Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown - {GAME OVER}

[hasdgfas]

/confirm

I'm pumped to play with this high-quality group of players.

[hasdgfas]

vote: PokerFace

because I can

[hasdgfas]

While I see what Ether was getting at, it's really reaching and gets a

FoS

from me.

[hasdgfas]

Why an FoS, hasdgfas? I've taken Ether's behavior so far as a slight protown sign...

I found her reasoning to be really, really stupid, in all honesty. She voted you, saying that it "wasn't random" simply because you said you were, what was it, the hottest dancing girl in the club? That's a very light reason to be voting someone before most of us know anything.

[hasdgfas]

It felt, to me, like accusing just to accuse, which always is iffy in my book. But like I said, that's my opinion. It just feels off to me.

[hasdgfas]

Why an FoS, hasdgfas? I've taken Ether's behavior so far as a slight protown sign...

I found her reasoning to be really, really stupid, in all honesty. She voted you, saying that it "wasn't random" simply because you said you were, what was it, the hottest dancing girl in the club? That's a very light reason to be voting someone before most of us know anything.

Does it bother you that I, too, mentioned that my vote on someone wasn't random?

Was it arbitrary? Were you just looking for a reason to vote someone in the "random phase"?

[hasdgfas]

Was it arbitrary? Were you just looking for a reason to vote someone in the "random phase"?

No, it wasn't arbitrary. I usually try and put at least a decent amount of thought into initial votes even if they don't have as much basis as votes that I place further down the line within a game. I usually try to choose people whom I think would make good springboards for discussion. Erg0 made a comment about my avatar which was probably just friendly conversation but if he was actually buddying up, he might have reacted differently after I made the comment. Also, Erg0 and I have played in a game recently where he was town and was wagoned early on so I wanted to see if his reaction here was comparable to his reaction in that game.

Either way, I questioned you about it because both Ether and I chose to mention that our votes weren't random but you chose to single her out for her non-random vote with an FoS and even went as far to call her reasoning "really, really stupid" but mentioned nothing about mine.

Yours seemed to be more arbitrary than hers, just based on what I've seen from the "random phase" before. Plus, there was more discussion about ether's non-random vote than yours, so I figured it was just a half-joking reason behind an arbitrary vote. Ether's didn't especially due to the fact that she said more people should be voting Glork. Let me show you what I mean:

You and your vote:

Vote: Erg0

for buddying up.

IGMEOY: Patrick and Ether

for 42%.

My votes are never random.

That's a very common "random vote phase" action, so it seemed like a normal somewhat arbitrary vote.

Now, Ether's:

Vote: Glork

for fishing.

My vote wasn't random.

Just saying.

Oh.

...well you should vote Glork anyway.

The first two were understandable, because my votes are never "random" either, at least, according to my definition of random. Now, when she adds the "you should vote Glork anyway" it takes on a whole different meaning to me. In a day start with no possible info, a vote in the first page of voting rarely has good reasoning behind it at all, and when people try to actually use their reasoning behind their first vote as enough reasoning to get others to vote, it seems wrong to me. I didn't see anything that was deserving of a bandwagon in that, but Ether is trying to create one. While we do need a start to the game, and this is a good one, I think Ether was trying too hard. Maybe an IGMEOY was a better choice than a FoS, but the point still stands. I found her to have much more conviction behind her vote than is usually found in the first vote of Day 1.

[hasdgfas]

Roland seems protown.

I'm not understanding how you can see this. I haven't seen roland really make any comments on anything this whole game.

[hasdgfas]

to be honest

Truly and honestly?

Are your other posts/statements/thoughts not meant "to be honest"?

noted for comment later.

[hasdgfas]

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

do you have any sort of reasoning for this?

[hasdgfas]

1. hasdfgas
I have glanced at a few games where he has been town, but not glanced at many games where he has been scum. Aside from "Weather Mafia" what other games have you been scum in?

Just one: Pine Barrens

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas, who do you suspect?

there's a couple people who I'm a bit iffy about.

rolandgarros hasn't really contributed anything at all, and he definitely needs to post more.

Glork is....slightly off. I've seen him in other games (though not necessarily played with him), and in this game, he just seems to be playing differently than normal.
His post #10, mentioned by others, seemed to me to be completely unnecessary and trying to start an argument between myself and Incog.
His post #27 seems to be just looking for something to goad incog with, not actual scumhunting.

