Open 737: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[Enigma]

Hihi everyone!

My wincon for this game is to take all the page tops. Anyone getting in the way shall be die.
VOTE: ruru

[Enigma]

im assuming that creature just gets obvtowned early on?

If he steals ma page tops, ima lynch him

[Enigma]

silly monkey

[Enigma]

page top
teehee ofrhz

---

liek dis if u cri everytiem -ofrhz

[Enigma]

I've learnt my lesson about setup spec D1 in such set ups ...
Tbh you can look at past games run with this set up and you'll see that the picks wildly differ

[Enigma]

Actually thanks vex that’s quite useful. I was too lazy to look myself, partly because of what you mentioned about mods not flipping on post 0.

What’s interesting is that it’s 15 games, so from glance of numbers the average no of mods per game is quite low.

[Enigma]

Early *serious* read alert: Vex is likely town. I did the exact same thing (speculating about what scum might have picked) when I played this setup for the first time. It's not a *strong* TR bc there is a scum motive to do it (and I'd really rather not speaking of that right now) but I'd like to think of him as a townie for a starting point.

yeah i agree overall

Even considering that he’s an alt?

[Enigma]

It’s likely that you might have experience with such setups. I’m pretty meh towards early reads anyways

[Enigma]

Teehee

[Enigma]

It’s likely that you might have experience with such setups. I’m pretty meh towards early reads anyways

There is a chance* instead of likely.

[Enigma]

Anyways I got my page tops from ofrhz and I’m satisfied so I better stop refreshing this thread continuously

[Enigma]

also enigma are u just generally against alts?
im getting that feeling from u

Nah doesn't bother me so much, meta only takes you so far when scumhunting

I think it's like actively antitown because it informs scum's decision of what to claim

Whilst I don't think its super productive, agree with Vex its fine to boot us out of RVS. I wouldn't say its helping scum unless people are literally softclaiming their TPRs, in which case helping scum CC is the least of our worries...

[Enigma]

teehee

[Enigma]

Hey guys I'm traitor no shoot pls

VOTE: Almost50

I would be so upset if later this we find out that you weren't joking with this lol

[Enigma]

Suppose you're a scum at L1 and you have to decide what to claim, you have information that town will probably believe n+1 PRs existing, so you claim PR

Why wouldn't scum just fake claim regardless of our discussion, claiming VT doesn't really help them out at L-1 anyways so at least could just take their chances with a CC bait or potentially get away with it?

[Enigma]

If scum really claimed pr every time then town could just confirm themselves by claiming vt

Hypothetically yes, but unfortunately town has a tendency to lynch VTs claims and let TPRs get off...
Another thing is that there is very little defence once a TPR is outed in this set up. No docs, watchers, JKs, etc. Bodyguard is less than ideal - i.e. very little to discourage scum NKing TPRs if they CC.

[Enigma]

@a50 why wagon sky?

Because it's fun.
And also bc it's good for the game.
Well, it's as good as any other wagon really, but my vote is already there and so is ruru's, so if you want to be our third I'd be obliged. (It's still be L-4 you know, and N_M isn't even in this game if it makes you feel any better)

Someone should replace out so NM can replace in so we can lynch him

[Enigma]

i like ruru's entrance

Explain?

also ....
pedit: sigh

[Enigma]

pageget

VOTE: Vex

[Enigma]

In post 89, Skygazer wrote:
Guys you know how hypo innos are a thing?

Why don't we do hypo scum teams? If I'm the traitor then my partners are ruru and A50 pls dont crosskill me guys


this is actually kinda :/

i don't know why town says this

Tbh I agree with how :/ this is, but I also don't know why scum would ever say such a thing either....

[Enigma]

teehee

[Enigma]

Once upon a time, a50 and I played a game where he (as town) scumread the outed IC

because he wasn't reading the game

Well, the underlined makes a hell of a difference, doesn't it? What I'm saying is you don't

joke

about lynching the IC as town when you're

totally aware

they have been confirmed as the IC, and that it almost always comes from scum who think it's one way to appear "too scummy to be scum".

i mean....... i don't think sky (or anyone with a mental capacity exceeding a dog turd's) seriously thinks trolling is going to get them townread

Not quite sure what we are getting at, but there are quite a few players whose gameplay primarily involve trolling, regardless of alignment.
People just troll and shitpost because its fun?

[Enigma]

It's like pretty hard for me to take your vote on me seriously when you already called it a "pressure vote" and like I pretty much expect you to read me correctly before eod anyway regardless of your alignment? And I'd rather just be shitposting lol

What do you mean by

regardless of your alignment

here (i.e. skitter's)? Why would skitter not know your alignment if she was scum?

[Enigma]

teehee

[Enigma]

I thought we buried the setup spec already, no need to dig it up and stomp on its bones...

[Enigma]

A50 likes his early-game theories - which I'm usually a bit null on how much I personally follow them (and he does them as scum and town). With Sky, I think I've played several of my recent games with NM and I'm too desensitised to reading based on trolly trolly.

[Enigma]

If skitter is still scumreading me at eod, correct play is to lynch me and then lynch her, and scum.her is probably aware of that and therefore probably won't try to mislynch me

I mean that is a bit reachy regarding lynching skitter if she scumreads you (correctly) and you end up being lynched. Why are you suggesting the correct play is to lynch her after you are lynched (regardless of flip) - yes scum can bus, but (town) skitter can and should also be able to scumread you (correctly or incorrectly) without dooming her to being PLd after you are lynched?

[Enigma]

VOTE: Creature

I've seen an accidental lolhammer on an IC that has yet to be revealed, can we make history and accidentally lynch an outed IC?

im assuming that creature just gets obvtowned early on?

If he steals ma page tops, ima lynch him

You two got nothing else to do?

Ofrhz mocked me game start about pagetops, so she shall regret that
btw, I see you stole my page top ...

[Enigma]

Welcome to A50 theories ... true madness, this is why I take them with a grain of salt ahaha

A50, re Sky's avatar do you think she changed it just because of this specific game and the wagon on her (considering she is playing in several other games rn)?

[Enigma]

teehee ofrhz

[Enigma]

Welcome to A50 theories ... true madness, this is why I take them with a grain of salt ahaha

A50, re Sky's avatar do you think she changed it just because of this specific game and the wagon on her (considering she is playing in several other games rn)?

Well, I haven't checked her other ongoing games and I dunno if she said she'd be watching avatar in them, so I can't return a reliable answer. However, I do think that post had something to do with that avatar edit in this game, and thus more inclined to buy it. After all, if I lose to her because of THAT move I'd still be laughing hard at how cute of a move it was.

You think that she thought to changed her profile pic, because she said she was watching avatar in a post? Ahaha, gotta hand it - this is far beyond the bounds of my reasoning lol .... brain can not compute .... guess I gotta just leave Sky as is for now.

[Enigma]

I mean that is a bit reachy regarding lynching skitter if she scumreads you (correctly) and you end up being lynched. Why are you suggesting the correct play is to lynch her after you are lynched (regardless of flip) - yes scum can bus, but (town) skitter can and should also be able to scumread you (correctly or incorrectly) without dooming her to being PLd after you are lynched?

@ruru can you respond to this please?

... because I'm town and I'll flip town? Like seriously this is a stupid question and I'm kinda having a hard time getting into the game because the majority of the playerlist seems to be having trouble understanding where I'm coming from wrt mafia theory when I don't think I'm being particularly unclear or particularly wrong in what I'm saying

I'd much rather answer sorting questions than mafia theory questions

I actually want to policy lynch like everyone right now

Tbh, you make an assumption that we think you are town for your logic to work, and then at the same time you continue to claim that you are intentionally playing somewhat scummy and can understand why people are scumreading you.... So you can perhaps see why people are "having trouble understanding you"

Unfortunately I don't have strong reads and I don't feel like talking to anyone so basically I haven't done anything and I understand the scumread on me

Can you explain your Jager vote then?

[Enigma]

Like, I want to interfere here yet I don't want to (!!).

OK, people are not reading what ruru said correct, so the back(s) and forth(es) are justified from "their" PoV, but seem a bit ridiculous to me. Let me go fetch the quote.. here it is:

If skitter is still scumreading me at eod

, correct play is to lynch me and then lynch her, and

scum.her is probably aware of that and therefore probably won't try to mislynch me

Now let's see.. check the underlined. Is it EOD yet?? I don't think it is, and thus discussing what follows while "ignoring" the condition sounds ridiculous in the first place.

Then, someone said something about "regardless of the flip" which I fail to find here (maybe it's somewhere else, so please be kind to point it out). As it is, what I got here is "if skitter still fails to that ruru is Town

by the end of the day

, then ruru will assume skitter is scum and faking a read on her, thus offers herself to be lynched and

when she flips town

to lynch skitter next, because -in ruru's mind- skitter knows her too well to still be SRing her after "what's to come".

However, the bolded tells me ruru isn't that confident skitter is faking at this point. On contrary, she thinks skitter's read

at this point

might be justified, for ruru herself admits she hasn't yet obv!towned. She thus thinks skitter SRing

now

is a sugn skitter is Town, but if that read is still there

after ruru "does her thing" and obv!town

(which should be sometime betwee now and EoD, THEN you can all assume one of them is scum for sure and proceed with the "lynch ruru and -if town- lynch skitter" plan.

Now, where did I go wrong? What am I missing??

@skitter: As for you not ever doing what Sky did as either alignment; I 100% believe you. I said >I< would, because I'm that eccentric. You are more of an orthodox player, while I'm the exact opposite. (You know how to obv!town for starters, while if I tried that I end up looking far more scummy than if I deliberately tried to act scummy!!)

So, it's very normal .. very natural to me that you, Enigma and most others would fail to see it my way (regarding what Sky did) for you would have to be me (or someone crazy) to even look at it that way.

Yeh that was me with the quote. Tbh when I first wrote that I was looking at it thinking that ruru could be scum and it set off alarm bells. In my 217 where I kind of revisited the quote from the assumption of a town!ruru chain of thought, it made more sense. However, the logic in ruru's post only works out if you approach it thinking that ruru is town.

A50, you townreading ruru then?

[Enigma]

teehee

[Enigma]

If I go crazy:

01. Almost50

02. HeWhoSwims

03. Skygazer
04. ruru

05. Antihero
06. ManWithNoName

07. Enigma
08. FrankJaeger
09. Creature

10. Gamma Emerald

11. skitter30
12. Vex Vience

OK, we agree on 2/3 and you're conf!Town so your reads are a good reference to me.

VOTE: Antihero

OK, so substitute Sky with MWNN in my initial Scum team formation and that's game over. Scums are Antihero, ManWithNoName & FrankJaeger. I'm a GENIUS!!

A50 (and creature)
I was just checking a few ISOs and realised MWNN has three posts, has been V/LA and essentially contentless. How did we reach the conclusion for MWNN?

[Enigma]

If I go crazy:

01. Almost50

02. HeWhoSwims

03. Skygazer
04. ruru

05. Antihero
06. ManWithNoName

07. Enigma
08. FrankJaeger
09. Creature

10. Gamma Emerald

11. skitter30
12. Vex Vience

/sigh

ok, let's go over why a50 is crossed out i guess

I was expecting you to present something on A50 but you haven't ... any thoughts on A50 and his vote on you?

[Enigma]

Hi I just wanted to check in that I'm here and will read tonight ... how did the thread get 10 pages since I was last here less than two days ago??

[Enigma]

Reading from p11 onward and commenting, sorry if posts might seem like they are disjointed.

