reachy, this game, I haven’t seen anything towny from you.

And that's probably because I started pushing you here based on your FIRST POST, so your OMGUS was triggered by my entrance to the thread.

Thank you very much for proving each and every point of mine about you. Feel free to go back to your fancy dream of being an awesome player, and it's totally not your fault to be voting with scum and defending scum, because .. you know .. you're the most skilled scum hunter in the whole damn world still and it was the mod's fault to have handed Tor and Poseidon the scum roles and BuJaber/Fromage the TPR roles. Totally HIS fault and not yours. You're awesome, dude.

P.S. You're lucky I'm a cat person. Right now; the only thing I like about you is your avatar!

/Rage rant over

[Almost50]

DoubtingThomas has requested replacement

OK, so if this is bc of RL issues then it's obviously NAI. However, if it's the push on him then he definitely is NOT a Mime, so I feel a little better about my vote on him now.

[Almost50]

also in hindsight i realize nobody in this game has played with me before

Jeez! Boy should I be glad I still have a working memory despite the fact it's been used for over half a century!!

Let me remind you of:

(1) Being scums together in Surreptitious.
(2) We were both town in Tit for Tat.
(3) You were scum and I was town in Kill All Townies.

Not to mention I modded you in Diffusion of Power

At least tell me you remember the name!

[Almost50]

I'll never forget you Almost <3

LOL. Only time will tell.

I mean, I still think you're scum that should be shot, but I promise I'll remember you if we're ever in a game together.

So you think I'm

scum

. So why be "shot" and not "lynched"? Just out of curiosity.

[Almost50]

Well, you said "scum" this time and ,ost players (including yourself in #167) use that to describe MAFIA and not 3P (Mimes are basically Jesters as you yourself had pointed out), so I had to ask.

[Almost50]

@Fink: Mate, I do have a wiki page with 42 games listed. There are many not on the list (I don't list games I replace in, games I get wacked on N1 in, games that I haven't been myself (i.e. not active enough).. etc.). Feel free to stop by my wiki and/or do a search on my other games.

Current iteration: Sesq & lane for Mime, IV & DT for Scum. (I might as well add X & Y for Vig & Watcher, respectively )

^^ Practice makes perfect. If I list enough pairings I'd sure have something to brag about post-game and say: I was right!

@Rocky: In light of the above; I do indeed have a problem with your vote on Sesq, but I might be overly paranoid.

Explanation: Most of you seem to be playing this game/setup in the traditional scum hunting fashion. My problem is you would simply vote someone you feel scummy, but you won't think much as to WHY they are being scummy. Is it "intentional"? Are they actively trying to avoid the lynch or are they actually trying to bait votes unto themselves? THIS is why I keep flip flopping actually. I see someone who looks scummy to me, and I think to myself: "What if they

want

to look scummy?". It could also be a play style thing too (many a player think that of mine), and I could go on listing more of the "mess" that goes through my mind.

[Almost50]

Almost, you realize that what you're accusing me of neglecting (what if someone

wants

to look scummy) is the reason why I haven't expressed a willingness/desire to vote for you?

I do, and I'm happy it's the case. I simply would very much rather be NK'd than lynched.

In a recently ended game I replaced in at the start of D2 and it didn't take me much to attract the NK on N2,

despite the fact I was a claimed VT

. BOTH the Mafia AND the SK targeted me for the kill that night. Feel free to ISO me in that game, see how it went, and how Raskolnikov and Ausuka (both TPRs) treated me, and you just might understand, but if you still don't then you will after this game is over

[Almost50]

Also check my play in the last game with Eragon (#43 on my wiki) and see if you would have SR/TR my play there at the start if D1, on the middle of it, and at the end of it. THEN you can read what happened on D2. That is if you really want to figure something about me.

[Almost50]

Sesq is at L-2. Given the existence of mimes in the setup should we be careful about putting someone at L-1 that could potentially self hammer and end day early?*

I don't think it really matters at this point (from my own PoV). If Sesq is a Mime then lane needs to be shot. I am OK ending the day at this point but I'll wait for others to confirm there's nothing much more to say on their respective parts.

[Almost50]

I dunno.. Mafia are content with the game status. Mimes are hoping for the deadline lynch to go through (can you see Sesq resisting her own wagon at all?). I have no idea why the TOWN players are so reluctant to even post. I doubt we will get anything new in 3 days time, and I feel it best if we did get a lynch to get some info.

OF COURSE I do see your point though. You would rather have the info/reads developed through the players posts/content and are hoping to get that in the next 72 hours or so. That's why I said I won't put Sesq @L-1 unless everybody agrees to it.

