Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

[Shoshin]

Radiant, Irrelephant, and Creature are town.

[Shoshin]

then u better lynch me right fucking now my guy cause ur scummy af

How's he scummy?

[Shoshin]

i'm like obvtown

i would instalynch her if she said otherwise tbh

You're doing something in this post that makes me question my early townread

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Nosferatu

[Shoshin]

I thought I was mafia when I saw my role PM. Sad I'm not.

Pretty sure Kokichi's town, too.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gammagooey

[Shoshin]

Why Reck, Irrelephant?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Skitter

[Shoshin]

Also, I disagree with NSG that Nos feels town (what's "natural" about calling RC scummy and then doubling down with shitposting?), and I don't see where Gamma got the idea that Nos scumread RC for spamposting nor do I see how his logic makes any sense?

[Shoshin]

Gamma's town, though. I don't think scum would read into Nos the way he did.

[Shoshin]

I was actually looking at "how" he said it too. I suggest you look at some of his scum games to clear up your townread. I don't scumread him, but I'd like you to keep an open mind about it because I don't think he's anything close to town yet and I don't want him getting complacent about the game and zoning out.

[Shoshin]

Can you explain what felt "natural"?

[Shoshin]

I figured it was the tone, just checking. His tone feels similar as both alignments.

Skitter's entrance feels underwhelming compared to the Presidents game, plus she's missing her trademark town pushiness & emotional investment.

[Shoshin]

Like, Skitter asks a bunch of questions but there's no direction or push underlying the post. It's very different from her play as town.

[Shoshin]

Hey my friend, vote Skitter!

[Shoshin]

Nos trying to irritate that type of player early just seems dumb to do as scum.

Why would that be dumb? And why are you assuming RC's town?

If anything, irritating town RC to the point of self-destruction is pro-scum.

[Shoshin]

Meh, that's not my experience of RC. If I were scum, I'd want to irritate RC in almost all circumstances. He plays much worse when irritated.

[Shoshin]

Anyway, vote Skitter? We need to lynch her.

[Shoshin]

Hey RC, what's the difference between town NSG and scum NSG?

[Shoshin]

But you're super good with words, RC, try to make them please? Also, can you point to a specific post that pings you? I need help learning to read her.

[Shoshin]

Creature's town. I will never lynch him and I will death tunnel anyone who tries. I do not want him self-destructing this game so please do not start wagoning that player, even suggesting he's scummy is bad for this game.

[Shoshin]

I'll say it about you if you don't scumread me for it.

[Shoshin]

And if you teach me to read NSG, of course.

[Shoshin]

I wouldn't believe you actually scumread me, so no, I'd just ignore it.

If everyone was town, it'd be like playing Survivor. Pretty sure you'd lose lol...

[Shoshin]

Can we have an ongoing PM discussing how we read players as a general matter, not specific to any game? I feel like that should be a thing.

[Shoshin]

I think you'd self-destruct at some point lol, no offense.

[Shoshin]

I don't think it's against the spirit of the game to discuss past games with players you enjoy discussing the game with. Like, if we discussed Labyrinth and I told you I had a really good way to read Wisdom or Math or whatever and we exchanged ideas about that, what's the problem? I get that it's bad to talk about ongoing games but talking about past ones should be encouraged imo.

[Shoshin]

also, strange. so am I just too good as town to scumread you?

I think you have enough familiarity to know I'll make myself obvious town long before I ever get mislynched.

[Shoshin]

I don't think the line should be "don't discuss anyone you're in a game with." Like, let's say I'm in two games with NSG. One of them ends. Can I then discuss my thoughts on reading NSG with other players in the endgame? Or do I have to wait until I finish the other game? The line should be not to discuss ongoing games or behaviors in ongoing with anyone. But past games or general tendencies based on past games? Why not? Just seems like an unworkable and absurd line to draw. But whatever, let's stop discussing this here.

[Shoshin]

I don't care if you misread me now as long as you correctly read me when it matters.

[Shoshin]

I also don't think you've seen enough of how I play as scum to have a scumread that rises beyond mere speculation or irrational paranoia.

[Shoshin]

<absence of reasons that I should read you as town> is a reason to scumread you though.

Not really. Not unless everyone else is townier.

[Shoshin]

RC's town, 98% likely, almost beyond reasonable doubt.

I agree that Pork could be scum.

[Shoshin]

Why is Gamma a scumlean, Irrelephant?

