Open 734: Paris Mafia (13-player variation) - Game Over

[lane0168]

VOTE: sesq

Feels good to be back. Hello guilty, faq2. Almost 50? Think I remember you? Hello to the rest as well.

[lane0168]

That is an aggressive amount of votes without anyone doubling up.

Vote: Sesq

Would also vote Lady Angel, Guilty Lion, or FA_Q

If it's because they didn't vote, wouldn't it only make sense to vote the last one? I'd assume the longer it goes on the more scummy in your eyes. And not exactly sure why sesq

[lane0168]

It feels like doubting Thomas is actively not trying to understand what happened with a50 and why he was talking about a DTmime flip... Which in itself is annoying at least.

What I don't like is DT essentially saying it's shady? For a50 to push a mime read (which isn't exactly true) but didn't feel as though there's a scum read...

DT, were you leaning scum on a50? ARE you leaning scum on a50? Tell me how you really feel.

VOTE: Thor

You don't have to respond with "I got us out of RVs didn't I?" But I think your questions on the way there were just.... I need to find the words.

[lane0168]

If it's because they didn't vote, wouldn't it only make sense to vote the last one? I'd assume the longer it goes on the more scummy in your eyes. And not exactly sure why sesq

Someone already asked me this - my answer remains the same; burden of proficiency.

Is there something about that answer you don't grok?

Because you have an equal scum read to them as someone you are voting - so what's the difference? Is your goal *not* to apply pressure with your vote? What are you doing voting if you need a case?

@Eragon

@Eragon

Well I don't know what grok is... But burden of proficiency eh? Do we know each other? Have we ever played with each other? Should I know you? I don't know what burden of proficiency has anything to do with it. Explain that.

[lane0168]

@DT: Read my posts PLEASE. Eragon and I had a debate about what made me think he might be Mime. He explained his PoV and I explained mine and we came to a semi-agreement that I might be wrong and he might have picked the wrong role to claim as a joke.

I concede -now- that I could see Town!Eragon making that post (his first), so my "Mime read" on him has dropped significantly, but you not reading the thread is alarming to me. It feels as it you're looking for legit stuff to poke to appear townie more than you actually questioning anything genuinely.

so you think scum!DoubtingThomas is not really reading the thread but at the same time trying to poke around to appear townie, despite the fact that me poking at stuff that is apparently easily understandable by just reading your thread would probably make me look worse?

i think you are trying to accusing me 'poking at the stuff to look townie' doesn't really add up if i dont even pay attention to the post like you are saying. lol

You have a hard time understanding things. And it's frustrating. And I don't know what to do about that

[lane0168]

Unvote

I fail to see him as mafia-aligned right now.

That being said, the possibility of lynching a mime actually makes me kind of scared to lynch. How viable would no lynch be as an option?

I don't know this person... But she makes me scared to lynch her... Or obviscum... Can someone help

[lane0168]

because there is a wide gap between not thinking and being actively scummy

then again;;;;

i have a problem where i just assume everyone is town. and i never feel my votes

Sometimes I feel myself

[lane0168]

This logical fallacy is based on the assumption that renowned players are expected to find scum. The attacker asserts that because the player in question has not yet found (enough) scum, they themselves are more likely to be scum...

So because he didn't find scum by the 4th post... He's the most likely to be scum?

I honestly thought you were confused about what burden of proficiency and were using it incorrectly

[lane0168]

I literally explained how I was using it.
Are you intentionally trying to be dense or did my actual explanation translate to what you're saying here?
I don't mind explaining myself, but if you're playing dense for reactions I'm already bored.

I'll let read again, and ask if I need to. It was kinda my thoughts after I skimmed through the first time. Then going back and noticed that so I talked about it. Not trying to be dense on purpose no

[lane0168]

I literally explained how I was using it.
Are you intentionally trying to be dense or did my actual explanation translate to what you're saying here?
I don't mind explaining myself, but if you're playing dense for reactions I'm already bored.