PF seems to be basing his thoughts completely off of meta-ing, which, while it can be sometimes useful, isn't necessarily the best way of searching for scum, since players should be attempting to not allow their metas to bring out their tells.

I'm watching roland and Glork most closely right now, with PF up there as well. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone I'm suspicious of, but if I remember it, I will post about it.


I also would like to say that I'm not a big fan of people making lists of players that they find pro-town, especially without reasoning.

[hasdgfas]

the rolandhate has a double-standard that doesn't take Glork's town tell into account. Ick.

If you're talking about Glork finding him town, I simply can't agree with that at this point.

[hasdgfas]

the roland one especially just looks like he's going through the motions, asking roland to post more, when OGML told us 4 days previously that roland was being replaced.

Huh, well how about that. I completely missed that before.

If you're talking about Glork finding him town, I simply can't agree with that at this point.

What do you think of SSK? What did you think of Mizzy prior to her Gabe-card?

SSK. That's the one who I couldn't remember before. I didn't like his post #5 or #7. I don't like lists of people that someone finds protown unless they're specifically asked what they think about a person. I especially don't like it when it's just on "vibes." I mean, it's understandable that we somewhat want to find town, but it's more important to find scum, which SSK hasn't done at all. Looking closer at him, I feel comfortable with an

unvote, vote: mafiaSSK

Mizzy: except for her post #10 with all the qualifiers, she seems to be acting normally for her, so I'm not thinking she's scum at the moment.

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas, I really don't understand your recent vote on MafiaSSK or any of the content of your past few posts. Back in Post 164 you mentioned that you were most suspicious of rolandgarros, Glork, PokerFace, and this fourth person who you couldn't remember (we now know this to be MafiaSSK). You seem to be basing your vote on SSK on the fact that he created a pro-town list of people based on vibes and hasn't done any form of scum-hunting. Glork also made a pro-town list of people with at least one of those people on his list being based on gut and according to you he hasn't done much scum-hunting either but you've never voted for him or even FoS-ed him. Is there any reason why?

Incog, he's on my list of suspicions, so that equates into a FoS for everyone on it, even though I might not have formally said so. The reason I'm not voting him is that I'm currently suspicious of him mostly on gut, not enough to get a good case on him, but if you'd prefer a formal FoS, I can do that too.

Why is it suspicious for PokerFace to be meta-gaming people when you've included meta-analysis in your own posts? Is there a difference between how he's done it and how you are doing it?

Well, my problem with him is that he seems to only be meta-ing, and I really don't like that. I use meta as some of my arguments, but not as everything I do for the whole game.

[hasdgfas]

SSK hasn't contributed

anything

else useful, while Glork has at least been active and useful.

[hasdgfas]

(she's practically all metagaming, which he's supposed to hate)

OK, now I shall explain my thoughts on meta-ing, because apparently it hasn't been understood.
First off, I'm pretty sure I never said that I hate metagaming. What I said, iirc, is that meta-ing isn't always a great way to find scum.
The difference I see between PF's metagaming and Mizzy's metagamin is that PF is placing a very heavy emphasis on it, with that one large post(his post #5) metagaming, as far as I can tell, everyone in the game, and also saying that meta-ing is one of his biggest things to do for the game as a whole. He mentioned a couple of times to people that he wanted links to their games as scum, and what I gather from that is that he's going to see if they're acting similarly in this game as well. That's what I find iffy, because most people don't play scum the same way every game.
Mizzy, on the other hand, has done things like just comment on the fact that someone seems to be playing normally. That's not meta-scumhunting, like what PF is doing. Commenting on whether someone is acting normally or not is a different kind of meta-ing than seeing if they're acting like they did as scum in a previous game, at least IMO.
Does that make a little more sense or is it still confusing?

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas, I really don't understand your recent vote on MafiaSSK or any of the content of your past few posts. Back in Post 164 you mentioned that you were most suspicious of rolandgarros, Glork, PokerFace, and this fourth person who you couldn't remember (we now know this to be MafiaSSK). You seem to be basing your vote on SSK on the fact that he created a pro-town list of people based on vibes and hasn't done any form of scum-hunting. Glork also made a pro-town list of people with at least one of those people on his list being based on gut and according to you he hasn't done much scum-hunting either but you've never voted for him or even FoS-ed him. Is there any reason why?

Incog, he's on my list of suspicions, so that equates into a FoS for everyone on it, even though I might not have formally said so. The reason I'm not voting him is that I'm currently suspicious of him mostly on gut, not enough to get a good case on him, but if you'd prefer a formal FoS, I can do that too.