--
A50
I remember reading somewhere that A50 complaining about how he is a prime N1 target as both scum and town, kinda see why now. I've played with A50 a few times, but only with him as scum. He feels a bit different here though ... maybe in the game solving? Though the hypo scum me would do this/that including mod guessing isn't helping his case since there are too many variables for a mechanic play D1. As I mentioned previously, I'm not a huge fan of the V/LA push on MWNN considering it is a site-wide absence rather than this game only, but now that CJ is in the slot and should hopefully be more active (and I've played with CJ before and know his game a bit better) I'm leaning towards overlooking this for D1, though the associative will be interesting late game with more flips. For me, he is kinda a player that is night action bait and if he is alive in LYLO without hard clears you start asking some serious questions.

Ohh I don't know what to think of A50's self vote and then saying he does this as both alignments whilst acknowledging that this is scummy. Skitter pretty much walks through my entire wtf thought process on the next page.

--
Vex
Feels town to me for now. I think just with the sheet amount of content, some scum intentions would slip through somewhere. As I read through, I don't really see much of this in places. He is actively putting pressure and scum hunting, particularly the interaction with A50.

--
Night actions
(stemming from a50's 321). We don't know what PRs are in play and many of the actions are not conclusive for town. E.g. a vig can be roleblocked etc. D1 discussion on hypo night actions I don't are particularly helpful, and tbh I feel it is a little bit AI towards scum as there are too many unknowns at this stage for someone townie to even want to engage in all this hypo stuff.

--
Frank
Disagree with quite a few of his reads. HWS and antihero as town? I checked their ISOs and I'm struggling to find that perception ...
Franks 464 about A50s CC post is terrible.

--
Mechanics discussion
Agree with A50 about CC not being the optimal play. There is very little protection for town in this setup for outed PRs, and scum will be on a limited time towards endgame and it will unravel. Crumb enough so that it is enough to justify in a LYLO/MYLO situation.

You can read a50 and ruru as town/scum whatever, but what they do mention is an optimal play.

Not having a cop/vig doesn't matter. It provides cover for the situation that cop/vig exists. And maybe there isn't a cop/vig, but in the case they might exist it helps town out a lot if we follow the mechanics.

--
Ruru
I agree with the vig and hypo-cop strat, but the following (439 about skitter being able to TR ruru because of that post) makes me sad and wonder if this is to buy town credit. Ruru has come off a bit concerned about being TRd by skitter most the game which is :/ And at the same time is less concerned about trying to confirm skitter's alignment - just feel it is very one directional.

--
Sky
This has just been fluff and shit posting dunno, kinda was expecting more from (town) sky.

--
No comment or comments reserved for other players at the moment. Sorry post is a bit brief to do justice for the past 10 pages.

[Enigma]

I probably won't oppose Frank either

If you wanted pressure, wouldn't you vote frank? Though I'm realising that being D1 confirmed IC sucks haha as noone cares about questioning you and finding out your alignment.

[Enigma]

1. Don't CC any fake claims
2. Vote for who you want to (hypo) vig with hurt tags
3. Hypo cop results tomorrow

UNVOTE:
Waiting a bit

[Enigma]

I'd rather be an IC that never revealed though.

Yeh imagine it would be more useful and fun where you could control when you get the mod confirmed IC

[Enigma]

Not a read list, but here is who I wouldn't mind if they were lynched/vigged today
Frank, HWS ... potentially Gamma and Sky as well

[Enigma]

I've been super busy with work and the thread kinda exploded really quickly that it put me off Got lots of work travel in the coming two weeks as well, so connectivity gunna be terrible ... though I usually love posting from airports hahaha.

[Enigma]

1. Don't CC any fake claims
2. Vote for who you want to (hypo) vig with hurt tags
3. Hypo cop results tomorrow

UNVOTE:
Waiting a bit

whoa, you're just running with ruru's plan?

Yeh? It benefits town?

[Enigma]

439 was pure sarcasm because the hypocop post is 100% nai and skitter was scumreading me for not making it a couple days earlier which is really silly

also hi ceejay!

Yeh ok haha. NAI.
Do you still TR skitter btw?

[Enigma]

Your reservation about there not being a cop in the game? Well if there is no cop, then there is little benefit but if there is a cop it is helpful. Plus it forces scum to put something on the table and potential discussions about choice of targets, so thats is a benefit regardless of cop/no cop. I mean do you have any reservations about downsides?

[Enigma]

Your reservation about there not being a cop in the game? Well if there is no cop, then there is little benefit but if there is a cop it is helpful. Plus it forces scum to put something on the table and potential discussions about choice of targets, so thats is a benefit regardless of cop/no cop. I mean do you have any reservations about downsides?

Well if there is no cop, scum could deduce that from hypo results and determine that it's a safe fakeclaim. Plus homesite meta generally makes me uneasy about hypocop except when it's proven effective (like in cop 13Ps on MU)

Well I think its quite difficult for scum to deduce the existence of a cop from hypo-claims because they have to POE all the town slots which could potentially have it and that is something they can't do very easily early game, and by late game we have already got most the benefits if a real cop exists.

[Enigma]

It;s like the VT Cop (VT, not just Vanilla) in a role madness. The VT Cop will only be able to identify the one VT in the game. If there are "named townies" (like, if there's a Miller with no alignment Cop in play or a Nurse with no Doctor in play, or a Macho Citizen.. etc. they will give a "not a VT" result still). If that was a VANILLA Cop though then only true Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons will give them a positive result.

P-edit: A50 is NEVER a good "Vig" hit. A50 is a good NK for scum and a good Investigation target for Town unless he obv!Towns in which case the Mafia are sure to take care of him on N1. In short, you don't need to worry about me before D3 (and chances I won't even be alive by then)

The thing is stuff like this (the p-edit) is so WIFOMy considering it is a goon cop and it is not a hard clear. It's like don't vig me, the goon cop can clear me (even though it is not a hard clear) and scum can NK me otherwise - but omits the case if he is scum PR ... but anyways AP for me is a future problem, and at least get his worth for the first few days if he is town ...

[Enigma]

Not familiar with the term ellitelling, but googling finds this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ellibereth

Just to understand, by ellitell - do you mean that Sky is possible scum here because of her lurking here, and higher rates of activity in other game?

[Enigma]

Sorry my activity is terrible, busy busy busy with work. Will write up a few posts tonight.

[Enigma]

Almost50 (3): Antihero, Gamma Emerald, FrankJaeger

the longer this wagon sits here the more i dislike it

sky/engima why aren't you voting?

(i guess i'll give cj a pass for another day or two irl but i think that the gamestate woudl perhaps be much better if everyone was voting)

I don't think A50 is the right play for today and if he is scum it is a future us problem. Not to mention, I also think he is very weak town. What follows from this is a bit of suspicion on the the three on this wagon (particularly if frank flips scum).

Frank was the person I was interested in voting a while back, but at that stage he had been a bit inactive so I was hoping he would come back and clear up some doubts. Well ... he hasn't done a very good job with that lol.

--

Actually how about this

VOTE: Skygazer
HURT: Frank

ellitell and frank needs to die but sky is more likely to be bp I think

Tbh, I don't know how much info we will get trying to lynch Sky. As she mentioned, she is pretty lynchbaity here and I don't really think she will do much to protest against a wagon on her given her activity and she will probably just continue trolling as either alignment making her even more lynchbaity. To me, a player like that is better off being vigged and should definitely not be around endgame, and if she is bp she is screwed - and this can also be mechanically be deciphered before endgame without a D2 claim.

--

Thank you ofrhz

Hello

I will catchup fully probably during the weekend.

Based on first 5 pages: vex, skitter, skygazer and young man A29 are town. Hewhoswims and Enigma are scum.

I don't normally replace people so this is new to me enjoy my tease. More to come.

Regarding Enigma:
In those 5 pages the number of pagetops, posts about pagetops, jokes about pagetops, and posts about setup make up an awfully large portion of his total posts.

I really don't like pagetop grabbing.. I know many townies do it but it doesn't help at all and sometimes people compete over them which helps artificially boost post and page counts. It's a bit of a personal bias of mine.

It's interesting you only question that read. Has he been townspewing in the thread?

We can talk more once I'm caught up. Usually 24 hours is plenty but I don't think I'll get it done before the weekend. Those 5 pages I read in my work breaks while waiting for the mod to PM me.

Ehhh this feels quite awkward.
You townread several players who are doing much more setup spec than I am? Can you explain this?
Read the pagetops however you want - its fun to troll the mod, especially when she mocks you pregame about pagetops. You mention that many townies steal page tops, then go on to call it scummy? Seems a bit counterintuitive - also vex is doing this as well on these recent pages, and no comment on that.

You also mention HWS as scum. I checked his ISO he has 4 posts in the first 5 pages you reference, and I can barely figure out how he is scum based on those posts.

Last thing - why do you write using words of absolute certainty (e.g. are instead of may/could/might be). How are you so sure of your reads when as town you would be quite uncertain about alignments.

[Enigma]

What standards are those so we can get a little more specific

I dunno. You're NOT using any.

Also,

IF SOMEONE CLAIMS A PR TODAY

DO NOT CC

Spoiler: Here's why:

Generally speaking, doomed scum will fake a claim to out the most dangerous PR (if exists) according to the modifications (or lack thereof) they picked. If that PR isn't in the game then there will be no CC anyway. Now let me not go into too much details and go straight to the point:

- Claiming Vigilante when a Town Vig does exist = Just shoot the claimer. If they're BP we'll deal with it on D2, but there is always a chance the Vig will kill the scum w.o. the need to out themselves.

- Claiming Bodyguard: Chances are he BG will flip sometime during the game anyway, so we will know it was a fake claim. (Actually this one "may claim if they want to", since they're dying anyway, and most probably protecting the IC, so I'll leave it to your best judgement)

- Claiming Tracker: Obviously we want results from the Tracker, and the longer they live the more reliable their results will be, so no need to eat a bullet on N1 in exchange of lynching a scumster on D1. I hope you know what to do in this case though.

- Claiming Roleblocker: Also more valuable towards the game end. Best play is to block the fake claimer thus forcing scum to use someone else to do the kill AND making them lose their modification if they have one.

- Claiming Goon Cop: This role is intended to find us at least one scum if it could. If the fake claimer is a goon (and the only one) then you should claim, but how do we know that? Best play is to try and find others (if any) and if you get shot we will know whom to lynch anyway, but if you do get a guilty on someone else then that's when you claim and you give us TWO scums instead of just one.

If you disagree with any of this, feel free to do what you will, but

please

don't discuss alternative strategies. Discussing certain details may still give your role away w.o. even the need for scum to fake claim anything.

Thanks for your attention.

2/10

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Almost50

You can't yell don't talk spec after this lol.
Your vote stinks too

Idk even though skit is ignoring it, ive posted my reasons for my A50 vote. Haven't seen anything to change it so far

Your vote also stinks and you haven't done anything to change my opinion on it.
VOTE: Frank
HURT: Sky

[Enigma]

To me, a player like that is better off being vigged

this needs further explanation

IMO vig null-scum read lurkers who won't aren't so interested in engaging in the game - contributing as town or defending themselves as either alignment. Just my opinion, but the information gain on associative from trying to lynch a lurker (maybe scum, though hard to read due to lack of content) is less compared to lynching someone who is active but scummy.
Not claiming this mafia theory or correct, rather just my thoughts and because I kinda rely more on associative for hunting

[Enigma]

To me, a player like that is better off being vigged

this needs further explanation

I can't really wrap my head around bp equity, but I'm thinking that if it hits a BP it is pretty much scum indicative (bar really bad luck with a rb) anyways - so it's like a cop guilty, and because of game mechanics if a vig existed they don't have to claim to force the guilty because we know who the vig should have targeted anyways (should the vig die)

[Enigma]

Ohhhhhh when I opened this game I thought I was reading another thread when the fluffiness and yellowness of duckling appeared - hiii duck quack quack page tops belong to me in the game btw

[Enigma]

do you know why tw is scumreading you?

Uh meta I guess? He never directly read me like this before.

