Mini Normal 2023 - Game Over

[BuJaber]

Maybe we should start here first

VOTE: manwithnoname

[BuJaber]

I really think krazy's plan was to hard defend hiraki and push una hard and then when he flips scum and Una doesn't die we start to question why and start suspecting Una. So since Una is a policy lynch anyway later if she's alive let's not. That leaves DrD, hiraki, titus. We can use hiraki's action still if he's town. And if he's not we'll also lynch him at some point later if he isn't dead.

Between drD and titus I don't see titus flipping scum at all. DrD is probably scum but both gamma and noname have flaked hard and with the no kill it may explain it. I don't think gamma is the type to give up as town and he's been posting elsewhere on site so it isn't real life keeping him away. Maybe he disliked the attitude in this game but either way it's not a big loss and I'd rather just know his alignment instead of remain paranoid.

[BuJaber]

Another theory is that krazy never voted for scum except when he hammered James.

Throughout the game krazy voted for: Locke/una, garmr, me, gustavo/titus, akarin, gamma/noname. I think that's it. I quickly skimmed his ISO if I missed one sorry.

But let's look at the final VCs again.

[BuJaber]

VC 1.Final

James Brafin (7) Garmr, BuJaber,

popopopopopopo

, Akarin, Music, Hiraki,

Krazy

Garmr (3)

James Brafin

,

UnrealSeal

, Gustavo
DrDolittle (2) Locke113, Gamma Emerald
BuJaber (1) DrDolittle

With 13 players, it takes 7 to lynch

A lynch has been achieved

You think 2 scum will bus? Krazy never once voted for james in day except to hammer. He wanted to lynch garmr or me mainly. Scum in this game may have decided not to bus primarily. At the very least it looks like krazy isn't really a busser. (Hammer is a bit different because it ends the day before town can and is generally considered too conspicious to be scum, so a non-bussing scum can still consider it).

So initially I'm thinking there's 1 scum off wagon and that krazy will not vote for his buddies.

VC 2.FINAL

UnrealSeal

(7) Bujaber, Akarin, Hiraki,

popopopopopopo

, Garmr, Titus, Music
Akarin (4)

Krazy

,

UnrealSeal

, DrDolittle, ManWithNoName
Garmr (1) UnaBombaH

Not Voting (0)

With 12 players, it takes 7 to lynch

A lynch has been achieved

DrD and noname slot both off james wagon, both voting for akarin the counter wagon to seal. More importantly krazy voted for akarin which could indicate town!akarin.

Garmr, titus, music on tail end of mislynch.

VC 3.FINAL

Krazy (6) BuJaber, Garmr, ManWithNoName, Hiraki, Music, Akarin
Bujaber (1) Krazy
Akarin (1) Titus

Not Voting (2) UnaBombaH, DrDolittle

With 10 players, it takes 6 to lynch

A lynch has been achieved

DrD and Una not even voting.

Music on tail end of wagon for 3rd time in a row. He's just very sheepy this game. Maybe he's trying to deepwolf in a roundabout way but why would he no kill. Imo while he is not the best poster his votes are rather consistently on wagons and his comes from town who's just happy to follow the opinion of others that are more knowledgeable of the game. No lynching as scum requires a solid end-game plan for scum. He doesn't seem like someone with an agenda at all.


You know what this doesn't look great for Una.

But drD looks worse.

I know I'm biased man but everytime I reevaluate this slot looks bad to me. And he had a big issue with me suggesting there's 1 on 1 off the james wagon earlier. But then krazy defended their claim pretty hard saying there's no scum motivation at all. I'm oretty comfortable assuming krazy didn't want to bus this game. But I'm not sure that necessary means he will hard defend his buddies either.

But I think I can comfortably say last scum is in {drD, noname, una, hiraki}

I propose we lynch in this order: noname > drD > una > hiraki

[BuJaber]

6. A mafia member may not both kill and use a power role in the same night.

This is very relevant.

