NY 215: HMS Erebus - Game Over!

[davesaz]

Eenie meenie minie, seems to forgot the toe.
VOTE: tictac

[davesaz]

I always vote him eventually so I may as well do it now.

sadly, too true

[davesaz]

By the way, can you respond to my questions Io? So far, few people have given genuine responses, I need for people to answer in order for the RQS to have been worthwhile.

What AI information do you expect to get out of the answers?

[davesaz]

@garmr is one newbie adequate for meta?

[davesaz]

Oh.

VOTE: Umulat

This is a good place to start. Your intro post reminds me how you started our last micro.

Yeah I'm gonna trust my gut
still voting tictac for now though

What’s your tictac read based on? It looked to me like you did a me too to a post that didn’t have a good reason.

[davesaz]

i am very down for a policy lynch on this guy im not reading those posts

Kinda think it’s too early to play the policy card. Do you have anything more substantial to offer?

[davesaz]

Catching up. Maybe it will take my focus off of hating apple products so fucking much rn

Is it pc to hate apple?
Pun intended

[davesaz]

this'll be a fun game to carry

Are you going to dismount your high horse and play soon?

[davesaz]

What do you think about Lapsa's apparent need to sheep?

[davesaz]

Neither of 114 and 119 are by Lapsa.

[davesaz]

112 is a really weak excuse for not having an independent position. That deserves a push.
VOTE: Lapsa

[davesaz]

Though I could have worded that better to make that clear.
I was just answering CT’s question.

Got it, thanks. The juxtaposition made me think both points were about Lapsa but it's now clear they were separate.

[davesaz]

Phone.
Gamma.. ya actually need something from me or just playing dumb for lols?
Agree that mala is kitteh and io cruel for vote. Maybe ill look at reasonin when at home tho. Also probs with not doing ct today tho comment about readin mala iso pinged hard. Actually dont mind tje style.
I liked lapsa delay in voting me. Like he considered it for some time without doig first. Shows thoufht.

I'm not gamma, but yes I need something from you, preferably something AI.

[davesaz]

I liked lapsa delay in voting me. Like he considered it for some time without doig first. Shows thoufht.

"Like" like makes them more likely town or just like in terms of thinking being something you like to see in people?

more likely to be town

Let me see if I have this right.
Waiting a post or two to RVS vote you makes a difference on whether someone's town? And it's evidence of "thought" when it's post 25?

[davesaz]

Fairly certain we have played together, but have no idea what game without dipping into history.
I keep thinking I'm going to start gathering dossiers on people, but then realize how much work that is and never bother.

[davesaz]

@MOD: Umlaut also requested replacement, see 118

[davesaz]

ok but i dont think dave is scumhunting either

I have asserted that Lapsa is looking for excuses to sheep, and doing nothing proactive. My vote is there.
What is your opinion on this? In both senses of that question.

[davesaz]

Why am I the highest poster right now? This never happens...

It's abnormal for me to be in the top half. Dunno why, but not having enough to read and respond to messes me up a bit.

Pedit: Scioness, did you come up with that on your own? Care to say a few words about it, more than just a vote?

[davesaz]

for alienating himself from players and take a coasting stance by asking everyone questions and never taking a stance on their own

This might be a reasonable position but it merits discussion.
Do you think alienating himself is something likely to come from scum?
Is not having taken a stance by page 9 reflective more of alignment, or proficiency?

[davesaz]

I'm looking for a thought process ( <-- see avatar). Is Saudade processing the thread, or merely reacting to it?

I think it's very unlikely that scum would want to alienate themselves. Being unpopular certainly doesn't make someone scum. That's a horrible reason to have a scumread.
I think that there are many scumhunting styles and just because someone's style doesn't match your own, or your opinion of what style is good, doesn't mean they're scum. What matters is the motivation, not the style.

[davesaz]

No need to reread, unless you're thinking of something that's not the obvious. Feel free to quote something if you suspect we're thinking about different posts.
What would be the scum motivation for the things you see?

Pedit: Never mind, you answered. Here's a hint -- I consider

lack

of questions a scumtell because it reflects either a) foreknowledge of the answers, or b) a desire to make a push without having to worry about how inconvenient the answers might be.

[davesaz]

I'll pick one to refute.
207 is making a very clear point. Lapsa is scum. Why don't you see that? An answer would be appreciated.

