Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!

[northsidegal]

i can't even fathom how hypoclaiming watcher results would work

i mean, could you explain it to me - investigation innocents i can understand hypoclaiming. watcher results in an open setup like this i can't.

[northsidegal]

Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town

why does it bother you to be townread for what you perceive to be the wrong reasons when you're town? even if the methods are incorrect, inaccurate or unreliable, aren't they arriving at the same correct conclusion either way? what's more, it would only beneft you in the games where you rolled scum, no?

i find it hard to understand your mindset here. i've seen people townread me in previous games for reasons that i would consider questionable but given that i was town anyways there i brushed it off. if i thought that the way someone townread me was suspicious then that would be something else entirely, but that's not what you're talking about here - so what's the deal?

Anyone played this setup before?

I.e what’s the best way to play it... does hypoclaiming help town or scum?

And while we’re all saying hello, what are your opinions on how to deal with lurkers.

please Please townread me

This was a page one question intended to be answered before we enter serious/non-RVS gameplay.

You shouldn’t see it as an attempt to look ‘townie’: it’s as non-alignment indicative as say a player asking if there is scum day chat - why are you being lazy/shortsighted?

it's not about whether or not sesq thinks that that question is AI or not - it would be about sesq thinking that you think that that question is likely to get you townread. i feel like your question misses the point.

[northsidegal]

even if you take the position of not liking people townreading you for just doing math, wouldn't it make more sense to you to not make that comment right away and wait and see if someone does townread you for the math, to potentially scumhunt off of it? unless you think that it couldn't be AI, in which case i would ask again - why would you care about people (theoretically) being correct in townreading you but for the wrong reasons?

[northsidegal]

Why would I think that question is alignment indicative and that it would win me town cred?

there's no way i could possibly answer this question - it would come down to your own thoughts on the playerlist and whether or not you would think it would be townread, or just your thoughts on scum philosophy in general. i can't read your mind.

In what universe do I win town points via those ‘LAMIST’ questions?

I’m not missing the point, I’m struggling to see how sesq is reaching for that scum-narrative.

it's not so far outside the realm of possibility - i've seen plenty of comments of "he's getting us out of RVS, decently towny, don't see why scum does that, etc etc" before.

i don't think it's that far of a logical stretch to see a post like yours and say that it's just a reach for town cred. i'm not necessarily agreeing with it - i'm just saying that it's not really unreasonable. can you at least agree that it's a valid thought process to have?

[northsidegal]

Are you saying GNB is suspiciously being overly-conscious about being t/read for a townie?

something like that. it just rings kind of fake to me.

“can you at least agree that it's a valid thought process to have?”

Northsidegal - I’ve already stated it was a lazy and shortsighted opinion to have. Unsure of the word “valid” though.

meh. i guess i don't really disagree, although i still think that what you said in 25 misses the point.

[northsidegal]

what? i thought i was pretty clear, although looking now i guess i was less verbose than i had thought. yes, his thought process doesn't make sense to me as a real one, which would naturally imply that it's something made up - hence my saying it "rings kind of fake".

[northsidegal]

Ya’ll can skim thru my last game if you want to see why what I said was a concern

would you mind giving me the short versIon before i take a full look through it?

I’m a firm believer in that a strong smart town is what wins games so I try to point out things I think are idiotic

this still feels pretty hollow as an explanation. again - you pointed it out before anyone even had the chance to say anything. i would understand pointing it out if someone else were being townread for what you think are bad reasons, but i sill can't understand saying it about a townread on yourself.

[northsidegal]

It's the lack of content from a player that has shown up that I find interesting

don't you think it's a little early to be saying something like this?

[northsidegal]

just trying to find anything to talk about, really

in moments like that i find it best to just sit back for a little bit and let the people who you're waiting for / looking at just enter the thread naturally, without any idea that they're being scrutinized

[northsidegal]

if you're trying to catch someone, isn't it best to not let them know that you're looking in the first place?

eh, probably doesn't matter much.

[northsidegal]

hello everyone! sorry, been a little bit busy and i'd rather sit down to look at this game than just skim it and try to respond from my phone

i can say right now that i'm fairly confident in ausuka being town

[northsidegal]

dunnstral seems kind of scummy right now, so that's a good a place as any for a vote.

i remember someone asking or pondering upon why i wasn't voting GNB if i was apparently scumreading him, and while i didn't and still don't really understand the mindset of what he was saying, it didn't really ping me as all that scum indicative on an instintcutal level.

anyways,
VOTE: dunnstral

[northsidegal]

I think Keyser is town from the quick glancing I made. I have played with Keyser quite a bit under a different alias on another website, and kinda know what his town game is, and what his scum game is. Unless his game play is different over here compared to over on the other website I play with him, but at the moment, I am getting his town game play from what I've seen so far.

how accurate would you say you are when it comes to reading keyser? i just want to know your degree of confidence here.

on a different note, kop's staccato sentences with all of the commas are standing out to me. from memory i don't really remember him talking like that, although i could certainly be wrong here. i'm going to check for myself soon (if not right after this then this should serve as a reminder), but does anyone else who's played with kop remember that?

[northsidegal]

For real though I've got no clue what Kop's normal posting style is like - why do you think the commas are AI?

saying that my opinion is "commas are scummy" is an utter misrepresentation of what i'm trying to say

he's typing in an awkward manner and it's an awkward manner that i'm not sure i remember him doing in the games i've seen him as town

not sure how you could frame that as my opinion being "commas are scummy"

[northsidegal]

i quite plainly said that from memory the commas were different than what i remember him talking like normally

if someone's posting differently as compared to how you expect them to, how wouldn't that be AI?