Mechanics wise roleblocker makes the most sense for scum.

But why claim you forgot to submit action? If he's doing it for WIFOM why didn't he just kill and claim this anyway.

He may have been afraid of drD but I think anyone reading the game last day phase would never expect drD to suspect hiraki.

And then there's Una.. god damn I want to townread that slot so damn hard but it worries me. What possible 'reasons' are there for town to wait before claiming? Scum have motivation when they want to craft the perfect lie but town?

Like doc isn't even something that scum lying would be afraid about because doc isn't a role that can call them out on it. If he thinks hiraki is scum and wants to trap him... what could hiraki say that would be a slip? Nothing I can come up with. Scum!hiraki could even go as far as saying he blocked Una (dumb claim but bear with me) and una would have no way to prove him wrong.

Also as long as doc is alive scum can't target who they want. Yes town!roleblocker works like an investigative which is dangerous, but doc can protect RB, logic points to town!una dying first. Also if both are town I'd rather have RB alive than town. So we will lynch una before hiraki.

[BuJaber]

Titus are you in a hood with anyone or was that action blocked? I forget.

[BuJaber]

You've teased us enough man. I promise you I'm salivating AND on the edge of my seat. Spill the beans!

[BuJaber]

Titus are you in a hood with anyone or was that action blocked? I forget.

Garmr.

So when did DrD claim out of shots?When did he fullclaim?

It's in there somewhere. ISO him. He claimed X number of shots and he used one shot night 2. Now he posted X = 1.

For the sake of considering all angles.... do you have any insights on garmr from the hood?

@Garmr - any insights on Titus from the hood?

[BuJaber]

Pretty sure that recruitable unkillable by scum traitor breaks normal game rules.

[BuJaber]

You had to add another layer of WIFOM surrounding your role.

Sigh.
Fine then
Noname > drD > hiraki > Una

[BuJaber]

If you all trust everyone else this order never loses.

Hiraki roleblock Una tonight please.

[BuJaber]

Titus told me to lynch Una bomber if he claimed to protect me.

If he claimed it today? Or earlier?

[BuJaber]

This setup is balanced if everybody is not lying and hiraki is scum roleblocker lol. X-shots are very good for tweaking the power level. If hiraki is perma RB that'd be too OP for town. If he's also x-shot I'd be on the fence.

To be honest I don't think I like any 2-shot claim. It's one of those numbers where instinctively it feels like a lie.

But regardless just stick with my order and neither hiraki nor una can win if one of them is lying.

[BuJaber]

Garmr please don't do that replace out thing again.
We took way too long to recover from that as a group.

[BuJaber]

I can't speak about anyone else but the only reason I voted James over you is that he seemed scummier and I know him more than I know you.

It was pure luck on my part.
I didn't believe your reaction was actually genuine at all.

[BuJaber]

Why wouldn't he protect hiraki?

Like you either think hiraki is scum and therefore you would want to lynch him now or you think doc should protect hiraki.

I don't see any other reasonable options from town POV.

[BuJaber]

@garmr - I'm suggesting that he would protect hiraki yesterday. Earlier he didn't know hiraki was RB he wouldn't.

You're a great NK for scum but not if hiraki is town RB. Town RB is the strongest late game role for town, if there's only 1 killing scum left.

You guys aren't addressing Una's paranoia regarding traitor. We could have traitor but not the way he described. If he didn't protect anyone and hiraki didn't RB anyone then scum definitely didn't kill.

Therefore by entertaining that possibility Una is doing some shady shit. Especially that if he is truthful about his perspective hiraki should be an auto vote for him.

Una > noname > drD > hiraki

Man Una if you let hiraki out-town you as scum when you are town I'd be very disappointed. Your story has too many holes in it.

VOTE: Una

[BuJaber]

I'm not voting for una because he's PR. It's because he's being weird.

Frankly my order doesn't matter for the big picture. If someone has a problem with the 4 names I proposed that's what we need to discuss. Otherwise we lynch these 4 and guarantee we get our scum.

