SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE

[TehBrawlGuy]

I give it a big fat 1.

idk if your "1" is really that big tbh

[TehBrawlGuy]

T_T

How do you know the truth?

my role is wang swinger

i can check one person each day

at night I can target someone and swing my wang at them - whoever's is smaller dies

[TehBrawlGuy]

anyway help me sort the bolded players who I haven't played with in a while/ever

1. TehBrawlGuy
2. Taly
3. Punreader

4. MariaR
5. DeasVail
6. Espeonage
7. Dunnstral
8. ActionDan

9. the worst
10. TwoInAMillion
11. Shoshin

12. Fire Assassin
13. ReubenWasFine
14. Chara

15. Srceenplay

16. Vaxkiller
17. PenguinPower

18. NicoRobin

[TehBrawlGuy]

at night I can target someone and swing my wang at them - whoever's is smaller dies

and you have no idea waht that means?

it means don't get too cocky

[TehBrawlGuy]

anyway help me sort the bolded players who I haven't played with in a while/ever
3. Punreader

You've played with me? This is news to me.

yeah don't you remem-

regarding Cheet's roleclaim

I should clarify I am not in fact

the scummer

Cheetory.

fuck

[TehBrawlGuy]

For the record, I highly suggest we do not claim the scummer our role is based off of. Set-ups in this style often have things that operate based on role identities.

[TehBrawlGuy]

i'm pretty sure that's not what nico's doing, but there is something to be said for attempting to pseudolynch today instead of going into d2 mostly blind, especially since the mafia are likely to give themselves decent numbers

[TehBrawlGuy]

2)

TehBrawlGuy

, where's your head at? D: You posted but I don't know what to conclude from it.

disagree that pun's claim should be viewed as towny - BP is a very easy falseclaim to make, especially conditional where nobody can shoot safely to check it. I still read him as Town on tone, but I think giving him townpoints for the claim is bad logic.

espeonage town tone

fire scums

maria town for 126/127

@dunn and espeonage: do you just need him to be higher/lower than an average, or a certain mark? because we as a town could give him all 0s or all 10s to guarantee one of you gets the power

[TehBrawlGuy]

Also:

disagree that pun's claim should be viewed as towny - BP is a very easy falseclaim to make, especially conditional where nobody can shoot safely to check it. I still read him as Town on tone, but I think giving him townpoints for the claim is bad logic.

Tonereads without meta or defined reasoning does not look like strong logic to me, either.

And if the claim shouldn't be viewed as towny - which is not the sole reason of my townread there at this point - then what's your take on it?

I get the point you're trying to make here, but it's an awful strawman to say that a tone read, which is explicitly a non-logical gut based reaction "isn't strong logic". It's not strong /or/ weak logic because it's inherently on a different axis. It's like going to a restaurant and complaining they don't serve good Chinese food there. Solid complaint at a Chinese place, but pretty misleading if you went to an Italian one.

My take on it, as is my take on most early claims, is that I don't really care. I could give you 5 reasons town!pun makes that claim and 5 reasons scum!pun makes it, but it's all baseless speculation.
From my experience, people like to read roles and claims a lot more than players (see also: some of the chatter on espe/dunn), and it's a mistake early in the game. Shelve the claims, develop reads on actual play.

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

That's just a mislynch though? I don't get why you're opposed to this. Yes, if we hit the wrong target, someone Town dies, because that's how lynches work - and we're not usually shy about lynching. I've been thinking about it more, and I'm strongly in favor of having two pseudo-lynches today. If we don't do that, I'd bet dollars to donuts Scum rank people weirdly to fuck with the numbers behind the scenes. The reasons for doing it to save another scummate are clear, but they also benefit from keeping someone Town alive who should've died to the ranking, because they'll enter D2 as mislynch bait.


In other news, Vax's recent prodge post bothers me. It's jokingly LAMIST, so you can't call it out as being LAMIST, but writing it that way obscures natural tone completely which is beneficial mainly if he's Scum. Also, generally, I feel like I see Scum make longer prodge posts rather than just posting "prodge" or w/e because they're afraid of being called out.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'll probably make a longer post later but here are my brief thoughts:

lmao @ vax wanting to kill me for the wang claim - I'm not even mad, it's too funny. Vax is probably Town because I think that's a crazy push for Scum to make.

I definitely see resisting the pseudolynch as a ProScum play - PP and Taly both get shade for this.

Chara's townread on me doesn't seem genuine - they've given themselves an "out" to it every time they've posted and I find it weird that I've consistently sat at lukewarm town without moving.

previewedit: PP's last post makes me feel that PP v Taly is not TvT. Dunno which one is the Scum yet, though. I'll catch that on re-read.

[TehBrawlGuy]

My take on it, as is my take on most early claims, is that I don't really care. I could give you 5 reasons town!pun makes that claim and 5 reasons scum!pun makes it, but it's all baseless speculation.
From my experience, people like to read roles and claims a lot more than players (see also: some of the chatter on espe/dunn), and it's a mistake early in the game. Shelve the claims, develop reads on actual play.

Meh... Do you have a read on their play, then?

I just don't get tonereads, as in, I'm not someone who uses tone to gamesolve, usually.

I'm very case-style, and that doesn't merge too well with current site-meta.

I'm having second thoughts on

Fire

. I didn't like that they minimized me trying to interact with them. I can't tell if he was playstyle clashing with me or overtly trying to dismiss me. He could've easily responded to my points, and instead he found reasons to state that I wasn't oriented to gamesolving. 84 - 87 and 88

I also don't know what to think about

Espe

and

Dunn's

claims at the moment. I don't have a strong read on either of them, and coincidentally, I'm leaning to the suspicion side for

Vax

and

Fire

.

Vax

because he's just drifting in the game and fluffposting; like an active lurker.

Fire

because I'm afraid I'm townreading scum, and he would be the first person I'd rethink.

If I had to number based off reads, I'd put them all near mid-range, but I don't think that's optimal.

How do you feel about these 4?

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

That's just a mislynch though? I don't get why you're opposed to this. Yes, if we hit the wrong target, someone Town dies, because that's how lynches work - and we're not usually shy about lynching. I've been thinking about it more, and I'm strongly in favor of having two pseudo-lynches today. If we don't do that, I'd bet dollars to donuts Scum rank people weirdly to fuck with the numbers behind the scenes. The reasons for doing it to save another scummate are clear, but they also benefit from keeping someone Town alive who should've died to the ranking, because they'll enter D2 as mislynch bait.

I'd rather not mislynch at all. If I were going to put someone at a 0 as a scumread, I'd be weary on whether everyone's doing it or not.

Is there anyone that has warranted a 0 from you, yet?

Fire: pings me, but I can't tell if that's because badtown or scum. I'm leaning badtown.
Espe: Has been pretty content to talk a lot about his role and the mechanics, but hasn't chimed in on much else. I consider focusing on that kind of role-centric discussion and avoiding giving any stances a pretty universal scumtell.
Dunn: Not a lot to go on, but seems genuine in the content he has. town lean
Vax: Town, as stated in my last post.


I get that you'd rather not mislynch, but surely you see that putting the two upcoming deaths in Town's hands completely is better than leaving it influenced by Scum? We should all just agree to 0 the top two vote getters for today. I'm willing to go on record agreeing to it now. I'll 0 the two top vote getters today.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Re-read PP and I don't see anything that jumps out to me as particularly scummy, and I'm not going to re-read all of Taly's posts. I still think it's not TvT though.

