NY 213 - Game Over!

[Krazy]

So... a gamma lynch confirms 2 players, both of which are off the texcat wagon?

I'm not saying that's what we do, just making sure I understand the mechanics here

[Krazy]

Gamma wouldn't flip neighbor, friendly neighbor is different than neighborizer.

[Krazy]

If Gamma flipped green (just town, not neighbor), then wavemode and tchill are both conftown, assuming Gamma confirms the pm before lynch.

I am not Krazy, this is the mechanic I believe.

[Krazy]

I mean, I am Krazy

OK stop that

[Krazy]

Because Tchill is universal backup and joined the neighborhood with him from performer's old role

Try to keep up KK lol I know this is confusing tho

[Krazy]

Tchill claims Universalbackup who joined the neighborhood from Performer's role.

Wave claims 2-shot Friendly Neighbor IN A NEIGHBORHOOD which used to include Performer.

Wave says he sent a PM to Tchill confirming his role (n1?)

And then a PM to Gamma confirming his role (n2?)

In this sense, Gamma being TOWN confirms both wave and Tchill.

[Krazy]

Right, how does Wheme flip universal backup when Performer had died?

Wait... uhhh.... does that... confirm... Tchill... as scum.......?

Uhghghufghghga

Is Universal Backup confirmed to only backup roles on YOUR SIDE or does it go for either side? If it's either side, then what happens if a scum team has two universal backs?

If Tchill got Performer's role, then that would mechanically explain why Wheme flipped Universal Backup when a power role had already died. If Universal Backups go to the first PR that dies on either side. I guess?

I might just really be not used to these mechanics tho.

[Krazy]

Sorry I only read the first text block, didn't see the Normal Guidelines below

A Universal Backup can be of any alignment, but it should only activate upon the first death of a power role

of their own alignment.

Ok good

[Krazy]

So a green gamma flip at any point gives us a pair of masons.

Vote GR

[Krazy]

So a green gamma flip at any point gives us a pair of masons.

No.... ? Just a confirmation of getting a mod PM and a ok that the paraphrasing sounds good.

That doesn't remove the possibility of a Gamma+Wave+Tchill three-man team. I mean, I know that's very unlikely, since there's a good chance we just straight up policy Gamma to have masons if this starts going down in numbers. But it does also mean that if Tchill gets nightkilled it confirms Wave (even if Gamma is scum), and if Wave gets nightkilled it confirms Tchill. Scum basically have to start dealing with that, so we almost certainly have no need to policy Gamma today.

(We can still lynch Gamma, though, if we decide he bussed yesterday)

GR still seems like a solid lynch for today.

[Krazy]

GR's self-vote looks like scum that saw the best mislynch today claiming mason to me.

[Krazy]

As I said, it's pretty unlikely.

[Krazy]

Mylo has clearly read the last few pages.

[Krazy]

Tchill, why did ETL not get Ausuka to crumb day 2? No one of the three thought of it?

[Krazy]

I just kind of don't get why Ausuka would not confirm two confirmed players. Like, isn't that the whole point of the IC in this setup? I'm not really questioning your play here, I'm trying to reconcile Ausuka's play to the described events. It's a lot to take in dude.

This is probably all true, because town misplaying can happen and this seems way too risky to be a scum play, it's just... trying to make sense of what I'm looking at lol

Basically if Ausuka HAD crumbed, then holy shit, free masons without the need for a Gamma flip. Seems like a pretty big oversight on her part really.

[Krazy]

Guys, I have some bad news.

I have not made progress on my time machine

[Krazy]

I locktowned GR. So he's probably a fine lynch.

?

Didn't you do this same thing with your reads list?

I think the joke is self-evident if you think back to how you felt lol

[Krazy]

GR, do you think JJD's balls are actually so big that him doing crazy ass bullshit is actually NAI?

[Krazy]

He calls for a second claim immediately after someone has claimed
He refuses to hammer a null with an hour on timer

Those are the first two that spring to mind. Maybe the second doesn't strike you... since I mean... well you know

[Krazy]

Somehow this is not the Sherlock vs. Moriarty exchange I have been dreaming about for weeks.

idk, why did you flip out over texcat getting run up maybe? Like how does anything that happened yesterday make sense from town!GR pov?

[Krazy]

Ank started reading the words.

How do you get town over scum for KK?

I'm not disagreeing strongly, I just have a hard time moving KK out of null in either direction.

[Krazy]

You could be right. A large part of my confidence in JJD going into today had to deal with my confidence in Tchill being scum. I had no need to re-evaluate my TR of JJD because I had a full scum team just sitting there: Tchill, GR, and then either wave, KK, or deepscum.

JJD being scum would fit with Dunn being always fucking right about everything though. And texcat was also... weird? toward JJD, which I mostly attributed to texcat being scum. But if texcat literally never bussed anyone, then JJD flips scum before GR. Guess it depends on whether you think texcat literally played on the assumption she never, ever gets flipped.

But it also has to involve what you prioritize more, townslips or scumslips. I feel like JJD has been townslipping all over this game, that he's not posting now mostly because of real life but probably also because of tilt over being wrong on texcat. You do realize that not posting after being THAT WRONG is literally NAI right? Particularly for a powergamer like JJD.

My problem with JJD being town at this point has a lot more to do with numbers. With wave and Tchill now both likely conftown, I really don't have a lot of room for scumteam that doesn't include JJD. So, numbers suggest at this point that I can easily be wrong in my read. But I still think JJD flips town before GR does. And I still think GR flips scum before JJD does.

But... at this point, I honestly wouldn't put money on JJD flipping one way or the other. Tchill's roleclaim has rocked my read of the gamestate pretty hard.

[Krazy]

I like that you've started taking stances on players based on reads of their play rather than pure NKA and VCA. I'm not sure what you were doing with 6754 tho. Did you need to remind us of your WIFOM about being a NK?

[Krazy]

I like what you're doing. But your argument is that GR is town because of her AtE. Look at how close we are to a solve here. The biggest nulls and leanscums just flipped conftown. The scum powergamer probably gets flipped today or tomorrow, or maybe even two scum lynches in a row if it's JJD+GR. And you think scum doesn't just throw in the towel here? Like, they're looking at this race, and they don't see a win here. GR's self-vote is highly indicative of scum that knows they have lost.

[Krazy]

I like it when people who are town bother to read the game rather than pretending they can solve it purely through an iso of Ircher.

[Krazy]

K guess that came off as douchey but it was kinda meant to be a joke. Looking at it now I can see it doesn't read that way tho. I wasn't trying to downplay you.

I feel like you're feeling defensive but you did literally just say you were confident in your reads after saying GR was likely town for reasons that don't make sense to me. "Good analysis but I disagree with some of your conclusions" --> "I like what you're doing. But..."

[Krazy]

I get it now.

What a shitty setup w/ masons, IC, Neigborizer...

why play mafia when you can just modconfirm half the town?

Ooh... JJD probably is scum.

Even as probably modconfirmed town, you still look at a post and see scum and I look at a post and see town.

JJD: "I can get lynched and the game is still almost certainly won. Boring."

Town: Oh yeah, this is scum.

GR: "Self-vote AtE, OMGUS, V/LA."

Town: Oh yeah this is town.

Spoiler:

[Krazy]

Creature what are your thoughts on KK atm?

[Krazy]

In his wheme vote post hes basically saying that pp is likely town because ram's self vote was possibly town indicative. If I understand it. Honestly I have reread that post more than any other in this game trying to decide if its alignment indicative and I honestly still don't know.

Does the wheme vote look like it could be a bus to you?

[Krazy]

Tchill if JJD flips green and you get shot, who do you think we should lynch tomorrow?

[Krazy]

Looks like everyone has decided JJD is going down and that I should probably stop defending him because even he thinks it's suspicious.

Guess I should give up then.

LOL FUCK THAT

TIME TO DOUBLE DOWN

JarJarDrinks

Spoiler:

Justice ain't gonna dispense itself.

Abilities

Combat Roll -- Dodge Away from the Game when Scum is at L-1
Deadeye -- Demand claims from multiple people simultaneously
Flashbang -- Blinds himself from Golden Rob sheeping his votes half the game

Characteristic -- Full-blown COWBOY Town Syndrome:

Claiming mason. Legit claiming mason.

I want the partner claim or I'm considering this fake.

Can we gat a vote and/or intent on TBG so they can claim already? 2 days left.

Honestly I'd love it is SS and TBG would just both go ahead and claim at this point.

VT

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

Claim

I really cant decide if I'd rather a no lynch or join the wagon w/ all the scummy people in the game on it.

hint

i'm strongly against nolycnhes

I'm strongly against no-lynches too.

But

NOT AN OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT
TehBrawlGuy(4) ~ Kublai Khan(23), Texcat(12), Myloninja13(18), Wavemode(54)
JarJarDrinks() ~
Scioness Sajj(4) ~ Golden Robster(62), JarJarDrinks(66), Hopkirk(28) Tchill13(130),
Texcat (L-1) ~ Krazy(64), Gamma Emerald, Vaxkiller(19) Scioness Sajj(29), TehBrawlGuy(67), Creature(63), Skygazer(10), Ankamius(85),

I cannot join that wagon.

Highlights:

Good point

VOTE: WhemeStar

Summary:
JJD remains town because JJD has been probable town since 2580.
If JJD is scum, he is a very greedy and reckless scum player. While possible for a scum powergamer, I find it unlikely.
JJD plays sub-optimally as town in such a way that it leads to more town information. The push for multiple claims in quick succession is meant to foster the town processing more information more quickly. In principle it is not unlike Creature playing musical chairs.
JJD's reactions today look like town trying to make sense of a confusing game state and not necessarily interested in pushing on the player that has spent the whole game townblocking herself to him.

Additional thoughts (not from quotes above):
JJD has been aggressively wrong in reads for mislynches, like in his case on Dunn. I feel like this is town-indicative.

Golden Robster

Spoiler:

Setup Quotes:

"The True Struggle is for the Superiority of Ideas"

Abilities:

Shadow Shift -- can vanish from the game when scum is put to L-1
Biotic Orb -- Golden Robster can Heal or Destroy her teammates. The question is... who are her teammates?

If scum, these were the scum-tells:

replace out is NAI

claiming VT is scummy

UNVOTE: Wheme

VOTE: whemestar

in my head right now

wheme has a better chance of flipping red since claim is fake

but lynching PP is the better play here on the off-chance it isn't

it just depends on what you believe

Highlights:

VOTE: Whemestar

Summary:
I feel like for GR there is little evidence she is town because she is not town.
I feel like GR has been largely passive, and maintained a strategy this game of trying to townblock herself with JJD.

Other thoughts (not from quotes here):
I encourage you to look not just at Wheme and Texcat, but at how GR vs JJD pursued the case on Dunn.
JJD pushed very hard on Dunn because he believed he was likely to be scum and wanted credit for the lynch.
GR's push was significantly lighter, which seems more like someone interested in looking good than in someone pursuing a lead. GR on Dunn was scum posturing while setting up a mislynch.

Annotated Associations with Texcat

Spoiler:

But what about Myloninja? He doesn't get a tr?

Probably just a passing comment and not her full reads; texcat, why are you voting osuka?

Why are you voting Osuka? I had an explanation in my vote post.

A defensive question, but no pushback.

ausuka outing as IC makes it super clear that there could be other power roles in the hood which makes them nk worthy from scum pov

why lynch them at our own cost?

What makes you think scum will kill in the hood? They certainly wouldn't want to if there is scum in the hood, because it would narrow the pool and expose the scum. Even if there is no scum in the hood, the paranoia about it distracts town enough that I would never kill there as scum.

The risk of outing prs outside the hood, is substantial. Ausuka and I are pretty determined about wave.

I agree with Performer here. There

might

be PRs in the hood. But there are positively PRs outside the hood. We've already outed a claim (fake or not, at L-11) from Vax. Do we want to continue down that path?

ArcAngel9, Andriod18, Myloninja13

Hey guys. The above 3 players each have < 15 posts total and if u ISO them, there is zero content in those few post.


And guess how many people are voting for them? Not a single one. Can we stop telling scum that if they want to win all they have to do is lurk?


I recomend everyone pick one.


VOTE: Andriod18

scummiest of the 3 IMO

I agree with lynching/pressuring lurkers. Wavemode was on that list before the wagon on him. He's only started posting in the last couple of days. I disagree that we have time to start a new wagon on another lurker. But btw out of that group, ArcAngel9 would be my vote. She came in, dropped a vote on Performer, and left without saying anything. But it makes me more confident that out of the Wave v Performer wagons, Wave is the better one.

This is a surprisingly fluffy post for texcat who did not do a lot of fluff, and it is a good sign I think that there is scum between GR and JJD. With GR there is nightkill speculation, which is a great way to say nothing in a large normal. You know, this is a little thing, but texcat also goes "you" to GR, but talks about performer to the crowd. Then the JJD response is all "I agree" or "I disagree." Not "you're right" or "you're wrong." It's kinda like texcat feels just a bit chattier/cool with GR.

JarJar, Your reads list omitted Golden Robster, Hopkirk, Gamma, and Frozen Angel. Why did you omit those 4?

A list of FOUR. NO ONE DOES A LIST OF FOUR. LOOK AT IT. I mean I know it's the names omitted, but this post bothers me. I feel like the order of names was crafted to maximize the ability of this post to say nothing.

Thanks.

This is actually one of the posts that made me most confident in Texcat scum. This reaction seems fake, and it is at JJD. I feel like JJD is trying to softpush JJD and then agree with his reasoning. The question is, does Texcat do that to buddy, or to give herself permission to sheep her scumbuddy? Thinking about it postflip and post-tchill claim I've sort of reconsidered. Earlier this game I thought texcat was trying to kinda buddy JJD. But it also seems like texcat can't remember her stance toward JJD. Still, on the whole, I'd say you see this kind of interaction more often from Scum+Town rather than from Scum+Scum.

Man I want jar jar lynched but VOTE: Vax

Ugh. So why not vote JarJar?

Considering texcat isn't voting JarJar this is a weird post.

Now that we have the Vax vig situation sorted out, it seems like A50 was the likely scum kill. I went back to look at A50 to see if there were any clues there. He had an early strong scum read on Edo, but I'm not sure it carried over to Gamma. Towards the end of the day, it looked like he wasn't reading because he voted Ausuka after the IC announcement. He voted Android, and he was pushing people to vote either Performer or Android, but at the very end of day he started thinking that they were both town and that scum had manipulated us into 2 town wagons. Ugh. It still looks like a vig kill.

it's not a vig kill

what do you think of a50 kill after reading his ISO?

can you talk to me about why you think scum would nk a50?

I thought I just did. Am I being that unclear? The simplest explanation for the kill is that scum did it. That's why I said he "was the likely scum kill". As for why, I didn't see any apparent reason (though I am always bad at picking out breadcrumbs), hence it still looked like a vig kill to me.

What do you think???

