Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!


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Post Post #625 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:12 pm

Post by Toranaga »

yeah I'll do it tomorrow mate, I have to bounce now
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Post Post #626 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:48 pm

Post by the worst »

no probs, catch you next time
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #627 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:07 pm

Post by Ausuka »

[quote="In post 603, Dunnstral"]My case on Ausuka is that he voted Volxen then switched over to Sesq when that became a thing then switched back to volxen when that was happening/quote]
this is true, yes, i was hopping between wagons that I was perfectly okay with. (also i'm a she)

As for tw and tor, I hope there's no expectation for me to respond to a cryptic push where I have no idea what the case is actually supposed to be.
No matter what happens, I'll be right there with you.
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Post Post #628 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:08 pm

Post by Ausuka »

In post 627, Ausuka wrote:
In post 603, Dunnstral wrote:My case on Ausuka is that he voted Volxen then switched over to Sesq when that became a thing then switched back to volxen when that was happening
this is true, yes, i was hopping between wagons that I was perfectly okay with. (also i'm a she)

As for tw and tor, I hope there's no expectation for me to respond to a cryptic push where I have no idea what the case is actually supposed to be.
i can't bbcode yay
No matter what happens, I'll be right there with you.
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Post Post #629 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:31 pm

Post by the worst »

neither can I tbh[/center]
and no need to react yet no :shifty:
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #630 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:14 pm

Post by Nauci »

I'd never actually seen town worst before

It's distinctive
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Post Post #631 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:23 pm

Post by Nauci »

I see that NSG is afk or VLA or somesuch

No time to read the game yet but I have her ISO a skim and this is town NSG by a continent or so
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Post Post #632 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:04 pm

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 592, Reundo wrote:
Spoiler: My Case On Keyser Söze
In post 123, volxen wrote:@Sesq, why not just share with us your reasons for scumreading Keyser? You started the game by taking a slight jab at him in , and then in you said that Keyser is “entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way”.
In post 148, volxen wrote:@2.718, are you still scumreading Keyser?
In post 237, volxen wrote: Keyser - I actually like that he started the game by asking about hypoclaiming in , it showed that right off the bat he wanted to strategize on how to potentially make things more difficult for the scumteam. This is only my second game on this site so I don’t have any firsthand experience with hypoclaiming or its effectiveness, but I think it’s not likely that a member of the scumteam would suggest this as a tactic, since it could, theoretically, allow the watcher to reveal who they got a guilty on while making it more difficult for the scumteam to identify the real watcher.

Scum Reads
:

2.718 – I really didn’t like his post-RVS opening in . I feel like he tried to completely misrepresent what Keyser really meant when he said that he didn’t want to talk about hypoclaiming/setup past page 1, and even after Keyser clarified this in (that he wasn’t “forbidding” discussion but rather that he didn’t want to partake in it himself), 2.718 still continued to press the issue in .

I also didn’t like that in 2.718 was quick to side with Reundo in the Keyser vs Reundo argument that was going on at the time. 2.718 made the comment here that “Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I like how he looked at
everyone
”. At the time, Reundo only had two posts, and , in which he mainly focused on attacking Keyser, with only brief references made to Sesq, GameNBurger, and northsidegal in . 2.718’s post made it sound like Reundo was taking a balanced look at “everyone”, when in reality he was primarily just hammering down on Keyser. I feel like this was a very weak reason for 2.718 to jump in so quickly to side with Reundo.
In post 280, volxen wrote:
In post 256, Irrelephant11 wrote:@Volxen in your previous readslist why did you include more nullreads than scum or town reads?
Reundo is someone that I would like to get a read on, but I’ve been having a very difficult time trying to read him. I
REALLY
did
NOT
like the way he started this game in . But I’m not sure if his interactions (and arguments) with Keyser are SvT or TvT (Keyser is still a townread for me). The last time I went through his ISO and reviewed his interactions with Keyser, I ended up just getting really frustrated because I couldn’t get a read on him one way or another. I’m going to review Reundo’s content again, and hopefully I will catch something that I may have missed the first time around.
In post 484, volxen wrote: t like his entrance to the game and the way he attacked Keyser right off the bat, and I think the way he is playing this game is very opportunistic.
First point I was going to make was how volxen was literally obsessed with Keyser as the above quotes show. Even in his scum-read of 2.178 he couldn't help bringing up Keyser and giving yet another HOT TAKE on the whole me verses Keyser debate. This kind of focus is completely unnatural and forced, which could mean one of two things: A)That he was afraid of spewing anyone as town so he thought the best bet was to spew Keyser!town (plausible, but eh) OR B)That he was trying to make his scum-buddy seem as towny as possible, even when it goes way overboard, which is actually more unlikely than A, but becomes increasingly more likely when you take into account that Keyser basically blatantly distanced himself from volxen.
In post 123, volxen wrote:@Sesq, why not just share with us your reasons for scumreading Keyser? You started the game by taking a slight jab at him in , and then in you said that Keyser is “entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way”. You also said in that post that you changed your mind about him, which would suggest you no longer found him scummy, but you kept your vote on him anyways. And then in you are apparently back to scumreading him. So why not just explain why you scumread him – is there really anything useful gained by putting it out there that you scumread him, but then refuse to elaborate any further? And what exactly did you mean when you said that he is “detached” from the state of the game, but in a way that is not indicative of him being scum? Trying to understand your motivations here.
This is a really bad entrance, especially according to Keyser's supposed method of scum-hunting: it was a post about a topic that was well over and done with (which he called out me for), a topic that likely wasn't going to lead to any AI responses at all (something that he later called out Dunn for). There was little reason why Keyser WOULDN'T call out volxen for this type of post, except, of course, if they were scum-buddies, which was the first big ping for a volxen/Keyser pairing, which was why I didn't really have any problem switching my vote over to volxen.

