Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!


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Post Post #1025 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:51 am

Post by Flicker »

Votecount 2.12

Dunnstral (4)
- northsidegal , Irrelephant11 , Keyser Söze , the worst
Ausuka (2)
- Eragon , Reundo
northsidegal (1)
- Toranaga
Reundo (1)
- Ausuka
Keyser Söze (1)
- Nauci

Not voting: Dunnstral

The deadline for Day 2 is 2:17 pm CT on Thursday, September 20, in (expired on 2018-09-20 15:17:24).
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Post Post #1026 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:00 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

No longer interested in a Nauci flip (@Nauci the reason I ever was was mostly vca, I think your slot was in the next most interesting position last game day and until recently your posting wasn't enough for me to townread you)

In post 981, Nauci wrote:(and something about :twisted: rubs me the wrong way)
Ooh I did feel this too
In post 983, Nauci wrote:-418 I extremely want to see Irrelephant’s explanation for this one
??
In post 983, Nauci wrote:It makes no sense to me why keyser wouldn’t call him out on his obsession or, at the very least, blatant attempts to pocket, OR the issues with his posting that town keyser 100% would have called out based on my experience with him. If this was town keyser I seriously couldn’t fathom in the slightest how he doesn’t call out the gross pocketing
This is a reaaaaally good point actually
In post 998, Nauci wrote:Irrelephant are you tired of me joining your games and putting you through all this yet
Not yet but getting there :lol:
In post 1004, Nauci wrote:this is townrrelephant–final answer
it's a good answer
In post 1020, Nauci wrote:are you happy now duckyI think I dropped like 3k words just for the rough and terse catch up notes
idk about duck but I am :D :D :D

great let's lynch Dunnstral now

@Reundo you seem to be good at sorting come vote dunnstral or tell me another lynch that would be better and why
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Post Post #1027 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:11 am

Post by Eragon »

Eh I’m good with dunnstral too, even if he’s not my #1

I really should probably ISO him
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Post Post #1028 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:29 am

Post by Toranaga »

ok lets lynch dunn, sure

but if it's town

aus/nsg is still where I'm at

VOTE: dunnstrall
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Post Post #1029 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:30 am

Post by Toranaga »

I'm townreading it but it's such a hero read for thin things it's not really relevant and it's not strong
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Post Post #1030 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:44 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

ftr the only way nauci is scum here is if it's with ausuka I think

Btw
That's L-1
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Post Post #1031 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:14 am

Post by Toranaga »

I'll he kind of attentive in an hour or so

UNVOTE: ausuka

I'm voting to hammer this later, I might decide to read it when I'm back
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Post Post #1032 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:14 am

Post by Toranaga »

UNVOTE: dunnugh

im dumb

ok
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Post Post #1033 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:15 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 984, Nauci wrote:Quick and dirty reads list before I head into the 600s

Skitter Tier
:

Reundo - Bellaphant of the ball
nsg - this is so outside of scumsg range and definitely in burned-out-townsg range

You know what? You's alright
:

Toranga
Eragon
Ausuka

Wouldn’t bet on these
:

Dunnstral
The worst

Naughty little boys and well actually just boys
:

Keyser
Irrelephant
Myself or Irrelephant11 are very unlikely scum and shouldn’t be lynched today.

You’ll have to investigate us again Nauci :twisted:
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Post Post #1034 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:21 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

So like here's where I'm at. I think volxen was pretty straightforwardly scum, and I think his associations should be leading our lynch.

I'm gonna go double check what those were again because I forget
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Post Post #1035 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:24 am

Post by Ausuka »

honestly I'm not very enthusiastic about a Dunnstral lynch anymore and I think it'll flip town tbh. I realize that's not very helpful and nobody wants to lynch Reundo rn so I'll make time to do something more substantial later
when nobody is probably going to be around to react to it :(
.
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Post Post #1036 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:24 am

Post by Toranaga »

volxen was fairly easy catch yeah

I like how we spent part of d2 parading around how obviously scum he was on d1

poor dude
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Post Post #1037 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:26 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

lol not what I meant
I don't mean "he was really bad at playing scum" which is sorta true but you live and learn, whatever
I mean "the way he played scum was pretty textbook and I think his associations are going to be more helpful than the average flipped scum, so we don't need to get weird/paranoid with the lynch"
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Post Post #1038 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:28 am