"What do you think???" to GR... why does Texcat use three quotation marks here. She doesn't do that anywhere else. It feels like she wants to play up her questioning of GR while giving her no pushback whatsoever.

Just because Vax escaped the lynch once by claiming vig, does not mean this isn't scum.

he retracted and had some lines that genuinly felt like it came from town

do you think vax is a super capable scum player?

Vax? I don't know how capable he is. I do know that request for a claim was scummy, whatever his few lines were that you thought were town.

And I'd assume that there'd be at least a scum off the wagon and another near the end of it too.

nice I agree

mylon gets a pass d3

seriously? off of such a vanilla copypasta response? no thanks

I mean I agree with the reasoning so what's the problem?

giving a free pass to mylo because I don't SR him

do you SR mylo?

You mean that was not sarcasm? Some scum were on the wagon, and some scum were off the wagon. It's hard to disagree with that, but you give him a pass? You don't scum read him. Does that mean you're town reading him?

expected you to have obvtowned already

he obvtowned when he fakeclaimed vig.

This is sarcasm, right?

In the response to JJD, it feels like she is trying to discourage a town player who has townread a potential mislynch target. In the response to GR, it feels like she wants to ask questions without doing anything else. What are your townreads, what are your scumreads. Very neutral questions that indicate nothing about how texcat feels about GR.

Summary Comments:
There is way too much content here considering how little content there is from texcat overall. I feel like it is unlikely so much of texcat's iso would be directed exclusively at two of her scumbuddies. This is why I think it's important to get today's lynch correctly. I think it is unlikely both are scum, even if it is possible.

Compare the amount of interaction here to that with KK. (Who I'm starting to warm on the idea of being a buddy).

Annotated Associations with Whemestar

Spoiler:

Lol @ golden

creature aint never gettin lynched

VOTE: jar jar

Wheme seems to think Jar Jar is a good push but GR isn't. Does Wheme push a scumbuddy on day 2 with no red flips? I don't really think so personally.

ANSWER MINE FIRST

yes

if you really wanted to actually know you could of just checked my game history instead of being sarcastic

now answer my questions

Scum creature - never posts

Town creature - posts

Again, both Texcat and Whemestar answer read questions for GR with no other pushback. It's responses without meaningful interaction or pushing. Fluff.

There's no reason why we have to go after flavor leaf today

Sure there is. If he's scum, we force one of his buddies to commit to a mason claim today. They may be more hesitant to do it today because if one of them gets lynched/vigged/tracked/etc... then it leads right to the other player.

As we get closer to lylo, a scum buddy would be more likely to fakeclaim knowing that they only need 1 or 2 mislynches to win the game.

Forcing people to commit early means they are more likely to get caught. The more time that goes by, the easier it is for them to tell a lie to fit their narrative.

if he were lying we'd figure it out eventually and he wouldn't get away

Terrible logic. I'm tired of explaining basic mafia principles to people.

The town is on a clock in mafia. They only have X amount of mislynches before they lose. Scum just needs to stall long enough to run out that clock. Everytime town mislynches they move closer to that clock running out.

So who cares is we "eventually" will figure it out? Scum doesnt need all their members to survive to endgame in order to win.


THERE IS ZERO BENEFIT TO NOT FORCING THE MASON CLAIM TODAY.

Holy this is obj town

I can see why people would take this as a scumbuddy backing off, but to me it seems more like a scum that has decided his mislynch target is too much work.

Ok so I’m caught up from my last catch up but my last catchup wasn’t fully caught up

Should I read those pages cause apparently everyone unvoted golden rob in those pages

if you're not invested into this game why did you join in the first place?

seem to have feelings about wagon on you except calling it garbo

Mod asked me to

Kinda more fluff post. Notice for everyone defending him it's "town town town" and shit like that, like he's worried he's going down and he wants to pollute the waters.

wheme has posted on site within the last half hour.

Lol

This does not read to me like S+S.

Omg he still hasn't claimed. Just hammer.

I’ve already gave my reasons

Why are you so in a rush

This also doesn't read like S+S.

JarJar is prob scum

Notice how much SHIT Wheme says about JJD one way or the other, while really not commenting on Rob at all at this point. Just a few fluff posts earlier. Like he doesn't know how to interact with that slot.

Townreads - Creature, Dunn, golden robster, scioness sajj, Kublai (?)
Kublai weakest one because I’m not sure why I townreads him he just pings me that way

Scumreads- tehbrawlgiy, gamma, PP, lalendra

This post also lowkey points to KK being scum, but why the fuck is GR town if the wagon on him is garbo? Why no pushback?

Summary Comments:
Wheme has far too many interactions with JJD for JJD to be a likely scumbuddy. The interactions generally feel like SvT.

Wheme has fluff posts with GR and incoherent reactions to GR. Feels more like S+S to me.

Overall Summary:

Based on texcat iso, I find it most likely that there is only one scum between GR + JJD.
Based on isos of Texcat, Wheme, JJD, and GR, I feel like there is a lot more evidence that GR is scum than JJD.
I feel like JJD looks like town based on his iso.
Therefore I feel like GR is the best lynch for today.
Thank you for your time.

[Krazy]

How have I been passive and why does townblocking with JJD make me scum?

phone posting right now since no access to com

Good questions. But if you are town then there were 0 scum off the wagon which sounds like bs to me.

Why wouldn't you hard defend? You yourself explained how you were in a position of power. In any case "why would scum hard defend" is wifom. What makes no sense is why you spent half the dayphase questioning and throwing shade at texcat but then suddenly hard defended. I think the hard defense on its own is NAI but the incoherence of your position on tex is scummy. I also think it was weird that for as hard as your defense was you never said tex was town. Like you look at tbg or ank on dunn and theyre like dont lynch this its town. So your hard defense wasnt a hard defense even. It was scummy misdirection and inconsistent with your positions this game.

[Krazy]

As much fun as day 5 was we do not have to wait for the last 24 hours KK.

[Krazy]

Rob I think you already indirectly claimed but you probably should hardclaim. You're still L-2 and we're under 48 hours.

[Krazy]

vanilla

still don’t have com access and I’m not typing large paragraphs on phone because effort

basically repeating what I’ve said earlier

lynch JJD then KK and consolidate under Anka since she’s my strongest TR

Pretty sure GR's play here is to discredit Ank as much as she can before she goes down.

Like, no one else looked at this and saw GR basically trying to pull all the same shit Wheme did when he was going down? Wheme was "town town town" on everyone he wanted mislynched on future days.

Look at GR over this day. She wants to sheep anyone on any wagon. She is trying to muddy the waters as much as possible.

This is scum!GR fam. Let's seal the deal here.

[Krazy]

I wish someone would talk to me when I’m “ caught up” and not 20000 pages behind

Read on Creature?

Town town townn

Holy some1 has a brain

(this is @TBG)

JarJar is prob scum

Can someone explain gammas vote

As soon as Wheme was put up he basically started spewing a bunch of bullshit to make it harder to get associative tells out of his slot. GR is basically doing the same thing today, it's just lasted longer and GR is slightly better at it.

[Krazy]

For reference, here are some of the ways GR had been approaching the game at different points:

D5 reads

Conf town

: Hopkirk

Town

: KK, JJD,

Leaning Town

: Tchill, Krazy

Semi-Leaning Town

: Texcat (dead), Wavemode, Mylo
Null/Undecided: Vax

Semi-Leaning Scum

: Creature, Gamma, Skygazer, Anka

Leaning Scum

: SS (dead), TBG

Scum

:

flip these reads

Conf town

: Hopkirk

Town

:

Leaning Town

: SS (dead), TBG

Semi-leaning town

: Creature, Gamma, Skygazer, Anka

Null/undecided

: Vax

Semi-leaning scum

: Wavemode, Mylo

Leaning scum

: Tchill, Krazy

Scum

: KK, JJD

Here are some things GR has said today that struck me as out of character:

VOTE: tchill

@krazy you're analysis is fine

; I agree that we should be focusing on these three players including myself and KK here

it makes the most logical sense to look at the players who hard-defended texcat (including me)

@ankamius

just to add on that

mylo should also be town by interactions with texcat

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

good stuff anka sheeping this

skygazer!scum is still possible

with gamma town

and

I agree with wavemode here

; if gamma was scum then it would make more sense to NK wavemode instead of leaving him alive and risk letting more players know he's conf!town

pedit: I know anka and I agree with that; if it gets to that stage then town should be re-evaluating everybody including townblock

Confirmed Town - [Hopkirk, Wavemode, Tchill]

Town Block - [Ankamius, Mylo, TBG]

Probably not mafia - [Creature, Krazy, Gamma]
Potential lynches - [Skygazer, Vaxkiller, KK, JJD]

GR has spent pretty much all of today emphatically agreeing with people she has never agreed with before. She's throwing out townreads she has never supported before and sheeping votes on people who only barely trusted before. Before today Ank was a semi-lean scum and now she's agreeing with everything you're saying. I've spent the entire game accusing her of being scum and as soon as I vote tchill she sheeps my vote.

As nice as it is to have someone say they agree with your reasoning, GR is basically making the priority today totally fucking up the associative reads of her slot, not actually scumhunting.

[Krazy]

Wait guys, I found some shocking evidence that Gamma is actually town!

viewtopic.php?p=10356451#p10356451

[Krazy]

KK you sitting this one out on Vax?

[Krazy]

Here's where I am at the end of this dayphase. To be clear, the greens aren't really towncases (wave should ignore everything above JJD if he wants to avoid the 'signal to noise ratio'), they're just my current feelings. There's some observations for pink and below. JJD and GR are about the same here as in my post earlier. Mostly I wanted to share because I had fun putting it together

TEXCAT -- KIA

Spoiler:

Special Abilities:
Grappling Hook: Can disappear from the game whenever there's a wagon she doesn't like.
Widow's Kiss: Throws obvtown at L-1 with no explanation.

Was obvscum after:

The fact that Wheme, Lalendra, and Mylo are on PP also points towards PP town. They’re either scum joining on, or town that is being used a scum sheep votes for scum.

Wheme likely has the worst ISO in this game, to be honest. We had Wave, who I think is town, alongside the masons and Penguin being the only ones on the Wheme wagon initially when PP was picking up steam.

Have you looked at Mylo's ISO? Have you looked at ArcAngel's ISO (though it has improved somewhat with BrawlGuy's replace in)?

After yesterday I feel okay with my vote on Wheme.

I have no idea how Texcat could make that post asking about extension (not to say it looked like giving an extension would suggest answer) and then asks about Mylo.

I have this sneaking suspicion that scum is controlling this game. Perhaps it's just my bad gut. The one advantage that town has over scum is numbers. And we give up that advantage when so many players are not playing.

Yesterday when we started consolidating wagons, it looked like it was going to be either Performer or Wavemode. And then it actually ended up being Performer and Android. And today, it looked like it was going to be Penguin and Robster, but now it's looking like Penguin and Wheme. Based on this alone, I'd say Wavemode and Robster are likely scum.

HIGHLIGHT:

It came from my very scummy read of TBG's predecessor, ArcAngel.

I'm pretty sure scum is going to have to kill Ausuka before endgame.

Conftown -- Krazy POV

Krazy

Spoiler:

Special abilities:
RAGE CAPS -- the ability to knock back bullshit during a CFD[/quote]

Note: Obviously not conftown for anyone else, since they didn't get my role PM.

Hopkirk

Spoiler:

Catchphrase:

"Cheers, love! The cavalry's here!"

Characteristics:
You know he's town because the character is in all the promotional material for the game.

Likely Conftown (Conditional on single flip)

Tchill13

Spoiler:

Hero Selected:

It's a perfect day for some mayhem!

Abilities:
Total Mayhem: Can be hilariously self-destructive
Frag Launcher: Does incredible damage to nearby targets, but struggles to hit snipers like Texcat

Characteristics:
Seems like scum the entire game until PLOT TWIST he was just a confused good guy the entire time.

Note: YES, I CHOSE THE GIFS BEFORE TCHILL WAS CONFTOWN. SO JUNKRAT AND ROADHOG AREN'T ON THE SAME TEAM NOW. DEAL WITH IT.

Wavemode

Spoiler:

Build 'em up, break 'em down.

Abilities:

Armor Pack -- Can keep fellow heroes like Tchill from getting mislynched. Also works on himself.
Build Turret -- Spends day 1 building his turret while ignoring the thread.

Highlights:

VOTE: WhemeStar

rob also authored post 6666 which means he is Satan

Sky + Gamma + Vax townreads

That's tragic

unless they're all town

in which case it's *MAGIC*

Close to Locktown

TehBrawlGuy

Spoiler:

Catchphrase:

Quit screwing around and get ready to move!

Abilities:
Sprint -- Has the ability to start CFDs to get into close range of sniper scum.
Biotic Field -- Manages to avoid mislynches on his own which is good because apparently Winston's shields are garbage.

Characteristics:
Everyone thinks he's scum for half the game because he has a red visor, and red is always bad.
Everyone complains about his playstyle because they think it comes from Call of Duty.
Should probably be locktown but no one trusts old people.

The reason every apparently decided he's scum:

oh fuck it's closer than I thought

VOTE: wheme

still open to counterwagons but this is a more useful vote than wave atm

Highlight:

eh

VOTE: tex

it's just more likely to me

i can some back to sajj if we need my vote to secure lynch

Likely Town -- Not in any particular order

Creature

Spoiler:

Don't anger the hamster.

Abilities:
Roll -- Creature transforms into a ball, moving from vote to vote and disrupting wagon positioning
Grappling Claw -- If Creature posts more than the average player in the game, the entire town will think he's obvtown

Highlights:

VOTE: WhemeStar

Oh whatever

VOTE: texcat

back to L-1

Myloninja AKA Hiloninja AKA MYLON

Spoiler:

Hi I'm still here!

Hi guys.

Hi sorry I'm still here lol.

Hi I'm here sorry

Hi I'm here sorry

***THOSE LAST TWO ARE TWO SEPARATE POSTS***

Abilities:
Wall Climb: Myloninja has the ability to exit the thread at random, but can reappear at critical times
Storm Bow: Myloninja can reach any slot with his votes, making him useful for taking out enemy snipers

Highlights:

just intent so he claims instead of playing around

I mean, from what I've seen I'm not sure he'd claim regardless but sure lol.

Intent to Hammer Wheme

Vote him then to ensure we got this hammered

Okay!

VOTE: texcat

PLAY OF THE GAME:

Hi Myloninja

I'm totally seeing you online

Yo, I'm here!

Ankamius

Spoiler:

The True Enemy of Humanity is Disorder

Abilities:
Energy Ball -- Able to shape Night Kill Analysis into balls of pure energy


Highlights:

VOTE: texcat

Doesn't matter, I'm not convinced by any of what's going on anymore

Skygazer

Spoiler:

Never stop fighting for what you believe in.

