Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!

[Keyser Söze]

Hello team. Let's find the 3 mafia goons.


I've found the first one:

VOTE: Saudade

[Keyser Söze]

Anyone played this setup before?

I.e what’s the best way to play it... does hypoclaiming help town or scum?

And while we’re all saying hello, what are your opinions on how to deal with lurkers.

[Keyser Söze]

Thanks GMB, recommendations noted.

(And yes I agree, you don’t earn any town points from me).

[Keyser Söze]

Anyone played this setup before?

I.e what’s the best way to play it... does hypoclaiming help town or scum?

And while we’re all saying hello, what are your opinions on how to deal with lurkers.

please Please townread me

This was a page one question intended to be answered before we enter serious/non-RVS gameplay.

You shouldn’t see it as an attempt to look ‘townie’: it’s as non-alignment indicative as say a player asking if there is scum day chat - why are you being lazy/shortsighted?

[Keyser Söze]

Why would I think that question is alignment indicative and that it would win me town cred?

In what universe do I win town points via those ‘LAMIST’ questions?

I’m not missing the point, I’m struggling to see how sesq is reaching for that scum-narrative.

[Keyser Söze]

Are you saying GNB is suspiciously being overly-conscious about being t/read for a townie?

[Keyser Söze]

“can you at least agree that it's a valid thought process to have?”

Northsidegal - I’ve already stated it was a lazy and shortsighted opinion to have. Unsure of the word “valid” though.

[Keyser Söze]

I think it is invalid and will stop talking about it.

[Keyser Söze]

Are you saying GNB is suspiciously being overly-conscious about being t/read for a townie?

Did you answer the question NSG?

[Keyser Söze]

Sorry, miss-read your post x

[Keyser Söze]

I don’t think we have played a game together.

[Keyser Söze]

I don’t think we have played a game together.

Irrelephant11, do you have an early teammate suspicion brewing... between me and cesq?

[Keyser Söze]

Oh okay 'cause originally I thought Sesq was just asking you to "please please townread me" in a genuine way
I see now what was meant

Ah yes, that could be what he meant and I’ve overreacted over the whole thing

[Keyser Söze]

Wow yay a townread (nsg)

Well you could say she’s alot more talkative here compared to our last game

Open/expressive vibes are present so far.

[Keyser Söze]

I want a rough agreement before we begin that all lurkers (who are harmful to town, regardless of alignment) should be replaced with active players.

Given the setup we have no cops, and catching scum with the watcher is very difficult... I think we’ll be finding scum the ol’ traditional way through analysing posts/interactions/votes.

[Keyser Söze]

Anyone played this setup before?

I.e what’s the best way to play it... does hypoclaiming help town or scum?

And while we’re all saying hello, what are your opinions on how to deal with lurkers.

please Please townread me

This was a page one question intended to be answered before we enter serious/non-RVS gameplay.

You shouldn’t see it as an attempt to look ‘townie’: it’s as non-alignment indicative as say a player asking if there is scum day chat - why are you being lazy/shortsighted?

What? Asking if there's scum day chat would be an entirely useless question since you can just skim through the role PMs and find the answer yourself. That would actually lean more scum imo since it would seem like a pretty shitty attempt at a dumb-tell. I don't think it would be too unreasonable for someone to town-read you for trying to strike up conversation, or to think it's just a facade by that same reasoning.

I forgot we’re in an Open game obviously.

I should have given a different example.

I don’t wanna discuss whether my early question was alignment indicative anymore though, why are you getting so excited over it? Do you have any charged feelings over anything else?

[Keyser Söze]

That’s your first post...?

VOTE: Reundo

[Keyser Söze]

Your entrance was hideous. Your second post lazy too.

It made me uncomfortable for the following reasons:

- choosing to chip in with an irrelevant snippet over a non-issue (does it even matter? Is cesq town for saying this, is my reaction scummy/irrational?) what was the goal of your post... to say I am a liar? to say I am scum?
- failure to see how I think arguing over non-alignment/irrelevant items are a waste of time... but still wanting to start it all back up again...
- presuming "defensive"/""driving discussion away" is scum alignment indicative (my action was pro-town). Discussing whether I think I could gain town cred for post #13 is laughable and inane.
- me forgetting that this is an open set-up RE: scum day chat is a talking issue...?
- "I don't think it would be too unreasonable for someone to town-read you for trying to strike up conversation" is this you disagreeing with me or you saying I am scum, or both?


Now tell me why town-me can't think your entrance can be hideous and lazy (you called me "weirdly defensive").

Tell me why town-me can't regret making post #13 in the first place, and that we should move on swiftly.

"sorry to disappoint but I don't really have any "charged feelings" about anything else".. tell me why that shouldn't frustrate/intrigue town-me.

(if you can explain to me scum motivation for all three points I'll be more convinced of your scum read of me. please make your reply more coherent than mine )

[Keyser Söze]

GNB your next post must be game-solve-ry

[Keyser Söze]

Oh, I get it. Yeah that was just because I was talking more to Keyser than to you - since he was the one who asked about hypoclaiming

@Keyser did you know what hypoclaiming was when you asked?

I do now and won’t be discussing it anymore

I simply wanted to know if there was an effective way of playing this setup, but don’t wanna talk about it anymore. It’s filling up the thread needlessly.

[Keyser Söze]

Pedit: how can I write anything gamesolvery when I don’t think a majority of the players have even posted????

My bad, I thought you said you’d be looking at the “serious” posts so far. Must have been the other burger guy

[Keyser Söze]

You seem eager to shut down the few things we have to talk about - there's not a lot else AI yet, and it's not like the game is too long or something, so why shut things down so?

Also, my question is potentially AI. So you didn't know what hypoclaiming was when you asked?

I wanted to discuss it on page one, and page one only. I don’t want D1 to become hypo-claim-gate.

In my eyes nothing I said/asked about it will help me solve the game, so I’m not going to discuss it further.

[Keyser Söze]

I also don't want to discuss whether or not we should hypoclaim

I do want to know whether or not you knew what it was when you asked about it

Comments from two players revealed to me I did not understand the full measure of hypoclaiming in an open setup game. I think I already knew the essence of it though, through previous second hand sources. However, as explained previously (and now the last time), the main motivation of my initial question was to see if there was an effective way of playing this setup (and not thrusting claiming down everybodies throats).

[Keyser Söze]

You seem eager to shut down the few things we have to talk about - there's not a lot else AI yet, and it's not like the game is too long or something, so why shut things down so?

I need to correct you there. I am only shutting down myself talking about h########g.

I am not ‘shutting down’ the whole playerlist from talking about it. Neither am I forcefully shutting down everyone from discussing AI items.

I’m actually encouraging it (talking about your t/read of NSG)

Trying to get non-setup talk from GNB.

Ascertaining the strength/sincerity of Reundo’s scum read of me.


Agree of disagree? Otherwise your post is a miss-rep, whether intentional or non-intentional.

[Keyser Söze]

You seem to think you know why I'm asking this, and suggesting my question is therefore bad. You don't know why I'm asking this, though, clearly, so maybe just let me play how I want to
I know trying to shut down conversations you find unfruitful is something you do as town, but it can still just be really frustrating and unhelpful to those trying to read you through their own methods

Did you know what it was before this game? yes/no is all I need and then I'll explain and we can all move on

I can’t remember, but if you have a reason to scum read me why aren’t you sharing it with the playerlist? I am a viable wagon right now...? Early D1 needs wagons

[Keyser Söze]

I merely acknowledged and thanked him for his recommendations (to basically only claim if you have a guilty). This sentiment was echoed by a couple others.

I did not want to chat about all his formulas, that’s not mafia to me.

[Keyser Söze]

Can remember playing with him (he was town I was scum I believe) and he obliterated me. Could be on MS or other mafia website. Super quiet start so far from him... he hasn’t ‘arrived’ yet.. I thought town him would take lead today.

[Keyser Söze]

Yup, just dug up the game, he caught me as early as my first few posts God that game was painful.

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah that's fair
I'm pretty much over it as much as you are
Talk to me about Dunnstral

Was your vote for him not RVS? Didn’t realise there could be more meat to it? Guy’s only made one post

[Keyser Söze]

Detached? I’ve got my finger in every pie so far

Waiting for the main course still though.

[Keyser Söze]

Gonna re-read sesq’s post again later. Don’t know if we’re friends or enemies right now

[Keyser Söze]

Miss-repping what I said.

I don’t give a fuck if you all want speculate past page 1 about the setup or best way to play it.

But I won’t be. That’s pre-game talk and shouldn’t dominate early game progression.

Bad reason, bad vote. I am in no way obstructing town to discuss “forbidden” topics. I don’t understand how you get to scum-keyser after that limp scum case. I hate the timing of this vote.


Will vote for you when I’m on my laptop.

[Keyser Söze]

@irrelephant i changed my mind it was less clear in post but i dont like making post edits

@keyser its more complicated than that

Curious to hear more mate, ‘cause it sounded flip-floppy to me (will it depend on where the wind is blowing?)

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: 2 7 1 8 281828459

[Keyser Söze]

Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I like how he looked at everyone.

Which observations from Reundo strengthened your good feel about him? (“Like”)

I don’t have town points on him yet.

[Keyser Söze]

You don’t get to label it nuanced and towny looking that’s our job.

Tell me later if the picture becomes clearer, because I keep reading it but still haven’t grasped your motivation.

[Keyser Söze]

The 3 simple reads Reundo expressed did not fill me with the same confidence.

He’ll have to provide a few more deeper/visceral reads before I click the like button.



RE: “panic” - what is scum-me so panicked about? I still don’t understand how ‘scum-keyser-wanting-to-keep-forbidden-topic-to-page-1’ is an actual thing...? Show me why you think that a scum player does this (versus a town player). For what gain?

Moreover, explain to me why a player concerned with “classified information” can only come from scum (and not a townie who personally does not want to discuss the setup past page 1?)

[Keyser Söze]

I don't believe that you can't do any of the above as town

Ok, you're not as close-minded as I first thought But your list of scum tells are still terrible

In quick reply to your wall:

- town can call their own posts non-alignment indicative when accused of being scummy.
- both town and scum can ask if there is day chat.
- a town player can show concern if they think going down an avenue will be unproductive.
- a town player can be very concerned about being put in "bad light" for unjust causes.
- a town player can stubbornly push to try to change the subject if they think it won't help find scum.
- townies can make dumb mistakes and provide incorrect examples.
- town can "attack" the player attacking them.


Do you have any thoughts of other players?

[Keyser Söze]

Ausuka, Poseidon and Dunnstral really need to start posting in this game. Going to take a break.