As far as I can tell you explained it as "burden of proficiency". So please, explain it again because I seem to misunderstand how sesq not finding scum yet makes him scum.

I've been thinking about this mime issue. I'm with thor as far as not worrying about lynching a mime. Well have rely heavily on vig and watcher to take care of it. At least personally I don't think I'll be able to tell the difference between scum and mime. After one is lynched, hopefully we'll have info on partner.

[lane0168]

If it's because they didn't vote, wouldn't it only make sense to vote the last one? I'd assume the longer it goes on the more scummy in your eyes. And not exactly sure why sesq

Someone already asked me this - my answer remains the same; burden of proficiency.

Is there something about that answer you don't grok?

Because you have an equal scum read to them as someone you are voting - so what's the difference? Is your goal *not* to apply pressure with your vote? What are you doing voting if you need a case?

@Eragon

@Eragon

Well I don't know what grok is... But burden of proficiency eh? Do we know each other? Have we ever played with each other? Should I know you? I don't know what burden of proficiency has anything to do with it. Explain that.

This is where I thought you were confused about what it was... I thought you were applying it to you and I? And to you and... Whoever else asked you about it.

This logical fallacy is based on the assumption that renowned players are expected to find scum. The attacker asserts that because the player in question has not yet found (enough) scum, they themselves are more likely to be scum...

So because he didn't find scum by the 4th post... He's the most likely to be scum?

I honestly thought you were confused about what burden of proficiency and were using it incorrectly

This is where I realized you weren't confused, I was confused. The additional questions were me working out my confusion in the moment.

When you said you already explained it, I thought I'd find it in the posts where you talked about burden of proficiency. I didn't know you were referencing our conversation.

But my vote isn't about that. It was your early game. Which I haven't addressed yet. I understand it looks as though i had attempted to "find the words" so I can't fault you for thinking that. But I haven't.

[lane0168]

I can get on that with you. I was wondering if it would be explained, especially after being questioned, but sesq's "really" post didn't exactly explain it.

VOTE: sesq

[lane0168]

Quick skim through, but, @a50 and @eragon, are you honestly continuing a conversation that was started on page 1... And did you plan this before day start?

[lane0168]

My cat has been in the hospital... I'm sorry about this. I'm not leaving, just why I think I'm probably on the verge of a prod

[lane0168]

I PROMISE I will say something that I think is useful tomorrow. Or at least say smelling that I hope will be useful.

Pedit. Hi Ari. Long time no see

[lane0168]

A50's push on the obviously fake vig claim is so bad it almost has to come from a mime.

OMG! I'm soooooo busted. I dare you (or your partner) can shoot me tonight to confirm it.

This, among other posts, feels like acting.

[lane0168]

innocentvillager replaces ldkldldldkdkdkdklllkkk

Straight upgrade.

you're going to be disappointed im super rusty and terrible at this game

Straight downgrade

This is where I thought you were confused about what it was... I thought you were applying it to you and I?

Why did you think that?
There's literally nothing either you or I said to draw that conclusion from.
I asked you about that earlier and you never responded.

When you said you already explained it, I thought I'd find it in the posts where you talked about burden of proficiency. I didn't know you were referencing our conversation.

It was exactly in that post - I quoted it for you in our last exchange.

But my vote isn't about that. It was your early game. Which I haven't addressed yet. I understand it looks as though i had attempted to "find the words" so I can't fault you for thinking that. But I haven't.

Okay.
Guess it won't matter now that you're leaping onto Sesq.
But then I don't think you're likely to convince me you're scumhunting anytime soon either, so...

So, we play to "read".. yet when there's nothing to read it is scummy to say so? We play to "find scum", what when nobody's been posting anything of substance and/or AI it is still my job to find scum based on "void"??

I'll be damned if this doesn't flip scum. My vote is stuck here until this slot is dead "one way or the other".