I don't get this. What you are attacking SSK has done, so has Glork. But yet your suspicions of Glork is mostly gut...Why should they be held to separate standards? When SSK posts a short list of who he has town vibes from, its scummy. Glork also does this, but yet your suspicion on him is still gut? Care to explain...

Glork, unlike SSK, has done other things besides just make a list of who seems protown. Glork also appears to be doing some scumhunting, which slightly makes up for his list of protowners. SSK has done absolutely nothing, which is unacceptable.

[hasdgfas]

/prodded

I will deal more with this game once a pressing deadline in another game has passed.

For the time being, I'm going to put some pressure on Elmo in the hope of getting some content out of him.

Unvote, Vote: Elmo

I find this to be a useless and hypocritical post.

Mizzy, on the other hand, has done things like just comment on the fact that someone seems to be playing normally. That's not meta-scumhunting, like what PF is doing. Commenting on whether someone is acting normally or not is a different kind of meta-ing than seeing if they're acting like they did as scum in a previous game, at least IMO.

Mizzy said that Ether is playing as she'd expect Ether to behave as town, did that bother you? You've said most people won't play the same as scum in every game, doesn't that apply equally well to town?

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

Although Glork certainly has more posts in the game so far, I'd hardly say he's been scumhunting to any great degree.

He's done more than SSK has, however.

Most of his posting is pretty vague and reasonless. hasdgfas' statement here reinforces my earlier feeling - he seems to be kind of shying away from Glork at this point, possibly in fear of his reputation.

What shys me away from Glork is that I know that he can be really useful and a great townsperson if he puts his mind to it, which is why I'm giving Glork a little bit more of a chance to stay.

I asked for questioning purposes. I wasn't sure if you were finding some tiny scumtells. I really don't like those. However, it does make sesnse that it could lead to accosiation with each other.

Okay. So who's scum? Do you seriously have nothing better to do than question the validity of an individual tell every 72 hours?

Its really hard for me to pick out a really scummish person in this game. Its so complex. And I don't have anything better to do than that.

Are you

serious?

In this ENTIRE game, you can't find anything or anyone scummy?

Hasdgfas, why are you lurking in the face of these accusations?

I'm sorry for not posting every day in this game.
The reason for my "lurking" is that I've been attempting to think of the words I want for me defense, but I can't get exactly the thoughts I need.

[hasdgfas]

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

Dude, have you

ever

played more than one game of mafia with me?

No.
This wasn't referring to you, btw, because your response makes it seem like you thought it was.

[hasdgfas]

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

I don't exactly agree with this. When I am town I just be myself. I don't try to act the same as I did before. As town one should be genuine and not need to act simular. Needing to act simular is something a mafioso would need to do to stay hidden.

If hasdgfas is going to be lynched at deadline he may want to claim early so that there is time to direct a lynch elsewhere.

I usually act similarly as town to my other town games, which is what I was trying to say. At least, I usually see people as acting similarly because they're acting like themselves.

Also, my claim isn't very impressive.
Ordinary patron, aka vanilla townie.

[hasdgfas]

SSK: Analyzing anything will be useful in trying to find scum. Why is it a bad idea to analyze debates? And what do you consider debates? I'd consider the entire game of mafia to be a debate, so you should probably clarify.

[hasdgfas]

Hasdgfas, you still haven't responded to my question about why you think PokerFace's metegaming play is scummy instead of just bad play.

All right
When you're metagaming, you're not paying as much attention to the game you're in, and missing any scummy actions people are making in the game.

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas: Why don't you like unprompted lists of pro-town people on 'gut' (181)? Why haven't you criticised Glork for doing exactly that? How precisely has Glork been 'useful'?

Hascow, ^ qwestions. And: why is 'reaching' in the random stage scummy? Why is 'being stupid' scummy? What's the best single reason that you're voting SSK?

The first two have already been answered previously in the game, I believe.
I don't think I ever said that Glork has been useful this game, I said I know he can be useful.
Reaching the the random stage is scummy because you're finding something innocent and unscummy and trying to make it scummy, with no reasoning. I felt Ether was making far too much out of Glork's comment, and thought it was suspicious. However, she's been very pro-town since then.
Being Stupid? Where did I call someone scummy for that?
He's being completely useless and evading questions. He also says he doesn't find anyone scummy, which is pretty ridiculous.

