Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown - {GAME OVER}

[Patrick]

/confirm

[Patrick]

Vote: Ether

for lurking.

[Patrick]

Meh. I still don't feel comfortable,

Try to relax. This is a place of leisure.

considering you said that before the vanilla PM was common knowledge.

I'm not sure whether this makes a difference. If he's scum and wanted to know what the vanilla flavour is, he could have asked OGML in private as you did. I have to say my intepretation was more than it was just banter rather than any kind of sneaky fishing, although I don't find the questioning unreasonable.

Glork, if you knew what Ether was getting at, why did you make post 32, in which you seem to suggest that Ether is just playing word games (the difference between "random" and "arbitrary").

[Patrick]

Well it was pretty light, but so are most reasons at the start of a game. I don't see how it was "really really stupid". Why do you think her behaviour would be more likely to come from scum than town?

[Patrick]

Just so everyone knows... my vote wasn't random either :p My feeling about hasdgfas is that whilst I still don't agree with the FoS, his explanation seems fine. I don't see any inconsistency worth pursuing; I thought there were clearly different vibes between Ether's vote and Incognito's vote.

Glork, did you find hasdgfgs's explanation satisfactory?

[Patrick]

Like I said, I don't see any inconsistency between his treatment of Ether and Incognito, and I wanted to know what you thought about it. Had you said yes, I'd have probably questioned why you responded in the way you did, which seemed a bit like fuel to the fire.

[Patrick]

I got a relatively protown vibe from 68 actually. It seemed more opinions than theory to me.

[Patrick]

Okay I'm here, I just reread the topic and I think I have an okay understanding of what's gone on so far... Theres the random or not random vote thing with Glork and Ether, and something about Hascow suspecting Ether and a page or so on that issue. Is there something I missed in between?

This is kind of a bizarre question when the thread is only 4 pages and you've just read it all. Importantly, do you have any opinions on the stuff that's happened so far?

[Patrick]

Hmm. I don't feel like I've really got my teeth into this game yet, so I'm going to get down some thoughts on what's happened so far.

I get protown vibes from Erg0 and Ether. Post 61 that was called out by Ether doesn't bother me; even if he has an opinion on the matter or thought the questioning was pointless, at that point I'd expect him to wait for hasdgfas's response anyway. Post 68 seems kind of townish, and in line with most of my opinions. Ether I would guess is town based on general gut/meta.

I'm having less success finding a place to put a serious vote. Tarhalindur's post 75 strikes me as about a mile off, but having played with him before I'm not sure I could call that scummy (which sounds crazy yes). Still, Tarhalindur, I thought my post immediately following Erg0's said almost the exact same thing contentwise, how come that didn't even get a mention? I even remember you attacking me in Farscape Mafia for repeating what someone else said almost exactly in one post.

Mizzy's first and second qualifiers don't strike me as out of place, she's a cautious player. The third one does, a bit, but I still can't see it as significant, at least she posted

something

. Her PYP2 thing also seems consistent too.

I took the above to mean that I had done something within thread that lead you to believe that I was likely pro-town. However in your recent "Early Protown Indicator" list, I remained unlisted (unlike your gut-feeling on Mizzy) which would indicate that your post 60 didn't mean what I thought it did. And since it didn't mean that, it really does look like you were "goading hasdgfas and me from the sidelines" like Erg0 mentioned in Post 68.

What exactly did "Point: Incognito" mean?

On second inspection, this bothers me. Firstly because I don't see how, "Point: Incognito" could mean "I think Incognito looks protown". But I have to ask, even if that was what you thought it meant, wouldn't it still have been goading you and hasdgfas on from the sidelines? I don't really follow this thought process.

I'm reserving judgement on Glork until I see some more posts, and maybe make up my mind about Incognito. The only part that's struck me as off is the goading, but I looked at the start of open 54 again and saw a similar type of comment that he made. I find it unlikely that Glork and Ether are scum together, which is nice.

I'd like to see the promised content from Pokerface. MafiaSSK also needs to say something.

Unvote

, and hopefully find a good home for it soon.

[Patrick]

One reason might be the fact that he hasn't mentioned scot even once, and just asked for content from SSK and PokerFace.