Abilities:
Biotic Rifle -- Skygazer has long range with her votes allowing her to reach enemy snipers
Nano Boost -- Skygazer's incredible sheeping allows her to give wagons the power they need to lynch scum
Sleep Dart -- Skygazer has the ability to lurk through the game except when she's drunkposting

Highlights:

VOTE: texcat

that sajj reads list was town

still TRing TBG

Notes: I think wave's TC here on Dave is much more convincing than wave's TC on Gamma's slot.

Complicated and Conditional Townread

JarJarDrinks

Spoiler:

Justice ain't gonna dispense itself.

Abilities

Combat Roll -- Dodge Away from the Game when Scum is at L-1
Deadeye -- Demand claims from multiple people simultaneously
Flashbang -- Blinds himself from Golden Rob sheeping his votes half the game

Characteristic -- Full-blown COWBOY Town Syndrome:

Claiming mason. Legit claiming mason.

I want the partner claim or I'm considering this fake.

Can we gat a vote and/or intent on TBG so they can claim already? 2 days left.

Honestly I'd love it is SS and TBG would just both go ahead and claim at this point.

VT

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

Claim

I really cant decide if I'd rather a no lynch or join the wagon w/ all the scummy people in the game on it.

hint

i'm strongly against nolycnhes

I'm strongly against no-lynches too.

But

NOT AN OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT
TehBrawlGuy(4) ~ Kublai Khan(23), Texcat(12), Myloninja13(18), Wavemode(54)
JarJarDrinks() ~
Scioness Sajj(4) ~ Golden Robster(62), JarJarDrinks(66), Hopkirk(28) Tchill13(130),
Texcat (L-1) ~ Krazy(64), Gamma Emerald, Vaxkiller(19) Scioness Sajj(29), TehBrawlGuy(67), Creature(63), Skygazer(10), Ankamius(85),

I cannot join that wagon.

Highlights:

Good point

VOTE: WhemeStar

Null

Vaxkiller

Spoiler:

Come on, let's bring it together!

Abilities:
Wall ride: Vaxkiller can appear or disappear from the thread at random
Sound Barrier: Make it hard to get a wagon on Vax by never saying anything over two sentences long

Highlights:

VOTE: wheme

VOTE: texcat

I'll participate in this compromise I guess.

Leanscum

Kublai Khan

Spoiler:

Only through conflict do we evolve

Possible Scumtells:

Huh. Second time Ausuka is mentioning a traitor.

Yep, and I've explained why I believe there is a traitor. Do you actually scumread me for this?

If you were a traitor and wanted to flag to your team who you are, then bringing up the possibility of a traitor apropos of nothing is a pretty good beacon.

If that's true then dueling on it persistently is another way of signaling it to your team.

*low whistle*

Not bad.
- Unprompted chainsaw defending
- "No, you!"
- Lying ("persistently")

I was voting your for the stupid BS stuff you were doing earlier, you could have ridden that out. But now you are super number 1 scum with a bullet.

<--Buzzwords

I’m probably a super strong PR this game and lurking for that reason.

he's softclaiming a strong PR

if he's vt, then he's acting as a decent nk bait

if he's actually pr, then he's painting a big target on himself (unlikely)

if he's scum then he's bringing unneeded attention to himself by acting scummy and saying he'll be conftown

Fine. I can think of a few exceptions to this but they feel a little far-off at the moment.

UNVOTE:

He doesn't re-vote for 26 hours.

Spent the last 3 hours sorting through isos and re-skimming Day 2. Here's where I'm currently standing.

Town pile
Ausuka
Hopkirk
Andriod19
Dunnstral
Golden Robster
texcat
PenguinPower
JarJarDrinks

Weaktown
Gamma Emerald
EspeciallyTheLies
Lalendra
Frozen Angel
Pine

Eh... pile
Scioness Sajj
ArcAngel9
Creature (Apparently has a famous meta where he's active as town and lurks as scum. He lurks. But replaces out, which someone (WhemeStar?) sold as being town, but is it?)
WhemeStar

Scum pile
Flavor Leaf
Vaxkiller
Myloninja13
Wavemode


I'm in the group that says that Flavor Leaf's mason buddy needs to claim. On the re-read it just feels like his town & scum read on me & JarJarDrinks keeps flipping depending on whoever is attacking him. There is something manipulative in his play and he's trying to hide it with smoke and mirrors. Like his explanation of his reaction to Golden Robster is all WIFOM. He's basically arguing that there's no excuse for scum to play/react badly. Well of course not. But we catch scum when they do play/react badly. Except when we get placated by WIFOM reasoning.

If his partner is in my town or weaktown list, then I'm happy with three solid town reads to help with POE.

Really dislike that he puts texcat in town pile which seems at odds with his questions earlier. Don't get why GR is townpile, don't get why Pine is weaktown, don't get why Gamma is weak town, kinda have a hard time following the logic in this list. Also not in love with the metoo to Mason buddy claim.

I am cool with being the Lynch, I am nothing special on this side.

I found this from a towngame.

Dude...

You were *in* that towngame. You let me get all tunneled in and then you deflate it with meta you were quasi-aware of.

VOTE: WhemeStar

The main problem I have with this is that it seems so disconnected from why Wheme is scum. It's a convoluted reason to vote for Wheme.

If I really intended to preserve WhemeStar there I would've done PP instead saying it's better to mislynch a VT than doc.

WIFOM.

"Buzzwords are scumtells" -- Taly

Oh yay, Tchill is town.

So is Creature.

What the fuck.

Do people not actually read Creature posts?

Someone needs to link me to a scum-Creature game. All game people have been saying his scum game is obvious. And if it's somehow more obvious than this game, I have to see this for myself.

Why does he not want to find his own example? It's not hard to find player games... Just seems odd to complain about a TR if you're not casing the person, although there are conftown that have done this too.

I re-read from 235 to 254.

Town:
Hopkirk
TehBrawlGuy
Myloninja13
Krazy
Skygazer
Ankamius
Golden Robster

Creature:
Creature

Not town:
Wavemode
Tchill13
JarJarDrinks
Gamma Emerald
Vaxkiller

If it weren't for Ankamius' spontaneous decision to announce her candidacy for town leader, she's probably be on the scum-side after that texcat lynch.

VOTE: vaxkiller

I still don't get why GR is town.

Highlights:

I am cool with being the Lynch, I am nothing special on this side.

I found this from a towngame.

Dude...

You were *in* that towngame. You let me get all tunneled in and then you deflate it with meta you were quasi-aware of.

VOTE: WhemeStar

Scumread

Gamma Emerald

Spoiler:

I'm a one man apocalypse

Abilities:
Take a Breather -- Able to recover from tactical nukes
Whole Hog -- Able to knock busses into his teammates
Scrap Gun -- Take down attack helicopters

If scum, here were some tells:

UNVOTE:
honestly the behavior after this slot claimed from a couple people makes me think it's town
is there any other wagon to performer (besides android)? I'll vote performer if it's literally the ONLY option, but if anything else is there I'll probably vote there.

[cut up this wall of text]
VOTE: Kublai Khan
I think this is a good case, and think that the points brought up are valid points.

(this is the next vote, a full REAL LIFE week later)

Honestly I'm more in the mood to vote GoldRob out of those two, PP hasn't been towny per se but GR has been scummy
VOTE: Golden Robster

GR's 2848 for context: viewtopic.php?p=10310730#p10310730
Also page 115: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76567&start=2850

UNVOTE: Actually maybe Rob has a point

VOTE: PenguinPower
For anyone thinking claiming VT makes the person less likely scum I personally think that's a crock of shit. If A50 were still here he'd back me up on VT claiming not being clearing.

Next vote is on PP about a day later.

UNVOTE:
Lalendra explained the issues I had and she seems genuine rn

VOTE: myloninja
honestly all the actual content I've seen from him has been terrible
I'm done beating around the bush here

This is 2 real life days after last unvote.

Highlights:

and a game I self hammered as doctor because I was frustrated that people didn’t believe my claim because I didn’t claim flavor?

Get your bs out of here

So when your frustrated as town you care about what happens after you get lynched? When your not frustrated all you care about is surviving?

mhm thinking about it it's actually very similar to his first newbie and yet he's playing different
nah fuck dis s*** I think wheme is actually scum
VOTE: Whemestar

VOTE: texcat
eh after a mite of meta I think tex has a decent chance of being scum

Note: Wave's TC here involves Gamma being incisive and aggressive, which seems simply untenable if you look at the duration between votes and the nature of the pushes.

Golden Robster

Spoiler:

Setup Quotes:

"The True Struggle is for the Superiority of Ideas"

Abilities:

Shadow Shift -- can vanish from the game when scum is put to L-1
Biotic Orb -- Golden Robster can Heal or Destroy her teammates. The question is... who are her teammates?

If scum, these were the scum-tells:

replace out is NAI

claiming VT is scummy

UNVOTE: Wheme

VOTE: whemestar

in my head right now

wheme has a better chance of flipping red since claim is fake

but lynching PP is the better play here on the off-chance it isn't

it just depends on what you believe

Highlights:

VOTE: Whemestar

[Krazy]

What's Gamma at now?

[Krazy]

Nevermind it's 6 and 6 now, both are at L-2.

[Krazy]

Vote Gamma Emerald

[Krazy]

OK, no time travel jokes today.

Anyway, something I noticed during the weekend:

I forget the name of the role. He can let ppl know he's town through his night action.

He already hardclaimed Vanilla Neighbor many times.

yeah he's probably gonna fucking hate me.

He was in a neighborhood that included an Innocent Child and he didn't tell them that he could confirm himself to others?

This isn't totally adding up.

Why are you so convinced? Who else did wavemode confirm himself to?

So, what I think is really interesting here is that wave has not claimed Friendly Neighbor at this point, no one has said anything about that, but KK assumes that wave can confirm himself to multiple people. Like this struck me as a weird assumption at the time, and looking back at it, it kinda strikes me as a slip. PARTICULARLY when you consider this post later:

Oh, I see. If Gamma Emerald doesn't flip neighbor, that confirms that both Tchill13 and wavemode are scum?

So in 6460 KK assumes there is a Friendly Neighbor mechanic involved, so he MUST understand how the mechanic works. But then by 6521 he seems to confuse the Friendly Neighbor ability with the Neighborizor ability.

I think KK slipped and forgot he wasn't supposed to know about Friendly Neighbor and then tried to backtrack by pretending to be confused over the roles.

Vote KK

[Krazy]

Its a meme setup.

Jjd is town, look at gamma vote on him when he votes ss.

[Krazy]

2/2 scum is in kk, gr, vax, and vax is least likely of the three.

[Krazy]

I think wave was right about dave. Daves sig exit would only be explainable for scum if there was a breakdown in scum pt and how tf does that happen with no red flips at that point? Also I lowkey see drunkposting as a towntell,altho you are welcome to disagree on that

[Krazy]

Replace out

Done with mafia.
See my sig.
Adios.
Fuck you very much.

I mean Dave certainly made it seem like he was sincere. This is his post from this game.

Dave was lynched in Fallout on the 20th.

His replaceout from this game was on the 29th.

He was also playing in Project Pinecone, which is an ongoing game in which his slot has not flipped. He was also under pressure in that game, so

your objection that there may have been other factors is sustained

. It's reasonable to want other reasons for Sky to be town than simply Dave's replaceout.

Can you explain why you think Sky is suspicious? I'm not sure I understand your case atm.

[Krazy]

Well the problem with Sky being scum is that it would require 2/3 of KK, GR, and Vax to be town, and at the moment I don't think that's terribly likely.

Beyond that, Sky's play has been slightly townier than her predecessors. I'm also not sure that Frozen Angel does so much word vomit in a low activity game state as scum close to deadline. While Dave's replaceout has wifom I still think it's more likely to be towntilt than scumtilt, and Lovebird had nothing. So I end up with three townleans and a null out of the four people who played the slot, which is a lot townier than any of the other three candidates we have left.

This doesn't really look like scum replacing in to me at a glance:

Based on the sheer number of my townreads on the lalendra wagon I'll likely end up there

Uhhh can you outline your town reads?

(For the townreads on the wagon:)
Hopkirk/Ausuka are confirmed
PP - main counterwagon to wheme
JJD - pushed wheme heavily/consistently
Tchill - like their presence in the past pages
Wave - don't have an opinion of this slot but if Ausuka isn't voting him it's good enough for me for now
Creature - apparently town for a lot of people through meta lately? I'm kind of fuzzy on the deets. Not convinced they're scum w wheme looking at the shenanigans at the end of D2, seemed kind of too blatant for scum?

It's kind of hard to form solid reads this early on into my replacement because I haven't had any interactions but this is good enough for me to sheep for now

Guys, texcat's progression onto dunn is pretty sus, he goes from townreading to suddenly scumreading for a single reason (4315), laid pretty low for most of his wagon, and then hopping on with the naked vote right when the Dunn wagon actually starts to pick up (4819) while his wagon is dying down.

VOTE: texcat

(Sorry for not really participating, I'm going to actively try to change that. I'm technically caught up but just feel so far behind and I kind of feel super out of my element considering I'm one of the newest people here and probably one of the worst scum hunters here. I'll actively work to change my activity levels)

[Krazy]

@Ank on GR, I disagree. KK had to decide which bus made him look less scummy and he couldn't decide. His unwillingness to commit earlier to one of the wagons and the incoherence of his position suggests he was faced with two bad options and was trying to decide which slot had a better chance in endgame. GR was off-wagon so was the better bus yesterday, lynching Gamma would have sacrificed the value they thought Gamma had gained in the Texcat bus the day before.

Scum DID choose another target. THEY WANTED VAX. Remember? But everyone just ignored the scum-driven wagon and made both leading wagons yesterday on scum.

[Krazy]

GR is town

They were the hail mary wagon for scum when there was an opening to save Gamma

If GR was also scum, either another target would've been chosen to try to wagon or scum would've just let Gamma die (unlikely the latter since I don't think scum would've predicted I'd dig in my heels on that lynch like I did)

BTW, this "hail mary wagon" is objectively wrong in not one but two different ways LOL

First, GR PREDATES the Gamma wagon by FIVE DAYS. Gamma was a very late wagon.

Second, the counter-wagonS to GR were BOTH JJD AND Vax. JJD was of course townled but also supported by scum!GR

GR was flailing yesterday, and KK was sitting out hoping someone would bite on Vax.

End of day KK had to choose between which buddy to bus, and he chose the slot he thought was more likely to go down since the votes on GR had not changed over the entire daycycle, whereas Gamma had more movement overall (in addition to Gamma having been a texcat busser so having more potential town equity)

[Krazy]

Out of Vax, GR, and Sky who are thee 2 scum KK?

[Krazy]

Dude KK why is GR town?

[Krazy]

You've said GR is town through this entire game and I have not understood why your hunch went that way at any point

[Krazy]

You seem surprisingly defeated for a game in which we have lynched scum two days in a row.

[Krazy]

Oh, I hope town wins.

But I can't survive until them. I'm too much of a distraction.

You know, at this point, I could see this as being true even if you were scum is the funny part. I feel like the scum game basically fell apart with Tchill's claim.