[northsidegal]

I mean, that looks like exactly what you're saying here, except replace that with "Kop's commas are scummy"

i began a response to this a day or so ago but never finished it

the statement "kop's commas are scummy" implies that in a vacuum i think that the use of commas is scum-indicative (patently absurd). the punctuation itself is secondary to my main point - i noticed a stylistic difference between the way someone was typing here and the way that i remember that same person typing in a previous game as scum. i don't think anyone would possibility dispute that that has a very good chance of being in some way meaningful.

-shrug-

you're being far less reasonable than i typically expect you to be, and i'm not sure if i should take it as scum-indicative or not

[northsidegal]

I see nothing that is worth my attention.

then make something

VOTE: 2.718

why do you think that comment warrants a vote? very interested in your thought process here - perhaps this won't hold true for e*12 as a person specifically, but i would always imagine that scum in that situation would either post nothing at all or would try to come up with something they don't actually care about to talk about in order to look engaged. i actually townread him for that comment.

it reminds me of the way blackstar played in open 728, if anyone cares at all. if someone wants me to elaborate on this i can.

[northsidegal]

Not sure I buy into NSG’s “staccato sentence/comma” theory - unless you can clearly show Kop only posting this style as scum, I think it’s too reachy for my taste.

wasn't much of a "theory" in the first place, nor something to "buy into" before more research was done. despite how dunnstral may want you to look at it, it was really only ever something that stuck out to me as being potentially a thing / relevant, hence my asking anyone else for information. honestly, i still haven't done the meta on kop that i wanted to.

Because NSG is hard townreading you and one of the following is true:
-She's town and probably correct
-She's scum and correct
-You're both scum <--- in this situation, I have no useful reads on any players, so I'm assuming it's not this

ah, the mathdino-style reads. i love it!

[northsidegal]

i vaguely remember irrelephant having a very good scumgame which makes me hesitant to do this but i think i'd like to townread him for the string of posts starting at around 200 maybe

[northsidegal]

it angers me the way dunnstral has framed my argument, genuinely.

[northsidegal]

IT'S THE DUCKY

[northsidegal]

dunnstral seems kind of scummy right now, so that's a good a place as any for a vote.

wHY

mainly i felt like -nothing- he was saying early was actually town indicative, which on its own might not make that much sense (not noticing towny things = scum?) but i feel like it's relevant. if someone is town thwn i would expect that they would show it in some way. here's what i mean (aka my shitty mathdino-style "lolcase" that will, going off of previous experience, get me either scumread or into a very stupid argument that lasts longer than it should):

Spoiler:

We end up at 4 people alive but 1 person is confirmed town (watcher) or there's a cc

So it's not worse

completely mechanically speaking, irrelevant to alignment

I mean it's not worse than a regular game at 3 people alive

----

Keyser I don't think I caught you in the game we played, not sure why you think I should be "taking lead" today either

completely mechanical + statement of fact

If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.

This is bad preflip stuff and you have to jump to a lot of conclusions to get to this point - also it's not warranted at this time

VOTE: Sesq
This is a good place to put a serious vote

this one is arguable but pointing out questionable play is something that can be done as town or scum, perhaps even especially so as scum given that you have insight into if something is already correct (not that that's an argument for it being more likely to come from scum)

and so on (i'm lazy + washed up), i think this trend continues of things that are reasonable from an entirely objective point of view but don't actually really reveal a town mindset continues

it's also possible i'm biased because of his response to what i said regarding kop which i feel was more unreasonable than i expect from dunnstral

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

i think there are a few posts in his iso that might be vague towntells (going off of previous experience from mini normal 2005) but i'm not actually sure if they're reliably town-indicative for dunnstral

[northsidegal]

anyways, i feel as if this game i'm just going to try to get a towncore and go off of poe mainly

town:
northsidegal
2.718281828459 (unfortunate you didn't replace into this slot ducky, i think it's town)
Ausuka
Keyser Söze (presuming i can trust kop on keyser's alignment and just for now - keyser is someone who i plan to do more meta on when i get the energy or when someone bothers me about it enough)
Irrelephant11

that leaves:
{volxen, the worst, Dunnstral, Reundo, Toranaga, Kop}

which feels vaguely alright in terms of a poe

[northsidegal]

@mod any chance of a deadline extension?

oh yeah, i echo this, @mod. i think a deadline extension is warranted, not just the freezing.

[northsidegal]

another thing (sorry for the spamposting:)

@volxen: how much mafia experience do you have? do you know the ducky...?

[northsidegal]

but for now I'll say that I think volxen's case against active lurkers is hypocritical considering he's been active lurking as well for the most part.

next up on nsg's guide to lazy low-effort very accurate reads!!!™ - we'll be taking a note out of mathdino's book and we'll be townreading hypocrisy!

after all, i would personally imagine that newbie scum (assuming volxen is a newbie) would feel self-conscious about trying to push someone for something that he himself knows he's doing. of course, that's assuming that volxen recognizes his own inactivity, but i think we can take that to be true given this:

I've been busy with work, I will respond more tomorrow.