Post by Toranaga »

ah yeah, maybe

I need to do a thing then I'm here to read the game and hopefully catch those associations if they're there
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Post Post #1039 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:23 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

@Nauci - what does ‘scum The Worst’ look like in your own words?
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Post Post #1040 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:46 am

Post by Toranaga »

1k posts isn't actually that much so let's get to it
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Post Post #1041 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:52 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

If Dunnstral posted the next 1k that’d be cool.
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Post Post #1042 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:07 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

volxen associations:
- RVS votes GNB[tw]
- He parrots NSG's (without mentioning nsg) "why say not to townread yourself?" case on GNB[tw]
- He shades Sesq[Nauci] for poorly scumcasing Keyser
- He continues to argue with GNB[tw] and answers Ausuka's question about GNB[tw]
- Asks 2.718[Huntress] if he's still scumreading Keyser
- Answers Toranaga's question about GNB[tw] ("I'm nullreading him")
- He townreads Keyser for weak reasons; nullreads nsg in few words; nullreads GNB[tw] in very many words; scumreads 2.718[Huntress] with his most in-depth thought processes yet. His reasons for the scumread are:
> Misrepping Keyser
> Siding with Reundo against Keyser
> Townreading Reundo with poor reasoning
- Tries to direct attention off his slot by pointing at lurkers. Namely: 2.718[Huntress], Toranaga, and Sesq. Notably, part of his scumread of Tor is that Tor thinks scum is in 2.718[Huntress]/volxen/sesq. I think this is somewhat clearing for Tor (in addition to the towncred he does actually deserve for the volxen lynch) because I don't think their scum play here was to name each other in their lynchbait lists.
- Reiterates his scumreads from his previous posts. Also says Reundo/Keyser is either t/t or s/t (Keyser being town either way)
- says hi to the worst (not really indicative, I'm just being thorough)
- He answers nsg's question about knowing the worst ("yes")
& - continues to talk about nsg, this time about his experience with mafia and mafiascum.
- Becomes the fourth vote on sesq
- Welcomes Huntress
- Helps sesq try to unvote
- Welcomes Eragon
- Claims watcher in response to me
- Tries to shift wagon movement back to sesq in response to me
- Shades Reundo for attacking Keyser one more time after his lynch is inevitable
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Post Post #1043 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:27 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Takeaways


In the green
: Nauci is almost certainly town, as I think volxen was being survivalistic at the end there by trying to get sesq to unvote correctly and move wagons back to sesq

Toranaga is almost certainly town or is scum who bussed v impressively. He and volxen scumcased each other like they really wanted one another dead

I guess it's more likely nsg is town here for the way their interactions were always at a sort of diagonal angle? If that makes sense? Nothing to either suggest they're buddies or not aligned, with a normal amount of interaction. An ideal distance for scum buddies but I don't think it's likely that volxen was at that sort of ideal distance with his scum buddies

Reundo looks good as a player volxen seemed to think could be an easier mislynch. This one is a little weaker, but overall it just doesn't feel like scum theater

Hmmm
: Volxen never has any interaction from his side with the Kop[Eragon] slot or Dunnstral, except to welcome Eragon to the game. I think this is mostly meaningless for Eragon, less certain on what it means for Dunnstral, who actively tried to shift people off the volxen wagon early on.

Yikes
:
Ausuka and volxen don't have any meaningful interaction from volxen's ISO. Instead, Ausuka lobs him an easy question, he answers, and then he ignores her.

Fine, I'll admit that Keyser can be scum here. I think it's very likely that either Keyser or the worst are scum here, actually (even though I've said I don't think they're partners - which idk if I'm right about)

Thoughts? UNVOTE:
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Post Post #1044 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:29 am

Post by Toranaga »

should start with this NSG ISO, since it's the one slot my read really radically differs from everyone else.

first 10 posts are objectively scum indicative to me. she spends a good amount of time overexplaining how it "doesn't make sense" and "seems kinda fake" for GNB to be bothered with getting townread for effort early on, just to end on a note that it didn't even ping her on a scum level (see below). she explains sesq mindset for sesq in #27, in a reply to keyser, for absolutely no reason and without even undersatanding what sesq's post was about. I know by now and I never read differently, that sesq was literally just asking to be townread? and NSG takes keyser's misinterpretation of it and answers sesq for her without even considering the possibility that sesq was not being ironic in that post.

