Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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Wow yay a townread (nsg)
Hypoclaiming is not what Burger thinks it is. Hypoclaiming is having every player say "If I got a guilty on someone last night, it was ____" or something to that effect.
Then, if and when the watcher flips from a NK, we have some idea of their previous night results. The problem with this is that most players will forget to actually act like they got the guilty they said they got. Also, with watcher, it's rare to get any result, so it's hard to hypoclaim "no result".
On the other hand, most of these are only problems because they make the watcher a clearer NK target. Since everyone is a backup, this isn't as big a deal (though it still matters because we lose one night of watching if scum NKs watcher)
Pretty sure the answer is "no hypoclaiming". If you get a guilty, drop that player down in your reads or start to tunnel them or just say you got a guilty, honestly. Lynching scum is worth losing one night of Watching, imo.
@Sesq or @Keyser have you played together before?-
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I don't know what this question meansIn post 55, GameNBurger wrote:Irrelephant you aren’t trying to distance yourself from me by addressing my direct question with an indirect tense response right?-
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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You seem to think you know why I'm asking this, and suggesting my question is therefore bad. You don't know why I'm asking this, though, clearly, so maybe just let me play how I want to
I know trying to shut down conversations you find unfruitful is something you do as town, but it can still just be really frustrating and unhelpful to those trying to read you through their own methods
Did you know what it was before this game? yes/no is all I need and then I'll explain and we can all move on-
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Well because the AI-ness is related to your answer
whatever I'm mostly just squinting and seeing if there's scumminess it's early game obvs
The thing I mayyybe find sus about Keyser is how he accepted Burger's explanation/analysis of hyopclaiming as a good one, when it wasn't (because he wasn't talking about hypoclaiming). I'd expect town!Keyser to be like "no that's not what I mean, someone else answer" if he knew what hypoclaiming was. I'd expect scum!Keyser to move on and try to let it be a small reason to townread him without too much focus on his slot, if he knew what hypoclaiming was.
If he didn't know what hypoclaiming was, it's not AI. So *shrug*, I guess this isn't super useful since apparently Keyser doesn't remember-
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No my vote was RVS but I can't decide how to feel about his one post being a response to Burger's game theory stuff. He didn't participate in RVS, or correct Burger on the definition of hypoclaiming, or suggest anything was AI
It's the lack of content from a player that has shown up that I find interesting-
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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Yeah, we kind of already covered this? It's on one of the three pages between the post you quoted and the post you wrote. There's nothing else you'd like to comment on?In post 104, volxen wrote:
Why did you feel the need to "remind" us not to townread you for posting a mathematical proof? I find it a bit odd to automatically assume that people would give you free towncred just for that one early game contribution. I get your point about people making the mistake of townreading based on effort alone, but I really don't think it was necessary to explicitly say that you don't deserve towncred for sharing a mathematical proof.In post 22, GameNBurger wrote:Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town
Anyways let that be a lesson to never do gametheory math late at night because youre bound to make idioitic mistakes, theres still a not great part of the stupidly simple model i used that doesn't account for the fact that T contains M in it, I should have broken it into P=t+M for more generalized use to make the death equation a bit easier to see the relationships
VOTE: Sesq-
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I just wanted to move my vote to someone more interesting/confusing
Agreed with Ausuka though that it's slightly towny how Sesq self-contradicts within a post
Disagree with Ausuka about VOTE: 2.178, who seems maybe overeager to justify eir own actions? on re-read
Ausuka you asked "what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?"
This is my question exactly. What does Dunnstral want us to think about him making only one mechanic-related post? Does he want us to just forget about him? Why avoid RVS if he felt RVS wasn't over? Why say so little if he thought RVS was over? Out of those with little to no content, his slot was and is most interesting to me (like 2% interesting, compared to other slots' 0%), which is why I brought him up.
Agreed re:Reundo overreacting to Keyser. I've done the same to Keyser though
When you say you don't "buy into" it, do you mean you don't believe people who say it or you just think it's bad play from town?In post 108, GameNBurger wrote:And I don't buy into that shit of "act bad then attract scum who try and attacks you or buys into it" because town has every right reason to call you out on that as scum does so its just a big showy waste of everyone's time that will cast doubt on ones self to the rest of the town-
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Keyser do you think it's true or not that Dunnstral was responding to everything said to/about him?In post 129, Keyser Söze wrote:
You've ignored some of the more pertinent (AI) moments of the game so far to share observations of 3 areas I'm not sure will help you find scum.In post 128, Dunnstral wrote:
Can you explain why this is suspicious?In post 121, Keyser Söze wrote:weird choice of posts to share comments on:
- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote
Plus, curious to see your naked vote explained (it's not RVS, as you said it's "serious").