I suppose if I'm going to endorse pseudolynches I should vote. VOTE: espe.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm pretty confused how you think " I still read him as Town on tone, but I think giving him townpoints for the claim is bad logic." is vague and non-committal. It literally contains the phrase "I still read him as Town".

Scum can fuck with the numbers by giving one generally-seen-as-scummy person high numbers, for one. Say that by the end of the day, I'm generally suspected. If I'm Scum, then obviously my mates will rank me highly to prevent me from dying. If I'm Town, then they can still do that so people ask "How did Brawl live?" at the start of D2. People keep talking about "catching scum" via the rankings, but the voting is all private, so there's not any way to actually do that. Unless they're careless and make a shitty fake ranking instead of a buyable one, there's not really any way for us to catch them doing anything.

Not only this, but in 285, he implies that those who disagree with the pseudolynch idea are scum because pseudolynching is pro-town

because he said so and isn't listening to what other people might have to say about it.

This is a pretty big misrep, especially the part in bold. If I strongly believe that pseudolynching is in the Town's favor, then naturally, I think Scum would want to push against it, because it's to their advantage if we don't pseudolynch.

I've given you the mechanical reasons why pseudolynching is good. It's not like I just came off my mountain to preach it for no reason. Implying that I'm not listening to what anyone else says about it is disingenuous, especially when the primary arguments in rebuttal have been fairly weak, such as "we'll (somehow) catch scum in rankings!" and "i don't want to mislynch townies".

[TehBrawlGuy]

someone who isn't me, give me your thoughts on 307

I feel like it's pretty blatantly misreppy with the things I addressed in my last post, and that pings me pretty hard, but there's an amount of internal frustration/omgus there that makes biased. I'm trying to sort if this is town!dv getting overeager and viewing all my posts under his own tinted lens, or if it's scum!dv just trying to bury me

I'm leaning towards the first, but I'd like an outside opinion

[TehBrawlGuy]

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

[TehBrawlGuy]

yeah okay fine Taly is probably town whatever

is this a towntell for taly or something?

give me your thoughts on 307 and 308

[TehBrawlGuy]

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

Is this your way of trying to downplay my intentions, again?

I sincerely don't understand what you're trying to get at with this. Clarify?

[TehBrawlGuy]

yeah okay fine Taly is probably town whatever

is this a towntell for taly or something?

give me your thoughts on 307 and 308

1) going by the last few pages he's more likely to be town than he usually is yeah
2) what about 307/308?

sorry, 307 & 309

specifically w/r/t how much I feel like DV misreps me in 307 for his points that I talk about in 309. I don't really have a problem with his other points - the first half of his post is fine.

[TehBrawlGuy]

(i'm going to do this as a string of posts instead of a wall because walls suck)

lmao @ vax wanting to kill me for the wang claim - I'm not even mad, it's too funny. Vax is probably Town because I think that's a crazy push for Scum to make.

1)

You say

Vax

is town, but instead of telling him why his push on you is wrong, you laugh at his reasons. Disingenuous and clearly not oriented into gamesolving.

2)

Your reason for his push being bad is that it's crazy for scum to push it? What? It just sounds like you're injecting your own bias to strengthen your means of discrediting him.

Do you know for a fact scum would be crazy to push you? Because you're pretty blatantly anti-town with the reason posts.

Asking me whether or not I "know for a fact" in Mafia is pretty unreasonable. Almost nothing is ever known for a fact in this game.

IDK if it's a reading comprehension failure here or a strawman, but I never said Scum would be crazy to push me. I think Scum would be crazy to push me

on the basis of the wang claim

and I think I said that pretty clearly.

[TehBrawlGuy]

At what point have I EVER gone with the idea that a psuedolynch option is bad? What the hell? I've been voting and ranking and giving suggestions of how town should work together, and this comment heavily implies you're not even listening to it.

Here?

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

In the next post you do say that you're "down for voting and ranking", but the above quote seems to imply that you're not down to actually pseudolynch based on the results, does it not?

[TehBrawlGuy]

If you think using poorly-defined buzzwords ... accurately display your thought process ...

then you need to rethink your approach here, critically.

Must be great to cast as much WIFOM as possible for you, right? Helps that scum-wincon.

Oh, I see, using terminology is bad, but using WIFOM (incorrectly, I might add) in the

same post

is cool?

Being condescending is the last thing I'm intending right now

OK, good, I'm gla-

Have you READ my posts?

oh

[TehBrawlGuy]

How do I know scum doesn't want to give someone an all 0?

And why are you voting based on who gets votes by others? What if it was one of your poorly articulated townreads? Your posting is noncomittal and easy to flow with.

I feel like you don't get the point I'm making.

Say at the end of the day, the players that are generally suspected are A, B, and C, and each gets very low ranking points. If they're close enough, Scum can decide which of the three they want to save, and give that player higher ranking points, thereby choosing which set of {A, B} {B, C} {A, C} dies and flips. Hell, if the field's close enough, they could boost all three, and we might see a {D, E} flip, which is obviously awful. I would much rather we just all agree, to, say, give {A, C} 0s and ensure they flip. Now do you see why a mass 0-ing limits the power of what Scum can do by coordinating their own rankings? Scum absolutely are going to coordinate amongst themselves - it's naive to think otherwise. That's why we need to coordinate amongst the Town to limit their influence.

I'm ranking based on votes because I feel the loss of personal agency is worth giving votes a tangible value. Votes were worthless before I did that, and now they have a tangible value in controlling my rankings. If more players did that, votes would become more important, and we could use that to scumhunt/gamesolve/whatever. Enough players do it, and we have a psuedolynch.

Also, there's no reason to call my townreads "poorly articulated" there unless you're trying to be condescending or grandstand, and neither is helpful or necessary.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Re-read PP and I don't see anything that jumps out to me as particularly scummy, and I'm not going to re-read all of Taly's posts. I still think it's not TvT though.

I suppose if I'm going to endorse pseudolynches I should vote. VOTE: espe.

So Why espeonage?

Espe: Has been pretty content to talk a lot about his role and the mechanics, but hasn't chimed in on much else. I consider focusing on that kind of role-centric discussion and avoiding giving any stances a pretty universal scumtell.

Did you miss this or did you want more clarification?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Also, Taly, if you have difficulty understanding any of my points, you can just ask for clarification, I don't mind that. I mind you assuming something incorrectly and running with it like it's gospel way more.

[TehBrawlGuy]

DV's case feels like the only decent thing in the thread, but my support of that will get taken with a grain of salt because the slot just 'voted' for me.

actually, Dunn, you can add this on to that

town!espe acknowledges that I'm voting him, but votes me/pushes me/does anything other than vaguely support DV, because I'm apparently his top scumread
scum!espe is more concerned with not rocking the boat and seeming OMGUS-y, and doesn't want to disrupt or interject into DV's case on me in the hopes it'll gain traction more organically

[TehBrawlGuy]

You are not my top scumread. ?_?

who is then? Reuban?

