Open 734: Paris Mafia (13-player variation) - Game Over

[Jingle]

CFD?

[Eragon]

chinese fire drill, term for a last-minute wagon switch

[Jingle]

I disagree. If someone has the same reasons as me for thinking something when I haven't made those reasons well known, it stands to reason that they are more likely to be approaching the problem from the same angle. The inverse tell is infinitely more valuable (Someone agreeing with you for made up or insane reasons is a pretty good indication that they are in fact not the same alignment as you, and rather that your original read is simply convenient to them), but weak evidence is better than no evidence in a vacuum.

In either case, this particular line of discussion seems fairly useless at the moment.

[Almost50]

Aiming the watcher (and to a lesser extent, the vig) is a terrible idea, because publicly aiming a watcher means scum know exactly who not to shoot and the mimes know exactly who not to roleblock.

Except I didn't aim the Watcher? In fact I deliberately "forgot" to make a mention of them at all! For all practical purposes an inexperienced/inattentive Watcher would have missed this "option" far more likely than the Mafia would have missed the existence of a Watcher!

[Kmd4390]

Vote Count

Almost50 - 5 - Eragon, Nero Cain, RockyHorror, Sesq, lane0168
Sesq - 4 - innocentvillager, GuiltyLion, FA_Q2, Almost50
lane0168 - 3 - Fink, Jingle, Thor665

Not Voting - Aristophanes

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday September 2 at 10pm EST

[Jingle]

There was also this little gambit I had set (albeit it being of a small chance of succeeding) which is assigning the Mafia target. It was in hopes the Mafia duo are both inexperienced or not paying enough attention and would somehow forget about the Watcher when they think of the NK. The Watcher would have automatically been on the Mafia target to catch one Mafioso if that's the case.

Aiming the watcher (and to a lesser extent, the vig) is a terrible idea, because publicly aiming a watcher means scum know exactly who not to shoot and the mimes know exactly who not to roleblock.

Except I didn't aim the Watcher? In fact I deliberately "forgot" to make a mention of them at all! For all practical purposes an inexperienced/inattentive Watcher would have missed this "option" far more likely than the Mafia would have missed the existence of a Watcher!

Ftr, I still think the potential beauty of 443 is worth keeping you around for a day. But wow.

[Almost50]

@Jingle: while you replaced in after I was NK'd in Pine's "Project Pinecone" I was still following that game until it ended. There's also a 3rd thread we share where I can see your posts and thus can get a feel about your thoughts from your arguments. It's not a "game thread" but I sill am not sure if being more specific is still breaking the rules, so I'll stop at this.

[Almost50]

There was also this little gambit I had set (albeit it being of a small chance of succeeding) which is assigning the Mafia target. It was in hopes the Mafia duo are both inexperienced or not paying enough attention and would somehow forget about the Watcher when they think of the NK. The Watcher would have automatically been on the Mafia target to catch one Mafioso if that's the case.

Aiming the watcher (and to a lesser extent, the vig) is a terrible idea, because publicly aiming a watcher means scum know exactly who not to shoot and the mimes know exactly who not to roleblock.

Except I didn't aim the Watcher? In fact I deliberately "forgot" to make a mention of them at all! For all practical purposes an inexperienced/inattentive Watcher would have missed this "option" far more likely than the Mafia would have missed the existence of a Watcher!

Ftr, I still think the potential beauty of 443 is worth keeping you around for a day. But wow.

Hell, this was waaaaaay after the fact.

When I first proposed the "Vig shoot X and Mafia shoot Y" I ommitted the Watcher talk on purpose.
Then you came in and explained it, so IF Mafia were unaware of the fact they are now.
I thus explained what I was doing and why I omitted the Watcher talk.
Your response is I did mention the Watcher in that last post which was explaining why I

didn't

make a mention in them before???

Like..
="Eat these cookies. They're yummy"
-"But they're made with peanut butter and they're allergic to peanut butter."
="Hell, you blew it. I was hoping they wouldn't notice and would choke on it."
-"Well, they cannot not realize when you've already mentioned it."

WHAT IS THIS?

[Almost50]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

[Fink]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

Your reads are equally strong? I thought your mimeread on Lane was just based on interactions with Sesq. If that's true, that ought to be a weaker read since we don't have a Sesq flip.

