What is truly Bastard - and what is not?

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Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #0  (isolation #0)  » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:36 am

Bastard things- unexpected things that can screw up the gameplay, betray trust(unforseeable mod lies), cause horrible anti-good play results(unannounced game-ending Jester, Cult...)
where is the line?
Would you say that a Godfather is Bastard?
A Jester when its presence is known?
Is Cult bastard(I'd say YES)?
Mod lies in the Role PM?
Is the lack of role or alignment randomization bastard, especially with flavor?
A reflexive Bulletproof Vigilante that is self-aligned as Serial Killer type, in the same game as a Town Vigilante?

What does, in your eyes, meet the threshold of warning the players that there might be weird roles about(bastard games need normally to be announced as such)?
And which one of these do you not want to see in any game you play, ever; and which ones would you be ok with?

Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #16  (isolation #1)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:47 pm

In post 15, 2 718281828459 wrote:Actually, why not just use the existing category "not Normal"? VOTE: Allow Cult-like factions in team games as long as it is announced before the game starts that it exists.

thats already allowed.

Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #34  (isolation #2)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:37 pm

In post 32, 2 718281828459 wrote:Having there be a chance of an alignment change is just another layer of uncertainty just like with any complication.

It is not just another layer of uncertainity.
It is a layer that harms the dayplay of town like none other. Because it makes town reads from earlier days potentially useless - a horrible thing for scumhunting. In any game where you can assume there might be midgame alignment changes the reads will suffer as a result.
But then what if you just have a closed game with lots of Normal roles but it is near impossible to figure out and scum might think it is MyLo with a Doctor-proof kill and play accordingly only to get jailed.
Here is a hint: Usually people massclaim before or at MYLO. If scum is so dumb and quickhammers without knowing the setup and get jailed then they deserve this. To quickhammer in MYLO, there need to be two stray votes from town...

Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #36  (isolation #3)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:26 pm

In post 35, 2 718281828459 wrote:And no one even begins to try to answer my question about delayed alignments.

Games with known alignment changes are about finding changes in behavior. Someone who is always relaxed suddenly becomes very tense => lynch them. Someone who played moderately scummy all game but consistently => probably town or else started out in the cult. Lynch if scummy enough, else leave intact. Someone who has played pro-town all game and suddenly claims real-life events have messed up their play => be suspicious (they could be lying about the real-life events) especially if the new play looks very scummy.
We already have replacements. What if (in a non-cult game) someone who was a really good scum player no one ever would suspect needs replacement, and the replacement is horrible at playing scum and gets lynched that very day?

For delayed alignments see below.
But basically, what you described is part the problem. The margin of error becomes much wider. Sure, sudden and extreme changes overnight will be seen, just like scumslips. But any player worth it will be careful to avoid that. And with minor changes in behaviour, the margin of error becomes extreme because that can be reasoned on daily mood, the state of the game which inconveniently changes with every night, just like alignments - and then there is the starting cult who needs to be found as well, with other methods. The next problem with games with alignment changes is that they are notoriously difficult to balance, even by experts, and that is another reason why those reside in the bastard category.
In post 21, 2 718281828459 wrote:Another question about alignment changes.
What about if you have "no alignment" until you are given an alignment later? Examples:
1. In a multiball game, you are told that you will be drafted to a random scum team, starting night 2.
2. Your role is "uncertain": if the Mafia attack you in the first three nights, you become a Mafia. If that does not happen then you become locked-in town.
3. Divide the players into 4 groups: Red, Green, Blue, and Neutral. The first three colors each have a factional attack kills members of a specific faction (Red can kill Green, Green can kill Blue, Blue can kill Red), and irreversibly recruits a Neutral. (If a Neutral dies by lynch, then that player simply loses.)

In any of these cases, you would know that it is happening, and until you get drafted you receive no alignment.

(3 is specific because I might actually want to run that some time.)

1. The problem with this is not so much the alignment change from scum to specific scum but the fact that there is no team at all the first two days(searching teams becomes a nightmare) and that with uneven numbers, you have to gimp one scumteam to possibly 1(or 2 depending on the game) without the fault of the scum who remains(as they couldn't even try to help their teammate). If its fully random then it is even more atrocious, e.g. 4v2 scum. My advice: Don't run this.
2. That's basically a cultafia with certain restrictions on conversion and kills. Nothing new. Although at least the recruitment stops at some point.
3. That's not a game of Mafia. It belongs into Mish Mash/LSG. And I would strongly advise against running it.

Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #41  (isolation #4)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:15 am

In post 40, 2 718281828459 wrote:OK, clearly my examples of delayed alignments were awful.

About the one where you got recruited if attacked in the first three days, that role was only going to be given to 1-2 players, with the rest being locked-in town or locked-in scum. Although I guess then the game has other problems with it depending heavily on the randomness of hitting one of those targets. But even then, that is simply a badly-designed game, which is not what we are talking about.

Also, in all "delayed alignment" games that I was considering, you have a temporary goal of surviving. So, if you get lynched before you receive an alignment, you just plain lose. People may read your lack of effort as scummy and lynch you, and if you claim, they might be suspicious of you if you do get drafted as scum.

Something that might be more balanced is this: you join the same team as the day-1 lynch victim, and you get a vanilla role. (That does not mean the day-1 lynch is useless -- hitting scum can give information and hitting town might destroy a useful PR.)
EDIT: But let's not get into the specifics of one kind of delayed-alignment setup.

All delayed alignment games are per definition imbalanced or at least extremely swingy, and very likely unfun. And often not mafia games at all.
I have no problems to put these firmly in the bastard category, because you can practically not make a good game out of these. Show me one balanced, fun example of a delayed aligment game and we can talk about this. Until then...

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