[northsidegal]

I quite liked 117 from Dunn, I feel he's like totally capable of more as town and I'm looking forward to a lot more from him but I felt like his vote on Sesq was kinda bold at that point. I'm not really seeing anything town indicative in Sesq's ISO and kinda grumpy-poe-scumreading them though so maybe we're just on opposite ends of a swing saw there.

i could definitely see sesq being scum here

i wouldn't exactly say i have much experience with sesq but from the one game i read from her as town there was a lot more aggression i remember (like a lot)

[northsidegal]

I kinda want to swap Dunn and E/2.71 in your PoE but otherwise we're pretty close stance wise. I can't find a reason to like E yet.

though maybe you're scum for putting your name in your town list.....


hmm interesting take on Volx/Reundo. I want to read them as not scum together fwiw

i still think e*12's not caring about his image makes him town (like blackstar in that game you were scum in)

speaking of that game, if you're scum here i'm going to make up for being too vauge in my scumread of you in that game. watch out

anyways, this is as much for myself as it is for anyone else who cares, but here's a scumgame from e*12:
scum

here's two towngames (both replacements it looks like):

town1
town1

[northsidegal]

Yeah same here from Uhhhhhhh Viomi's fire and ice Sesq was memorable and I tr'd them almost as much as I tr'd skitter there at one point. it definitely feels like they're playing it safe here

seems as good a vote as any to me

shall we?
VOTE: sesq

Kop is an interesting slot for me to parse rn

I kinda have this unspoken "mmmm alright" response to all of his posts. I guess he's probably unlikely to be scum with Keyser but Keyser is probably just town so I'm so comfortably numb there.

interested in your reasoning on keyser being town

comfortably numb

comfortably null*
I phone post slower than I get distracted

Spoiler:

[northsidegal]

{volxen, the worst, Dunnstral, Reundo, Toranaga, Kop}

by the way, just realized i accidentally deleted sesq from this

so it should be:
{sesq, volxen, the worst, Dunnstral, Reundo, Toranaga, Kop}

though interestingly while reading page 11 for the first time, before i read the rest of the game, i had this weird prophetic insight that {Keyser, Rel, Kop} was T/T/T
having said that i'm a waterbird not a prophet so the fuck do I know

i guess it could be possible. one of those things to look at post-game, i suppose

[northsidegal]

wouldn't that have just made things easy?

although i guess it'd be more fun if i was town, assuming you're town, of course

[northsidegal]

there were a few mini normals, but that was ruby and not me, so you're right

didn't think it had been that long!

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

i'm not particularly concerned about him yet, so i think it's probably fine. i might just tunnel sesq for today and leave it at that.

shame there's no trackers in this setup

[northsidegal]

by the way, can we um talk about this:

Code: Select all

         Neutral
       ___________
Scum  /  3  4  5  \  Town
Lean / 2         6 \ Lean
    /           /   \
   / 1         /   7 \
   |          /      |
Scum 0       /     8 Town
   ---------O---------


(the 6 is not related to anything in particular)

[northsidegal]

another thing (sorry for the spamposting:)

@volxen: how much mafia experience do you have? do you know the ducky...?

This is my second game on this site, with the other game being a newbie game. And I've played Mafia twice IRL. Yes, I've briefly known The Worst.

so when you say "on this site", do you have off-site experience (if you don't mind me asking)? have you read a lot of games on ms?

[northsidegal]

yeah, haven taken another look i think i'm pretty alright with calling the e*12 slot town.

No, I don't have any offsite experience. I'm new to this. I have spent quite a lot of time reading (and rereading) through theory and articles on the MafiaScum.net wiki, but I haven't actually read through a completed game from start to finish. I'd like to, but right now I really just have time for this game.

it's fine, you just seemed very used to a lot of the terminology so i was wondering.

[northsidegal]

That's all thanks to the MafiaScum.net wiki

nice! i myself was a frequent reader of old games before i played my first game. when i started playing it was kind of surreal (and still is, honestly) getting to interact with these people who were in the games games i had read who were like characters right out of a book, always in unique and usually funny situations and always with an intriguing mystery to try to figure out before it got revealed at the end.

wolfy

[northsidegal]

I’ll vote Sesq if that’s the lynch

you seem hesitant / noncommitted

why vote sesq if there are people you prefer? or, if sesq is your top preference, why so noncommittal?

[northsidegal]

also, hello huntress! it's been too long!

the reason i was aggressive in earlier games is because i was an angry weird child and now am i unable to put passion into anything at all

including this game

volxens town

[unvote]

i can relate. to the second part, mostly.

[northsidegal]

i've definitely gotten angry here before. and i am young.

[northsidegal]

tinfoil theory: Eragon is scum and his partner(s) felt the need to welcome him in thread to try to seem like they're not talking in pt

Not a serious theory jsut something to consider I guess

????

[northsidegal]

honestly i've still yet to actually look into it to confirm, so if you're asking if my memory has suddenly changed, it hasn't.

[northsidegal]

waiting for Nauci to catch up and nsg to descend from the heavens once more

you mean to wash up on shore again? (the joke is that i'm washed up)

anyways, hello. i'm somewhat disappointed in myself for not voting scum, but it's alright. updated reads (mostly from memory) - i think the ducky is town because i think scum ducky would go for more distancing from volxen, which i don't remember seeing. i think maybe i townread ausuka too quickly, though i'm not sure (again, entirely from memory).

um, i think that's it for what i wanted to say, at least before i read anything.

[northsidegal]

interesting

[northsidegal]

oh, uh

i think dunnstral is scum again (again? still? honestly cannot remember what conclusion i came to yesterday)

[northsidegal]

@keyser soze, what's your game experience with huntress like?

[northsidegal]

Nsg nsg nsg what did you think of Ausuka's vca and interactions with volxen? but also her posting?

from day one? don't really remember it much, honestly.