[Jingle]

Ah, project pinecone. The game where I replaced into a town slot in a PoE-able game because Pine asked me to, refused to actually read the thread (not only the part before I subbed in, but the play of people after I subbed in) and buddied the serial killer until he shot all of the scum before lynching him on balance arguments. A shining example of how I generally approach games.

As far as knowing about how I think, I've waxed poetic about it in many of my games, including the postgames where I had no real reason to lie. Probably the best way to get into my head so to speak is to read one of the Newbie's I've played, because I go out of my way to educate people on my ideas about how to play mafia in said games or to look at one of the games I reviewed. If anyone wants links, I keep them around, but my standard scumplay is to literally forget who my partners are and setup spec in the most protown manner I possibly can. And what's more important is that you know that firsthand.

[Jingle]

There was also this little gambit I had set (albeit it being of a small chance of succeeding) which is assigning the Mafia target. It was in hopes the Mafia duo are both inexperienced or not paying enough attention and would somehow forget about the Watcher when they think of the NK. The

Watcher would have automatically been on the Mafia target

to catch one Mafioso if that's the case.

Aiming the watcher (and to a lesser extent, the vig) is a terrible idea, because publicly aiming a watcher means scum know exactly who not to shoot and the mimes know exactly who not to roleblock.

Except

I didn't aim the Watcher

? In fact I deliberately "forgot" to make a mention of them at all! For all practical purposes an inexperienced/inattentive Watcher would have missed this "option" far more likely than the Mafia would have missed the existence of a Watcher!

Ftr, I still think the potential beauty of 443 is worth keeping you around for a day. But wow.

[lane0168]

You think sesq is a mime but just stated hammer intent?

(I understand not worrying about the mimes until we actually lynch one, but still hammering someone you think is mime is weird

Considering I straight up said in the hammer intent post that I townread A50...

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

Who is doing B?

Couldn't tell you. Is there another possibility of why people aren't following you? If you think it's exclusively that people disagree with you, why is that suspect?

I think the possibility I'm currently seeing is you're arguing the point from emptiness just to try to beat it down. Bringing up counterpoints youc can't support is not an interesting or pro-town conversation.

I do think Nero is likely town, although it's a weak read at best. 1st, his jump to A50 reads as a genuine scumread. 2nd, his reads progression about a50 matches up with mine fairly nicely. 3rd, the posts in which he does content (particularly 299) feel like they're actually going somewhere.

So basically the town read is mostly predicated on the value of your A50 read?
That's a silly stance.

Regardless, I think that my A50 wagon is clearly superior to your Nero wagon.

It certainly is in size and support...for...some reason.

@Sesq

- hi, I think A50 is town and you're a Mime.
I'm stating Mjolnir intent on you.
Please claim.
I'm also willing to take non-presence as a scum claim, so keep that in mind.

What's my counterpoint? I simply asked what is suspect, and you keep not answering it. Twice in fact. Now you're just throwing shade for no reason.

You're literally quoting posts that contain me explaining why I think it's scummy.
To restate it for the third time for you - I think running up one person for 'Case A' while ignoring another person that 'Case A' exemplifies is very questionable for both parties involved.

What *did* happen was you tried multiple times to try to handwave my suspicion by making up cases that *YOU* didn't back up.

I'm very happy there's wagon interest in you now though, so I can do this;

Vote: Lane

Feel free to quote me avoiding answering your questions.
I'll wait

Here's a quote where you snowed avoided answering the "why" got a third it fourth time. Instead repeating that you think it's questionable. And still not saying why it's questionable that everyone was doing it.

What cases am I making up? This is pretty bad play from you

[lane0168]

Wow, let me try that again. "Here's a quote showing you avoiding answering the"why" for a third or fourth time

[lane0168]

I most certainly am noticing that. But what's not amazing to me, is people not jumping from a leading wagon to a non wagon for essentially the same case.

Yeah, but that they chose Sesq over you is a thing.

Here's me "avoiding explaining my issue" to Lane.

Yes that's another quote of you not telling anyone why that matters you can say facts all you want. I even agreed with them. But you do nothing to explain why it matters.

[lane0168]

Is is strange that ppl want to lynch scum over Lane? Also, you seem content sitting on a not scum wagon so your whine that we aren't lynching Lane seems odd.

It is not strange that people want ot lynch scum over Lane and I never said anything of the sort - what I did say was that Lane perfectly matches a large number of cases people are pushing, yet I'm the only one looking at him and *that* is suspect (which it is). Want to debate my actual statements instead of a straw man?