Btw, how come your join date was on 2010 yet your first post was the one to join this game? (Just feeling bored and looking for a chat on just about anything really, since this is the one and only game I am playing right now) *Sigh*

[Almost50]

Deadline is suspended. A new deadline will be announced when both replacements that are currently needed are found.

Good! Now I really would appreciate people voting on either DT/Sesq to state why they think their choice is better than the other.

I'll start: I explained before that the Sesq wagon is almost unopposed, i.e. there is no real resistance to it, and that includes Sesq herself (who opted to vote someone new than join the opposing wagon to survive). This -to me- indicates willingness to get lynched, i.e. she could very well be a Mime.

OTOH; while DT's replace out might be NAI, it could also be because he felt like he was caught for the wrong reasons. Many a player would get upset being pushed for reasons they don't as proper grounds to be pushed over, and when these players are indeed scum the frustration leads to them replacing out.

At any rate, even if DT replaced out for RL reasons (i.e. the replacement itself is NAI) I don't see him doing that as a Mime being wagoned. If I was Mime and was being wagoned I would NOT replace out even if I didn't have time to play. I'd just be happy to be wagoned and will get out of the game soon with a chance to win.

The tlder is I see a greater-than-random chance for Sesq to be a Mime, and a much less-than-random chance for DT to be a Mime, and I simply do NOT want to lynch a Mime today.

[Almost50]

OK, I have yet another "one of those bright ideas" (seems I never run out of them). How about we NO LYNCH? We go into the night with a Vig and a Mafia factional kill and both sides should be shooting for the Mimes. Once a Mime has been shot the other is removed too and it becomes a normal game of Mafia.

The downside is if Mafia decide to hunt for TPRs instead, but that can be dealt with by assigning the kills, and if Mafia do not shoot the proposed target then I'd be alright siding by the Mimes over them (it's like "I came to you first and you refused to cooperate, so it was your choice").

OK, maybe that won't appeal to many of you, but it's a thought that crossed my mind and I had to voice it out just in case.

[Almost50]

Nero Cain replaces Doubting Thomas

Welcome old friend. At least that takes care of the lurking problem.

[Almost50]

Why does this matter to you, why ask?

Because it tell me if we can win with Mime or not. If we can, then I won't mind lynching them both (in fact it would be much better than lynching Town). As it turns out; lynching Mime works directly against the Town (and Mafia) win cons.

[Almost50]

So you no longer think he's a mime?

No, I don't think Eragon is Mime anymore.

[Almost50]

I'm also a little worried that she's a

mine

We can

dig

that and try to

extract

some more info if you like! (Yours truly, AP)

[Almost50]

isn't that just...idk...common sense?

It was to me, until GL asked FA why they were opposed to the Mime win con. Only then did I realize that the wiki page doesn't make that clear enough and that it could be the case that Mimes can with with "someone else".

As for Eragon, he simply doesn't want to be lynched and is fighting against it.

[Almost50]

You also assuredly don't have my support in the idea of game throwing for the Mimes if Mafia on Night 1 shoots somewhere random.

I wasn't gonna "game throw". All I was going to do is hunt for Mafia before I hunt for the Mimes. Right now I was more concerned about

not lynching a Mime

. By choosing to "side by Mimes" I would lynch anyone scummy, and you know what that means? It means I'd be forcing the Mafia to shoot for Mimes in subsequent nights lest we get them lynched.

In my mind, lynching a Mime on D1 makes the game virtually unwinnable for Mafia because they'd have as much pressure to shoot the other Mime as they would regarding the two PRs. It also makes the game harder for Town because we also don't want the other Mime lynched. So, I'm being nice to the side "we know how to deal with" and offering a "temporary truce" until we get rid of "our mutual enemy" before we turn on each other as usual. Them breaching the truce doesn't actually work in their favour at all is all I'm saying, and was hoping they'd realize that themselves.

Anyway, let's see what happens and then talk about it on D2.

[Almost50]

Jingle replaces UnrealSeal.

Hmmm.. this player list id getting stronger by the minute. Here's for hoping this is a Town slot though (otherwise, we're in deep deep trouble).

@Nero: (Aside from me bc that's a given) who do you thing are MAFIA here?

[Almost50]

Oh, you're voting FA_Q2. My bad.

Do you have any other suspect, just in case you are wrong about either of us?

[Almost50]

Do you have any other suspect, just in case you are wrong about either of us?

your sole scumread is town so I think you should care more about your reads than mine.

Well, let's put it this way: I am more familiar with your play and I am considering my read on your slot based on your play. However, I am not sold on FA_Q being scum, so I am reaching for you to try and find mutual ground. Do you have any suggestions?