CJ, I know you have played with tw before in ruru's open 722 as scum. Are there any other games where tw plays, where you have been scum? Interested to try to see where tw is coming from (as I only know town CJ).

ruru this was your game ... do you understand where tw is coming from?

[Enigma]

do you know why tw is scumreading you?

Uh meta I guess? He never directly read me like this before.

CJ, I know you have played with tw before in ruru's open 722 as scum. Are there any other games where tw plays, where you have been scum? Interested to try to see where tw is coming from (as I only know town CJ).

ruru this was your game ... do you understand where tw is coming from?

Sorry I meant 733 here.

my creds with cjv incoming

mini normal 2021 - scum!tw & VT!cjv. he was the d1 mislynch
newbie 1878 - I was scum and a late rep in, witnessed d1 cjv lynch as town tracker
open 733 we were s/s with Ircher and had a perfect win and it was very, very funny
open 725 I was town seer cjv was werewolf, I caught his buddy n1 he survived and won
open 720 I was detective killed n1 cjv was VT lynched d2 (we don't talk about open 720)
Newbie 1870 I was vt and endgamed, cjv town tracker killed n1
newbie 1866 cjv was VT lynched d1, I survived and won as VT
Newbie 1882 I read, cjv was town mislynched
Open 730 I spectated, cjv was town RB and survived and won
Newbie 1864 I spectated, cjv was VT and survived and won

So your meta read is based mainly on 733 and 725 then? Before I read them, are you scum reading CJ or not town reading CJ?

[Enigma]

I would vig enigma lmao but seriously.

Can post more replies when off of work tomorrow.

Can you explain why?

[Enigma]

not-town-reading
slightly scumread his pred

Well I've played a few town with CJ so I'll look over them a bit (probs tomorrow).
How did you manage to read MWNN as scum with 3 contentless V/LA posts??

[Enigma]

The speed at which the CJ wagon formed is a bit off putting .. the VCA will be interesting if/when he flips

CJ and NWMM are so contentless I can barely make a read, and I don't even know if CJ has read the whole thread yet ...
Reading Open 733 where CJ was scum (with tw), CJ actually (pretends) to scumhunt a bit, actively pushes mislynches, and interacts with the gamestate. Open 725 is a bit of a mess to read, but CJ feels also a bit more actively driving lynches (and he was bussing his partner AP).

Maybe part of why I'm hesitant, in addition to CJ simply having zero content, is a lack of CJ voting on someone so far and advancing the game state. I've also mislynched CJ in other games, partly because he was lurky and didn't get a chance to defend himself. But I've also seen town CJ defend himself as the lynch target when he was more active.

So meta wise I don't quite see the picture on CJ.

[Enigma]

I think I'd prefer to hang sky, shoot frank, but even then I'm tentative on Frank
VOTE: Skygazer
HURT: frank

Gamma completely ignoring that tw has replaced Sky is a bit :/

[Enigma]

IDK what I'm getting from cjv is pretty similar to the current best meta tell on scum!Creature

normally it feels like he's mislynched because he lurks for ages then says what's actually on his mind without stepping anyone through his thought processes and his reads are actually often absolutely fine it's just he doesn't always explain them

here he's taken quite a lot of time to produce incredibly safe reads with reasoning and then occasionally floats in and says the game is moving too fast

I just kinda want something that blows my mind, or a lynch

I'm also bad at reading posts so just properly read this. After my previous post defending with CJ, I do agree that this is somewhat scummy. Do you (tw, and AP) think his activity is comparable to his past scum games? My meta dive was really quick, though I kinda felt CJ was a bit more active in those games.

[Enigma]

Tbh my preference is still frank as he has yet to satisfactory alleviate the scum concerns on him.
Would not be opposed to CJ vig shot, maybe because I'm not convinced about his alignment (and maybe there is/isn't a vig) but also because I'm kinda interested to know how CJ flips just to figure out the deal with wagon dynamics lol.

Need to read Gamma properly.

Would like to see more from Bujaber and HWS as not sure about their slots.

[Enigma]

can we prod BJ

His vote on A50 is useless and I want to see where he puts it and why by EOD

[Enigma]

I'm holding off voting for a Vig shot. My choice would greatly depend on the CJV flip AND who is on/off the wagon then.

That said, I'd recommend leaving Frank alone for tonight. Tomorrow we can pursue our quest in light of the flip(s) of both CJV and the night kill(s).

I don't like the vig plan anymore
traitor is bp right? so that means trying to vig the traitor probably isn't smart play, and that also means a lack of vig kill may lead to bad speculation about the setup.

So who do you think is the traitor then? And what makes you think the traitor exists?
You are voting sky based on vex's case, which said that sky/tw is probably the traitor - you are voting for this slot, which is the optimal play if that is correct. If you believe sky/tw is the traitor, then why disagree with the vig plan?

Any comments on tw's entrance and play so far?

[Enigma]

like you weren't like 'my point on a50 isn't valid so i now read him as ______ and i'm going to vote tw instead because i think his slot is scummy because _____'

you were like *quotes vex's sky case but don't talk about it at all* *votes sky who isn't even in this game anymore without talking about how you read her at all* *mentions that your point on a50 is invalid but don't explain how that affects how you read him*

like the thought process just seems kinda going-through-the-motions-y, not like something you thought about yourself naturally

Add in *completely omits mention of sky being replaced by duck, and comments on duck's play*

[Enigma]

*and doesn't comment on duck's play*

[Enigma]

I townread enigma now at least

I think I town read you too. For some reason I start games off scum reading you then it changes near end of D1

Anyways comments on a few other players I didn't mentioned earlier before eod and because its the weekend and I finally have some time (finished huge work project yesterday yay!)

Duck - Dunno sky was scummy, he might be scum (and he is good at playing scum so I can't figure him yet). Though he is good company so don't mind hanging around with him a few more days though wouldn't really want to see him in lylo (in this current gamestate)

A50 - On the deal with them at a later date as well, and at any rate if his complaining about his early night meta is correct (being targeted) we will figure out soon anyways

Vex - Town read through through sheer posting and activity. With the amount that he is posting, if he was scum I feel like it may be easy to notice - but haven't really seen that yet

Skitter - I can't read skitter future me problem

Creature - Not sure about this guy. (Also I just want to put it out there, you kinda think you might get NKd though I don't think this is certain. Scum could want to hunt TPRs, and no offence you haven't really put a lot of pressure in this game so far to really threaten scum.)

As mentioned earlier would like to see more content: HWS and BJ, both should be back from V/LA or prod soon hopefully before EOD.
Lynch/vig pool: {GE, CJ, Frank}

[Enigma]

Tbh, kinda just wanna keep tw because I haven't played with him yet

[Enigma]

Why are those ducks so nice to you? They always chase and quack at me.

[Enigma]

And also poo everywhere where people sit on those lawns

[Enigma]

Oh thats useful thanks. Its right for me, time to do this
HURT: CJ
I hope we have a vig after all of this

[Enigma]

Gamma comment on the worst plss

[Enigma]

I'm holding off voting for a Vig shot. My choice would greatly depend on the CJV flip AND who is on/off the wagon then.

That said, I'd recommend leaving Frank alone for tonight. Tomorrow we can pursue our quest in light of the flip(s) of both CJV and the night kill(s).

I don't like the vig plan anymore
traitor is bp right? so that means trying to vig the traitor probably isn't smart play, and that also means a lack of vig kill may lead to bad speculation about the setup.

So who do you think is the traitor then? And what makes you think the traitor exists?
You are voting sky based on vex's case, which said that sky/tw is probably the traitor - you are voting for this slot, which is the optimal play if that is correct. If you believe sky/tw is the traitor, then why disagree with the vig plan?

Any comments on tw's entrance and play so far?

The vig plan has nothig to do with what I believe may be in the setup, it has to do with what may be in the setup. Let's say we don't have a vig. That means it's very possible we may conclude wrongly the vig target is a traitor. Now this depends on the town assuming this, but given how everyone's been playing, I have no faith in this town to not go apeshit.

Tbh if the vig target doesn't die, we just lynch them the next day - that will either hit scum traitor/bp, or we learn there is no vig in the game.

Duckling has been in the game for 3 days, why do you vote him based on Sky's action without even considering how duck is playing (and not for lack of posting from duck)

[Enigma]

I mean I don't think it is possible to get a lynch on duckling happening in <48 hours. I'm pretty sold that I want to see Frank and/or CJ flip at this stage and it would take a bit of convincing to move enough people onto counter wagons before EOD

[Enigma]

QUACK

[Enigma]

What do you think about BuJaber?

Got prodded yesterday, hoping he gets replaced soon.

[Enigma]

Can we just lynch one of CJ and frank, and move onto other stuff the next day? There is no plurality this game. This day is nearly two weeks already....
If Frank/CJ flip town, my bet is on at least one scum in the lurkers/non-voters HWS, GE, BuJ

[Enigma]

Scum reads:
Enigma - had something like 7 pagetop related posts out of his first 20 posts. He even votes for vex seemingly only because vex 'stole' his pagetop. The rest of those 20 barely talk about people, more about setup. Just not clear at all how he's reading people if he has any reads. Up to page 20 still not clear where he stabds reads-wise. 536 reads! Okay this is much better than his previous posts but not a difficult post to make as scum. Like it seems to be rather neutral for a reads list. I expect it to be more opinionated.

Your hating on my pagetop skills makes me sad, not sure we can be friends. Anyways stealing pagetops is fun and idc how you read it.
Plus, I have other more recent content that you've seemed to overlook. Also, you are pretty much sheeping my latest reads I posted a while back (apart from putting me on it ofc)

[Enigma]

Btw, now that this game is over ... viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76766
This has kinda been in my mind the whole game, but couldn't say much as ongoing.

Skitter was one of my strongest TRs in that game, I even doc protected her because I thought she would be prime NK target ... alas she was scum
scum!skitter a force to be reckoned with, and was literally universally townread by everyone and won because town trusted her enough to hammer test her in MYLO

So I haven't really commented on skitter so much, that said I am kinda townreading skitter this game, but I don't trust her or my reads on her hahahha
Hence my earlier comment about I don't really know how to read her with confidence

[Enigma]

I guess something along these lines:

{Creature, me}
{Vex}
{A50, skitter}
{Ruru, TW}
-----null line----
{Gamma, cjv}
{Enigma}
{HWS, Frank}

Lol who puts themselves in their own readlist

[Enigma]

Btw, now that this game is over ... viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76766
This has kinda been in my mind the whole game, but couldn't say much as ongoing.

Skitter was one of my strongest TRs in that game, I even doc protected her because I thought she would be prime NK target ... alas she was scum
scum!skitter a force to be reckoned with, and was literally universally townread by everyone and won because town trusted her enough to hammer test her in MYLO

So I haven't really commented on skitter so much, that said I am kinda townreading skitter this game, but I don't trust her or my reads on her hahahha
Hence my earlier comment about I don't really know how to read her with confidence

Not really suggesting she is scum, but rather just to be careful with going with conf!town reads. Just wanted to put it out there if in case I'm sitting in the deadthread watching in agony as the same thing (mislynch after mislynch) slowly happens again.

[Enigma]

Yeh I’m not sure I can manage another dead thread in the same situation again lol. It was agony watching you spew obvtown and be hard townread by every player whilst knowing you were scum.

I also remember you said the same comment about let’s tslk about it when ofrhz mentioned we should revisit skitter townread in ducks game after you won another scum game (I was like yay please do this but no one did). Ahh paranoia. I mean let’s just not hard townread skitter ever again.

[Enigma]

Can we just lynch one of CJ and frank, and move onto other stuff the next day? There is no plurality this game. This day is nearly two weeks already....
If Frank/CJ flip town, my bet is on at least one scum in the lurkers/non-voters HWS, GE, BuJ

How an I a lurker/non-voter, my vote has been in play most of the game, and I have been active for the most part, sorry I can't keep up with some of you spamfucks.

