Mini Normal 2024 - Endgame

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Lalendra

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey Alchemist, long time no see man. How are you?

In other news, TChill might be scum!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I said TChill might be scum now I'm wondering why everyone hasn't voted for him.

Maybe you guys missed it? I think TChill could be scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Usually, I find scum, tell everyone else they're scum and then we lynch them leading to a town victory!

Yayyyyy!

Sound like a plan?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I’ve been ok. Mostly just been looking after my parents. How have you been?

I've been alright man, just trying to get back into Mafia again after some time out.

Agree with the Rei read fn. In my previous game with her she was really obvious as town and the way she writes stuff makes me feel she’d be weak under pressure as scum.

But she hasn't been under pressure so the town read seems premature?

VOTE: twain
grasping at straws much?

Is that not exactly what you're doing? Is that not what happens in every single RVS? Someone finds something small to push and then the game develops? This is an awful vote.

You're gonna vote me for not answering a question about a silly rvs post? Hmm. Keep it there I guess.

TChill, I think the question was fair and I think you also know that scum can be caught from single RVS/entrance posts for various reasons. You ducking the question doesn't look good.

Alright, I actually have quite a lot of reads considering we're only on page 5 so that's a good thing.

VOTE: Nauci

Let's make this happen.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod, would it be possible to get the wagons with most votes at the top of the VC please?

Makes them much easier to read. Thanks.

Oh Alright. Since it has been requested by multiple players, I will. Just makes record keeping on my end much more annoying to do it that way. -Mod

PS this is literally the first game in 7 years of modding to have players request I do it that way.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nauci's 81 felt like a set up vote - it was over explained. Scum tend to do this as they worry about justifying their votes a lot more than town.

I don't particularly care about your read on me. What do you want me to say? You're wrong so move on?

I'm townreading (to varying degrees) you, Alch and Irrelephant.

Scum reading DrDo and Nauci. Maybe TChill as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is that you still dodging the question TChill?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Then why haven't you answered it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Jesus that was a fast 2 days. I'll post as soon as I can, have been skimming but need to read properly

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Votes on Nauci or NSG? If so why is your vote not on there yet?

Surface level scum hunting from DDL. Not a fan of his play to this point.

I actually reread the thread a couple of times Friday and Saturday to try and figure out where I wanted to pressure, but couldn't settle any where in particular among the people I don't town read, and think that Irrelephant isn't any worse or better than those wagons. I think the DDL wagon is more effective w/o the person he's voting on it, and I don't think Irrelephant has been towny yet and that he does respond to pressure.

I'd say my reads at the moment are

Slight Town Lean:

ejjnami
tchill
twain

Conflicted Null:

BBT
Mumble
DDL

Unknown null:

Irrelephant
Rei
Alchemist

Slight Scum Lean:

NSG
Lalendra
Kop

But with half of the game not having post much and a bias against lurkers, it's hard to say.

My experience with NSG is that she's more talkative later in the game but casually chatty in the beginning, but I thought she'd been kinda busy in general lately (though, that *is* weird to then /in games). I thought I'd wait until tomorrow since people are inactive on the weekends.

This looks like a scum post, trying to look like they're engaging with the game. So many words and yet so little said. Like, two separate null categories is just bad, but it's there to fluff the 'reads-list' out a little. Not to mention the reads are very safe.

first of all, i kind of think that nauci is town here.

Alright. I'm listening.

I'm not lynching Someone who's known as lynchbait and has only made one post because that's too easy, anyone pushing that is coming off as false scum hunting imo.

I mean, it could also be argued that scum reading TChill for pushing lurkers is an equally 'easy' read to give/push.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wat

That's not what that post said

It definitely was - you had them as your 3 'slight scum reads'.

you know what happens to lynchbait? they make it to lylo. Scum and town chit chat for a bit. "i guess so and so wasn't lynchbait, theyre actually scum" Town gets lynched. Scum win.

Let me be very clear. If you can't clear "lynchbait" players as town for any reason other than meta then GTFO OF HERE AND STOP USING THE WORD "LYNCHBAIT".

that is all.

TChill my man, if more players took this approach people would be forced to play the game in an engaging manner.

no. Scum want those types of players in lylo.

Scum SHOULD do what they can to surround themselves with the easiest group to win in lylo. You can NK town leaders, lynch middle of the pack players... for me though. I want lurkers in lylo if im scum.

It's actually the opposite of perfect for scum to chase. Its the worst lynch for scum to chase.

Dropping knowledge bombs all over the place.

VOTE: Mumble

Where was your explanation for voting me? And why have you joined the Mumble wagon?