Like, I look at this:

I'm here. I'm a VT and I know you guys are going to lynch me anyways. With school starting up, I haven't had time to properly play and right now the only defense I can offer is that if I were scum, there's no way that Hopkirk or wavemode would still be alive.

And I see scum that is pissed he was outvoted in the scum PT on the nightkills and is now wagging his finger at his teammates and saying "If you'd listened to me, we wouldn't be in this mess!"

Anyway it seems like the only thing we're waiting on is Ank finishing her daily analysis, but I see no reason for us to do another deadline lynch for this dayphase.

[Krazy]

Ooh, are we doing bets?

OK, if you flip red do I get something?

[Krazy]

So you're afraid to commit something on a bet you know you'll win?

Nice.

[Krazy]

I just think it's funny you'd bet me cookies and then refuse to accept the terms you proposed lol

Like you realize that's objectively funny right?

"I bet you cookies I'm town!

OK!

No, I refuse!"

[Krazy]

Spoiler:

[Krazy]

This day can be faster because there is consensus in the town core abour kk and we are looking at a likely autowin. Also KK isn't saying anything interesting so this is just gonna be multiple days of twiddling thumbs. I'd say hammer whenever personally.

[Krazy]

Is sky your top fos ank or was vax higher?

[Krazy]

I'm A-ok with tomorrow being between Sky and Rob. Not sure where you get a TR in GR, she seems obvious af to me, but I guess we'll let the town decide which case is stronger.

[Krazy]

Never change, Ank. I love these moments.

[Krazy]

VOTE: texcat

that sajj reads list was town

still TRing TBG

Spoiler alert:

Spoiler:

This isn't scum!

[Krazy]

Spoiler:

Just letting Ircher know I have a sitewide

V/LA through Sunday

. I am hoping to continue posting but there is a risk that power/internet will go out late tonight or tomorrow sometime, and the ISP has already said if that happens they don't fix it until the storm passes.

Vote Golden Rob

This does not change through Sunday anyway. I'll have some wallposts and stuff later but my reasoning hasn't fundamentally changed since the GR v. JJD post.

[Krazy]

So I went back and made notes for the Texcat CFD since Ank asked what the VC was at the time of Sky's 6172 Texcat L-2:

Spoiler:

Pre-CFD VC: viewtopic.php?p=10376485#p10376485
Gamma Emerald (1) - Krazy (5816)
JarJarDrinks (6) (L-3) - Gamma Emerald (5703), TehBrawlGuy (5709), Ankamius (5713), Scioness Sajj (5714), Creature (5751), Vaxkiller (5847)
Texcat (0) -
TehBrawlGuy (7) (L-2) - Tchill13 (5174), Golden Robster (5311), Kublai Khan (5520), Texcat (5689), Myloninja13 (5775), JarJarDrinks (5848), Wavemode (5872)
Scioness Sajj (2) - Skygazer (5640), Hopkirk (5648)

EVENTS between Ircher’s pre-CFD VC and Skygazer’s 6172 Texcat vote --
Gamma unvotes from JJD (JJD L-4) -- viewtopic.php?p=10376779#p10376779
JJD switches from TBG to SS (TBG L-3) -- viewtopic.php?p=10376872#p10376872
Hopkirk switches from SS to TBG (TBG L-2) -- viewtopic.php?p=10376925#p10376925
JJD intents to hammer TBG (even tho TBG is at L-2)-- viewtopic.php?p=10376979#p10376979
Krazy switches from Vanity Gamma to Scion (while proposing tex cfd) -- viewtopic.php?p=10376990#p10376990
JJD goes back to TBG (TBG L-1) -- viewtopic.php?p=10377084#p10377084
TBG starts Tex CFD -- viewtopic.php?p=10377204#p10377204
Krazy joins Tex CFD -- viewtopic.php?p=10377223#p10377223
Gamma joins Tex CFD -- viewtopic.php?p=10377228#p10377228

Ank joins Tex CFD

-- viewtopic.php?p=10377265#p10377265

Sky joins Tex CFD (L-4)

-- viewtopic.php?p=10377266#p10377266
Vax joins Tex CFD (L-3) -- viewtopic.php?p=10377280#p10377280
SS joins Tex CFD (L-2) -- viewtopic.php?p=10377292#p10377292

Ank unvotes Tex CFD (L-3) viewtopic.php?p=10377340#p10377340
Ank revotes Tex CFD (L-2)

viewtopic.php?p=10377353#p10377353
Ircher’s Votecount edited in mid CFD, confirming Tex L-3, TBG L-1 (Creature off wagons, VC actually indicates Hop voting twice oops) -- viewtopic.php?p=10377358#p10377358

Ank votes SS (Tex L-3) viewtopic.php?p=10377364#p10377364

GR votes SS (TBG L-2)

viewtopic.php?p=10377367#p10377367
JJD votes SS (TBG L-3) viewtopic.php?p=10377369#p10377369

Sky votes SS (tex L-4, SS L-5)

viewtopic.php?p=10377370#p10377370
Hop votes SS (TBG L-4, SS L-4)
TChil votes SS (TBG L-5, SS L-3) viewtopic.php?p=10377426#p10377426
TBG votes SS (Tex L-5, SS L-2) viewtopic.php?p=10377466#p10377466
SS claims VT viewtopic.php?p=10377491#p10377491
TBG returns to Tex (Tex L-4, SS L-3) viewtopic.php?p=10377547#p10377547
Creature votes Sky (going from now-vanity JJD) viewtopic.php?p=10377569#p10377569
SS posts reads list: viewtopic.php?p=10377653#p10377653
Creature votes Tex (Tex L-3) viewtopic.php?p=10377722#p10377722

Sky votes Tex (Tex L-2, SS L-4)

viewtopic.php?p=10377729#p10377729

6172 Vote VC:
Texcat (L-2) - Krazy, Gamma Emerald, Vax, SS, TBG, Creature, Sky
TehBrawlGuy (L-5) - Kublai Khan (5520), Texcat (5689), Myloninja13 (5775), Wavemode (5872)
Scioness Sajj (L-4) – Ank, GR, JJD, Hop, TChill


POST 6172 events

Ank votes Tex (Tex L-1) viewtopic.php?p=10377738#p10377738

Krazy’s 6253 VC viewtopic.php?p=10377961#p10377961
Tex claims VT viewtopic.php?p=10377974#p10377974
Creature’s MFing Unvote (Tex L-2) viewtopic.php?p=10378073#p10378073
Creature’s revote (Tex L-1) viewtopic.php?p=10378138#p10378138
KK hammer viewtopic.php?p=10378227#p10378227

During the Texcat CFD, there was a scion counter-wagon. On this counter wagon there was:
Ank, who started the Scion counter-wagon, but later put Tex to L-1 with low time on the clock
Sky, who joined the Scion counter-wagon, but later killed the Scion counter-wagon by leaving it at L-3 and put Tex to L-2
and

GR, who joined the scion counter-wagon and 'hard-defended texcat'

*
(also JJD but I've explained at length why I think that slot is likely town, and the Gamma flip makes me even more confident in my read there)

*I have emphasized previously that "hard defense" is misleading here. GR insists she would not "hard defend" texcat if she was being CFD'd. First of all, I simply don't believe that. But second of all, GR did not *hard defend* texcat. Instead, GR *heavy pushed the counter-wagon* which is not the same thing.

Now, there are some problems here.

First of all, Sky moves away from Scion "because that reads list was town" -- the problem here being that Scion was obviously wrong about a lot in her reads list, so that actually is kind of a strange reason in retrospect.

Second of all, you COULD argue that the scion wagon was already dead. But at that point, Sky had already joined the texcat wagon and left the texcat wagon. If she thought texcat was going through anyway (which there's no reason to think she would), why would she have left the texcat wagon in the first place? And second of all, why would she come back to texcat with so little time on the clock? For Sky to be scum, her bus of texcat was either A) super dope, or B) she had like 0 awareness of the gamestate. I don't think either of those are particularly plausible, so that alone lets me think 6172 is alignment indicative and that Sky is likely town.

The biggest problem with Sky's slot is not Sky herself, but actually Frozen Angel. But I still am inclined to think her vanishing during Wheme was truly based on life and I am willing to see that as NAI RIGHT NOW. However, when I first entered the game, I did see Frozen Angel as a possible suspect because of her absence during the Wheme push.

So, IF you can explain why 6172 is not town-indicative, then I am willing to entertain the notion that Sky is GR's buddy, but

I still strongly believe that GR is the better lynch today

.

For every other member of the scion counter-wagon during the texcat CFD, there is a compelling reason to see the slot as town. For GR, there is none.

[Krazy]

Now there is also NKA, which I guess some of you guys like for some reason. Personally I think it's WIFOM heavy, but I thought I'd give an overview of why I don't see Sky as heavily implicated by nightkills. I do not understand how Ank's "game state analysis" results in a Sky conclusion, or why she thinks it does not implicate GR, who seems the most heavily implicated by Nightkills.

Nightkills:
3. Joral Almost50, Town Vanilla, was killed night 1.
25. Flavor Leaf, Town Mason, was killed night 2.
11. Ausuka, Town Activated Innocent Child Neighbor, was killed night 3.
22. TheRampage PenguinPower, Town Vanilla, was killed night 4.
24. Scioness Sajj, Town Vanilla, was killed night 5.
13. EspeciallyTheLies Tchill13, Town Universal Backup --> Town Vengeful Neighbor, was killed night 6.
[now Hopkirk]

Now we have two types of nightkills here. TPR kills and Townblock kills. There are problems with over-reading motivation in either one. But I think if we look at Almost50, it's clear we shouldn't totally discount it, since Almost50 was likely killed to protect Gamma.

Since Hop and Tchill were both after the effective mass claim, they were both killed because they were TPRs. So while I'll mention they both suspected GR, obviously there's an issue reading too much into that.

Almost 50

Spoiler:

#98 -- viewtopic.php?p=10255493#p10255493
+1 Creature, Ank, Mylo [+1 Gamma -- concern that this NK was to protect Gamm, but it's worth considering this because if he called 2 of the scum team here it might have spooked them]
viewtopic.php?p=10256330#p10256330 -- +1 Creature
226 --viewtopic.php?p=10258800#p10258800 [+1 Gamma]
283 -- viewtopic.php?p=10260549#p10260549 [+1 Gamma]
307 -- viewtopic.php?p=10260950#p10260950 [+1 Gamma]
854 -- viewtopic.php?p=10269394#p10269394 [+1 Gamma]
1209 -- viewtopic.php?p=10275415#p10275415 [+1 texcat, +1 Vax]
1352 -- viewtopic.php?p=10277792#p10277792 [+1 Vax]
1460 -- viewtopic.php?p=10278940#p10278940 [+1 Ank]

Conclusion: Gamma +5 (need to consider this when deciding whether NKA has value at all), Vax +2, Creature +2, Ank +2
Almost50 was most likely killed to protect Gamma's slot, but the death does slightly implicate Vax, Creature, and Ank.

Flavor Leaf was a mason and was likely a TPR kill so we can reduce the equity of these by 1/2

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?p=10270995#p10270995 [-1/+1 Creature -- interesting that the first two night kills were people very familiar with Creature]
viewtopic.php?p=10281189#p10281189 [+1 Ank]
viewtopic.php?p=10293055#p10293055 [+1 JJD]
viewtopic.php?p=10293241#p10293241 [-1 Creature]
viewtopic.php?p=10293478#p10293478 [-1 Vax]
viewtopic.php?p=10293568#p10293568 [-1 Vax]
viewtopic.php?p=10294373#p10294373 [+1 JJD]
viewtopic.php?p=10296011#p10296011 [+1 JJD]
viewtopic.php?p=10305189#p10305189 [-1 Creature]
viewtopic.php?p=10308515#p10308515 [+1 Wheme]
viewtopic.php?p=10308548#p10308548 [+1 Wheme]
viewtopic.php?p=10308548#p10308548 [+1 Texcat]
viewtopic.php?p=10308553#p10308553 [-1 Mylo, -1 Vax, +1 Ank, +1 GR]
viewtopic.php?p=10310254#p10310254 [+1 Wheme, +1 GR, +1 Lalendra, +1 PP]
viewtopic.php?p=10310382#p10310382 [+1 GR]
viewtopic.php?p=10310693#p10310693 [+1 GR]
viewtopic.php?p=10315831#p10315831 [+1 Wheme]
viewtopic.php?p=10316957#p10316957 [+1 TBG]
viewtopic.php?p=10317557#p10317557 [+1 TBG]
viewtopic.php?p=10318074#p10318074 [-1 Creature]

Conclusion: GR +4/2, JJD +3/2, TBG +2/2, Vax -2/2, Creature -3/2
Although Flavor Leaf was a TPR kill and therefore the reads are muted, there were three people that were potential TPR kills in this gamestate, so it is still worth considering. Flavor Leaf's kill most implicates GR, slightly implicates JJD and TBG, and points away from Vax or Creature. FL could have been killed as retaliation for leading the town to the Wheme lynch, or from scum that was looking for an eventual Vax or Creature lynch. But it could plausibly have been done to protect GR's slot.

Ausuka -- although this is a TPR kill, her death slightly implicates JJD, Mylo, and TBG.

PP is hard to tell. He was killed while Hop was alive; so while he was killed partly because scum believed there may have been a protective at the time, he was also probably killed because he was townblock. He also implicated tex slightly, so he might have been killed to protect tex only. Also maybe a wifom nightkill since he had also laughed at the Gamma push.

That being said, his death slightly implicates GR, Mylo, and "the Creature Wagon" which is again GR, but also Ank and TBG - viewtopic.php?p=10339450#p10339450
So I'd say +1 GR, +.5 Mylo, +.5 Ank, +.5TBG

Scioness nightkill:

Spoiler:

+1 android/ank viewtopic.php?p=10280804#p10280804
+1 android/ank viewtopic.php?p=10311251#p10311251
+1 Gamma viewtopic.php?p=10365442#p10365442
+1 Mylo/Krazy viewtopic.php?p=10368936#p10368936
+1 TBG viewtopic.php?p=10371913#p10371913
+1 JJD viewtopic.php?p=10372527#p10372527
+1 GR, +1 Sky, +1 JJD, -1 TBG, -1 Vax, -1 Mylo viewtopic.php?p=10377653#p10377653

SS somewhat implicates Ank/Android and JJD (+2 each), somewhat GR and Sky, TBG and Mylo break even, but also could have been to protect Gamma slot.

So if we consider all nightkills, we end up with something like this:
GR: +4
JJD: +2.5 (~3.5 if you add Ausuka)
Ank +2.5
+1 Sky
TBG: +.5
Creature: +.5
Vax - breaks even
Mylo: -.5 (+.5 if you count Ausuka)

-Just about everyone who has been nightkilled suspected GR
-Several people suspected JJD (although I still think he's town)
-Several people Ank (who I am leaning town on still for now, although at this point I honestly think I'd have an easier time casing her than Sky)

Obviously that's all based on my observations of the slots, and NKA itself already is WIFOM heavy. But saying that NKA somehow makes GR look less guilty is just objectively false. It is much worse if you add in Hopkirk and Tchill.