[davesaz]

Really? I personally feel like asking questions is a scum tell.
The way I look at is that as a townie you shouldn't be the one going around asking everyone if they want to push a player.
You should be the one taking initiave and pushing the player yourself. There is no point in asking "What do you think about Lapsa's apparent need to sheep?" when you can just make a case yourself and point out all the posts he made trying to sheep.

If I push other people to follow and they merely sheep me, we're betting the alignment of a player on my read being correct. And I get nothing to base my read on the sheep.
If I ask them to contribute their thoughts on the matter, I get information to read them, and the group read is more likely to be correct than an individual read.

Asking other people to push reads and make cases for you

I don't personally think of "what do you think" posts this way but I can see how others might.
It's about freaking time someone gives an actual opinion like this, instead of the eternal "that was bad, vote" response.
PSA: If I ask a question like that, I already believe it and am searching for agreement on the issue, without trying to browbeat people into it. I'm not RC by a long shot.

[davesaz]

BTW Io -- it would really help if you'd weigh in on the Lapsa read instead of questioning the method I'm taking to pursue it.

[davesaz]

What's your read on CT davesaz

Give me your Lapsa read first.

Spoiler: answer

I see a scumtell from CT. It's different (I think) from what other people have on him. If I say what it is RN it will be possible for scum!CT to adjust.

[davesaz]

Wish Gamma would post some more he's the easiest person to townread ever

I find Gamma one of the hardest to townread. Mostly because I can't distinguish stupid bad pushes from scummy bad.

[davesaz]

idk i think youre wrong but i also think you're town for making that vote.

Does that mean you actually townread Lapsa? If so, why?

[davesaz]

Pedit: Never mind, you answered. Here's a hint -- I consider lack of questions a scumtell because it reflects either a) foreknowledge of the answers, or b) a desire to make a push without having to worry about how inconvenient the answers might be.

idk how to tell you how irrelevant this is

Is that a comment on my opinion, or on me giving my opinion? There is a distinction and it does matter.

Spoiler: stuff

If you cared enough to open the spoiler, good for you.

If you think the position that questions are scumtells is irrelevant, that's NAI because it's just a disagreement.
If you think me giving my opinion is irrelevant, then I'm inclined to scum read that. Town (should) always want to know how other town think -- recognizing each other is at least as important as finding scum.

[davesaz]

let's just get rid of that bad apple

VOTE: Completly Trustworthy

choo choo policy lunch time!

very good vote

You're in favor of policy lynches, over trying to find scum? I disagree.

VOTE: Malakittens

very bad vote without explanation zzz

Lapsa shouldn't be townread
nor scumread
fucking null

Nah, the two posts you quoted don't offset. They reinforce each other, and it's scum.
But I'm getting town vibes from this anyway.

[davesaz]

[davesaz]

you say this while you vote Lapsa. lmoa

Lapsa isn't policy.

[davesaz]

Examining recent posts, I found something that caused me to become confused. Dave what or who are you getting town vibes from in 274? Are you talking about Saudade, Lapsa, or something else?

Saudade. I don't agree with the results Saudade gets in the posts I quoted, but I think the motivation looks townish.

[davesaz]

I agree that 316 is bad but I'm not seeing it as likely to be scum motivated.

[davesaz]

Let's just say that pre-flip associations and information lynches aren't the best place to start.

[davesaz]

+2 {Purr}

where did this 1 come from

My question too. I'd vote for you if I didn't already have my vote on scum. You've done nothing pro-town yet.

[davesaz]

Plus you're like the only person not doing anything scummy at all.
Therefore you're the only really townie person.

You can be a vig target. At least half the things you're calling scummy aren't, and you're townreading someone for doing absolutely nothing.

Pedit: Lapsa

[davesaz]

Lapsa isn't scum lol

Not town == scum.
Show me town in Lapsa and I'll consider going somewhere else.

[davesaz]

I think these are basically facts, no one will disagree that Lapsa is being wishy-washy, the question is, is that scummy? I don't think this is enough of a reason to lynch him right now.

Not solving -> scum. It's really an easy thing, don't see why we don't just lynch it.

[davesaz]

for sweet sweet tictac towncred

What does this mean?

[davesaz]

I'm not done with Lapsa, but we have a new winner for scummiest sheep.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

[davesaz]

192 is a perfect example of what makes it hard for me to read Gamma.

[davesaz]

2nd off all, lapsa is not scum
atall

Is there any reasoning behind this you'd like to share with us?

[davesaz]

I'm not done with Lapsa, but we have a new winner for scummiest sheep.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

Why's this one the scummiest?

Is this a serious question?