[Shoshin]

Hey Skitter, what's your read on Gamma?

[Shoshin]

Because it looks towny to defend Nos and he gets to pocket Nos a little too
Then when he was pressured about it he basically said "I did say it was dumb so just kinda stop asking me about it pls"

What looks towny about defending Nos? I don't get that at all.

[Shoshin]

It's a curious juxtaposition, for sure.

Gamma, what's your read on Creature?

[Shoshin]

Creature is town beyond reasonable doubt. Take a look at 23 (questioning a townread on himself isn't how scum Creature would react), 35 (progressing naturally from the confusion in 23), 71 (exhibiting a conversational tone, lots of ease, no awkwardness, not at all like scum Creature), 73 (posing an excellent question that probably wouldn't occur to scum Creature at this point in the game), and 77 (expressing conviction in early vote, very unlike scum Creature). If Creature were scum, in contrast, he'd likely have expressed an early townread with a tone of awkwardness while acting with no conviction about anything and exhibiting nothing close to any sort of progression in his thinking.

@Gamma - how is any of this on the "scummy side of null"?

[Shoshin]

Gamma, you're vastly overestimating Creature's abilities as scum... what's the basis for that?

[Shoshin]

Nos, what's your read on me?

[Shoshin]

Why not? I have a lot of posts/content to gather a read from...

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Varsoon

[Shoshin]

I think Gacha should be me, but if not me, then it should be Radiant. It should not be Kokichi, and it definitely shouldn't be Reck who isn't even reading the game.

[Shoshin]

Hey Skitter, join me on Varsoon!

[Shoshin]

Because he's scum? And because you think I'm town so why not sheep me? Are you townreading the slot?

[Shoshin]

Sheeping me is a great idea!

[Shoshin]

varsoon is town

Why?

[Shoshin]

Varsoon's scum because he thinks that Kokichi's faking a townslip when the natural interpretation of Kokichi's beahvior is that he's just commenting on the color, which isn't indicative either way. Varsoon's logic comes from the scum perspective of someone who himself wanted to fake a townslip by commenting on the red color, then saw that someone else already commented on the red color, and so interpreted that behavior as scummy because it was something he himself wanted to do as scum. No townie would ever interpret Kokichi's behavior as a "scummy fake townslip," it just doesn't make any sense unless Varsoon himself is scum who had that instinct himself.

The Reck townread is crap, too.

[Shoshin]

And calling me gullible betrays an informed perspective or an attempt to discredit me... there's no way a townie thinks I'm "gullible" at this stage in the game, just doesn't make any sense.

[Shoshin]

This is very simple. Varsoon is scum because town don't scumread players for doing the same thing they themselves are doing. Town don't scumread players for reacting to something the same way they reacted to it. They just don't.

But when scum "scumhunt," they sometimes suspect players for doing the same things they are doing, or for reacting the same way they did, because the scum believe their own behaviors are scummy and thus tend to see anyone who acts the same way as scummy. I know this is a scum-tell because I've seen scum do it over and over and just caught scum for doing this in a recent game.

In short, I don't see how a townie calls Kokichi scum for commenting on the red color when they themselves reacted exactly the same. Like, I had the same thought ("dam, I got a scum PM, oh wait, I'm town? awesome!") and my immediate instinct when I saw Kokichi say that was to think maybe town and in no universe would I ever have scumread him for that. It just doesn't make sense for a townie to think that way.

I think that's enough to lynch him. So, please, more votes on Varsoon!

[Shoshin]

Yes, those two things are also scummy. But I was clarifying this logic because SirCake seemed lost when it's actually pretty straightforward.

I think all are equally strong reasons to lynch him.

[Shoshin]

I'd also add poe to the list of reasons to lynch Varsoon.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin list your townreads for me please.

You, Creature, Irrelephant, Gamma, SirCake, and Kokichi are varying degrees of town. Most solid on you & Creature. Not going to say why on you yet because I think I have a really good tell that I don't want you to know about. Reck's nullish but feels town based on role and overall lack of effort to town-tell in a way that makes me think he's going to eventually get into this more strongly. Leaving Varsoon, NSG, Pork, Nos, or Skitter as scum? Except Skitter's probably town if Varsoon's scum, so probably just Varsoon, NSG, and one of Pork/Nos, with outside chance of Reck or Skitter. That's where I'm at.

You?

