What is truly Bastard - and what is not?

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Post Post #1  (isolation #0)  » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:19 am

hey

This is the description that is wildly accepted on MS for bastardness:

cults, mid-game alignment changes, moderator lies that cannot be reasonably anticipated (for example, Godfather, Tailor, Miller, Ninja, and mechanics like that are generally fine. Telling someone they are a reflexive doctor when they're actually a PGO is not), secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game

So

Would you say that a Godfather is Bastard? No
A Jester when its presence is known? No
Is Cult bastard(I'd say YES)? Yes
Mod lies in the Role PM? Yes
Is the lack of role or alignment randomization bastard, especially with flavor? Yes for Alignment but No for Roles unless if mod lies about it or keeps it hidden. A Upick, for example, is not bastard. or if the game has some sort of picking phase or ability assigning phase that is based on the players, flavors or even not pregames randomness it's not bastard - unless if the moderator doesn't clarify publicly that's how it's getting handled.
A reflexive Bulletproof Vigilante that is self-aligned as Serial Killer type, in the same game as a Town Vigilante? No

But not being bastard doesn't mean something is Ok. The true objective is fairness for players and their fun so these mechanics should all be meaningful in the setups that have them. For example, Jesters are usually very not fun and a game host should be really hesitant when putting something like that in a game.

I hope I helped :]
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Post Post #3  (isolation #1)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:52 pm

All sort of alignment change mid-game - known and unknown are considered bastard on mafia scum.

Personally, I think knowing you're alignment might change doesn't change anything about how seeing it changed midgame, is bastard. For example, you play so hard to lead town and then you're culted and now you must try to make them loose. No matter if culting mechanics is public or not, that is still the same unpredictable change of goals midgame that is what bastard games mostly are.
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Post Post #5  (isolation #2)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:32 pm

I wouldn't call cult games "bad" just "different" and as they have elements that interfere with game integrity they work better with players who know stuff like that might happen midgame (are warned about the bastardness)
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Post Post #11  (isolation #3)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:19 am

In post 9, Prof Fridays wrote:The "bastard" term I think is bad, as it gives a negative connotation when that's not necessarily warranted. I've played balanced Cult games that were otherwise normal, and it seems a shame to label it "bastard." I would like to split the definition, like Umlaut's definition can be "bastard" (as mod bias/lying seems actually fitting of the label) and cults and the rest can be "unconventional" or something. Just spitballing.


The term bastard has no negative implication - it's just a class of not normal games that has several factors that can affect the game integrity midgame
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Post Post #12  (isolation #4)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:21 am

Also the cults = midgame alignment changes

you can't for certain say what you were doing day 1 is actually beneficial for your final win condition = game integrity breach = bastardness

It's not about what someone like or dislike and it has nothing to do with certain game balances. It's about the nature of "lie" in it and how deeply it can intefer with the mindsets and the natural process of the game
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Post Post #13  (isolation #5)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:23 am

Also preannounced cults is just a more specific way of announcing bastardness before game starts (instead of announcing the game is bastard which can have several other meanings you just announce that it has a cult)
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Post Post #18  (isolation #6)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:04 am

The category for cult games is "bastard games" "not normal"

again, a game being bastard doesn't mean the game is bad or that it's not fun or not balanced. The term bastard means there might be several elements that will affect the game integrity in a way that is not predictable by players.

The bastardness of cult is not because cult is not announced in game x. it's because of the wincondition change midgame So you never truely know if you're actually playing toward your wincondition or not. Announcing the game has cult will allow people to know what are they signing up for which is what should happen all the time imo. Announcing there is cult in game is way better announcement than generally announcing this game is bastard cause there are several other elements that are bastard.
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Post Post #24  (isolation #7)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:24 am

In post 22, vonflare wrote:are alignment changes totally in control of the player being changed bastard? for example,

"You are a town doctor. At night, instead of performing your action you may choose to become a neutral survivor instead"

chosen alignment change instead of forced.

discuss?


there is one bastard part of it that still remains:

for every other player, their content before the alignment change was a from a town mindset and their content from after the alignment change is from a survivor mindset. Now their wincondition and agenda is changed so using their previous posts to understand what they were doing and what are they is technically useless. But the other players won't know that's possible if the game is not announced at Bastard. Technically for mechanics like this, I suggest completely open or semi-open setup or mechanics or just announcing bastardness just to be safe.
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Post Post #26  (isolation #8)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:44 pm

it's not about playing differently

its about having different motivations/final goal/wincondition.

and the arguement is still very valid.
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Post Post #27  (isolation #9)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:48 pm

Bastardness is about in-game integrity breach. Its about if players have fair chance in figuring the game out. changing someone wincondition is bastard because of that regardless if they do it willingly or unwillingly.
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Post Post #30  (isolation #10)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:31 pm

yeah exactly
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Post Post #37  (isolation #11)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:38 am

In post 31, 2 718281828459 wrote:OK, but:
(1) No one responded to my post about delayed roles.
(2) For deciding to change your role willingly, you will probably play as though both are possible. Like the doc that can become a survivor, how could someone tell that apart from a scum who was just really good at faking town. Although I guess if you had no idea that it was in the game...
(This reminds me of a miccro I just completed where I was a serial killer and thought for sure that there would be mafia, especially considering I was 1-shot BP, but there was none.
(3) "Its about if players have fair chance in figuring the game out." But then what if you just have a closed game with lots of Normal roles but it is near impossible to figure out and scum might think it is MyLo with a Doctor-proof kill and play accordingly only to get jailed.