[Keyser Söze]

HI GNB, just trying to put together the two following statements in my head:

Keyser if you haven’t played wih sesq before from what I rmember sesq has a laizefair attitude and tone to their posts and keeps to themself or atleast that’s how I rmember his playstyle looking

Although to be fair I played scum with them I think the last time I played with them

Have you played with town-sesq displaying the same "laizefair attitude and tone"/"keeps to themselves" or was that just scum-sesq?
Or are you saying his playstyle is not indicative of alignment...?
Didn't quite understand your 'defence' of him... if you agree he is indeed showing signs of his scum-meta.

I think keyser is being a bit stiff on all the sesq stuff

In your previous games with him, or this current game: do you think it would be rational to expect for a townie to be "stiff" in reaction to sesq's posts?

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: northsidegal

I guess I'm about null here? Like, there's scumhunting in her ISO, but I guess something feels off about it. It's like she's pursuing GNB but she never really, like, follows up past pressing on one specific point and then doing the same thing to Irrelephant? Maybe this is just like playstyle and I'm reading too much into it but I feel like town having a seemingly fairly strong scumread there is likely to, like, try and drive a wagon early there and see how people react to that?

Good observation. I agree that NSG has been scumhunting very softly so far (not even one vote yet?). But perhaps nothing has pinged her scumdar very strongly yet. Something to keep an eye on.

Spoiler: Sesq

their posts are a rollercoaster ride to the point where if they flipped red I'd be actually impressed with the acting. also I don't really see the scum motivation exactly for saying "oh i tr you nope jk i scumread you"- it's so convoluted that I think the simplest explanation is that they're just town tbh.

I personally wouldn't jump to town lean/read yet. I wanted sesq to open up about their s/read of me, because right now I'm wondering if he actually realises his scum read/vote of me is not actually supported with anything tangible, and not possessing the town-humility to unvote (...states reasons why I'm town, but then posts "vote stays") Didn't like him describing his own play/posting as "nuanced", as if he's super aware of it (that's probably just a pet-hate of mine though). He remains near null for me. Let's see if he can share more solid thoughts/reads.

Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)

First thought is that I like 91 - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in 101; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

I must put my hand up and admit the development of his scum read does look town-iesh But I cannot get past him saying "Why is Keyser wanting to limit the forbidden topic to page 1?" as if that was scum alignment indicative. I'm not convinced 2.718 is town yet. I'd like him to explain what he meant when he presented this narrative about me being scum-in-panic-mode...?

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Keyser Söze

looks to be genuinely scumhunting? I guess I could see how he's being defensive but I don't think it's scummy to be defensive tbh. Also I kinda get where he's coming from w/ Reundo. I think he's wrong about 2.718 but like when somebody comes into the thread like that with a case you don't understand at all it's understandable that you would vote for that person.

I think you're the first person to understand my defensive disposition this game. Well done. Can I jump in your pocket?

Spoiler: Irrelephant11

I think I kinda understand where his tr on nsg is coming from in that she was being gamesolvy? In general I find his posts as, uh, "adequate" more than anything else. I don't exactly scumread his approach but it's also not that towny and I don't get why he's fixated on Dunnstral specifically; what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?

If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.

Spoiler: Reundo

I kinda dislike his entrance. Like, with Sesq and Keyser, I can see both sides - I don't think keyser's opening was LAMIST but I can totally see how somebody could see it that way. I almost feel like he's trying to push Keyser? but holding back for some reason. I don't see how it's really supposed to be scum-indicative for someone to dislike their posts being portrayed as lamist. The whole scum daychat thing appears to be kinda irrelevant? Like, I don't see the argument that Keyser as scum for some reason uses scum daychat as an example of something NAI whereas town!Keyser acknowledges it's NAI and moves on. What could the scum motivation ever be for lying in such an insignificant way? I also don't get why it's scummy to say "this is NAI" when someone pushes you for things you think are NAI. I also don't see how it's scum motivated to stop talking about his sr on Sesq as scum; I don't think scum would really mind repeating the same thing over and over at all? And why does scum!keyser pretend to forget about hypoclaiming? Like I might just be being stupid but I don't understand this at all.

Yup yup yup. Wouldn't mind some more pressure on Reundo. I don't know what and why Reundo is arguing. I realise I'm an easy player to provoke, but he's got to start looking at the whole playerlist, and be less fixated on this scum-day-chat/"defensive"/hypoclaiming/"driving discussion away" scum theory non-sense. It's arguing over fluff which is concerning. Even scum-me would be laughing at his scum case on me.

[Keyser Söze]

its because i changed my mind but i dont like providing reasons why i scumread people because i find the reactions more interesting

your behavior is really bad but i dont know if its scum bad or town bad. leaning the former

I can accept a townie adopting a playstyle whereby they wait for reactions... however, please now share your conclusions of the reactions from your s/read of me.

[Keyser Söze]

We end up at 4 people alive but 1 person is confirmed town (watcher) or there's a cc

So it's not worse

We have a watcher no matter what and a base 1/3 of finding scum is in fact worse than 1/2 bass chance of finding scum

Unless you’re talking about something else I’m not reading because this doesn’t exactly communicate the idea clearly

I mean it's not worse than a regular game at 3 people alive

----

Keyser I don't think I caught you in the game we played, not sure why you think I should be "taking lead" today either

If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.

This is bad preflip stuff and you have to jump to a lot of conclusions to get to this point - also it's not warranted at this time

VOTE: Sesq
This is a good place to put a serious vote

weird choice of posts to share comments on:

- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote

[Keyser Söze]

okay it feels like nobody gets that post which is fine because i could have formatted it better. i said "yeah hes probably town" and the last words were "wait no, i think hes scum." and previously i have seen productive things out of scumreading without explanations so its something i try to use, although devotion to the ideal should be contextual

the main problem i have with his play is that it feels like he is walking into the game with a heavy amount of rigid thinking over what can and cannot be discussed and how things should or should not go. i think this is a scum playstyle because in rigidity you can form solid ideas to build off of that dont require the sort of improvisational fervour one needs as a scumplayer without strategy. that said the goals are seemingly cryptic and i dont really understand them, and it could be a weird fusion of learned behaviors influenced by past results in games, but i havent played with him before so i dont know. feel comfortable on it for now.

Hey sesq, problem is I can see both scum and town being frustrated with you if you’re “scumreading without explanations” - how do you differentiate the “reactions”?

[Keyser Söze]

I'd rather be weird than scummy

I meant weird in a suspicious way (not towny).

I’ll wait for your full catchup.

[Keyser Söze]

weird choice of posts to share comments on:

- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote

Can you explain why this is suspicious?

You've ignored some of the more pertinent (AI) moments of the game so far to share observations of 3 areas I'm not sure will help you find scum.

Plus, curious to see your naked vote explained (it's not RVS, as you said it's "serious").

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser do you think it's true or not that Dunnstral was responding to everything said to/about him?

I don't think he has...(?). But there's not much to his ISO yet. He needs to catchup and post some relevant thoughts.

[Keyser Söze]

Sure - I just mean the list of things he talked about were all responses to things said to/about him

Ah ok - well, you were the first person to name drop him (bring direct attention to his slot), but he hasn't addressed your suspicion yet...?

[Keyser Söze]

I mean, sometimes people disagree on what's AI, I don't think that makes 2.718 scum.

Wise words which I agree with. Willing to put that whole mess behind me, as I ended up arguing over fluff myself.

[Keyser Söze]

Ausuka, is your vote on Irrelephant11 RVS/now serious?

Looking at Reundo next...

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Reundo

[Keyser Söze]

I’m not gonna bother making a readslist yet as more than half the players haven’t even made 10 posts.

RE: Dunnstral, yeah his entrance has been underwhelming but not worth a vote yet, as I think he owes us a catchup and thoughts on everyone.

[Keyser Söze]

I see nothing that is worth my attention.

You expressed many null reads in your recent reads list, why not engage with them?

[Keyser Söze]

by "detached" i meant that his rigidity was detached, its like he wasnt really thinking but just banking on his own logic

Still don’t understand what you’re saying
Can you go one more level deeper in explaining it? Are you saying I am being tactically close-minded/stubborn?

[Keyser Söze]

Sounds like Kop knows I’m town, that’s a relief

Not sure I buy into NSG’s “staccato sentence/comma” theory - unless you can clearly show Kop only posting this style as scum, I think it’s too reachy for my taste.


I actually liked Toranaga’s entrance, but where’s the vote?


I can see / clearly read Volxen’s posts, but don’t feel like they’ve opened up yet (free flowing posting). Feels too laboured/restricted at the moment.

Irrelephant11 throwing his vote around is consistent with his last town game with me... do you do this regardless of alignment?

[Keyser Söze]

I was looking to start a wagon, and Reundo seemed lynchbait-y enough that some scum might jump on after it had three votes
That didn't happen, so I'm wondering if that makes him scummy (partners avoided him) or if this game is just this game

You’re probably reading too much into this. This game has zero traction and minimal interactions.

I keep coming back to the thread hoping to see us on page 20 but it’s the same few players talking to each other. So far an unhealthy start to D1

How can we kickstart it?

[Keyser Söze]

mm I think I want Dunnstral to know he's being scrutinized
he tricked me in lylo last time we played together so prolly he already knows that anyway

Noticed you gave Dunnstral a defiant “town” read.

You think he reacted well to your “scrutiny”? Why is he town?

(If we can’t scum hunt, we can at least hunt town).

[Keyser Söze]

Can we get some pressure wagons? This game is getting boring.

I would have expected you to personally vote someone here... do you not like any of the current wagons?

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: volxen

[Keyser Söze]

Kop is playing with some confidence and precise conviction - I believe I am t/leaning this tone.

[Keyser Söze]

Is everyone here or are we still waiting for catchups/replacements?

[Keyser Söze]

volxen/sesq/271 all fine lynches

I could case them all if I had the motivation to do so

You gonna add your case on Volxen while there is a wagon on him?

[Keyser Söze]

@volxen

Are you saying that those three players are scummy for contributing to the apathy/lurking that festers in this game? Or are you just pissed off for being s/read; being our first wagon?

[Keyser Söze]

Welcome Worst! Great to play with you again. I won’t be online til this evening probably so will catchup and answer any questions later.

[Keyser Söze]

Will go through Sesq’s posts as they are lead wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

Sesq re-read (only 15 posts, and how many of them are scum-hunting...? )

please Please townread me

People consistently call me LAMIST so no hard feelings reading his remark about my early question.

you're right. if you were scum you would have at least tried to phrase it differently. and you're not new. also; town tries hard to look like town too. so theres that

after reading further its clear (i hope i dont come off as too rude) that keyser is entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way. nothing you have said has really made any sense and ive changed my mind. vote stays

For me, this is where it began to get very hard to understand Sesq (you could label his post as contradictory or unclear).