Townreading Nauci and nsg, and more than happy to sheep them onto someone I don't townread VOTE: Mumble

Talk about both of these town reads please?

VOTE COUNT 1.5

Mumble (4) - Tchill13, northsidegal, Nauci, Irrelephant11
Nauci (4) - Kop, Alchemist21, Mumble, BlueBloodedToffee

That was a fairly quick CW to the Nauci wagon. Interesting.

Irrelephant, you're on the wrong leading wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I liked TWAIN's 213 and 233. UNVOTE:

- Town reads on NSG (who's done nothing all game to get towncred)+ Nauci (a flip from an earlier scumread? for what? Nauci's post has been pretty consistent in nature, so any reads should also be consistent) and sounds like a casual excuse to go on a mumble's wagon wtf

VOTE: irrelephant

What did you like about Twain's posts?

Just to be clear, are you scum reading Irrelephant because you disagree with his town reads?

Nauci + Irrelephant scum you heard it here first guys.

Then vote Nauci with me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

]
i don't think these things are actually scum-indicative

I do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So yall all know mumble is town? How's that?

Mumbles posting is actually decent - plus the CW to Nauci was way too easy.

A question for you - why Mumbles over say Kop or Lalendra? Not only is Kop a low poster but what he has posted has been bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nsg, also still waiting for you tell me why Nauci is town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Aww man, you had a 50/50 choice and chose the wrong one.

If you're gonna vote a low poster, it needs to be Kop. I'd much prefer you to join the Nauci wagon though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think kop is putting in effort.

Even though his reads are super weird and I don't agree with them I could see them coming from a "tryhard" town so to speak.

Effort isn't alignment indicative.

And what reads has he given?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hot take: both mumble and Nauci are town.

I'd like everyone to comment on that btw.
I'll explain my reads after I get back home (prob tomorrow morning/afternoon or sth like that).

I like Mumble for town.

Nauci is scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know what you want me to say ejj.

You're making bad assumptions? And pre-flip associations? It's all bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Kop

[BlueBloodedToffee]

TChill, you need to talk about that Kop read because what you just said sounds like BS.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm telling you that you talking about the reads Kop's giving despite the fact Kops given 0 reads sounds to me as if you're not

really

trying to game solve. And if you're not game solving, you're scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Kop hasn't given reads of players. He has given reads, or opinions, of other information.

Show me what reads

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Most of the stuff you quoted was game theory - there may have been 1 read on Lalendra somewhere in there but that's about it.

My play changes depending on the time I have available, at the moment I don't have a lot of time and so I can't play how I would like to.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't forget guys that DDL is prob scum.

Kop/DDL are scum. Unsure on the last one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It could be town.

It could be scum looking for an avenue to push back on a townie? I didn't like TChill's read at all though. If we could, I would lynch TChill or DDL over Kop.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't pay much attention to it tbh and don't recall much from it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a pretty good post Alch and I think I can get on board with that. Voting Irrelepant doesn't interest me Today though - how about DDL?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What’s your reason for scumreading Dr Dolittle?

Mostly surface level scum hunting. Like, his scum hunting doesn't feel real if that makes sense?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: DDL

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would easily lynch you TChill. Easily.

I think DDL is a slightly stronger read though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

TChill is scum.

And one of DDL/Lalendra is a buddy. Probably DDL.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Any reason you're voting DDL?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Any reason for thinking DDL is scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT's stance is odd from a town pov. He's fos'd me the whole game and opened up on ddl. Once I voted ddl he questions it so I can't easily bus with no reason from his pov. My issue is he's more confident in his SR of me than ddl. Instead of voting me he fos's other slots.

Scum won't be able to easily lynch me. Bbt knows this. I hardly ever get mislynched as town. If it wasn't for a rush while I was gone the last game Bbt was scum against me he knows I wouldn't have been lynched. So from my pov it'll be easier for him to sus rather than push me.

This entire post is completely moot when you consider DDL was my first scum read in this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

132

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I said DDL is probably scum out of DDL and Lalendra.

You're taking it out of context.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Looks like I'm going to have to effort this game seems as people don't seem to want to lynch scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why is DDL receiving so little attention?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

795 is bad from DDL and I'm hoping people can see why without me having to explain it

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, the whole lack of progression on reads thing because he was tunneling D1 doesn't set off any red flags for you?

Like, he completely avoids having to be consistent with his reads or reevaluate his play by simply stating that he was so focused on Irrelphant D1 that he literally had NOTHING ELSE to contribute to the gamestate so had to 'reset'.

Come on. Who is buying that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His 'reasons' for scum reading me can also be applied to Alchemist, Mumble, TChill and Lalendra.

So, I'd very much like to know why I'm so special and how he has identified that I am scum over any one of those.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can we lynch DDL first?