I'm not going to quote it here because it's a little long, but when Keyser responded to Ausuka's readslist he pretty much responded to all of her reads except for volxen and GameNBurger (though tbh he did talk about GameNBurger just a bit earlier), which was again blatant distancing between him and volxen.
In post 187, Keyser Söze wrote: I can see / clearly read Volxen’s posts, but don’t feel like they’ve opened up yet (free flowing posting). Feels too laboured/restricted at the moment.
This read of volxen makes no sense, and almost sounds like a town-read (?) which was why it was a little weird when he jumped onto volxen's wagon later in the day.
In post 266, Keyser Söze wrote:@volxen

Are you saying that those three players are scummy for contributing to the apathy/lurking that festers in this game? Or are you just pissed off for being s/read; being our first wagon?
It would make sense to at least try to look like he was pushing the volxen wagon. Not scummy in and of itself, but it implies he scum-reads volxen a little, which is a bit important later on.
In post 368, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 359, Irrelephant11 wrote:I’ll vote Sesq if that’s the lynch
Hey Irrelephant, I'm gonna go the WIFOM route sorry:
do you think scum-Sesq would have a bit more survival/verve/urgency in them?
This is literally the only post I couldn't parse from scum!Keyser, but at the same time it would look almost a bit too bad if he jumped onto such easy lynchbait.
In post 374, Keyser Söze wrote:@Irrelephant - yeah gonna try and work an alternative wagon as we head into the deadline
This post, however, pretty much nullifies the affect the last post had, because I couldn't get why town!Keyser would want to move onto a new wagon when he didn't necessarily clear volxen or give any indication whatsoever that he was town-reading him.

That's pretty much all I had on volxen/Keyser distancing (or at least what I've bothered to bring up). I was then just basically going to summarize all the anti-town/scummy things he did this game, including but not limited to...

>Basically only responding to my initial case on him with "town could do the same things I'm doing right now!", which is a pretty petty defense, then when I brought up that I wasn't convinced by this he basically hammered down on the concept while later claiming I was focusing too much on him, despite the fact he basically didn't prove any of my points wrong so I had no reason not to shift focus.
>The fact that out of the whole lynch pool D1, the only player on there who didn't criticize Keyser directly was volxen, his own scum-buddy. His only scum-reads were basically people who criticized him and he was far too happy to throw out town-reads to anyone who town-read him, which completely neglects the possibility of buddying and is not town motivated at all.
>Related to the above, pretty much the way he was happy-go-lucky with everyone who town-read him but super aggressive with anyone who didn't. It wasn't a natural shift in tone, and it certainly wasn't town-motivated. Also, generally not accepting of the fact that people could possibly scum-read Keyser.
>Basically the way he did a complete 180 on me when I didn't suspect him anymore.
>Oh, and the super obvious Huntress night-kill. It's such a scum!Keyser night-kill it's not even funny, really.