[TehBrawlGuy]

You reread, and then weakly, weakly say that PP isn't scummy. But his post is what made you think this wasn't TvT?

this. Brawl's posts make me want to townread him on gut but his stance of Penguin/Taly just doesn't make sense to me.
what can you point to that tells you it's not TvT if not someone acting in a way that makes them seem not town?

worst: i know you said you wanted to talk about Taly, but if you like my reasoning, i'm not sure if there's anything more to talk about. :>
he's not locktown, but while i don't agree with everything he says, the points being picked at for Taly-scum don't really resonate with me either.

This is kind of a vague, shitty answer, because my initial read on it was just that the interaction between them felt off in a way that TvT isn't usually.

Going back and looking, this pings me the hardest:

This reads like an excuse.

Nobody's stopping you from voting right now, faux votes are legal.

And have no impact, so are worthless.

Then why are you even bringing up votes? If you think there's no point, you're not adding to the discussion by saying

"I want this, but we can't have this"

And if you think votes are worthless, I'm voting you, and is it not catching your attention?

but all the interactions between them seem aggressive, but only just barely, in a way that genuine interactions aren't. I'm having a hard time parsing what the reason for that is, specifically, though. It could be one of them is Scum, and that's why it feels off, it could be both and they're bussing, but I feel reasonably sure that they're not both Town.

[TehBrawlGuy]

oops I fucked up the quote, here it is unfucked

This reads like an excuse.

Nobody's stopping you from voting right now, faux votes are legal.

And have no impact, so are worthless.

Then why are you even bringing up votes? If you think there's no point, you're not adding to the discussion by saying

"I want this, but we can't have this"

And if you think votes are worthless, I'm voting you, and is it not catching your attention?

I said I wanted a system to vote, not the standard voting system. I don't really care that you have voted me since it means naught.

[TehBrawlGuy]

You reread, and then weakly, weakly say that PP isn't scummy. But his post is what made you think this wasn't TvT?

this. Brawl's posts make me want to townread him on gut but his stance of Penguin/Taly just doesn't make sense to me.
what can you point to that tells you it's not TvT if not someone acting in a way that makes them seem not town?

worst: i know you said you wanted to talk about Taly, but if you like my reasoning, i'm not sure if there's anything more to talk about. :>
he's not locktown, but while i don't agree with everything he says, the points being picked at for Taly-scum don't really resonate with me either.

This is kind of a vague, shitty answer, because my initial read on it was just that the interaction between them felt off in a way that TvT isn't usually.

Going back and looking, this pings me the hardest:

This reads like an excuse.

Nobody's stopping you from voting right now, faux votes are legal.

And have no impact, so are worthless.

Then why are you even bringing up votes? If you think there's no point, you're not adding to the discussion by saying

"I want this, but we can't have this"

And if you think votes are worthless, I'm voting you, and is it not catching your attention?

but all the interactions between them seem aggressive, but only just barely, in a way that genuine interactions aren't. I'm having a hard time parsing what the reason for that is, specifically, though. It could be one of them is Scum, and that's why it feels off, it could be both and they're bussing, but I feel reasonably sure that they're not both Town.

giving this guy a 0 as his death gives me info I want and

I dislike this post

y tho

[TehBrawlGuy]

Trying to chainsaw a lynch. You think the post is SvT but don't make a solid stance on what one is what gives you options I dislike that. You basically spent the whole post explaining why it

could

be TvS but never took a stance on what one you think it is giving town the option to jump in and do the work for you

other than the fact that that's not what chainsaw means I guess that's an alright point

i do kind of resent that there are players absolutely coasting by without much stated towards anyone, but "at least one one of taly/pp is scum, not sure which one" is leaving me too many options

like if I wanted to leave myself options I would've never said anything about either of them but *shrug*

[TehBrawlGuy]

VOTE: pp

I buy the claim, I just think he's lying about the alignment of it. That's a straight-on perfect Scum role.

[TehBrawlGuy]

part of the reason I don't think town!pp makes that claim is that he's one of the candidates for lynch and there are pretty much no good outcomes

we rank him highly to give him the BP - now we have an uncheckable, unvigable scumspect

we buy the claim and rank him low - he survives with a useless role and makes the pool for town PRs to hide in smaller, we potentially mislynch better roles today

scum!pp just cares about surviving, and if we happen to rank him highly all the better

[TehBrawlGuy]

You guys blown the thread up during my drive today.

Probably to tired to read and absorb anything.

Do we all want to post how we are voting before end of day?
It might help us figure out who is getting offed at night before it happens.

I think this is only a good idea if we agree to two lynches. If we don't fully commit to a pseudolynch, it hurts more than it helps.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Claim doesn't =ali
look fhr the way they claimed that's what's important not the claim itself.
Also I hope I'm not the only one openly lying about rankings here

i'm aware, but when someone I already had reservations about claims a perfect scum role, that definitely does not ease my suspicions
(ftr, though I think the circumstances around the claim make it even worse, as I laid out in my other post)

[TehBrawlGuy]

You guys blown the thread up during my drive today.

Probably to tired to read and absorb anything.

Do we all want to post how we are voting before end of day?
It might help us figure out who is getting offed at night before it happens.

I think this is only a good idea if we agree to two lynches. If we don't fully commit to a pseudolynch, it hurts more than it helps.

I don’t see how.
If anything it shows us what direction we are heading going into night.
That’s a lot better than going blind and it forces some accountability.

How does it force any accountability? There's nothing preventing the scumteam from just lying about their actual rankings.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Eh PP is prob town
my rankings aren't gonna be 100% honest because I refuse to believe scum doesn't have a power to influence votes
Pedit: Why would I care about his role

because it exists? but if you think he's town, you answered my question already.


pedit: what does knowing who'll die at night help us do?

it helps the scumteam strategically rank to try and kill off the players they want, rather than who the town wants

it absolutely does not help the town at all unless we vote in a strong enough bloc to prevent scum from altering the results

[TehBrawlGuy]

i like Brawl for town again. :>

pedit: i like Brawl for town x2 for the way he answered that, but also i wanted Srceen to have to answer before you did for him.

i know, but I care less about your read on Screen than I do very forcefully making sure Town does not fuck this up by giving too much info to Scum (sorry!)

[TehBrawlGuy]

Fire, your problem with Taly is he's asking surface-level questions he should know the answer to. my answer is i've seen Taly ask more questions than necessary as town so it isn't going into my read of him. what's the problem?

pedit: obvious, but i agree with Brawl. was scumreading Penguin before the claim. even if i entirely disregard it, i still scumread him.

Just that you told me you saw genuine posts by him and than I ask you for them and you tell me that "anything can be faked" was mildly annoying to tell you the truth.

want to interject here - i think the discrepancy came up here because you used the absolute of "what looks like it can't be fake" vs "what looks like it's not fake"

those sound similar but have very different answers

[TehBrawlGuy]

Thank you brawlguy.
I feel like I should have things I want to talk to you about, but I really don't right now.
I guess I can tell you I am not sure I agree with your analysis of Penguin but I don't have any strong reasons why just feelings of uncertainty about it.

talk to me about why you want to post our rankings before EoD and what your thoughts on pseudolynch are

[TehBrawlGuy]

Yeaaahhhh, I've lost my scumread on TehBrawlGuy.

Sorry Brawly

lol, you don't have to apologize, but you do have to tell me why the 180

[TehBrawlGuy]

How do I know scum doesn't want to give someone an all 0?

And why are you voting based on who gets votes by others? What if it was one of your poorly articulated townreads? Your posting is noncomittal and easy to flow with.

I feel like you don't get the point I'm making.