[Almost50]

VOTE: a50

Aggressively serious vote, am caught up, can discuss when not mobile.

Good vote! I also suspect this guy, but I've been a victim of conf!bias before so I'm reluctant to vote there myself.

[Almost50]

Oh yay!

Are you going to cheer from the sidelines all game or do you intend to do something useful??

[Almost50]

Do you have any suggestions?

umvote me or I'll join Jingle.

Now, I know you know me as much as I know you. Do you think that was the best way you could have phrased it??

And

you still haven't given me an alternative target

to vote for, so I am on you because I -at least- know you're not a Mime (bc DT replaced out while being wagoned).

[Almost50]

Why do you need me to feed you information?

Because if you are town then we're a team.

Since when do you need hand holding in scumhunting?

Every now and then I do need advice and especially so when we have a game like this where almost everybody is holding their cards too close to their chests.

Doesn't make me mafia either.

Not necessarily, no. But it if it's between you and Sesq then I'd rather lynch you, because lynching Mime!Sesq is giving her 50% of her win con on a silver platter, while lynching you (assuming you are a townie) doesn't hurt us that much.

Unless you prefer to live and lose over getting lynched and win.

[Almost50]

Just think of how much more towncred you'll get when you join me before I explain myself.

And you have an explanation too!! SWEET!

[Almost50]

What are your townreads?

I thought you said you were all caught up!

[Almost50]

@Jingle: Thor won't vote me w/o a case. Try Sesq and -maybe- lane!

[Almost50]

OR... feel free to present your case already.

[Almost50]

@Nero: Oh, well. At least I tried.

@Jingle: Mimes are the "less important" faction of the two? Tell me more. Also, tell the crowd something they don't know already, because I already said I was explicitly hunting for Mimes on D1.

Like the only "fresh news"/new perspective you brought to the game so far is TOWN STILL WINS if all killer roles are dead. That bit I didn't know of, and will have to think about overnight.

[Almost50]

If we lynch one mime, we then stop lynching and rely on Vig v Mafia. Annoying as this setup is, it's much better EV than risking an entire game loss on a single mislynch.

And the Mafia shoot the Vig and then they decide the outcome of the game. Great idea. Next.

[Almost50]

Like, if I was Mafia and positively identified the second Mime after one was lynched I wouldn't shoot them until we're in a 2-1-2 situation or something.

[Almost50]

Mimes, additionally, have the hamper that once their wincondition is a real threat (one of them has been lynched) we can mine that player's ISO for hints as to the other mime. It's not quite the same skillset as associative tells with a flipped mafia player, but similar enough that we will be working from a position of increased information BEFORE there is an opportunity for them to win.

I'll reiterate. Assume the Vig got shot. You then did identify the second Mime. Who says Mafia will have to shoot the Mime in this situation? If Mafia keeps shooting Town they'll end up winning anyway, even with that Mime still alive at endgame.

[Almost50]

Thank god for true hero's like jingle

I am the Hero that Arkham deserves.

Jingle replaces UnrealSeal.

Here's for hoping this is a Town slot though (otherwise, we're in deep deep trouble).

The super funny bit is: This post is going to be used to justify a scumread on me in 3... 2... 1...

Nah! I'm just going to watch you burn yourself.

[Almost50]

@Jingle: Why do I feel like you're being manipulative?? First; we're NOT discussing the scenario of "after we lynch one Mafia" here. This is about the game theory from the get go.. no one has been lynched yet.

As such, if I was Mafia and I identified the Vig I will shoot them. If the Watcher catches me then I'll be lynched and my p will shoot the Watcher the next Night. It would still be a win-win situation for the Mafia that way.

HOWEVER, if the Vig

claimed

I would probably consider not shooting them. Why? Because I would be counting on a Mime to block them. The Watcher will stay silent until we are about to lynch the Mime, and then they will out. We will shoot the Watcher first and keep one Mime busy blocking the Vig still. And EVEN if we manage to identify the other Mime the situation still works perfectly for us.

Like, it is OBVIOUS if we lynch a Mime today he game will become MAFIA sided from that point on, but

only if the Vig is outed.

If not, it becomes Mime sided, unless you do intend to go with the "we don't lynch from then on" in which case it becomes MAFIA sided. Why? Because the game was designed with the Town having TWO kills, one of which is by the lynch. We forfeit that for several days and we are giving the game to the side that started off with one kill of three and ended up with one of two.

Your game theory is seriously flawed I can't believe it's coming from you!