[hasdgfas]

Tar - I'd get off of SSK if not for one thing, that you yourself have mentioned:

MafiaSSK

- HOW FRICKIN' HARD IS IT TO SAY THAT YOU FIND SOMEONE SCUMMY? SPEAKING OF THAT, WHO DO YOU THINK IS SCUMMY, ANYWAYS?

I want some kind of opinion of SOMETHING from him, because I don't want him to be scum who has skated by while not giving any opinions of who is scum. He finds people town. Great, except that scum have a better chance of being right when calling people town than townspeople do, and that's not playing mafia.
SSK. Find someone who you think is scum and go after them. Maybe then you wouldn't be on so many people's scumlists.

The MafiaSSK attack is pinging my scumdar, too, since he's attacking him more for being useless than for being a threat to the town (classic scumlogic, there, especially as it offers an easy out to a mislynch).

I feel that someone who is useless IS a threat to the town, because if they're alive on later days when someone more useful is dead, the town's chances go down.

[hasdgfas]

Gut intsinct tells me that the ElmoWagon is chock full of opportunism and will almost certainly end in a mislynch. I'm levaing my vote on the Cow, and if Elmo turns out to be protown, I'll be looking at the last 2-3 who piled onto him, pretty much regardless of Cow's alignment.

Do you have any thoughts on why he's town besides "gut"? Gut's well and good, but it's not going to get people to listen to you.
If you're so worried about a mislynch, why not try to stop it? Why not comment on why you think it will be a mislynch? Why just comment about how you think it will end in a mislynch and you'll just look at the last 2-3 to pile on to him? This reeks of scumminess, Glork.

[hasdgfas]

I'm vanilla; I'm gonna

vote hasdgfas

for obvious reasons. I'm not sure there's any point writing a longer post, but I'll do it anyway.

Obvious reasons? The only things you've said about me are with regards to 2 ridiculously small posts. Do you have any other reasons for suspecting me besides those 2 posts?

[hasdgfas]

Scot is dead on.

I re-read overnight, and your scumgroup is Tarh, Cow, SSK.

Vote: Tarh

What brilliant reasoning behind this Glork. I always appreciate this sort of insight

[hasdgfas]

vote: Glork

I like Glork as scum in this game, and not just because of Tar's claim.

Scot is dead on.

I re-read overnight, and your scumgroup is Tarh, Cow, SSK.

Vote: Tarh

I'm not a big fan of claiming who the scumteam is when :
A) We don't know the size of it.
B) We haven't found even one of the scum
C) There is no reasoning

Cow still feels like scum, but he's actually third on my list.

So I'm third on your list now, was that the case yesterday? If so, why were you on me instead of one of the other two yesterday?

Incog, I think it meant "...from the people whom I listed as protown."

Defending a suspicious statement before the person who made it says anything.
In addition, Glork says he thinks SSK is scum. Why is he defending him?

Roland seems protown.

I'm not understanding how you can see this. I haven't seen roland really make any comments on anything this whole game.

Quality over quantity, baby.


Also, he used the word "rudimentary."

I think I've already commented on this, but I didn't see any quality from roland's posts up to that point in the game.

Unvote, Vote: hasdgfas

Less than a week left; let's get some action going.

Doesn't really give any reasoning for his vote on me here or anywhere at all in the thread. I mean, in his post 45, he rags on the people on the Elmo wagon for not having sufficient reasoning, but he didn't give any when joining my wagon. How is it different?

[hasdgfas]

Glork, can you comment on my post 364?
Because your response will end up deciding my vote between the two mutually exclusive claims today.

[hasdgfas]

unvote

while I ponder this. I want to hear more from Tar, and soon.

[hasdgfas]

I've pretty much accepted that I'm going to die. But since I'm pissed that I finally got myself into this game only to have THIS happen, I have one request before you run me up:
Let me run through and absolutely GRILL everyone to my heart's content. I'm going to be harsh, I am going to be nitpicky, and I am going to put every player under maximum pressure. Once I've had my fill, I will pick revise my most likely candidates for scum.

After that, you can do whatever the hell you want. Things are pretty much out of my hands, otherwise.

If you want to do this, I'm not going to stop you.

2) I saw a possible connection between Ether and Glork yesterday, so investigating Glork might also give me a better read on Ether. Speaking of that, now that I have her reaction to the Glork wagon (she was pretty supportive of Glork yesterday - note the "Glork's town tell" and "I would not be up for a Glorklynch; I am in the "Glork is allowed to suck on Day 1" camp." posts - but she claimed to believe me completely today), I now feel comfortable saying that Ether has moved firmly onto my scumdar.