[Shoshin]

Meh, almost on the same page, except I don't see the Nos townread at all. Can you explain that to me?

[Shoshin]

Oh, you don't need to explain teh Kokichi read - he's one of the weaker townreads. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see you read SirCake as strong town, he's up there for me with you and Creature.

[Shoshin]

Maybe Kokichi, maybe. I don't know how to read him yet to be honest. Looking back, it'd odd how long he took to vote Varsoon, and I don't like that he's casting suspicion on SirCake, almost like he's forcing a connection between the two. I dunno. Maybe.

[Shoshin]

It's almost like Kokichi wanted to distance from Varsoon without actually getting a wagon, but we jumped too strongly on it for him to avoid moving there. But not something to really worry about for today.

Also, yeah, Skitter, I like the wall posts, it was easier to read you with those.

[Shoshin]

In my experience, the only people to complain about wallposts are scum or badtown.

[Shoshin]

Do you scumread him?

[Shoshin]

Wtf...

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, Pork, NSG, with a chance that it's Kokichi if one flips town? Seems almost too easy.

[Shoshin]

I'm sure on Pork. I strongly doubt that Pork townreads you while egregiously misreading what you said. Most likely explanation for that last post is that Pork knows you're town, barely read anything, saw your last, misread you to be saying that SirCake is scum, and decided to "sheep" you without actually reading anything else you said or actually trying to read you. Doesn't make any sense from town.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, before you commit to that, can you do me a favour and actually read past Porkens games?

Yes, okay. I would have done that eventually just to be sure, hehe.

[Shoshin]

lol

[Shoshin]

I've looked at Transformers. It had more than one scum faction and I think Creature's play there has no bearing on his alignment in normal games that don't have multiple factions. And I assume this is more of a normal setup where scum can't actually scumhunt, so he's town until further notice.

[Shoshin]

ive been town before and scumread someone for doing some shit that i was doing accidentally

behavior is complex, yo

Mistakes are null. But we're not talking about an accidental behavior, we're talking about a self-aware and conscious reaction.

[Shoshin]

Why is RC still town, Irrelephant? That doesn't seem right coming from you.

[Shoshin]

Gachapon vote: Radiant

Have another vote!

[Shoshin]

Reck, you think Varsoon is town?

[Shoshin]

RC, wtf, stop replacing out of games I'm in.

[Shoshin]

Skitter, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

Are you kidding, RC? I told people that irritating you is pro-scum, and they did it anyway. Just play the game and help me figure out who the scum are. At this point, it feels like you don't like playing with me since you've literally left every game we've ever played... like, they're not the only players in the game and you can still have fun scumhunting with me and others who are fun.

For what it's worth, I'm not enjoying the way Reck or Nos are playing so far and Varsoon is just scum, but whatever, they play how they play, and scum are just playing to win and you can't fault them for that. I mostly signed up for this game because you and Irrelephant and Skitter were in it, and I'd be really disappointed if you left because of this. Think about the shit I dealt with in Labyrinth. I wanted to leave the game but I stayed for your sake, plus I knew the attacks were coming from scum or manipulated townies. And look how it turned out? We won, and in hindsight it was a worthwhile game to play even though I didn't like it at the time. Like, sometimes shit sucks but you gotta weather the storm.

[Shoshin]

SirCake, what's your experience with scum Varsoon and track record reading him?

[Shoshin]

Reck, you think Varsoon is town?

yea sure

Why?

[Shoshin]

SirCake, what do you think of Varsoon's lack of paranoia that I could be scum? Feels unnatural that he'd list me as a strong townread when I'm pushing his lynch the way I am and not even engaging with him or asking him questions about his thought process or motives. Like, you'd think there'd be a bit more paranoia about from town in that situation, and a bit more depth to reading the person leading their lynch, not just calling them "honest" and "gullible" and leaving it at that without further questioning.

[Shoshin]

because his comments on me seem like sticking his neck out for a read on me when it has a really high risk to bite him in the ass. id expect varsoon to ignore the conversation about me rather than actively roll up his sleeves and engage w/ it.

Do you think you were obvious town at that point in the game? Why don't you have any worry that Varsoon's just pocketing you?

[Shoshin]

Why is there a high risk of townreading you biting him in the ass?

[Shoshin]

Why would you expect scum Varsoon who gave you the Gachapon vote out of nowhere to ignore a conversation about you when the conversation arose in response to his Gachapon vote? Like, that just doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't ignoring the conversation be a lot scummier?