Say at the end of the day, the players that are generally suspected are A, B, and C, and each gets very low ranking points. If they're close enough, Scum can decide which of the three they want to save, and give that player higher ranking points, thereby choosing which set of {A, B} {B, C} {A, C} dies and flips. Hell, if the field's close enough, they could boost all three, and we might see a {D, E} flip, which is obviously awful. I would much rather we just all agree, to, say, give {A, C} 0s and ensure they flip. Now do you see why a mass 0-ing limits the power of what Scum can do by coordinating their own rankings? Scum absolutely are going to coordinate amongst themselves - it's naive to think otherwise. That's why we need to coordinate amongst the Town to limit their influence.

I'm ranking based on votes because I feel the loss of personal agency is worth giving votes a tangible value. Votes were worthless before I did that, and now they have a tangible value in controlling my rankings. If more players did that, votes would become more important, and we could use that to scumhunt/gamesolve/whatever. Enough players do it, and we have a psuedolynch.

Also, there's no reason to call my townreads "poorly articulated" there unless you're trying to be condescending or grandstand, and neither is helpful or necessary.

I’m not sure of the math but someone can figure it out, right?

Even if we all agree on who to give zeros to. Say we pick scum. If scum gave themselves 10 instead of zeros will that put them over the 1’s and 2’s?

It depends on how many Scum we have and how unified we are in giving 1s. If we have 3 Scum, each one can get 20 points from the other scummates, which is enough to beat a slew of 1s. We could theoretically defeat that by agreeing to rank everyone besides the 0s by the playerlist (i.e. 10s to the people below you, 9 to the person below them), but that makes our rankings entirely known and opens us up to role-based shenanigans.

Personally, I would endorse giving out all 0s to two players and making your other votes more or less random. It's very unlikely Scum can save anyone from that. The avg. points from other players each player would have if we did a full randomization is about 90, which is way more than Scum can swing. The odds anyone drops below 20 are pretty low.

[TehBrawlGuy]

wait this is an 18p game I dont know why I was assuming 3 scum, 4 is way more likely

if we give a lot of 1s and 2s to the same person, 30 scum points can absolutely beat that

[TehBrawlGuy]

That actually gives us a situation where dissonance is actually good for us.

Because if everyone has a solid mix other than some universal reads given 0s. We end up with it very likely those two die. I am however still worried about a vote swapper or set one players average to five.

:/ need to think.

Whoa It's like I said this yet only now people understand

where did you say any of this?

[TehBrawlGuy]

and you may as well include 1s as an additional 0 to use, if you're doing something like this at all.
and there are 4 scum, they have 40 points max with which to elevate a player of their choice, not 30.

Screen was talking about how many points they could swing to a fellow scummate if we agreed to give them all 0s. They can swing +30.

They'd get up to 40 points total, since everyone has to 10 themselves, but it's easiest to think about if you look at the total number of points given by other players since that lets you work at a base of 0.

Randoming or lying both accomplish obscuring our non 0s, so I endorse both plans.

[TehBrawlGuy]

basically, i think we're better served going in order of our reads whilst deciding on some players that definitely need to go. if someone dies outside of that, it means scum decided to kill them with rankings, and it also means that the player would probably have been mislynched anyway.
if we go random after deciding on a few universal zeroes, it means scum could theoretically kill anyone they liked.
like me, for example. :> or any other more helpful player who's actually good at mafia.

Here's are two pretty simple scenario where that's a bad idea. Say we have a mafia member in our 0s. Scum save him, and someone else who was 1s/2s die. We react appropriately, and PL the mafia member D2.
This is just straight worse than offing the mafia member D1.

In the other scenario, assume Scum save a town 0 instead. If we PL him D2, then we get to D3 with 3 Town deaths on our hands.

We definitely don't want to stack 1s and 2s on the same people.

[TehBrawlGuy]

TBG really needs to stop talking shop and get back to scumhunting.

Cool, can we start with you?

I hereby declare anyone after this point who makes a post purely mechanical in nature will provoke my eternal ire and I will campaign for their death forevermore.

Straight up throttling discussion on mechanics is absolutely not pro-town in nature, especially when the players involved have already established scum reads. If and when we see flips we don't want to see after today, I'll be looking at you.

I could maybe buy that you're just super interested in scumhunting over mechanics discussion if it wasn't for the end day vote and lack of any engagement with me w/r/t my reads. As it stands it just looks to me like you're attempting to powerwolf your way into silencing discussion that helps the Town.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Votecount 1.3

Espeonage

(2): the worst, TehBrawlGuy

Fire Assassin

(1): NicoRobin

PenguinPower

(1): Taly

Shoshin

(1): Srceenplay

Taly

(1): PenguinPower

the worst

(1): Shoshin

Not Voting

(11): Punreader, MariaR, DeasVail, Espeonage, Dunnstral, ActionDan, TwoInAMillion, Fire Assassin, ReubenWasFine, Chara, Vaxkiller

--

End The Day

(1): Nahdia
(10 needed for majority)

Deadline in (expired on 2018-06-17 08:11:00)

Prodding ReubenWasFine and Vaxkiller.

@mod, i voted PP a while back

VOTE: pp

I buy the claim, I just think he's lying about the alignment of it. That's a straight-on perfect Scum role.

[TehBrawlGuy]

TBG really needs to stop talking shop and get back to scumhunting.

Cool, can we start with you?

I hereby declare anyone after this point who makes a post purely mechanical in nature will provoke my eternal ire and I will campaign for their death forevermore.

Straight up throttling discussion on mechanics is absolutely not pro-town in nature, especially when the players involved have already established scum reads. If and when we see flips we don't want to see after today, I'll be looking at you.

I could maybe buy that you're just super interested in scumhunting over mechanics discussion if it wasn't for the end day vote and lack of any engagement with me w/r/t my reads. As it stands it just looks to me like you're attempting to powerwolf your way into silencing discussion that helps the Town.

Color me exquisitely doubtful that this discussion helps town. Straight up creating a mechanics smokescreen to let scum contribute to the tthread without ruffling feathers is not only not pro-town, it's actually very much anti-town. So stop doing it. I've scanned over what you're discussing; it's fucking stupid. No lying about reads. No randoming your slot ratings. Follow your reads, publish your list day 2, lynch people who shouldn't have survived. We're playing mafia, not taking a math test.

Given that you're likening looking at the ranking system to taking a math test, I find it ironic that you're calling anything fucking stupid. I also think it's absolutely bullshit that mechanics discussion doesn't ruffle feathers. Look at how many people have wanted my head today partially because of that.

We can agree to disagree on how valuable the mechanics discussion is, but if I feel like I want to talk about it, I'm going to do it, and I encourage other players to do it. It absolutely helps me scumhunt. Hell, even here, your stubbornness actually reads pretty genuine, so I can buy your opener being Town and not just powerwolfing.

@thread:

thoughts on PP and Espe if you haven't given them recently?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Given your recent posts, I can actually see town-motivation behind you not giving a lot of information about your reads, and you being uncertain about Me/PP - even though I'm town, and a dichotomy D1 is really unhelpful here. While I think it's towny, I don't think we should lie or make our numbers randomized in any part of our list.

Town needs to congeal on lower numbers, but it is easy for scum to blend behind this plan. I do agree scum can overpower with numbers, but with accountability D2, don't you think it's far-fetched that scum would be so similar, if not the same as each other in ranking?