There's probably some stuff I forgot, and a lot of the case is a bit rushed because I'm not too motivated to case caught scum so some of the points aren't all that polished, but I feel the above was plenty enough evidence here to convict scum!Keyser. Honestly, I was going to push a the worst/Keyser pairing at the start of the day because I thought the worst was pocketing a bit too much for my taste (and reminded me a lot of my first scum game with him) and the progression to voting volxen didn't really feel natural to me. I thought volxen put only town in his scum-reads because it basically read as a desperate attempt to start another counter-wagon and he wouldn't really want to bus Toranaga in that scenario, but I did suspect him a bit for pushing volxen but never actually voting him until it was clear he had to bus, which was a pretty noticeable ping. I thought Ausuka's votes felt opportunistic as well and I didn't find her initial read very organic, so my lynch plan would've basically been {Keyser, the worst, Toranaga, Ausuka} which would've worked out fine in the end anyhow.
- Town and scum usually fixate on my posts. They are very juicy.
- Volxen knew I was town, thus attacked the players who attacked me.
- I secretly like players defending me, so I allowed it, instead of stopping them.
- There were a few player reads of Ausuka that I did not feel there was enough content to discuss.
- My Post 187 was a reason to s/read Volxen. I try to highlight only scum alignment indicative points against a player.
- I joined Volxen’s wagon because it was a wagon I fully supported.
- Basically, Volxen reacted like frustrated scum when their wagon built up.
- Volxen was attacking players for NAI reasons.
- I did not want to join the lead wagon (Sesq) because it looked like the low hanging fruit counter wagon to Volxen.
- Irrelephant11 mentioned he was happy/ready to hammer Sesq so I wanted him to re-evaluate that slot via WIFOM.
- I wanted to support an alternative wagon to Sesq. Volxen was still viable. I stayed on it.
- Volxen was not trying to distance me. I was one easy t/read he could express without raising alarm bells, and then attack players for pressuring me.
- Your original scum case on me was filled with scum tells that are not even scum tells. They are NAI behaviour.
- I encouraged you to look at the whole playerlist instead of tunnelling fluff. You then began to scum hunt, and found scum (pat myself on back).
- My reads were pretty solid on D1. I do know what distancing and buddying are.
- I did not scum read every player that scum read me. I realise town can have bad reads. Or I may have helped towards that read through my playstyle.
- Town players can do a complete 180 read change on another player (if their posts justify it. Your posts justified my 180 on you).
- Huntress NK had nothing to do with me (it appears you are suffering from deep confirmation bias now). That NK was chosen as it was a safe night kill (I.e Huntress was very unlikely to be watched N1).


I would like to discuss your thoughts on Toranaga and Ausuka though.
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Post Post #633 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:08 pm

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 603, Dunnstral wrote:My case on Ausuka is that he voted Volxen then switched over to Sesq when that became a thing then switched back to volxen when that was happening, and I remember their votes being pretty bad at the time
Yes, I do concede it is probably the most significant ‘switch’ in terms of VCA. I will promise to re-read Ausuka.
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Post Post #634 (ISO) » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:34 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 603, Dunnstral wrote:My case on Ausuka is that he voted Volxen then switched over to Sesq when that became a thing then switched back to volxen when that was happening, and I remember their votes being pretty bad at the time
oh yeah btw

this solidifies my dunn townread cause I came to the same conclusion just checking VCA

feels like a very organic d2 tunnel, he just got there faster than us :D

in... 15 hours I'll be completely read up and know where to go hopefully
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Post Post #635 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:39 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 564, Keyser Söze wrote:@Irrelephant - can you share some more thoughts on my town meta (everyone needs another top up again) :giggle:
how did you KNOW I was doing this already? :lol:

Guyssss when you think you've caught obv!scum!Soze... say hello to town Keyser.