@irrelephant i changed my mind it was less clear in post but i dont like making post edits

@keyser its more complicated than that

Sesq explains that he changed his mind half way through expressing his read on me (hence the 'contradiction', as he's posting as he's reading and revising in real time...?). OK...

apparently having a nuanced opinion means you're flip flopping
except for the time i did do that. in a post. whats so wrong?

Sesq has the audacity to call his post as "nuanced opinion".

its because i changed my mind but i dont like providing reasons why i scumread people because i find the reactions more interesting

your behavior is really bad but i dont know if its scum bad or town bad. leaning the former

So Sesq doesn't like explaining his scum reads... (is this consistent with Town-Sesq?). Sesq scum leans my "bad behaviour".

the main problem i have with his play is that it feels like he is walking into the game with a heavy amount of rigid thinking over what can and cannot be discussed and how things should or should not go. i think this is a scum playstyle because in rigidity you can form solid ideas to build off of that dont require the sort of improvisational fervour one needs as a scumplayer without strategy. that said the goals are seemingly cryptic and i dont really understand them, and it could be a weird fusion of learned behaviors influenced by past results in games, but i havent played with him before so i dont know. feel comfortable on it for now.

Still focused on me... and I'm still unsure whether what he believes is alignment indicative is actually scummy. I unfortunately don't understand his suspicion of me.

@irrelephant it's not JUST the "stop talking about it" thing, it's the general amount of rigidity. but if this behavior is cohesive with what you've previously seen from him, s' enough for me

UNVOTE:

Sesq stands down from his vote on me, after Irrelephant's meta-defence of me.

Yeah, i can see that

VOTE: volxen

Sheeps onto volxen.


Frustrations with Sesq:
Sesq needs to scum hunt. There is no pro-active sorting in their ISO. Where are signs of these other reaction tests? Was I the only one?
Sesq needs to look at each active player. Ok, he's shelved me to a side, but where are his thoughts on everyone else?
Sesq acknowledges they don't have any strong scumreads, but what has Sesq done to remedy that?
Sesq has only discussed slots that other players have challenged them on.
Sesq has found it hard to clearly express their thoughts or engage someone directly.


Conclusion:
At the moment, if Sesq is town, they aren't giving me much material to defend them with. I can see why there would be votes of them. For some reason though, I want to give Sesq a chance to open up (given the stuttering development to D1).

[Keyser Söze]

I’ll vote Sesq if that’s the lynch

Hey Irrelephant, I'm gonna go the WIFOM route sorry: do you think scum-Sesq would have a bit more survival/verve/urgency in them?

[Keyser Söze]

HI GNB, just trying to put together the two following statements in my head:

Keyser if you haven’t played wih sesq before from what I rmember sesq has a laizefair attitude and tone to their posts and keeps to themself or atleast that’s how I rmember his playstyle looking

Although to be fair I played scum with them I think the last time I played with them

Have you played with town-sesq displaying the same "laizefair attitude and tone"/"keeps to themselves" or was that just scum-sesq?
Or are you saying his playstyle is not indicative of alignment...?
Didn't quite understand your 'defence' of him... if you agree he is indeed showing signs of his scum-meta.

I think keyser is being a bit stiff on all the sesq stuff

In your previous games with him, or this current game: do you think it would be rational to expect for a townie to be "stiff" in reaction to sesq's posts?

Annoyingly, we never got GameNBurger's reply here.

GNB defended Sesq... with their "laizefair attitude and tone"/"keeps to themselves"... but then said they were actually both scum that game...

[Keyser Söze]

@mod any chance of a deadline extension?

this is already the towniest motherfucker on the planet

Are you just excited TW has joined, or is this t/read real? (I don't think he's done anything majorly town / sheep worthy yet).

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrelephant - yeah gonna try and work an alternative wagon as we head into the deadline

[Keyser Söze]

Sesq isn't a terrible lynch, but the way it built up didn't make much sense either. It seemed mostly based on their play here not lining up with their town meta, which sort of makes sense but unless their play here is similar to their scum game it might just be NAI. A lot of players have talked about their lack of motivation in this game, and it's debatable how much of this is genuine or just an excuse but it's wide-spread enough to where I can see Sesq just not being at their A-game this game. Just looking at this game specifically, I'm struggling to see a definite scum agenda to their play. I'm annoyed by their limited scum-reads and coasting behavior, but at the same time they clearly don't care about the impression they give off and they're not super motivated to start a counter-wagon, even going as far as to town-read volxen. It almost feels like they're playing to get lynched in some aspects, which honestly does make some sense as a scum play-style, but I'm kind of iffy on it.

Pretty much where I ended up on Sesq.

[Keyser Söze]

Top scum read Keyser Söze. I really didn't like his attack on Reundo's first posts, particularly post 51. It was over the top and came across as an attempt to get the pressure off himself (although the pressure seemed to be dying down at that point).

It was over-the-top and defensive, but that demonstrates how much I hated how that whole "driving discussion away" from hypo-claiming scum narrative.

Would you not agree my persistent (and emotional) stand to not engage discussion about my page 1 question would actually do the opposite of 'get the pressure off himself' (as it was the very thing that pinged many players). I could have just talked about hypo-claiming and the setup for the first 10 pages and not stirred up any bad attention.

[Keyser Söze]

i am going to create a very unexpected wagon that nobody will expect

Don't post this then run away for another 48 hours.

What are you doing? Offer up some thoughts/reads...

Do you realise you will be lynched leaving it this late?

[Keyser Söze]

@Flicker

When is the actual D1 deadline?

[Keyser Söze]

Why was the fact that Reundo joined in the conversation in his first post such a problem for you? You asked him a couple of questions which seemed reasonable enough, then after realising it had been his first post you voted him - for that? Before he had a chance to answer you.

In that moment I thought it was scum-Reundo trying to dig up something I felt was non-alignment indicative. I concluded it was an awkward/weird angle to come into the game as town, hence the quick vote.

Why did him not having "charged feelings", after just two pages, frustrate/intrigue you? Why did his second post seem "lazy" to you?

RE: "charged feelings", as I said earlier I was paranoid he was scum finding it hard to chew on anything meaningful, and instead chose to nibble on fluff: open game/hypo-claiming/scum day chat.
RE: lazy, just the way he was equating defensiveness = scummy.

And no; if you'd just talked about hypo-claiming and the setup for the first 10 pages you would definitely have attracted attention.

Well.. maybe 10 pages was bit of an exaggeration (but it did linger too long for my own liking), but if I was scum I would have definitely been more passive and helpful to deflect votes/attention from myself.


In the end, I realised I was the person to blame for all this fluff/mess, so those scum-feels slowly faded. Reundo has since then been sharing thoughts I too share, so he has redeemed himself IMO, and is no longer a threat but a teammate.

[Keyser Söze]

Mod notes

- @Keyser Soze: The deadline in this vote count and the first post of the thread are both current and accurate.

I thought we were getting an extension? x

[Keyser Söze]

Does the last sentence feel forced to anyone else, or am i just mis-interpreting it?

"in the end, i realized i was the person to blame for all this mess" feels forced, like "i accept responsibility but in the most silver-tongued way possible"


"he is no longer a threat but a teammate" like, ive actually never seen anyone say this. "he isnt a threat now, hes a teammate"

i could be reading much to deep/wrong/could just be how keyser posts.

Take whatever I say as how I feel



Please no quick hammer people too. Otherwise I am out.

[Keyser Söze]

@Flicker - a hammer is not necessary correct? Just the player with the most votes gets lynched?

[Keyser Söze]

You also alluded to volxen being a town-read earlier -- has your opinion changed since then?

Kind of a townread yeah, I think more importantly for me is that I didn't like the way his wagon built up (after you, there is no discussion and people aren't able to explain what it is they actually agree with)

Do you still hold these feelings?

[Keyser Söze]

Getting the counter claim and lynching scum on D1 is worth it.

[Keyser Söze]

volxen, the floor is yours.

You have 1 hour, 48 minutes to solve the game.



P.EDIT ok, no counter claim. Good point.

[Keyser Söze]

Incredible work regardless if we nailed maifa or the townwatcher

[Keyser Söze]

If this flips scum we have two great wagons to look at on D2: volxens and sesqs.

I'm off x

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Keyser Söze]

Master Reundo won big town-cred from D1. After his awkward examination of me (once scummy, but now forgiven), Reundo changed up his focus and gave us a tour-de-force in delivering the Volxen lynch. Here are the 3 killer posts:

volxen - His post-RVS introduction was pretty pointless and actually did nothing to add to the discussion. I get I might be kind of a hypocrite since similar things have been said about my introduction, but it seems even more exaggerated in that the distance between the post he was responding to and his actual post number were literally pages apart and that all he said was basically just paraphrasing what northsidegal said. A lean scum for me.

I don't really understand the town-reads of volxen. Everything he's posted seems like surface-level scum-hunting based mostly around points that have already been brought up by others, and as a whole it seems like he's much more interested in garnering why player X scum-reads player Y than providing scum-reads of his own. I'm more worried about him than 2.718 at the moment.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: volxen

I don't really understand why the volxen wagon died down the way it did. The only town points he got was from northsidegal for being contradictory, and while I can sort of see where northsidegal is coming from it doesn't feel like a particularly strong town-read, and the contradictions run much deeper than mere activity. Looking back on it, post #254 is a lot more petty than I realized. I could see why some of the posts volxen mentioned could be viewed as active lurking, but to not put any more thought into players than "oh, they're active lurking, they're probably scum" is incredibly lazy and narrow-minded. It actually feels like he's afraid of contradicting himself, as if scum-reading someone for doing X means he also has to scum-read everyone who does X, and I'm struggling to see how town can be so close-minded. He gives himself a lot of town points for "having reads and trying to game solve" while completely ignoring that 2.718 made an entire reads list, and the least he could've done was acknowledge that fact and explain why 2.718's reads list was lazy/active-lurking/whatever instead of trying to sweep it under the rug and hope no one notices.

His recent trajectory isn't much better either. 2.718 seemed to be his biggest scum-read, but when northsidegal started town-reading him volxen didn't even bat an eye or seem to care at all really, not even an acknowledgement akin to "well, I guess you have a point on 2.178", and he seemed too eager to hop onto a counter wagon as soon as the opportunity opened up. He also said he was going to update his readslist tomorrow on Friday, and he still hasn't followed up on it. On one hand I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was busier than he intended, and I ended up posting later than I meant to once as well, but part of me feels he's just not bothering anymore because the pressure's been shifted to Sesq instead.