1)

Why do you think

PP

is most likely scum with his role?

2)

Nahdia

has disagreed with you BOTH on your plans for the day, and

PP's

alignment, but what makes you think they're town?

3)

Who would you recommend having as a 0 for the day?

4)

Stop with the WIFOM on

me/PP

. What about his posts ping you, and why are you uncertain of your read over me?

5)

How do you feel about the sudden surge of town-ish reads coming to you?[/spoiler]

read has actually given a way to force real accountability. We will force players to post a ranking list, but there's no accountability for posting a fake list. If Scum post a sensible rankings list D2, but actually submitted something else, we have no way to tell.

1) I feel like I already laid this one out. I disliked the interaction between you two, so I was on the lookout for Scum in the pairing. As far as the claim itself, I already made a post on that you can grab in my iso if you want
.
2) I talked about this already, too, but it's the stubbornness and tone in the reply to me I read as Town. Shoshin put it pretty well. The way Nahdia's coming at this is the way a genuinely convicted Townie does. I still think her points are wrong and AntiTown, so she could just be powerwolfing well, but Occam's Razor says Town is more likely, so weak Town read.

3) The people I've voted for - PP/Espe. Pine's not a bad policy 0 since almost all his content is fluff. Given that only two players are dying, though, I'm probably gonna toss my third 0 to someone unlikely to die to ramp up the chances PP/Espe die.

4) That's still not what WIFOM means, and no. I'm not going to suddenly abandon my opinion just because you say so. Again, I've already laid out what I feel on PP. If you have any specific questions, I'm happy to answer those, but I'm going to refer you to my iso if you ask big generalities I've already answered.
As for you, I don't see the genuine line of thought in your posts that others are seeing. I see mostly a scattering of easily answerable, obvious questions. The lack of comprehension behind your inquiries and extreme focus on quantity over quality both suggest a lack of genuine motivation to find Scum as Town, but make sense if you're Scum that a) just wants to be seen as useful and b) benefits from clogging up the thread and wasting our time. But, on the other hand, from the little I know of your meta, this is pretty standard, and most of the thread who know you better townread you, so I might be completely off base there. Either way, I have scummier people to hunt who I'm going to have an easier time persuading the Town on, so going after you is a poor use of my effort. Time will either lead me to think you're more town, or everyone else to think you're more scum, so I'm happy waiting until you sort better.

5) Nothing much, really. Relieved a bit. Basically, what should happen did happen, so there's not a lot to say on it. The points at my earlier posts were solid, the rest was bullshit, and I've been pretty helpful to Town since. I feel like all three of those are being generally acknowledged, so we're good.
What were you expecting me to say about this? I don't know what you're trying to get at.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Dammit I fucked up the first sentence. I wish i could edit.

First sentence should be "Nothing I've read has actually given a way to force real accountability."

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why are you claiming this instead of, you know, just putting a bullet in his head tonight?

[TehBrawlGuy]

So I just found who I'll give one of my 10s, and who I'll give one of my 0s

My confidence is this game has been somewhat rescued

PR / PP respectively or?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Dunn, I'd like an answer to this:

you can have a 4 though mariar

Why 4? Who's lower?

Nico can have a 1 for being useless, Vax can get a 0 for being my quest and being scummy anyway, other than that I don't know, and don't know if revealing a lot of #'s is even a good idea

Why is Maria a 4?

Because she's kind of scummy but not a 0 to me.

Want more? 4 is actually associated with death in japanese, because they sound similar. In this way, by giving MariaR a 4, I could have been implying that death is coming for her

omae wa mou shindeiru

anyway I'm pretty iffy on Pun's claim, but I see no reason to off him right now. He's leashed now that he's claimed, and in the event he's Town he'll either draw a RB every night or see some use, and both are beneficial. I might reconsider after his 11th hour claim. The sudden addition of a no N1 modifier is kind of weird, but actually makes a lot of sense given that we have an extra death today because of rankings.

[TehBrawlGuy]

also holy shit I want to point out that he's exactly the wang vigilante

its real guys

[TehBrawlGuy]

pun what did you think about me accidentally shitposting half your role lmao

[TehBrawlGuy]

He's leashed now that he's claimed, and in the event he's Town he'll either draw a RB every night or see some use, and both are beneficial. The sudden addition of a no N1 modifier is kind of weird, but actually makes a lot of sense given that we have an extra death today because of rankings.

No, the reason I can't kill N1 is altogether different and should be stupidly obvious.
Rankings are done

during

N1.
Rankings are assigned at the

end

of N1.

How can I kill someone ranked lower than me before we actually have rankings?
Obviously, the answer is I can't. My role PM doesn't

tell

me I can't; it is an obvious inference from the given game mechanic. (That won't stop me from trying, but I expect Errant to tell me it's not possible.)

No, that's not how the rankings work. I have absolutely no idea why you think that's the case.

MECHANIC INFORMATION:

- Day 1 is lynchless and will end in 14 days unless a majority of players vote to end the day early.
- Between Day 1 and Night 1, a Ranking Phase will take place, wherein players send their rankings of players in the game in a PM to me. The ranking values are as follows:

{10, 10, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0}

In short, 3 tens, 3 zeros, 2 fours, 2 fives, and 2 sixes. You can do this by sending me assigned point values or a ranking from top to bottom (10 to 0). Keep in mind that in accordance with SUPP guidelines, one of the tens is for yourself.
- All scores will be privately averaged and ranked. Ties will be resolved by # of 10s, # of 9s, and so on.
- The lowest two ranked players will immediately die at the end of the Ranking Phase.

Also, and I'm going to get a little bitchy here, so bear with me, how in the fuck did nobody else address this in the page since Pun made this post? I get that apparently the thread has something against mechanics, but holy shit you guys, there's one major difference between this and a standard game. How hard is it to keep track of that

one thing

? Some of you can criticize me for paying a lot of attention to mechanics, but at least I'm paying attention to them. Shit like this is the reason I do.

Anyway, onto the actual usefulness of this. I'm 99% this is Pun townslipping, or at least TP-slipping. Scum have daytalk, and I have to imagine they've been talking about rankings, so I'd wager they wouldn't make this mistake. I don't think vigilante-that-can't-shoot-N1-because-of-mechanics-except-actually-it-can makes it out of a Scum PT as an unprompted fakeclaim, but this line of events makes a lot of sense for town!pun.

Pun, I know you scumread me, but I s2g if you shoot me tonight after I reminded you you can shoot... It would be hilarious, true, but also I would hate you.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Nothing really changed rereading TBG's recent posts.

I'm starting to kinda like TBG honestly. his reactions have felt more genuine as the day has progressed and I think he's on the right track pretty much for the most part?

He's focused on mechanics sure but we have a heavily mechanically weighted d1 so I'm actually kinda feeling like that's fairly pro town.



Part of me wants to ask him for a reads list but also I hate reads lists but also were gonna be forced to do a compulsory one shortly so...... TBG can you sum up your current reads for me?

For the record, I'm against full reads lists as a general concept, because I think they're counterproductive. (until the game is small - <9p ish) They often quagmire into side topics about players not on the lynch block, and I'd rather keep my posting to things I actually want other players to focus on. When they're the norm, pestering people for reads lists is also a great way to seem Town without doing much. If you have specific questions that you want answered for whatever reason, fire away. Asking specific questions also helps me get a lens into where your mind is at.