[northsidegal]

but in a post that's overrall towny and from a perspective that NSG has no reason to believe it comes from scum.

-shrug-

it sounds like we just disagree on whether or not that's actually towny. that's to say nothing of my current read on tw or even what my read on GNB was - just whether or not GNB's original posts were town indicative or not.

[northsidegal]

i mean i made it clear later that i never voted GNB because nothing of what he said ever actually seemed scummy to me - it was just something that didn't make sense to me. is it unreasonable to try to elicit more from a statement that you don't think makes sense? i don't think so - even if i don't end up scumread that person, it at least gets the game moving.

[northsidegal]

GNB just said that, in last game when he was town, everyone started just townreading him on effort and that made things harder for him in that game. so naturally he doesn't want the same thing to repeat itself and end up in a similar situation. why is that fake? and why would he fake it? he is already being pretty LAMIST-y without saying he doesn't want a townread, so adding this part and referring to a game in which the same thing probably did happen just doesn't read at all like something he is faking, and IDK why that's how you're reading into this.

where did he say that it made things harder for him? as far as i understood it, it was just something that bothered him, and something that he didn't think would hold true for anything. which raises the question (at least, in my mind), if someone comes to a correct conclusion but through an incorrect method, should you really bother making a huge deal about it?

obviously if someone uses that method to townread someone else that'd be something to raise alarm about if you don't think the method is valid. however, you know your own alignment (presumably town), and so the reason for someone townreading you doesn't really matter much as long as they're right (and as long as you don't think the reason that this hypothetical person has come up with is scum-indicative in itself, if that makes sense).

i think you may have misinterpreted my use of the word "fake". i didn't use it to imply that he was lying or misrepresenting the situation in some other game - not at all. i used it in terms of describing his thought process, which didn't make sense to me as actually coming from town. i have no doubts that what he said about getting townread in that other game was actually true.

[northsidegal]

you're townreading TW yes?

-shrug-

i'm not scumreading him at the moment, and like i said i would imagine that if he were scum who bussed volxen he would've gone for more scum theater, which i don't recall (speaking purely from memory)

NSG, why do you think dunn is scum and why are you townreading ausuka?

i think dunnstral's day one could easily be seen in the context of being partnered with volxen

i think he has yet to do anything actually town-indicative

i think he's disengaged in a way that may be more scum-indicative

and, on more specific levels:

i think this post is scum indicative

tinfoil theory: Eragon is scum and his partner(s) felt the need to welcome him in thread to try to seem like they're not talking in pt

Not a serious theory jsut something to consider I guess

and i still think that he was being entirely unreasonable when it came to representing what i was actually trying to say regarding Kop. i think town dunnstral is normally pretty reasonable, so the lack of that raises alarm for me.

[northsidegal]

also... I was in that game. I know why he was bothered. basically, no one liked much of what GNB said but it was so many words it was hard to think it ever came from scum. I think that annoyed him cause people started to clear him without interacting with his posts in any meaningful way.

getting townread and people ignoring your posts are two entirely different issues

if your posts getting ignored is what upsets you then it makes sense to make comments regarding that. getting townread for reasons you believe are invalid is entirely unrelated to that subject matter.

[northsidegal]

if there's somewhere specific you want to end up with in this debate then i would be interested to hear it

barring that i don't think it's actually particularly productive to continue this discussion.

[northsidegal]

so good at mafia, this kid

I'll literally let you tell me which one of dunn/ausuka is best today, I think you're leaning dunn and that's fine by me tbh

I did like his ausuka wolfread a lot on d1/today and I like that he mocked NSG as a towny thing to be doing

what is your actual read on dunnstral? it's seemed to jump around quite a lot recently.

speaking of which
VOTE: dunnstral

[northsidegal]

I think the one being unreasonable is you since I don't think you ever went back and checked if what you were saying was true but kept pushing for it

bolded is unambiguously wrong

furthermore the discussion was regarding whether or not what i was looking at could even be ai in the first place, which you said / implied could not be the case - your argument was never one regarding kop specifically, and neither was mine beyond my initial post

[northsidegal]

oh, uh

i think dunnstral is scum again (again? still? honestly cannot remember what conclusion i came to yesterday)

I don't even think I was posting so it's weird that you bring this up here to be honest

did you miss the part where i said i hadn't caught up on the game until then?

[northsidegal]

nsg are you caught up yet

what makes you think i'm not

[northsidegal]

yeah it is, sorry

[northsidegal]

Okay hi great I'm catching up what do you think of Tora rn?

not exactly townreading him but don't have all that specific reasons to scumread him either. waiting on his explanation for his dunn read

oh my god im the most awesomest FM player ever(complete /s)

i definitley didnt fall asleep at my desk, wake up and shut down my computer, losing all the open windows, then went to my golf tournement and forgot about everything.

Truly, none of this actually happened. (/s)

how did your golf tournament go?

[northsidegal]

Are you sring Not Voting?

"wolfy pop-in"

-ruby red, 2018

pretty good actually, shot 3 over and got 4th place :3

congratulations! you're much better than i am

[northsidegal]

I just read her case and looks pretty empty

it wasn't meant to be a "case" in the first place (moreso just trying to explain where i was coming from), but even then; empty how? why don't you elaborate for me?

@Irrelephant - if me and you are the loud townies who are pushing the Dunnstral “misslynch”.... who are the scum opportunistically hopping on to our misguided suspicion?

ausuka and nsg lel

I know it wasn't to me that you asked but

toranaga knows

i'm "hopping on" to your misguided suspicion when my vote is the first on the wagon...?