Your vote, whilst active, isn't do much much as I've previously mentioned. Especially considering deadline is running out.

[Enigma]

Can we just lynch one of CJ and frank, and move onto other stuff the next day? There is no plurality this game. This day is nearly two weeks already....
If Frank/CJ flip town, my bet is on at least one scum in the lurkers/non-voters HWS, GE, BuJ

How an I a lurker/non-voter, my vote has been in play most of the game, and I have been active for the most part, sorry I can't keep up with some of you spamfucks.

I guess something along these lines:

{Creature, me}
{Vex}
{A50, skitter}
{Ruru, TW}
-----null line----
{Gamma, cjv}
{Enigma}
{HWS, Frank}

Lol who puts themselves in their own readlist

Several people. Why does it matter?

I feel its like a LAMIST. Town doesn't really need to reinforce themselves as town to everyone, especially if they are not under the threat of lynch.

[Enigma]

Wow BuJ thanks for the huge wall of text dedicated to me.
1. I steal page tops because its fun and would gladly do it as either faction
2. I can't make reads in the first 24/48 hours of a game ... in general my D1 play sucks
3. I'm very special thanks, so I can have all the RVS votes I want

[Enigma]

Well when I didn't put creature in my townlist earlier he asked why. I didn't think it needed to be stated. I was wrong. Same thing.

Alsp vex put himself as a townread several times this game. Just you know maybe double check yourself that you aren't applying double standards.

Suppose the difference is I actually TR vex

[Enigma]

Then who is the alternative for the day? CJ?? Because CJ is also due to be replaced.
That being said, I'm quite over D1 and am becoming somewhat apathetic to who is lynched today (still prefer frank) and rather just want to see a lynch before the deadline.

[Enigma]

pedit: hi ejj

[Enigma]

What's bad about the bolded? I acknowledge her posting was weird but overall the reasons to townread her outweigh the reasons to scumread her.

As for enigma yes we just finished our first game together as far as I recall and yes he was town and maybe he grabbed some pagetops there but he was not on a personal mission to grab pagetops like he seems to be on here. It felt more casual/situational in that game instead of deliberate.

Dude when the game first started I made a few page top grabs, mainly to get back at ofrhz for taunting me pregame about pagetops. Outside of the first rl day I've only made two page top posts (because I kinda got bored and forgot about it). The fact that you are still pushing this one issue whilst largely ignoring the rest of my post confounds me.

I'm not so keen on lynching the ejji if he is making an effort rn, so would prefer to give him the opportunity to catchup and post, and I'll try to re-read his slot tomorrow.

I will do this in the meantime though
VOTE: Bujaber

[Enigma]

Vc

Fuck I should have taken that one just to make a point

[Enigma]

VOTE: enigma
let's do this.

Quoting my posts cuz part of the reasoning is there and they are easier to find

Spoiler:

If skitter is still scumreading me at eod, correct play is to lynch me and then lynch her, and scum.her is probably aware of that and therefore probably won't try to mislynch me

I mean that is a bit reachy regarding lynching skitter if she scumreads you (correctly) and you end up being lynched. Why are you suggesting the correct play is to lynch her after you are lynched (regardless of flip) - yes scum can bus, but (town) skitter can and should also be able to scumread you (correctly or incorrectly) without dooming her to being PLd after you are lynched?

I don’t get the point of that post. You seem to be implying that ruru should reason while taking her own scum flip into consideration, which makes absolutely no sense regardless of her alignment.
How is her not doing that reachy?
And the post is a bit difficult to read, but you seem to be talking only to scum!ruru here, while assuming that her actions are town motivated. (talking about the: “you can be bussed, but it’s unfair if you’re trying to get town!skitt MLed after your scum flip”)
That’s a weird attitude towards making reads tbh.

I haven't read the whole game, but the last posts I've read from him (the early interactions with ruru) felt forced and didn't really strike me as sth that would come from a town pov.

Spoiler:

Welcome to A50 theories ... true madness, this is why I take them with a grain of salt ahaha

A50, re Sky's avatar do you think she changed it just because of this specific game and the wagon on her (considering she is playing in several other games rn)?

Well, I haven't checked her other ongoing games and I dunno if she said she'd be watching avatar in them, so I can't return a reliable answer. However, I do think that post had something to do with that avatar edit in this game, and thus more inclined to buy it. After all, if I lose to her because of THAT move I'd still be laughing hard at how cute of a move it was.

You think that she thought to changed her profile pic, because she said she was watching avatar in a post? Ahaha, gotta hand it - this is far beyond the bounds of my reasoning lol .... brain can not compute .... guess I gotta just leave Sky as is for now.

This was a serious post, right?
If you didn’t get the logic, what was your reason for wanting to leave sky alone?

I didn't also like the reaction to A50's TR on sky, it makes more sense coming from a scum (who doesn't get the logic, but is afraid to fight a strong townie) than town imo.


That's not an extremely confident read, but if I were to choose among the people in my lower branch, he is the one I SR the most among them rn

Briefly because a bit busy,

I approached ruru with a bit of hesitation because last game she fake claimed PGO at beginning of D1 (as town) and I called BS (as town). Partly due to that, I nearly got lynched. So I was trying to get a clear understanding of her intentions this game.

Regarding Sky, well I suck at early game scumhunting but rather I work through associations. So I usually just fluff through D1 and then start pushing a bit harder and firming up reads after we have flips.

Should hopefully have more time towards end of the week.

[Enigma]

meh, there weren't many posts from HWS at the beginning of the day, but I'll look at his ISO when I get home

and enigma, who do you want to lynch?

Should be clear in my posts.

My lynch pool a few days ago was {Frank, CJ, GE} before all the replacements. Usually prefer to give replacements to scumread but somewhat lurker slots a bit of time so I can form a read, unless the entrance is really underwhelming.

Am currently voting BuJ I believe, so I don't mind that. GE and HWS also don't mind.
Tbh can be convinced rather easily to dump my vote somewhere as I just want to see D1 over and some flips.

[Enigma]

WHAT WERE WE SAYING ABOUT THERE BEING NO NMS IN THIS GAME????

[Enigma]

Someone tell me where to vote pls, should I vote gamma or the duck?
We have just 1 day left before deadline and no plurality

[Enigma]

Someone tell me where to vote pls, should I vote gamma or the duck?
We have just 1 day left before deadline and no plurality

uh
hammering that {town, town} mislynch dichotomy
this isn't a good look

Not really, I was hoping someone would make a suggestion (I would have followed it) and then probs figure out the significance of that once we have some flips. But no one is biting

VOTE: duck/tw
because you have the most votes right now

[Enigma]

VOTE: NM
Trollylololol

HURT: duck

[Enigma]

first

[Enigma]

Well initial thoughts are ruru is town based on the last minute unvote.

Interesting turn of night events. No vig maybe, unless duck is BP/traitor (but don't claim vig if so). Also feel like with the NK target, scum were TPR hunting so we could expect they picked a few modifiers?

[Enigma]

Hihi all, I'm travelling most of next week, so posting will be sporadic.

Hypo-inno skitter.
---

Looking at A50s posts he was TRing duck, and was convinced CJ was scum. His scum pool was Frank (ejji) + CJV (NM) + HWS (Alonzo). Potentially his reads placed him as a threat. On the other hand, maybe nothing in it as now skitter mentioned it, he could have been seen as softing PR.

---

Ejji end of day post was bad. I mean I can't understand his reasoning for his NM vote, apart from the wagon being "pure"?

---

I'm town, I was gonna deathtunnel A50 today, so I need to re read and come up with a plan B

This, combined with A50's read list, combined with A50 flipping green, combined with HWS' completely neutral play - puts the slot in a bad start for me. Will revaluate after more posts from Alonzo, but first impressions a rather meh

---

No idea about duck meta, so won't partake in that discussion. Plus I'm pretty meh towards meta.

if a vig exists I just trust the vig not to be stupid. if I could hammer I would :p

This felt a bit :/ Considering sky's play also and the slot's ISO (comments on vig/bp), could kinda be felt like trying to mock a vig and being vig bait (i.e. scum/traitor).

---

Presenting today's scum pool of {HWS/Alonzo, ejji and duck}
TR on {ruru, vex, creature}
Null on others

[Enigma]

^quick comment on the hypo-inno, it's not a hard clear

[Enigma]

Duck your first post D2 is to comment on how one of my posts is scummy, then you blank vote ejji, then you somehow decide you would prefer to vote me (based on D1 VC)?

Some chain of thought on this would be nice.

[Enigma]

Duck, I can't really reply to you or really even engage in a discussion of well as most of your explanation is hardly clear. Like I went through your ISO to try and make a response but I really don't know how to respond to the below:
"gutscum"
"guarded feeling"
"pings scummy"
"worded funny"

Let me know if you want me to comment on anything specific.

[Enigma]

giving awkward reasons for a survivalistic deadline hammer on scum is towny fmpov: town are afraid if it flips green they'll be next, whereas scum know it will flip red

I mean for me it was awkward as well, but also the bolded was kinda what made it seem weird to me. Like there was a vc just before his post and he should have known he was hammering? Anyways just waiting for him to come back from v/la.

Ehh, I have stuff to post, but it's mostly unreadable cuz I haven’t edited it yet
Page 19 and have to go in a sec, so I’ll vote now

VOTE: NM
that's not actually a bad lynch. I don't really have a good grasp of cee's meta, but there isn't anything in his ISO that would make me change my mind about his slot.
From what I've seen, increased care for saying his opinions should be scum indicative for cee, but he seemed to be in a catchup-mode most of the time, so idrk if I should be even reading that...
I don't really have a strong read on him
I think I was also the only SR in his read-list and I think it's kinda funny, but idk if that's even AI for him
still, not a bad lynch imo... and his wagon still looks really pure :/

If I manage to come back today before EoD, I’ll post a catchup and if not, I guess I’ll do it d2
Cuz I really doubt I’ll get killed with that many people SRing me

[Enigma]

Anyways some thoughts on the D1 lynch.

First CJ/NM wagon
ceejayvinoya (5): the worst, Creature, Almost50, ruru, skitter30 (L-2)

Second NM/CJ wagon
Not_Mafia (7): the worst, ruru, skitter30, Vex Vience, Creature, Enigma, ejjinami LYNCH

--
The wagons have largely the same characters. The first wagon was a viable lynch and tbh could have gone through.
If duck was trying to bus and then run the "but i don't bus" defence, starting both the wagons would have been the optimal play. CJ was kinda useless to the scum team, and with NM repping in, it would have been PLd before MYLO/LYLO so it was likely always a dead slot ...
Given how fast the wagons were changing, I also wouldn't put it past scum to just stay off the wagon in hopes that a counterwagon could form. Looking at the last EoD1 vc if GE is town, I would look very closely at HWS/Alonzo + BuJ.

[Enigma]

And I want to do this for now
VOTE: Alonzo
Completely underwhelming so far (no reads, no content, entrance terrible) + HWS was scummy

[Enigma]

Apparently you can't make a link to the ISO page? Whatever, you can read his ISO.
Limited content, and looking at his comments re A50, kinda awkward now that we know the slot is town

[Enigma]

Teehee

[Enigma]

HWS was TOWNY AF

Links pls

[Enigma]

Why do you keep reiterating that you would have tunneled a50, there is like no point other than to inflate your own ego. We know he is town ....

[Enigma]

Forget HWS, you'l be dealing with me today pudding.

HWS was TOWNY AF

Yeh ok, let's focus more on you than HWS now. You are pretty scummy.

Has anyone played with Alonzo before btw?

[Enigma]

Yes I did

Well it’s more if is this erratic behaviour is normal for him.

[Enigma]

Pdodge. Sorry travelling for work and busy, will be here either tonight or tomorrow night.