[Shoshin]

pretty sure all of {you/irrel/kokichi} are town

Why Irrelephant & Kokichi?

[Shoshin]

Mathdino is wrong.

[Shoshin]

Yes.

[Shoshin]

btw to be clear in case this wasn't obvious -- anything I say about how town or scum behave is probabilistic, there's exceptions to everything but that doesn't mean something isn't a tell.

Varsoon's scummy on a lot of different levels. The way he interpreted Kokichi's behavior. Absurd townread on Reck. Calling me "gullible" when it doesn't really fit at all. Exhibiting no paranoia about me in a situation where town probably would have at least some concerns. It adds up. And comparatively, everyone else is a lot more town.

[Shoshin]

Why townread RecK? To pocket him. And manipulate him. Reck is "notorious" (his word) for letting this happen.

And yes, I think he made the townread up. Scum fake reads sometimes, you know? Like, they'll call a townie they want to pocket town, without actually thinking up why that player is town beforehand.

[Shoshin]

Reck's plan? Or Varsoon's?

[Shoshin]

Reck's town.

[Shoshin]

Varsoon isn't.

[Shoshin]

am i misremembering, or did varsoon / reck say that they haven't played together before? unless you're suggesting that someone else who's partnered with varsoon told him about reck's history and came up with a plan for varsoon to do it, how would varsoon know about that history / why would varsoon choose reck in the first place?

it seems oddly specific to me in a way that would suggest something going on that we don't know about that isn't just someone making something up.

Reck said he didn't know Varsoon, but that's irrelevant. Varsoon expressed familiarity with Reck, which is what matters for purposes of reading Varsoon.

Reck's a double voter. and notoriously manipulable. Who better to pocket as scum?

Why are you assuming that something else is going on? I don't see why you'd assume they're both town, that's weird. There's a lot of evidence against Varsoon, not just the fake townread, so maybe you should be reading that behavior in context?

[Shoshin]

Why'd you townread Reck?

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, why would you be surprised at how "stubborn" I am when I literally said I was going to "death tunnel" anyone who pushed Creature's lynch? Like, stubbornness shouldn't be surprising at all after that.

[Shoshin]

NSG, you don't seem very convinced that Reck's scum, either. And that lynch clearly isn't happening. So who are the other scum? What're your reads?

[Shoshin]

That's not true. I interact with people I think are scum all the time. What I sometimes do is ignore pointless questions, but that applies regardless of alignment .

[Shoshin]

When haven't I responded to people I scumread? You're confusing me with someone else, becaue I actually make a point of responding to people I scumread and think it's really anti-town not to respond to reasonable questions from them.

[Shoshin]

Creature, can you help lynch Varsoon please?

[Shoshin]

Eh I don't think that's a big deal. I've had people tunnel me myself as town and not been suspicious they were scum.

The problem isn't lack of suspicion in general, it's lack of paranoia when he doesn't have much reason you townread me at all.

I don't get why you're sure he's town here...

[Shoshin]

Creature, can you help lynch Varsoon please?

Why?

Explained it a lot already. You think he's town?

[Shoshin]

She posted.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant strongly prefers scum and plays with much more of an agenda than he's had here.

[Shoshin]

I'm gonna be really inactive for the next week.

[Shoshin]

Varsoon is scum imo but I haven't read the last 3 or so pages, just saw the bit about Irrelephant.

[Shoshin]

There's a few meta reasons that Irrelephant is town here, but putting those aside because I don't feel like explaining them, there's one big thing that should convince you -- the fact that he strongly prefers scum, and the fact that he'd place quite a bit of priority on this game if scum because he'd take the challenge of duping both of us very seriously, especially you because of you know what and vengeance is really sweet type of thing.

[Shoshin]

I'm not 100% on Varsoon, but I think my points against him are all pretty strong - the degree of certainty that I'm town just doesn't square with the game or his situation, so I'm fairly sure it's a fake read, and scumreading Koki for stuff that he's self-consciously doing himself and self-aware of doing those things is just really scummy imo

[Shoshin]

I could be persuaded.

Gamma did something earlier in the game that felt really town but a lot of his posts since feel contrived. What's your issue with him?

[Shoshin]

What's your top 7?

[Shoshin]

Why Nos?

[Shoshin]

I can't believe NSG is more town than me. That's absurd.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant? Yes, I can read him. At least I haven't been wrong yet. In two games. Not a large sample size.