[northsidegal]

for the record i'm still pretty null on nauci

[northsidegal]

for the record i'm still pretty null on nauci

Nauci is in this game?

I'm fully not joking when I say I'm pretty sure this is how the Nauci I know would play scum

and I'm not gaslighting
and I'm not poking her into vomiting content
I'm just nervous

yeah i mean that thought was what prompted the comment but i guess i didn't have anything specifically scum-indicative to point out

just a lack of towniness, although i've taken that to be a scumtell in the past, so -shrug-

[northsidegal]

I like that I voted an english girl with a gif from an english show

cultural af

what makes you think i'm english?

[northsidegal]

i guess i'm doing gamma emerald style catch-ups now

the world of being washed up, what a life

[northsidegal]

by the way ducky when you refer to (The Tell™) for nauci, does it by any chance have any relation to the team mafia tiebreaker game / did it come from mathdino?

[northsidegal]

one of the games she posted so much so hard she was still top poster d3 and died n1

and it was a lot of... meta diving people, making very deep reads

what game was this? not doubting you, just wondering so i can look back

lurk then replace out :< :< :<

this one was because of a long v/la though

nauci is town as fuck

i'm liking the meta reads much more for town than the catch-up posts honestly, although i'm still not sure how actually town-indicative they are - after all, meta reads are pretty factual; it's a lot of just straight up pointing to evidence and a lot less of your own personal take on things, so they can come from town or scum equally as often. i think as scum (at least, in one game) i used meta reads as a crutch to avoid having to give real reads (not to say that i don't use meta a lot as town or that you should take it as a scumtell - don't do that.)

in terms of why i didn't like the catch-up posts for town, it's because they reminded me a lot of a scumgame i played on a secret alt once where if you just sort of read through the thread and react to a lot of posts it comes out as just a lot of words which people are inclined to towntell

and also i still haven't seen The Tell assuming that The Tell is what i think it is.

[northsidegal]

In the green: Nauci is almost certainly town, as I think volxen was being survivalistic at the end there by trying to get sesq to unvote correctly and move wagons back to sesq

i'm not making any comment specifically on the context of this game, but moreso this as an idea in general

i think a good case study for why what you're saying here may not necessarily always hold true and should definitely be re-examined come later days (or today; nothing says you have to wait) is Mini Normal 1996, which i modded. early on day 1 pretty much the entire scumteam got caught - that is, at different points throughout the day all of them had major wagons start to form on them. they recognized this, and as a strategy decided to immediately all turn against eachother and hardbus. scum got lynched day one, but going down he made his partners look really good by contributing to their wagons. the scumteam didn't even know for which of them the lynch would actually go through on, but no matter who it was they would turn out looking good.

and so that's exactly what happened, scum got cleared from associations for a few days before i think some role shenanigans brought it back for town.

my main takeaway from that game was that a scumteam that's caught early on might turn on itself as a strategy, pushing one person down to raise the rest of them up. there was actually a time where i was considering making a "reminders / advice / 'words of wisdom' " section on my wiki and including that there, but i never got around to it.

anyways, that just reminded me of that thing that i had been thinking about for a while but never really had a chance to say.

[northsidegal]

she is writing many words that lead the game nowhere, instead of pursuing things she finds alignment indicative.

there's no way to tell if a conversation will end up being alignment-indicative before you start it. thus, your point that i'm "wasting words" on something NAI holds no water. once i realized that i didn't really find GNB scummy for his viewpoint and stated that, i pretty much dropped the conversation except only when other people brought it up.

again. this is GNB's nonread all over again. she is voting dunnstral without talking about him at all in any meaningful way, and then starts going over... commas? and if he is now talking in commas, so what? is that anything indicative? why is she not talking about her actual scumread? why are the things NSG points out so blatantly not scummy things at all?

shut up!! i'm never talking about the commas point again. i've already said everything there is to say about it.

don't care about responding to the rest

[northsidegal]

"not pushing" things is not scum indicative because that's who i am as a person. it's been a while since i've pushed something very hard. the only times i really push scumreads hard is on secret alts where i care less about being wrong and as such am less meticulous. obviously a meticulous style when i'm as busy as i am recently ends up being more of a lazy style as i put off things more and more (i.e. metadiving people), but that's who i am.

"oh no, she's not """progressing the gamestate!""""
want to know who isn't doing that but is also actually scum? dunnstral.

[northsidegal]

oh ok then i'll just follow consensus reads. dunnstral and me are the scumteam. game solved yay

"towny"

"ausuka probs v"

-Ruby Red, 2018

[northsidegal]

Spoiler: rude comment inside, i apologize in advance

~~if you still think i'm scum you are bad at mafia or you are scum!~~

[northsidegal]

that's a classic thread! i remember reading through it.

[northsidegal]

is it a towntell to agree with someone else pointing out the potentially questionable reasoning for a townread on yourself?

not sure!

[northsidegal]

Spoiler: rude comment inside, i apologize in advance

~~if you still think i'm scum you are bad at mafia or you are scum!~~

Thanks for saving me from making a wallpost for 2 hours

don't let me stop you

is it a towntell to agree with someone else pointing out the potentially questionable reasoning for a townread on yourself?

not sure!

is this about me

I'm so lost

yeah. my 1138 was about why volxen's push on your slot as he was going down may not be a reason to associatevly townread you (which you agreed with). what did you think it was about?

