Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!

[volxen]

Hello all.

VOTE: GameNBurger

Because I like both games and burgers.

[volxen]

Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town

Anyways let that be a lesson to never do gametheory math late at night because youre bound to make idioitic mistakes, theres still a not great part of the stupidly simple model i used that doesn't account for the fact that T contains M in it, I should have broken it into P=t+M for more generalized use to make the death equation a bit easier to see the relationships

Why did you feel the need to "remind" us not to townread you for posting a mathematical proof? I find it a bit odd to automatically assume that people would give you free towncred just for that one early game contribution. I get your point about people making the mistake of townreading based on effort alone, but I really don't think it was necessary to explicitly say that you don't deserve towncred for sharing a mathematical proof.

[volxen]

@Sesq, why not just share with us your reasons for scumreading Keyser? You started the game by taking a slight jab at him in 16, and then in 80 you said that Keyser is “entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way”. You also said in that post that you changed your mind about him, which would suggest you no longer found him scummy, but you kept your vote on him anyways. And then in 118 you are apparently back to scumreading him. So why not just explain why you scumread him – is there really anything useful gained by putting it out there that you scumread him, but then refuse to elaborate any further? And what exactly did you mean when you said that he is “detached” from the state of the game, but in a way that is not indicative of him being scum? Trying to understand your motivations here.

[volxen]

So I'm back for a while

Let me weigh on some shit

@NORTH:

Short summary of my last game, i'd do some game theory stuff or long pairing posts that were like open notes, which is just my style of play for the most part but people kept saying "this is never town" which is just the dumbest assumption

I know lazy scum is a popular strat on this site but god damn somebody's gotta break the circlejerk rip tides because scum could just easily coast by putting in effort in note taking

Thats probably the largest reason why i felt the need to comment on it ahead of time since I really hated having to just not say anything in the interest of the town not flip flopping more than it already did that game, not only that but if scum tries to ride out a similar strat of just putting in over the top effort and taking town cred from people I want to be able to call it out with scum potentially being armed with ammo of me keeping quiet in the case that anyone gives me towncred

And I don't buy into that shit of "act bad then attract scum who try and attacks you or buys into it" because town has every right reason to call you out on that as scum does so its just a big showy waste of everyone's time that will cast doubt on ones self to the rest of the town

@Volxen
How have you missed my references to my previous game being the main hitch that motivates my action its in the quote you quoted

I didn’t miss the reference you made to your previous game, I just disagree that it was beneficial/necessary to bring it up in regard to how people may or may not be reading you in this game. To me at least, going out of your way to say “don’t townread me for this” comes across as odd and forced. Why not just let everyone come to their own conclusion? That’s all I’m saying.

In any case, you did elaborate more on your reasoning in this post in your response to NSG, so perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

@volxen: why do you think scum!GNB argues that people will tr him for mechanics when he doesn't actually believe that?

As I see it there are really only two reasons why he would go out of his way to tell people not to townread him:

1) If he is town, perhaps he really just did have a bad experience in previous game(s) where people incorrectly equated effort with towniness, and he’s worried it might happen in this game based on that.

2) If he is scum, he may just be using basic reverse psychology to plant the idea that he is acting like town by essentially saying “don’t give me easy town points, make me earn them”.

At the moment though, he’s a null-read for me, as most of his content has been the mathematical proof, talking about hypoclaiming and lurking, and the whole bit about him not wanting people to townread him solely based on providing the mathematical proof.

[volxen]

@2.718, are you still scumreading Keyser? In 91 you said that he seemed scummy to you because he brought up hypoclaiming/setup at the beginning of day 1 but didn’t want to continue talking about it beyond page 1. You then further pushed this case in 101. I get that day 2 is the first day where hypoclaiming can be taken advantage of, but why was it such an issue for you that he wanted to briefly bring up the topic at the beginning of day 1? From Keyser’s posts it seems like he simply wanted to briefly bring up the issue, without it becoming a major focus for day 1. I’m just curious if you are still scumreading him, and if so, if it’s only because of the hypoclaiming/setup discussion.

[volxen]

Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town

Anyways let that be a lesson to never do gametheory math late at night because youre bound to make idioitic mistakes, theres still a not great part of the stupidly simple model i used that doesn't account for the fact that T contains M in it, I should have broken it into P=t+M for more generalized use to make the death equation a bit easier to see the relationships

Why did you feel the need to "remind" us not to townread you for posting a mathematical proof? I find it a bit odd to automatically assume that people would give you free towncred just for that one early game contribution. I get your point about people making the mistake of townreading based on effort alone, but I really don't think it was necessary to explicitly say that you don't deserve towncred for sharing a mathematical proof.

ok, and so what? do you townread it, scumread it, null read it? who cares if it's unnecessary? is it scummy?