I guess he had some weird interactions with volxen? But mostly from volxen's side, and those still read to me as "well this guy's obviously town so it's safe to call him town"
In post 565, the worst wrote:
In post 563, Reundo wrote:But I don't see what the problem is. Like, do you still think Keyser's town?
yeah tbh he's just pushing odd angles
qft
In post 581, Flicker wrote:Nauci replaces Sesq, effective immediately.
NAUCI HI :D :D :D
In post 586, Nauci wrote:Oh man I'm kinda bummed I didn't roll scum w/ tw and/or irrelephant
ikr

I wonder if you and tw plan this post when you roll scum with tw
nah, too tinfoil-y. Nauci is prolly safe, guys! just a gut
In post 587, the worst wrote:
THIS DOESNT LOOK LIKE TOWN NAUCI
lol
In post 589, Nauci wrote:VOTE: Irrelephant11 on principle/policy. Personal policy. (´・ω・`)
lollllllllll
In post 593, Eragon wrote:{Irrelephant, The worst, Keyser}
{toranaga, nauci}
{Ausuka, NSG}
{dunnstral, Reundo}


right now Im not very confident on the reads themselves, because I haven't had ISO dive time yet.
Basically this is just the strength of my reads, so the top bracket is my strongest town reads(but not, like, confirmed town, or "IMO never ever flips scum town")
second is town reads, but could sort of go either way
Ausuka and NSG are basically null
And dunn and Reundo are both small scum reads, but not very confident in them
These are the reads I
want
, but not the reads I deserve
which is my trolly way of saying I largely agree with this readslist but feel like it's too obvious/easy to be correct (or it's mostly "correct" but Eragon is scum?)
In post 631, Nauci wrote:I see that NSG is afk or VLA or somesuch

No time to read the game yet but I have her ISO a skim and this is town NSG by a continent or so
ugh fine
UNVOTE:
Way to ruin the fun guys, every time I place a bad vote for a reaction from that player someone else intercepts

VOTE: Dunnstral
this one is srs
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Post Post #636 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:47 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Anyone around?
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Post Post #637 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:43 am

Post by Ausuka »

northsidegal
Nauci
Ausuka

Toranaga
Eragon
Keyser Söze
the worst
Irrelephant11

Dunnstral
Reundo


this is my starting point for today.

{Keyser, nsg} are less scummy than the others I think. w/ {Tor, tw} I might be biased but like Tor seems to be divining his reads from ouija board VCA and tw has some mysterious scummy tell that for some reason he only picked up after a wagon pooped up on me. Eragon slot has been pretty underwhelming and Dunn has been scummy.
No matter what happens, I'll be right there with you.
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Post Post #638 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:49 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

I would love more info on how you decided to cross names out
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Post Post #639 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:52 am

Post by Ausuka »

In post 638, Irrelephant11 wrote:I would love more info on how you decided to cross names out
me is obvious

you seem town and interested in gamesolving.

reundo's push to lynch volxen d1 over sesq was town-motivated and I think he's really scumhunting now too.

sesq slot probably isn't scum anymore? like i feel like unless there was bus-heaviness which we'll find out later, scum were just content with the Sesq lynch. i also don't think scum Nauci comes into the game as scum pushing for tw and nsg clears?
No matter what happens, I'll be right there with you.
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Post Post #640 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:04 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 477, Irrelephant11 wrote:I'm curious if scum plan is "hey you claim TPR but we'll go tunnel on you and make sure you're still the lynch until deadline even though you're the lynch anyway"

which is what the plan would be if any of tw/keyser/reundo(/maybe ausuka) are scum with volxen. It's not a bad plan but idk how likely it is scum thinks of it/is around to pull it off
this was affecting my thinking still but then I checked and scum don't have daychat (yeah yeah "townslip" "no, fake townslip" it's not a slip it's just the truth) so there was likely never an actual plan.
short version is I was townreading tw mostly for his tunnel on volxen even post-claim but that doesn't really work anymore because now it looks like unplanned bussing
Also Keyser encouraged a cc at one point which is bad but I also wasn't sure for a minute if it would be bad so I think I forgive him for it?
In post 519, Eragon wrote:
In post 500, the worst wrote::ok_hand:
red flip d1 feels good man

drunk ducky gonna slep now gngn
I think this is actually TMI, because he was already like “red flip Day 1 feels good”

I mean, town never KNOWS that the person is scum unless a TI has a guilty, but TW acted like he KNEW volxen was scum, not HOPING that volxen was scum and not actually watcher.
\
I also thought it was a little TMI
In post 522, Ausuka wrote:I don't think volxen would cram both of his scumbuddies in there for no reason, I don't think GNB was in there for no reason, and honestly I think you might be getting carried away with this idea?