[BuJaber]

Actually okay let's do this if I've been right since day 1 about golden robster I want to know now. It will look and feel better.
VOTE: DrD

[BuJaber]

@Una that's what I'm saying Una. Scum not killing points to one of you/hiraki as the scum. What's wrong with my statement? If there is only 1 scum then town RB is the strongest role. Same with 1 scum and 1 traitor. If there are 2 scum (or a traitor becomes full scum) doc becomes stronger.

The holes in Una's story the way I see it:
-he tried to suggest the no kill = scum recruited traitor but in normal guidelines that would require a recruitable AND bulletproof traitor. Seems unlikely.
- 2 shot is a suspicious claim in general because at this stage of the game we would expect scum to kill threatening PRs like doc, cop, RB etc. If he's out of shots we can't use the argument "he's alive he probably lied about being doc" therefore it comes across as defensive. Obviously he could be 2 shot but it's still very convenient.
-claiming he would protect garmr over hiraki but then not agressively pushing for a hiraki lynch. Una if town is the only one who knew he was out of shots and the only one who knows that he didn't protect. From his POV he should either think hiraki is RB or hiraki is scum. Hiraki claimed he didn't RB. So scum didn't kill Una/hiraki WHY? Shouldn't Una translate that into hiraki is scum? Scum want the wifom of both alive so we suspect them. If 1 is alive we would just lynch him instantly. Hiraki going after una makes sense from town perspective I would expect una to reciprocate.


People still having trouble with the paranoia so they can't agree to a lynch.
There are multiple reasons for lynching noname so if we can't agree on which one of the PRs to lynch let's start with noname. We'll see how long scum follow this no kill strategy.

[BuJaber]

Actually okay let's do this if I've been right since day 1 about golden robster I want to know now. It will look and feel better.
VOTE: DrD

well get ready to look and feel worse

The trick is to always expect that I'm wrong. That way I'm always disappointed.

You claimed one of the weakest investigatives there is and then you claim you didn't even use it day 1 and then you claim you got roleblocked and then you claim you are out of shots.
Just like Una the problem with your claim is that it's just too convenient as a lie. You left us with nothing to scrutinize you over.
Only hiraki's points about you is what makes you a possible townie. But then we add Robster's play in day 1 to the mix and holy moly does your slot look suspicious.

Like I said. Town has to agree to lynch one of Una/Hiraki/DrD. If the votes are split we go with noname. He is the most likely non PR to flip scum. Gamma flaked, noname flaked, I don't have high hopes for a replacement at this late stage of the game. Perfect compromise lynch while we ponder over the PR claims some more.

[BuJaber]

Oooooh wow nice locke quote.
So both locke and una state some inaccurate stuff about normal traitor guidelines.

[BuJaber]

Oh I got confused when I read mafia spy variation.

Okay so Una's paranoia is unfounded.

This makes much more sense because the golden rule of normal games is no mid game changes.

Therefore 1 no kill MIGHT be accounted for yesterday if they shot traitor and traitor was bulletproof but in that scenario only una, hiraki, drD can be traitor as I can't imagine scum shot anyone else.

Apart from that scum didn't kill for WIFOM in which case thanks scum.

But since traitor cannot he recruited scum would absolutely not leave both una and hiraki alive. Therefore we need to kill una/hiraki.

VOTE: Una

Una > hiraki > drD > noname

[BuJaber]

Yes this works.

If there is a traitor scum + traitor is hiraki/drD. Because the only person who might shoot drD at night would be scum!hiraki as it is great WIFOM for him and in case drD is town it would give more credit to hiraki's claim that he blocked him. So it is the best NK to clear hiraki. So drD is either traitor or town.

If there is no traitor scum is either Una or noname.

This covers all bases.

[BuJaber]

Robster being traitor could also explain her actions. She wanted to make it obvious to scum that she knew garmr's alignment while at the same time getting towncred for defending a townie.