[Almost50]

VOTE: Sesq

@Sesq: Congrats on almost getting your immediate goal (of getting lynched) done. I am now forced to vote you to get the wagons even, and I think it's slightly more likely that you would get lynched over me.

[Redacted] I'll leave this till later.

[Almost50]

[Redacted] I'll leave this till later.

You're at L-2 with just over 24 hours to deadline. How much "later" are you talking?

Twilight, maybe?

[Almost50]

VOTE: Sesq

@Sesq: Congrats on almost getting your immediate goal (of getting lynched) done. I am now forced to vote you to get the wagons even, and I think it's slightly more likely that you would get lynched over me.

[Redacted] I'll leave this till later.

You'll probably be the Lynch. So you should come out with it

Why am I probably the lynch? Are you thinking of switching your vote??

[Almost50]

That would be scummy as hell, considering you were all for a Sesq lynch and not at all interested in mine earlier.

[Almost50]

considering you're leading wagon

I'm not. We're tied. This is how the VC looks like (with Aris not voting):

Almost50 (5): Eragon, Jingle, Nero Cain, RockyHorror, Sesq,
Sesq (5): lane0168, innocentvillager, GuiltyLion, FA_Q2, Almost50,
Nero Cain (1): Thor665,
GuiltyLion (1): Fink,

Aristophanes,

[Almost50]

I mean, let's think about it: When did I become a major lynch candidate? It was after a series of replacements that brought in both Nero and Jingle (for DoubtingThomas & UnrealSeal), and while Unreal had no pressure on him DT certainly was being pressured hard enough.

It is also worth noting that while I was addressing Eragon I phrased my post in a way that could be interpreted as crumbing a PR (not confirming or denying this).

What do Mafia want? They want to identify the Watcher then the Vig. If I claim Vig I'm probably safe, but then Mimes would know one of their blocking targets. If I claim Watcher then Mafia will shoot me, and Mimes don't really care.

So it follows that if

the real reason

I'm being wagoned is to get a claim that both Mimes AND Mafia would be on my wagon (for Mimes, the second best thing to them being lynched is to identify a killing role to block).

So, what am I saying? Apart from Eragon (who has been on me all game and even before I ever said anything) all the other 4 are [rime suspects. For me, I', pretty sure Sesq is a Mime. Rocky has been smooth all over game I can't really say I'm sure what alignment he is. Jingle and Nero both lean Mafia to me, but Jingle more so.

I'll have more to say about this "when I feel like it", but this is where I stand for now. I still maintain Sesq's is likely partner is lane. His threat to vote me is nothing but "more pressure in hopes to get a claim". He still prefers to lynch Sesq over me.

That's it for now.

[Almost50]

Jingle and Nero both lean Mafia to me

What's your reasoning for this?

It was explained within the same post. Basically I think the pressure on me is to get a claim, and this comes from both Mimes and Mafia alike (for different reasons though). DR (Nero) was under serious pressure, yet he sunned out, and Nero (his replacement) also fought against his wagon hard, so he's definitely not Mime. Knowing Nero though I would give him a reasonable chance being Town (based on his own play and disregarding DT's) because Nero is OMGUS'y by nature.

What I can't understand is why Jingle pushed me this hard asserting I was scum when (a) He knows me well enough, and (b) He said he was all caught up, so definitely did read my posts.

Furthermore, Jingle is very good at setup spec, and his plans seem more pro-Mafia to me than anything. "Let's not worry about the Mimes until we've lynched one" basically gives the MAFIA an easier route to lynching anyone that's not them. Then "If we lynch a Mime we stop lynching altogether" deprives the Town from it's

main

weapon in any given Mafia game: The lynch. In this game we have 2 kills and the Mafia have only one. Forfeiting the lynch is giving away 50% of our kills.

The Vig shoots "blindly" while the Mafia know who's not Mafia, so chances are the Vig might be hitting Town (or Mime) while they can concentrate on shooting TOWN.

There was also this little gambit I had set (albeit it being of a small chance of succeeding) which is assigning the Mafia target. It was in hopes the Mafia duo are both inexperienced or not paying enough attention and would somehow forget about the Watcher when they think of the NK. The Watcher would have automatically been on the Mafia target to catch one Mafioso if that's the case.

Jingle has not only shown awareness of this, but has explained why the Mafia shooting an outed Vig was a bad idea (I maintain I would totally sacrifice myself in exchange of both TPRs if I was Mafia and my p was still alive though), and while being aware of the mechanics isn't scummy in itself it's the way he explained it to the masses that makes me iffy. I mean, WHY draw the Mafia's attention to it even if there was as little as a 5% chance of them not realizing it already? I mean, it could be argued that Jingle was talking precisely of the Vig, but saying it like that even the least competitive Mafioso would realize it applies to any "known" target of theirs.