[davesaz]

512 is incorrect but good. I can give Akarin a mild town read off that.

Sheeping is not thie issue. Doing nothing to advance the game is the issue. The post I happened to be responding to was sheeping, so I referred to it. You got me for making a lazy post that ddidn't explain every reason for my vote. Good job.

The reason you thought my other posts were advancing the game was because they are advancing it. Feel free to ask any questions you might have about where I am on people.

[davesaz]

Gonna be honest here. Consistent one-liners are borderline shoot on sight for me because they give me very little traction to actually read from. Creature for example is someone I will never get used to. You say it gives scum less to hide the bullstuff in, but I disagree -- IMO it gives scum perfect cover because with one-liners they can get away with literally posting nothing at all, while still being townread for posting nothing.

[davesaz]

Remind me who your lynch pool is, and I'll help you figure out what's wrong.

[davesaz]

On meta dive (what little there is), popo is showing something slightly different than the scum game, but there aren't any completed town games to compare by. And of course there isn't much in this game to compare by either.

[davesaz]

1. Completly Trustworthy -- seems to have a lot of appeasement
2. Hugo Stiglitz -- insufficient data
3. Saudade -- town
4. popopopopopopo -- weak scum, doesn't match scum meta very closely but no town game to compare to
5. Garmr -- insufficient data
6. Nosferatu -- town
7. Purrcocet -- weak town
8. Akarin -- weak town
9. Scioness Sajj -- should be enough posting but don't remember, which is a red flag. needs review
10. Lapsa -- has actually done something since I voted, but needs review.
11. GammaEmerald -- hard for me to read, weak town, if I get time I really should do more to learn how to read him.
12. tictac -- insufficient data? don't remember
13. Io -- weak town, seemed to be trying to solve but conclusions raised my eyebrows a bit, needs review
14. Malakittens -- did something scummy but hard to find a motivation for doing it.
15. davesaz -- role pm says I'm town

UNVOTE:
To do: Reread Scioness, Lapsa, tictac. Look more closely at timing of CT. Meta CT if possible.

[davesaz]

Helps me remember what I've done. At 56 it isn't a given... Tells other people what the results are. I'd expect most people to be able to guess these things.

[davesaz]

@dave: what did I do that was scummy? First time this whole game I really feel like you mentioned me

The reasoning behind the Umlaut vote seemed sketchy. I thought it was odd where you were questioning Gamma on why he appeared to sheep it, but then being absent from the discussion when others questioned the same thing. Though I didn't really notice either you or Gamma's vote as weird in the moment other than to think you both were overlooking how Umlaut's vote was clearly a RVS joke based on how much I get wagoned/mislynched.

What do you think of how others have interpreted your unvote? I don't remember who it was you unvoted offhand and going to go eat dinner, but I want to post this so don't want to take the time to dig it up, but anyway surely you'll know which one I'm referring to.

[davesaz]

I liked lapsa delay in voting me. Like he considered it for some time without doig first. Shows thoufht.

"Like" like makes them more likely town or just like in terms of thinking being something you like to see in people?

great entrance

Quoting things without commenting on them isn't very productive.
Gotta go eat but couldn't resist.

[davesaz]

Gotta admit I'm rather disappointed that there is nothing new to reply to after dinner.
Meatloaf was good.

[davesaz]

ok so why does everyone think mala is scum?? about to do an iso on them now but 271 gives me town vibes

Can you expand on this a bit please?

[davesaz]

Got a chance to do a couple rereads

tictac -- weak town, mostly tone and a little bit of solving behavior.
Scioness Sajj -- weak scum, seems a little me-tooish and shallow

[davesaz]

@Dave would still like ya to comment more on 192

I said that one was an example of why I have trouble reading Gamma, right? Sure I can go quote it and point to stuff now. I don't like unpacking weirdness too early because it impedes other discussion that might occur about the point -- that ship has obviously sailed by now.

Buut, this read used to be "gut", and I really don't see what changed to give it reasoning.

It's a gut feeling
but there's a reason why I have that gut feeling
hopefully that makes sense

My gut reads are not at all like that. Comments on this from others please?

No responses to this is kinda disapponting.

Disclaimer: this reply does not speak to Gamma's post or alignment. If you'd like 469 analyzed independently and not a response to your post, feel free to correct me.