I already clarified that I am null-reading GameNBurger currently in 125:

So I'm back for a while

Let me weigh on some shit

@NORTH:

Short summary of my last game, i'd do some game theory stuff or long pairing posts that were like open notes, which is just my style of play for the most part but people kept saying "this is never town" which is just the dumbest assumption

I know lazy scum is a popular strat on this site but god damn somebody's gotta break the circlejerk rip tides because scum could just easily coast by putting in effort in note taking

Thats probably the largest reason why i felt the need to comment on it ahead of time since I really hated having to just not say anything in the interest of the town not flip flopping more than it already did that game, not only that but if scum tries to ride out a similar strat of just putting in over the top effort and taking town cred from people I want to be able to call it out with scum potentially being armed with ammo of me keeping quiet in the case that anyone gives me towncred

And I don't buy into that shit of "act bad then attract scum who try and attacks you or buys into it" because town has every right reason to call you out on that as scum does so its just a big showy waste of everyone's time that will cast doubt on ones self to the rest of the town

@Volxen
How have you missed my references to my previous game being the main hitch that motivates my action its in the quote you quoted

I didn’t miss the reference you made to your previous game, I just disagree that it was beneficial/necessary to bring it up in regard to how people may or may not be reading you in this game. To me at least, going out of your way to say “don’t townread me for this” comes across as odd and forced. Why not just let everyone come to their own conclusion? That’s all I’m saying.

In any case, you did elaborate more on your reasoning in this post in your response to NSG, so perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

@volxen: why do you think scum!GNB argues that people will tr him for mechanics when he doesn't actually believe that?

As I see it there are really only two reasons why he would go out of his way to tell people not to townread him:

1) If he is town, perhaps he really just did have a bad experience in previous game(s) where people incorrectly equated effort with towniness, and he’s worried it might happen in this game based on that.

2) If he is scum, he may just be using basic reverse psychology to plant the idea that he is acting like town by essentially saying “don’t give me easy town points, make me earn them”.

At the moment though, he’s a null-read for me, as most of his content has been the mathematical proof, talking about hypoclaiming and lurking, and the whole bit about him not wanting people to townread him solely based on providing the mathematical proof.

[volxen]

I've been busy with work, I will respond more tomorrow.

[volxen]

It’s been somewhat hard to try and get reads on everyone since the game started out with a lot of activity in the beginning and then quickly died way down, but here are some preliminary reads that I have so far:

Town Reads:

Keyser - I actually like that he started the game by asking about hypoclaiming in 13, it showed that right off the bat he wanted to strategize on how to potentially make things more difficult for the scumteam. This is only my second game on this site so I don’t have any firsthand experience with hypoclaiming or its effectiveness, but I think it’s not likely that a member of the scumteam would suggest this as a tactic, since it could, theoretically, allow the watcher to reveal who they got a guilty on while making it more difficult for the scumteam to identify the real watcher.

Overall, I feel like he is someone that has been genuinely trying to gamesolve and move the game forward. He hasn’t done anything that comes across as scummy to me.

Null Reads:

northsidegal – I’m not really sure what to make of the whole comma’s thing. It seems like a stretch, but maybe she will have more to say about it.

GameNBurger – As I mentioned in 125, GNB is currently a null read for me as most of his content is about the math proof, not wanting to be townread for the math proof, hypoclaiming, and lurking. I originally asked him why he felt the need to go out of his way to tell all of us not to townread him in 104, as I found this a bit suspicious and thought his response to my question might potentially be alignment indicative. However, I found his response in 108 to be fairly neutral, and not enough in and of itself to make me lean towards townreading him or scumreading him. Of course, he is being replaced so I will have to see what his replacement does, but for now this slot is still null for me.

Scum Reads:

2.718 – I really didn’t like his post-RVS opening in 91. I feel like he tried to completely misrepresent what Keyser really meant when he said that he didn’t want to talk about hypoclaiming/setup past page 1, and even after Keyser clarified this in 92 (that he wasn’t “forbidding” discussion but rather that he didn’t want to partake in it himself), 2.718 still continued to press the issue in 101.