[TehBrawlGuy]

TBG, update on your reads? Thoughts on Dunn/Maria?

I still think Dunn is town, both because I don't think he and Espe are scum together and I'm pretty sure Espe is Scum, and also because Dunn's early posting seemed to address both his role and scumhunting in good proportion. I wish he was doing more shit but meh.

Maria's openly advocating for lying and being mildly abrasive, which is pretty fearless if she's Scum but makes sense if she's Town, so probably Town.

[TehBrawlGuy]

actually on the note of lynch-block players, I really don't get Pine being pretty low on rankings. I weakly townread him. Most of his content is NAI and what there is seems to me like a townie who's just chilling waiting for the game to progress.

[TehBrawlGuy]

we're obligated to do rankings, but those don't clog up the thread and my rankings won't really be close to my reads tbh.

if you want a snippet of where my mind is at, it's not hard to get, both because I'm posting shit as I think it becomes relevant (my above posts contain 4 reads, for example) and because i'm here. Like, if you want to know where I'm at, you gotta ask me specific shit so I can talk to you about why you care and where you're at. If you're just asking me for reads, I can't calibrate my read on you from that, either.

[TehBrawlGuy]

but I feel like you've got a lot of content I haven't digested adequately and you've definitely applied more effort to this phase than I have >:

ok lemme do some work and I'll try and get back to you with some gear to talk about O7

Do you wanna ask me anything?

if you haven't digested my content, why would you ask me for more content that I think is less important adfksdfjsdfklsjdfslkdfj

I'm glad you realize in this post you need to go back and read because that would be what i'd tell you to do

Anything I ask you is best served for after you re-read my content and talk to me about it

[TehBrawlGuy]

Pun, I know you scumread me, but I s2g if you shoot me tonight after I reminded you you can shoot... It would be hilarious, true, but also I would hate you.

Actually, that was my plan until just now. I'll have to shoot someone else now.

I get that apparently the thread has something against mechanics, but holy shit you guys, there's one major difference between this and a standard game. How hard is it to keep track of that

one thing

?

This would be one of the reasons that the players using that one mechanic as an excuse to do nothing (namely, PenguinPower and Pine) are pun.

This game is not nearly as different from a normal game of mafia as they are pretending it to be. Their excuses for not generating content due to said mechanic are therefore nothing more than that: just excuses to not be held accountable for content early in the game. This would also be one of the reasons I consider you a punbuddy, since by your own logic, you should recognize that this:

I really don't get Pine being pretty low on rankings. I weakly townread him. Most of his content is NAI and what there is seems to me like a townie who's just chilling waiting for the game to progress.

...Is an invalid reason to townread him. There is no justification for chilling because

the game is already in progress

.

Pretending the game isn't in progress is a pun-oriented narrative because

as you yourself note

, there is only one difference between this game and a normal game. So players in this game should be...treating it as if it were a normal game; the players who thus are stating they aren't doing so are automatically more suspicious.

I think you draw a couple of wrong conclusions here. First off, although there's only one mechanical change, that doesn't mean the ramifications of it on the gamestate are simple. It means, among other things, that it's a lot harder to really be engaged in D1 because there aren't traditional wagons/voting. Second off, you assume that I wouldn't give this a pass on a normal D1 anyway. You are correct that by my logic, I think it's AntiTown to not contribute, but I don't think it's necessarily ProScum.

Basically, I don't think Pine's pretending the game's not in progress. I think he's chilling, waiting for more progress before he feels like contributing

[TehBrawlGuy]

Because I'm a nerd about data, here's a good way to look at mine. You can sort by player#, ranking#, and order I assigned the rankings.

Look at my rankings!

sorry -ep

I realize now that I fucked up and ranked espe/dunn against each other for their roles instead of vax/fire, so whoops.

[TehBrawlGuy]

would you say you townread those who you gave high scores to save from the lunch?

Love the spreadsheet btw I wish I was that clever/bored

-ish. I didn't have a super strong read on Pine, and Maria's only a bit stronger than his.

it actually didn't take me very long at all, because I've set up a lot of sheets in the past for more useful things than mafia. I can highly recommend them.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Feel free, but tbh when I say I can recommend them, I mean in general rather than for mafia specifically. I usually don't have enough concrete data to feel like using them for mafia.

[TehBrawlGuy]

speaking of mafia i should play the game

Were where all these people who scumread espeonage yesterday?

i mean I was here, saying we should lynch espe


i have some other thoughts obv but I want to save them for after we get all the rankings posted

[TehBrawlGuy]

Pine was not the NK, Pun claimed he shot him.

We don't know what happened to the NK.

[TehBrawlGuy]

BTW the fucking kills went AS PREDICTED

Whats going to happen tonight is this: Everyone is going to submit thier numbers and more than likely l

urkers/low content people/anyone who is being shaded in the thread

are going to die, because this is more of a consensus, instead of pushing people to vote a specific way.

no shit, dude, when you leave it as vague as that it encompasses pretty much everything

I still want lists from people

Yeah, and I want you to explain why I was apparently your top scumread before your buddies can come online to tell you how to.

[TehBrawlGuy]

no shit, dude, when you leave it as vague as that it encompasses pretty much everything

this sentence speaks into my soul (this is exactly what I thought as I facepalmed)

what makes it really hurt me, is that I considered coming in here after the two town ranking deaths, and going all told ya so and stuff. i considered that it wasn't an impressive enough prediction, and that if I come in here and swing my dick around too much it'll lose impact for the really egregious stuff

so i was like, alright, I'll play nice and not talk about predictions

and then that got posted and I just couldn't

[TehBrawlGuy]

ah shit I suppose that's true. EP, if you have any issues with it let me know and I'll remedy as I can. Of course, you can feel free to purge the link or whatever if you feel that's best.
here's a shitty unformatted plaintext ver. to keep me honest

Spoiler: plaintext rankings

Player# Player Name Ranking Reasoning Order ranking assigned
1 1 - TehBrawlGuy 10 - 1
2 2 - Taly 1 Doesn't need the points and I want to make sure my lowest point values go to people not on the lynch block 9
3 3 - Punreader 10 I buy his claim and I want him to be superpowered 4
4 4 - MariaR 8 Gaming the vote system to prevent lynch 7
5 5 - DeasVail 5 See Notes 15
6 6 - Espeonage 0 obvscum 3
7 7 - Dunnstral 9 He needs to be > espe 5
8 8 - Nahdia 6 Filler Town read 14
9 9 - the worst 2 Doesn't need the points and I want to make sure my lowest point values go to people not on the lynch block 10
10 10 - Pine 10 Gaming the vote system to prevent lynch 6
11 11 - Shoshin 7 Filler, but a combination of Sho seeming different than her scumplay in our last game, and thinking she's decent skill-wise 12
12 12 - Fire Assassin 4 See Notes 15
13 13 - Lovebird 5 See Notes 15
14 14 - Chara 6 Filler Town read 13
15 15 - Srceenplay 3 Doesn't need the points and I want to make sure my lowest point values go to people not on the lynch block 11
16 16 - Vaxkiller 4 See Notes 15
17 17 - PenguinPower 0 obvscum 2
18 18 - NicoRobin 0 hard lurking, not sure if Scum but would rather PL via rankings than actual lynch 8

Notes
There's a hard drop off in how much I care about the rankings between #8 and #9, and again between #11 and #12

DV, Fire, Lovebird and Vax were pretty much looked at as a unit. Lovebird just subbed in, so she gets a pass - Fire and Vax both ping me a little, Vax is pretty useless atm, and my read on DV settled to nulltown so it made sense to rank this way -

[TehBrawlGuy]

You made it well known you wanted me dead, yes, but it was pretty early on and your only stated reasoning was the whole wang thing (which has provided me far more entertainment than I originally thought it would). I was wondering if you ever actually scumread me on something substantial.