Sesq isn't a terrible lynch, but the way it built up didn't make much sense either. It seemed mostly based on their play here not lining up with their town meta, which sort of makes sense but unless their play here is similar to their scum game it might just be NAI. A lot of players have talked about their lack of motivation in this game, and it's debatable how much of this is genuine or just an excuse but it's wide-spread enough to where I can see Sesq just not being at their A-game this game. Just looking at this game specifically, I'm struggling to see a definite scum agenda to their play. I'm annoyed by their limited scum-reads and coasting behavior, but at the same time they clearly don't care about the impression they give off and they're not super motivated to start a counter-wagon, even going as far as to town-read volxen. It almost feels like they're playing to get lynched in some aspects, which honestly does make some sense as a scum play-style, but I'm kind of iffy on it.

Volxen is still my preferred lynch today. I'm not too opposed to a sesq lynch but I have a lot more reservations about it compared to volxen. Toranga/Dunn are my weakest nulls right now, so I probably won't cry a river over their lynches either, but volxen makes the most sense to me right now tbh.

Yes, yes, scum partners bus, but at the time of reading these posts I did begin to see Reundo as a teammate who was sharing similar thoughts and suspicions as myself. He chose to oppose the Sesq wagon while it was selling like hot cakes (like myself) and hold the course with the more difficult Volxen wagon.

These three posts should at least give him safe passage into D3.


If Reundo is town, they possess impressive reading skills.

[Keyser Söze]

Toranaga, bad news.. during my re-read I had you down as the scum partner who bussed Volxen

Do you want me to talk through the scum narrative I have in my head?

[Keyser Söze]

FOS Taranaga (hey Taranaga, please give me a rating for a) effort b) believability c) sincerity).

volxen/sesq/271 all fine lynches

Taranaga name drops his scum partner’s name and two other viable wagons.
Does not go into detail or present his scum case on any of them.

do you think it's beneficial or necessary to talk about things that you clearly don't think are alignment indicative?

Taranaga asks this question to Volxen: it’s a very non-aggressive/rhetorical question you would ask your scum partner. I suspect it was soft-distancing.

keyser, idk man, I lost interest with this game cause nobody is playing it

half the slots are scummy so idek where to vote

I asked Taranaga why he still had not voted (despite expressing 3 names he would like to lynch). I did not believe he was being sincere here. The tone feels fake. The excuse weak.

Taranaga replaced into the game full of character and venom, but has suddenly lost the motivation and town initiative to put his money where his mouth is...? Smells like a scum who doesn’t want to put unnecessary pressure on his scum mate... and watch the current misslynch wagon thrive (this is serious tin foil hat territory now! Who is still reading?)

Taranaga has promised us content but not delivered (instead he appears more concerned with fronting a relaxed /friendly exterior).

VOTE: volxen

volxen made a lot of scumsplaining and description posts that added no leans and didn't help the game move forward. I think he has a bigger chance of being scum than sesq who is probably kind of... incoherent? regardless of what they rand.

I don’t like the timing of this. I feel like Taranaga could see the change of wind from Sesq to Volxen, so decided it was time to finally post his ‘case’ on Volxen and hop onto the wagon (I.e the golden ticket to town cred).

[Keyser Söze]

in before "HE IS TW'S PARTNUR"

Nah, TW is not on my scumdar so far.

[Keyser Söze]

also maybe don't lynch inside volxen's wagon if you can avoid it today thx

game is easy bros. just don't do hero reads like me and TW this gameday and lynch inside an actual smart POE for today. not volxen's voters unless you wanna lynch sesq.

Stop putting TW’s name with yours bro. I’m looking at you.

As I said... it’s just a theory I had in the back of my head after my re-read.

[Keyser Söze]

@mod any chance of a deadline extension?

this is already the towniest motherfucker on the planet

@The worst

What is your game history with Taranaga?

Would scum-Taranaga prefer if you buddied up with each other.. and kept in your periphery?

[Keyser Söze]

Sorry, Toranaga. My bad bro x

[Keyser Söze]

Don't think it's Tornaga, think we should be taking a second look at Ausuka

You’re in my PoE, plus, I don’t trust you one bit.

But I’m open to being convinced:

Why is Ausuka scum?

[Keyser Söze]

So, I was planning on casing Keyser, but then he started open wolfing even more than usual, so nvm on that.

VOTE: Keyser Söze

This is unexpected... but I don’t think it changes my read of you.

[Keyser Söze]

@mod any chance of a deadline extension?

this is already the towniest motherfucker on the planet

@The worst

What is your game history with Taranaga?

Would scum-Taranaga prefer if you buddied up with each other.. and kept in your periphery?

literally 2 weeks? ago we worked crazy well together as r/t in a large theme so I did make a mental note to suss his entrance for possible pocketing but also it'd be a fairly crazy ballsy move from scumanaga at this point so I think it was literally just happy town

Thanks - cos his posts RE: you on D1 and now on D2 did make me suspicious of how he was using ‘you’/sucking up to you.

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrelephant - can you share some more thoughts on my town meta (everyone needs another top up again)

[Keyser Söze]

RE: night kill - as expected, a slot which was neither mutually town read or scum read. The safe night kill.

They only mentioned one scum read too.. who was it again? Ah yes, me

[Keyser Söze]

slot was obvtown

You’ll have to explain why after this game or in the dead thread.

[Keyser Söze]

Reundo, what are you on about?

[Keyser Söze]

Reundo, please present your case.

Dunnstral, please present your case.

It’s just gone midnight and I would like to discuss both cases.

[Keyser Söze]

I have pretty high expectations for town!Tora rn so take that how you will

Is he fulfilling those expectations?

On a scale between 1 and 10.

[Keyser Söze]

The perfect player to replace into that slot!

Welcome x

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: My Case On Keyser Söze

@Sesq, why not just share with us your reasons for scumreading Keyser? You started the game by taking a slight jab at him in 16, and then in 80 you said that Keyser is “entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way”.

@2.718, are you still scumreading Keyser?

Keyser - I actually like that he started the game by asking about hypoclaiming in 13, it showed that right off the bat he wanted to strategize on how to potentially make things more difficult for the scumteam. This is only my second game on this site so I don’t have any firsthand experience with hypoclaiming or its effectiveness, but I think it’s not likely that a member of the scumteam would suggest this as a tactic, since it could, theoretically, allow the watcher to reveal who they got a guilty on while making it more difficult for the scumteam to identify the real watcher.

Scum Reads:

2.718 – I really didn’t like his post-RVS opening in 91. I feel like he tried to completely misrepresent what Keyser really meant when he said that he didn’t want to talk about hypoclaiming/setup past page 1, and even after Keyser clarified this in 92 (that he wasn’t “forbidding” discussion but rather that he didn’t want to partake in it himself), 2.718 still continued to press the issue in 101.

I also didn’t like that in 91 2.718 was quick to side with Reundo in the Keyser vs Reundo argument that was going on at the time. 2.718 made the comment here that “Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I like how he looked at everyone”. At the time, Reundo only had two posts, 46 and 50, in which he mainly focused on attacking Keyser, with only brief references made to Sesq, GameNBurger, and northsidegal in 50. 2.718’s post made it sound like Reundo was taking a balanced look at “everyone”, when in reality he was primarily just hammering down on Keyser. I feel like this was a very weak reason for 2.718 to jump in so quickly to side with Reundo.

@Volxen in your previous readslist why did you include more nullreads than scum or town reads?

Reundo is someone that I would like to get a read on, but I’ve been having a very difficult time trying to read him. I REALLY did NOT like the way he started this game in 46. But I’m not sure if his interactions (and arguments) with Keyser are SvT or TvT (Keyser is still a townread for me). The last time I went through his ISO and reviewed his interactions with Keyser, I ended up just getting really frustrated because I couldn’t get a read on him one way or another. I’m going to review Reundo’s content again, and hopefully I will catch something that I may have missed the first time around.

t like his entrance to the game and the way he attacked Keyser right off the bat, and I think the way he is playing this game is very opportunistic.

First point I was going to make was how volxen was literally obsessed with Keyser as the above quotes show. Even in his scum-read of 2.178 he couldn't help bringing up Keyser and giving yet another HOT TAKE on the whole me verses Keyser debate. This kind of focus is completely unnatural and forced, which could mean one of two things: A)That he was afraid of spewing anyone as town so he thought the best bet was to spew Keyser!town (plausible, but eh) OR B)That he was trying to make his scum-buddy seem as towny as possible, even when it goes way overboard, which is actually more unlikely than A, but becomes increasingly more likely when you take into account that Keyser basically blatantly distanced himself from volxen.

@Sesq, why not just share with us your reasons for scumreading Keyser? You started the game by taking a slight jab at him in 16, and then in 80 you said that Keyser is “entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way”. You also said in that post that you changed your mind about him, which would suggest you no longer found him scummy, but you kept your vote on him anyways. And then in 118 you are apparently back to scumreading him. So why not just explain why you scumread him – is there really anything useful gained by putting it out there that you scumread him, but then refuse to elaborate any further? And what exactly did you mean when you said that he is “detached” from the state of the game, but in a way that is not indicative of him being scum? Trying to understand your motivations here.

This is a really bad entrance, especially according to Keyser's supposed method of scum-hunting: it was a post about a topic that was well over and done with (which he called out me for), a topic that likely wasn't going to lead to any AI responses at all (something that he later called out Dunn for). There was little reason why Keyser WOULDN'T call out volxen for this type of post, except, of course, if they were scum-buddies, which was the first big ping for a volxen/Keyser pairing, which was why I didn't really have any problem switching my vote over to volxen.

I'm not going to quote it here because it's a little long, but when Keyser responded to Ausuka's readslist he pretty much responded to all of her reads except for volxen and GameNBurger (though tbh he did talk about GameNBurger just a bit earlier), which was again blatant distancing between him and volxen.

I can see / clearly read Volxen’s posts, but don’t feel like they’ve opened up yet (free flowing posting). Feels too laboured/restricted at the moment.

This read of volxen makes no sense, and almost sounds like a town-read (?) which was why it was a little weird when he jumped onto volxen's wagon later in the day.

@volxen

Are you saying that those three players are scummy for contributing to the apathy/lurking that festers in this game? Or are you just pissed off for being s/read; being our first wagon?

It would make sense to at least try to look like he was pushing the volxen wagon. Not scummy in and of itself, but it implies he scum-reads volxen a little, which is a bit important later on.

I’ll vote Sesq if that’s the lynch

Hey Irrelephant, I'm gonna go the WIFOM route sorry: do you think scum-Sesq would have a bit more survival/verve/urgency in them?

This is literally the only post I couldn't parse from scum!Keyser, but at the same time it would look almost a bit too bad if he jumped onto such easy lynchbait.

@Irrelephant - yeah gonna try and work an alternative wagon as we head into the deadline

This post, however, pretty much nullifies the affect the last post had, because I couldn't get why town!Keyser would want to move onto a new wagon when he didn't necessarily clear volxen or give any indication whatsoever that he was town-reading him.