I also didn’t like that in 91 2.718 was quick to side with Reundo in the Keyser vs Reundo argument that was going on at the time. 2.718 made the comment here that “Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I like how he looked at everyone”. At the time, Reundo only had two posts, 46 and 50, in which he mainly focused on attacking Keyser, with only brief references made to Sesq, GameNBurger, and northsidegal in 50. 2.718’s post made it sound like Reundo was taking a balanced look at “everyone”, when in reality he was primarily just hammering down on Keyser. I feel like this was a very weak reason for 2.718 to jump in so quickly to side with Reundo.

I also find his town read of Reundo questionable in 151. He gave him a town score of 4.5, and all he really had to say was that Reundo’s post in 119 was “great”, without stating why he thought it was great or pro-town. So once again, he is defending Reundo without really providing any explanation or reasoning. And then in 182, he literally says “I see nothing that is worth my attention”, as if he is simply not interested in trying to find scum anymore.

VOTE: 2 718281828459

[volxen]

So Apparently, having reads and trying to help gamesolve is scummier than, say, doing absolutely nothing and actively lurking while being blatantly apathetic about it. Let’s look at 2.718’s, Toranaga’s and Sesq’s recent posts:

2.718:

in 182, he declares that nothing is worth his attention. I mean, what exactly was the purpose of this post? To prod dodge? Or is it more along the lines of “hey I probably could gamesolve, but it’s just not worth my time”? Whatever the case, it certainly didn’t contribute anything. Blatant active lurking and apathy.

And then in 215, he asks “everyone else” to get some wagons going because he finds the game to be getting “boring”. So rather than doing something productive himself, he is simply expecting everyone else to produce content. Again, blatant active lurking and apathy.

In 231, instead of helping to gamesolve he gives excuses for why he isn’t helping to gamesolve. Blatant active lurking and apathy.

Toranaga:

In 190, he literally admits to not having any interest in this game and blames it on everyone else. Again, a case of someone expecting everyone else to make the game interesting, rather than producing meaningful content themselves. Blatant active lurking and apathy.

In 192 he namedrops me, Sesq, and 2.718 as his scumreads, only to say that he could case all of us, if only he had the motivation to do so. He’s carrying himself with this “I don’t give a shit about this game, but if I did I could easily gamesolve the whole thing” attitude. Blatant active lurking and apathy.

218 and 241 are just fluffposts.

In 243, he once again reinforces his lack of motivation in this game. Blatant active lurking and apathy.

Sesq:

He votes for me in 222, with no explanation other than “Yeah, I can see that”. Then in 249, he declares that he might as well vote for me because, hey, he didn’t have any of his own scumreads anyways. What is he trying to say here, that he doesn’t think for himself and try to gamesolve, but rather just goes with the flow? Blatant active lurking and apathy.

We’ve got multiple people who are engaged in blatant active lurking and complete apathy towards this game, and yet I’m the first one to even bring it up in this post. Why is that?

[volxen]

@Volxen in your previous readslist why did you include more nullreads than scum or town reads?

Fair question. I only included those four reads because It’s honestly been hard to get reads on people in this game. However, Sesq and Toranaga are now also scumreads for me, largely due to the points that I brought up in 254. 2.718 is still a scumread for me, and I believe it is very likely that there is at least one scum among {2.718, Sesq, Toranaga}. I will reiterate all of this in an updated readslist post that I will be making soon.

Reundo is someone that I would like to get a read on, but I’ve been having a very difficult time trying to read him. I REALLY did NOT like the way he started this game in 46. But I’m not sure if his interactions (and arguments) with Keyser are SvT or TvT (Keyser is still a townread for me). The last time I went through his ISO and reviewed his interactions with Keyser, I ended up just getting really frustrated because I couldn’t get a read on him one way or another. I’m going to review Reundo’s content again, and hopefully I will catch something that I may have missed the first time around.

Anyways, that’s just a brief update on where I am at reads-wise. I know our deadline is coming up soon, so I plan to post an updated readslist by tomorrow.

[volxen]

@volxen

Are you saying that those three players are scummy for contributing to the apathy/lurking that festers in this game? Or are you just pissed off for being s/read; being our first wagon?

Both, Keyser. Yes, I am irritated that there is a wagon on me, but I'm equally irritated by the fact that apathetic and non-contributing slots such as 2.718, Sesq, and Toranaga are slipping by under the radar in spite of their blatant active lurking and apathy in this game.

[volxen]

Welcome, The Worst. Long time no see...

[volxen]

another thing (sorry for the spamposting:)

@volxen: how much mafia experience do you have? do you know the ducky...?