@dunnstral at some point please do explain the sesq vote
no rush tho
@sesq Based on my last game with Keyser, he does this sort of "I'm done talking about it" thing as town. idk if he'd do it as scum, but it's something that weirded me out last game like it is to you now and it turned out to just be playstyle/personality.-
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I guess this is a pointIn post 134, Keyser Söze wrote:
Ah ok - well, you were the first person to name drop him (bring direct attention to his slot), but he hasn't addressed your suspicion yet...?In post 133, Irrelephant11 wrote:Sure - I just mean the list of things he talked about were all responses to things said to/about him-
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@Ausuka he just feels overeager to provide reasoning for his votes. At this early stage, as NSG pointed out, there’s a lot more for town to gain by keeping things close to the chest at times. 2718 seems like he’s the one that wants towncred (as opposed to the townsite reason for oversharing - to actually help others sort)
Really scraping the bottom of the barrel for reads here, though, I admit
VOTE: reundo-
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I was looking to start a wagon, and Reundo seemed lynchbait-y enough that some scum might jump on after it had three votes
That didn't happen, so I'm wondering if that makes him scummy (partners avoided him) or if this game is just this game
I'm also bad at finding scum D1, but we can try to PoE. You're my strongest townread, so that's my starting point for now-
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I think northsidegal has shown some insight into other's motivations in a way that scum!her might have a hard time doing
I think Keyser's actions have been anti-town (shutting down conversation on any level D1 is anti-town imo), but he's not all that scummy, either. I've seen him do the same as town and get incorrectly scumread (including by me) so I'll give him grace as long as he gets some good work in this game day
gotta go afk be back soonish-
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GNB is replacing out but his slot is meh.
He spent a lot of time talking about Keyser's question
I do wonder about his question to me "You're not distancing from me, are you?" because why would I intentionally distance myself from him as either alignment, unless we were both scum? Wish I could ask him about this, but in the meantime it mayyyybe sounds like he's scum worried about failing to be on the same side of things as town? It's a stretch but it's enough (combined with NSG's early point about calling his own work out as NOT TOWNY EVERYONE) to not include him in townreads
Hopefully his replacement turns things up a notch-
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I agree that 2.718 was towny in that post. I was "making something", both as an example and to try to get the game goingIn post 233, northsidegal wrote:In post 182, 2 718281828459 wrote:I see nothing that is worth my attention.In post 183, Irrelephant11 wrote:then make somethingwhy do you think that comment warrants a vote? very interested in your thought process here - perhaps this won't hold true for e*12 as a person specifically, but i would always imagine that scum in that situation would either post nothing at all or would try to come up with something they don't actually care about to talk about in order to look engaged. i actually townread him for that comment.
it reminds me of the way blackstar played in open 728, if anyone cares at all. if someone wants me to elaborate on this i can.
Ehhh I think it's tvt if I had to guess. Feels like you're saying "his posting style is slightly different, I see it in the punctuation" which I guess is something in this mostly slow game, but dunnstral is right that it comes across as a little silly for those of us who don't see what you're talking about intuitivelyIn post 236, northsidegal wrote:it angers me the way dunnstral has framed my argument, genuinely.
I think that this is mostly not a very good post and is honestly probably scum (one townread, one scumread, and two nullreads? Why include the nullreads, if it can safely be assumed they're at the same level as anyone you didn't mention? Seems like fluffposting, or posting about a scum partner for the sake of it (note to self: if this flips scum, look closer at NSG and GNB's replacement)).In post 237, volxen wrote:It’s been somewhat hard to try and get reads on everyone since the game started out with a lot of activity in the beginning and then quickly died way down, but here are some preliminary reads that I have so far:
Town Reads:
Keyser - I actually like that he started the game by asking about hypoclaiming in 13, it showed that right off the bat he wanted to strategize on how to potentially make things more difficult for the scumteam. This is only my second game on this site so I don’t have any firsthand experience with hypoclaiming or its effectiveness, but I think it’s not likely that a member of the scumteam would suggest this as a tactic, since it could, theoretically, allow the watcher to reveal who they got a guilty on while making it more difficult for the scumteam to identify the real watcher.
Overall, I feel like he is someone that has been genuinely trying to gamesolve and move the game forward. He hasn’t done anything that comes across as scummy to me.
Null Reads:
northsidegal – I’m not really sure what to make of the whole comma’s thing. It seems like a stretch, but maybe she will have more to say about it.
GameNBurger – As I mentioned in 125, GNB is currently a null read for me as most of his content is about the math proof, not wanting to be townread for the math proof, hypoclaiming, and lurking. I originally asked him why he felt the need to go out of his way to tell all of us not to townread him in 104, as I found this a bit suspicious and thought his response to my question might potentially be alignment indicative. However, I found his response in 108 to be fairly neutral, and not enough in and of itself to make me lean towards townreading him or scumreading him. Of course, he is being replaced so I will have to see what his replacement does, but for now this slot is still null for me.