I've got no idea where you think I wanted to lynch lurkers from, though. I wanted espe/PP dead pretty much the whole day, neither of whom was lurking, and defended Pine, who was very obviously lurking.

[TehBrawlGuy]

VOTE: Maria

Why

Maria

and not

PP

or

Vax

?

And what do you think about the

DV

and

Fire

votes on

Espe

?

~~~

@TBG

Can you tell me your perspective on

PP

being obvscum? If I read your plaintext correctly?

I've talked about all of it already, but it's a combination of him being against pseudolynch and his interactions with you early, and then later, his claim and the circumstances surrounding his claim.

He's probably my top scumread ATM. I'm still debating who exactly I want to push for the day, but regardless, I can't really see any situation where I'm not at least OK with PP swinging today.

[TehBrawlGuy]

VOTE: espe

I buy Fire's claim. I also think firewagon getting started as a counter to PP wagon indicates good things about PP being scum.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I've talked about all of it already, but it's a combination of him being against pseudolynch and his interactions with you early, and then later, his claim and the circumstances surrounding his claim.

He's probably my top scumread ATM. I'm still debating who exactly I want to push for the day, but regardless, I can't really see any situation where I'm not at least OK with PP swinging today.

Talk to me about post 970

I don't hate it nearly as much as Sho does. Being busy is NAI, and I can see town!pp being wary of people ranking him highly as a buddying maneuver. Of course, I don't think we have town!pp, but there's much stronger things in the case against him that I think 970 is a waste to push over.

[TehBrawlGuy]

The PP wagon? Could you point out where that was?

You were the leading wagon EoD1 (albeit with 2 votes) and the last page was Taly voting you and both me and Sho pointing out we'd be fine with you as a lynch. I suppose it hadn't formed 100% yet, but with how you got ranked, it was clearly heading in that direction. I think Scum were heading it off.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I highly doubt Taly is scum, TBG.

Why are you telling me this? I don't scumread Taly. I weakly townread Taly.

Um...votes on D1 meant shit (as I am still here!). 1 vote isn't a wagon regardless of those who "intend" to vote (since intending to vote means shit, except when bolded and they are at L-1 <- gotta be true to my newbies)

Try again.

Shoshin is probs town.

From your rankings list, you think me and Taly are scum together. I'd like to hear more about that, especially the D1 motivation.

No. Go read the not shitty sheets version, which should spell it out more clearly. The plaintext garbage is just to keep a permanent log so I can't cheat by editing the sheet.

I gave Taly a low score because I wanted to maximize the chances that you/espe/nico died, which meant I had to give my other bad scores to people at low risk of dying. Taly was pretty universally townread, so I figured he would be a safe place to park it.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Go read the not shitty sheets version, which should spell it out more clearly.

The what?

I only see one rankings list.

oh nvm ep nuked it for being an outside link
I'll go generate a less shitty plaintext version.

[TehBrawlGuy]

am I allowed to embed images or is there an easy conversion to table and cell tags or anything less cancer than me formatting this by hand

[TehBrawlGuy]

oh nvm ep nuked it for being an outside link
I'll go generate a less shitty plaintext version.

Thanks to EP then...

*shrug* I gave him my blessing to do what he saw fit, and I can see why outside links are a problem. I'm sad people can't look through the different sorts - sorting by when I assigned the ranking gives a pretty good view into my head I think, but it's not a huge deal.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Player#	Player Name	Ranking	Reasoning	Order ranking assigned
1	TehBrawlGuy	10		1
2	Taly	1	Doesn't need the points and I want to make sure my lowest point values go to people not on the lynch block	9
3	Punreader	10	I buy his claim and I want him to be superpowered	4
4	MariaR	8	Gaming the vote system to prevent lynch	7
5	DeasVail	5	See Notes	15
6	Espeonage	0	obvscum	3
7	Dunnstral	9	He needs to be > espe	5
8	Nahdia	6	Filler Town read	14
9	the worst	2	Doesn't need the points and I want to make sure my lowest point values go to people not on the lynch block	10
10	Pine	10	Gaming the vote system to prevent lynch	6
11	Shoshin	7	Filler, but a combination of Sho seeming different than her scumplay in our last game, and thinking she's decent skill-wise	12
12	Fire Assassin	4	See Notes	15
13	Lovebird	5	See Notes	15
14	Chara	6	Filler Town read	13
15	Srceenplay	3	Doesn't need the points and I want to make sure my lowest point values go to people not on the lynch block	11
16	Vaxkiller	4	See Notes	15
17	PenguinPower	0	obvscum	2
18	NicoRobin	0	hard lurking, not sure if Scum but would rather PL via rankings than actual lynch	8

[TehBrawlGuy]

worst I fucking love you. how did you generate that so fast?

[TehBrawlGuy]

the dumb thing is that I even remembered about it before deadline, I just forgot to resubmit my list with it changed

[TehBrawlGuy]

UNVOTE: espe

It's bad policy to lynch before a claim, even on a cop guilty. Absolutely want the lynch regardless of what Espe claims, though, so I'm willing to revote/hammer once he posts.

[TehBrawlGuy]

VOTE: espe

You're incredibly gullible if you suddenly believe him.

[TehBrawlGuy]

espe where is your fullclaim I can't find it

[TehBrawlGuy]

UNVOTE:

what in the actual fuck guys

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm not bothered by the unvoting on Espe, it's the claim bonanza chaos that's achieved nothing that bothers me.

I did think Espe was Scum regardless of roles, but if Fire messed up his results, wouldn't that mean we have a cop inno on Espe now? (assuming Fire's truthful)

[TehBrawlGuy]

Dunn, given your vote, I'm assuming you believe Maria over Fire, why?

For the reasons I gave earlier as to why Fire's claim was scummy

I unvoted him after he changes his claim

The NK didn't happen last night.

I protected Espeonage from night kills

???

I thought he claimed you vanillized him?

[TehBrawlGuy]

ok fuck all of this role shit let's lynch the obvscum

VOTE: pp

[TehBrawlGuy]

I've talked about all of it already, but it's a combination of him being against pseudolynch and his interactions with [Taly] early, and then later, his claim and the circumstances surrounding his claim.

He's probably my top scumread ATM. I'm still debating who exactly I want to push for the day, but regardless, I can't really see any situation where I'm not at least OK with PP swinging today.

I can go pull pull more specific thins I said on D1 but yeah.

[TehBrawlGuy]

And just like that Fire provides more evidence that he is an idiot that fucked up a fake claim.

No?

Like, it's definitely a boneheaded thing to say, and it makes no sense for him to say it if he's being truthful, but it also makes no sense for him to say it if he's fakeclaiming, so I don't see how you can say it's the latter.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Hmm, one thing of note about those rankings is that if Pun's aggregated ranking list is accurate, that means I'm now above him.

Pun, you definitely do not want to attempt to shoot me, because it will probably fail. It would almost definitely fail if I were mafia and boosted by my teammates.

@MWNN: You should definitely read since the start of D2, because there's been a lot of claims/action. I might make a condensed claim list if I feel like it later.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why are you so concerned with appearing town rather than just playing to a town wincon in order to just help town win?

Super Pro Tip, do town things, and town reads will follow, this much concern about being townread by people troubles me. It troubles me quite a bit.

I understand why you'd be concerned about this but you also need to understand where I'm coming from. Even the best townies get mislynched sometimes; being townread isn't always as simple as doing pro-town things, sometimes it's a matter of presenting your thought process in a way that allows others to understand how it comes from a town perspective.

