James Brafin's mini normal review, August 2018

[the worst]

lemme catch up

[the worst]

7 day/48 hr is good imo.

Ninja RB is not multitasking. I'll hunt for the PMs.....

[the worst]

Found em. So basically this is James' concept so if he wants to hop in and tell me to stop quackin' rule to his preferences..... the original draft was~

Town
Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Tracker
Prime-Night vigilante
X Vanilla

Scum
Ninja
Backup Ninja/Roleblocker
Roleblocker

@irchy I suggested the same thing you suggested-- full Ninja + full RB is scumsided. the non multitasking ninja rb forces scum to kinda shoot in the dark as to whether they want to avoid presumed investigation or reduce town powah.

because of the prevalence of ninjas in the original setup I suggested town tracker was technically negative utility in context as a mid strength town investigative which I think is right. it's kinda more balanced considering the ninja may or may not ninja. besides, trackers don't reeaaalllyyyyy get clears in normals unless you're absolutely sure there isn't a ninja.... so I'm kinda comfortable with the singletasking ninja/rb vs. tracker mechanic.

(also I Recommended the split of vengeful and tracker into two TPRs. if you want some commentary around this I'm happy to throw it in)

the prime number vig was basically there to avoid n1 shots which is why I suggested the novice vig. an even night would do the same thing but weaken town a little (and decrease swing slightlyyyyy), tho I feel like James didn't want even night off the top of my head

I like weak babysitter in a general sense because I'm not a fan of non WIFOMy / investigative roles I think it's kinda ok having a meh investigative balance wise but I think it's changeable--fmpov it's just a neat role, and doesn't contribute much to the 'theme'.


so my suggestion was

=== TOWN ===

Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Townie
Town Tracker
Novice Vigilante
5-6 Vanilla?

=== SCUM ===

Ninja Roleblocker
Mafia Encryptor
Mafia Goon


James came up with the idea of a loud mafia doctor. I think it adds a bit of flair to how to scumteam works but is kinda strange unless the vig can shoot quite a lot.

but it also creates an interesting avenue for gambit play. it's definitely a fairly strong role.

and yes, agreed for sure that loud goes thru on kill attempts.

[the worst]

True, I forgot about the multitasking rule since I don't really like it at all.

RB is still way too strong though, and now it's also swingy since it loses most of its strength if it's the only maf alive-- unless tracker is still alive in which case it is either still weak or a godfather.

sure that's fair. I like the ninja rb a lot better than ninja + RB but ungated mafia roleblockers are god tier.

any suggestions on how we could knock this down a peg? I think there's enough shenanigans that a mafia manipulative role isn't too out of place, but maybe something less powerful?

[the worst]

o ye a couple of questions wrt normalcy

James suggested full day talk over an encrypted (basically a 'they have it or they don't' approach, so no daytalk would be fine too).. any thoughts on this?

also: we're thinking of modding this from a hydra account for comodding and mutual accountability. would this be ok or should we just comod from our own accounts? (lmk if I should throw this to implo)

[the worst]

beetlejuiced :0
thanks dude.

[the worst]

James' original thoughts were a prime number night vig, and yeah basically to limit the number of deaths n1 (there is a small margin for catastrophe with a full ungated vig). I suggested the novice vig because I think it's a cleaner and probably slightly more balanced way to pull this off--though it's both balanced and swing.


@Ircher, I'd be on board for a 3 shot roleblocking activated ninja. let's see what James/SS say but I actually think that strengthens the intent of the role by not having them just spam RB for the lols.

[the worst]

is there much of a problem with the roleblocker shots being ninja'd?

[the worst]

I don't like it as much tbh but it does still force exposure to the other teammate who makes the NK being tracked.

[the worst]

That's absolutely fine, it's a (intentionally) interesting role.
I feel pretty good about all this, as long as James & SS are on board.

[the worst]

I'd personally have no issue throwing in a motion detector and changing the tracker to a watcher. having a higher number of less powerful inveetigatives > having a single powerful investigative imo (I hate the idea of great play being derailed by one random action - results should be earned dammit! lol)

(p.s. I'll always listen to you even if you're the secondary reviewer because your setups are great)

[the worst]

Town
Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Townie
Novice vigilante
Watcher
Motion detector
5 Vanilla

Scum
Ninja 2-shot roleblocker
2-shot loud Doctor
Goon
+ full predisclosed daytalk


Feels stacked but both teams are stacked and the prs aren't face meltingly powerful. definitely swing but I think stinginess is inherent in the concept of the setup

how does everyone feel about this?