Scum Reads:
2.718 – I really didn’t like his post-RVS opening in 91. I feel like he tried to completely misrepresent what Keyser really meant when he said that he didn’t want to talk about hypoclaiming/setup past page 1, and even after Keyser clarified this in 92 (that he wasn’t “forbidding” discussion but rather that he didn’t want to partake in it himself), 2.718 still continued to press the issue in 101.
I also didn’t like that in 91 2.718 was quick to side with Reundo in the Keyser vs Reundo argument that was going on at the time. 2.718 made the comment here that “Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I like how he looked ateveryone”. At the time, Reundo only had two posts, 46 and 50, in which he mainly focused on attacking Keyser, with only brief references made to Sesq, GameNBurger, and northsidegal in 50. 2.718’s post made it sound like Reundo was taking a balanced look at “everyone”, when in reality he was primarily just hammering down on Keyser. I feel like this was a very weak reason for 2.718 to jump in so quickly to side with Reundo.
I also find his town read of Reundo questionable in 151. He gave him a town score of 4.5, and all he really had to say was that Reundo’s post in 119 was “great”, without stating why he thought it was great or pro-town. So once again, he is defending Reundo without really providing any explanation or reasoning. And then in 182, he literally says “I see nothing that is worth my attention”, as if he is simply not interested in trying to find scum anymore.
VOTE: 2 718281828459
However, at the same time, I do find the 2.718/Reundo interactions interesting.
DumbIn post 243, Toranaga wrote:I see this picked up remotely but I'm not gonna put any effort in it just yet
Potentially looking to get the same towncred NSG just said 2.718 should have for his earlier "meh" post
Agreed, though I was sort of hoping we'd get to L-1 before this was said so as to give scum maximum scumtelling opportunity (e.g. if someone placed intent to hammer they'd be realllll scummy because this isn't really a case)In post 244, Dunnstral wrote:In post 220, Reundo wrote: I don't really understand the town-reads of volxen. Everything he's posted seems like surface-level scum-hunting based mostly around points that have already been brought up by others, and as a whole it seems like he's much more interested in garnering why player X scum-reads player Y than providing scum-reads of his own. I'm more worried about him than 2.718 at the moment.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: volxenThis momentum is pretty weird - I don't think Reundo's case in 220 is that compelling. Sesq looks bad here.
Sesq is definitely the worst here because my assumption is that Keyer's vote mirrored mine (getting a wagon going) and Ausuka's was based on volxen's more recent scummy post
Do you actually think your case is worth L-2? I'm not townreading volxen but neither am I really townreading you yet and I think it's obvious that regardless of your or volxen's alignment someone on this wagon is likely opportunistic scumIn post 247, Reundo wrote:In post 245, Dunnstral wrote:Who was town reading Volxen?
You were? Also 2.718 in his reads list. What's not compelling about my case?In post 193, Dunnstral wrote:Volx looks town to me-
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I mean if you think I was sheeping your "reasoning" here or your interest in voting him you're wrong. I clearly started the wagon on him because of his refusal to be productive, and you almost immediately followed with a vote without comment.In post 156, Kop wrote:I'd vote for numbers, because he is a one that stood out to me, from the quick glance,
Whatever that's a fruitless argument and I'll concede that your vote had some "progression" before I voted the slot. I townread you anyway so I'll drop it
I am interested in voting Toranaga because I think he's playing similarly to 2.718, but he's doing the scummy thingssecond. I guess Tor has slightly better pushing, but I think a wagon on a slot getting replaced is a bad choice-
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@NSG Sesq seems like a less than ideal lynch (not as bad as other slots, a little lynchbaity) but I was (and still sort of am, given the holiday) just trying to pop in while busy IRL. I don’t have a good enough reason to townread the slot to say I wouldn’t vote there, so I wanted to show I’ll compromise there
@Keyser that is actually a pretty good point and considering you used that reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions that went over my head last game maybe I should sheep you about it. Are you still hoping to lynch volxen?-
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@eragon,In post 418, Irrelephant11 wrote:what would you say if I told you scummy word choices were a reason to townread Keyser?-
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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posting style
And that's a good response. I do suggest that posting style/word choice is NAI for Keyser. I got caught up in scumreading him last game for word choices I thought were "stiff", "fake", or even "revealing of his scum mindset" and he was town all along (and more perceptive than me to boot). So while I don't want to get too involved in ending arguments that could reveal AI things, I think I do want to step in early to stop other players from making the same mistake as me-
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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Irrelephant11 HeJack of All TradesHe
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