And can you explain what feels 'forced' about it given I have barely pushed on DDL as I haven't been properly active in this game yet.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We're both pushing (bussing) each other for absolutely no reason?

Tell me what makes it scum vs scum instead of scum vs town or town vs town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm asking you what the specific benefits would be right now, at this moment, in this game.

I'm asking you why, if myself and DDL are scum together, I decide to push DDL over say Nauci or TChill?

I'm asking you why DDL, after openly saying he is 'resetting' and then giving 3 scum reads, decides to bus his buddy out of the 3?

Do you believe this is optimal scum play? Do you believe I would play scum sub-optimally in this way? I don't understand your thinking here at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree, and my money would be on ejj because I find it very strange that he is in there.

Also, scum usually include their buddy in the list but don't actually vote them, you know? The classic FOS buddy but VOTE town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, I play as much as time permits me to play.

I can't do anymore than that.

@Alch - There would be no need for us to do that as scum right now. I'm still struggling to see how you're coming to that conclusion.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll hammer NSG if she gets to L-1.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nauci, how do you feel about them?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks for stepping in Penguin!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interesting that every (?) replacement is scum reading me. If you're town, you need to evaluate the game-state and realise what is happening.

I'm being pushed for a reason. Ask yourself, why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What about my play is scummy and where is the AtE?

Also, why is AtE scummy? And why are you acting like AtE is exclusively a scum trait?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you did, I missed it.

Link?

As for those two posts; I'm asking everyone to evaluate gamestate to try and understand what is happening. I don't see how that's AtE (also interesting that you hold the viewpoint I'm AtE'ing and someone else said I don't care about being scum read at all)

And the second post isn't AtE at all (do you know what AtE is?) The second post is me getting frustrated that people aren't seeing DDL as scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not at all like that HWS, the townie part is right though!

Krazy I will get to that soon enough. Need to be at my laptop.

Anyone got thoughts on DDL?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

the scum in three stuff is possibility. don't udnerstand why is bbt so against it if in fact he isn't scum with ddl

What do you think I'm against? I agreed with the scum in the 3 people listed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh yeah, I'm absolutely against the idea of myself and DDL being scum together.

Especially as I am confident in my scum read on him and don't particularly like the idea of being lynched next when I'm right.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Krazy/DDL/Alch scum team?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Creature why you no vote DDL?

I'm gonna give this game the effort it deserves over the weekend.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Creature, where did DDL go from your scum reads?

Toranaga, you replaced into a slot, thinking it would be a scum slot, even though you dislike playing scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

yeah I enjoy the challenge of subbing in late regardless, I just thought this had a >rand chance of landing on scum

Hmm, I don't know. Looks like you made the post to set yourself up to make a comment about how you're town. Seems way too forced and doesn't feel genuine.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

IDK anything and I'm just suggesting but that drdolittle ISO is an absolute garbage fire and deserves death

Why don't you actually vote DDL then?

If you and Creature vote him, we can actually form a wagon and start getting somewhere.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

yeah I enjoy the challenge of subbing in late regardless, I just thought this had a >rand chance of landing on scum

Hmm, I don't know. Looks like you made the post to set yourself up to make a comment about how you're town. Seems way too forced and doesn't feel genuine.

what part of it doesn't feel genuine?

The set up part and the part about replacing into what you thought would be a scum slot when you dislike playing scum but luckily you just so happen to be town!

It's a bit like the Amish tell.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is that now 3 people scum reading DDL but not voting him?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wanna help the DDL wagon?

Looks like a good one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT: his votes all of yesterday were very opportunistic on Nauci and on Kop. His reason on Nauci was that a post read fluff and 'safe', ignoring the fact that Nauci has been one of the leading posters and putting in effort at 163 (other than the weird 81 post praising irrel). The reason seems fake as hell, and more like an excuse to push to a lynch (Nauci was at L-3 and BBT was the 4th piling vote) Then, BBT switches to Kop as sees that wagon gaining momentum - and doesn't fully commit to Kop " If we could, I would lynch TChill or DDL over Kop." as if he knows kop will flip town, meanwhile setting up a lynch on me and tchill and potentially irre.

What do you define as an 'opportunistic vote'? Is every 4th vote on a wagon opportunistic? Because the only disagreement with my reasoning you have stated is that it seems 'fake as hell' which is hard to quantify and hard to dismiss. Like, how does it seem fake?

You also say 'putting in effort' and 'leading poster' as if that is somehow alignment indicative and negates my reasoning for voting Nauci. Effort is not indicative of alignment and neither is posting a lot. Why is the vote on Nauci seen as opportunistic and not advancement of the game state and pushing of a scum read? Early game wagons are always beneficial - even more so if the leading wagon is a scum read. So when you actually look at your disagreement of my Nauci push it actually comes down to you looking for an angle to attack me from.