so here is the post she says she is not pinged by GNB:
In post 170, northsidegal wrote:dunnstral seems kind of scummy right now, so that's a good a place as any for a vote.

i remember someone asking or pondering upon why i wasn't voting GNB if i was apparently scumreading him, and while i didn't and still don't really understand the mindset of what he was saying, it didn't really ping me as all that scum indicative on an instintcutal level.

anyways,
VOTE: dunnstral
consider NSG is veteran enough to understand that nonsensical thinking does not equal scummy and that questioning nonsense will very often lead to dead ends. also consider that, it's not actually that hard to see GNB's posting there as towny or understand why he'd be bothered with townreads for effort. I can see town thinking like this, even though ofc it doesn't bother me to be getting free passes for posting many words, and more importantly, even if I didn't understand it I'd be coming from a position of "is this scum motivated?" when challenging GNB on his views, which isn't something NSG is doing here. she is writing many words that lead the game nowhere, instead of pursuing things she finds alignment indicative. I'm very bothered that she'd spend half her posting at this point pursuing something that didn't even ping her at all in the first place. what pinged her? dunnstral. why didn't se ask dunnstral anything, then? why isn't she going after him, instead of creating this pointless conversation with GNB?

so I'm already at a point here, that NSG needs to town the fuck up very hard for me to townread her slot overrall and I, quite frankly, don't remember much of anything I saw from her that got me there yet. we'll see...
In post 171, northsidegal wrote:
In post 155, Kop wrote:I think Keyser is town from the quick glancing I made. I have played with Keyser quite a bit under a different alias on another website, and kinda know what his town game is, and what his scum game is. Unless his game play is different over here compared to over on the other website I play with him, but at the moment, I am getting his town game play from what I've seen so far.
how accurate would you say you are when it comes to reading keyser? i just want to know your degree of confidence here.

on a different note, kop's staccato sentences with all of the commas are standing out to me. from memory i don't really remember him talking like that, although i could certainly be wrong here. i'm going to check for myself soon (if not right after this then this should serve as a reminder), but does anyone else who's played with kop remember that?
again. this is GNB's nonread all over again. she is voting dunnstral without talking about him at all in any meaningful way, and then starts going over... commas? and if he is now talking in commas, so what? is that anything indicative? why is she not talking about her actual scumread? why are the things NSG points out so blatantly not scummy things at all?
In post 174, northsidegal wrote:
In post 173, Dunnstral wrote:For real though I've got no clue what Kop's normal posting style is like - why do you think the commas are AI?
saying that my opinion is "commas are scummy" is an utter misrepresentation of what i'm trying to say

he's typing in an awkward manner and it's an awkward manner that i'm not sure i remember him doing in the games i've seen him as town

not sure how you could frame that as my opinion being "commas are scummy"
no, dunn is right. you're quite literally shading someone's punctuation instead of going deep over their thoughts or anything smart. this is fake scumhunting if I've ever seen one and I'm astonished, I'm appalled, I'm confused and sad this is being townread.
In post 232, northsidegal wrote:
In post 176, Dunnstral wrote:I mean, that looks like exactly what you're saying here, except replace that with "Kop's commas are scummy"
i began a response to this a day or so ago but never finished it

the statement "kop's commas are scummy" implies that in a vacuum i think that the use of commas is scum-indicative (patently absurd). the punctuation itself is secondary to my main point - i noticed a stylistic difference between the way someone was typing here and the way that i remember that same person typing in a previous game as scum. i don't think anyone would possibility dispute that that has a very good chance of being in some way meaningful.

-shrug-

you're being far less reasonable than i typically expect you to be, and i'm not sure if i should take it as scum-indicative or not
this is how she is talking about someone she is voting right now. her dunn read had 0 progression so far, and her other reads had 0 progression so far. "not sure if scum indicative or not" is so slimy, too. can't it be town indicative? why don't you go one step above "you're not understanding my POV" here? is the fact that he is mocking your read alignment indicative? what is your kop read anyway? blablabla commas, and so what, is there anything else?