Yeah let's have noname be our last lynch. This new order is way better.

[BuJaber]

And I'm killing Una first because if hiraki is town I'd like jim to use his power one more time at least.

[BuJaber]

Oh come on though..
They must have some idea though. If they are afraid of shooting their traitor they would just kill some random other person. They must have a list of people they know are NOT traitor that they can shoot in.

I'm telling you last night makes 0 sense if both Una and hiraki are town. At the very least.. the very least they would kill you for being pretty much conf town which will make us supect Una/hiraki even more.

Let me put it this way. Only 3 people benefit from no kill. Una, hiraki, and drD.
Anyone else would have somebody they can afford to kill without suspicion.

Why? Simply because those 3 were, as far as we all knew publicly in the thread still had an ability remaining. They know they would be potential targets of each other so they don't risk it. Also they want to keep the pool of living PRs as big as possible to not make it easy to lynch in them.

[BuJaber]

And the more I think about it the more I think that hiraki can only he scum with drD.

But 4 normal scum is op so that's where traitor talks come in.

Yeah I'm done this game is solved.

Solo scum: either Una or noname.
Scum + traitor: drd and hiraki.

[BuJaber]

Garmr hear me out.
We lynch hiraki tomorrow.

Tonight if hiraki is town scum HAVE to kill him or he can give us one final piece of info. Sure they can no kill again, but all that actually does is give us an extra mislynch so it's good.

Una today. If he flips scum it's over. If he flips town we lynch hiraki tomorrow. If scum shoot hiraki, we lynch no name. If noname flips town we lynch drD.

If una flips scum and game isn't over that would be fun. But we can think about that only if it happens.

[BuJaber]

You know what Una you keep promising to read and sort people and then still come back with "I need to sort between Buj/hiraki".

I'll make you a deal. This is my last post until you actually formulate a solid opinion on me, hiraki, noname, and drD.

I've said my peace anyway. If scum isn't one of the 4 I mentioned I won't be able to suspect them. So congrats if that's the case. Apart from that if we lynch these 4 in any order we win.

Also if Una isn't lying I'm pretty sure he'll correctly townread me if he actually does what he promised so if una manages to convince you guys to lynch me lynch him the next day.

[BuJaber]

He's not catching up / reading / rereading whatever he says he needs to do.

I actually townread one single thing that drD did. Not that it matters because we still have to lynch him, and all the other stuff I've said about him / his slot still applies as scummy.

But like you know when he says "prepare to be disappointed when I flip town"? The first time is expected, the 2nd, 3rd we can say it's WIFOM. But at some point scum would ignore me right? Why does he keep bringing it up. How many times would he do it for WIFOM.

If Una actually wants to bother and actually form some solid opinions on the remaining players his response could make me switch to Noname. Otherwise I've pretty much laid out the correct lynch order for every scenario of flips/nightkills

[BuJaber]

VC 4.FINAL

UnaBombaH (5) Hiraki, BuJaber, DrDolittle, Akarin, Not_Mafia
DrDolittle (4) Titus, Music, Garmr, UnaBombaH

Not Voting (0)

With 9 players, it takes 5 to lynch

A lynch has been achieved

You're telling me the last scum in the game hammers your counter wagon rather than lynching you and saving himself? Not mafia is the new manwithnoname.

Tbh I thought if Una flips town he'll flip full doc.
I can imagine scum thought so too and wantd to make sure the doc died.

Anyway no death makes it easy. We can afford 1 mislynch if there are 2 scum, more if there's 1. If hiraki doesn't contradict drD in some way we lynch NM. If he flips town we lynch drD.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: NM
DrD's vote doesn't count I think.

[BuJaber]

And not flake out.

[BuJaber]

People who said it's townsided are probably right.

We weren't a bad town per se, but we had way too many personality clashes. Like I've never seen a game where the outcome was decided in no small part by the fairly quiet people voting for the right person at the right time.