Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!


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Post Post #750 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:48 pm

Post by northsidegal »

i mean i made it clear later that i never voted GNB because nothing of what he said ever actually seemed scummy to me - it was just something that didn't make sense to me. is it unreasonable to try to elicit more from a statement that you don't think makes sense? i don't think so - even if i don't end up scumread that person, it at least gets the game moving.
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Post Post #751 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:48 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 748, northsidegal wrote:
In post 747, Toranaga wrote:but in a post that's overrall towny and from a perspective that NSG has no reason to believe it comes from scum.
-shrug-

it sounds like we just disagree on whether or not that's actually towny. that's to say nothing of my current read on tw or even what my read on GNB was - just whether or not GNB's original posts were town indicative or not.
we do disagree, yeah. if it's scummy or not from you to think that I'll only know when you flip.

you're townreading TW yes?
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Post Post #752 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:51 pm

Post by Toranaga »

oh god you're all posting walls again and it's only page 3

I can't read this, it's too boring

ok I'mma skim stuff and figure out where I'm leaning

NSG, why do you think dunn is scum and why are you townreading ausuka?
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Post Post #753 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:52 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 749, Toranaga wrote:GNB just said that, in last game when he was town, everyone started just townreading him on effort and that made things harder for him in that game. so naturally he doesn't want the same thing to repeat itself and end up in a similar situation. why is that fake? and why would he fake it? he is already being pretty LAMIST-y without saying he doesn't want a townread, so adding this part and referring to a game in which the same thing probably did happen just doesn't read at all like something he is faking, and IDK why that's how you're reading into this.
where did he say that it made things harder for him? as far as i understood it, it was just something that bothered him, and something that he didn't think would hold true for anything. which raises the question (at least, in my mind), if someone comes to a correct conclusion but through an incorrect method, should you really bother making a huge deal about it?

obviously if someone uses that method to townread someone else that'd be something to raise alarm about if you don't think the method is valid. however, you know your own alignment (presumably town), and so the reason for someone townreading you doesn't really matter much as long as they're right (and as long as you don't think the reason that this hypothetical person has come up with is scum-indicative in itself, if that makes sense).

i think you may have misinterpreted my use of the word "fake". i didn't use it to imply that he was
lying
or misrepresenting the situation in some other game - not at all. i used it in terms of describing his thought process, which didn't make sense to me as actually coming from town. i have no doubts that what he said about getting townread in that other game was actually true.
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Post Post #754 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:54 pm

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In post 22, GameNBurger wrote:Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town

Anyways let that be a lesson to never do gametheory math late at night because youre bound to make idioitic mistakes, theres still a not great part of the stupidly simple model i used that doesn't account for the fact that T contains M in it, I should have broken it into P=t+M for more generalized use to make the death equation a bit easier to see the relationships
this

also... I was in that game. I know why he was bothered. basically, no one liked much of what GNB said but it was so many words it was hard to think it ever came from scum. I think that annoyed him cause people started to clear him without interacting with his posts in any meaningful way.
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Post Post #755 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 751, Toranaga wrote:you're townreading TW yes?
-shrug-

i'm not scumreading him at the moment, and like i said i would imagine that if he were scum who bussed volxen he would've gone for more scum theater, which i don't recall (speaking purely from memory)
In post 752, Toranaga wrote:NSG, why do you think dunn is scum and why are you townreading ausuka?
i think dunnstral's day one could easily be seen in the context of being partnered with volxen

i think he has yet to do anything actually town-indicative

i think he's disengaged in a way that may be more scum-indicative

and, on more specific levels:

i think this post is scum indicative
In post 385, Dunnstral wrote:tinfoil theory: Eragon is scum and his partner(s) felt the need to welcome him in thread to try to seem like they're not talking in pt