[Enigma]

Ugggh activity has been dead, sorry I haven't helped the situation.
I guess I am happy to lynch out of tw, Alonzo, ejji (replacement pending), BuJ, and GE

The fact that wagons are all stalling is curious for figuring where scum are parking their votes. I imagine at least one, if not both, of the the four people with votes are scum and votes are stalling because scum are probably not bussing their partners (already one scum down, maybe even traitor around?) and not actively pushing hard for a mislynch either (just let inactivity kill town).

I expect there is probably one scum on the GE wagon (regardless of GE's alignment) just considering the game state of mehness. And if GE is town, there is definitely one scum on the wagon. Also, the fact that GE has been pretty ehh about defending himself considering being L-2 and showing a bit of apathy actually leads me to think he is more likely to be town (though not sure about his position on the Alonzo wagon).

Whilst writing this post, I could probably narrow down my preferred lynch pool for today to Alonzo, tw and maybe BuJ. Suppose happy with where my vote is now.

Not sure what to do with ejji given the incoming replacement. Unless the replacement is pretty mindblowing, probably keen to see that slot lynched soonish as well.

[Enigma]

@skitter: This is gonna sound

very

anti-town, but I have to say it now because:

(a) We're running out of time
(b) The ongoing conversation is becoming a bit frustrating
(c) It is too obvious by now anyway

tw suspects Gamma might be a PR. I mean, Gamma could very well be scum too, but when it's "either scum or a PR playing scummy" you know you don't want to go their on D1.

Also, the focus on the Vig and their shot is making everybody disregard all other possibilities. Maybe we don't have a Vig but we have a Tracker? In that case the Tracker can verify whether Gamma acts at night and go from there.

I mean, I agree with that many possibilities and not even knowing how many PRs we have it's kind of impossible for us to figure the right night actions, but the PR(s) themselves will know what to do knowing -at least- what their specific role(s) are.

Duck, comment on this for me pls?

[Enigma]

Hi I’m here will read and post hopefully over the next day. Sorry all

[Enigma]

Hi catching up and responding to various posts as I read through

Hot take: vca tells me one or two of scum are in vex/skitter/enigma
Postcounts tell me skitter/ruru/the worst/vex are town
This is a cheap read but I want my slot to be readable and for this game to be playable as fast as possible

VOTE: enigma

hypo-claim no result (either roleblocked or checked A50)

If you are looking at EoD1, I would have voted anything because I was ready for D1 to be over. Plus if I was scum, I would like to think I would just lurk and hope for no majority rather than vote a scumbuddy - like as scum I would gain no cred (and probably lose cred) from voting NM considering the game state.

[Enigma]

who plays scum self-sacrificially what

I'll need more than gut on enigma to townread him
Or at least I'll need enigma to come make my gut feel it too

fair point re:HWS but I think that if he was scum that makes it more likely the other scum tries to hop on the wagon, knowing that if they don't it'll be a pure wagon. Either way I think a scum on the wagon is likely, and that if I'm right on that it's either enigma or someone widely townread like vex or skitter
Leaning the former because of the fact that town functioned well enough to hit scum
What was the case on the red slot? Lurkiness? Or like a real case someone put forward?

I think the VCA needs to consider the game state. Part of my reasoning for voting NM was just to get a flip. I don't recall being convinced on CJV (or that slot) being scum, especially with the lack of content from that slot. All three players in that slot barely had any posts, so I didn't really have a read - a few others were more convinced (CJV meta) but I didn't see that. On NM, I'm quite neutral on keeping him around as he can sometimes have good reads later, though he is a bit hard to read himself (which is a liability so don't mind not seeing him endgame).

[Enigma]

good points
who's scum and why

At this stage still considering Alonzo and duck.

And I want to do this for now
VOTE: Alonzo
Completely underwhelming so far (no reads, no content, entrance terrible) + HWS was scummy

On Alonzo, nothing has really changed since this. Also, the A50 comment from him (and continued persistence on it) is weird.

Duck in part because of Sky's slot. I also can't quite figure out how he was so sure on the CJV slot because absolutely no content and CJV siteflaked, so probably a bit of suspicion about bussing. Also his comment about the vig at EoD1 felt vig baity.

[Enigma]

Also, on scum reads forgot your slot which I still think has potential to be scum. Ejji and frank were rather scummy, though usually don't mind to give replacements a bit of time to settle in so I can reread the slot.

[Enigma]

Yep, feeling like duck is scum bp, and if so GE is probably his scumbuddy.
VOTE: tw
HURT: tw

[Enigma]

You are literally begging to be vigged in 2077 and the only conclusion is you are bp.

[Enigma]

Like as I understand the setup only the goons get to decide what mods to take so 2086 and the modifier logic is a bit off. 2083 makes sense though doesn’t clear slot d3 if we leave duck today as could be a potential gambit there is no vig.

Meh still don’t like duck but now looking at it, is a risky play if he is scum/bp/traitor.

[Enigma]

guys why are we punishing tw for flipping scum in our reads?
Like if we flip green once or twice and we're confused then we should probably challenge our assumptions,,,
But until then anyone who's pushing tw for TMI-ing the lynch is also just punishing good town play if he's town (which RNG says he is likely to be)

Like one time tw survived till near endgame as SK by actually shooting most of the scumteam
If he's scum and wants his own team dead let's sheep him, not kill him

anyway
I'm still not totally caught up but I don't understand tw scumreads rn

IMO RNG is not a valid excuse for townreading duck.
Bussing one partner is a thing. Bussing both partners a bit more risky. CJV/NM was a doomed slot.
Not sure how duck read CJV so strongly when he was site flaking and barely had any posts here.

[Enigma]

tw's posting on this page is weird but I don't really think it makes him a bp goon

like he's just talking about optimal play and I do think it's optimal because bp goon is just objectively unlikely to exist compared to traitor or even roleblocker

#goodposting

also I honestly don't think a scumteam of MWNN + Skygazer + someone is bad enough to take BP goon lmao

can we take a moment to appreciate how objectively wolfy Enigma's posting here has been

Well my line of thinking has been that scum probably took a few mods since the A50 kill was a bit awkward and could be TPR hunting ...

[Enigma]

What does tmi mean?
Re doubting duck’s reads, probably has to do with his read on me ...

[Enigma]

Yep, feeling like duck is scum bp, and if so GE is probably his scumbuddy.
VOTE: tw
HURT: tw

uh why do you think this exactly?

It was a mix of duck's comment EoD1; duck commenting about traitor or vig being roleblocked, but omitting bp; sky's weird play; GE's poor reasoning and sheeping onto my wagon.
Though it was probably a bit knee jerk looking back at it. Don't think duck would have been so obvious as to oppsies forget bp if he is bp + the mechanics play he mentioned is reasonable.

[Enigma]

Like I feel there are two distinct blocs with different lynch preferences forming atm.
{Creature, skitter, Korina, ruru, me}
{Elephant, GE, BuJ, tw, Alonzo}

I TR most of the first bloc actually ... just leaving this thought here as I think it would be interesting to look at once we have more flips.

[Enigma]

VOTE COUNT 1.28

Almost50 (0):

HeWhoSwims (1):

Almost50

the worst (1):

Not_Mafia

ruru (0):

BuJaber (0):

Not_Mafia (7):

the worst, ruru, skitter30, Vex Vience, Creature, Enigma, ejjinami

LYNCH

Enigma (0):

ejjinami (0):

Creature (0):

Gamma Emerald (2):

HeWhoSwims, BuJaber

skitter30 (0):

Vex Vience (0):

Not Voting (1):

Gamma Emerald

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.
Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-09-14 16:30:00)

Other

:
- skitter30 V/LA Fridays and Saturdays
- HeWhoSwims still needs to be replaced

wait wow let's talk more about this
@anyone thinking scum didn't bus
NM flipped and then so did A50
That means you think scum:
A] were both voting Gamma Emerald
or
B] were Gamma Emerald and one of the people voting Gamma Emerald (meaning only two votes at EOD were not on scum)

So scum like almost definitely bussed? Which is already the conclusion to make when they shoot off wagon...
Which I guess makes my argument that tw didn't bus sound dumber
Maybe it is dumber
I still think he's a suboptimal lynch for riding the slot across two wagons and all the way to lynch

But since yeah, scum almost definitely bussed, my argument for it being one of enigma/skitter/ruru/vex makes sense again
I still think enigma is the most likely, but I've kind of been operating on "this looks enough like townskitter" without going in depth there
ditto ruru, though I don't know ruru's meta much at all (just sheeping it)

Like @world what do you think about this eod vc? Gamma looks sorta towny for it

Ehhhhhh so like I mentioned there was absolutely no value for me voting the L-1 here, especially if I was scum knowing that NM would flip red. I would gain zero town cred ...why would I just not lurk and let someone else vote or hope that a NL went through? At that stage I would have voted anyone (and it would be anti-town not to given the overwhelming apathy which you missed out on), and probably just my bad luck that NM flipped red making my L-1 awkward. I wasn't very confident on NM flipping red anyways

[Enigma]

guys why are we punishing tw for flipping scum in our reads?
Like if we flip green once or twice and we're confused then we should probably challenge our assumptions,,,
But until then anyone who's pushing tw for TMI-ing the lynch is also just punishing good town play if he's town (which RNG says he is likely to be)

Like one time tw survived till near endgame as SK by actually shooting most of the scumteam
If he's scum and wants his own team dead let's sheep him, not kill him

anyway
I'm still not totally caught up but I don't understand tw scumreads rn

IMO RNG is not a valid excuse for townreading duck.
Bussing one partner is a thing. Bussing both partners a bit more risky. CJV/NM was a doomed slot.
Not sure how duck read CJV so strongly when he was site flaking and barely had any posts here.

This is agenda-ey
anyone who disagrees is bad
@Korina @Creature thoughts on Enigma's play like right now?

Like what agenda?
All I see is your agenda trying to convince people to vote for me.

[Enigma]

tw's posting on this page is weird but I don't really think it makes him a bp goon

like he's just talking about optimal play and I do think it's optimal because bp goon is just objectively unlikely to exist compared to traitor or even roleblocker

#goodposting

also I honestly don't think a scumteam of MWNN + Skygazer + someone is bad enough to take BP goon lmao

can we take a moment to appreciate how objectively wolfy Enigma's posting here has been

Well my line of thinking has been that scum probably took a few mods since the A50 kill was a bit awkward and could be TPR hunting ...

who reads A50 as non VT there?
when do I ever kill A50 there?
just engage w me a little here because your theory that I'm scum is super porous

A50 made a post about you TPRing GE sometime on D1. And then you don't comment on it D1, and then you completely backflip on this D2 by voting GE. Then you didn't comment on it when I asked you today. Can't quite formulate something exact off it, but it stood out in my mind as awkward.

So scum can take three mods - NM flipping goon doesn't eliminate the likelihood they took three mods (e.g. recruit traitor, day talk, something else).
Dunno how duck thinks and why scum!you might choose A50 ... a possible reason would be scumteam thought A50 was a TPR but mehh not sure.

[Enigma]

started

W A L L
O F
W I F O M
A N D
S E L F
M E T A

this is an odd response

I feel like 2136 was pretty town, somewhat reminiscent of zoronos in 728

also it's not wifom that he's posting more than he'd have to as scum on an anonymous alt

Agree, he's being more transparent than he has to and as scum it would just put him at increased risk

[Enigma]

guys why are we punishing tw for flipping scum in our reads?
Like if we flip green once or twice and we're confused then we should probably challenge our assumptions,,,
But until then anyone who's pushing tw for TMI-ing the lynch is also just punishing good town play if he's town (which RNG says he is likely to be)

Like one time tw survived till near endgame as SK by actually shooting most of the scumteam
If he's scum and wants his own team dead let's sheep him, not kill him

anyway
I'm still not totally caught up but I don't understand tw scumreads rn

IMO RNG is not a valid excuse for townreading duck.
Bussing one partner is a thing. Bussing both partners a bit more risky. CJV/NM was a doomed slot.
Not sure how duck read CJV so strongly when he was site flaking and barely had any posts here.