I'm concerned about appearing town because I've been disengaged from the game to the point where there's an understandable amount of paranoia about my alignment, and when I started getting back into the game doing pro-town things, people still called me scum because I didn't have enough certainty and they didn't like my question-based approach.

My sense is that people are getting caught up in the way I'm presenting my thoughts instead of actually looking at what I'm saying, so I'm presenting basically the exact same information except in the form of cases. Like, I had said most of the stuff in my PP case before. There's not really much new stuff there. I just put the information together in a different way so that players who can't read between the lines see what I'm saying and are better able to understand my thought process.

does anyone here have experience with scum Shoshin? this post just ruined my scumread but it could be faked by someone with any sort of reasonable skill at doing so.

I just finished a game with scum!shoshin, and while it feels similar in terms of general content, the tone behind it is pretty different, especially in a post like this one. I also resonate a lot with the being disengaged but wanting to be townread. She was one of my townreads D1, and she still is. I think it's a huge mistake to go after her.

Also disagree with lynching Fire today. I agree he's the most likely Scum out of the 4 linked by roles, + Maria's claim, but if he's town, leaving him alive forces the mafia to either get copped or deal with him for us. We've got way less dangerous scummy lynches like PP. I'd also be ok with seeing Shepard swing. I had a weak town read on Nahdia but I really don't like how much Shepard has avoided commenting on PP directly and obviously I don't like his push on Shoshin. #chainsaw

I will 1v1 wallpost against anyone who wants to come for

TW's

life atm.

ftr, this is not helpful. if someone genuinely wants to scumread tw, stifling that discussion is not good

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why are you so concerned with appearing town rather than just playing to a town wincon in order to just help town win?

Super Pro Tip, do town things, and town reads will follow, this much concern about being townread by people troubles me. It troubles me quite a bit.

I understand why you'd be concerned about this but you also need to understand where I'm coming from. Even the best townies get mislynched sometimes; being townread isn't always as simple as doing pro-town things, sometimes it's a matter of presenting your thought process in a way that allows others to understand how it comes from a town perspective.

I'm concerned about appearing town because I've been disengaged from the game to the point where there's an understandable amount of paranoia about my alignment, and when I started getting back into the game doing pro-town things, people still called me scum because I didn't have enough certainty and they didn't like my question-based approach.

My sense is that people are getting caught up in the way I'm presenting my thoughts instead of actually looking at what I'm saying, so I'm presenting basically the exact same information except in the form of cases. Like, I had said most of the stuff in my PP case before. There's not really much new stuff there. I just put the information together in a different way so that players who can't read between the lines see what I'm saying and are better able to understand my thought process.

does anyone here have experience with scum Shoshin? this post just ruined my scumread but it could be faked by someone with any sort of reasonable skill at doing so.

I just finished a game with scum!shoshin, and while it feels similar in terms of general content, the tone behind it is pretty different, especially in a post like this one. I also resonate a lot with the being disengaged but wanting to be townread. She was one of my townreads D1, and she still is. I think it's a huge mistake to go after her.

Also disagree with lynching Fire today. I agree he's the most likely Scum out of the 4 linked by roles, + Maria's claim, but if he's town, leaving him alive forces the mafia to either get copped or deal with him for us. We've got way less dangerous scummy lynches like PP. I'd also be ok with seeing Shepard swing. I had a weak town read on Nahdia but I really don't like how much Shepard has avoided commenting on PP directly and obviously I don't like his push on Shoshin. #chainsaw

Lol this is flawed as fuck and I need to see if it’s town flawed or scum flawed

If I comment on PP oh no! I am scum for not catching up!
If I comment on stuff other than PP oh no! Must be chainsaw for not talking about PP.

No one has answered the question I asked and no one has said it is a bad question Ergo the push is good.

Pretty blatant strawman. You can't just put words in my mouth and assume that if you commented on PP I would go after you for "not catching up". I wouldn't. You still haven't, despite clearly having time to go after Shoshin and the cop claims.

Like, I get that you want to spin this, but there's not a good way to spin the fact that you dodged talking about the leading wagon, especially since you started a counterwagon to it.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Actually, I've made multiple posts entertaining this idea and questioning Maria/Fire as a pair, and it's driving me a bit crazy. Nobody seems interested too interested in that though...

I don't believe that town has 0 investigative roles so if nobody else says anything I don't think they can be a pair

pine was tracker neighbor, so we do have one flipped town investigative

obv. we don't know who his partner is and if they're town but he at least was

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm highly suspect of

Fire

at this point

Suspect him all you want.

He is objectively a terrible lynch today because we have two cop claims; if both

are

town (and yes I realize people doubt this but it is not impossible), then pun's only option is to deal with them during the night, lest they both produce more results.

I am telling you now that if we lynch Fire Assassin today and he flips town the entire punteam will be on that wagon and I will lynch exclusively from the players on it, for precisely this reason.

Now I admit, there is a significant chance Fire Assassin is just pun, but this changes nothing.

If he is pun fakeclaiming cop, he still has to produce results every day, or be lynched when he fails to do so.

So we wait.

We give him, at minimum, one day phase.

Correct play in a theme game such as this is not to lynch a cop claim and if the cop flips town lynch the other cop claim; correct play in a theme game is to not lynch either cop claim and let them investigate for a night, and then off of those investigation results, revisit and reevaluate every day on whether to lynch one of the cops and if so which one.

This is a fucking good post.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm fine with swapping to Shepard, but if I do, it'll probably be the hammer. Even though I think he's scum, it does kind of unnerve me that PP wagon has had so many counterwagons, so I feel more sure about PP.

[TehBrawlGuy]

one down boys

also, because I didn't want to muck up the day any further and distract from PP lynch, I want to snipe this now in case I die - TW has been pinging me pretty hard for a long time, and I'd suggest you all reevaluate your TRs on him, because tbh I think our most likely loss scenario is keeping him alive through endgame if he's Scum. This is especially directed at Taly, who asked me about his townbloc earlier and whom I mostly agree with at this point. I'm definitely not committing to going after TW tomorrow, because I need to do my own reread and look at results of PP lynch, but it does bother me that he's so widely townread.

[TehBrawlGuy]

also, I think it's pretty funny that I both feel like I'm likely to die to the scumkill and to the vig

idk if I've felt that way before

[TehBrawlGuy]

ok good thanks

[TehBrawlGuy]

i guess that's technically true EP hasnt posted yet

[TehBrawlGuy]

Unfortunate for Pun - he pretty much won the game for town and y'all just straight up murdered him instead of sharing the win. GG folks for bringing it home, I thought we were hosed after Taly and I both died.