Almost, could we please not go down this rage tunnel thing again - haven't you moved past this habit yet? You and I both know there are sloppy and skillful town who are going to act that way and I rarely see the rage wagon trigger particularly useful feedback - I know it's happy to go down that pah and I still do it too much myself, but I actually like his alignment's odds to be town for calling out one of the more active and generically town read slots at this juncture, yeah?

Idk... It was just the way I interpreted it. I can't explain why that's where I applied your burden of proficiency. It doesn't make sense to me either.

[lane0168]

A50's push on the obviously fake vig claim is so bad it almost has to come from a mime.

oh i should've iso'd you first. but like this to me seems as plausible from goon as mime, like lion said there's too much interchangeable wifom.

Is it so bad is has to come from mime? Or so bad it has to come from scum trying to be like mime? That's where the wifom comes in and you just lynch who you think is not town.

[lane0168]

yeah it's feeling more and more like Sesq is more likely a mime with scum!FA_Q2 voting it

honestly I'm still fine with lynching the slot, if it's a Mime flip that's not the end of the world

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here; how do Sesq's Mime status and FA_Q2's scum status connect in your mind?

@A50 - Sure.

@Lane - I'm amazed that there is difficulty getting a wagon on you.

Not everyone likes being wrong, now back to me reading.

PS a50/thor

[lane0168]

@mod, approximately how long will deadline be after a replacement is found

Was thinking approximately 48-72 hours but it depends on some things with my own RL schedule

[lane0168]

@thor your asking what my vote does?

Shows who I think is scum

I get the impression that eragon had this long elaborate response typed up, then got concerned about how it would look, deleted it, and came up with this.

[lane0168]

Howdy Lane!
How've you been??

Really good

[lane0168]

I PROMISE I will say something that I think is useful tomorrow. Or at least say smelling that I hope will be useful.

Pedit. Hi Ari. Long time no see

Does it really take you that long t think of something?

Yes

[lane0168]

yeah it's feeling more and more like Sesq is more likely a mime with scum!FA_Q2 voting it

honestly I'm still fine with lynching the slot, if it's a Mime flip that's not the end of the world

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here; how do Sesq's Mime status and FA_Q2's scum status connect in your mind?

@A50 - Sure.

@Lane - I'm amazed that there is difficulty getting a wagon on you.

But honestly you can't be that amazed considering the quality of game being produced so far by most.

I just read through. This is a very "careful" game. I'm noticing that every other page has a "there's not much to talk about so far" post. Which leads me to believe there may just not be much to talk about. Or every single one of them is scum. Doubt that. It's essentially a whole bunch of gut reads and "shit posting" reads.

I can't proceed until I find something that I think is concrete evidence of scum thinking. That is when I get aggressive, but I don't see it. I just don't see it. Why?

[lane0168]

But honestly you can't be that amazed considering the quality of game being produced so far by most.

Considering the relative willingness most other wagons have felt for reasons that basically describe what you're doing - yeah, I'm a bit amazed.
Are you *not* noticing that? Like, you're amazed that Sesq has a wagon on him and is pushing a wagon on Guilty both of which can be described as 'meh, low content posting' while you sit there openly admitting you're low content posting with me being the only one bothered by your play?
Honestly?

I can't proceed until I find something that I think is concrete evidence of scum thinking. That is when I get aggressive, but I don't see it. I just don't see it. Why?

Considering that, if you're town, that there are two Mafia as well as two slots that should be actively trying to get you to scumread them...well, that just goes back to my reason for wanting to lynch you

I most certainly am noticing that. But what's not amazing to me, is people not jumping from a leading wagon to a non wagon for essentially the same case.

There isn't a solid case to be found... There hasn't been a shocker moment (Aside from a50 telling us all someone claimed scum, which if I had that same feeling is be extremely aggressive towards that spot) for me. A moment of confidence that what was just said came from scum.