HoS: Ether

I'm not really a big fan of this. What made you see a connection between Glork and Ether yesterday? I haven't seen anything of the sort, and I'm rather confident of Ether's alignment regardless of Glork's.

Then there's the comment that I think scot has already talked about, how Tar decided to find me scummy for thinking that SSK was scummy for being useless even though that was the same reasoning he gave.

Hmm, I think I need to reread Tar is isolation to pin down my thoughts on him compared to Glork.

[hasdgfas]

(Actually, I think I'm more pissed at the fact that people KNOW that when I get this ballistic over a game, I'm always protown. CovertOps vs DGB; Kingmaker II vs Pooky; Face-To-Face vs MBL; Lights Out 1 vs Pooky. If there are three reliable Glorktells, one of them is that when I raise hell all over a thread, you can damned well sure bet that I am protown and that I am stirring the pot to make the scums do something they're going to regret.)

the fact that you're saying this to us makes me trust it less. You could easily be playing off your meta in order to make us not lynch you.

[hasdgfas]

Cow, I don't fucking care. I'd give at elast 75% that I'm going to be lynched today in spite of whatever I say or do. I made that statement as a meta build for future games.

Actually, my point was that now that you have mentioned it, and know that you do it, it invalidates the entire meta, because you can do the same thing in any game now, regardless of alignment. Saying it did the exact opposite of building your meta.

[hasdgfas]

Nothing new to add here but /prodded.
I mean all the reasons above noted for Glork make sense for why he's scum unlike Elmo.

Do you have any other thoughts?

[hasdgfas]

why try to lynch a lurker?

Why lurk?

Its a playstyle that I find useful at times. It gives me a broader understanding of each player and their general attitude in the game.

Could you run that by me again? I don't understand how you understand players more while not interacting with them.

[hasdgfas]

Rereading tar, these are my thoughts:
he got prodded 4 times early during day 1, which I find rather ridiculous.

Then there's his post 7, where he claims to be ticked off that nobody is being aggressive and says that:

If no one else will take up the aggressive townie role, I WILL.

However, he makes 2 posts for the rest of the day. 1 explaining why he didn't have me on his list, and one EBWOP immediately afterwards. What happened to the aggressiveness?

Day 2:
He doesn't post until at L-2, and then he claims as opposed to defending himself, and claims before being asked, unless I'm missing something.
Then he HoS's Ether, and I don't really see the reasoning behind that. Could you explain the reasoning for suspecting Ether so much, Tar?
And while he's being a bit aggressive towards Glork, that's not an "aggressive townie" role, like what he claimed to take on yesterday. That's going after one person. What are your thoughts on everyone else in the game today?

Rereading Tar really hasn't made my decision between him and Glork easier, just the opposite in fact, as now I find both of them quite suspicious.

[hasdgfas]

1) How does "not paying a lot of attention" to you translate to "acting like town"?

1.Not paying a lot of attentions translates to them being town because they don't want to kill what is usually a townie.

Bzzt. Try again.

[hasdgfas]

Posting this in all my games: limited access until Sunday due to upcoming event.

That's where tar is

[hasdgfas]

orite. I forgot.

[hasdgfas]

Glork, you're a smart Mafia player. Let's assume you're telling the truth here and are actually this power-role Jailkeeper that you claim to be. First of all, we start with the fact that you're a pro-town

power role

. A power role is by definition a role that is completely unlike the rest; it's a stand-out among the crowd; something unattainable that only the select few could be. I find it ABSOLUTELY HARD to believe that you would think that all of the roles within this game, including the Vanillas all happen to be beautiful, exotic dancers like yourself. After all, you're a stand-out power role. Why would we all be just like you? What exactly would separate the vanillas from your beautiful power role-ness then? Did your role PM mention that you have

BIGGER BOOBS

than all of us or something?

Glork, surely you can see why I have a hard time believing this was all a breadcrumb, right?

Incog, I couldn't see it initially, but now you're just being dense, IMO. What else does he have to say to convince you?

[hasdgfas]

Right now, I'm planning on voting for Tar. Glork's most recent posts have been extremely convincing to me. However, I want eldarad to post some thoughts, because I don't want Tar hammered before eldarad has contributed his thoughts.

[hasdgfas]

Hascow

You were voting for MafiaSSK at the end of Day 1 when deadline hit. Why?
In particular, why

weren't

you on the Elmo wagon?