But I've read his games as both town and scum and know the difference. I understand all your concerns, because he tends to go with the flow and to sheep a lot more as town in a way that seems opportunistic at times, but the reality is he's usually really lost as town and tends to not know what he's doing whereas he loves to be scum and usually plays much more confidently with a very clear scum agenda. If he were actively leading his own pushes and doing townie things to try make us think he was town, I'd probably have him as null and most everyone else would think he's town, and he'd probably be scum.

[Shoshin]

I can read NSG better than you

You said yourself I have never seen your scum game

I don't have a scum game. Like, there's nothing there.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I don't like lynching Pork today.

Gamma's probably a fine lynch. What's your read there, Koki?

[Shoshin]

Oh yeah, I thought the way Gamma read into Nos was towny early on. It seemed like he was searching deep for the motivations behind what Nos was doing, but I'm not even sure if that's what he was actually doing. I might be the one reading into that. What do you think, RC?

[Shoshin]

I'm not lynching someone just because you dislike them, but if you give me a reason to think Reck's scum, sure. I think double voter is town more often than scum, and the fact that he was checking the game as a hurricane approached when he didn't actually have to check it if he were scum makes me think he's town. Not a great reason, but slightly townier than null.

[Shoshin]

What's your thoughts on Varsoon? I'd like you to tell me why I'm wrong, or something. Like, if we can come to a consensus, that'd be better than just sheeping.

[Shoshin]

I don't know Reck at all, except that he apparently has been playing mafia a very long time and presumably he'd have learned a thing or three in that time. But some people don't every learn, so who knows?

[Shoshin]

I'm not scumreading Nos but I just don't see anything town about him.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, stop pushing the line that I'm scumreading Kokichi for play I was making--that's a gross misrepresentation of both my reasons for having an early scumread there, my reasons for loudly pushing it, and the reality of my situation not even being the same as Kokichi's. You getting hung up on a lie of a detail is clouding your judgment and keeping you from moving on to form much better reads than an incorrect scumread on me.

I thought I was "honest town" but now I'm a liar? And you're still not scumeading me?

RC, please lynch this.

[Shoshin]

Hey NSG, assuming Irrelephant's town, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

Two Gammas? That'll be confusing.

[Shoshin]

What are the consensus scumreads and why? While I intend to read it’ll be a while and I don’t want to be dead weight rn

Hey friend, Varsoon is scum.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, I have yet to do this myself, but out of curiosity have you re-read all of your interactions with Varsoon? Just wondering if this is mostly misunderstanding. Like I don't townread Varsoon but I do also stand by my earlier guess that he might just be in the lynchbait spot. I'm townreading you lots so you're not the scum here but is it possible it's just playstyle differences?

Misunderstanding? No. Varsoon is scum who got caught early and now is trying to make up for it with lots of meanignless activity that hasn't actually got us any closer to finding scum and none of which actually contains anything towny. His ISO is empty of meaningful scumhunting.

[Shoshin]

Gammagooey's 826 is a terrible post and probably means he's partnered with Varsoon, as we suspected.

[Shoshin]

Irrel's subtle defense of Varsoon pings as well, so that's bad.

[Shoshin]

Creature's absurdly town and shouldn't ever be lynched, and he should stop complaining about the townreads, better that he die tonight than me.

[Shoshin]

Oh, I don't know who a consensus scumread is, or if there is one, but I do know that I'm town and that I'm a consensus townread.

[Shoshin]

Well, take a look at Varsoon.

[Shoshin]

@Varsoon

If you're town, who are the scum?

[Shoshin]

Can you link most recent town and scum games for me?

[Shoshin]

Anyone ever see RC replace out of a game as scum? I'd be willing to bet it happens a lot more often as town than scum.

[Shoshin]

Do you have a scum game that isn't multi?

[Shoshin]

More game links would be helpful. I also don't want your commentary, please don't provide.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant's a bad vote. Very bad.

[Shoshin]

Would flip Varsoon as info lynch at this point too

Wtf No, never do an info lynch, this is terrible. Man, Irrel, you're making me doubt you're town, ugh.

[Shoshin]

Well, I can't get to this game until September 25 so not much I can do about what you decide to do before then. But for what it's worth, I think I have a better grasp on reading Irrelephant than anyone else in this game, at least based on experience with him and previous record and just talking about the game with him, and I think he's probably town. Something to think about.