I believe what I said about eragons post though. But it's got no legs to stand on in itself

[lane0168]

Thank god for true hero's like jingle

[lane0168]

@thor your asking what my vote does?

Shows who I think is scum

I get the impression that eragon had this long elaborate response typed up, then got concerned about how it would look, deleted it, and came up with this.

Disregard this

[lane0168]

@thor your asking what my vote does?

Shows who I think is scum

I get the impression that eragon had this long elaborate response typed up, then got concerned about how it would look, deleted it, and came up with this.

Disregard this

What were you thinking when you said it and why aren't you thinking it anymore?

I was thinking what I said when I said it, but doing an iso and seeing the whole picture, I really don't think eragon is scum

[lane0168]

I should add I generally am mobile, so I comment on things that stick out, especially when catching up the way I had to. So I didn't initially dive deeper into it. If you're wondering why I said anything before I had a more informed stance

[lane0168]

VOTE: a50

Aggressively serious vote, am caught up, can discuss when not mobile.

Good vote! I also suspect this guy, but I've been a victim of conf!bias before so I'm reluctant to vote there myself.

Agreed

[lane0168]

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

I don't see what is suspect that you're the only one. Why are you so concerned that people switch to me, which is a case that you've admitted is essentially the same as any other?

I don't exactly know what you mean by suspect. You can't suspect anything from something everyone is doing. What is more suspect would be your insistance that the case on me is the same, and therefore I should be voted. Which makes no sense.

[lane0168]

I'll put it this way, if you are a car salesman, would you try to sell a customer the exact same car they already own, and then complain to them because they don't want the same car they already own? Because thats a bad salesman.

Feel free to explain how this is different

[lane0168]

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

Who is doing B?

Couldn't tell you. Is there another possibility of why people aren't following you? If you think it's exclusively that people disagree with you, why is that suspect?

[lane0168]

VOTE: Sesq

@Sesq: Congrats on almost getting your immediate goal (of getting lynched) done. I am now forced to vote you to get the wagons even, and I think it's slightly more likely that you would get lynched over me.

[Redacted] I'll leave this till later.

You'll probably be the Lynch. So you should come out with it

[lane0168]

VOTE: Sesq

@Sesq: Congrats on almost getting your immediate goal (of getting lynched) done. I am now forced to vote you to get the wagons even, and I think it's slightly more likely that you would get lynched over me.

[Redacted] I'll leave this till later.

You'll probably be the Lynch. So you should come out with it

Why am I probably the lynch? Are you thinking of switching your vote??

Yeah

[lane0168]

That would be scummy as hell, considering you were all for a Sesq lynch and not at all interested in mine earlier.

If by "all for" you mean "voting for" and by "not at all interested" you mean "not voting for" then yes, that would be correct.

Even if we pretend I hadn't expressed interest/suspicion about you, considering you're leading wagon, and 24 hours left in the day, what would be scummy about it?

[lane0168]

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

Who is doing B?

Couldn't tell you. Is there another possibility of why people aren't following you? If you think it's exclusively that people disagree with you, why is that suspect?

I think the possibility I'm currently seeing is you're arguing the point from emptiness just to try to beat it down. Bringing up counterpoints youc can't support is not an interesting or pro-town conversation.

I do think Nero is likely town, although it's a weak read at best. 1st, his jump to A50 reads as a genuine scumread. 2nd, his reads progression about a50 matches up with mine fairly nicely. 3rd, the posts in which he does content (particularly 299) feel like they're actually going somewhere.

So basically the town read is mostly predicated on the value of your A50 read?
That's a silly stance.

Regardless, I think that my A50 wagon is clearly superior to your Nero wagon.

It certainly is in size and support...for...some reason.

@Sesq

- hi, I think A50 is town and you're a Mime.
I'm stating Mjolnir intent on you.
Please claim.
I'm also willing to take non-presence as a scum claim, so keep that in mind.