Not a serious theory jsut something to consider I guess

and i still think that he was being entirely unreasonable when it came to representing what i was actually trying to say regarding Kop. i think town dunnstral is normally pretty reasonable, so the lack of that raises alarm for me.
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Post Post #756 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:56 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 754, Toranaga wrote:also... I was in that game. I know why he was bothered. basically, no one liked much of what GNB said but it was so many words it was hard to think it ever came from scum. I think that annoyed him cause people started to clear him without interacting with his posts in any meaningful way.
getting townread and people ignoring your posts are two entirely different issues

if your posts getting ignored is what upsets you then it makes sense to make comments regarding that. getting townread for reasons you believe are invalid is entirely unrelated to that subject matter.
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Post Post #757 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:57 pm

Post by northsidegal »

if there's somewhere specific you want to end up with in this debate then i would be interested to hear it

barring that i don't think it's actually particularly productive to continue this discussion.
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Post Post #758 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 756, northsidegal wrote:
In post 754, Toranaga wrote:also... I was in that game. I know why he was bothered. basically, no one liked much of what GNB said but it was so many words it was hard to think it ever came from scum. I think that annoyed him cause people started to clear him without interacting with his posts in any meaningful way.
getting townread and people ignoring your posts are two entirely different issues

if your posts getting ignored is what upsets you then it makes sense to make comments regarding that. getting townread for reasons you believe are invalid is entirely unrelated to that subject matter.
those things are definitely correlated. if GNB wasn't being townread on effort, or if he was but his posts were challenging and made people interact with him, he wouldn't be ignored.

and yeah if you wanna drop the discussion, sure let's drop it. I see reasoning behind the dunn scumread and he is something I've scumread for a good part of d1. I think dunn is town cause I think he is right about ausuka being scum though, and the way he is laying out the scumread feels natural and not things wolves do for distance.
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Post Post #759 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:06 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 79, Irrelephant11 wrote:No my vote was RVS but I can't decide how to feel about his one post being a response to Burger's game theory stuff. He didn't participate in RVS, or correct Burger on the definition of hypoclaiming, or suggest anything was AI

It's the lack of content from a player that has shown up that I find interesting
that's re: dunnstrall and good reasons to scumread him early on
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Post Post #760 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:14 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 109, Ausuka wrote:I don't really have scumreads and idk what to say :(

Irre why is Sesq scum?
awkward...
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Post Post #761 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:16 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: northsidegal
I guess I'm about null here? Like, there's scumhunting in her ISO, but I guess something feels off about it. It's like she's pursuing GNB but she never really, like, follows up past pressing on one specific point and then doing the same thing to Irrelephant? Maybe this is just like playstyle and I'm reading too much into it but I feel like town having a seemingly fairly strong scumread there is likely to, like, try and drive a wagon early there and see how people react to that?

Spoiler: Sesq
their posts are a rollercoaster ride to the point where if they flipped red I'd be actually impressed with the acting. also I don't really see the scum motivation exactly for saying "oh i tr you nope jk i scumread you"- it's so convoluted that I think the simplest explanation is that they're just town tbh.

Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)
First thought is that I like - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in ; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

Spoiler: Keyser Söze
looks to be genuinely scumhunting? I guess I could see how he's being defensive but I don't think it's scummy to be defensive tbh. Also I kinda get where he's coming from w/ Reundo. I think he's wrong about 2.718 but like when somebody comes into the thread like that with a case you don't understand at all it's understandable that you would vote for that person.

Spoiler: volxen
not an incredible lot to say - his contributions are kind of active lurking-ish?

Spoiler: GameNBurger
I don't feel qualified to judge his mathy plan because I don't really understand a word of it :oops: I guess I kinda like his "don't townread me for mathing" thing; I agree with this- I think scum very much like to hide behind mechanics generally- and it makes sense that if something annoys him he wouldn't want it in the game, even if it's helpful to him personally.

Spoiler: Irrelephant11
I think I kinda understand where his tr on nsg is coming from in that she was being gamesolvy? In general I find his posts as, uh, "adequate" more than anything else. I don't exactly scumread his approach but it's also not that towny and I don't get why he's fixated on Dunnstral specifically; what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?