Shrug, I just went with prodding the two people who's opinions I felt like I knew the least about. You're right that scot needs to do more as well.

The goading from the sidelines feeling came more from the post after hasdgfas's response than the one before, in my opinion.

[Patrick]

You mean the "badgering into voting" post?

I was merely debunking his point there. Need I count the number of times I have told X to vote Y for no reason?

The reason I intepretted it that way was because your post seemed to encourage suspicion of him without taking a position yourself; I could have seen you going either way after saying that, which was why I asked for your opinion on what he'd written. I've since more or less lost interest in that, because I looked at open 54 again and saw you do something similar in addressing Andycyca (complete with rolleyes), and your play here in general seems similar to there.

[Patrick]

Quality over quantity, baby.


Also, he used the word "rudimentary."

You claimed not to like Mizzy's qualifiers, but you've labelled roland protown after he made a post that he twice qualified with "this is only rudimentary". What's the difference? I think what little he's posted sounds kind of genuine, and it's like he feels a little overawed at what might be his first mini game, but that's hardly something that could only affect town.

Mod

: Did MafiaSSK pick up his second prod? I've definitely seen him online.

Incognito, what's your current vote based on?

[Patrick]

Glork's reasoning makes sense.

Mod, I unvoted Ether on the last page.

Fixed. -OGML

[Patrick]

On rereading, I have a bit of a bad vibe from Pokerface. I think he may be trying to blend in and appear to be contributing without doing anything. I got this impression in particular from his last two posts. In the second to last one, the first part isn't much because he undermined it immediately, the second part is an opinion of sorts but doesn't tread on anyone's toes, and the last part seems like filler, especially since he didn't even add a comment about what it means for Glork's alignment. His last post is purely defensive, and doesn't even make that much sense: if he didn't trust the vibe/gut instinct enough to being it up early when it might have sparked something, why bring it up later and then tag on an, "but it doesn't mean anything"?

Vote: PokerFace

With that said, there are a few others underplaying still. MafiaSSK is same as before. Tarhalindur hasn't posted in 5 days, despite having stuff to respond to (

Mod

: Please prod Tarhalindur). I don't think there's anyone else in prod range as such, but some people feel a bit under the radar. Not great in an auto-deadlined game.

[Patrick]

What do you find FoS worthy?

[Patrick]

Mizzy, what do WTB and PST mean? Also, why aren't you looking for scum?

[Patrick]

p sure you're reading way too much into nothing at all.

This kind of nitpicking seems unlike you. I thought I recalled you putting in a word about this in Tree Stump Mafia, and here it is:

--Random note regarding "TBH" and "honestly": I've noticed in my own play that I tend to say it when expressing a thought or feeling that might seem counterintuitive (or one that clashes with the general consensus). I remember in Stark's Higher Maths that mith pointed out me using "honestly" and noting it as a tell... we were both town in that game. So I guess what I'm saying is that I can respect mith's opinion and understand it to be standard for him, but that I don't agree with it in the least.--

This isn't really a contradiction, but the difference you're pointing to here seems pretty negligable. If you're "intuition" is that I'm FoS worthy, he's declaring something that might seem counterintuitive; that he thinks I'm not. I don't think the fact that only you're harping it makes a difference, I just see it as expressing his disagreement.

Tarhalindur, which post from Pokerface are you getting a town vibe from? You said it's one where he makes requests for comments, but I seem to be missing the part where he did that.

Pokerface, have you got any response to all of this? It seems like you've posting around the site and avoiding this game these past few days.

[Patrick]

Specious is a new favourite word of mine.

[Patrick]

4. Patrick
He has stated some oppinions on other players throughout this game. One thing i have noticed so far is that he appears to have different scumhunting tactics. My last post was meant as an answer to Ether's question, but he saw it and the post before it as being fairly over defensive and possessing undermining comments. this is why I say he has different scumhunting tactics because i don't like the idea of voting people because they are over defensive. It isn't a valid scum tell in my book. Since he is participating often and actually taking time to look at the posts of others (scumhunt) I am getting a town read on him. He has made it a point to sometimes mention the names of players when they need to post more. What is your oppinion of MafiaSSK up to this point?