That's pretty much all I had on volxen/Keyser distancing (or at least what I've bothered to bring up). I was then just basically going to summarize all the anti-town/scummy things he did this game, including but not limited to...

>Basically only responding to my initial case on him with "town could do the same things I'm doing right now!", which is a pretty petty defense, then when I brought up that I wasn't convinced by this he basically hammered down on the concept while later claiming I was focusing too much on him, despite the fact he basically didn't prove any of my points wrong so I had no reason not to shift focus.
>The fact that out of the whole lynch pool D1, the only player on there who didn't criticize Keyser directly was volxen, his own scum-buddy. His only scum-reads were basically people who criticized him and he was far too happy to throw out town-reads to anyone who town-read him, which completely neglects the possibility of buddying and is not town motivated at all.
>Related to the above, pretty much the way he was happy-go-lucky with everyone who town-read him but super aggressive with anyone who didn't. It wasn't a natural shift in tone, and it certainly wasn't town-motivated. Also, generally not accepting of the fact that people could possibly scum-read Keyser.
>Basically the way he did a complete 180 on me when I didn't suspect him anymore.
>Oh, and the super obvious Huntress night-kill. It's such a scum!Keyser night-kill it's not even funny, really.

There's probably some stuff I forgot, and a lot of the case is a bit rushed because I'm not too motivated to case caught scum so some of the points aren't all that polished, but I feel the above was plenty enough evidence here to convict scum!Keyser. Honestly, I was going to push a the worst/Keyser pairing at the start of the day because I thought the worst was pocketing a bit too much for my taste (and reminded me a lot of my first scum game with him) and the progression to voting volxen didn't really feel natural to me. I thought volxen put only town in his scum-reads because it basically read as a desperate attempt to start another counter-wagon and he wouldn't really want to bus Toranaga in that scenario, but I did suspect him a bit for pushing volxen but never actually voting him until it was clear he had to bus, which was a pretty noticeable ping. I thought Ausuka's votes felt opportunistic as well and I didn't find her initial read very organic, so my lynch plan would've basically been {Keyser, the worst, Toranaga, Ausuka} which would've worked out fine in the end anyhow.

- Town and scum usually fixate on my posts. They are very juicy.
- Volxen knew I was town, thus attacked the players who attacked me.
- I secretly like players defending me, so I allowed it, instead of stopping them.
- There were a few player reads of Ausuka that I did not feel there was enough content to discuss.
- My Post 187 was a reason to s/read Volxen. I try to highlight only scum alignment indicative points against a player.
- I joined Volxen’s wagon because it was a wagon I fully supported.
- Basically, Volxen reacted like frustrated scum when their wagon built up.
- Volxen was attacking players for NAI reasons.
- I did not want to join the lead wagon (Sesq) because it looked like the low hanging fruit counter wagon to Volxen.
- Irrelephant11 mentioned he was happy/ready to hammer Sesq so I wanted him to re-evaluate that slot via WIFOM.
- I wanted to support an alternative wagon to Sesq. Volxen was still viable. I stayed on it.
- Volxen was not trying to distance me. I was one easy t/read he could express without raising alarm bells, and then attack players for pressuring me.
- Your original scum case on me was filled with scum tells that are not even scum tells. They are NAI behaviour.
- I encouraged you to look at the whole playerlist instead of tunnelling fluff. You then began to scum hunt, and found scum (pat myself on back).
- My reads were pretty solid on D1. I do know what distancing and buddying are.
- I did not scum read every player that scum read me. I realise town can have bad reads. Or I may have helped towards that read through my playstyle.
- Town players can do a complete 180 read change on another player (if their posts justify it. Your posts justified my 180 on you).
- Huntress NK had nothing to do with me (it appears you are suffering from deep confirmation bias now). That NK was chosen as it was a safe night kill (I.e Huntress was very unlikely to be watched N1).


I would like to discuss your thoughts on Toranaga and Ausuka though.

[Keyser Söze]

My case on Ausuka is that he voted Volxen then switched over to Sesq when that became a thing then switched back to volxen when that was happening, and I remember their votes being pretty bad at the time

Yes, I do concede it is probably the most significant ‘switch’ in terms of VCA. I will promise to re-read Ausuka.

[Keyser Söze]

TW and I are not the two remaining mafia goons.

@the worst - can you confirm.

[Keyser Söze]

Came into D2 thinking Toro-Dunn (but they’re both united over scum-Ausuka, who in turn doesn’t town read them! how perfect ) so this is going to be an interesting day. So I’m now sat here with my popcorn, waiting to see the uncensored interactions between those players (so far they’ve talked about eachother, but not engaged one another).

[Keyser Söze]

I will get your name correct one day, sorry Toranaga.

[You a Kurosawa fan?]




Has everyone written off Eragon as town? A slot we haven’t spoken about much. Kop felt like town kop, and Eragon hasn’t made any scummy moves since replacing in.

[Keyser Söze]

Eh it was fun but I don't think it's both of them
Keyser's interactions with volxen are pretty scummy on re-read. I can't get over how Keyser defended Sesq, though (ultimately resulting in volxen's lynch, though not directly). Unless both of them are scum?
tw looks bad for his "yes please do scumcase Keyser and hold my hand through it" as well as TMI'ing volxen's flip, but by EOD it did seem pretty obvious we'd caught scum - I was gonna hammer, I felt sure enough - so this might be nothing. GNB was pretty scummy, though.

The reason I don't think it's both is mainly how GNB/Keyser/volxen would have had to have a LOT of scum theater when it would be much easier/townier looking to keep each other at a more average distance. Maybe their pre-game plan was to have Keyser ask about hypoclaiming, let GNB explain (incorrectly), and then move forward together with some towncred, but if it was planned it was executed really terribly, so I doubt it was planned

I don't have any strong scumreads but I have enough townreads and enough confidence that we can keep up yesterday's momentum that I'm not worried about it yet

I actually like the effort and walkthrough of Irrelephant11’s paranoia here.
It’s not scum-Irrelephant11 throwing together wild theories to look busy.
It’s town-Irrelephant11 looking under every rock, sense checking each combination and narrative.

[Keyser Söze]

instead of trying to lynch the people who dunked on scum yesterday, just look at other slots. just today. it's day 2. look at ausuka's vote movement, it's scummy. I have no reason to townread anything she said today either. NSG is probably scum as well.

In follow up of Irrelephant’s points against you:
You say we shouldn’t look at people who “dunked on scum” / pushed and voted Volxen D1, but you are looking at Volxen’s wagon yourself (Ausuka). I just wish you’d been on Volxen’s wagon earlier: instead you name-dropped Volxen early saying you would lynch them but did not vote for a long part of D1. Then when the wagon looked inevitable then you decided to vote / post your belated case. That is what is grating in the back of my head. I asked you before, give me a grade for “believability” for the scum narrative I am presenting. You are not acknowledging but deflecting. You keep laughing off cases on you with humour, gifs, talking about the worst, or throwing out a town read on the person analysing your behaviour. I feel the Volxen wagon was too damn enticing for at least one scum not to bus.

Nauci says NSG is the townie who towned in townville - are you going to challenge Nauci in regard this read?

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: volxen

VOTE: sesq

Probably a decent vote tbh my tr on them kind of feels like it was probably an inaccurate shitread.

VOTE: volxen
i heard this is the new cool wagon to be on.

Does anyone know scum-Ausuka that much?


Would she be this sloppy with jumping from one wagon to the other without covering her steps with more detailed supporting explanations?

Elsewhere in her ISO, she has been very tidy: Ausuka has been meticulous presenting her revised global reads (frequently). But why does scum-Ausuka think she can freely hop on and off the Volxen/Sesq wagons without anyone calling her up on it on D2?

[Keyser Söze]

So I should sheep you, and trust you here?

If Ausuka flips green we lynch you D3..?

If Ausuks flips red, TORANAGA FOR PRESIDENT!

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah... but the Sesq case was bad... and was being trampled on at the time.
The Volxen slot was in very bad shape too.

[Keyser Söze]

I like your confidence bro x

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Ausuka

Reason: “for being sloppy scum and shamefully jumping off her partner’s wagon to push a viable counter wagon, to then jump off that wagon, and return to her partner’s wagon in a desperate attempt at towncred/bussing.”



This vote feels dirty.

[Keyser Söze]

Nah, I’m not being closed minded, I’m ok with being wrong [If Ausuka is the obvious-scum who was sloppy it would help me re-think my reads on you and Dunnstral].

[Keyser Söze]

Not gonna invest much time defending myself since I'm not enjoying this game at all. Tor doesn't do this as town, take up his offer and lynch him day 3. Make tw out his tell today, lynch him d4 if it's horrible, otherwise go Dunn I think.

Don’t need to defend yourself, just continue your process of elimination exercise.

Have you re-read D1 yet?

[Keyser Söze]

I think Ausuka should keep posting.

UNVOTE:

[Keyser Söze]

Not even remotely caught up (I'm at like post 52) but VOTE: Keyser Söze until I'm done because like dayum

Nauci? Apart from Kop, Irrelephant and TW I thought you understood my game the most...?

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser just likes sheeping confident people I guess. Still think he's town.

My bad, I honestly just wanted the ammunition from your flip to gain clarity with my scum read of Toranaga (if that makes sense). I know this sounds anti-town, but it made sense in my head when I voted you.

[Keyser Söze]

Not even remotely caught up (I'm at like post 52) but VOTE: Keyser Söze until I'm done because like dayum

Nauci? Apart from Kop, Irrelephant and TW I thought you understood my game the most...?

Oh, you’re only on post 52. Well then yes, even I didn’t like my entrance/early play - it was all self inflicted in the end though.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser just likes sheeping confident people I guess. Still think he's town.

My bad, I honestly just wanted the ammunition from your flip to gain clarity with my scum read of Toranaga (if that makes sense). I know this sounds anti-town, but it made sense in my head when I voted you.

But if he's scum can't you like

lynch him

instead of lynching somebody else to prove a point who you apparently don't really scumread

At one point, Tora made me feel stupid for t/reading you. Since you’ve been posting it would be hard to lynch you now. I will probably vote in my bottom two reads (Dunnstral, Tora).

[Keyser Söze]

@keyser soze, what's your game experience with huntress like?

I don’t think I’ve ever played with her.

[Keyser Söze]

I really wish Dunnstral would talk to Ausuka (or engage other players about his scum read, or even earnestly re-read the thread).

[Toranaga is at least doing this..]

[Keyser Söze]

@Reundo - help me with Toranaga and Ausuka.
Both can’t be scum... so either both town, or one scum?

[Keyser Söze]

@Reundo - help me with Toranaga and Ausuka.
Both can’t be scum... so either both town, or one scum?

Why do you call out to Reundo here?

Why not?