What's my counterpoint? I simply asked what is suspect, and you keep not answering it. Twice in fact. Now you're just throwing shade for no reason.

[lane0168]

VOTE: almost50 L-1

Mimes will hammer themselves

[lane0168]

You think sesq is a mime but just stated hammer intent?

(I understand not worrying about the mimes until we actually lynch one, but still hammering someone you think is mime is weird

Considering I straight up said in the hammer intent post that I townread A50...

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

Who is doing B?

Couldn't tell you. Is there another possibility of why people aren't following you? If you think it's exclusively that people disagree with you, why is that suspect?

I think the possibility I'm currently seeing is you're arguing the point from emptiness just to try to beat it down. Bringing up counterpoints youc can't support is not an interesting or pro-town conversation.

I do think Nero is likely town, although it's a weak read at best. 1st, his jump to A50 reads as a genuine scumread. 2nd, his reads progression about a50 matches up with mine fairly nicely. 3rd, the posts in which he does content (particularly 299) feel like they're actually going somewhere.

So basically the town read is mostly predicated on the value of your A50 read?
That's a silly stance.

Regardless, I think that my A50 wagon is clearly superior to your Nero wagon.

It certainly is in size and support...for...some reason.

@Sesq

- hi, I think A50 is town and you're a Mime.
I'm stating Mjolnir intent on you.
Please claim.
I'm also willing to take non-presence as a scum claim, so keep that in mind.

What's my counterpoint? I simply asked what is suspect, and you keep not answering it. Twice in fact. Now you're just throwing shade for no reason.

You're literally quoting posts that contain me explaining why I think it's scummy.
To restate it for the third time for you - I think running up one person for 'Case A' while ignoring another person that 'Case A' exemplifies is very questionable for both parties involved.

What *did* happen was you tried multiple times to try to handwave my suspicion by making up cases that *YOU* didn't back up.

I'm very happy there's wagon interest in you now though, so I can do this;

Vote: Lane

Feel free to quote me avoiding answering your questions.
I'll wait

Here's a quote where you snowed avoided answering the "why" got a third it fourth time. Instead repeating that you think it's questionable. And still not saying why it's questionable that everyone was doing it.

What cases am I making up? This is pretty bad play from you

[lane0168]

Wow, let me try that again. "Here's a quote showing you avoiding answering the"why" for a third or fourth time

[lane0168]

I most certainly am noticing that. But what's not amazing to me, is people not jumping from a leading wagon to a non wagon for essentially the same case.

Yeah, but that they chose Sesq over you is a thing.

Here's me "avoiding explaining my issue" to Lane.

Yes that's another quote of you not telling anyone why that matters you can say facts all you want. I even agreed with them. But you do nothing to explain why it matters.

[lane0168]

Is is strange that ppl want to lynch scum over Lane? Also, you seem content sitting on a not scum wagon so your whine that we aren't lynching Lane seems odd.

It is not strange that people want ot lynch scum over Lane and I never said anything of the sort - what I did say was that Lane perfectly matches a large number of cases people are pushing, yet I'm the only one looking at him and *that* is suspect (which it is). Want to debate my actual statements instead of a straw man?

You haven't done mch to convince me you're not a scum slot - your predecessor was scummy and this has been very lacksidasical Nero play thus far. Are you claiming I should have a town read on your slot for some reason? Why?

Here I am explaining it to Nero when he asked.
Gosh, I am working so hard to avoid explaining my thought here.

Again, another perfect example of you not explaining why it matters or what exactly is suspect of it. You're just saying things to make it look like you're doing something

[lane0168]

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

Who is doing B?

Couldn't tell you. Is there another possibility of why people aren't following you? If you think it's exclusively that people disagree with you, why is that suspect?

Here's Lane hard dodging me questioning his defense of himself - for anyone not keeping track.