To be clear here, my point here is not to say we should lynch GR because of NKA. My main point here is to demonstrate that we should not *discount* GR because of NKA, which for some reason Ank seems to want to do.

[Krazy]

So let's summarize with a 'full gamestate analysis' since GR likes to say I'm tunneling (which people also said with Gamma, fancy that)

Me
Wave -- conftown

The scum-driven pushes/strong townreads:
19. ArcAngel9 TehBrawlGuy -- Texcat L-1'd TBG and TBG led the texcat CFD (although I would have preferred more enthusiasm and for him to stay on the wagon the whole time)
15. JarJarDrinks -- Gamma nearly tried to CFD this slot, and while we know Gamma busses, he also was a much bigger pusher of the Wheme wagon. While he has done a lot of crazy shit this game, most of that stuff I see as 'aggressive town' than scum.

Weaker Townreads:
23. Myloninja13 -- Meta is weak, but Mylo's play has been very consistent. He lynches scum and town with the same style. While he is detached, I see him as a town lurker rather than a scum lurker.
6. Creature -- Meta is weak, and it is interesting that some of the early kills were people familiar with Creature's meta. While the Texcat unvote near the end made my blood boil, I still think this is more likely town than scum.
14. Lovebird Davesaz Frozen Angel Skygazer -- In addition to Dave's ragequit, which is WIFOM heavy, we have Sky's Texcat L-2, which I take as town-indicative.
17. Andriod18 Ankamius -- I took the slot as towny, but despite this slot champining NKA, she seems indifferent to the implications for her own slot as far as this goes. Beyond that, I don't really like her hard defense of GR or her push on Sky. But I'm not sure how much this is personality conflict/looking at the game in different ways. I'm not particularly inclined to see the Gamma push as a bus, though, so I'm thinking we're just town butting heads, which is fine.

Null:
20. Charles510 Vaxkiller -- I was hoping the KK flip would clear this slot but it seems like not. Vax gives us little to work with.

Strongest scumread:
4. Fumuki Golden Robster -- The wheme vote was a sheep of several conftown/townblock players, and I absolutely see GR bussing wheme earlier than other players (like Gamma). The unvote/vote thing on Wheme was weird and scummy. GR acted extremely weird during the texcat CFD and while she says a hard defense is against her meta, the way she did it was extremely scummy. Her progression on texcat is incoherent over the course of the game. Her interactions with Gamma were forced, fake, and weird. Gamma's interactions with her are forced, fake, and weird. This is definitely scum, the only question is who is her buddy, which I do not currently know with certainty.

[Krazy]

Don't really want to interrupt your stream of consciousness because good things happen during these times, but the wind is picking up and I don't want to lose this post.

So if I am following you, one of your main concerns with GR is that around this point:

Spoiler:

Day 4 VC #12

Dunnstral (8) - JarJarDrinks (4815), Creature (4817), PenguinPower (4819), Texcat (4829), Gamma Emerald (4847), Skygazer (4973), Tchill13 (4988), Golden Robster (5019)

Krazy (1) - Ankamius (5049)
Gamma Emerald (2) - Krazy (4859), Myloninja13 (4965)
Tchill13 (0) -
Texcat (2) - Dunnstral (4670), TehBrawlGuy (4710)
Vaxkiller (1) - Hopkirk (4992)
Scioness Sajj (2) - Vaxkiller (4721), Wavemode (4854)
Not Voting (2) - Kublai Khan, Scioness Sajj (4895)

Lynch Threshold

During day 4, it takes 10 votes to lynch a player.

Deadline

Day 4 ends on August 2, 2018 5:30 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2018-08-02 17:30:00).

Moderator Notes

If you have consistent weekend V/LA, you must remind me every weekend, or I will prod you. Alternatively, you can set V/LA tags each weekend.
Golden Robster is V/LA until August 1.

You are expected to post at least once every 4 days.

If you notice any mistakes, please point them out. (That includes looking at the voting history.)

it seems unlikely that there would be three scum all on the same wagon, because that doesn't seem to fit their general pattern? Because that strikes me as very weak reasoning. Dunn was the chief pusher of the Texcat wagon and also had 'hard defended' Wheme at L-1. They both had more motivation and would have feared less blowback. Also, GR had already committed to Dunn, so her moving off the wagon when it had finally developed would have been odd.

So I absolutely disagree with the idea that the Dunn wagon suggests GR is not scum.

Why would you just assume scum wouldn't go 3/4 on Dunn? Dunn's reads were dope this game. Like you can't just ignore the level of threat the player offered. A nightkill would have too obviously implicated Texcat, so a daylynch with a heavier-commitment does not seem that unusual. I absolutely would not see it as a hard clear for the GR slot.

[Krazy]

Which ones? JJD has been wagoned like every other day to varying degrees of success.

I think there's just about no way Gamma starts a wagon on JJD (on texcat cfd day) when TBG is at L-2 and Scion is at L-1, even for distancing. Gamma would have had minimal blowback for a hammer on either one of those slots. That was good old fashioned opportunism. I have very high confidence in JJD town and the wagons on him have been predominantly scum driven. Wheme, Gamma, even texcat all wanted a piece of JJD. And Wheme I am fairly certain is even worse at scum than texcat and almost certainly was not bussing on his JJD push.

For GR, Gamma definitely wants to be in the middle of the wagon on GR. Gamma is kinda like a shark, he smells blood. When he senses a buddy is going down, he wants to get his bite in. But he doesn't usually draw the first blood on his buddy.

[Krazy]

I covered a lot of it here: viewtopic.php?p=10389501#p10389501

Texcat's posting style strongly suggests there is exactly one scum between JJD and GR. She crafted each post to include both of them and included a lot of fluff to ensure there was something to say, when she does like no fluff posting elsewhere.

JJD immediately pushed for the Mason buddy to claim, which is something I basically only see from town.

Wheme did early push on JJD before any red flips, and Gamma did a big push while SS was at l-1.

There's just a lot of reasons to see JJD as town at this point. Scum either wanted him dead, or wanted him so discredited that he'd be a game-winning mislynch.

[Krazy]

I would say I'm not surprised and I'm glad you're pushing your own leads. I need you to find the second scum for me. I mean, I don't have a second scum. You're not going to shake my scumread in Rob, but I am taking what you say very seriously in evaluating who I see as her buddy or her potential buddies.

[Krazy]

If the stream of consciousness is that it's implausible that 7051 isn't a bus, then I don't buy it.

VOTE: Gamma

^There are exactly 0 reasons to think this isn't a bus. I'm not sure what else you're saying there. We had just CFD'd texcat and half the people off the wagon ended up being masons. Scum DEFINITELY cross bus in that scenario. Like you can't just look at VC. You have to remember gamestate. Texcat was CFD'd, and half the people off the wagon--basically all the available mislynches--claimed mason. If that is not going to 'change scum voting behaviors' I don't know what is.

But I never expected you to shake your weird read of GR town. That's fine. So FYPOV Creature/Vax/Sky is 2/3. Can you narrow it down? Right now you're saying Creature. Who is Creature's buddy then? Vax?

Right now I'm not thinking Sky is scum, but if you want to case Creature then I'm listening. How is Creature scum? That's probably one of my weakest town reads and almost exclusively based on a meta I'm not familiar with, so I'm all ears.

[Krazy]

My main problem with Creature scum is more texcat than Wheme, meta aside. Creature was just chilling off wagon. If he's scum, why does he bus in the first place, when he like, only barely supports the wagon. And then why does he basically nuke any towncred he got from the bus by doing the weird unvote/revote right at the end. idk I don't understand how that fits a scum Creature persona, but then a lot of stuff Creature does is hard for me to understand. Creature gained basically no towncred for texcat bus, and could have easily hammered SS somewhere in there. Just seems like a weird play and I kinda don't see it.

[Krazy]

So are you feeling more or less settled on Creature then?

[Krazy]

Well, you have succeeded in giving me someone to reread, and considering I am basically trapped inside all day tomorrow, I appreciate that. Creature gets to wear a sorting hat. If nothing else it would be good to be more confident in my townread there. The texcat wagon seems like it SHOULD be town indicative for Creature, but it's not nearly as big of a sign as in the case of Sky.

I feel like I missed the critical chain of thought that makes GR town in your argument tho. I feel like you keep saying "no they don't bus there" or "scum don't vote together there" and I keep saying "F yeah they do." Where is town GR? I don't see her anywhere.

[Krazy]

Spoiler:

Someone made a joke about it in another thread, but mfw people actually do go surfing the day of a hurricane.

I mean the main force is still a few hours out, but still. And they say I'm Krazy.

Anyway, it's been downgraded to a category 2, so I'm feeling pretty optimistic that power stays on through the weekend. We'll see though, it still depends on when it turns west.

Anyway, Creature who do you think GR's buddy is? Vax?

[Krazy]

Some introductory notes on Creature meta. This isn't really complete yet. Initial thoughts -- Creature is very aware of his meta, can be INCREDIBLY disengaged as both VT and scum, SEEMS more engaged as TPRs but actually is more bored?

Also the scum comments about Creature's meta this game were complete shit because they were primarily drawing from games where he was TPR, not VT.

In terms of scum on Creature Meta comments, they ALL began with a strong townread of Creature based on meta, and then those who lived longer (Gamma and Texcat) began to walk back that read as the game went on.

Also, fun fact--literally everything Gamma said about meta this game was a lie.

Anyway, some initial notes ahoy (mostly just setting up the list at this point):

Spoiler:

Scum Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=76341&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Early game plays up how boring he finds d1; doesn't vote until 661

Scum Creature (game win) -- viewtopic.php?t=76401&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

first vote 236; 2 naked votes

Scum Creature (venged d1) -- viewtopic.php?f=84&t=75509

No RVS

Scum Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=74286&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

RVS naked at 132; unvote at 284; no other votes

Scum creature -- viewtopic.php?t=75314&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

opens game with anime character image?; RVS 111; unvotes 1145

Scum creature -- viewtopic.php?t=74658&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

first vote naked 1574?!?

Creature IC -- viewtopic.php?t=74442&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Much heavier first posts than usual

Cop Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=71877&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

"so disengaged he forgot to send an action n1" -- this game left an impression on Gamma, and was the reason Gamma was so confident in his early game 'read' of Creature

"Miller Cop-out" -- wtf is a 'cop-out' -- viewtopic.php?t=74058&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Unusually active first post, hardclaims miller second post; first vote naked 133

TPR Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=76904&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

RVS at 17; second vote 228; third vote 243; fourth vote 1017

TPR Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=75388&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

RVS at 45

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=74958&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

No RVS; first vote naked 167

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=75952&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

first vote naked 328

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=76118&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Never votes?

Something town (can't find role list) -- viewtopic.php?t=75978&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

First vote naked at 695

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=73105&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

First vote naked 1376?!?!? WHAT

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=75223&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

First vote 193

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=75347&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

First vote not-naked 106

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=73076&f=55&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

"serious vote" 67 (first post); revotes? 105

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=72817&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

L-1's at 14 (there was an L-1 by post 14?); next vote 47

VT Creature -- viewtopic.php?t=74021&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

First vote 87

[Krazy]

So, a few thoughts.

Those familiar with Creature's meta on the scum team probably could have easily picked out that he was playing to his VT/scum meta, so might have been interested in pocketing him early with their 'meta defense' of his play. That being said, that Gamma based any part of his read on Creature on meta does bother me. Their universal defense of him suggests they wanted him alive toward the late game (either as a buddy, or because they did not plan to nightkill him ever, since he was obviously not TPR).

UNVOTE:

This is the only point where Creature unvotes. Unvotes are one of the biggest Creature scumtells, but this was an unusual situation (Tex at L-1). I'll need to reread some stuff there but I'm inclined to say that Creature is not playing toward his obvious scum meta.

Also, just based on level of engagement, there does seem to be some merit to the idea that Creature!Scum can literally go entire games without casting a single vote, and so it's not unreasonable to say that while both VT!Creature and Scum!Creature are disengaged, Scum!Creature tends to be much more disengaged than VT!Creature.

[Krazy]

viewtopic.php?t=76341&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go -- in this scum game, out of 2 votes, one was on TPR and the other was a bus

viewtopic.php?t=76401&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go -- in this scum game, 1 out of three votes was a bus, with two being on VT

@Creature, not really no.

[Krazy]

viewtopic.php?t=74658&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go -- 50% of votes are busses

Main conclusions at this point --

If this is Scum!Creature, this is a Scum!Creature that has not been seen before. The level of engagement here is not characteristic of Scum!Creature.

The closest analogy to this game is Labyrinth, if Creature was scum -- viewtopic.php?t=76341&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

The closest analogy to this game is "Pick Yer Power" if Creature is VT -- viewtopic.php?t=74021&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

And in this, a more active game, Creature does also unvote once (925)

And this is not really the Creature that played Labyrinth.

So, Creature Meta Arguments Summary:

-Creature is self-aware of his meta
-Creature busses frequently out of the few votes he casts as scum

but

-Activity is somewhat alignment indicative for Creature
-This looks a lot more like the "Pick Yer Power" Creature than the "Labyrinth" Creature

From a meta perspective, I tend to agree with the common argument that Creature looks town. If he is scum this game, he has dramatically changed his scum playstyle in a way I would find surprising.

My main thought right now is that the scum team thought that towncasing Creature early game would give them a slot to say stuff about that didn't actually require that much worse. "Oh yeah, meta, Creature is town. I'm town, I'm giving reads man. And stuff." Since the argument was garbage, they could always change it later, which both Gamma and texcat seemed inclined to do.

[Krazy]

viewtopic.php?t=74658&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go -- 50% of votes are busses

Main conclusions at this point --

If this is Scum!Creature, this is a Scum!Creature that has not been seen before. The level of engagement here is not characteristic of Scum!Creature.

The closest analogy to this game is Labyrinth, if Creature was scum -- viewtopic.php?t=76341&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

The closest analogy to this game is "Pick Yer Power" if Creature is VT -- viewtopic.php?t=74021&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

And in this, a more active game, Creature does also unvote once (925)

And this is not really the Creature that played Labyrinth.

So, Creature Meta Arguments Summary:

-Creature is self-aware of his meta
-Creature busses frequently out of the few votes he casts as scum

but

-Activity is somewhat alignment indicative for Creature
-This looks a lot more like the "Pick Yer Power" Creature than the "Labyrinth" Creature

From a meta perspective, I tend to agree with the common argument that Creature looks town. If he is scum this game, he has dramatically changed his scum playstyle in a way I would find surprising.

My main thought right now is that the scum team thought that towncasing Creature early game would give them a slot to say stuff about that didn't actually require that much worse. "Oh yeah, meta, Creature is town. I'm town, I'm giving reads man. And stuff." Since the argument was garbage, they could always change it later, which both Gamma and texcat seemed inclined to do.