Reundo is a slot I have tangible reasons to t/read from D1 - so was hoping to see him open up and share his opinion on two slots I keep flipping on.

[So far D2 he has only expressed a thorough and logical scum case on me]

[Keyser Söze]

What the hell Irrelephant Do you have fat fingers? I accidently press the quote button too when I thumb down the page on my phone.

[Keyser Söze]

Still have a feeling Dunnstral is holding back on purpose.

VOTE: Dunnstral


@Dunnstral - show me one of your town games where you have been this distant.

[Keyser Söze]

@Evil Eragon

Before you post one more gif you must vote

[Keyser Söze]

Why is Nauci still voting me?

Am I really her #1 lead?

[Keyser Söze]

Bye

No vote? We need drama. No votes, no drama.

[Keyser Söze]

ausuka looks horrible if sesq is town, that's why I wanted to kill her after d1

I'm not reading too much into ausuka's posting

re: NSG. IDK. I don't like her initial posts. she spends a lot of time talking about irrelevant stuff and feels like busywork to me. otoh I have seen her towngame and I think she does try too hard to look at every minor thing and has a bunch of her own ideas about mafia that I don't necessarily agree with, so there's definitely an element of our styles and the way we view the whole thing being way too different for me to actively enjoy her posting. I don't understand why she'd get so focused on GNB preemptively bothered with being townread for trying too hard. I don't think she really did anything otherwise? didn't push the game in any direction and is just a nonpresence really, since I got here. So IDK. I'd kill eventually, idc.

also I'm on the 3rd linkin park song now

Interesting points RE: NSG.

Does NSG’s points (or scum case) on Dunnstral today look like a bus or a genuine scum read to you?

[Keyser Söze]

Annoyingly I’m sure Dunnstral has the ability to get himself out of everybody’s PoE but he hasn’t been ‘here’ the whole game.

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrelephant - if me and you are the loud townies who are pushing the Dunnstral “misslynch”.... who are the scum opportunistically hopping on to our misguided suspicion?

[Keyser Söze]

This is Volxen’s last post:

I don't really have any time to elaborate before the deadline, but I do think Reundo may possibly be scum. I really didn't like his entrance to the game and the way he attacked Keyser right off the bat, and I think the way he is playing this game is very opportunistic.

Volxen’s final attempt to create WIFOM over the Reundo slot by faking classic scum-distancing (?)

[Keyser Söze]

I’ve formed good reads looking over dead-scum ISOs (associations).

60% of the time, it works everytime.

[Keyser Söze]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reundo

Talk me though how/why/when Reundo bussed Volxen on D1.
Paint me the narrative for me to believe it.

[Keyser Söze]

Through*

[Keyser Söze]

Oh no Nauci just when I’d written off the Sesq slot as town... time to have another look.

I hope you catchup with everyone soon (I won’t reply to your scum case until you have).

[Keyser Söze]

Oh no Nauci just when I’d written off the Sesq slot as town... time to have another look.

I hope you catchup with everyone soon (I won’t reply to your scum case until you have).

Spoiler:

also what i mean by this is that this post is super scummy.

first off, it came pretty much directly after Nauci explained their SR, and showed they had a p.strong SR on Keyser, so this is taken as an OMGUS.
on top of the fact that its "I had thought you were town until you SR me, well, now time to take another look"
Id bet a thousand bucks keyser is/was going to end up "Casing" Nauci and Scumreading them.
"I hope you catch up with everyone because im not responding to your case before you have"
Why does it matter where they are in the thread? someone can SR you for things you did D1, and you dont have to be fully caught up to have thoughts/a SR.

Oh no Eragon just when I’d written off the Kop slot as town... time to have another look.

[Keyser Söze]

Has Eragon voted yet?

[Keyser Söze]

eh i feel less confident on it i just saw posts that pinged me.

before i was willing to pass it off to playstyle(as you could see i had him in my town block) but that was just because ive never played with him and you said its his style.

but then after that wolfy OMGUS thingy i just cant pass that off to playstyle



Im confident in Nauci, but probably my weakest towncore
im like, 85% postive i dont have scum in my town core


BYE

FTR - first part was me having fun.

Second part was me being serious. I want her to talk about the whole playerlist (and scum outside of me) before I begin a defence of my slot.



P.S Town OMGUS more than scum.

[Keyser Söze]

P.P.S Nauci could be town, but not as town as you’re making her out to be.

I haven’t witnessed her take apart someone’s mind yet.

[Keyser Söze]

He just recently voted Ausuka at my urging

I WIFOM’d myself out of the Ausuka scum read:

VOTE: Ausuka

Reason: “for being sloppy scum and shamefully jumping off her partner’s wagon to push a viable counter wagon, to then jump off that wagon, and return to her partner’s wagon in a desperate attempt at towncred/bussing.”



This vote feels dirty.

I don’t think scum would be this sloppy/opportunistic/desperate.



[If Sesq is scum too... that may change things though. A third scum partner wouldn’t care hopping from one bus to another as both slots were under heavy fire.].

[Keyser Söze]

yeah I'm actually pretty interested in a Nauci flip

do you think Eragon’s irrational hard town read of Nauci looks better with Nauci flipping town or scum?

[Keyser Söze]

??
I have no answer atm. Why do you ask?

I want your answer to use against you or to support you after flips (I like your answers)


Do you think Nauci is a D2 lynch though? (Is pretty much a ‘game changing lynch’ this early. Have you re-read Sesq recently?

[Keyser Söze]

volxens town

[unvote]

This looks good

[Keyser Söze]

I started rethinking Ausuka on recent postings

I think I'd prefer to get Keyser Soze and I think he's been kind of awkward around the Ausuka vs Me Dynamic

Ausuka being town or scum in this scenario?

[Keyser Söze]

Quick and dirty reads list before I head into the 600s

Skitter Tier:

Reundo - Bellaphant of the ball
nsg - this is so outside of scumsg range and definitely in burned-out-townsg range

You know what? You's alright:

Toranga
Eragon
Ausuka

Wouldn’t bet on these:

Dunnstral
The worst

Naughty little boys and well actually just boys:

Keyser
Irrelephant

Myself or Irrelephant11 are very unlikely scum and shouldn’t be lynched today.

You’ll have to investigate us again Nauci

[Keyser Söze]

@Nauci - what does ‘scum The Worst’ look like in your own words?

[Keyser Söze]

If Dunnstral posted the next 1k that’d be cool.

[Keyser Söze]

mm swap keyser and the worst, the evidence mounting on keyser from many slots is a lot
Sorry keyser I'm enjoying your presence but I think you have high scum equity

Volxen knew I was town and formed his limited pushes around that.
Kop has a 100% read accuracy read on me.
You know I am town really and shouldnt be lynched today.
My D1 reads were solid.
Do you think I am underperforming as town?

[Keyser Söze]

I’m glad Huntress isn’t alive! Otherwise I’d be a viable wagon today




Toranaga and Dunnstral began D2 in my PoE. Tora has talked himself out of it. Dunnstral remains frustating. The nail in the coffin for him is that after 30 or so posts, he ends with me as the player he wants to lynch (My confirm bias says: I fear this is him capitalising on the growing paranoia on my slot). He’s had ample time to analyse each slot and offer thorough reads. Why is he not talking to me? At least Nauci, Irrelephant and Reundo have confronted me directly with their ‘cases’.

If he’s a stubborn townie he still has time to redeem himself and open up. For now, my vote stays.


Going to look at TW and NSG next.

[Keyser Söze]

ok, real talk

anyone scumreading dunnstral needs to read him shading the volxen wagon when it was L-2 and actually pushing people who voted there. is this in his scum range? because this is objectively towny. a player's first instinct while watching a wolf team mate go down, is to distance themselves from it. universally. dunn is not only not doing that, but actively pushing people with good reasoning behind it. this does not seem like he knows volxen is scum at all.

Spoiler:

I don't really understand the town-reads of volxen. Everything he's posted seems like surface-level scum-hunting based mostly around points that have already been brought up by others, and as a whole it seems like he's much more interested in garnering why player X scum-reads player Y than providing scum-reads of his own. I'm more worried about him than 2.718 at the moment.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: volxen

VOTE: volxen

Yeah, i can see that

VOTE: volxen

VOTE: volxen

VOTE: volxen

This momentum is pretty weird - I don't think Reundo's case in 220 is that compelling. Sesq looks bad here.

Who was town reading Volxen?

Yeah, i can see that

Can you point it out for me?

Yeah, i can see that

Can you point it out for me?

Now would be a good time to explain this Sesq

Still think sesq is question dodging

Ausuka votes are kind of weird, though

WIFOM dictates Dunnstral is likely town.........


I do love townies who are oblivious of how bad they’ll look after a flip.

Let me sit down and put the kettle on.

[Keyser Söze]

UNVOTE:

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler:

Eragon is the new Errant

what?

P.S. The Eragon slot is like hard gliding right under everyone's radar and that should bother all of y'all a lot

this is fair and accurate news

i agree, but activity is normally NAI for me, i can be active or inactive as both town or scum, depending on whats happening in life

VOTE: Dunnstral

from here on out just voting whoever I'm supposed to vote.

if anyone sees me signing up for a Mafia game ever again please spam my inbox reminding me not to

sad

:ok_hand:
red flip d1 feels good man

drunk ducky gonna slep now gngn

I think this is actually TMI, because he was already like “red flip Day 1 feels good”

I mean, town never KNOWS that the person is scum unless a TI has a guilty, but TW acted like he KNEW volxen was scum, not HOPING that volxen was scum and not actually watcher.

this is the first kinda towny post in eragon's ISO. I didn't like some stuff and kop was hard null.

still reading...

also iirc that was my first post where i actually had some inkling of the game

eragon's ISO: his reads list seem good, his thoughts seem towny on a surface level

could be scum but it's not really standing out as such and would be a poor lynch

thats all you got from my ISO

mm swap keyser and the worst, the evidence mounting on keyser from many slots is a lot
Sorry keyser I'm enjoying your presence but I think you have high scum equity

Volxen knew I was town and formed his limited pushes around that.
Kop has a 100% read accuracy read on me.
You know I am town really and shouldnt be lynched today.
My D1 reads were solid.
Do you think I am underperforming as town?

-A reasonable way to look at it, but it is pretty weird how you didn't call out him trying to pocket you if that was the case
-Okay, sure, I'll give this a tiny bit of weight
-I definitely don't prefer your lynch but if my townreads push you I'm not sure I want to get in the way anymore (pretend I wrote this in a less scummy-sounding way)
-meaningless, as scum can be however right/wrong with their reads as they want
-No, so I'll give this some weight too

g2g bye

i dont know why it matters if kop can have an accurate read because he only had about 14 posts this game and no thread presence, so i wouldnt really put anything in what he says
and how do you put weight when someone asks "am i underperforming as town?"

it's very possible I antagonized ausuka so hard on d2 that she can't really see me being town for it, and then started that associative read with TW cause he was just siding with me and sheeping it.