[Shoshin]

It'd be nice if you guys don't lynch one of my townreads...

[Shoshin]

Irrel's 886 is a massive town tell btw

[Shoshin]

Why Reck?

[Shoshin]

If scum Irrel thought you'd scumread him for saying something, he wouldn't say it...

[Shoshin]

Why coasting scum instead of disengaged town?

[Shoshin]

Hmm, maybe. Why not Varsoon?

[Shoshin]

Why are you voting town Irrel?

[Shoshin]

Maybe explain how?

See 1050.

[Shoshin]

I don't think you understand how a towntell works.
1050 can be wifom'd. It's not irrefutable proof. Scum can do anything.

I don't think you understand how it works ...

Town tells are probabilistic...

WIFOM is just a fancy way of saying the improbable is possible.

886 is a strong indication that Irrel's town. I say this knowing Irrel and how he thinks/plays as town vs scum.

[Shoshin]

Could Irrel WIFOM 886 as scum? Yes. Is he likely to do so? No.

[Shoshin]

I'd rather lynch Varsoon. Just look at the way he's shading Irrel. It's super scummy.

[Shoshin]

I don't think you understand how a towntell works.
1050 can be wifom'd. It's not irrefutable proof. Scum can do anything.

Like, look at this. Very scummy logic from Varsoon.

[Shoshin]

To mislynch a townie, scum must knowingly argue that towny behaviors"could" come from scum. Town, on the other hand, evaluate probability by weighing of it's more likely than not that a behavior is town or scum.

For example, I looked at 886 and evaluated probability - it's likely town. Varsoon, in contrast, looked at 886, looked at my explanation that it's town, and countered by saying it COULD be scum, even though the relevant inquiry for a townie isn't whether it could be scum, it's whether it's likely scum or likely town. Varsoon doesn't care about probability, and instead is reframing probability as possibility (i.e. reframing as WIFOM), and that's a very scummy way to think about the game.

[Shoshin]

I tend to frustrate scum...

[Shoshin]

That's not true at all--scum don't even need to be on a wagon to make a mislynch happen. Town perceive other town as scum all the time--it's how town loses games. Scum can also just fake evaluation, it's pretty easy--and plenty of town don't do earnest evaluation either.

Yes, obviously scum don't need to mislynch to win. They could vote scum all game without ever mislynching, while the townies mislynch themselves. I'd appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth and actually read what I said, because I never suggested otherwise and saying "that's not true at all" when I never even suggested otherwise makes it seem like we're arguing about something when we're not.

Let's review some basic mafia theory together, since you apparently don't undertand how this works. Scum know who the town are. So when scum mislynch townies, they do so knowing that the townie is getting mislynched for behaviors that aren't actually "scummy" for that particular player. The key word in my explanation was "knowingly." I suggest you reread my explanation with that understanding in mind. The point is that scum act with the knowledge that a townie isn't acting scummy, so they must reframe behaviors they know aren't scummy as scummy. One of the ways they do this - and they do it quite often - is by reframing the behavior as "possibly" scummy, because all behaviors are "possibly" so, and because "possibly" thus "probably." It's a sleight of hand logic that scum fall into without even realizing that's what they're doing, and it happens because they're acting knowingly.

Can scum "fake evaluation"? Yes, of course they can, but that doesn't mean they always do. You didn't, because you're just not very good at this game. Don't fault my analysis because of your shortcomings.

Do townies sometimes reframe probability as possibility? Yes, sometimes. But again, I refer you to the basic fact that mafia is probabilistic - when you talk about what town or scum do, you're tlaking about what they're likely to do. Townies, more often than not, talk about probability. Townies, more often than not, don't reframe discussions about probability as possibility when pushing a mislynch on said player and without engaging the substnace of the probabilitic explanation. And players who reframe probabilistic discussions into discussoins about possibilities or WIFOM, more often than not, are scum.

If you're going to respond to this, make sure you understand what I'm saying. As is, you're making a fool of yourself by arguing things I'm not even saying.

This completely disregards the fact I ALREADY GAVE MY OPINIONS ON 866 AND HOW IT IS SCUMMY
The ACTUAL CONTEXT is that you responded to ME SAYING THAT by saying you saw it as A TOWN TELL
and when I asked you why you thought it was a TOWN TELL you said it was just 'more likely to come from town' WHICH IS NOT A TELL
I pointed out that the same argument could be made that BECAUSE people BELIEVE it's more likely to come from town, it'd be a behavior that SCUM would WANT TO display because it would MAKE THEM APPEAR more town
Like how is being CAUTIOUS of another player ATTEMPTING TO APPEAR TOWN IN A CALCULATED WAY a scummy way to approach the game?