Because I found him the scummiest, and I didn't find him the scummiest, respectively.

[hasdgfas]

...but knowing the potential of you being lynched instead, and knowing your own alignment, why wouldn't you put an insurance vote on Elmo?

1) it was unnecessary, as he had more votes earlier than I did

2) I thought I'd be a good info lynch, as strange as that may sound.

3) Just jumping on the Elmo wagon at the end to simply save my own skin would look really, really scummy and might lead to more votes on me.

[hasdgfas]

2) Hascow's actions at the end of Day 1 seem a bit weird, and I don't like his answer to my question. (Or rather, I don't like his answer to the question that I was leading up to, but Glork got in first)

...but knowing the potential of you being lynched instead, and knowing your own alignment, why wouldn't you put an insurance vote on Elmo?

1) it was unnecessary, as he had more votes earlier than I did

So what you're saying is that you were happy with an Elmo lynch, but did not want to be seen to support it openly. I find the difference between outright support and acquiescence to be nil in that situation, and that fact that you chose to hide your support for the Elmo lynch by simply letting it happen rather than place a vote makes me very suspicious.

I didn't support it. Honestly, I thought it was just something randomly cooked up at the end of the day, and I didn't really have strong feelings towards elmo either way. How is outright support and acquiescence the same in that situation? I don't get that either.

4) I agree with Tar's assertion earlier that there seems to be a link between Ether and Glork. If Glork turns out to be scum, then I think Ether is scum with him.

I still don't get this.

For all other players, I think that my read of them is irrelevant at this point, since the Glork/Tar lynch is the only game in town.

Your read on players is anything but irrelevant, eldarad. Why keep your thoughts on them hidden?

[hasdgfas]

Would you rather I throw out my thoughts / opinions on the remaining players before day ends and essentially doom myself to a

maximum

50% chance of surviving, or should I take a chance and see if I can negate a kill attempt on me tonight?

Now would be good Glork just because if you think you'll die, you should get all your thoughts out there

[hasdgfas]

Tar

really

needs to talk if he expects to not get lynched.

[hasdgfas]

Major FoS: incog

[hasdgfas]

Major FoS: incog

Why?

You don't freaking hammer right after a scum confession,

especially

today, with the fact that Glork wanted to air his thoughts before his probable death tonight.

[hasdgfas]

Vote: hasdgfas

DING DING DING! I agree.

Vote: hasdgfas

What wonderful reasoning here. Mind elaborating a bit please?

[hasdgfas]

It just looks to me like you were fearful of voting for Glork since you knew he was town and because he has a good reputation of being a good hunter

It wasn't that I knew he was town, it was that I knew he had a reputation for being a good scumhunter, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt during Day 1. Would you have done the same, Incog? Someone like Glork could definitely be a great person for the town to have and could be extremely useful, so I didn't want to lynch him early and have him possibly turn up town. While we're on this topic, I'm going to bring up your hammer. As already mentioned, it was WAY too early after a confession of being scum. It seems to me like you simply wanted to get the day over with as early as possible. Why would you want to do that when we had plenty of ways of getting more information out of the day, and Glork in particular. Why vote so quickly after not believing Tarscum/Glorktown for the whole time?

[hasdgfas]

2) I thought I'd be a good info lynch, as strange as that may sound.

Elaborate.

Sure. I haven't played well this game and I know that. When/if I die, attitudes towards me can and probably will tell loads about everyone. Some people seem to have jumped on me and ran at me since the beginning of the game and some seem to just be suspicious of me recently after other people have. I felt that way during day 1 and I feel that way now, just due to the attitudes regarding me.

A couple other things:

Yes, let's all vote without saying why! That'll win the game for the town. Good plan!

I find this suspicious as I pretty much already said the exact same thing. It also doesn't feel totally sincere to me for some reason.

I'm also not sure whether Incog answered my first question, so I'll ask it again. When you know how good a scumhunter someone like Glork can be, why wouldn't you be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt during Day 1?

[hasdgfas]

I find this suspicious as I pretty much already said the exact same thing. It also doesn't feel totally sincere to me for some reason.

Or maybe you wanted an excuse to be suspicious of me because the OMGUS reason is bullshit and you know it?

What the heck does this mean?

As for Glork being a kickass scumhunter, yes he is, but he is also

capable of making mistakes

.

Ok, and how does that contradict my point at all?

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas, just in case you missed this before, here it is again:

hasdgfas, how do you feel about eldarad (MafiaSSK's replacement)? Since he's replaced in, I can't remember you mentioning another word of suspicion about him but yet you were all over MafiaSSK previously.