I think town eragon is generally townier than this, but if eragon is scum he is putting a very decent effort and looking towny at a few points in this ISO.

I'm having a very difficult time trying to find a proper lynch that isn't NSG, which might reduce the whole thing to just flipping dunnstral and hoping it flips scum

but anyone doing so should take into consideration that he literally shaded volxen's entire wagon when it was L-2 on d1. which isn't a pro-town thing to do, but it doesn't strike as someone who knows alignments.

I was wrong about stuff like that before and he hasn't been oozing towniness anyway.

I think it's gonna be mostly ausuka/nsg or dunn/nsg. I think lynching these 3 and then eragon wins the game.

as before, effort is NAI and you should treat it as such.

- Kop (who knows my town/scum meta inside out, and hydra partner) has a 100% accuracy read on me. Whether his slot is scum (who knows I’m town) or is town (who you should Sheep for now), I am always town here
- if Irrelephant11 thinks I’m a townie underperforming I will need to rethink my status. But I think I’ve had a solid game so far, and kept the attention/vote where I think it should be on D1/D2.
- I now think Dunnstral shouldn’t be D2’s lynch. I’m ok with being wrong about Toranaga and Dunnstral, I thought I had this game solved. But the opposition, and growing counter attack on me makes me feel something is off.

[Keyser Söze]

Let’s explore this, we have time.

VOTE: NSG

I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.

[Keyser Söze]

Meta that helped me form stronger scum feels on TW in a previous game:

Spoiler: Mathdino Case on The Worst in Open 719

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW

what does scum tw look like?

he looks like town

that's the problem. he can be motivation-read but he also knows i know that since i've gone over his scumgames with him

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

he's VERY good at replicating his town meta

i don't intend to fall for the trap of metaing him again

from his scumgame:

Regardless of alignment I tend to get lazy around power players. But I'd say I play a more tryhard scum game, and definitely a lazier town game if I can get away with it. It's largely not intentional, there's just big battles of personalities which I don't really have the energy to get involved in.

As scum I loathe bussing and try to consider my partner/s as remote possibilities at best. The biggest tell I can see from myself is that I try to adjust my style to suit apparent PRs and conftown as scum while as town, I tend to totally disregard their asses and try to work with "obvtown" or sort "probtown" players

Also. Low key I abhor drawing scum but it happens to me a lot. xD (2:2 finished games on MS and I'm almost policy lynch in a Discord server I play in sometimes because of how often I'm evil)

Lowlight of my year so far: trying to explain my scumgame without softclaiming scum with Not_Mafia

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

VOTE: Math lmfao still at page 20

D1 paranoia here was this is the first time Math hasn't tried to read me by like page 3. I was trying to work out if he had me pinned for a future mislynch but afrer one post (I'll find it if ppl want) I figured he was just being cautious bc he's underestimated my scum range before.

Lukewarm associatives and WIFOM about how scum!tw would play with town!math after our last game noice

welcome back

- i've literally played 2 games with you? the first time i replaced in and read you by VCA in my first posts. the second time, yeah, i'd seen 2 of your towngames (counting the one i modded) and i figured you were playing it and locked a townread on you.
the bolded is true though. so what exactly are you voting me for?

- that kind of WIFOM logic is also how i got a read on beefster in earthbound (based on how scum!beef would play against me after the last time i lynched him).
so are you voting me for anything other than BoP?

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

You had really good intuition with noticing the bad D1 wagons all around. mutant and Screenplay were easy mislynches, and often are lynchbait in other games. Townhunting is often more important than scumhunting. Problem is I think Espeonage assumed you were scum who already knew they were town.

You nailed Jay and Montosh. Jay really outplayed town with the super convincing roleblocker claim.

the worst, you fully know i think highly of your towngame
and also your scumgame
i just don't believe you think i'm scum here

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

1. Stay in the background D1, make smart sounding statements but don't step on any toes. Never be the scummiest person.

2. Broadcast that you're gonna claim PR. Bonus points if you do this as town anyway.

3. Openly push scum wincon without looking like you're trying to. Play dumb at every opportunity. If experienced players are trying to lynch town, defer to them. Bonus BONUS points if they're trying to lynch good town.

4. Get indignant when people try to lynch you. OMGUSing acceptable.

5. Ham it alllll the way up to the point where half your posts are scumclaims while the other half are "townslips" and dumbtells because you're having fun playing scum and you're having fun fucking with town's heads. You're having even more fun when you know you won't get lynched through a PR claim.

sound about right?

Well since I am having a little trouble deciding how to feel about The Worst refusing to respond to any of my questions (any of anyone's questions?), I went to look up a little wisdom. We all are sad Math isn't here and think he's pretty good at reading The Worst, Not_Mafia, and more, right? So here's Math's posts casing TW from our game. And some quotes from TW on his own scum play from somewhere else.

I'll let y'all decide for yourselves if this stuff applies here because I don't want to confbias, I only want to provide evidence. I have to go find some The Town games but preferably when it's not 6 AM.

This does sound awfully familiar.

@the worst - is Nauci's fear rational?
In your own words, what is scum!TW?

...but TW feels different this game.
Admittedly we haven’t put fire up TW’s ass this game though.


Yet...

[Keyser Söze]

Can somebody remind me why we need me specifically to post more in this game? I don't think I caught that

Do you think you’ve solved this game? (In your last post you concluded I was scum - I think you’ll need to read a bit more).

If you don’t want to contribute anymore replace out.

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: rude comment inside, i apologize in advance

~~if you still think i'm scum you are bad at mafia or you are scum!~~

Thanks - but what about the third option:

A townie who is finding it to hard town read you?

[Keyser Söze]

[*]@Keyser 928 Why did me scum reading you for the first 8 pages make you want to scum read/re-evaluate my slot? What would be the scum train of thought to do something like

My tone was semi serious: but tbh Sesq on D1 gives me enough reason to not lynch you today.

D2, your slot has been focused on killing townies. I just think you need to re-evaluate the playerlist.

[Keyser Söze]

[*]@Keyser 928 Why did me scum reading you for the first 8 pages make you want to scum read/re-evaluate my slot? What would be the scum train of thought to do something like

My tone was semi serious: but tbh Sesq on D1 gives me enough reason to not lynch you today.

D2, your slot has been focused on killing townies. I just think you need to re-evaluate the playerlist.

It's disappointing how little you've engaged with all of the content from the last 5+ pages (while asking others to contribute more).

I’ve read and made conclusions.

Dunnstral and Toranaga are no longer in my PoE today.

I want to sort NSG and TW now. If I exit D2 with strong reads on either slot I will count that as a success.

[Keyser Söze]

all the content from the last 5+ pages

Highlight which alignment indicative observations / scum cases you think I have ignored and I will offer you my take/read on it.
Otherwise, I believe I am up to date.

[Keyser Söze]

No, you said I ignored all the “content” from the last 5 pages.
What alignment indicative posts / scum cases are you referring to?
You can’t just throw that out there and expect me not to react.
I have been fully engaged in this game thank you.


Do you think Toranaga and Dunnstral are the last two mafia goons?
If so, convince me to return back there.

Toranaga has convinced me 1) he is unlikely mafia and 2) he also convinced me I was a blind idiot for being on Dunnstral’s wagon all of today.

[Keyser Söze]

Dunnstral:

- defends scum
- opposes wagon on scum
- attacks town
- encourages wagon on town
- not motivated (or happy to be seen to not be motivated) about scum hunting
- no pro-active urgency demonstrated while being the lead wagon today
- weak ISO
- zero town cred won from D1 (Volxen bud was there for the taking)
- zero motivation to gain town cred for D2
- Lame OMGUS read
- minimal WIM


Tora opened up my eyes to town read him via WIFOM.

Scum-Dunstral would never survive to LYLO playing like this.

Proof of the pudding: he’s been in nearly everybody’s POE today, and likely some people will even want to kickstart his wagon before the deadline.

[Keyser Söze]

I do feel cleaner coming off his wagon. I was being lazy and short sighted.

[Keyser Söze]

@Eragon - why is your vote not on me?
You have just listed many (bad) reasons why you strongly think I am scum.



Btw, I never said I was "god like" - I'm a below-average mafiascum player with still lots to learn. However, my reads have been on point so far this game. If Dunnstral and tora flip town, I'll feel even better about my developing game

[Keyser Söze]

because most of the reasons are more like, post thoughts and tonal reads? along with a bit of playstyle maybe?

I suggest you don't get too emotional over these type of things.

In this game, capital locks and bold letters should only be employed when sharing gripping/convincing/important alignment indicative evidence against a player.





As I requested earlier... what important scum alignment posts / scum cases did I fail to engage / comment on / react to?
(It sounds like you agreed with Nauci).

[Keyser Söze]

ahh, the self-deprecation, always the distancing from yourself being scum, because scum isnt likely to point out where they did bad

FTR: "self-deprecation" doesn't just come from scum.
It is very common for honest townies on mafiascum to be critical of their own game

[Keyser Söze]

The worst, who do you want lynched?

I don’t know what you’re currently doing.

Active lurking looking at the last few contributions.

[Keyser Söze]

any plans for the weekend KeySö?

Mate's birthday tonight, lads night in tomorrow.
You?

[Keyser Söze]

ahh, the self-deprecation, always the distancing from yourself being scum, because scum isnt likely to point out where they did bad

FTR: "self-deprecation" doesn't just come from scum.
It is very common for honest townies on mafiascum to be critical of their own game

lol no it's not

if people were critical of their own games town winrate would skyrocket here

[Keyser Söze]

I re-examined how the sesq wagon came about in response to the first volxen wagon

New reads:

Eragon
Reundo
Keyser Söze
Ausuka
Toranaga
Nauci
the worst
northsidegal
Dunnstral

Are you still s/reading Dunnstral bro? (or did you want to talk about that slot?)

[Keyser Söze]

Dunnstral has a long list of surface level scum behaviour (none of them knockout factors like you say)
But when you connect all these pieces together you see a picture of a townie continually making the wrong choice:
Both tactically and in terms of keeping people happy.

[Keyser Söze]

Can somebody remind me why we need me specifically to post more in this game? I don't think I caught that

I will add this to my signature after this game regardless of what Dunnstral flips
I’ll actually be more impressed if this is scum-Dunnstral talking to the everyone like this, despite having the group scrutiny on his slot. Would even scum-TW get away with this?

[Keyser Söze]

This game is about survival.
And Dunnstral’s supposed scum game isn’t helping him survive.
Scum-Dunnstral gets no benefit out of this or his remaining teammate: even if his partner busses, they’d get no town-cred.
It’s tactical suicide.