I think you're somewhat missing the point of why I voted you. I don't mind people defending themselves, and I think "being defensive" is usually a sketchy tell at best. I voted you for seemingly only feigning contribution. When I said "purely defensive", I didn't mean that you were being overdefensive, I meant that you didn't seem to move the game forward in anyway or give an opinion as to anyone's alignment. (I also found it odd that you seemingly had no reaction to Ether's unexplained vote, particularly when it was the second one of it's kind placed on you, but am not quite sure what it means yet). I haven't in depth metagamed you, but what I have seen didn't make me think of you as a lurker/active lurker.

Regarding other undercontributors, yes, I have tried to poke them into posting more from time to time, because in games with this kind of strict deadline, it's even more important than usual. In every game I've played with this kind of deadline, there's been at least one lurking/coasting scum. MafiaSSK has been a bit of a mystery to me so far, and I have to admit I was hoping he'd be replaced, since he didn't post for 72 hours after being prodded. I don't regard his early, "go easy on me guys" type comment as a scumtell, because people who I've seen say that kind of thing has always been town (but there's only 2). That he needs to post more is obvious, and I too would like some elaboration on his townlist, since it's possible he just saw Glork's comment on roland and tried to look protown by labelling a third of the game as protown. Reasonably happy with his comment on Incognito, who does seem more passive than I'm used to seeing from him. Not particularly scummy to me.

[Patrick]

hasdgfas, who do you suspect?

[Patrick]

ELMO

[Patrick]

(Something's wrong if I can't hold my own without relying on that half of the meta, and it's embarrassing. Patrick, tell him it's embarrassing.)

It's true. She finds it embarassing.

His post is an evil wall of text, but I blame myself more for not having the patience to sift through it than him for not posting a summary. Though he should. And vote someone. When he's done reading all these games he's requested, I guess. Loony. How long is this gonna take?

I'm sure you've read through posts longer than that one.

Patrick/Glork, what do you think of that post?

It struck me as rather noncommital, although to be fair, that kind of analysis often does early in the game. I look forward to his next post.

This game is bugging me though since I feel like there's a whole half of people that I have absolutely no preliminary reads on.

This makes me feel marginally better.

[Patrick]

She's referring to your towntell on roland, where he labels 3 players as protown.

[Patrick]

What do you think of hasdgfas?

I'm not impressed with his suspicions: the roland one especially just looks like he's going through the motions, asking roland to post more, when OGML told us 4 days previously that roland was being replaced. The Glork one is meh, I think he's holding onto the goading thing a bit too long. The PF one seems more theoretical than anything really based on suspicion. Not particularly happy with him, but still prefer my vote on PokerFace at the moment.

For some reason, Tarhalindur reading Pokerface as town bugs me. I might come back to it later.

[Patrick]

Quick check in post, internet access at home is down at the moment, so I'm on limited access, and currently in a rush. From what I've seen since I last looked, the hascow wagon looks fine, and unless I'm missing something, his comment to Incognito didn't really explain the double standard shown between mafiaSSK and Glork.

I think Mizzy and Elmo really need to post. Hopefully I'll be back soon.

[Patrick]

He mentioned a couple of times to people that he wanted links to their games as scum, and what I gather from that is that he's going to see if they're acting similarly in this game as well. That's what I find iffy, because most people don't play scum the same way every game.

This gives me the impression you think metagaming of this kind is bad strategy-wise, and that's what I've been picking up from some of your other comments too, without really explaining why it's scummy. What makes it scummy instead of poor play in your opinion?

Mizzy, on the other hand, has done things like just comment on the fact that someone seems to be playing normally. That's not meta-scumhunting, like what PF is doing. Commenting on whether someone is acting normally or not is a different kind of meta-ing than seeing if they're acting like they did as scum in a previous game, at least IMO.

Mizzy said that Ether is playing as she'd expect Ether to behave as town, did that bother you? You've said most people won't play the same as scum in every game, doesn't that apply equally well to town?

I dunno, it just seems like an awfully fine distinction you're making here between the type of metagaming being used by PF as opposed to Mizzy Even if Mizzy is only saying, "X is behaving normally", she's using metagaming as her reasoning.