IMO RNG is not a valid excuse for townreading duck.

@anyone

What does RNG mean in this context?

bump

Elephant said tw is more probable to be town because of randomness (more chance to roll town than scum). I'm pointing out it is invalid because following that everyone is more probably to be town because of randomness...

[Enigma]

Do you think I'm a wolf here?
did you think my push on cjv d1 was actually SvS?
assume I'm starting to think you're town if that's ok, I'm keen to see where your head's at.

pedit: yeah I TPR read GE d1. he had that non wolfy survivalistic vibe to me. I thought I might be wrong on that earlier d2 when he got a lot wolfier but I'm actually just thinking I was wrong and he's Just Town

No, don't strongly feel you are wolf. Definitely don't class you as town. Scum side of null maybe? Like I alluded to earlier, you are kinda in the sort/deal with before LYLO.
I think I'm just kinda lost on the game state in general (mainly replacements making conflicting reads) and there is something wrong with my read lists.

[Enigma]

Hi everyone
I’m still back to back travelling for work for the next two weeks so posting may be sporadic.

I’m l-2 already wow :/ uggh, bet that at least one scum on my wagon already ...
Will post more tonight. If there are specific questions for me pls note them as my brief skim I’m not sure what others would like me to respond to

[Enigma]

Hi, so very sorry for being away past few days. Had an incredibly packed work agenda and I'm wrecked.
It's finally the weekend. Gunna sleep tonight, and catch up tomorrow.

[Enigma]

Hi I'm reading and writing from start of D3 onwards so thoughts and comments may change throughout the post(s). Am going to post in blocks so it does not become a wall.

[Enigma]

Sort of annoyed Gamma was the lynch

This looks bad - kinda like an ohh look it was a mislynch why didn't you listen to me.

@elephant
You seem to ignore that you at EoD2 you actually said GE was one of your strongest scum reads .... so why are you annoyed when you thought Gamma was potential scum?

K so I've finished reading EOD1-EarlyD2 and I'm at somewhere like

{Creature, me}
{skitter30, the worst}
{BuJaber, ruru}
{Alonzo, Vex/Kor} - null
{Enigma, Gamma}
{Not yet able to form super hard scumreads but I'm trying}

Can someone make a case for why I should have a [insert your read here] on Korina? Really struggling to see much beyond like the number of posts and some early messy setup spec
Maybe I just haven't found the parts of the thread where he really TOWNED IT UP but, please show me

pedit: sure, I don't actually think he's going to double bus two days in a row, that was more of a "Don't lynch till you've BoP'd" (semi-joking) argument
It's more like I don't think he's an optimal lynch d1 when he was so clearly a big reason why someone flipped red d2
Nobody seems to be considering that tw might just have good reads - you yourself admit the slot was doomed, so why is it TMI for tw to scumread the slot?

[Enigma]

{Tw, enigma, elephant, alonzo}
If I'm not cop that's my scumpool.
This is my scumpool if I'm cop:
{Enigma, elephant}

VOTE: Enigma

Any reason me over elephant?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMM

VOTE: Enigma

@BuJ, thoughts on this? Do you think I'm scum and elephant is my scum partner?

[Enigma]

skitter is still a top townread, as is the worst

working on more thorough vca and re-reading more of the thread because idk what else to be doing rn

I'll note here that you've basically cashed in any d1 towncred by your gamma vote
my inno on you notwithstanding I don't know that I have strong reasoning remaining to defend your slot
So
Be towny

These are only a bit apart and are in direct contradiction of each other... So do you think tw is scum? (sorry if you answer this later)

[Enigma]

I'll note regarding those townreading enigma for his EOD1 play that I've seen scum do "I don't care who's lynched let's just lynch" near the end of the day to look towny - if he thought his partner was likely to flip regardless, might as well play it that way

BuJaber vote placements aren't stellar at first glance but I thought I townread some of his posts, and nothing damning has come up in vca yet

@enigma how do the flips affect your reads?

I actually don't mind GE got lynched, because he would have been a disaster to sort late game and would be unlikely to have been NKd anyways. Because I was the alternate wagon, scum probably had it easy with mislynches in either direction so I kinda suspect they had a rather low-key presence EoD. Whilst duck's hammer looks meh, from my PoV as the other wagon it doesn't look so bad since I think scum would just sit back and chill. Actually makes me read your slot a bit more red really once considering EoD2.

I’m l-2 already wow :/ uggh, bet that at least one scum on my wagon already ...

@engima: who do you think it is?

BuJ and/or elephant. More so elephant actually. Somehow TR duck a bit (knowing he repped out, but having not read most the other pages since this quote).

[Enigma]

The first time CJV was up for a lynch, this was Enigma's set of thoughts

The speed at which the CJ wagon formed is a bit off putting .. the VCA will be interesting if/when he flips

CJ and NWMM are so contentless I can barely make a read, and I don't even know if CJ has read the whole thread yet ...
Reading Open 733 where CJ was scum (with tw), CJ actually (pretends) to scumhunt a bit, actively pushes mislynches, and interacts with the gamestate. Open 725 is a bit of a mess to read, but CJ feels also a bit more actively driving lynches (and he was bussing his partner AP).

Maybe part of why I'm hesitant, in addition to CJ simply having zero content, is a lack of CJ voting on someone so far and advancing the game state. I've also mislynched CJ in other games, partly because he was lurky and didn't get a chance to defend himself. But I've also seen town CJ defend himself as the lynch target when he was more active.

So meta wise I don't quite see the picture on CJ.

IDK what I'm getting from cjv is pretty similar to the current best meta tell on scum!Creature

normally it feels like he's mislynched because he lurks for ages then says what's actually on his mind without stepping anyone through his thought processes and his reads are actually often absolutely fine it's just he doesn't always explain them

here he's taken quite a lot of time to produce incredibly safe reads with reasoning and then occasionally floats in and says the game is moving too fast

I just kinda want something that blows my mind, or a lynch

I'm also bad at reading posts so just properly read this. After my previous post defending with CJ, I do agree that this is somewhat scummy. Do you (tw, and AP) think his activity is comparable to his past scum games? My meta dive was really quick, though I kinda felt CJ was a bit more active in those games.

Tbh my preference is still frank as he has yet to satisfactory alleviate the scum concerns on him.
Would not be opposed to CJ vig shot, maybe because I'm not convinced about his alignment (and maybe there is/isn't a vig) but also because I'm kinda interested to know how CJ flips just to figure out the deal with wagon dynamics lol.

Need to read Gamma properly.

Would like to see more from Bujaber and HWS as not sure about their slots.

And what is your conclusion from this? And why did you vote alonzo in your subsequent post?

[Enigma]

Skipped some replies to tw's chain of posts on me on pg 98 since he won't reply, but let me know if anyone has specifics they would like me to address

[Enigma]

TRing tw slot a bit from past few pages, proper read reserved until performer (hi, thx for replacing in) posts.

---

Also, can I get a summary of what's happened so far? That would be great.

D1
We compromised lynched on cjv and he flipped scum. There were multiple wagons going/dissipating, and several replacements and huge apathy. The frank/ejji/elephant slot was the other potential lynch fmpov.
tw and A50 called cjv on scum based on meta (despite siteflake cjv and lack of posts, and drove the lynch).

D2
GE plays bad, doesn't really defend himself, gets lynched.

---

@performer, any read on my slot? duck tunnelled me a lot past few days.

[Enigma]

Sorry never really summarised my reads.

At this stage for scum:
Elephant prime candidate. Alonzo/Buj solid maybes.

[Enigma]

Still maybe worried about deep wolf skitter (non-goon fue to hypo inno), but suppose now I think the trick is to look out for apathy late game (from her scum PYP X/Y) .. if she is alive then

[Enigma]

Massclaim tomorrow.
Creature was NK meaning scum will likely NK based on hypo-innos next. If any investigatives exist they should be given one more day to get results.

And since it doesn't look like we have vig/bg one investigative is guaranteed.

We have a minimum of two confirmed TPRs. One was IC. We know there is at least one within {goon cop, rb, tracker}, if we make deductions based on night actions no bg or vig. This does not mean that we have at least one investigative guaranteed (unless you know scum took mods, in which case there is at least 2 TPRs existing).

Am I reading too much into this?

- Goon Cop
- Roleblocker
- Tracker

- Bodyguard

- Vigilante

- Innocent Child (reveal at start of day one)

[Enigma]

Hi, so imo NL and mass claim tomorrow might not be such a bad idea since we have to do it eventually.

We are 8 rn: 6 town 2 scum.
If we mislynch, we become 4 town 2 scum where the optimal play is nl d4 as it is mylo. NL today is better than tomorrow as better opportunities for tpr tonight.

Which is actually kinda what BuJ said, but I needed to think about it myself

[Enigma]

Ok nvm I had a brain fart. Do you think I’m scum with elephant?

[Enigma]

Fine with mass claim, I prefer ruru later in the claim line.

Can we put tw/performer either before/after me? Something like this?
bujaber > irrel > enigma > performer > alonzo > korina > ruru > skitter

[Enigma]

Ps I think it’s best if town don’t cc today, or at least until the claim process has finished - we still need to decide if we will lynch or not today. Make an strategic decision on counter claiming, especially if you are investigative, based on other claimed TPRs.

[Enigma]

Heyo I'm VT. Performer next?

Will post some tomorrow, or whenever I finish this report ...

[Enigma]

Remaining to claim Alzono, ruru and skitter

[Enigma]

Hello responding to prod. Sorry about lack of activity, time is evaporating with work. Its the weekend finally. Will catchup in next 24h

[Enigma]

Hello responding from pg 106 over the next few hours, not having read subsequent pages.
Also, no more work travel for next 3 weeks (fingers crossed) so activity should be better

---

Ruru claim I believe because I thinks she was crumbing it

massclaim today might seem mechanically stupid but I have good reasons for it

I also don't think Alzono would fake claim rb, and regardless this is something that should be solvable before endgame if he is fake claiming (i.e. not dying).

So scum pool likely within the claimed VTs.

[Enigma]

further explanation - basically he voted a tpr - alonzo, my slot (green), GE (flipped green), didn't have nm (red flip) as scumread from what I skimmed through. That's condemning .

This makes me really wonder about his ISO pattern - if this means irrel/eji & buj/antihero are actually town then, because right now I have buj as an sr. But I'm not super fond of associative hunting as Alonzo knows from that 1 newbie game...so it should be shelved for another day I guess.

1. How would I know Alzono is a tpr, and if I was scum why would I not just nk him? Alzono's early play, plus his predecessor's could hardly be called town. It is literally only after the my post above that I am shifting him from null/scum to town.
2. Don't know if your slot is green
3. Yeh I can't read NM (or his lurker predecessors), sorry not a genius

VOTE: enigmaSo I was trying to find in my ISO and enigma's after I replaced in, why tw tunneled him after I questioned him on that. No answer from him.

If you read my ISO you would also notice that I have no idea why tw was tunnelling me and I'm still not really sure why. Isn't this something you are better placed to answer anyways

e.g.

Duck, I can't really reply to you or really even engage in a discussion of well as most of your explanation is hardly clear. Like I went through your ISO to try and make a response but I really don't know how to respond to the below:
"gutscum"
"guarded feeling"
"pings scummy"
"worded funny"

Let me know if you want me to comment on anything specific.

[Enigma]

I was just thinking if we lynch scum today, we will mechanically win this. Assuming Alonzo and ruru are not lying, we have a lynch pool of six today. Alzono lives another day, assuming ruru actives bp tonight. Alzono can hard clear two slots before he is killed if there is only one scum remaining. In that case, we mechanically win even if we mislynch the next day.