[the worst]

good point there.

though the weak can't produce a true guilty--only innos or presumed guilties(still strong tho!)

the dynamic of watcher + motion detector is pretty interesting, I actually like this a lot better than one full medium-to-strong TPR.


Town
Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Townie
Novice Vigilante
Non-Consecutive Night Watcher
Motion Detector
5 Vanilla

Scum
2-shot Ninja Roleblocker
2-shot Loud Doctor
Goon
+ full predisclosed daytalk

[the worst]

What did you INTEND for the ninja roleblocker to be able to do? Hopefully we can work out the correct name from there.

fmpov the intention is to nerf both the ungated ninja and the ungated roleblocker suggested in the original setup by forcing them to either make the factional kill unseeable, OR perform a roleblocking action.


Ircher is dead right in saying that the ninja modifier is passive and therefore makes the RB ninja'd as well... imo the increase in utility from having the roleblock being unseeable is okay in the realms of this setup's balance. gating the number of roleblocks and keeping them as non-multitasking is far more important for balance I think.

[the worst]

I feel like ninja 2-shot roleblocker / loud 2-shot doctor are clearer names. but that might just be the weird way my brain works.

[the worst]

I think

{modifier} {shot count} {role} personally - more fun if the modifiers aren't gated.

Sorry if this part of the plan wasn't clear originally.

[the worst]

I was thinking a 2 shot roleblocker with full passive modifier (I think it's needlessly confusing otherwise).

we could do some kind of JOAT with 2 shots of each if you reckon that'd be better? in that case I'd probably make it clear that ninja isn't a **modifier** but rather an ability.

also wouldn't mind James having a read and letting us know if this still fits in with what he's thinking of.. I reckon we'll be okay tho.

[the worst]

huh just looking at the wiki

Roles which are explicitly Normal for Serial Killer only include:
Serial Killer, Ninja, Strongman, any roles listed as "for any alignment"

this doesn't sound right

[the worst]

Hold up
I’m thinking under this assumption:
1) Weak Babysitter targets scum
2) Babysitter dies
3) Because Babysitter dies, their target dies, which is the scum.
Is this not right?

aha
this is correct, but also

1) weak babysitter visits town
2) weak babysitter is shot
3) weak babysitter & target are shot
which means if their soft is ambiguous as to who they targeted, they may produce a false guilty

you may wanna use weak visitor

[the worst]

aha I was thinking all death flavour had to be uniform.
that's interesting.

[the worst]

weak visitor is p much fine i think

[the worst]

2 n1 flips is exciting :3

[the worst]

(I believe James is covering that side of things. but I have a pretty quiet day ahead so let me know if I can help James. )

[the worst]

here we go, geared towards clarity on roles more than anything else so if i've stuffed up anything from a normalcy pov pls sing out
also went for a stylistic choice of breaking up abilities and modifiers since we're using a fair few and i think it's clearer...

teh town

Spoiler: town visitor

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Weak Visitor

.

Abilities:

• Visit:
  Each night phase, you may visit a player in the game.
  
• Weak:
  If you target an anti-town player at night, you will die.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: vengeful townie

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Vengeful Townie

.

Abilities:

• Kill:
  When you are lynched, you may target another player in the game to attempt to kill them.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: novice vigilante

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Novice Vigilante

.

Abilities:

• Kill:
  Each night phase, you may attempt to kill another player.
  
• Novice:
  You may not target anyone on night one.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: non-consecutive night watcher

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Non-Consecutive Night Watcher

.

Abilities:

• Watch:
  Each night phase, you may target another player in the game and learn who, if anybody, targeted that player the same night. You will not be informed what the abilities were.
  
  Non-consecutive night:
  You may not use this ability two nights in a row.
  
  
  Win Condition:
  • You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: town motion detector

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Motion Detector

.

Abilities:

• Detect Motion:
  Each night phase, you may target another player in the game and learn if any abilities were performed on, or by, the target. You will not be informed what they were or who else was involved.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: vanilla townie

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

• You have no abilities except for your voice, and your vote. Good luck!

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

[/list]

teh muffiah

Spoiler: 2-shot ninja roleblocker

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia 2-shot Ninja Roleblocker

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
  
• 2-shot Roleblock:
  Twice in the game, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to block them from performing any night actions.
  
• Ninja:
  All actions you take will show up as no action to any hypothetical tracker, watcher or similar investigative role who targets you.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: 2-shot loud doctor

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia 2-shot Loud Doctor

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
  
• 2-shot Doctor:
  Twice in the game, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to protect them from being nightkilled.
  