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

it was more of a joke than anything serious. i don't really think that if people don't townread me they're bad or scum

[northsidegal]

This game is about survival.
And Dunnstral’s supposed scum game isn’t helping him survive.
Scum-Dunnstral gets no benefit out of this or his remaining teammate: even if his partner busses, they’d get no town-cred.
It’s tactical suicide.

i think this is fallacious

the fact that someone may not be playing a good scumgame does not preclude that person from being scum. i know that my scum game certainly doesn't help me survive very long, and yet it's not as if i can just choose to not play the way that i do as scum.

basically, you boil someone's scumgame down to a matter of entirely choice, which in my opinion is not a very accurate picture at all.

[northsidegal]

irrel, if dunn is still part of your lynchpool then mind joining me on him?

[northsidegal]

Dunnstral:

- defends scum
- opposes wagon on scum
- attacks town
- encourages wagon on town
- not motivated (or happy to be seen to not be motivated) about scum hunting
- no pro-active urgency demonstrated while being the lead wagon today
- weak ISO
- zero town cred won from D1 (Volxen bud was there for the taking)
- zero motivation to gain town cred for D2
- Lame OMGUS read
- minimal WIM


Tora opened up my eyes to town read him via WIFOM.

Scum-Dunstral would never survive to LYLO playing like this.

Proof of the pudding: he’s been in nearly everybody’s POE today, and likely some people will even want to kickstart his wagon before the deadline.

like that same viewpoint is reflected here and in my opinion it's entirely counterintuitive - you're recognizing a lot of reasons for why dunnstral is scum and then coming to the conclusion that "no way would he make it that obvious if he were scum"

and to that i would say

sometimes maybe you should keep it simple and see what happens

[northsidegal]

why did you want sesq over volxen lynched last gameday

i thought sesq was more likely to be scum whereas i didn't have very specific reasons to scumread volxen

[northsidegal]

but tbh i havent really cased NSG, if they had continued "people pushing me are scum or bad" i woulda hard-pushed them, but they said its a joke so ehhhh

do you think it's a scummy thing to do or something? that sounds like you would push me just for personally disliking the "people pushing me are bad" argument

and while i don't disagree with disliking that argument i would question pushing someone over it

[northsidegal]

on an entirely separate note i'm curious as to why people are townreading toranaga, as i'm not really seeing it, although it's not really a conversation that i feel is all that important to have right now

if i were to die though i think the main thing i would want people to keep in mind would be to not townread him quite so easily, and that's really because i think that on our current track this town could win without any other advice except for that, not because i think he's the most likely to be scum or anything.

[northsidegal]

i 100% think thats a scummy thing to do, if you had continued it.

its an easy way to deflect an argument, especilly given no reasoning, as well as a way to hop into an OMGUS.

EX: Tora cases you, you pull that quote up. You dont respond to case. You vote Tora.

Its a way to get out of defending yourself and a way to vote people that think you are scum, all while being pre-ordained

-shrug-

as an argument (especially it going as you put it) it's fairly ridiculous and i would never make it. i might make some specific variation of it (i.e. this person wouldn't be pushing me as town because of our history together, etc.)

in any case i still think in the situation you described you would be voting that person moreso for the things they do using that argument rather than the argument in the first place, i.e. voting someone fo rnot giving any justification or not responding to a case

not actually for the argument in the first place

although i guess this point isn't really all that relevant.

[northsidegal]

lol

[northsidegal]

huh? that's a surprise. i would consider that one of my worse towngames, honestly - maybe even the start of the era of my being washed up.

[northsidegal]

k

[northsidegal]

sorry, i don't really have much else to really say in response.

[northsidegal]

well she is pushing nada here

wrong? like, i'm still pushing for dunnstral's lynch. i'm not sure how you can say that that isn't what i'm doing

[northsidegal]

not sure how much of an authority i am to speak on the subject, although a line i remember from team mafia is "scum!dunn is incapable of original thought"

[northsidegal]

regain motivation for this game by playing on an alt

haha, i know the feeling.

[northsidegal]

i'm fine with either a dunnstral lynch or an eragon lynch

i should note that i have't really put in much effort to read eragon but one thing i do remember (that the ducky pointed out, i think) was an apparent sudden switch to wanting dunnstral lynched right as a wagon on him was about to form, which seems pretty scum indicative

[northsidegal]

this may not be NSG at her full town power

hahaha, you make me sound like some kind or final boss of a video game or something

[northsidegal]

probably coming around to nauci town

[northsidegal]

oh what volxen claimed watcher and got lynched anyways?

genuinely was not aware of this. i should probably reread that section of the game. i guess i townread tw a little less from what i've read (going back to my thing about the associatives and such). there wasn't really any "theater" between the two but tw certainly seemed quite confident in volxen flipping scum. not sure right now how to evaluate that.

[northsidegal]

Huh

I realize that the remaining mafia needed to kill someone who is unlikely to be watched but wow I thought that one of the really active posters would have gone down

But Dunn/Ausuka are ridiculously useful flips IMO

Also gj everyone on dunking scum two days in a row \o/

i imagine scum thought ausuka softed watcher in one of her posts

[northsidegal]

in before she is the watcher

hi

I literally have not read that page for like hours wtf

[northsidegal]

yeah

anyways
VOTE: toranaga

[northsidegal]

what're the odds reundo is scum?

[northsidegal]

what're the odds reundo is scum?

meh, not sure. he was right there on the volxen wagon, but townread dunnstral day 2 (albeit for reasons consistent with reasons for him townreading me). his reaction at the end of the day seems pretty strange to me coming from someone who had a townread on dunn, though.