Spoiler: if we lynch correctly today

town:scum ratio
6-1 (2 conf town) lynch scum
5-1 (2 conf town) nk ruru, alonzo confs 1 town
4-1 (2 conf town) mislynch
3-1 (2 conf town) nk alonzo, alzono can confs 1 town even if he dies by telling us who he is targeting
2-1 (2 conf town) gg scum, town wins

If we mislynch today, we should no lynch tomorrow as it is mylo. But this still means Alzono gets two shots at rbing, with a successful hit preventing the NK and getting a hard guilty.

[Enigma]

Catch up not over - I went and got drunk last night so I'm still on pg 106 somewhere and am planning on catching up more tonight.

[Enigma]

Why would you suspect there would be an investigative to protect? What if there wasn't??

I consider dying for creature negative utility, period, because I don't get mislynched either and he wasn't playing the game

it's not about saving my bg ability it's about not dying for a player who isn't doing anything.

Reading through pg109 I just want to comment that I see reason in ruru's targeting. Like creature wasn't being a particularly useful TPR, the conf!town is not so useful early game with there is a larger number of unknowns. Plus creature didn't die N1 so probs indicative of how scum saw him as a threat/useful.

On that thought chain, creature's scum reads EOD1 were:

leaves Almost50, Gamma, ejji and NotMafia

A50 town
GE town
NM scum
Ejj/elephant ??

Actually gives elephant +town a bit from that now.

[Enigma]

Also just thought of something - if alonzo is telling the truth, that means enigma is cleared. 1 scum died already, the only other 1 who can do an nk already did one on n2....so alonzo blocking enigma = enig town.

I think it also makes sense if alonzo was fake claiming & was actually traitor, then his rb on enigma on n2 would've made sense as scum fake claim? So in that case, enigma is scum and alonzo = traitor? Because looking at enigma's ISO alone - you can say I'm insane but I'm an old school/traditional town player - his ISO is still very suspicious .

Alonzo flew from not changing his stance on enigma being scum, to tw/ruru, to bujaber.
Something isn't right here.

This doesn't clear me btw (if Alonzo isn't fake claiming). Plus Alzono fake claiming doesn't make sense - it has essentially signed his death warrant if he doesn't get NKd and he was not under pressure to claim since he wasn't in today's lynch pool and I don't really expect him to be the player who has made such a gambit.

I actually started to TR your slot a bit earlier, but considering how you (and your predecessor) are training me so much when it is quite vital for scum to drive a mislynch today makes me retract that read.

[Enigma]

VOTE COUNT 1.28

Almost50 (0):

HeWhoSwims (1):

Almost50

the worst (1):

Not_Mafia

ruru (0):

BuJaber (0):

Not_Mafia (7):

the worst, ruru, skitter30, Vex Vience, Creature, Enigma, ejjinami

LYNCH

Enigma (0):

ejjinami (0):

Creature (0):

Gamma Emerald (2):

HeWhoSwims, BuJaber

skitter30 (0):

Vex Vience (0):

Not Voting (1):

Gamma Emerald

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.
Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-09-14 16:30:00)

Other

:
- skitter30 V/LA Fridays and Saturdays
- HeWhoSwims still needs to be replaced

If we look at d1 vc, the only person still alive who didn't vote nm, is bujaber.
Looking at who's on the wagon, it doesn't make sense for enigma to be doing L-1 to a partner on d1....while eji is now irrel. I can't see it making sense for irrel to hammer a partner on d1 either unless really necessary.
So maybe it's 1 or both of skitter/Korina in the middle of the wagon??
Maybe scum wanted to cut their losses so they distanced via bussing - but I don't see how both partners would've been on nm to bus him on d1.

VOTE COUNT 2.13

Alonzo (0):

the worst (2):

Enigma, Alonzo

ruru (0):

BuJaber (0):

Enigma (2):

Irrelephant11, Gamma Emerald

Irrelephant11 (0):

Creature (0):

Gamma Emerald (6):

Creature, skitter30, ruru, Korina, BuJaber, the worst

HAMMER

skitter30 (0):

Korina (0):

Not Voting (0):

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to kill.
Day 2 ends in (expired on 2018-10-02 10:30:00)

Other:

- skitter30 V/LA Fridays and Saturdays
- BuJaber V/LA through Sunday
- Korina V/LA through Monday
- skitter30 V/LA through Tuesday
- Were you all impressed with how quickly I locked the game thread?

For d2 end of day vc, enig was getting enough heat for irrel & GE to voted him - not only that, but alonzo felt he was suspect enough to rb him. It's not outlandish to think that enigma perhaps realized that he was being suspected a lot and (if they have a 3rd goon) wanted his other living partner to do the nk on n2, on creature. This way alonzo would get a false clear on enigma.
What else I noticed was buj, skitter, korina - all claimed vts and all voted GE for d2 lynch, quite safely in middle of the wagon. What's worrisome is that GE a veteran player, thought someone else was scummier than any of the 6 on his wagon... wth?

I'm not sure if this is a tunnelling mentality or scum driving a mislynch.

Also, you could say this about your slot being scum:
D1 - duck bussed NM (a useless slot) for town credit
D2 - duck's hammer was terrible

[Enigma]

@ele: let's see...
Possible scum teams:

If enigma flips town:
- ruru + you
- ruru + alonzo
- you + alonzo
And by PoE performer with any of {you, ruru, alonzo}
If enigma flips town then ruru dies at night (pretty much confirms alonzo town):
- you + performer

If enigma flips scum:
- you
- ruru
- performer
And alonzo by PoE
If enigma flips scum and ruru dies at night:
- you
- performer


Without getting two mislynches in a row I'm not considering korina.. pretty confident TR there. And skitter is just town.

-1
(Also, this makes me rule out elephant BuJ based on how badly this post has turned out)
One more also, you don't consider the dimension of traitor recruited/not recruited which is key to understanding pairings - kinda feels faked bc of that.

- ruru + alonzo

this is probably a bit indicative of faked reads

+1

I think me not being included in that analysis is indicative of his read on me being faked (ie this is an example of abnormally strong reads, that he's considering you/alonzo as being more likely than me being scum at all)

+1

[Enigma]

Still waiting on enigma replies, he's lurked hard today. Mod can we get deadline extension or deadline pause until a replacement?

FYI I've been on 11 flights and 3 continents in the past 2.5 weeks for work. Like sorry for lack of posting, but really NAI and would have been the case regardless of my alignment.

[Enigma]

Enigma upon your return - I want to see reads list and your thoughts on what's transpired.

Probably you and BuJ
Lots of things here and there, but also the training on me (when scum need a mislynch) probably adds to it after reading the past few pages

[Enigma]

Enigma upon your return - I want to see reads list and your thoughts on what's transpired.

Probably you and BuJ
Lots of things here and there, but also the training on me (when scum need a mislynch) probably adds to it after reading the past few pages

enigma what do you think of tw's replace

I actually thought it was townie when it first happened, and I think I commented as such. But then I saw he replaced out of all his games not just this one (mini 2036 and another game where he was a hydra), and I don't know if the "I'm out af" is a ragequit or just I cbf exchanging with ruru right now.... so NAI I suppose?

[Enigma]

I didn't realise deadline so soon, so pls any other questions. Otherwise, happy to vote BuJ as I do scumread him a bit and I don't think a performer wagon will happen today

[Enigma]

^though it seems ill be around for at least a few more game days as no way im going to get NKd now...

[Enigma]

Also just thought of something - if alonzo is telling the truth, that means enigma is cleared. 1 scum died already, the only other 1 who can do an nk already did one on n2....so alonzo blocking enigma = enig town.

I think it also makes sense if alonzo was fake claiming & was actually traitor, then his rb on enigma on n2 would've made sense as scum fake claim? So in that case, enigma is scum and alonzo = traitor? Because looking at enigma's ISO alone - you can say I'm insane but I'm an old school/traditional town player - his ISO is still very suspicious .

Alonzo flew from not changing his stance on enigma being scum, to tw/ruru, to bujaber.
Something isn't right here.

This doesn't clear me btw (if Alonzo isn't fake claiming). Plus Alzono fake claiming doesn't make sense - it has essentially signed his death warrant if he doesn't get NKd and he was not under pressure to claim since he wasn't in today's lynch pool and I don't really expect him to be the player who has made such a gambit.

I actually started to TR your slot a bit earlier, but considering how you (and your predecessor) are training me so much when it is quite vital for scum to drive a mislynch today makes me retract that read.

Do you mean townreading ? Because otherwise your "training me so much" makes no sense .

And why would scum perf vote you today you've got no traction, compared to a scum perf voting an easier lynch like bujaber? If you read my meta provided for my 2 scum games this year, and alonzo can attest to it - I go for easy lynches. alonzo roleblocking you that night doesn't mean your fully cleared, yes, and like I said before, I do value classic scum hunting which focuses more on itt posts over abilities. Abilities are supplemental.

TR in the above means town reading.

I'm not necessarily a hard lynch target ... everyone is pretty divided on me as to town on scum. Plus you targeting me makes sense if you are scum friends with the main lynch target (BuJ).

Willing to put BuJ on L-1 considering the deadline soon ...
Main reason being PoE and his interactions voting me and bouncing back onto me only when there is wagon pressure (lame but meh)

If BuJ flips red
Elephant > Performer in that order, also we can get a confirmed inno if there is a NK tonight so I think it will be PoE win for town

If he flips green
Performer > elephant in that order, but also possible there is a deep scum somewhere and we are fucked

[Enigma]

If BuJ flips red
Elephant > Performer in that order

?
Is this based on my posts this page or something else?

Nah mostly because I doubt both scum would both push me

[Enigma]

Page top fuckers

[Enigma]

But I started this game day pushing you and only when it seemed like that wouldn't work (+ PR claims) I pushed for BuJ?

Yeh I suppose so, just mainly that duck/performer has been more relentless in their tunnelling of me though

[Enigma]

Hi ele, sorry also, I've also been a bit lazy to properly sort you. Let's think about it overnight.
IMO inclined to think it's not AtE because of you going on about unethical, but will spend some time sorting elephant as well tomorrow since I also expect to be here tomorrow...

@enigma why do you townread skitter & korina?
As for "tunneling," that's inaccurate, I've been sorting others as well.
Intent to vote bujaber.

UNVOTE:

Kinda has to do with early game reads for skitter and korina. Also probably because I have my initial scum pool where many of the players are still alive, and I haven't really gotten around to sorting them yet.

Anyways, intent to hammer before deadline.

[Enigma]

I'm scumreading Performer more than I am BuJaber
But ehhh it's probably a bad idea to move a wagon this late in the game day?

This just sounds odd. you're thinking I'm scummier, yet you went back to buj.

Of the people on buj's wagon that have behaved the fishiest, it's you.

Help me sort you and elephant

If BuJ flips red, then what is your read on elephant?
If BuJ flips green, then what is your read on elephant?

[Enigma]

Uhh putting a lynch pool of three people with <24 hrs to deadline and L-1 on BuJ is just illogical.

Here is the question again since you didn't really answer it:
1. Do you think scum!elephant would bus BuJ
2. Do you think scum!elephant would drive a mislynch on BuJ

[Enigma]

Uhh putting a lynch pool of three people with <24 hrs to deadline and L-1 on BuJ is just illogical.

Here is the question again since you didn't really answer it:
1. Do you think scum!elephant would bus BuJ
2. Do you think scum!elephant would drive a mislynch on BuJ

To answer both questions - absolutely .

The problem is, this is d3 so what scum does in terms of bussing or driving mislynching...the chances for both are just as possible. In fact the site meta I've seen is that scum busses. And if this turns out to be scum bussing scum, then we might as well have them help us to victory.

Why would you ask me this though , enigma... I wouldn't think you're that new to how scum play in FM.