Spoiler: Reundo
I kinda dislike his entrance. Like, with Sesq and Keyser, I can see both sides - I don't think keyser's opening was LAMIST but I can totally see how somebody could see it that way. I almost feel like he's trying to push Keyser? but holding back for some reason. I don't see how it's really supposed to be scum-indicative for someone to dislike their posts being portrayed as lamist. The whole scum daychat thing appears to be kinda irrelevant? Like, I don't see the argument that Keyser as scum for some reason uses scum daychat as an example of something NAI whereas town!Keyser acknowledges it's NAI and moves on. What could the scum motivation ever be for lying in such an insignificant way? I also don't get why it's scummy to say "this is NAI" when someone pushes you for things you think are NAI. I also don't see how it's scum motivated to stop talking about his sr on Sesq as scum; I don't think scum would really mind repeating the same thing over and over at all? And why does scum!keyser pretend to forget about hypoclaiming? Like I might just be being stupid but I don't understand this at all.


@gamenburger: you mentioned keyser was being a bit stiff about sesq. can you like elaborate on if that actually makes you scumread him?

@volxen: why do you think scum!GNB argues that people will tr him for mechanics when he doesn't actually believe that?
oh well

this is very hedgy but I do like some of it

I'll have to ISO dunn now
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Post Post #762 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:03 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 742, Toranaga wrote:
In post 739, the worst wrote:
In post 731, Eragon wrote:Quack Quack tora QUACK quack quack quality Ausuka QuAcK NSG!

Quack translator Quack Worst Quackity?
I'm town, so is Tora AND also most likely Ausuka & hOpEfUlLy NSG!
I know you were translating from quackspeak but... do you townread anything ausuka did this game? I'm having a hard time ever getting out of this read if it's a tunnel so I'm gonna need a ton of help if you're leaning any other way.
I'm starting to swing the other way
she can case and post a bit as scum but nowhere near as much as town and it comes across as a lot less fluid/comfortable when it's coming from scum!suka

her "I'm town and you fucks should know it" reaction and recent posting comes from town her before scum her, I was just starting to panic a little due to some volxen associatives (her=>him not the other way round)

I can pretty easily put it down to bad luck on d1. she's probably fine.

there's a few things from her d1 which I think are slightly town indicative but my townread is more a current trending thing
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #763 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:05 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 746, northsidegal wrote:
In post 740, the worst wrote:Nsg nsg nsg what did you think of Ausuka's vca and interactions with volxen? but also her posting?
from day one? don't really remember it much, honestly.
I didn't til I dove into it either but I think there's an interesting conversation there in retrospect. want me to grab some quotes?
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #764 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:11 pm

Post by the worst »

fyi when I read ausuka's ISO before reading this thread I was like "aw crap my cuz rolled scum against me" but in real time/context she came across a lot townier

post volxen flip I actually think it's up/down/up, her earlier posting is towny, it feels like there ~could~ be some partner interactions, her current posting is back to being pretty much fine.

Idk man I've got stronger reads but we may as well play this mountainousesque so I'mma lynch up my read list

Dunn is a better one today I think
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #765 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:12 pm

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also realising this setup is interesting from an NKA POV

it actually means the finale is more likely to consist of the towniest players who are actually town.

like scum are forced to NK counter intuitively
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #766 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Post by Ausuka »

In post 729, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 715, Ausuka wrote:Keyser just likes sheeping confident people I guess. Still think he's town.
My bad, I honestly just wanted the ammunition from your flip to gain clarity with my scum read of Toranaga (if that makes sense). I know this sounds anti-town, but it made sense in my head when I voted you.
But if he's scum can't you like

lynch him

instead of lynching somebody else to prove a point who you apparently don't really scumread
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Post Post #767 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:00 pm

Post by Ausuka »

In post 730, northsidegal wrote:i think maybe i townread ausuka too quickly, though i'm not sure (again, entirely from memory).
why say this and how do you read me now?
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Post Post #768 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:02 pm

Post by Ausuka »

In post 740, the worst wrote:what did you think of Ausuka's vca
did i do vca? i'm like 99% sure i didn't?
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Post Post #769 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:10 pm

Post by Ausuka »

In post 761, Toranaga wrote:
In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: northsidegal
I guess I'm about null here? Like, there's scumhunting in her ISO, but I guess something feels off about it. It's like she's pursuing GNB but she never really, like, follows up past pressing on one specific point and then doing the same thing to Irrelephant? Maybe this is just like playstyle and I'm reading too much into it but I feel like town having a seemingly fairly strong scumread there is likely to, like, try and drive a wagon early there and see how people react to that?