Lane then claimed that I'm not explaining my case and that he isn't trying to make a point against it?
Seriously now.

Holy hard misrepresent Batman... I'm not defending shit. In fact I've agreed with you SEVERAL times. Why are you lying? You aren't explaining your case further than it being the same as others... I certainly NEVER claimed you didn't say that. Again, are you lying?

[lane0168]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

Your reads are equally strong? I thought your mimeread on Lane was just based on interactions with Sesq. If that's true, that ought to be a weaker read since we don't have a Sesq flip.

I had them linked together as early as the top of page 2:

Sesq is good scumm but she hasn't yet done anything scummy (well, a far fetched idea is that she is scum with lane and they're distancing already).

I was "more to it" on page 8:

Anyway, having thought it over..

IF

lane flips Mime, Sesq would be his likely p. I don't trust their cross voting of each other and I could see that as coming from a Mime team (obviously to get half the job done) or from a Scum team (merely distancing).

So, I think I had a "semi-conviction" that the two are of the same alignment way before I decided Sesq was a Mime because of the way she fought (or rather didn't) against her wagon. They're like "interchangeable". If X is Mime then Y is Mime where X is either and Y is the other in no particular preference.

As much as I despise this train of thought and argument, look at the effort Lane is putting into defending himself.

This reads more like "Scum caught for the wrong reasons" flailing than "Oh yeah, I WANT to be lynched but need to disguise that". The frustration is real. Funny, but real. Therefore, Lane is probably not a mime. So vote him.

The hell are you talking about? I don't care about the votes. I'm arguing with Thor specifically who is being shady as f , if you cared to actually read what was going on.

[lane0168]

look at the effort Lane is putting into defending himself.

I don't see it. All I see him doing is arguing with Thor and ONLY Thor.

YES! thank you for paying attention

[lane0168]

If Lane is mimebuddies with sesq, why flail so hard? Sesq would be more likely to get lynched if the Lane wagon goes nowhere.

Either
Lane is mime but not with Sesq
Lane is mafia and wants that sweet sweet mime wine (in front of us)

I feel even better about this vote now.

You too? What flailing are are talking about?

[lane0168]

@fink... Can you give me a summary of my flailing?

@jingle... Same question

Because if you aren't reading what's bring written, you're doing us all a disservice

[lane0168]

@thor your asking what my vote does?

Shows who I think is scum

I get the impression that eragon had this long elaborate response typed up, then got concerned about how it would look, deleted it, and came up with this.

Disregard this

What were you thinking when you said it and why aren't you thinking it anymore?

I was thinking what I said when I said it, but doing an iso and seeing the whole picture, I really don't think eragon is scum

Eragon: Yeah I meant I still had that in an open tab from before you voted.

Lane: All these recent posts, the quoting a million things Thor says and still saying basically nothing while walling the shit out of the thread with quote boxes.

Right, so basically you're telling me you didn't take the time to read it and are disregarding it as flailing. Sweet. Thanks.

[lane0168]

I say, posting a bunch of nested quotes that have nothing to do with that post.

Regarding the quote above, Lane was scumreading Eragon because he interpreted that post in the way he did because he was scumreading Eragon, but when he stopped scumreading Eragon he didn't think his reason to scumread Eragon was valid.

It's circular and weird and I haven't been sure how to explain my issue with it but I've been meaning to get to it.

I thought I explained this. I was catching up on mobile. I noted something that was off to me by itself. But doing the iso gave me no reason to believe eragon was scum.

[lane0168]

Lane, you gonna self hammer and give A50 a heart attack?

Yes

VOTE: lane

[lane0168]

Thor and a50 though. You heard it here first.

[lane0168]

And ffs actually look at mine and Thor's exchange before you just call it flailing. I asked him why he thinks something. And he keeps just telling me what he thinks. But nothing about why. Because is meaningless and doesn't hold any water. Maybe if he makes me look like cap for no reason, he can cover it up