Additionally, to dilute my post/read on Nauci to 'fluff and safe' is underselling what I wrote. I responded to a particular post and discussed in detail what I didn't like about it (which was quite a lot for an early game read, 291).

As for Kop, my first mention of a dislike for Kop's play came in 291 when Kop only had one vote. In 323 I again mention my dislike for Kop's play to this point of the game. And again in 326. At this point, Kop still only has one vote. I continue to address my disliking of Kop's play in 390 and then I finally vote him in 417 when he can become the leading wagon and a real lynch candidate. At what point am I allowed to vote a scum read? How is this vote opportunistic?

Will get to the rest in a moment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

A little side note that I need to come back to at some point; my vote on Kop reminded me that two separate counter-wagons sprung up to Nauci during D1 and both seemed to garner significant support fairly quickly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

i want to ask BBT question but idk how to ask it to get what i want back, let's try

bbt - what do you look at when you are scumhunting? what's alignment indicative? do you look for a purpose behind posts or something else?

I look at the motivation for posting what they post and I decide whether there is more town/scum motivation for posting it. I also use votes a lot - look at who people vote, why they vote them and stuff like that. Big advocate of VCA which I haven't actually got into too much in this game yet but I would like to.

But yeah, mostly motivation for posting and voting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You've just responded to nothing in my post.

Good job.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was aware of that post but I did not respond to it.

Now try responding to my post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I read your 795 as I called it a bad post. I couldn't know it was a bad post if I hadn't read it.

What a pointless question.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I did.

But I hadn't responded to it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You see when someone pushes something like DDL just tried to push on me?

It shows they're desperate. Town don't do this, scum do this when they're trying too hard to justify a read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What are you talking about? I genuinely cannot follow your thought process. You make some crazy assumptions based on what I write.

I said it was a bad question. It's a bad question because it's the same answer whether I am town or scum. Nothing to do with alignment.

The second point is about the way in which he tries to push it. It's not just one question, it's the wording and the basis of a push behind it. The words you put into quotes are not even close to what I have said.

I say 'Scum try to use any reason to justify a read'. You say 'That is a stupid action'. They're not even remotely similar.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: twain
grasping at straws much?

Is that not exactly what you're doing? Is that not what happens in every single RVS? Someone finds something small to push and then the game develops? This is an awful vote.

Since about here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi friends. I don't think that my initial post went out before I went to brunch for this morning. Sorry!

I've been ISOing my slot and the dead players get a general idea of what is going on. My initial take is severe suspicion of BlueBloodedToffee, especially with the recent DrDoolittle wagon. I am a fan of Post 1139, which feels genuine and gives good vibes. I am still going through things, but can get more details out going forward.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

And my response to his post?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Panthaleon, why am I scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What don't you like about my explanation for both of those votes on Kop and Nauci?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And what don't you like about my case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT I don't think there's anything that you can say that will make the votes on Kop or Nauci less suspicious to me. Frankly your pushes to try to get me to pin things down for you to argue does not seem to be coming from a pro town mindset. It's similar to your response to DDL. It feels like you are really, really focused on trying to win this argument.

I asked you who you believed was the scum on Kop's wagon day one, and you still have not addressed that. Why?

Then you're either playing the game sub-optimally as town or are just dismissing my explanations because you're scum.

You have a problem with two of my votes - I explained how and why those votes happened with reasoning behind it. You refuse to even consider or respond to my explanations - why would town do this?

I'm pushing for you to read my explantions for those votes and tell me why you still disagree with me or scum read me for those votes. As I said, continuing to scum read me for votes without looking into the explantiona for them is bad town play or you're just scum.

Why would I address your comment when you don't acknowledge my own response to your read?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm struggling to distinguish between bad town and scum in this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's L-2.

If someone puts me to L-1 I'll gladly hammer myself.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can't reach end game now. If I continue to live I become an easy lynch for scum later in the game, possibly in LyLo.

After this much suspicion on me, I'm a liability to town. After my lynch, lynch DDL and then look at the couple of people who defended me as town - one of them will be scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have to be lynched now. I can't make end game - vote me so I can hammer.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do I need to claim if I'm willing to self hammer?

Should be pretty obvious.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm an optimal player - and it's sub-optimal for town to let me live in this game.

Krazy is prob scum. Krazy/DDL and one of the people who defended me as town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: BBT

Good luck town. I think you're gonna need it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Says the player who wouldn't discuss a read or engage over my response to your concerns.

Get fucked.