literally not pushing anything reasonable and not progressing the gamestate in any way. I can't see this as anything else but stalling the game. there's nothing towny here. also "you're being far less reasonable than I expect" is so over the top I wonder if it makes dunn scum with NSG. cause dunn mocks NSG, but also makes no read there, and then NSG overreacts to it. it just feels slimy from both parts.
In post 234, northsidegal wrote:
In post 187, Keyser Söze wrote:Not sure I buy into NSG’s “staccato sentence/comma” theory - unless you can clearly show Kop only posting this style as scum, I think it’s too reachy for my taste.
wasn't much of a "theory" in the first place, nor something to "buy into" before more research was done. despite how dunnstral may want you to look at it, it was really only ever something that stuck out to me as being potentially a thing / relevant, hence my asking anyone else for information. honestly, i still haven't done the meta on kop that i wanted to.
In post 206, Irrelephant11 wrote:Because NSG is hard townreading you and one of the following is true:
-She's town and probably correct
-She's scum and correct
-You're both scum <--- in this situation, I have no useful reads on any players, so I'm assuming it's not this
ah, the mathdino-style reads. i love it!
234 posts into the game and it's still just empty. what NSG did twice already, and then upped her postcount with, and very little else, was:

1 - she does a bad/unnecessary nitpicky take on a slot (GNB townreading thing, kop's commas);
2 - she then defends that her point of view is valid when people find it strange.

other reads? ausuka is town, no reasons given, dunn is scummy, no reasons given.

235 is the hedgiest read ever

then this
In post 236, northsidegal wrote:it angers me the way dunnstral has framed my argument, genuinely.
maybe they're just scum together. if NSG is voting him and thinks he "framed" her, why isn't she casing him? are you genuinely upset with someone you think it's scum cause they're trying to win? just what mindset is this?
In post 291, northsidegal wrote:
In post 277, the worst wrote:
In post 170, northsidegal wrote:dunnstral seems kind of scummy right now, so that's a good a place as any for a vote.
wHY
mainly i felt like -nothing- he was saying early was actually town indicative, which on its own might not make that much sense (not noticing towny things = scum?) but i feel like it's relevant. if someone is town thwn i would expect that they would show it in some way. here's what i mean (aka my shitty mathdino-style "lolcase" that will, going off of previous experience, get me either scumread or into a very stupid argument that lasts longer than it should):

Spoiler:
In post 23, Dunnstral wrote:We end up at 4 people alive but 1 person is confirmed town (watcher) or there's a cc

So it's not worse
completely mechanically speaking, irrelevant to alignment
In post 117, Dunnstral wrote:I mean it's not worse than a regular game at 3 people alive

----

Keyser I don't think I caught you in the game we played, not sure why you think I should be "taking lead" today either
completely mechanical + statement of fact
In post 117, Dunnstral wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote: If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.
This is bad preflip stuff and you have to jump to a lot of conclusions to get to this point - also it's not warranted at this time

VOTE: Sesq
This is a good place to put a serious vote
this one is arguable but pointing out questionable play is something that can be done as town or scum, perhaps even especially so as scum given that you have insight into if something is already correct (not that that's an argument for it being more likely to come from scum)

and so on (i'm lazy + washed up), i think this trend continues of things that are reasonable from an entirely objective point of view but don't actually really reveal a town mindset continues

it's also possible i'm biased because of his response to what i said regarding kop which i feel was more unreasonable than i expect from dunnstral
empty case, nothing she even points out that's actually scummy, just "not revealing as towny mindset". those interactions/vote/push with dunn are really really bad.
In post 293, northsidegal wrote:anyways, i feel as if this game i'm just going to try to get a towncore and go off of poe mainly

town:
northsidegal
2.718281828459 (unfortunate you didn't replace into this slot ducky, i think it's town)
Ausuka
Keyser Söze (presuming i can trust kop on keyser's alignment and just for now - keyser is someone who i plan to do more meta on when i get the energy or when someone bothers me about it enough)
Irrelephant11

that leaves:
{volxen, the worst, Dunnstral, Reundo, Toranaga, Kop}

which feels vaguely alright in terms of a poe
I townread her telling the worst she thinks numbers is town and is sad he didn't sub in there, but look at the phrasing. it's at the very top of her reads, she doesn't need to point out she thinks it's town any further. also, "i feel as if this game i'm just going to try to get a towncore and go off of poe mainly", how can you even tell these things? isn't every game trying to get a towncore and then killing the POE, at least until you get a proper strong scumread? why say this? weird self awareness, I don't like it at all.