If someone wants to boil it all down to BoP then I won't mind calling it just that. There's a certain way you would expect Jingle to think and play (regardless of the accuracy of his reads) and when his play seems way below par it probably is scum driven.

[Almost50]

Aiming the watcher (and to a lesser extent, the vig) is a terrible idea, because publicly aiming a watcher means scum know exactly who not to shoot and the mimes know exactly who not to roleblock.

Except I didn't aim the Watcher? In fact I deliberately "forgot" to make a mention of them at all! For all practical purposes an inexperienced/inattentive Watcher would have missed this "option" far more likely than the Mafia would have missed the existence of a Watcher!

[Almost50]

@Jingle: while you replaced in after I was NK'd in Pine's "Project Pinecone" I was still following that game until it ended. There's also a 3rd thread we share where I can see your posts and thus can get a feel about your thoughts from your arguments. It's not a "game thread" but I sill am not sure if being more specific is still breaking the rules, so I'll stop at this.

[Almost50]

There was also this little gambit I had set (albeit it being of a small chance of succeeding) which is assigning the Mafia target. It was in hopes the Mafia duo are both inexperienced or not paying enough attention and would somehow forget about the Watcher when they think of the NK. The Watcher would have automatically been on the Mafia target to catch one Mafioso if that's the case.

Aiming the watcher (and to a lesser extent, the vig) is a terrible idea, because publicly aiming a watcher means scum know exactly who not to shoot and the mimes know exactly who not to roleblock.

Except I didn't aim the Watcher? In fact I deliberately "forgot" to make a mention of them at all! For all practical purposes an inexperienced/inattentive Watcher would have missed this "option" far more likely than the Mafia would have missed the existence of a Watcher!

Ftr, I still think the potential beauty of 443 is worth keeping you around for a day. But wow.

Hell, this was waaaaaay after the fact.

When I first proposed the "Vig shoot X and Mafia shoot Y" I ommitted the Watcher talk on purpose.
Then you came in and explained it, so IF Mafia were unaware of the fact they are now.
I thus explained what I was doing and why I omitted the Watcher talk.
Your response is I did mention the Watcher in that last post which was explaining why I

didn't

make a mention in them before???

Like..
="Eat these cookies. They're yummy"
-"But they're made with peanut butter and they're allergic to peanut butter."
="Hell, you blew it. I was hoping they wouldn't notice and would choke on it."
-"Well, they cannot not realize when you've already mentioned it."

WHAT IS THIS?

[Almost50]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

[Almost50]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

Your reads are equally strong? I thought your mimeread on Lane was just based on interactions with Sesq. If that's true, that ought to be a weaker read since we don't have a Sesq flip.

I had them linked together as early as the top of page 2:

Sesq is good scumm but she hasn't yet done anything scummy (well, a far fetched idea is that she is scum with lane and they're distancing already).

I was "more to it" on page 8:

Anyway, having thought it over..

IF

lane flips Mime, Sesq would be his likely p. I don't trust their cross voting of each other and I could see that as coming from a Mime team (obviously to get half the job done) or from a Scum team (merely distancing).

So, I think I had a "semi-conviction" that the two are of the same alignment way before I decided Sesq was a Mime because of the way she fought (or rather didn't) against her wagon. They're like "interchangeable". If X is Mime then Y is Mime where X is either and Y is the other in no particular preference.

[Almost50]

Like, if I'm the Vig and either of them flips Mime I'm definitely shooting the other. I'm probably gonna get blocked for this declaration though.

[Almost50]

my standard scumplay is to literally forget who my partners are and setup spec in the most protown manner I possibly can. And what's more important is that you know that firsthand.

Wait! I'm confused. Are you admitting your setup spec here was sub-optimal? Because if you think what you did here in this game was "the most protown manner you possibly can" then you're saying your play her coincides with your scum play in general!

No matter.

VOTE: lane

[Almost50]

look at the effort Lane is putting into defending himself.

I don't see it. All I see him doing is arguing with Thor and ONLY Thor.

[Almost50]

Sesq would be more likely to get lynched if the Lane wagon goes nowhere.

Which is a win-win for them in the foreseen future. Whichever of them gets lynched in 50% of the job done.

[Almost50]

Almost50 was killed Night 1. He was a

vanilla townie

Sesq was also killed Night 1. She was a

Vanilla townie

Day 2 starts now

Deadline is Wednesday, September 12 at 5:30pm EST.

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