Wellplayed Ausuka x

[northsidegal]

actually i was going to wait and see how he entered the thread but i don't feel the need

VOTE: the worst

having reread the game this is kinda clearly the ducky's scumgame here, especially from his interactions with volxen and the way he talked about dunnstral. kind of kicking myeslf for missing the end of day one yesterday, honestly.

[northsidegal]

im like 95% confident last scum is in (keyser/NSG)

excuse me

[northsidegal]

on the second part, not necessarily the first

[northsidegal]

last scum is actually incredibly hard to figure out and I can see eragon's posts on d2 as not w/w with dunn as well

I really don't know where to go.

are we sure nauci is town?

yes, nauci is town. the duck is scum.

[northsidegal]

yeah so my super scumread on the ducky was pretty much mostly a reaction test (didn't exactly get anything spectacular)

that's not to say i townread him (still think there's a decent chance he's scum, i'm just not as sure as i projected. need to do a bit more research and reading)

anyways, i would be surprised if this game wasn't won by lynching toranaga, the worst and eragon (maybe in that order)

[northsidegal]

eragon scum being based off of how dunnstral came at me when i noted the punctuation thing about kop in much the same way that he only really showed up to attack the people scumreading volxen

ducky scum being based off of potential overconfidence in volxen's scumflip and maybe the eragon wagon / position on dunnstral day two (obviously given town!eragon if ducky!scum)

toranaga scum being based off of just my own personal scumread, as well as i guess the really weird way that his dunnstral read flipped like 10 times during the first few days of Day 2

[northsidegal]

NSG why is Reundo near locktown for you in that case?

oh hmm

i uh, forgot about reundo

[northsidegal]

dang, will i have to give up my pet scumread of toranaga? we only have 3 lynches left really

[northsidegal]

or maybe i should be more realistic about eragon not being scum because of his position as dunn's counterwagon?

[northsidegal]

hm, more i read of reundo more i think he's got a decent shot at being scum.

[northsidegal]

yeah content wise i really don't think it's eragon, my only reason for thinking he would be scum would be the kop thing

so yeah, probably not him

[northsidegal]

remove me and toranage,
add TW and Keyser I guess?

yes and no

and

yes and no (besides, the worst is already there, why are you adding him twice?)

[northsidegal]

sad thing is I agree

why is that sad?

why should i be townreading toranaga?

[northsidegal]

meh

i'm stuck between looking at toranaga like a Lady Lambdadelta situation where if i don't push this scumread through then nobody else shares my read and you guys get endgamed, and just thinking that reundo might have more scum equity.

in some sense it makes sense to go for the safe play and lynch tor first if reundo will get lynched anyways without me alive, but in another, less logical and more prideful sense i would prefer to lynch scum three days in a row.

because I feel Reundo played a pretty good game, and would be obv. town in normal conditions.

but it seems like that should be the way for everyone

if you're saying that the only reason reundo is being scumread is because his partners got lynched already and the associatives are catching him, my scumread on him isn't really based on associatives at all. not the main parts of it, at least.

[northsidegal]

hey guys

let's not lynch the duck before reundo does things

[northsidegal]

i would place reundo as being more likely to be scum than the duck

and checking my iso i just realized i'm still voting the duck, so oops
VOTE: reundo

[northsidegal]

Why would scum-Reundo put their neck out like this?

They had the D3:TW and D4:Keyser lynches lined up for the win

we have three lynches left. what's more, i wouldn't call you someone who's lined up for a lynch, although that just may be another disconnect between my own thinking and the majority thoughts of everyone else (as with my toranaga read)


even further, going for one "lined up lynch" before the other one isn't exactly sticking one's neck out, don't you think? this feels like another dunnstral situation where you're overcomplicating / overthinking things.

[northsidegal]

Even if my lynch is the wrong lynch, it’s the right lynch potentially tomorrow just so those 3 players reset their reads and re-evaluate (even Irrelphant may be forced to put me in their PoE for tomorrow).

i don't think i'll ever agree with this mentality

[northsidegal]

i would place reundo as being more likely to be scum than the duck

and checking my iso i just realized i'm still voting the duck, so oops
VOTE: reundo

Pls explain

Dankeschön

a combination of disengagement following volxen's lynch, elli-tell, and a reaction to dunn's lynch that seems inconsistent with his previously stated position in such a way that makes it look to me like scum talking about a buddy getting lynched

[northsidegal]

elli-tell

tell me more

Ellitell (2012): People who are active in all games save one are scum in said game.

[northsidegal]

let's not

[northsidegal]

nevermind

[northsidegal]

but I don't understand why scum reundo would voice disapproval about dunnstral being lynched when he couldn't stop it?

mind elaborating on what you mean by "he couldn't stop it"? at the time that he made his 1266, it definitely wasn't a certainty or anything that dunnstral would be the one lynched.

[northsidegal]

Meh, I'm not too happy with this lynch, but it is what it is. Let's see if we can't get some spicy twilight reactions from Dunn.

I was referring to this post

he would have to voice disapproval because that's what his previous opinion was

at the same time i wouldn't really call that "disapproval" myself, which is some of the basis for why i'm scumreading him. he was pretty clear that dunn was one of the people he didn't want to lynch (if i recall correctly) and so that sort of reaction really reads to me like "oh i need to say something about my scumbuddy getting lynched" rather than "wow this town just lynched my townread what the hell"

and actually looking at it again the idea of "spicy twilight reactions" would only be meaningful if someone is flipping scum and you're looking for associatives. so in that regard it could also be said that he knows that dunn will be flipping scum. maybe a tinfoil theory, but it makes sense to me.