I have thoughts. Give me a day or two as I'm quite busy currently.

[hasdgfas]

here are a few of my thoughts on eldarad, that Incog wanted. Bear with me if I've said some of this already:

2) Hascow's actions at the end of Day 1 seem a bit weird, and I don't like his answer to my question. (Or rather, I don't like his answer to the question that I was leading up to, but Glork got in first)

...but knowing the potential of you being lynched instead, and knowing your own alignment, why wouldn't you put an insurance vote on Elmo?

1) it was unnecessary, as he had more votes earlier than I did

So what you're saying is that you were happy with an Elmo lynch, but did not want to be seen to support it openly. I find the difference between outright support and acquiescence to be nil in that situation, and that fact that you chose to hide your support for the Elmo lynch by simply letting it happen rather than place a vote makes me very suspicious.

That is not at all what I was saying. Has there ever been a lynch that looked like it was going to happen yet you disagreed with and you couldn't really do anything about?
That's what that was for me. I wasn't really happy with an Elmo lynch either, as the wagon grew far too quickly.
This twisting of my words and putting words in my mouth is very suspicious to me.

3) At present, I believe Mizzy to be scum regardless of Glork's/Tar's alignment.

Sure, I can see that, but why? I'd love some reasoning for it.

4) I agree with Tar's assertion earlier that there seems to be a link between Ether and Glork. If Glork turns out to be scum, then I think Ether is scum with him.

Hmm, interesting. What do you think now about Ether?

For all other players, I think that my read of them is irrelevant at this point, since the Glork/Tar lynch is the only game in town.

this is not a pro-town statement.

I strongly disliked hascow's actions at the end of Day 1 with respect to the Elmo wagon, and his answers on Day 2 really didn't help his cause. There were already a substantial number of votes on hascow when I checked in Today and whilst I have no problem with it, it is a super-speedy wagon. There has been no rush to hammer, which makes me somewhat happier.

You already mentioned that, but the wagon still wasn't good. Rather like mine, in fact. A bunch of people jumped on it quickly and with very little reasoning. It makes me want to look back at the Elmowagon to see who all jumped on that.


Anyways, I still think eldarad/SSK is scummy, and SSK claiming that scum will go after lurkers more than town, or whatever it was that he said, is ridiculous. Also note that he flipped scum in that game.

Since I'm sure Incog or someone else is going to ask me, the reason that I didn't say this before was because I thought it could wait, as there was no way that he was getting lynched yesterday.
Before someone notices what I said to SSK about ignoring the others, note that he had just replaced in, and it is always nice to get a replacer's thoughts on everyone. With the focus on Glork/Tar, if I had posted my thoughts on eldarad, it would have been more of a distraction to the town than if eldarad simply posted his thoughts on everyone.

I feel comfortable with a

vote: eldarad

at this point

[hasdgfas]

I am even more sure now that Eldarad is town. There is one situation in which my newest tell on him would cease to be true, but I don't find it at all likely. I'd rather not get into it right now. He and Mizzy really need to stop fighting.

Why do you not want to go into it if it, as you say, "clears him"? Isn't that something that you'd want to share with the town?

[hasdgfas]

Elmo: I think eldarad/SSK is scum, Ether apparently has something to make her think that he's definitely town, and due to the fact that I *think* she is pro-town right now, I want to know why, in case it influences my thoughts on him.

[hasdgfas]

You are saying that if they had questioned it earlier as opposed to later, it wouldn't have been a scumtell, but because they questioned it after she "challenged" that it IS a scumtell?

Yes, this is true. If hasdgfas truly felt that eldarad was scum and therefore vote-worthy, he should have immediately come into the thread and questioned Ether as to why she felt he was cleared as town. Waiting until only

after

Ether offered her challenge seems fairly scummy to me. hasdgfas even waited until after I questioned him about eldarad/MafiaSSK just to lay out his case and vote for him. In all fairness though, this could have been partially related to timing rather than having an association with my questioning of him, but I'm sure you get the point.

If you could see it as timing in one case, why not in the other?
In addition, Ether's two posts had very different tones. One said she was more sure eldarad was town, and I understand that people feel differently about other players. However, her second post mentioned her 'clearing' of eldarad. That, when I do feel like someone is scum, requires a comment much more than simply thinking someone town.

[hasdgfas]

Thank you for ignoring everything else I said about that same thing in the same post.