[Krazy]

Another thing I thought of:

One claimed, other refused to claim.

Is it stupid to townread both of them of that?

I looked through all of Creature's scum games... and I think actually his biggest scumtell, one of the ways that you can sort scum!Creature from town!Creature aside from the pure activity meta, which is easy to fake, is that scum!Creature basically doesn't have townreads. He does lists, but he never characterizes the top of his lists as townreads. If he does, he's vague or "forgets" about his townreads.

To that extent, 5754 would be shockingly out of character for a scum!Creature. It's also odd because I agreed with 5754 at the time, which was one of the few points where I actually felt like I was on the same page as Creature.

Creature did some things that are odd this game, I still don't like the unvote/revote on tex, but his scum game tends to be... kind of transparently lurky. I don't see anything in the ballpark of the unvote/revote, I don't see dedicated townreads while people are at L-1, if you care about meta at all (which it's okay not to), then this is definitely town Creature.

Now, if you DO NOT care about meta, there's Creature's play. Ank says that VCA says Creature looks scummy. But if she wants to make an argument that Creature is scummy based on play, then she needs to make that argument, because it is not obvious to me how you reach that conclusion based on VCA.

I still see GR as hands down the best lynch today.

[Krazy]

Iif you think about it, Almost50 is basically a perfect nightkill if Creature is town, and GR is scum. If you look at it objectively, it should implicate GR and Gamma both. But, A50 was loud on Creature, and also countered the 'Creature town' meta, which scum wanted to back down on anyway. Killing A50 eliminates someone who called 2 of the scum team (at least, 3 if Vax is in there too) while a casual glance at A50 in iso instead might seem to implicate Creature. A50 being wrong on Creature gave the scum team just enough cover to kill him while protecting 2-3 of their slots. At the same time, it sets up Creature as a future mislynch.

@Ank, whatever type of read it is, you need to explain it

[Krazy]

like

very common for me to explain something and people just dismiss what I'm saying because I make a lot of assumptions when the truth is that I've been building up to where I was for long enough that I just actually forget the steps I used to reach those 'assumptions' in the first place

it's a lot easier and more likely to get somewhere if I just have people retrace my steps and have an opinion on things in the way I see it

Yeah except that only works if you're really going off of VCA or something. You're now saying you're judging Creature on play. So WHAT PLAYS? What posts? There's no reason you shouldn't be able to point to something to discuss. I feel like every time I try to narrow down even the NATURE of your argument you shift gears.

Ank: "I'm doing NKA"

Krazy: "OK well I did NKA and NKA says GR is scum"

Ank: "Actually I'm doing VCA"

Krazy: "OK well I did some VCA and VCA says GR is scum"

Ank: "Actually I'm doing game state analysis"

Krazy: "I don't know what that means but if you mean PoE, then PoE says GR is scum"

Ank: "Actually I'm doing reads based on play"

Krazy: "OK well I did reads based on play and GR is definitely scum based on play"

Ank: "Actually I can't explain my reads"

Krazy: "..."

Right now you're saying GR is town "because reasons". I mean that's fine, that's still more than some people, but you can't expect me to change my read of GR when GR is scum by literally every metric one can use to evaluate the game of mafia.

[Krazy]

How you feeling about GR today Sky?

[Krazy]

DID YOU KNOW that "nka" is actually in "aNKAmius"?

[Krazy]

Why isn't GR in your lynch pile Mylo?

[Krazy]

So the only people you townread outside of Wave is Ank and TBG?

[Krazy]

Golden Robster has a pattern to her votes. The pattern is that she's scum and mostly wants to lynch town, except when she needs to bus. Sometimes maybe she likes to get some distancing in.

It seems like your argument is that Golden Robster is better at playing scum than obvscum texcat, not that she's town.

[Krazy]

Wrong.

[Krazy]

If Ank is scum, she's some ungodly abomination that's a hybrid of C.Shep's weird busses and the worst's nonstop redirection. The constant evasion on reads and the complete unwillingness to give anything in the ballpark of a coherent argument is tiresome. I have seen this smokescreen of bullshit used by power gaming scum before, so it's not like she's town just because she's tryhard active posting. Her reads make no sense and until they do she should basically just be ignored. Sky made a better case on Vax in three posts than she did in 60. That's what wave would call a "poor signal to noise ratio". Her case (or lack of a case, since she doesn't case) on Creature is simply bad.

That being said she's probably just tryhard town and hilariously wrong on GR. I have a hard time imagining scum being this obstinately wrong on a buddy. But at the moment I have an easier time seeing that than Creature!Scum.

Today being between Vax and GR is still fine. GR should go through first. While Vax is basically impossible to towncase because of his playstyle, he is still not quite certainly scum, unlike GR, who I daresay could not be scummier if she hardclaimed goon.

[Krazy]

Is there anything in particular that makes you lean town on GR?

[Krazy]

OK well here we go then.

[Krazy]

Lynching/wagoning you is far too troublesome so i'd take the easy route; sheep you and then buddy you for a bit

viewtopic.php?p=7787619#p7787619

OK. Since town either today or tomorrow seems to want to wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory, we will do one more push. Ultimately I cannot make you guys win. It's really up to you.

But let's just do full meta breakdown of GR.

Let's look at a data bracket of:

Spoiler:

Scum games:
viewtopic.php?t=65760&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65286&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

TPR:
viewtopic.php?t=65021&f=55&st=0&sk=t&sd ... _sort=GoVT

VT (8 games full list):
viewtopic.php?t=64916&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65120&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=66305&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65428&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65508&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65890&f=55&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65851&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65468&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

But of the VT games, the most significant are these two:
viewtopic.php?t=64916&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=65428&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

So let's begin with a few basic observations.

First,

GR clearly has an inverted meta

. What I mean by this is that GR's involvement is the opposite of that of a player like Creature. She tries very hard as scum, but as town she very often gets bored and replaces out. Now, in fairness, this level of GR involvement is something new regardless. But the first point to establish here is that you should NOT take high activity GR as being town indicative. Even if GR has replaced in after hundreds of posts have already been put out, GR will still be in the top posters for a game as scum. Whereas, GR hardly ever is in the top posters as town.

Partly this is because

as scum GR puts on active town theater

.

Let's consider how GR constructs a list as a TPR

Spoiler:

1. Radiant Cowbells - town
2. AJ The Epic - scum
3. Cobblerfone - potential scum
4. Masquerade - potential scum
5 Xkfyu - potential scum
6. Almost50 - town
7. Golden Robster - town
8. pisskop - town

as TPR, GR constructs a list, indicates who is town and who is scum just going down. While there are "potential scum" there's really only town, scum and potential town. But of course she plays a lot of games, this isn't the only way she makes a list.

Spoiler:

Reads

Town
Axle - Solid reasoning and attempt to pressure me was very strong. Strong town vibes.
Keysor - Again, logical and analytical. First one on the Ras wagon so I'm pretty sure he is town.
Leaning Town
Massive - Second one on the Ras wagon. Good reasoning and logical thinking.
Ircher - I'd say he's pretty town. Good posts with substance.
Null
Boon - Not paid much attention to him.
RC - Not caught up.
Leaning Scum
UTL - I'm actually reconsidering this scum read partly due to the change in vote from PK to UTL. (Maybe I'm crazy, who knows)
PK - Doesn't strike me as town. His comments have been lacking and the sudden change in vote has made me immensely suspicious of him. No reasoning to back it up?
Performer - When I talked about the gut read, he switched me from slightly town to scum. Not only does this seem like an overreaction, but the possibility that scum performer realises he's on his last legs, and is trying to find someone else who looks scummier could be quite possible.

I know, I know. Everybody's like "Wow GR, why do you scum read Performer when you thought he was town like 2 seconds ago".

Here we have a VT GR read list. How is this different than the TPR list? Well, there's a simple explanation for each read. This is because GR knows that if her pushes are going to have merit there needs to be an explanation behind her reasoning. And she needs weight behind her pushes because she needs to find scum as town.

Now, what does GR do with lists as scum?

Spoiler:

Post 1:

{Almost50}
{Snarky}
{Kelbris, knightmare}
{Ranger}

VOTE: Ranger

Post 2:

{Ranger, Almost50, Snarky}
{Kop}
{Kelbris, Knightmare}

Knightmare & Ranger are most likely not the same alignment from that discussion, unless they orchestrated that little discussion which I doubt considering both factions do not have a daychat.

I liked Ranger's response in #21 and I disliked Knightmare's response to Ranger's vote. There was an aggressiveness in his posts that i'm not quite sure what to think of.

Post 8:

{Grapes}
{Ranger, Snarky}
{Kop, Kelbris}
{Shotty}
{Almost}
{Knightmare}

Well what's the first thing you notice here? Well, there's more than one list! This is what I mean by active!town theater. GR is constantly throwing out full read lists as scum, making small edits, because she wants to showcase just how much she is trying to sort and her entire view of the game state.

Spoiler:

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Pine

Kind of town

:

Neutral/Undecided

: Charles (N), Ausuka (UD)

Meh

: JJD, Texcat, Hopkirk

Leaning Scum

:

Scum

:

Potential lynches:

JJD, Texcat, Hopkirk

Reads right now; haven't listed everybody because some people only have votes and zero content so not taking this seriously but where I'm at right now

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Pine

Kind of town

: Hopkirk, Dunnstral, Creature, Scioness

Neutral/Undecided

: Lalendra (N), Ausuka (UD), JJD (UD), Android (N)

Meh

: Texcat, Lovebird, Performer

Leaning Scum

: Vaxkiller

Scum

:

Potential lynches:

Vax > Tex > Performer > Lovebird

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK, Pine
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Creature

Kind of town

: Hopkirk, Dunnstral, Scioness, Android

Neutral/Undecided

: Lalendra (N), Lovebird (dave) (UD), Whemestar (N), Wavemode (N), Rampage (N), Mylon (N)

Meh

: Texcat, JJD, ETL, Lalendra

Leaning Scum

: Performer, Vax

Scum

:

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK, Pine
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Creature

Kind of town

: Hopkirk, Dunnstral, Scioness, Android, Ausuka

Neutral/Undecided

: Lalendra (N) (kind of meh), Lovebird (dave) (UD), Whemestar (N), Wavemode (N), Rampage (N), Mylon (N), FL (N)

Meh

: Texcat, JJD, ETL,

Leaning Scum

: Performer (could be scum or playstyle pinging), Vax

Scum

:

Lynches: Vax > Performer > Tex > ETL

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK, Pine
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Creature

Kind of town

: Hopkirk, Dunnstral, Scioness, Android, Ausukam, ETL

Neutral/Undecided

: Lalendra (N) (kind of meh), Lovebird (dave) (UD), Whemestar (N), Wavemode (N), Rampage (N), Mylon (N), FL (UD), AA9 (N)

Meh

: Texcat, JJD,

Leaning Scum

: Performer (could be scum or playstyle pinging), Vax

Scum

:

Lynches: Vax > Performer > Tex

Town

: Ausuka (conf town) (3p hood)

Leaning Town

: A50, KK, Gamma, Performer (3p hood)
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Hopkirk, Lalendra, Pine

Kind of town

: Scioness, Android, ETL, Dunstrall, FL, Wavemode (3p hood)

Neutral/Undecided

: Whemestar (N), Rampage (N), Mylon (N), AA9 (N), Creature (UD)

Meh

: Texcat, JJD, Dave

Leaning Scum

: Vax

Scum

:

What the fuck are we even looking at here? Look at how many full read lists with very little variation and only a few explanations are given here. None of these read lists are really developing her push in a significant way. But they all give the IMPRESSION she is trying to sort. It is CONSTANT revision of a full reads list that is pure theater.

"OK" you're saying, "GR gives a lot of read lists early in the game. That's not that scummy right?"

But that's just part of it, GR is constantly dropping little 'seeming pro-town' actions, like:

Mod/deadline extensions:
Scum game:

@mod do we get a deadline extension?

This game:

@mod can we get an extension on the deadline since we need two replacements, not just one

As scum, GR does more: "Hey look at me guys I'm online, who wants to talk?"

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?p=7724470#p7724470

If anybody is wondering why i'm posting a lot it's cause this is probably my only chance at a computer for the week so if anybody has any questions then now is the time to do so

viewtopic.php?p=7724474#p7724474
QQ, no one wants to talk when she's online:

nobody?

>.>

[/quote]

What does she do in this game?

Spoiler:

is anybody online right now to talk with me

need to go sleep soon

going to shower and then come back to this

Scum GR LOVES Active Town Theater, and it is something that is largely scum indicative for her.

[Krazy]

Now let's talk about vote progression:

Here is a VT unvote --

UNVOTE: Pisskop

And then GR revotes a while after reassessing. It does happen.

I emphasize that there are exceptions to the rule here, but I want to say that they 'prove the rule.'

Here is what you will usually see from GR:

Also, add Boon to the lynch pile as well. His slot looks complete shit from the votes alone.

UNVOTE: Boon

VOTE: UTL

viewtopic.php?p=7677974#p7677974

VOTE: Java

LEZ GO

viewtopic.php?p=7891879#p7891879
(GR never "unvotes" in this game)

UNVOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Rask

viewtopic.php?p=7682046#p7682046

UNVOTE: Massive

VOTE: Oceanwind

viewtopic.php?p=7704779#p7704779

i have balanced all
brought all to mind

and we should now bandwagon

VOTE: Slandaar

viewtopic.php?p=7797112#p7797112

(VT GR never unvotes in this game)

VOTE: kts

wagon this

viewtopic.php?p=7797094#p7797094
(GR never unvotes in this game)

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Maxous

You really think an RVS wagon would transition into a full scale lynch.

viewtopic.php?p=7708769#p7708769

As you can see, in the general pattern, GR either votes, or unvotes and IMMEDIATELY votes another player. This is because GR's TOWN philosophy is to APPLY PRESSURE WITH VOTES. She applies pressure with votes to get content and solidify her read. She puts pressure on slots because she wants to lynch scum.

Now, let's compare to GR's voting pattern in this game:

UNVOTE: JarJarDrinks

It feels like you voted your scum buddy for some distancing then it backfired, now hes yelling at you in scumchat.

throwing shade and painting my unvote as a scummy narrative when I said I'm thinking and re-evaluating?

:s

VOTE: Vaxkiller

UNVOTE: Vax

VOTE: Wavemode

UNVOTE: Wavemode

VOTE: ArcAngel9

VOTE: Hopkirk

what would you say if I said I had a guilty on your slot

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

VOTE: PP

will out reads soon

This is not how Town!GR plays mafia. This is how Scum!GR plays mafia. Scum!GR does unvote, pause, vote, because Scum!GR wants to play up her active!town theater and also get the impact of 'unvoting' on a player. Oh, I thought you were scum, but BECAUSE I AM THINKING ABOUT THE GAME, I have changed my mind! Power scum like GR LOVE the emphasis on how much THOUGHT she is putting into the game. But this is actually a scum tell, because town!GR doesn't care if people think she is thinking about the game, she just tries to lynch scum.