This is not about how a generic player would bus or mislynch as both as possible, and this is obvious in my questions. This is about elephant specifically and how you read him.

Me telling you why I'm asking doesn't help the purpose but this isn't getting anywhere so meh ... your answer could provide some indication about if you know what BuJ would flip, and would provide also insight if TvT, TvS or SvS with elephant, based on the flip of BuJ.

[Enigma]

Not sure if you dodging questions and redirecting back to me, or if you just didn't understand

[Enigma]

Hi everyone!

Not sure what happened last night ... I was thinking about it earlier today and remembered ruru mentioning about rb guilties not being reliable. Anyways, let's wait for everyone to check in.

I will also be travelling for work with LA for most of late-Nov and Dec so I hope this game finishes by then ...

Initial thoughts - the last scum is fucked. BuJ flipping red makes me more suspicious of elephant as I mentioned yesterday - I feel it is unlikely both BuJ and scum!performer would push so hard on mislynching me.

I kinda feel like the mod scum took has to be between day talk and traitor? As I understand from the flips, both of the group scum have been lynched as goons and without mods. Now these were the two slots that got to decide on the mods, keeping in mind that they do/did not know who the traitor is/was pregame. Why would they give scum PR mods to the traitor rather than themselves? BP/JOAT/RC is useless for traitor as a single mod.

[Enigma]

Wait, just as I hit submit I remembered that if scum!performer was not recruited and remains a traitor, my logic about him and BuJ both pushing me becomes invalid as they could not bilaterally coordinate. So ignore that para in the previous post - let's leave performer in the scumpool.

[Enigma]

- The mafia traitor may not receive any abilities if not recruited as well.[/spoiler]

Nvm, should have properly read the rules when I was writing that post. Definitely between traitor and day talk then.

[Enigma]

Alonzo - who did you target?

Who did you target?

So this felt off when I first open the thread but I didn't really figure out the words/logic for it yet. Performer's first post game day stood out - for me, it was wtf happened last night and oh shit will this game finish soon. If a NK had happened last night, this is what I would have asked straight away, but we had discussed already yesterday that the rb!guilty is not really a guilty. Part of this actually feels like scum!performer could have holstered last night, then hoped for a rb!guilty on someone just to muck with everyone's head?

[Enigma]

we technically could have lynched a recruited traitor; they flip as mafia goon

@ mod is this the case? or would traitor flip as recruited goon?

I just want to confirm this before I look through ISOs just to know which scenario is more likely. Associations are kind of awkward when I was thinking about the game - I'm not sure if we are looking at two goons flipped who did not know who their traitor buddy was (because they choose day talk); or if we are looking for group scum who all knew each other (because they choose recruit)

[Enigma]

I mean if scum is in {you, enigma, performer} then lynching those three wins the game even if alonzo literally goes afk

skitter is 99% town

korina is 95% town

if alonzo is scum he gamethrew

if I'm scum I gamethrew

OK I read this in the morning and it was like I don't understand what you mean by game threw here? If you lynch elephant, performer and me, but the last scum is in one of alonzo/ruru is scum - this isn't game throwing but rather well done to scum for getting so far?

I'm not calling either of you scum (at the moment) and I think it is unlikely but I wouldn't discount the possibility that there is scum in either of you ... like it is possible that there is one scum in you and alonzo if scum took no mods considering:
1. Both of you claimed later in the process
2. There has been no night action that can validate either of your claims - especially with the no deaths last night

Anyways this is a sort out before LYLO if we get there, but we are a bit away from that

[Enigma]

i think ruru uses 'plays suboptimally' and 'gamethrew' almost interchangeably

lol ok

[Enigma]

^I would probably concede, self-vote, quit etc. if it happened again lol ... this game has been going on for too long

[Enigma]

I use it extremely literally in my own case: yes, in theory, I could hard bus bujaber and fake claim bg because wifom and then make the game nightless (sacrificing the most overpowered ability in the game) and then drive lynches on town like 4 times in a row or something but I only do that if I'm extremely confident in my ability to towntell which is never the case when I roll scum and if I'm not then it's actually just gamethrowing.

alonzo and I were both generally townread already so there's no point for either of us in poeing the game further; fakeclaiming only really makes sense for either of us if we planned to stop the bujaber lynch so as to make rb/tracker innos remain ambiguous (and I already knew there's an rb when I claimed bg)

alonzo had a 1/3 chance to instantly lose to a cc considering I would never let bujaber live to endgame, and he wasn't lined up to be lynched, so that's objectively townreadable as well

alonzo would also be expecting an investigative role above him in the claim order; if someone had useful n1/n2 gc/tracker results (for example, tracking alonzo doing nothing) the game could also just be mechanically solved by his claim

so like basically it's not impossible but it's just exceedingly unlikely

Yeh I've realise I don't wanna think about this scenario - if one of you guys holstered last night despite fake claiming it is pretty silly to do so (and a bit cruel to town as well). Was probs just the usage of the word game throwing that got me a bit confused.

[Enigma]

we technically could have lynched a recruited traitor; they flip as mafia goon

@ mod is this the case? or would traitor flip as recruited goon?

I just want to confirm this before I look through ISOs just to know which scenario is more likely. Associations are kind of awkward when I was thinking about the game - I'm not sure if we are looking at two goons flipped who did not know who their traitor buddy was (because they choose day talk); or if we are looking for group scum who all knew each other (because they choose recruit)

Yes, if recruited, the traitor would flip as a mafia goon.

Lol darn so all my speculation about the scum team and the mods is just that ohh well.

[Enigma]

“Why does this question matter?”
Because I’m curious? Like why do you have to spend the time taking apart and scumreading every word I say when I’ve already agreed to get lynched?

Have you considered that the reason I’m angry is that you haven’t bothered interacting with me like I’m a townie for like even a second
I don’t care if you lynch me first; I agree that might be the right strategy fypov and I’ve already WIFOM’d up my slot by saying as such
I want to know if you agree that town!me means scum!Performer
Like I’m just trying to engage you on the content I wrote? To see if you think it makes sense?

@alonzo everyone is voting either me or performer today. Skitter and they want me, I want performer (but will settle for me if it means Performer is next).

I’m real confused why anyone thinks I would have holstered my shot as scum last night but I don’t care to engage with ruru much at all anymore and I probably still win by dying so do whatever

I don’t care if you lynch me first; I agree that might be the right strategy fypov and I’ve already WIFOM’d up my slot by saying as such

then why are you still ateing and making it annoying to lynch you? like I don't believe that you're actually ignorant of what you're doing here.

The AtEing is working a bit on me though :/
Like Performer feels much more survivalistic than elephant atm, IMO.

Performer's lack of any scum hunting today + the rb last night + general actions before that + duck/sky = my preferred lynch today

[Enigma]

Not voting yet because it will be L-1 and still waiting on Korina. But I kinda feel more scum equity on performer than elephant rn.

If it happens to be a mislynch and you aren't around tomorrow ruru, I will (try to) sort elephant out and hopefully not let him get away if he is scum

[Enigma]

Ok I had the intention to read indepth and choose between performer and elephant to vote ... but then from catching up on the last few posts I realise that I cbf as the scumpool is between those two (and me as well) and none of us three will live to end game under any scenario. Like whoever isn't lynched today is being lynched the following days.

Because of that, and considering I think scum is in one of performer/elephant, so we win by lynching the scumpool in any order.

[Enigma]

I think I'll just sheep skitter

[Enigma]

Or I could sheep korina ...

Ehhh, actually better if I sheep ruru as opposed to korina/skitter as ruru is almost mechanically conf!town and her NM style posting is working a bit

VOTE: elephant
L-1 btw

[Enigma]

Also, this below is suspicious - looks like sheeping just to get whoever lynched, from enigma.

Didn't get a chance to comment on this before EoD, so let me comment:
I was undecided on both and if you read my post I was happy to see either one of you lynched since I'm was/am pretty sure scum was/is in those two slots. I was going to read ISOs to help decide, then I saw duck had some 400 posts and I decided I cbf.

Agree with ruru's post btw about your perspective. Actually would prefer that Alzono doesn't say who he targeted until you respond to those questions.

[Enigma]

Hi I am here. Tbh I think we just lynch Performer and gg game over. I suppose I'm struggling a bit to see other logical explanations based on the night actions (rb and no kill).

[Enigma]

Is there anything specific you want me to comment on performer?

[Enigma]

Sure, and suppose you flip town (which I highly doubt), I'm somehow going to pull off a victory if I am scum? Highly doubtful considering my position in the lynch pool (plus I would have NKd because I kinda just want to end this game).

If you were truely town, you would just realise your slot is a liability to town atm with the night actions thus far. Rather, you continue to deflect suspicion onto others. Pretty sure game ends with your lynch.

Anyways, are you ready for the day/game to end now?

[Enigma]

Because at this point the way the game is going, if scum win then I don't see how anything else could be done. Like, if ruru or alonzo have fake claimed, well, then damn they did great work as last scum. But nobody else other than you enigma, is scum. Everyone's posts today have helped. If you're so sure it's me , then why haven't you even voted me.

Like I've said, my lynch has been virtually inevitable as soon as alonzo outed the 2nd result. But of course, scum would say I'm deflecting suspicion because the thing is, scum has been framing. The game doesn't end with my lynch.

I haven't voted you because you have been insisting to hold your lynch. Plus I didn't check the thread the past few days, and only looked at it today.

Intention to hammer.

[Enigma]

Hi I thought we lynched NM already and he flipped red. Do you miss him?

@ Korina, nah not really re emotions ... I'm pretty convinced Performer is scum just grasping for straws. If he does flip green, then I kinda don't really know at all and should probably give up :/

[Enigma]

Who else would be scum then?

Has this been answered?

I kinda mentioned it in my previous post - assuming you flip green I actually don't know as it just doesn't make logical sense anyone else could be scum. Like well played ruru/Alonzo if they fake claimed, and skitter/korina should have just killed the previous nights and saved us this torture

I'm trying to imagine this fypov that you are town, and now look at this fmpov that I'm town. If you do flip green, one of three things happens wrt me
1) There is a night kill ... and I'm roleblocked (which is pretty likely) so I get confirmed inno and can chill like creature did all game
2) There is a night kill ... I'm not roleblocked ... well this sucks but then it is 3v1 including another confirmed inno so we no lynch and Alzono targets someone else (me or the other question mark slot) and GG we win in lylo with PoE
3) There is no night kill (fuck you scum), it becomes 4v1, I will probably get mislynched and then whoever is left can gamesolve in lylo (this would have been a patient, elaborate and successful plot from the last scum so they can take the win in that case)
^The above is on the assumption Alonzo/ruru are not fake claiming, which if they are fake claiming I concede

[Enigma]

Hi everyone

I need to parse everything a bit as im a bit lost and haven't really made sense of what has happened

[Enigma]

So i was holding back a bit to see some discussion as I was trying to understand the game a bit by wincons and objectives. Also I was lazy.

1. Alonzo is scum:
His wincon today is to see anyone lynched.

2. Ruru is scum: It means Alonzo is rb.
If she got someone else lynched she would need to deal with either trying to dodge Alzono's rb (50% chance) or NK and try to mislynch again the next day (ouch)
Her best chance of a win is to get Alonzo lynched today. If she wants a no lynch then she couldn't kill alonzo (so she would have to kill in me/skitter tonight) which would make tomorrow a sad event for someone who wants to get out of the game.

3. Skitter is scum (same condition for me): Alonzo and ruru both TPRs
She would need to get Alonzo lynched, as even if she mislynched today she would need to deal with 50% chance for dodging a rb to win the game which is a terrible position to be put in.

--

Based on activity so far today, I'm leaning towards ruru being town as she doesn't seem to be playing to a scum!ruru wincon. Will have to think a bit more about skitter/alonzo