[Patrick]

The way in which you've presented this suspicion of me makes it kind of hard to answer to. You've said you don't like how I seem to insert my opinion/two cents everywhere, and how I'm asking questions everywhere, but that's how I play the game. I don't see any other way of scumhunting. I can explain why I asked any particularly question if necessary.

Patrick's #125 feels very pot-kettle to me,

I had to laugh at this though. You've done alot less scumhunting than I have this game, and you're not the only one.

And here's a (gasp) question. What's protown about Poker's 158? He didn't take many firm stands in that post at all, and left the door open to doing practically anything with alot of, "But I have to meta them" type comments.

Oh look, yet more answer-prompting from Patrick.

Assuming you mean my post 163, this looks like a stupidly cheap shot with the sole purpose to continue to build this image you've made of me. What you dislike, when we take away the negative language, is that I asked cow who he suspects? If you look at his posts before that, it's very unclear who he was suspicious of. Are you going to say that every time I ask a question? What do you feel wasn't scumhunting about that?

[Patrick]

Maybe that is so, but the questions you ask look like you're just trying to look like you're scumhunting. A few questions have been the only thing in a post by you, and more than once, the question has been aimed at a conversation you have not been participating in up until then, which makes me wonder if you are trying to cause dissension among the ranks, as it were.

I don't understand why it's a problem to have a post (or several) that contains only a question. It's certainly not unusual. I'm hardly going to add something else to a post that contains a question if it's not needed. Also, I don't understand why you consider it a problem to ask a question about a conversation I haven't participated in up until then. Sometimes I need to ask a question before having a firm opinion on some issue.

One huge example is when you asked Glork if his question had been answered to his liking. Not only do I feel like it wasn't your place to ask, but I don't see why you would have any reason to ask that question. And, by asking that question, you altered the natural conversation, which limited the information the town got. What I mean is, you didn't allow Glork to point out for himself that his question wasn't answered properly, and you didn't add anything to the conversation yourself.

If you've read my posts, I've already explained why I asked that question. Glork had already posted after hasdgfas's response, so I hardly think I was treading on his toes or limiting information.

Just because I am guilty of the lack of scumhunting does not mean that you are not also guilty. I have a newborn baby taking up 99% of my time; what's your excuse?

I'm not making an excuse, as I don't think I need one. I just felt like you accusing me of not scumhunting seemed very left field considering the number of people who you could have reasonably accused of the same.

Firstly, this is different than the questions of yours I have a problem with considering that you are actually in a conversation with me and it's not the only damned thing in your post.

I know I've covered these accusations before, but again, I can't see why that would make a difference. I don't have to be in a conversation with someone before I can ask them questions.

Yes, I mean that post. It's yet ANOTHER completely empty post from you that contains just one question, one that is generating content by asking another player for said content. It smacks of attempting to look contributive without actually being contributive and it's something that scum often do in order to help them build their own cases later on. Scum already know who town are and so often times have trouble formulating cases without the help from townies. Since I know that you suck ass (you told me so) as scum, this seems like that very tactic from you.

I can hardly believe I'm seeing this. Yes, I was looking for him to produce content about his suspicions, because I felt I didn't have any real idea who he suspected, that seems kind of a routine thing to do when you feel that way about someone. Your argument here would apply if I'd only been asking questions and not providing any opinions of my own, which might even be close to one of Tar's tells, but you've said yourself that you don't like how I've been giving my two cents apparently without scumhunting.

Patrick, to better answer your question on how I don't feel that your question to Cow was scumhunting, I feel a scumhunter would have said something like, "Hasfaddasdaas, your last post didn't explain who your suspects are very well, so can you please elaborate?" Instead, you simply asked him who his suspects are, which is something I find suspicious because the motive behind asking is not made clear or even hinted at. It lends more to me thinking that you want to know so that you can build your own cases rather than an actual interest in Cow making his thoughts more precisely known.

I don't see anything different about those two questions aside from a little semantics. When I say, "Has, who do you suspect?", I'd say that makes it pretty obvious that I'm not clear on who he suspects and I want to know. The addition you've said I should have added seems completely trivial to me. Also, I don't see why it would be a problem if someone's motive for asking a question was unclear initially anyway. I could even see it helping.