what's next in her ISO? townreading hypocrisy for no reason in #298, goes from dunn to sesq without even saying why she thought sesq was scum, or anything really about sesq other than weirdly defending a mindset she didn't even had on that post to keyser.
In post 318, northsidegal wrote:-shrug-

i'm not particularly concerned about him yet, so i think it's probably fine. i might just tunnel sesq for today and leave it at that.
the worst wrote:shame there's no trackers in this setup
:shifty:
:lol:
and where are you tunneling sesq? you didn't even remember it existed when you made your list, right? and you didn't even explain why you think it was scum.

why are you guys townreading this? should I even keep reading? this is obviously scum, right? I don't care if NSG rolls over and dies every other scumgame of hers. this isn't burn out, this is scum.
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Post Post #1045 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:34 am

Post by Toranaga »

VOTE: northsidegal

not voting anything else today. I read another 10 posts from her ISO and none of them are towny, many are scummy. it's literally just blending in without a single post that indicates an actual attempt at solving the game. her progressions are non existant, her scum reads are empty, her town reads are blend, this isn't NSG's town game and IDC what your meta is. anyone can make 64 air balloons in posting form as scum, even the person who hates scum the most. IDK what the hell are you guys seeing here, I really don't.

sorry if wrong, don't think so.
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Post Post #1046 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:59 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 1037, Irrelephant11 wrote:lol not what I meant
I don't mean "he was really bad at playing scum" which is sorta true but you live and learn, whatever
I mean "the way he played scum was pretty textbook and I think his associations are going to be more helpful than the average flipped scum, so we don't need to get weird/paranoid with the lynch"
The most important part of volxen's ISO is that he had spent a lot of time reading mafia theory and guides on the wiki, so we can make some safe assumptions about his play style being based on the things mhsmith et all have written about scumming, associatives, etc., IMO.
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Post Post #1047 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:00 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 1039, Keyser Söze wrote:@Nauci - what does ‘scum The Worst’ look like in your own words?
Okay first of all I already wrote a book on this in american presidents. Second, I wrote a relatively detailed note on every instance I had a reaction to something TW post and why, so just go read those.
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Post Post #1048 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:02 am

Post by Ausuka »

I buy the case on nsg tbh. Nauci exactly how sure are you that this is nsg's towngame?
No matter what happens, I'll be right there with you.
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Nauci
Nauci
Mafia Scum
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Nauci
Mafia Scum
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Posts: 3631
Joined: October 10, 2017

Post Post #1049 (ISO) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:05 am

Post by Nauci »

In post 1042, Irrelephant11 wrote:volxen associations:
- RVS votes GNB[tw]
- He parrots NSG's (without mentioning nsg) "why say not to townread yourself?" case on GNB[tw]
- He shades Sesq[Nauci] for poorly scumcasing Keyser
- He continues to argue with GNB[tw] and answers Ausuka's question about GNB[tw]
- Asks 2.718[Huntress] if he's still scumreading Keyser
- Answers Toranaga's question about GNB[tw] ("I'm nullreading him")
- He townreads Keyser for weak reasons; nullreads nsg in few words; nullreads GNB[tw] in very many words; scumreads 2.718[Huntress] with his most in-depth thought processes yet. His reasons for the scumread are:
> Misrepping Keyser
> Siding with Reundo against Keyser
> Townreading Reundo with poor reasoning
-
Tries to direct attention off his slot by pointing at lurkers. Namely: 2.718[Huntress], Toranaga, and Sesq.
Notably, part of his scumread of Tor is that Tor thinks scum is in 2.718[Huntress]/volxen/sesq. I think this is somewhat clearing for Tor (in addition to the towncred he does actually deserve for the volxen lynch) because I don't think their scum play here was to name each other in their lynchbait lists.
- Reiterates his scumreads from his previous posts. Also says Reundo/Keyser is either t/t or s/t (Keyser being town either way)
- says hi to the worst (not really indicative, I'm just being thorough)
- He answers nsg's question about knowing the worst ("yes")
& - continues to talk about nsg, this time about his experience with mafia and mafiascum.
- Becomes the fourth vote on sesq
- Welcomes Huntress
- Helps sesq try to unvote
- Welcomes Eragon
- Claims watcher in response to me
- Tries to shift wagon movement back to sesq in response to me
- Shades Reundo for attacking Keyser one more time after his lynch is inevitable
Even as a spectator without the obvious bias of being in the slot, my reaction to these associatives that feels strong is that he didn't try to throw the heat off of himself and onto a teammate, so Toranga (and I) are clear. I don't see a world where inexperienced scum would do that, tbh.
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