This is my second game on this site, with the other game being a newbie game. And I've played Mafia twice IRL. Yes, I've briefly known The Worst.

[volxen]

another thing (sorry for the spamposting:)

@volxen: how much mafia experience do you have? do you know the ducky...?

This is my second game on this site, with the other game being a newbie game. And I've played Mafia twice IRL. Yes, I've briefly known The Worst.

so when you say "on this site", do you have off-site experience (if you don't mind me asking)? have you read a lot of games on ms?

No, I don't have any offsite experience. I'm new to this. I have spent quite a lot of time reading (and rereading) through theory and articles on the MafiaScum.net wiki, but I haven't actually read through a completed game from start to finish. I'd like to, but right now I really just have time for this game.

[volxen]

yeah, haven taken another look i think i'm pretty alright with calling the e*12 slot town.

No, I don't have any offsite experience. I'm new to this. I have spent quite a lot of time reading (and rereading) through theory and articles on the MafiaScum.net wiki, but I haven't actually read through a completed game from start to finish. I'd like to, but right now I really just have time for this game.

it's fine, you just seemed very used to a lot of the terminology so i was wondering.

That's all thanks to the MafiaScum.net wiki

[volxen]

VOTE: Sesq

[volxen]

Hi everyone!

Starting to read through now.

Welcome, Huntress.

[volxen]

the reason i was aggressive in earlier games is because i was an angry weird child and now am i unable to put passion into anything at all

including this game

volxens town

[unvote]

You have to use the unvote tags.

[volxen]

Aye this playerlist is lit AF.

That’s literally the reason I joined even though schools starting.

Driving home from the airport, so will maybe do stuff later
(Or just meme with teh wurst and tora)

Welcome, Eragon.

[volxen]

Intent to hammer before deadline
Volxen, if you see this, claim

I really don't want to out myself, but I have no choice with getting to L-1 so close to the deadline. I'm the watcher.

[volxen]

lol two hours before deadline

The realllllly fun part is that we could lynch anyone with just the people online now

But prolly it'll just be volxen

Volxen if you're town do more than claim PR please, don't just disappear

I mean, what much else can I do with the time we have left? If I had gotten to L-1 with more time before the deadline there would be more time for discussion, but we are less than 2 hours away, and I'm not even sure if most/all of the players in this game will see my roleclaim before the deadline.

At this point, the only two wagons are Sesq and I. I think it's pretty clear one of us is going to be lynched. All I can really do at this point is ask you (and the others voting for me) is why do you think I am more likely to be scum than Sesq?

I'll concede that my entrance into this game wasn't stellar; there were more important things I could have addressed aside from GNB's statement about not townreading him for the math proof. But I have genuinely tried to gamesolve. And I have shared reads; Keyser is a townread for me, and {Huntress[2.718], Sesq, and Toranga} are all scumreads for me, which I elaborated on in earlier posts. Sesq, on the other hand, has never really had any reads that he has elaborated on. He started this game by going after Keyser, yet never made a coherent case against him, only basically saying that he is "detached from the state of the game". Then when I became a wagon, he sheeped Reundo's vote onto my wagon with no explanation of his vote. He hasn't really done much of anything, except sheep vote and make cryptic statements like "I'm going to make an unexpected wagon of my own" and then do nothing. He refused to defend himself at all against his own wagon, which in my view, is one of the most anti-town things you can do. After all, if you are town the only person you can be 100% certain is not scum is yourself, so you have an obligation to at least try to defend yourself against a possible impending lynch. And unlike my situation of becoming the leading wagon literally within a few hours of the deadline, he has previously been the leading wagon for a while, and he has had ample time to respond and defend himself, and yet he hasn't. He has also yet to make any original and recent scumreads of his own, except for his initial case against Keyser at the very beginning of the game.

[volxen]

lol two hours before deadline

The realllllly fun part is that we could lynch anyone with just the people online now

But prolly it'll just be volxen

Volxen if you're town do more than claim PR please, don't just disappear

I mean, what much else can I do with the time we have left? If I had gotten to L-1 with more time before the deadline there would be more time for discussion, but we are less than 2 hours away, and I'm not even sure if most/all of the players in this game will see my roleclaim before the deadline.

At this point, the only two wagons are Sesq and I. I think it's pretty clear one of us is going to be lynched. All I can really do at this point is ask you (and the others voting for me) is why do you think I am more likely to be scum than Sesq?