This is why GR has so many hundreds of posts in this game. Because EVERY TIME she decides that town!GR has had a thought, she makes a post. Because she has to prove to town JUST HOW MUCH she is thinking about the game.

It is fake. She is scum. She must be lynched.

[Krazy]

Now let's talk about Texcat.

Town

: Ausuka (conf town) (3p hood)

Leaning Town

: KK, Gamma, ETL, FA
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Hopkirk, Dunstrall, Pine
------- (not willing to lynch above)

Kind of town

: Android, Wavemode (3p hood), Lalendra

Neutral/Undecided

: Mylon (UD), PP (UD)

Meh

: JJD, FL, Texcat, AA9, Whemestar

Leaning Scum

: Vax*, Creature, Scioness

Scum

:

GR has often had texcat as fairly scummy, or "meh" -- what does "meh" mean anyway?

But what about Myloninja? He doesn't get a tr?

Probably just a passing comment and not her full reads; texcat, why are you voting osuka?

Here's a question. Why does this question not have a vote?

Let's compare to Town!GR:

In post 62, OceanWind wrote:
VOTE: Masquerade

I have townreads on Keyser Soze and mn.

And presumably you scum read masquerade since your voting him.

Why?

I disagree with both of those reads but go ahead. Explain.

viewtopic.php?p=7704767#p7704767

UNVOTE: Massive

VOTE: Oceanwind

viewtopic.php?p=7704779#p7704779

When GR does not like a question, or does not like a slot's reaction, she votes the slot.

But GR doesn't do this for texcat.

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Pine

Kind of town

:

Neutral/Undecided

: Charles (N), Ausuka (UD)

Meh

: JJD, Texcat, Hopkirk

Leaning Scum

:

Scum

:

Potential lynches:

JJD, Texcat, Hopkirk

Reads right now; haven't listed everybody because some people only have votes and zero content so not taking this seriously but where I'm at right now

GR's read of texcat changes early on to become a "potential lynch" -- but she never votes texcat

texcat

- you have asked a lot of questions - do you have any conclusions? or just reads.

this

texcat is all questions and zero commitment

just pings me like passive scum acting town with lack of actual followup and zero interest in the questions they're asking in the first place

Great point! Where's the vote?

Let's go back to our observation from earlier:

UNVOTE: JarJarDrinks

It feels like you voted your scum buddy for some distancing then it backfired, now hes yelling at you in scumchat.

throwing shade and painting my unvote as a scummy narrative when I said I'm thinking and re-evaluating?

:s

VOTE: Vaxkiller

What the fuck? GR goes from "texcat is a potential lynch" and "texcat is not producing content" to "unvote JJD" to "vote Vax" -- WHY?

This progression MAKES NO SENSE and it is NOT how GR plays town

And then what happens next?

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK, Pine
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Creature

Kind of town

: Hopkirk, Dunnstral, Scioness, Android

Neutral/Undecided

: Lalendra (N), Lovebird (dave) (UD), Whemestar (N), Wavemode (N), Rampage (N), Mylon (N)

Meh

: Texcat, JJD, ETL, Lalendra

Leaning Scum

: Performer, Vax

Scum

:

WHAT? Why is Texcat now back to "Meh"?

Town

:

Leaning Town

: A50, KK, Pine
------- (town block)

Semi-leaning Town

: Osuka, Creature

Kind of town

: Hopkirk, Dunnstral, Scioness, Android, Ausuka

Neutral/Undecided

: Lalendra (N) (kind of meh), Lovebird (dave) (UD), Whemestar (N), Wavemode (N), Rampage (N), Mylon (N), FL (N)

Meh

: Texcat, JJD, ETL,

Leaning Scum

: Performer (could be scum or playstyle pinging), Vax

Scum

:

Lynches: Vax > Performer > Tex > ETL

And here's where you can see the active!town theater leads into a play strategy. Texcat is ALWAYS SCUMMY, but never the lynch in GR's early game. She can ALWAYS BUS LATER, but she doesn't want texcat lynched today. THIS IS HOW GR PLAYS SCUM

Dunnstral(6) ~ JarJarDrinks(9), Creature(12), PenguinPower(8), Texcat(4), Gamma Emerald(10), Skygazer(11), tchill, GR

my take on this wagon right now

JJD - leaning hard town
Creature - undecided
PP - leaning hard town
texcat - surface town
gamma emerald - surface mafia
skygazer - leaning town
tchill - surface town/potential mafia

WHAT? WHY IS TEXCAT NOW TOWN?

Ah, but the question isn't WHY is texcat town. The question is WHEN is texcat town. Texcat becomes town in GR's reads WHEN WAGONS DEVELOP ON HER.

You asked for my reasons and I gave them to you. They may not be the best reasons, they may not be a convincing case on TBG, but they are not fake. Oh, or were you expecting me to say that your case on TBG is what convinced me?

no I'm asking you for actual reasoning that compelled you to vote tbg and not half-hearted reasoning that you made up on the spot

where was your TBG predecessor scumread stated?

But GR continues to poke questions at texcat, but never puts a vote on it. Why is there no vote on texcat after THIS question?

if tex was scum she would 100% be making more of an effort to appear town right now; her last post was awful

the fact that she doesn't look like she gives a shit means that she's either pro scum (which I 100% doubt) or town that doesn't care (which I believe right now)

This is bullshit and completely at odds with how town!GR plays mafia

HARD LURKING IS MORE SURVIVALISTIC THAN VOTING

DO YOU NOT LARGE GAME?

texcat had a flash wagon on her brought down to L-2 and she did nothing to defend herself; how is that survivalistic?

hard lurking isn't alingment indicative so don't give me that shit; you didn't wagon mylo or vax for that

This is bullshit and completely at odds with how GR approaches scumhunting as town.

Sky has already made a big part of this case. Sky has already observed--GR's progression on Texcat makes ZERO sense. I want to re-emphasize that not only is GR's progression on texcat totally illogical but it is also TOTALLY at odds with how town!GR plays mafia.

VOTE: SS

This is scum voting a counter-wagon on town to protect a buddy that she spent the first half of this game calling scum, randomly switched to town, and then INDIRECTLY defended by pushing counter-wagons while she was being run up.

[Krazy]

So let's review:

What evidence is there that GR is town?

None.
-We already know scum committed to bussing Wheme, and GR joined on Wheme after the wagon was already fully formed.
-GR did NOT bus texcat but used WIFOM to argue that she wouldn't
-GR was put into a position where she has to crossbus after the texcat vote because the masons and townblock had grown too large

Where is the evidence that GR is scum?

Everywhere.
-GR Is constantly playing up scumhunting theater while rarely developing reads into sustained arguments and rarely getting wagon support for her pushes. Remember, when she is town, she pushes to get people to join her wagons and sheep her vote.
-She goes out of her way to foreground 'active town play' with little barrages of small posts
-She is constantly unvoting and revoting, always playing up her decision making process rather than emphasizing the pressure she's putting on wagons
-She is constantly tweaking her own little lists to play up her appearance of sorting while never actually committing to half her reads
-Her development on texcat is totally incoherent and her counter-push on Scion was inconceivable for a town!GR
-Texcat's interactions with her are forced and very puffery, and always include an additional response to JJD because texcat doesn't trust herself to only respond to a scumbuddy
-Gamma's interactions with her are incredibly fake and totally at odds with how both vote
-She has unloaded a massive wave of AtE and why-meisms as soon as she was under pressure which is TOTALLY consistent with how she plays scum when she's under pressure

[Krazy]

Anyway, I'm sure Ank will spam like 5000 fucking little response so this gets pushed back to an earlier page by the time anyone logs on, but GR is basically playing her scum game to a T and she absolutely should get lynched today. I know Ank will throw nonstop shade at me while quoting herself or something and saying the word "gamestate read" three times a post, and then GR will come in and say I'm tunneling because that is literally the only rebuttal GR has ever offered. But I do at some point need some mixture of TBG, Creature, Mylo, and Sky to actually lynch GR if we are going to win this game.

[Krazy]

Mylo, let's push through GR today

[Krazy]

GR is the one true party train!

NEVER DOUBT THE PARTY TRAIN, IT HAS LED US TO GREAT THINGS

[Krazy]

GR train has all the best snacks

Associative drinks 6879
Fake sheeping snacks 7036
VCA dip 7217
NKA salsa 7219
PoE chips 7221
Meta desserts 7427

We have a regular old potluck in this wagon fam.

[Krazy]

this is where I'm at right now

Town

- [GR, Wavemode]

Leaning Strong Town

- [Ankamius]

Leaning Town

- [Creature, Krazy, TBG]

Semi-leaning town

- [Mylo]

Semi-leaning scum

- [Skygazer, JJD]

Leaning scum

- [Vax]

Okay yeah these are pretty solid reads

Mylo, first of all, if gr is scum, then there is only one other scum. So all of the townreads can easily be correct.

Second, after 7,000 posts, her only strong townread is the person defending her right now.

There is nothing town about this list.

[Krazy]

Creature please lynch GR with me.

[Krazy]

once I flip, he'll 100% push anka who is my strongest TR

nice slip

please lynch this

[Krazy]

TBG WHY do you think GR is town

Stop just popping in and engage

[Krazy]

So let's review:

What evidence is there that GR is town?

None.
-We already know scum committed to bussing Wheme, and GR joined on Wheme after the wagon was already fully formed.
-GR did NOT bus texcat but used WIFOM to argue that she wouldn't
-GR was put into a position where she has to crossbus after the texcat vote because the masons and townblock had grown too large

Where is the evidence that GR is scum?

Everywhere.
-GR Is constantly playing up scumhunting theater while rarely developing reads into sustained arguments and rarely getting wagon support for her pushes. Remember, when she is town, she pushes to get people to join her wagons and sheep her vote.
-She goes out of her way to foreground 'active town play' with little barrages of small posts
-She is constantly unvoting and revoting, always playing up her decision making process rather than emphasizing the pressure she's putting on wagons
-She is constantly tweaking her own little lists to play up her appearance of sorting while never actually committing to half her reads
-Her development on texcat is totally incoherent and her counter-push on Scion was inconceivable for a town!GR
-Texcat's interactions with her are forced and very puffery, and always include an additional response to JJD because texcat doesn't trust herself to only respond to a scumbuddy
-Gamma's interactions with her are incredibly fake and totally at odds with how both vote
-She has unloaded a massive wave of AtE and why-meisms as soon as she was under pressure which is TOTALLY consistent with how she plays scum when she's under pressure

This is not a wall.

Interact here TBG.

GR is fake. Look at how many times she goes, "oh, scum wouldn't bus here." But then look at her explanation of texcat. "Oh, if I was scum I'd definitely bus here." So GR sees busses as implausible all the time but then when she thinks about how SHE plays scum she decides that of course she would bus. This too is cognitive dissonance.

Remember the structure of her argument when she pushed back against your case against JJD. Then compare that to how she defends herself on texcat. The arguments are irreconcilable.

[Krazy]

GIVE ME FUCKING ONE ON WHY SHE IS TOWN THEN

JUST FUCKING ONE

[Krazy]

Do you remember Hopkirk? Every day fucking "texcat is town man, seems towny"

krazy: WHY

no response

TEXCAT FLIPS SCUM

every day

Krazy: GR is scum fam

TBG/Ank: nah GR town

Krazy: WHY

*crickets*

[Krazy]

YEAH, WHEN THEY AGREED WITH MY FOURTH POST OF THE GAME

STOP TOOTING YOUR OWN HORN, MY EARLY READS HAVE FUCKING BEEN BETTER THAN YOURS ANK

ACCUSE ME OF TUNNELING AGAIN AND I VOTE YOU PURELY OUT OF SPITE

GIVE ME AN ARGUMENT OR SHUT THE FUCK UP

[Krazy]

Not Bad Guys:
HopKirk
Ausuka (neighbor does not confirm the buddies here right?)

First impressions bad guys:
Dunnstral
Golden Robster
Gamma Emerald
Texcat

First Impression "Maybe bad guys":
Frozen Angel
Wavemode

First impression good guys:
JarJarDrinks
Kublai Khan
Ankamius

Null first impression:
Creature
Lalendra
Tchill13
TehBrawlGuy
Vaxkiller
PenguinPower
Myloninja13
Scioness Sajj

Way too much to process all at once, but need to start somewhere.

LOOK ANK I CAN QUOTE MY OWN FUCKING POSTS TOO

NOW EVERYONE FUCKING SHEEP ME AND LYNCH GR

[Krazy]

being a huge wagon all of D6 until we CFD'd to gamma? going to L-1 after the CFD?

once GR hits L-1, any scumbuddy can hammer, gain massive townpoints, and make Gamma look towny as fuck for being the counter to GR

Gamma was already on GR and Vax wasn't online

Try again

[Krazy]

YEAH, WHEN THEY AGREED WITH MY FOURTH POST OF THE GAME

STOP TOOTING YOUR OWN HORN, MY EARLY READS HAVE FUCKING BEEN BETTER THAN YOURS ANK

ACCUSE ME OF TUNNELING AGAIN AND I VOTE YOU PURELY OUT OF SPITE

GIVE ME AN ARGUMENT OR SHUT THE FUCK UP

if we're going to dickwave about reads, mine have been better than both ank's and yours and I think GR is a bad lynch

I actually want the dickwaving to stop, which is why I just told Ank to shut the fuck up. Her shading me after every single post less than 2 minutes after I post shows that a) she isn't thinking about my posts whatsoever and b) she town-tunneling GR so much she isn't even considering counter evidence

You have offered a better rebuttal in one sentence than she has in one hundred posts

[Krazy]

I don't think that way and I still manage to have a good reads record

If you don't like my methods, tough I guess

I pushed through the Gamma wagon despite half the thread telling me Gamma wouldn't leave a friendly neighbor around

That's evidence they're not total bullshit like you say they are

To be clear Ank, I don't think your scumreads are garbage.

I think your townreads are.

It's not that you're bad at this game, it's just that when you are wrong, you are VERY WRONG

[Krazy]

What the fuck am I able to say that you would ever believe?

You've discounted my methods enough by now, I don't really know what else I would be able to do other than try to force out literally everything that results in that read, which will only turn into a jumbled mess that you will just discount out of hand anyways

You have no discernible method. I have refuted your points on NKA and VCA and you continue to offer 0 rebuttal. You think GR active posting while she's under pressure is town indicative. It's not. GR is at her best under pressure.

This is frustrating because you could plausibly be right on Vax but we basically have to do GR today because if you get any further up your own ass I think we lose this game. Creature is almost certainly town

[Krazy]

If you're town you should be happy because I totally agree with your solve and will sheep your votes post-death.

It's what I did for Dunn and it basically got us to where we are today.

Either you're scum, or you're the new Dunn, either way you're the best lynch and I have no regrets.