You haven't done mch to convince me you're not a scum slot - your predecessor was scummy and this has been very lacksidasical Nero play thus far. Are you claiming I should have a town read on your slot for some reason? Why?

Here I am explaining it to Nero when he asked.
Gosh, I am working so hard to avoid explaining my thought here.

Again, another perfect example of you not explaining why it matters or what exactly is suspect of it. You're just saying things to make it look like you're doing something

[lane0168]

@thor, why is it suspect that either A) people disagree with you or B) people agree that the case is equally strong as several others and don't see the point in starting a new wagon that is equally likely to flip scum?

Who is doing B?

Couldn't tell you. Is there another possibility of why people aren't following you? If you think it's exclusively that people disagree with you, why is that suspect?

Here's Lane hard dodging me questioning his defense of himself - for anyone not keeping track.

Lane then claimed that I'm not explaining my case and that he isn't trying to make a point against it?
Seriously now.

Holy hard misrepresent Batman... I'm not defending shit. In fact I've agreed with you SEVERAL times. Why are you lying? You aren't explaining your case further than it being the same as others... I certainly NEVER claimed you didn't say that. Again, are you lying?

[Jingle]

VOTE: Lane

[Almost50]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

Your reads are equally strong? I thought your mimeread on Lane was just based on interactions with Sesq. If that's true, that ought to be a weaker read since we don't have a Sesq flip.

I had them linked together as early as the top of page 2:

Sesq is good scumm but she hasn't yet done anything scummy (well, a far fetched idea is that she is scum with lane and they're distancing already).

I was "more to it" on page 8:

Anyway, having thought it over..

IF

lane flips Mime, Sesq would be his likely p. I don't trust their cross voting of each other and I could see that as coming from a Mime team (obviously to get half the job done) or from a Scum team (merely distancing).

So, I think I had a "semi-conviction" that the two are of the same alignment way before I decided Sesq was a Mime because of the way she fought (or rather didn't) against her wagon. They're like "interchangeable". If X is Mime then Y is Mime where X is either and Y is the other in no particular preference.

[Eragon]

VOTE: Lane

werent you already voting lane?

no matter

VOTE: Lane

[Almost50]

Like, if I'm the Vig and either of them flips Mime I'm definitely shooting the other. I'm probably gonna get blocked for this declaration though.

[Jingle]

So, my vote now decides which of the MIMES is the counter wagon to mine!

For all practical purposes it's all the same to me since I believe them both to be Mimes, so I'll wait for one more vote on either to decide where my vote should be.

Your reads are equally strong? I thought your mimeread on Lane was just based on interactions with Sesq. If that's true, that ought to be a weaker read since we don't have a Sesq flip.

I had them linked together as early as the top of page 2:

Sesq is good scumm but she hasn't yet done anything scummy (well, a far fetched idea is that she is scum with lane and they're distancing already).

I was "more to it" on page 8:

Anyway, having thought it over..

IF

lane flips Mime, Sesq would be his likely p. I don't trust their cross voting of each other and I could see that as coming from a Mime team (obviously to get half the job done) or from a Scum team (merely distancing).

So, I think I had a "semi-conviction" that the two are of the same alignment way before I decided Sesq was a Mime because of the way she fought (or rather didn't) against her wagon. They're like "interchangeable". If X is Mime then Y is Mime where X is either and Y is the other in no particular preference.

As much as I despise this train of thought and argument, look at the effort Lane is putting into defending himself.

This reads more like "Scum caught for the wrong reasons" flailing than "Oh yeah, I WANT to be lynched but need to disguise that". The frustration is real. Funny, but real. Therefore, Lane is probably not a mime. So vote him.

[Jingle]

Like, if I'm the Vig and either of them flips Mime I'm definitely shooting the other. I'm probably gonna get blocked for this declaration though.

[Fink]

If Lane is mimebuddies with sesq, why flail so hard? Sesq would be more likely to get lynched if the Lane wagon goes nowhere.

Either
Lane is mime but not with Sesq
Lane is mafia and wants that sweet sweet mime wine (in front of us)

I feel even better about this vote now.

[Almost50]

my standard scumplay is to literally forget who my partners are and setup spec in the most protown manner I possibly can. And what's more important is that you know that firsthand.

Wait! I'm confused. Are you admitting your setup spec here was sub-optimal? Because if you think what you did here in this game was "the most protown manner you possibly can" then you're saying your play her coincides with your scum play in general!

No matter.

VOTE: lane