[Patrick]

I've already said why. Because a) it's letting others generate content for you, and b) it makes it look like all you do is question others before coming out with an opinion, making it look like you are scum who finds it difficult to know what to say before someone else says it for you.

Well, like it or not, this is something I do all the time.

Oh, I do know why you said you asked, but the reason came later, after you asked the question and it was brought up. I just feel that you are leading the witnesses, so to speak.

I'm not sure where to go with this. I've explained why I asked, you for some reason find that hard to believe.

I wouldn't have seen the question to him as scummy if you had, as I said, mentioned WHY you were asking. Instead, it looks like you were using his answers to make it look like you're contributing. As for opinions of your own, most of them are after someone else has already expressed the same opinion, or saying you feel exactly the opposite of someone else's already expressed opinion. I see very little new ground from you, and I would expect new ground from a Patricktown.

When I ask someone who they suspect, it's because I'm not clear on who they suspect and would like to know. I don't see how that can be anything but obvious. Since you bring up what you'd expect from me, have you actually read any of my games before stating that you think I'm playing out of character?

Half of the game is all about semantics. While it seems trivial to you, it gives the town more information about your thoughts and motives, which is pretty important in my opinion.

As above, I don't think the suggested change would actually have offered any extra information. I don't really think you're scum, but you're really reaching with this.

[Patrick]

Unvote

[Patrick]

@Patrick: What was the reason for the unvote?

I've lost heart in the vote. He has at least done something now, and whilst it doesn't set my world on fire, neither does anyone's play, really. Too many people are doing too little. In addition to the list made by Incognito, I'd ask:

Glork, why are you being so patently useless? Hasdgfas, why are you lurking in the face of these accusations?

I should try and get a reread in.

[Patrick]

I was there too, early on. Now I read him as slightly scummy, as it definitely isn't normal for him to be this useless, and it's the kind of play he often goes after himself. It also bothers me how he hasn't even tried to follow up his attack on me, especially after what happened last time, and especially since a number of people said they had no problems with my play. I'd expect more concern. It's not a stretch that he could be lazy town, but I don't like it.

[Patrick]

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

I don't really agree with this; I think people will often play differently as town from game to game. Of course, there are still things you can look for, but I think looking at scum meta is equally valid.

You didn't answer my other question. What makes it scummy instead of just poor play? Even if you don't think looking at past scum games is helpful, you're presumably aware that it's done fairly often.

[Patrick]

Elmo, it's well over a week since you replaced in. I'm not inclined to accept illness as a valid excuse, since you've just replaced into another game. Post something, and make it worthwhile.

[Patrick]

PokerFace, what do you think of Elmo? You've been going after MafiaSSK for low content, and FoSed him/preparing to vote, but you didn't mention Elmo once in that last post, and his predecessor hardly did anything either. I can't help but feel that you're giving him a preference here. I could argue you've been too lenient on Tarhalindur and Glork too, but Elmo seems to be the most striking double standard there.

[Patrick]

Patrick/Ether: What does Tar feel like relative to Farscape? I don't think I've seen them in a game before.

What I remember of him from Farscape was that he lurked alot, virtually everything he said I disagreed with, and that he eventually went on a suicide mission, FoSing people who tried to tell him it was a bad idea. He was eventually lynched on day 2 as a townie. That game is sort of what makes me waver on going after him here for what is in a vacuum pretty scummy play.

Hm, I disagree with Patrick about Glork's nitpicking, that seems precisely the kinda thing he picks up on (thinking back to Open 54 here) most frequently.

I've never seen him as big on semantics which is what I see this as. Which attack of his in open 54 do you find comparable to this? Do you think the tell is valid here?

[Patrick]

Hasdgfas, you still haven't responded to my question about why you think PokerFace's metegaming play is scummy instead of just bad play.

My eyes hurt alot at the moment, but I will reread this game tomorrow to try and sort out a few things. My feeling right now is that Elmo is more likely to be scum than Glork, although Glork's play has pissed me off far more of the two. Elmo's post reminded me uncomfortably of the kind of stuff he was posting up in mafia 70 as scum, but it's fairly intangible at the moment. I'd like him to try and get more involved in stuff as it happens so I can get a better read on him.