[Krazy]

(But you're scum)

[Krazy]

We need Creature to revote GR and we need Mylo/Sky to hammer GR.

I don't know if I made this clear but my preferred lynch today is GR. Sorry worried I wasn't making that point clear. Sometimes I can be too subtle.

[Krazy]

Don't think a reaction test works when he is not online.

[Krazy]

But you can't see his face...

Anyway how does claiming scum help the fake hammer I don't get that

[Krazy]

Like the whole idea is to get him to claim scum right

Sorry I'm not used to fake hammers as a way to generate townreads

[Krazy]

Anyway Sky when you get back please L-1 GR so we can maybe lynch scum today.

[Krazy]

Today be super chill if you want.

Here's what I'd propose--why don't we just take turns?

Yesterday was an Ank and TBG day. That's fine. I was a little tilted you lyched my #2 townread but that's okay. You had your reasons.

So I'll just ask: Can we please do GR today?

Tomorrow I am happy to go with the flow of things regardless of which way GR flips.

We can do this friends. TOGETHER. There doesn't need to be a lot of conflict. We all have our different reads. That doesn't mean we can't be friends.

[Krazy]

I guess we're just gonna keep ignoring basically the entire graveyard

vote gr

Basically last non prodge for me this game

[Krazy]

Sure do wish Sky and Creature would go on gr today

[Krazy]

Ahhh fine

VOTE: Vax

Sorry Krazy but I really don't think GR has a higher chance of flipping scum here

(Shh, Mylo, I wrote something for you here but don't show it to anyone else. I'm still lurking and am not writing any wallposts this dayphase)

Spoiler:

You are right, that Vax has kind of weird progressions, but there's a problem there. First, Vax actually tends to have MORE intuitive responses as scum. He is more likely to straight up defend his partner or commit to a bus. It's kinda weird that he's bounced around so much this game. Basically, if Vax is scum, this a significantly better and more confusing game for him than usual. This makes Vax still a viable lynch, but not a great lynch because he is behaving in a surprising manner as scum.

Conversely, if you consider GR, you should actually be highly alarmed that she voted Creature at all. As town, GR tends to primarily focus on her top fos. If you look at GR on Creature this game, her reads are all over the place, calling him town one dayphase, scum the next, constant back and forth. I lost track of the number of flip-flops she had. As town, GR does not radically go back and forth on reads to this extent, and certainly not this many times for the same slot.

The reason for this flip flopping is that GR basically plays scum by building her pushes off the reads of other players. In the previous dayphase, you, TBG, and Ank all indicated a willingness to push Creature. So, even though in the last four days GR has several times said Creature seemed town, she has backpedaled that position since she thought it seemed like a viable mislynch today.

Basically the perfect example of this is her position on Mario in this game she won as scum: viewtopic.php?t=65760&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Just do ctrl+f on Mario and watch the constant back and forth on her positions

Starts by shading Mario
then she calls Mario town
Asks mario questions
gives a very weird "mafia/town" read
then goes back to Mario town
Finally, she wins the game by lynching Mario

How did GR win that game? How did she get away with flipping her position on the slot that many times?

She waits for 2-3 people to say someone they are willing to lynch
Then she just happens to agree with the position of the other players
GR started out this dayphase pushing Creature because she thought you, TBG, and Ank would get on board for a Creature mislynch.
TBG has been gone though, and you softened your stance on Creature, so eventually she shifted back over to Vax since that's the more likely lynch to go through. Why was GR on Creature today? Because you said you would be willing to mislynch him. Why did GR change to Vax? Because you didn't actually stick to what you said yesterday.

In short, just like literally everything else this game, this is exactly how GR played scum in Open 632.

Please get on board with lynching GR today. I'm basically begging you at this point Mylo. Vax is not the best lynch today. He is scummy but he is just not even in the same ballpark as GR. Every time you switch away from GR I feel physically nauseous.

[Krazy]

GR stop pretending like I've said anything about you. I'm trying to have a private conversation with Mylo here! Rude!

(Ok Mylo I wrote something else for you here)

Spoiler:

You're worried about mislynching GR for loss, but that's not possible for two reasons. First, GR is scum so that won't be a mislynch. Second, scum had 3 prs and we have 0 investigatives, which basically means there is no way there is a traitor or a 6th goon or this setup would not have made it past review. Today is not mylo. But, if we lynch Vax now, there is a risk (not a certainty) that it will be, which means that if you are WRONG on Vax, you are putting your faith in me anyway, since I am not voting anyone other than GR until she is lynched. So if you aren't 100% on Vax, you should resolve me vs. GR today so that I can give more input on other wagons.

It's also the case that GR is a very strong scum player at the top of her game in the situation that is most engaging for her. Lynching the scum carry is WAY more important than lynching GR's buddy here.

But you're right. This is a complicated game. So let's...



Now, you also should be asking yourself here, who were the strongest town players this game? Who should you be listening to?
Is it TBG? Ank? Me?

No. None of us got the most important scum flip, which was Wheme. The people who carried us this game were players like Flavor Leaf and Penguin Power.

GR was Flavor Leaf's #2 scumread when he died--and he was the first TPR to die, which suggests his death had something to do with his play. FL wanted GR way back on d2 2774 and his case was "whishy washy stances" 2778 -- Flavor Leaf died first, because Flavor Leaf was willing to call GR out on her constant flips on her reads. That "flip flopping" has gotten extremely worse since then. Remember, my case on GR is not based on meta. I use meta to highlight the similarity to her scum play and the difference from her town play. But in and of itself, just looking at this game, going through GR on Texcat or Creature--this is not a town progression. No one flips this many times on reads if they are town. NOT EVEN TCHILL is this inconsistent.

And Penguin Power also wanted GR gone in 2772, 2775

Remember, these were the two strongest town players -- stronger than me, TBG, or Ank -- and they were both nightkilled because of their play to some extent (with Flavor Leaf also being a TPR, but one among three claimed TPRs--and Penguin Power was killed OVER TPRs because of his play)

So instead of wondering "what if I throw the game by lynching Vax" -- first of all, this is impossible. And second of all, how do you survive the graveyard when EVERY MASON HAS SAID GR IS SCUM

Tchill, Wave, Flavor Leaf, Hopkirk... ALL of them said GR was scum.

READ THE OTHER STRONG PLAYERS. Read the people who ACTUALLY SOLVED THIS GAME.

GR will keep parroting Ank's argument that I'm confbiased, but remember, she doesn't need to make that argument to the masons, because she killed them.

Also remember you do not need to feel like you are simply "sheeping the dead" -- Flavor Leaf's case, that GR has been wishy washy this game and has reads that are incoherent and inconsistent from a town POV--has grown DRAMATICALLY stronger since Flavor Leaf was killed. ctrl+f "Creature" in GR's iso on pages 2 or 3... it is a MESS. This is not scum-hunting. This is tailoring your reads to the needs of the day's lynch. This is as close as GR gets to flailing.

[Krazy]

GR: "Your argument that I'm scum is based entirely off NKA! That's wifom!"

Ank: "Based on NKA, GR must be town!"

<--this entire game

GR does not kill me as scum ever. She has to discredit me otherwise she gets lynched.

The core of my argument is entirely based on play. The texcat progression and the Creature progression are both scum flip flopping. Her interactions with Gamma are fake distancing. But I've said this so many times at this point that I've had to go into 'lurk mode' because clearly you stopped caring what I have to say about 5 wallposts ago. Look at how YOU are responding to me and tell me that GR kills me over Wave. The more I say the more you buckle down.

[Krazy]

GR keeps FLAT OUT LYING about how she plays scum.

"I would never bus my last ally as scum!"

viewtopic.php?p=7837610#p7837610 <-- setting up a bus on her only ally
viewtopic.php?p=7859297#p7859297 <-- bussing her only ally

There is no reason for GR to say she would never bus when she KNOWS she busses here. GR is a scum carry and she absolutely will bus her last buddy if it means winning the game. We have no investigative. Towncred is way more important than whoever her buddy is. And scum absolutely crossbus in a scenario with no investigatives.

GR is not scumhunting, she is parroting your views Ank, to make it seem like she's scumhunting. Town GR also does not keep scumhunting after day 5. She is only doing that because that's what you think town should be doing. If she was town, GR would be basically playing this dayphase like me--totally locked on to her top read. The appearance of scumhunting is pure theater, and it is GR's specialty skill as scum. She is an artist. This is basically her magnum opus at this point. She is playing the way you think town is supposed to play because you have said that's the way you think town is supposed to play, not the way SHE plays town. GR plays town like I play town, kinda. That's why I know this is not town GR lol.

Vax never scumhunts, he just reads 20% of the thread and then is either right or wrong. His thought process reads as fake because he goes primarily off his instincts on which arguments or positions read the most fake in the moment. It is actually scummier for Vax's thought process to make sense. That doesn't mean he's town, but he's not actively lying every other post like GR.

Now I need to go back to lurk mode because I'm never going to convince you and somehow have to keep twiddling my thumbs until the rest of the town decides to grace us with their presence.

[Krazy]

What am I supposed to talk with you about?

[Krazy]

I will seriously send cookies irl to anyone who pushes through gr today

Please Ank I am literally begging you. I will sheep you the rest of the game if you just give me gr.

[Krazy]

For the love of god someone hammer before i irl die of an aneuryism

[Krazy]

Dear god Ircher isn't going to process the flip until rl tomorrow morning

So much for me getting any sleep tonight

This is going to be like the longest twilight. Well not as bad as that Espeonage game but still long

[Krazy]

One claimed, other refused to claim.

Is it stupid to townread both of them of that?

To be honest I mostly just really liked 5754. I don't think there was any other point this game where I felt like someone perfectly expressed my own views in a clearer manner than I did.

[Krazy]

There is where I'm basically at regardless of flip color here:

Townside
Mylo -- + was pushed by tex
+ votes consistently regardless of alignment
+ didn't lurk out texcat hammer

TBG -- + was L-1'd by tex
+ joined wheme over pp
+ led tex cfd
? I never bothered to meta because I've been judging him town purely on play this game
- joined ss counter-wagon during tex cfd
-he himself explains he tend to be "too towny" as scum

Creature -- +I like 5754
+don't understand why scum creature does weird stuff with texcat l-1
+meta bs
?some of his vote choices simply confound me regardless of alignment
-flip flop on sky slot over the course of the game bothers me a little bit

townlean

Ank -- +I mostly want to believe this is town because if it is scum I will feel physical pain when this game is over
+scum ank tends to be a little more chill
?ow personality conflict
-I never understood why she was defending GR

Weaker townlean

Sky -- +Liked the texcat l2
+there was some other meta bs that made me think this was town sky. something about when/why she unvotes. as scum she tends to only unvote at the very start and then never takes time to reassess. as town she does. something like that. it's probably bs
+davesaz replaceout wifom (but I have wondered whether he might have thrown out the sig just to overcompensate for a "I don't like rolling scum" replace out)
-Haven't liked sky going hardlurk since Gamma died (Sky tends to implode when she runs out of buddies)
-Don't love her progression on GR slot regardless of how that flips

??? block

Vax -- ? I don't know how to read vax and that scares me
? impossible to meta because his scum games are like really different than this in circumstance. In general scum vax is not this ballsy with busses but maybe he's just gotten a lot better or was being coached by a stronger player?
? he could be scum because he hasn't solved the game yet but maybe my expectations after the supp game are unrealistically high

[Krazy]

I have meta'd everyone except TBG at this point.

[Krazy]

@Ank, If you are scum you decided going into this game to model your play on Police Academy 1. It is kinda hard to play around that level of dedication. If that was your plan, mfw it works this well

Town Ank Model (if scum what she was modeling her play this game on to play around a meta argument): viewtopic.php?t=76042&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Scum Ank Model #1: viewtopic.php?t=76536&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Occam's razor says you're probably town if you kept it only to these two games.

That being said I don't think I ever found somewhere that you hard defend someone this much. Maybe it's there somewhere, I didn't go through literally every game, just enough to get a grip on you.

I did for a while wonder whether you played up the request for a PT just so that people would see that you do that as town but not as scum, but that is like a crazy level of dedication to playing around a meta case on you.

[Krazy]

VOTE: Android

Also, I kinda feel like texcat doesn't bus here.

[Krazy]

Yeah this was basically mountainous. After some other games ended like this I realized GR could actually be the last scum. That is when I really started losing ky nind. I considered fake claiking cop every day for this weekend just to push it through.

Still my favorite game on this site, just wish scum hadn't killed tchill so we could have ended the game with poetic beauty by lynching the vengeful and having him shoot last scum.

Golden Robster your play this game was still brilliant and it was an honor going up against your scum game.

[Krazy]

Texcat cfd was just the best thing ever and as tilted as I got at points afterward I was unwillimg to tilteplace out from this game when I could basically taste the win.

Sorry for losing my cool with you a few times ank

[Krazy]

I might be complaining but I felt like four scum felt a bit small to be honest; maybe I'm just complaining but yeah.

I think in mountainous masons are supposed to be equal in count to the scum. 4 man scum team vs 2 masons, 1 IC, 1 FN+neighbor/vengeful + 1 UB is 4 vs 5. Scum had 2 UBs and 1 rolecop but also an enabler (negative util). I can definitely see why this would be passed (strong scum PRs and the UB does not start as a 'mason') but in 25 players I do agree this is a pretty steep mountain to climb.

I'm sure mastina will come and explain why mathmatically this is a balanced setup tho, and she'll probably be right. Compared to other setups that have been approved this is relatively consistent with site meta if nothing else.

[Krazy]

I have to assume GR was not assuming that Tchill would flip 'mason' as otherwise I'm pretty sure she busses texcat.

To be honest I don't feel super bad about mislynching Dunn and KK, but I feel a little silly for so dramatically misjudging the size of Tchill's epeen.

@Ircher, you can also release the Krazy PT

even though almost all of it made it into the game by this point except for a few posts of me just rambling to myself about GR.

[Krazy]

>GR unvote/revote on wheme was pure theater (there's another game I could link where I saw this from scum and it seriously pinged me seeing it from GR here)
>Gamma said "you really are maf" about Wheme which town never says
>Texcat complained about power gamers but didn't specify who, which implied you had a buddy within JJD/GR since they were the power gamers

Was wrong about Dunn but it's always tricky sorting hard defenses of people that flip scum. If he had stuck with "Wheme is town" I would have believed it more but instead he went on this "if he's scum we'll get him later" thing which messed up my townread

[Krazy]

I was serious when I said PP and Flavor Leaf were the real carries here, since it is WAY easier for someone like me to solve the game with at least one red flip. Day 2 red flip out of 25 players, even with two busses, is still really impressive and the early game town played really well.

I don't get why people who are lost don't sheep the dead more. If PP and Flavor Leaf are the ones who caught Wheme, and they both says GR is scum...

[Krazy]

Golden Robster's scum play this game was simply brilliant, definitely one of the strongest scum players I have seen.