This has to do with Irrelephant as a player and person. You don't know Irrelephant. I do. I've read all his games and played with him multiple times and talked about mafia with him. I understand his meta. I know how he thinks. And I know that as scum he exercises a lot more self-control to the point where it's unlikely that he'd say something as scum if he thought someone would interpret it as scummy. It's an unnecessary risk and Irrelephant isn't the sort to take that unnecessary risk when he can just easily town-tell in ways that don't carry any risk.

You dismissed my reasoning by saying that Irrel "COULD" fake that sort of thing. Yes, no shit he could fake it. Anyone can fake anything. That's the sort of thinking that makes anlaysis impossible. It's also the sort of thinking that scum use, as explained above. If you're town, you're never going to convince me that I'm wrong about 886 unless you do the work of reading Irrelephant's games, understanding how he plays and thinks as town/scum, and explaining why he would do something like that as scum (or finding an example of him doing something similar as scum). Until then, there's not much you could say to prove me wrong, since I'm the one who actually understands this particular player better than anyone else in this game.

Like, when it comes to NSG, I'm not going to tell RC how to read her, because he obviously understands how to read her much better than me, having a lot more experience with her and a strong track record of reading her. The absurdity of me telling him how to read her is about as absurd as you telling me how to read Irrel. And it's especially absurd when you just dismiss my read as something that "could" be faked... like, c'mon, engage my substance, read his games, tell me why he's someone who would likely fake this sort of thing. Do you have any evidence that Irrel is someone who would likely fake this?

[Shoshin]

@Varsoon

Assume Irrelephant is town. What are your reads?

[Shoshin]

Not true. Town will play in ways that are scummy all the time. Scum can easily latch onto those.

We have different definitions of the word scummy. I think it defines what scum do, and you seem to think it's just a general term to describe a type of behavior, regardless of a players alignment. So read my analysis with that definition in mind instead of semantically making discussion between us impossible

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gammagoey

[Shoshin]

Hey Gamma, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

You're so self-righteous and 1079 is so infantilizing that I seriously do not want to continue this line of interaction. I really wish you'd just engage me as an equal within the game space.

1080 is my preferred mode.
If I assume Irrelephant is 100% town, then
TOWN
Irrelephant
xRECKONERx
Shoshin
Gammagooey
northsidegal
SirCakez
Nosferatu
Creature
Porkens
skitter30
Kokichi Oma
Gamma Emerald
SCUM

I think this gives us a pretty good idea that Varsoon roleblocked among Gamma, Kokichi, or Skitter, maybe Porkens, and that at least one of these players is scum. I'd lynch between these today.

Creature is town. Reck is town.

Gamma Emerald was town because RC was town, but who knows? The vote on Irrel was bad, and I could see Varsoon blocking him. Thoughts?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: irrelephant this wagon is disgusting but it's better than a nl i guess

VOTE: irrelephant

Both these votes are really bad.

[Shoshin]

Who do you think Varsoon rb'd? His reads seem to point to Emerald/Kokichi, maybe you or Pork.

[Shoshin]

Why is northsidegal town again?

RC said so.

If RC's slot is town, I'll trust it.

But I don't see much reason to townread her, especially after that terrible push on Irrelephant plus her absence from the Gamma wagon.

[Shoshin]

Yeah both of those are pretty bad

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

im rushing in

fuck it VOTE: gammagooey

I think these are bad too

I disagree. 1224 feels like town.

[Shoshin]

I think kokichi

I'm not super seeing gamma scum right now, nor porkens scum

Can you explain why?

[Shoshin]

Gooey.

[Shoshin]

Or was she on it? I wasn't paying attention that closely.

[Shoshin]

NSG, you around? I'd like to talk about the game with you.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Kokichi

[Shoshin]

Self voting seems like something scum Koki would do... and RC felt town... so... let's lynch Koki today and if he's town, Emerald tomorrow.

[Shoshin]

What's different?

[Shoshin]

Huh? I'm about as zoned out of this game as I was Pokemon, so it's weird to hear you say that.

I'm usually much more active / vocal than here or in Pokemon. But what's different about the style? Stylistically, this is how I play.