I think the issue of hasdgfas's vanilla claim is more WIFOMy than the way Incognito has presented it; and I've certainly seen scum claim vanilla on day 1. Nevertheless I feel better about Incognito's alignment, and also PokerFace's.

Someone poke me if I don't get to this tomorrow.

[Patrick]

I ask you again, when you made the statement that I'm not playing as you'd expect me to play as town, had you/have you actually read any of my games? Just a skim of my isolated posts in recent games of mine would tell you that my asking someone a question in a post with nothing else is something I do all the time. And yet I'm guessing you haven't done that.

[Patrick]

Well, I have at least got a bit of a better view of the game overall after rereading it.

People who strike me as somewhat town: PokerFace, Ether, Erg0, Incognito

PokerFace is a player I was initially suspicious of for what I saw as active lurking, but he seems to have stepped up quite alot, and has convinced me that the metagaming is genuine rather than just something done to avoid taking stances on people for a while. His ignoring of Elmo completely in favour of SSK bothered me a little, but I agree with his recent comments about Elmo. Probably the weakest of my protown reads, but I have a good vibe from his recent posts; he seems to have stepped up closer to deadline in the way I'd expect a protown player to.

I had a weak kind of towntell on Incognito early on, in that he seemed excited and enthusiastic about the game, which I think would be less likely if he's scum, because he hates being scum and we're in a group where several of us know his play pretty well. Then there was a period where he went kind of blah, and didn't seem to do much. But following that, I think his questioning of hasdgfas looks like a genuine attempt to discern his alignment and that his post 264 seems unlikely to me to be made by scum, regardless of hasdgfas's alignment.

My opinions of Ether and Erg0 haven't really changed from earlier on, they just seem to be playing consistently with how they are as town. I'm more confident about Ether than Erg0. I can't say that I really like the notion that Glork is allowed to suck unwiped arse on day 1, but I've seen that kind of thinking thrown around before.


People I'm neutral on: MafiaSSK, Mizzy, scotmany12

MafiaSSK's latest posts have been weird and definitely need explaining better. He's probably the worst of my neutrals right now, but his play doesn't strike me as significantly different to what I expected, and I wouldn't support lynching him today.

Mizzy's attack on me is pretty dire, but something about it makes me not want to lynch her at this point. I suppose as scum I'd have just expected her to jump on one of the easier currents at the time, rather than a more experienced player with no votes. This could be explained by a connection to hasdgfas, and her comments on him would kind of fit, but I don't want to lynch her today either.

scot hasn't really stuck out to me in any way so far. Nothing he's done has really struck me as unreasonable, and I don't really see the problem with his hasdgfas vote that some people seem to be seeing, but there's nothing I can really label as protown either.


People I'm more suspicious of: hasdgfas, Elmo, Tarhalindur, Glork

I've explained my opinion of Glork already. Tarhalindur is here because of little content and because he doesn't really push the game forward much. I wouldn't mind lynching him today, although I do think Ether's comparison of postcount between Farscape Mafia and here is pretty misleading. I'm mostly stuck between Elmo and hasdgfas as my top two choices.

hasdgfas still hasn't answered the question that I asked him three times. hasdgfas, please do so. Whilst I can see the points about how he's voting SSK instead of Glork, I think those are less relevant than the issue of him apparently showing a double standard with metagaming. He just seemed to use this:

PF seems to be basing his thoughts completely off of meta-ing, which, while it can be sometimes useful, isn't necessarily the best way of searching for scum, since players should be attempting to not allow their metas to bring out their tells.

As a way to vaguely insert support against the player under the most pressure at the time. And he's ignored my question 3 times now as to why it's even scummy in the first place (and leaving his initially arbitrary vote on PokerFace, who wasn't his top suspect, when PokerFace had a wagon on him). I can't shake the feeling that his distinction between Poker's metagaming and Mizzy's metagaming was something he made up when called on it. Hasdgfas, is there any completed game (or MD thread) where you've voiced this kind of opinion before?

Erg0: Can you better explain why you think hasdgfas's claim makes him more likely to be town? I sometimes see premature claims as a protown tell, but this one didn't really strike me as premature.