I believe scum are in my middle ground reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Dunnstral:

- defends scum
- opposes wagon on scum
- attacks town
- encourages wagon on town
- not motivated (or happy to be seen to not be motivated) about scum hunting
- no pro-active urgency demonstrated while being the lead wagon today
- weak ISO
- zero town cred won from D1 (Volxen bud was there for the taking)
- zero motivation to gain town cred for D2
- Lame OMGUS read
- minimal WIM


Tora opened up my eyes to town read him via WIFOM.

Scum-Dunstral would never survive to LYLO playing like this.

Proof of the pudding: he’s been in nearly everybody’s POE today, and likely some people will even want to kickstart his wagon before the deadline.

like that same viewpoint is reflected here and in my opinion it's entirely counterintuitive - you're recognizing a lot of reasons for why dunnstral is scum and then coming to the conclusion that "no way would he make it that obvious if he were scum"

and to that i would say

sometimes maybe you should keep it simple and see what happens

True, sometimes the simple answer is the right one - but is Dunnstral really this shit as scum?

[Keyser Söze]

Oh dear.

[Keyser Söze]

@Eragon - sorry to be annoying again but I don't think your vote is where your current reads are.

Would you say (Dunnstral, Keyser) has more chance of flipping scum than (Ausuka)?

Can you also explain why you labelled NSG “probable scum” too.

[Keyser Söze]

And I was obvious town in team mafia I think, unless I'm misremembering

@Dunnstral - I’ve said some bad things against you as a player (sorry bro, just out of my frustration to try to explain my WIFOM town read on you)
But do you think my read on you sounds rational? Or am I being stupid for town reading all the ‘bad’/‘scummy’ choices you have made?

An updated readslist from you would be a benefit too I think. Perhaps a sentence or two on each player, as a lot has been posted since your last contribution.

[Keyser Söze]

UNVOTE:

[Keyser Söze]

I do love Reundo’s novella-style reads on players. They feel like a warm blanket that re-assure me.

His work on Volxen D1 was exemplary. For those alone I elected Reundo into my top tier of town reads at the start of D2.

His recent post regarding Dunnstral strengthens my resolve not to hang Dunnstral today.

Reundo also weakens my desire to flip NSG D2 (pointing out their D1 actions surrounding the Sesq counter wagon was not the scum-optimal-play).

Finally, Reundo has re-opened my reluctant suspicion of Ausuka, who jumped off the Volxen wagon, to join the Sesq wagon, then finally rejoining the Volxen wagon. Even though I town-lean the Ausuka slot, those actions are scummy in isolation (in the conventional VCA sense). This is my dilemma

[Keyser Söze]

Right now, I’m basically left with TW and Eragon in my PoE.

That is the crazy world we live in.


If TW and Eragon offer their thoughts of eachother that would be great.

[Keyser Söze]

TOWN CORE
-Eragon
-Irrelephant11
-Toranaga
-Nauci
-the worst


Town based on what other people said
-Reundo

PoE Bracket
-Ausuka
-northsidegal
-Keyser Söze
-Dunnstral

Probably the town
-Ausuka

probably the scum(yes i know theres three of them but i could see them all flipping scum, but i know one of them wont, i just dont know which)
-NSG
-keyser soze
-dunnstral


these are all in order of strength from top to bottom.

So Irrelpephant is my strongest TR(other than me)
and TW is my weakest Town circle(still like 90% positive hes town tho)
Reundo is in his own category because i havent seen him do anything at all today and im just going based off what others say
Ausuka is my weakest SR
While Dunn is my strongest, although its very very close between him/keyser/NSG and i am happy to go any way

I don’t like this readslist.

It kinda vibrates a going-with-the-popular vibe.

I still don’t know why Eragon isn’t voting me or Dunnstral.

When I pressed Eragon what the nature of her scum read was of me, it basically sounded like for tonal/playstyle reasons, which is strictly NAI for me. Plus, I personally didn’t like Eragon piggy-backing Nauci’s attack on me. It felt like keeping the sustained pressure/attention on my slot without committing to a vote (which I would have expected to be the next logical step. Still no vote).

I don’t know why she has labelled NSG “probable scum” too. All I know is NSG was a viable wagon for a many (including me at some point today).

Why is TW in her “town core” too? I’m having a hard time t/reading TW, so please share this conclusive evidence of TW warranting “town core” status.

[Keyser Söze]

I'll maintain that both wolves are in ausuka/nsg/dunn and if we kill all of them we win the game most of the time

if you wanna lynch dunn this gameday, I'm not gonna stop you.

Can you do a quick bulletpoint summary on all 3 players.
I’ll try to add any points.

They are the 3 slots that have committed (and quite openly) surface-level sins.

[Keyser Söze]

Sorry Eragon, thought you were a gal.

IMO we Lynch Dunn > Keyser > NSG/Ausuka > NSG/Ausuka and thats a wrap.

Tbh, if this game is actually quite simple (and not as challenging as I believe it is) then this is the correct 'popular' route.

[Keyser Söze]

I’ve got to a point where I’m happy to sheep.

Let’s hope obvious scum is scum this game!

[Keyser Söze]

Ready to end D2

Dunnstral to role claim please.

[Keyser Söze]

I've always seen these type of lynches flip green, but good luck ladies and gents.

[Keyser Söze]

So lynching Keyser should end the game

Me and Dunn were town I think, so yeah, scum is in your town circle.
It's all about re-evaluation though this game.

[Keyser Söze]

Can somebody remind me why we need me specifically to post more in this game? I don't think I caught that

Competent scum don’t tank like this (unless scum-Dunn thinks his remaining partner can win the game from here).

[Keyser Söze]

I thought Dunn was hammered?

[Keyser Söze]

I’m currently thinking a one-on, one-off theory regarding the Dunn wagon.


Eragon’s “readlists” isn’t even a readslist if you break down his individual reads, it’s a ‘this is a wagon I would jump on’

Im wondering how sincere all those ‘town core’ reads are actually town (what strength and why) and why he is scum reading his ‘probably scum’, which may even be null reads. Is it in fact a mere PoE list?

I.e I want to see a real readslist tiers (e.g town lean, scum lean, null scum lean).

[Keyser Söze]

At least Eragon has a chance to vote/hammer Dunn now.
He’s been pushing my lynch and Dunn’s all D2 (or at least linking the chain lynch too) without committing to either wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrephant11
Take out all your town reads/town leans who do you have left?

I.e null town lean and below

[Keyser Söze]

I agree that volxen was bussed. Kinda want to hear what you think about who tho :/ I guess you don't really have many reads. How would you feel about lynching Eragon?

Looking back:

Votecount 1.19 - FINAL

volxen (6) - Reundo 220, Sesq 222, Keyser Söze 224, Toranaga 402, the worst 406, Ausuka 408
Sesq (3) - Dunnstral 117, northsidegal 307, volxen 330
Keyser Söze (1) - Huntress 393
Toranaga (1) - Irrelephant 255
Huntress (1) - Eragon 194

Not voting: N/A

A lynch has been achieved!

I entered D2 thinking Toranaga had played the perfect bus strategy (post #543). But Tora's posting today has been relentless, a freight train of open dialogue and townie-persistence. Town tone dripping from each pointed view.



The only other two votes you'd look at are TW's and Ausuka's. Why?

Here is TW's vote:

I'm down. righteous af flashwagon

VOTE: volxen

anyone who doesn't vote volxen in their next post is scum with him tbqh

This is TW demonstrating his unreadable tone, sheeping/jumping on after Tora's vote (where Tora finally gave a reason for his scum read). I'm probably ending D2 with TW as null scum lean. He needs some stand out towny play for me to start trusting him.


Ausuka's infamous Volxen vote, counter wagon vote, then return to vote Volxen:

VOTE: volxen
i heard this is the new cool wagon to be on.

That's the only conventional scummy behaviour I can see in her ISO, apart from that, everytime she opens up her mouth my faith in her alignment is restored. She is a hard slot to lynch IMO.


Eragon popped in at EndofDay with this post (not vote):

Literally the only play is to kill volxen.

If we lynch him and he’s watcher, then someone else takes his place and we get their results N1

If we lynch him and he’s scum, GREAT!

If we don’t lynch him and he’s watcher, and he’s town, he dies tonight and we don’t get results for N1

If we don’t lynch him and he’s scum, we’ll then we lynch him tommorow, which is a day later than we should

This could be viewed as a bus, just as much as a last minute vote would have.

[Keyser Söze]

Ausuka
Eragon
the worst
Dunnstral

Good PoE.

Mine: Same names, different order for me though. I'd have Dunstral most likely to flip town from those names.

[Keyser Söze]

THE MAN IS ALIVE

[Keyser Söze]

TW demonstrating his unreadable tone,

quoting for memes post-game

You fascinate me.
Take the fact i'm not town reading you a compliment.

[Keyser Söze]

Irrelephant11 lynch is very unlikely today or ever. If scum he's likely won in my eyes.

[Keyser Söze]

just for fun I'm gonna post every time Eragon has shaded something NAI I've written or expressed suspicion over something I've posted:

"So lynching Keyser should end the game"
"i think the most likely scumbuddy would be Keyser"
"agreeeeed. but add Keyser there"
"can I have 10 of what your smoking?"
"I definitely see you and Dunn flipping scum more often then Ausuka."
"IMO we Lynch Dunn > Keyser > NSG/Ausuka > NSG/Ausuka and thats a wrap."
"p.much hard pocketing of Reundo right here"
"This is reachy, incorrect, and wolfy"
"Nice deflection my dude, by not one that will get you far."
"on top of the fact a Keyser/Dunn Scum team could actually make sense"
"i was saying you twisting and misinterpreting her words was bad"
"ahh, the self-deprecation, always the distancing from yourself being scum, because scum isnt likely to point out where they did bad"
"so dont try to twist their words to make it seem like you are doing as much as everyone else and that they are wolfy reaching."
"this is subtly shading dunn and subtly saying "I'm town""
"probably the scum"
"yes i know theres three of them but i could see them all flipping scum"
"honestly fucking stop saying this BS"
"how is there nothing scummy about keyser?"
"its just a way to deflect the attention IMO"
"but i havent seen much presence from you recently either, i know you've had a lot of posts, and probably just RL stuff(understand) but you have lost activity"
"probably the scum"
"if both scum arent in {Dunn, Ausuka, Keyser, NSG, maybe Reundo) i need help."
"also what i mean by this is that this post is super scummy."




...still waiting for him to vote me. All I know is he has my lynch lined up after Dunnstral's (who he's still not voted...)


I need advice from a neutral party:

Does this look like confirmation bias? Or someone suspiciously chaining misslynches / linking a townie-to-scum?