[hasdgfas]

I'm talking about 653->655.

[hasdgfas]

I was doing a little bit of rereading, and came across this:

But given that I'm not under suspicion - apart from a dodgy vote from Hascow - there's really no point going out of the way to clear me based on meta.

I'd like to know why eldarad thinks my vote on him is "dodgy".

[hasdgfas]

A question to all before I'm lynched, as there's no way it's going to change unless something really weird happens.
When I flip town, who are you going after? Don't avoid the question by saying that it doesn't matter either.

I'd like to know why eldarad thinks my vote on him is "dodgy".

Your whole basis for your vote was post 638. You never mentioned anything about me before then (although there was some sniping at MafiaSSK early on), so that post is the entirety of your case on me.

eldarad, Day 2 was basically a huge discussion about Tar v Glork. I didn't really have time or need to do an extensive post about you, because that would have just distracted everyone.

So what you're saying is that you were happy with an Elmo lynch, but did not want to be seen to support it openly. I find the difference between outright support and acquiescence to be nil in that situation, and that fact that you chose to hide your support for the Elmo lynch by simply letting it happen rather than place a vote makes me very suspicious.

That is not at all what I was saying. Has there ever been a lynch that looked like it was going to happen yet you disagreed with and you couldn't really do anything about?
That's what that was for me. I wasn't really happy with an Elmo lynch either, as the wagon grew far too quickly.
This twisting of my words and putting words in my mouth is very suspicious to me.

Sorry, but that's exactly what you were saying. Whatever you thought of the Elmo wagon, you preferred it to your own lynch. You didn't attempt to stop the Elmo wagon, and you allowed it to happen without committing to it yourself.
Accusing me of "twisting your words" is just...empty. In addition, Glork agreed with what I was saying, and he's guaranteed town. So even if you think I'm wrong, I don't see how you can question my sincerity.[/quote]
Eldarad, are you saying that if I had jumped on Elmo, you wouldn't be jumping all over me for just voting him to try to save myself? Because that's what I've seen in those sort of situations before. I just think you're harping on this for no good reason and that you would have no matter how I handled it.

Anyways, I still think eldarad/SSK is scummy, and SSK claiming that scum will go after lurkers more than town, or whatever it was that he said, is ridiculous. Also note that he flipped scum in that game.

The issue isn't whether MafiaSSK was wrong - the issue is whether he was sincere. How does that further SSK's scum agenda?
The fact that MafiaSSK flipped scum in the other game doesn't mean anything.

If SSK is lurkerscum, why wouldn't he try to convince people that he was doing it for a reason?
How can you say that him flipping scum in the other game means nothing? Please explain further.

Unless Hascow has something really important to say, the upshot of all that is that I'm happy with a cowlynch Today.

vote Hascow

So if I do have something important to say, you're not happy with lynching me? I don't understand why this is here at all.

[hasdgfas]

5 hours to deadline and I'd still like an answer to this question before night hits.

A question to all before I'm lynched, as there's no way it's going to change unless something really weird happens.
When I flip town, who are you going after? Don't avoid the question by saying that it doesn't matter either.

[hasdgfas]

Sorry for totally sucking up this game guys. I don't know what got into my head while I was reading this game, but it wasn't what I was supposed to be doing and thinking.

Plus, Tarhalindur played one of the best games in a losing effort I've ever seen. He managed to pretty much thoroughly confuse the town enough to almost pull off a win even though he was dead, at least that's how I saw it. He managed to look like he was defending me by attacking elmo, made elmo seem like confirmed town because Tar jumped on the wagon and bussed him so hard D1 and getting people off of me, and a few other things I can't remember right now. I just wish I was actually a bit more involved in this game. I didn't put the effort I could have into it, because as soon as I died and looked at stuff, I called out Erg0 as scum(OGML can confirm this) due to his DSA, which really sucked.

If I think of more, I'll mention it. Nothing atm though.

[hasdgfas]

I called out Erg0 as scum(OGML can confirm this) due to his DSA, which really sucked.

LOL ouch. Obviously I was faking it here, but I do that analysis in pretty much every game, and it's usually reasonably effective. The typical reaction from the rest of the town is "huh, that's nice. vote: other guy". I think the problem was that I left it until too late in the day, but I was really struggling with access at that point so I couldn't get it done sooner.

A lot of it was what you left out, meaning everything after claims, which can be very important in figuring out connections to dead scum.

[hasdgfas]

So do you, Tar.