My issue with Elmo is, I'll admit, more sketchy and gut based. One thing I would say is, if he's alive tomorrow and I'm not, don't let him get by with lurking for a week, making a big post like 246, lurking for a week etc. This is how alot of scum try to make it easier for themselves, and a trick I've seen him pull as scum. His posts so far just seem less purposeful and assertive than how I've seen him as town. His reasons for suspecting hasdgfas seem very minor, especially when there are actually some good reasons to suspect hasdgfas. Also, I think half of the questions he asked in that post had already been answered.

Elmo, what do you think of hasdgfas's vote for MafiaSSK? What do you think of his comment on PokerFace being scummy for metagaming, whilst Mizzy was also metagaming? I have to agree with PokerFace that the reasons you gave for suspecting hasdgfas seem pretty small. Like, for his post 131, you accuse him of posting to look like he's doing stuff around the "TBH" debate, but all you really did was summarise it and state that you disagree with me that Glork is unusually nitpicky. You didn't say what that might mean about me, or about Glork, or even about Incognito until prompted (validity of the tell). When I've seen you as town, you generally have seemed to comment more about people's alignments, even making lots of definitive statements at times, here your post reminds me of the more hedging kind of post style you had in mafia 70, since after reading it, the only thing I could really discern about your thoughts on alignments was that you'd probably end up voting hasdgfas. This bothers me, but I'd hate to string you up wrongly based on just a couple of posts and what could be just my imagination.

I wouldn't mind lynching any of the four in my lower group, but I'll probably vote Elmo or hasdgfas after a few responses.

[Patrick]

Patrick is still somewhat scummy.

I'd give you 0% on this one. Good effort, though.

[Patrick]

Who's scum?

[Patrick]

Yes. So far you've said four people are protown and you're curious about everyone else. Coming up to deadline, it needs narrowing down.

[Patrick]

Vote: Elmo

[Patrick]

I won't be back before deadline. I know that Elmo is safely at 4 votes; I'm keeping my vote on hasdgfas to ensure that a post-claim rush will still be likely to end in a lynch. But I think his stalling is scummy, yeah, and I don't oppose this wagon at all.

This is what I don't get about Elmo's play. Earlier, when he was just at 1 vote, I can see stalling as scummy. But now, when he's been at 3-4 votes, I know he's been online to see it, yet he still hasn't posted, to defend himself or claim. I just don't get it. It doesn't make much sense to me for a townie or a scum to do.

This game bores me. Thirteen-page Day Ones are seriously getting annoying.

I think you were better sticking to the, "It's entirely my fault" thing. Thirteen page day one is hardly long, nor is the thread a long or difficult read.

Incidentally, Incog, you're probably the most obvious townsperson in this game aside from Ether.

You got something right.

If you want opportunism, it's your vote on cow and week ago. No reasons, completely made to wagon, a week before deadline, where there was enough time for you to make a case against me, or reread and think better of it, or do pretty much anything. And now you just appear to set up a few lynches for later if Elmo turns out to be town? Is it possible you've let yourself slip this much, or are you just scum this time? Because your play is disgusting, and if it wasn't so impratical, I'd follow Mizzy's vote there. And forget any advertising of starkadium in my sig. I hate your guts right now. That pretty much doesn't change even if you're scum. To sign up specially for a semi invitational game, and to pull this crap is terrible, especially when you've been posting extensively elsewhere. Please just jump into the nearest stretch of water.

I think there's just over 5 hours until the deadline. If Elmo comes on, I recommend he claims.

[Patrick]

What is there to say? A bunch of people jumped Elmo in the last couple of days. It looks like a feeding frenzy.

This doesn't actually say anything. Scum can easily be rushed close to deadline. Heck, in the last mini game I played, a scum was rushed in the last 24 hours, and only avoided getting lynched by lurking then claiming cop 5 minutes before deadline. You're essentially bitching about something whilst not doing anything about it; and not for the first time.

[Patrick]

Elmo's long gap before he actually posted I can easily see from Elmotown. He needed pressure before he stepped up, but that's not much of an issue.