[Shoshin]

Meh, I had the highest post count in Pokemon up until the point where RC replaced out, so if anything, I said more in that game than I have in this one...

I suppose I post a lot regardless of how tuned to the game I feel. I've barely put any effort into this game or Pokemon, at least compared with my usual amount in games I care about.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I figured you'd unvote. You obviously weren't self-voting because you wanted to die, you were self-voting to fake town-tell, lol..

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I figured you'd unvote. You obviously weren't self-voting because you wanted to die, you were self-voting to fake town-tell, lol..

I can show you games where I've selfed as town.

I wasn't referring to the self-vote, I was talking about unvoting after a self-vote when the reality of your impending doom becomes clear. If you were a townie genuinely interested in dying, I don't think you'd unvote after a single person (me) voted you.

[Shoshin]

Like, look at how Creature self-voted in Pokemon. That's how townies self-vote. They actually mean it.

[Shoshin]

Why'd you self-vote?

[Shoshin]

What happens if two players use the wand of switcher on each other?

[Shoshin]

I’m a food vendor. I won’t say who I targeted or what I vend specifically until someone speaks up about receiving any food. But I figured I could vend to Kokichi tonight, ask who got food, and see if a switcheroo happened. That’s why I said I wasn’t interested in voting him today.

Who did you give food on N1?

[Shoshin]

I want to know if anyone received food on N1.

[Shoshin]

NSG obviously received food if you gave it to her, so let's just lynch Kokichi.

[Shoshin]

NSG is being super annoying though by not just telling us she received the food.

[Shoshin]

Why are people voting Gamma if he wasn't rb'd?

[Shoshin]

More often than not, as a general matter.

[Shoshin]

Gacha vote me

[Shoshin]

Gamma, give me gacha please. NSG could be scum..

[Shoshin]

Gacha is me or Creature.

[Shoshin]

NSG cannot be trusted, please don't gacha her.

[Shoshin]

Gacha vote me

Do you really think stacking all the abilities on one person is smart?

You think NSG is town? And you don't think I'm town?

[Shoshin]

100% I won't die...

The idea is to pile on me because I'm going to carry us. Just trust me.

I have 500+ gold btw so I can switcheroo to guarantee I live, and if scum try to kill me, they might end up killing themselves.

[Shoshin]

I mean, we can do Creature but he actually might die.

[Shoshin]

I think I'm the best option for Gacha, yes. Guaranteed townie, plus I'm not dying, 100%.

[Shoshin]

Nice, thank you. You will not regret it.

[Shoshin]

Unless I play really bad. Which is possible, I guess.

[Shoshin]

Hmm, interesting. Why?

[Shoshin]

Did NSG ever confirm receiving fruit? I don't understand why she's being so uncooperative on that front.

[Shoshin]

Sorry, not fruit, fried unicorn dick? Or something. It was too much for my mind to handle, so I substituted fruit in the memory.

[Shoshin]

We're not lynching Gamma.

[Shoshin]

Koki, if Gamma's scum, who do you think his partner is?

[Shoshin]

Why are people voting Gamma? WTF?

[Shoshin]

I didn't realize this game was in such bad shape.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, why are people voting you, and why do you seem resigned to your death?

[Shoshin]

Why'd you stop voting Koki?

[Shoshin]

We reconsider Skitter only if Koki/Gamma are both town.

[Shoshin]

If one of them is scum, Skitter's likely town.

[Shoshin]

The RB is almost certainly among those three players, though.

[Shoshin]

Hey Creature, why don't you want to vote Koki?

[Shoshin]

what is this ridiculous shade? that discussion was ended like an entire week ago. how at all am i being "uncooperative"?

What's "ridiculous shade" about me saying that I trust myself more than you? This is a massive overreaction on your part and actually concerning.

And yes, you were "uncooperative" in that you didn't immediately answer whether you received food when the issue came up and then never gave a straight answer. It was really unnecessarily vague and delayed in a way that was really frustrating to deal with, as pretty much anyone can attest (Gamma obviously has).

[Shoshin]

i can't understand why you're not townreading me.

The only reason I townread you is because of RC, and that depends on his slot being town, which isn't clear at this point. In terms of your actual play, you've pretty much done nothing towny, and you've done something scummy in that you lynched Irrelephant despite his obvious townness and despite the fact that I pointed out multiple reasons to townread him.