I'll concede that my entrance into this game wasn't stellar; there were more important things I could have addressed aside from GNB's statement about not townreading him for the math proof. But I have genuinely tried to gamesolve. And I have shared reads; Keyser is a townread for me, and {Huntress[2.718], Sesq, and Toranga} are all scumreads for me, which I elaborated on in earlier posts. Sesq, on the other hand, has never really had any reads that he has elaborated on. He started this game by going after Keyser, yet never made a coherent case against him, only basically saying that he is "detached from the state of the game". Then when I became a wagon, he sheeped Reundo's vote onto my wagon with no explanation of his vote. He hasn't really done much of anything, except sheep vote and make cryptic statements like "I'm going to make an unexpected wagon of my own" and then do nothing. He refused to defend himself at all against his own wagon, which in my view, is one of the most anti-town things you can do. After all, if you are town the only person you can be 100% certain is not scum is yourself, so you have an obligation to at least try to defend yourself against a possible impending lynch. And unlike my situation of becoming the leading wagon literally within a few hours of the deadline, he has previously been the leading wagon for a while, and he has had ample time to respond and defend himself, and yet he hasn't. He has also yet to make any original and recent scumreads of his own, except for his initial case against Keyser at the very beginning of the game.

This is a good case on Sesq if you're town and we'll keep it in mind. Any other reads/things you think town has missed?

I don't really have any time to elaborate before the deadline, but I do think Reundo may possibly be scum. I really didn't like his entrance to the game and the way he attacked Keyser right off the bat, and I think the way he is playing this game is very opportunistic.

[volxen]

gg! Thanks for modding Flicker! I wonder what happened to volxen and Dunn

I've been here all along . I posted quite a bit in the dead thread, and I've been following the game on and off ever since I died.

[volxen]

Rip

If I had killed irrel I woulda won lmao

I was too worried about watcher and if irrel was watcher or watcher was on irrel

Then I just freaked out in maf chat and killed reundo


Well played town, this was areally fun game(while I was actually playing it)

That Reundo nightkill was seriously the most shocking thing that happened in this entire game! I mean I knew he was town of course, but I never thought in a million years that you would nightkill him. I thought for sure you were going to leave him alive as the last mislynch. But yeah with the state of the game being what it was, trying to nightkill either Irrelephant or Nauci would have been incredibly risky for you, since they both were highly likely to be watched by the watcher, and you had no way of knowing that Nauci was the watcher.

Did you actually think Reundo was the most likely person to be the watcher, or just that he was the least likely person to be watched given how suspicious everyone was of him?

[volxen]

@Flicker thanks for modding this game! I had fun being scum here, even though my time in this game was very short. I guess I at least got to play some part in helping to get Keyser mislynched, as people thought my buddying and defending of him was indicative of our interactions being SvS.

[volxen]

@Flicker thanks for modding this game! I had fun being scum here, even though my time in this game was very short. I guess I at least got to play some part in helping to get Keyser mislynched, as people thought my buddying and defending of him was indicative of our interactions being SvS.

Lol I thought it was a crazy gamble on your part

But I thought it was crazy that he didn't react to the buddiest buddying that anybody ever buddied

lol, when this game started over two months ago, I had only been on the site for 10 days, and I was still playing my first newbie game (as town). So when I got my scum role pm for this game, I was both excited and freaked out, especially since there was no scum daychat and I had never played scum before. I read a lot of different articles on scum play, but one thing that really stuck out to me was the importance of having solid "townreads" as scum. So I settled on Keyser -- he was always going to be my hard "townread", and I would defend him no matter what. As Keyser correctly pointed out to you guys, I used Keyser as a springboard to attack others who either criticized him or scumread him (e.g., Huntress[2.781], your predecessor Sesq, etc.). This is a large part of why I had Huntress[2.781] as my primary "scumread" on day one. I think I chose Keyser as the person that I would hardcore buddy and defend because he genuinely was one of the most towny players on day one, and also because Kop (Eragon's predecessor) had Keyser as a "townread" as well. And Kop also had Huntress[2.781] as a "scumread" and voted for that slot, which is why I did the same as well (until I changed my vote to Sesq).

[volxen]

Oh oh oh oh does this mean I get to choose an avatar for you as you lost the avatar bet?

What was the avatar bet that you had with Nauci again?

[volxen]

So @Keyser, what are you going to choose for Nauci's new avatar?

[volxen]

this would be my choice

:3

Lmfao. I support that. Please choose this one Keyser!

[volxen]

Aww

I am too I guess

See y'all in December hopefully there will be a replacement slot open for me

We should get all 12 of us into a Watcher Wanted reunion game