He made some big long posts. First he threw out some gut reactinos to posts and asked pointed questions of seven other players. Lots of "whys" and "what are your reasons for" type of questions -- good scumhunting questions.

Three of the questions he asked in the first post were questions that had already been asked (and responded too in some way). I don't particularly see what's so great.

You yourself, Patrick, admit that your interest in Elmo is "sketchy and gut-based," but apparently it's good enough -- better than Cow, Tar, or myself. You temper it by saying you'd "hate to string [Elmo] up wrongly based on just a couple of posts and what could be just my imagination." I'm curious to know what changes between that and your actual vote.

None of that changed between saying it and voting. Believe it or not, I've been back and forth on which to vote alot lately. hasdgfas is the safer option; a claimed vanilla, with a few tangible things I don't like about his posts. Elmo's post reads exactly like pretty much all the long post he produced in my game where he was scum, and not like the ones he's made where I've seen him as town (newbie 499, Big Love, Open 54). There's a few other games I've looked at but can't discuss. His reasons to vote hasdgfas looked flimsy, and I don't have a clue who else he suspects from his posts. I don't even get why he held off voting hasdgfas so long, it's not like he's floated any other candidate.

I suspect nobody particularly agrees with the reason I'm voting for Elmo, but don't lump me in with people saying that his not posting quickly is scummy, or some such thing.

I've lost confidence in hasdgfas being scum a little. I think as scum he'd be more likely to have voted Elmo at some point, and I agree with his comment about you.

SSK has been more useless for far longer, and aside from a "Who's scum?" question from Patrick, he hasn't even gotten a mention out of anybody. I'm getting a free bye because I'm Glork and apparently I tend to do this D1 from time to time. Elmo's being run up due to a slow start failure to live up to expectations. It's bullshit.

I agree that the free pass type thing you've been given is bullshit. I don't particularly see MafiaSSK as comparable to Elmo, although I don't like how he's avoided the thread even after being asked to name suspects (he's been online, I'm fairly sure).

The fact that I can't articulate what I find scummy about Elmo as well as I'd like does not mean I have no reason to be voting him. I'm fairly sure you've pushed all kind of things in the past without being able to explain them well, so I don't see what you find so strange.

And now I have to go to eat. Won't be back before deadline.

[Patrick]

<3

[Patrick]

No kidding. Elmo was scum.

[Patrick]

Yes!!

It was frustrating watching this game from the outside and seeing nobody really paying any attention to Elmo. When day 6 came, I was still expecting one of the townies to vote the other fairly quickly. Very good to see people willing to reconsider an assumption that they'd been making for a while, even if it did require PokerFace's gambit to show the way (which I do think was a decent gambit btw).

I still maintain (and yes, I've debated this with Elmo already) that the reasons for lynching him on day 1 were not poor; the only shoddy vote was Erg0's, which didn't turn me off the wagon because if Erg0 was scum I could have seen it as a bus just as easily as an opportunist jump on a townie. I don't feel Elmo would have posted in the same way as town. Activity would likely have been the same, but it was something in the posts that bothered me, not the lack of them.

I have only one question here: why wasn't Elmo lynched the second I turned up scum? Seriously, people need to meta me more.

I think the answer to this question is fairly obvious. Elmo dropped down my suspicion list too when I found out Tar was scum (though interestingly, I'd have had more trouble seeing Elmo and Glork paired together). Tar's overcertainty of Elmo's guilt was what I saw as the biggest indicator of busing there, but I can easily see why Elmo would have slipped to the back of people's minds after that.

The setup looks balanced enough to me, and I thought the flavour was very good. Thanks to OGML for modding, and to the players who made this a close one. I got rather stressed about the game near the end of day 1, in part because I was entering an important exam period, but good game on the whole.

[Patrick]

I received this PM when day 2 started, if anyone cares:

Walking towards your car from the club, you notice the street light you had parked under has gone out. This alley is a lot more sinister without it. You nervously reach for your keys when you hear a sound behind you. Spinning around, your shout is muffled by a damp cloth over your mouth. The face of your assailant is all too familiar as the chloroform sends you into a dreamless sleep you never wake up from.


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You have been murdered. This means no more posting until the game is over. Big thanks for playing in my first game, and please come back for the post game discussion!