Spoiler: Sesq
their posts are a rollercoaster ride to the point where if they flipped red I'd be actually impressed with the acting. also I don't really see the scum motivation exactly for saying "oh i tr you nope jk i scumread you"- it's so convoluted that I think the simplest explanation is that they're just town tbh.

Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)
First thought is that I like - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in ; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

Spoiler: Keyser Söze
looks to be genuinely scumhunting? I guess I could see how he's being defensive but I don't think it's scummy to be defensive tbh. Also I kinda get where he's coming from w/ Reundo. I think he's wrong about 2.718 but like when somebody comes into the thread like that with a case you don't understand at all it's understandable that you would vote for that person.

Spoiler: volxen
not an incredible lot to say - his contributions are kind of active lurking-ish?

Spoiler: GameNBurger
I don't feel qualified to judge his mathy plan because I don't really understand a word of it :oops: I guess I kinda like his "don't townread me for mathing" thing; I agree with this- I think scum very much like to hide behind mechanics generally- and it makes sense that if something annoys him he wouldn't want it in the game, even if it's helpful to him personally.

Spoiler: Irrelephant11
I think I kinda understand where his tr on nsg is coming from in that she was being gamesolvy? In general I find his posts as, uh, "adequate" more than anything else. I don't exactly scumread his approach but it's also not that towny and I don't get why he's fixated on Dunnstral specifically; what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?

Spoiler: Reundo
I kinda dislike his entrance. Like, with Sesq and Keyser, I can see both sides - I don't think keyser's opening was LAMIST but I can totally see how somebody could see it that way. I almost feel like he's trying to push Keyser? but holding back for some reason. I don't see how it's really supposed to be scum-indicative for someone to dislike their posts being portrayed as lamist. The whole scum daychat thing appears to be kinda irrelevant? Like, I don't see the argument that Keyser as scum for some reason uses scum daychat as an example of something NAI whereas town!Keyser acknowledges it's NAI and moves on. What could the scum motivation ever be for lying in such an insignificant way? I also don't get why it's scummy to say "this is NAI" when someone pushes you for things you think are NAI. I also don't see how it's scum motivated to stop talking about his sr on Sesq as scum; I don't think scum would really mind repeating the same thing over and over at all? And why does scum!keyser pretend to forget about hypoclaiming? Like I might just be being stupid but I don't understand this at all.


@gamenburger: you mentioned keyser was being a bit stiff about sesq. can you like elaborate on if that actually makes you scumread him?

@volxen: why do you think scum!GNB argues that people will tr him for mechanics when he doesn't actually believe that?
oh well

this is very hedgy but I do like some of it

I'll have to ISO dunn now
haven't you already read this post if you scumread me? why do you change your mind about it now when you said it was scummy in (you said you'll let someone else case it because it's long complicated posting, implying that it's scummy)
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Post Post #770 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:11 pm

Post by Ausuka »

duckling why do you townread toranga so much?
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Post Post #771 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:20 pm

Post by Toranaga »

I read very little dear
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Post Post #772 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:22 pm

Post by Ausuka »

you read very little and were willing to be lynched if your scumread from when you had read very little was wrong?
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Post Post #773 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:26 pm

Post by Toranaga »

yeah sure, why not?

did you notice when I voted volxen? you're scumreading me when you did read the game which is probably much worse
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Post Post #774 (ISO) » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:27 pm

Post by Toranaga »

also that big list post isn't even that good

I'll sheep duck's read on you, is that good?
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