• Loud:
  Any player who you target will be informed that you have targeted them, but not what action was taken.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: mafia goon

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

[the worst]

reminder to fix the formatting on non-consecutive night watcher

[the worst]

i'm keen to swap it around to

ninja 2-shot rb
loud 2-shot doc

i think that reads a little cleaner

[the worst]

all good suggestions. i'll edit the role PMs now for Jimmy's perusal.

[the worst]

teh town

Spoiler: town visitor

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Weak Visitor

.

Abilities:

• Visit:
  Each night phase, you may visit a player in the game.
  
• Weak:
  If you successfully visit an anti-town player at night, you will die.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: vengeful townie

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Vengeful Townie

.

Abilities:

• Kill:
  When you are lynched, you may kill another player in the game.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: novice vigilante

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Novice Vigilante

.

Abilities:

• Kill:
  Each night phase, you may attempt to kill another player.
  
• Novice:
  You may not target anyone on night one.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: non-consecutive night watcher

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Non-Consecutive Night Watcher

.

Abilities:

• Watch:
  Each night phase, you may target another player in the game and learn who, if anybody, targeted that player the same night. You will not be informed what actions those players took.
  
• Non-consecutive night:
  You may not use this ability two nights in a row.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: town motion detector

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Motion Detector

.

Abilities:

• Detect Motion:
  Each night phase, you may target another player in the game and learn if any abilities were performed on, or by, the target. You will not be informed what they were or who else was involved.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: vanilla townie

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

• You have no abilities except for your voice, and your vote. Good luck!

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

teh muffiah

Spoiler: 2-shot ninja roleblocker

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Ninja 2-shot Roleblocker

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
  
• 2-shot Roleblock:
  Twice in the game, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to block them from performing any night actions.
  
• Ninja:
  All actions you take will not be seen as visiting for any investigative roles.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: 2-shot loud doctor

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Loud 2-shot Doctor

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
  
• 2-shot Doctor:
  Twice in the game, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to protect them from being nightkilled.
  
• Loud:
  Any player who you target will be informed that you have targeted them, but not what action was taken.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: mafia goon

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

note:
the op of the thread must specify that scum have daychat.
the op of the scum pt should include a friendly reminder that nobody can kill and use an ability on the same night.

[the worst]

I'm all about Oxford commas my dude.
ok all groovy as long as James is happy! quoting for pagetop:

teh town

Spoiler: town visitor

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Weak Visitor

.

Abilities:

• Visit:
  Each night phase, you may visit a player in the game.
  
• Weak:
  If you successfully visit an anti-town player at night, you will die.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: vengeful townie

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Vengeful Townie

.

Abilities:

• Kill:
  When you are lynched, you may kill another player in the game.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: novice vigilante

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Novice Vigilante

.

Abilities:

• Kill:
  Each night phase, you may attempt to kill another player.
  
• Novice:
  You may not target anyone on night one.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: non-consecutive night watcher

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Non-Consecutive Night Watcher

.

Abilities:

• Watch:
  Each night phase, you may target another player in the game and learn who, if anybody, targeted that player the same night. You will not be informed what actions those players took.
  
• Non-consecutive night:
  You may not use this ability two nights in a row.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: town motion detector

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Town Motion Detector

.

Abilities:

• Detect Motion:
  Each night phase, you may target another player in the game and learn if any abilities were performed on, or by, the target. You will not be informed what they were or who else was involved.

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Spoiler: vanilla townie

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

• You have no abilities except for your voice, and your vote. Good luck!

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

teh muffiah

Spoiler: 2-shot ninja roleblocker

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Ninja 2-shot Roleblocker

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
  
• 2-shot Roleblock:
  Twice in the game, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to block them from performing any night actions.
  
• Ninja:
  All actions you take will not be seen as visiting for any investigative roles.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: 2-shot loud doctor

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Loud 2-shot Doctor

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
  
• 2-shot Doctor:
  Twice in the game, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to protect them from being nightkilled.
  
• Loud:
  Any player who you target will be informed that you have targeted them, but not what action was taken.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: mafia goon

Welcome, XXXX! You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Abilities:

• Factional Communication:
  You may talk to your group here at any time.
  
• Factional Kill:
  Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

note:
the op of the thread must specify that scum have daychat.
the op of the scum pt should include a friendly reminder that nobody can kill and use an ability on the same night.

[the worst]

I can, I will, and I did.