I don't think it's impossible for TW to say that as town at all? He could just be acting confident. Honestly I kind of townread duckling's approach to volxen d1.
It's TW's PARTNER
In post 535, Toranaga wrote:
In post 531, Sesq wrote:
replacing out


i dont like mafia
aww you poor thing

I think this is town, guys.
Don't understand this
In post 542, Toranaga wrote:in before "HE IS TW'S PARTNUR"
:o It's TW'S PARTNER
In post 544, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 542, Toranaga wrote:in before "HE IS TW'S PARTNUR"
Nah, TW is not on my scumdar so far.
:o :o It's TW'S PARTNER
In post 572, the worst wrote:
In post 570, Reundo wrote:
In post 565, the worst wrote:
In post 563, Reundo wrote:But I don't see what the problem is. Like, do you still think Keyser's town?
yeah tbh he's just pushing odd angles
for real this time?? :P
In post 568, the worst wrote:slot was obvtown
Oh, do you mean before Keyser actually basically claimed scum?
I might have missed something in that case?
In post 576, the worst wrote:I might need my hand held through it a little Reundo, I'm not sure I see it. :(
Actually wow why is tw being so "wellllllllllllll I don't seeeeeeee a reason to scumread Keyser but if you insissssssssssssst then mayyyyyyyyybe I'll see it if your case is rly gud"

Why is it that I am watcher and you're all backup
goons
for tw
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Post Post #641 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:04 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Let's inspect D1 for this tw/keyser tinfoil theory
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Post Post #642 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:28 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Eh it was fun but I don't think it's both of them
Keyser's interactions with volxen
are
pretty scummy on re-read. I can't get over how Keyser defended Sesq, though (ultimately resulting in volxen's lynch, though not directly). Unless both of them are scum?
tw looks bad for his "yes please do scumcase Keyser and hold my hand through it" as well as TMI'ing volxen's flip, but by EOD it did seem pretty obvious we'd caught scum - I was gonna hammer, I felt sure enough - so this might be nothing. GNB was pretty scummy, though.

The reason I don't think it's both is mainly how GNB/Keyser/volxen would have had to have a LOT of scum theater when it would be much easier/townier looking to keep each other at a more average distance. Maybe their pre-game plan was to have Keyser ask about hypoclaiming, let GNB explain (incorrectly), and then move forward together with some towncred, but if it was planned it was executed really terribly, so I doubt it was planned

I don't have any strong scumreads but I have enough townreads and enough confidence that we can keep up yesterday's momentum that I'm not worried about it yet
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Post Post #643 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:30 am

Post by Flicker »

Votecount 2.04

Dunnstral (3)
- Ausuka , Keyser Söze , Irrelephant11
Ausuka (3)
- Dunnstral , Toranaga , the worst
Irrelephant11 (1)
- Nauci
Keyser Söze (1)
- Reundo

Not voting: Eragon, northsidegal

The deadline for Day 2 is 2:17 pm CT on Thursday, September 20, in (expired on 2018-09-20 15:17:24).

Mod notes
  • Just some reminders:
    - With 10 people alive, it would take 6 votes to guarantee a lynch and (possibly) end the day early.
    - If the day were to end now, Dunnstral would be lynched.
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Keyser Söze
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Post Post #644 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:10 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

TW and I are not the two remaining mafia goons.

@the worst - can you confirm.
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Irrelephant11
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Post Post #645 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:14 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

lol it's true
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Post Post #646 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:20 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

I have proven to myself I can't really read tw super well?
So I'll just sheep majority of townreads for him
Prolly town
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Keyser Söze
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Post Post #647 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:25 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

Came into D2 thinking Toro-Dunn (but they’re both united over scum-Ausuka, who in turn doesn’t town read them! how perfect :twisted: ) so this is going to be an interesting day. So I’m now sat here with my popcorn, waiting to see the uncensored interactions between those players (so far they’ve talked about eachother, but not engaged one another).
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Post Post #648 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:53 am

Post by Toranaga »

In post 644, Keyser Söze wrote:TW and I are not the two remaining mafia goons.

@the worst - can you confirm.
I can confirm too

...

oh wait
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Post Post #649 (ISO) » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:54 am

Post by Toranaga »

In post 647, Keyser Söze wrote:Came into D2 thinking Toro-Dunn (but they’re both united over scum-Ausuka, who in turn doesn’t town read them! how perfect :twisted: ) so this is going to be an interesting day. So I’m now sat here with my popcorn, waiting to see the uncensored interactions between those players (so far they’ve talked about eachother, but not engaged one another).
maybe tora but I think dunn is town mate
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