[northsidegal]

like, i think going from this:

Most of that is going based off of just D1 so I might need to do a re-read to refresh my thoughts, but in a nutshell I'm most hesistant against a northsidegal lynch, semi-hesistant against a Dunn lynch, and not really that hesitant against an Ausuka lynch as well. I feel that people are almost too eager to lynch Ausuka though, so that's throwing me off a little, so I might consider starting a counter-wagon at some point. Also, Nauci is oozing town, and that's after considering possible buddying with regards to her high praises of me (which I appreciate a lot, fwiw ), so everyone suspecting her is probably sus af.

to this:

Meh, I'm not too happy with this lynch, but it is what it is. Let's see if we can't get some spicy twilight reactions from Dunn.

is mainly what i'm trying to highlight here as not being a genuine progression.

[northsidegal]

i don't like how reundo's only mention of dunnstral is with regards to how he himself should be read and he doesn't take into account interactions with dunn when reading anybody else

[northsidegal]

i don't like how reundo's only mention of dunnstral is with regards to how he himself should be read and he doesn't take into account interactions with dunn when reading anybody else

i'd like to elaborate on this a little bit

the only area of reundo's 1823 in which he seems to take dunnstra's scumflip into any consideration at all is in his defense of himself, arguing that if he hard-bussed his partner (volxen) day one then theoretically he should have had no reservations about also bussing dunnstral. in none of his reads on other players does he mention associatives with dunnstral, despite mentioning plenty of interactions with volxen for various people when it comes to justifying his reads on them. i would argue from my own point of view that this is most apparent in his null-read on me which doesn't seem to take into consideration my influence when it came to dunnstral's lynch at all, but obviously you could say that's biased.

i would say that this shows a lack of true consideration when it comes to reads from reundo's part - he can talk in-depth about interactions with volxen, but he hasn't actually put in the work to come up with fake reads that take into account the dunnstral interactions, and so he just doesn't mention them. in essence, he's not reading the thread to make genuine reads.

[northsidegal]

that's l-1

would appreciate reundo claiming

[northsidegal]

if you're not scum who the hell is?

toranaga or you, probably

[northsidegal]

Uh... this is mostly because I didn't really pay attention to much of what happened during D2 because it turned into a literal spam-fest and I was already starting to lost interest in this game. My reads list was mostly going off what happened D1 and my vague rememberings of what happened D2 -- I mentioned in my reads list that I wanted to ISO re-reads of everyone "particularly when it comes to D2" because I know I haven't been paying attention to that part of the game as much as I should have. Associations with regards to Dunnstral is probably one of the first things I'm going to be looking at in my re-read.

don't you think that's the kind of thing that should have been more at the forefront of what you were saying, if true? i mean, it just seems strange to me to put someone forward as your top pick for scum so confidently despite knowing that there's a large (and arguably incredibly important) part of the game that you just aren't taking into account.

i mean, you even said this regarding rereading the game:

That being said, I don't expect the players in my town and scum brackets to shift at all, and I'm pretty confident scum is just between the worst and Keyser.

shouldn't associatives with dunnstral be the exact kind of thing that you would expect to shift the players in your town or scum brackets?

[northsidegal]

let's talk about your keyser read popping up today and where it was yesterday

because, reading through your iso, at around the start of day two you were saying that keyser "basically claimed scum" and made a massive case, but pretty much dropped it in a single sentence about how you might have been giving into confirmation bias. so what happened? did you still scumread keyser day two? if not, what happened to suddenly spark up the scumread again - after all, it probably wasn't anything from day 2, was it?

[northsidegal]

by the way, don't you think that what you said about yourself when it comes to willingness to bus volxen and yet not bussing dunnstral would also hold true when it comes to the worst?

[northsidegal]

meh


huntress' top scumread was keyser

ausukas' as well? dont remember

[northsidegal]

assuming duck isn't twilight trolling I think my opinions have been made clear

don't get endgamed by toranaga

[northsidegal]

hey, good game all.

4. lol-posting is NAI. in Micro 827(granted i was scum) NSG called me out for lol-posting and i got super tilted and pretty much quit on the game because it was so retarded.

not what i was scumreading you for.

[northsidegal]

good job figuring out it was eragon, guys. i made a pretty big mistake in not following one of my own rules / reminders, that a caught scumteam often tries to stay afloat by pushing eachother down. i wrote eragon off a bit too easily because of that. i should have also put more weight into the fact that a large majority of dunn's ISO was just popping in to defend his scumbuddies, so that pattern should've also pointed to kop looking back. even more, i probably should've just ended up actually looking through kop's history to see if his sentence structure really was meaningful, which i still have yet to actually do.

-shrug-

i feel vaguely alright about how i played this game. i was right on dunnstral. i was wrong on volxen, but i didn't do anything to prevent his lynch from going through. probably the worst thing i could've done was set you guys up for failure by saying not to get endgamed by tor and leading to a loss there. probably the way to avoid that would've been putting more into reading the ducky: while i still think tor and reundo's lynches would've been reasonable given the evidence, ducky's probably could've been avoided if i put more effort in.

[northsidegal]

(and given the ducky's lynch not happening, there are three lynches left: enough to lynch reundo, tor and eragon in any order. obviously i could say that do to better i could've just realized who the actual scum was, but that's easier said than done really. just thinking about easy changes i could've made.)