1) I answer after this
2) That is if you know you have that option since the start of the game. Still, others won't know a double agent win condition thing that can backstab them is on the table if the game is not bastard and they can't hunt for it. Mafia is all about how good are players in deducing what alignment are others. if you remove this ability from them by increasing the factors without letting them know when you're not running mafia- that's why you must announce that your game is bastard before it runs.
3) Balancing games are another subject. I never said bastard games are bad. Unannounced bastard games are bad. Unbalanced games are worse than that. On another note, The game setting should not always be figurable. That's not the point of announcing the game is bastard. For most bastard games even if you announce its bastard the game setting is not figurable.
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Post Post #38  (isolation #12)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:44 am

In post 32, 2 718281828459 wrote:
In post 12, Frozen Angel wrote:Also the cults = midgame alignment changes

you can't for certain say what you were doing day 1 is actually beneficial for your final win condition = game integrity breach = bastardness

It's not about what someone like or dislike and it has nothing to do with certain game balances. It's about the nature of "lie" in it and how deeply it can intefer with the mindsets and the natural process of the game

One more thing. When you play mafia, most of your play is uncertain. When you lynch someone, you do not know if it is towards your win condition or not until after the lynch. A doc who protected a known cop may seem to be useful until it messes up the parity in a forced-lynch game. A jailer tries to save a probable lynch target in night 3v2, but unfortunately that target was an important PR and town loses the LyLo.
Having there be a chance of an alignment change is just another layer of uncertainty just like with any complication.


Here is my post about delayed alignments, for reference:
In post 21, 2 718281828459 wrote:Another question about alignment changes.
What about if you have "no alignment" until you are given an alignment later? Examples:
1. In a multiball game, you are told that you will be drafted to a random scum team, starting night 2.
2. Your role is "uncertain": if the Mafia attack you in the first three nights, you become a Mafia. If that does not happen then you become locked-in town.
3. Divide the players into 4 groups: Red, Green, Blue, and Neutral. The first three colors each have a factional attack kills members of a specific faction (Red can kill Green, Green can kill Blue, Blue can kill Red), and irreversibly recruits a Neutral. (If a Neutral dies by lynch, then that player simply loses.)

In any of these cases, you would know that it is happening, and until you get drafted you receive no alignment.

(3 is specific because I might actually want to run that some time.)


This is a very wrong way of arguing. Yes, the mafia is an uncertain game but just until moderator rands people alignment. The game is not uncertain after randomizing it's just that players are in blank state and are not informed about the certainties. That doesn't mean you won't know or that you can't try to win the game. Also, that's way different than randomly changing something midgame and that's why moderators can not have direct influence in-game midgame. It's totally ok if a moderator is putting a random element in the game before the game starts when designing it. they can't add something random to the game on their own will cause that will destroy the certain state behind everything that players were trying to figure it out (what I called an integrity breach).

Regarding the other question You having no alignment means "pregame" for all purposes. there is no point in playing the game till you know how can you win it. (or at least to know some hints about how can you win the game)
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Post Post #39  (isolation #13)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:45 am

I'll talk about the rest of the posts in the thread in the next few hours. I have to go out atm so sorry!
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Post Post #42  (isolation #14)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:42 am

In post 40, 2 718281828459 wrote:OK, clearly my examples of delayed alignments were awful.

About the one where you got recruited if attacked in the first three days, that role was only going to be given to 1-2 players, with the rest being locked-in town or locked-in scum. Although I guess then the game has other problems with it depending heavily on the randomness of hitting one of those targets. But even then, that is simply a badly-designed game, which is not what we are talking about.

Also, in all "delayed alignment" games that I was considering, you have a temporary goal of surviving. So, if you get lynched before you receive an alignment, you just plain lose. People may read your lack of effort as scummy and lynch you, and if you claim, they might be suspicious of you if you do get drafted as scum.

Something that might be more balanced is this: you join the same team as the day-1 lynch victim, and you get a vanilla role. (That does not mean the day-1 lynch is useless -- hitting scum can give information and hitting town might destroy a useful PR.)
EDIT: But let's not get into the specifics of one kind of delayed-alignment setup.


So they are a survivor at start and they get their alignment after on. thats pretty much just a normal alignment change and nothing else and its bastard for every other reason I mentioned. and again being bastard is not bad. its just a type of game that must be clarified before start signing up.
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Post Post #44  (isolation #15)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:15 pm

Yes I can agree that it's less bastard since its not as ambiguous alignment change as cult is
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