[not theory but kinda in that same ballpark]
If you're trying to assert that a read has to either be gut or with reasons but can't be both you're wrong. I often say "gut with reasons". I have several purposes in doing it that way, several examples are -- to give higher strength to a read than "only gut" which I believe is a very weak reason for a read; to avoid referring to things that should not be referred to yet, like unrevealed results; to talk about forbidden topics like ongoing games or unrevealed alts; to get conversation about the statement to get better reads on others.
[/not theory]

[davesaz]

An explanation of why I suspect Umlaut (now Saudade):
So my first game with Umlaut I recall someone making a similar RVS vote. I don't recall the alignment of that person (my first thought is that they were probably town) but I do recall someone somewhere saying that sort of reasoning for an RVS vote is scummy.
I'm explaining this not so much to convince anyone as of yet, but more to open the discussion to where if I'm wrong, people can refute me.

Painfully awkward. So awkward that I think it's likely to be genuinely so, and not an act. He sees something that he vaguely remembers having been called scummy in another context, but can't remember the context or probably the explanation of why. And he's aware that it could either be important or silly, and if it's silly it will make him look bad as a person and in the game. So he approaches it very cautiously by indirectly asking if it's a load of bull or the real deal. Being uncertain on the validity of the "tell" isn't AI though, people are uncertain about all kinds of things. And being worried about being uncertain isn't AI either.

I may have mentioned this already, but outside of the awkwardness, it's rather funny that anyone read anything into Umlaut's vote because it was clearly a RVS joke about how Umlaut (and almost everyone else) ends up voting mislynchbait me at some point.

Looking at some possible motivation of the post from both alignments:

town!Gamma makes this post because if he's remembering things right it shows that someone else (Mala I think) may also be town and he's onto Umlaut as possible scum, where if a bunch of people say it's meaningless then perhaps (Mala?) is scum.

scum!Gamma makes this post to plant seeds for an Umlaut mislynch while trying to avoid responsibility or make a commitment until he knows whether it flies or not. It is site meta to automatically and vehemently scumread people for this potential motivation, but I'm not named "site meta".

How does scum!Gamma make this type of post knowing the type of backlash it generates? OTOH ditto for town!Gamma. It probably isn't well though out, probably written in a hurry and submitted without a re-read and edit. Hence it's probably a quick reply to something -- reviewing it in isolation is inadequate, and I having taken time to actually process it I probably would not base a push or read (either way) on this post alone.

The people who insist that any waffling post is fence sitting and scummy are now prompted to rip me up for posting my thoughts.

[davesaz]

Define excuse?

Reading back from that point I think it’s genuine and town. Is there a different reason to suspect gamma?
Hitting the shower y’all can discuss while I’m gone.

[davesaz]

@dave afaik you are leaning town!Gamma

fine, whatever

yet you shouldn't be basing such lean on:
- scum!Gamma would know his post would cause backlash
- town!Gamma wrote his post in a hurry

which is why I'm calling it an excuse

Actually for those two specific things you're calling out, I said I can't judge the slot on that specific post anyway.
And technically what I said in the next post was that the things Gamma did immediately before 192 made 192 lean a little town. Or at least that's what I meant by it.
Tictac's other reason, whatever it is, might be adequate to tip the lean the other way. Leaning is very accurate as a modifier.

[davesaz]

I might be wrong on Nosferatu. People who scumread me for bad reasons turned up scum in 4/4 of the most recent games I was in, on this and an alt. Gambler's fallacy applies though so Nos might just be the odd one out who is simply bad.

[davesaz]

Remind me, not sure you’ve given a coherent one.

[davesaz]

By definition all reasons are bad given I'm town.

TBH I don't even know if you've given a reason. I'm going to work. You can do us all a favor by enlightening me and the thread, or you can be an ass and make me look it up when I'm not working.
Guess which one I'm betting on.

[davesaz]

I might be wrong on Nosferatu. People who scumread me for bad reasons turned up scum in 4/4 of the most recent games I was in, on this and an alt. Gambler's fallacy applies though so Nos might just be the odd one out who is simply bad.

..what were you townreading him for to begin with?

I dislike his posting style and disagree with some of his conclusions but on balance it looks like he's doing things to gamesolve. It isn't a specifics kind of thing where I can make post by post comments, it's more a running balance tone/gut thing.

[davesaz]

By definition all reasons are bad given I'm town.

TBH I don't even know if you've given a reason. I'm going to work. You can do us all a favor by enlightening me and the thread, or you can be an ass and make me look it up when I'm not working.
Guess which one I'm betting on.

But this is the basis for a scumread on Nos?

Did I express a scumread?

I might be wrong

on Nosferatu. People who scumread me for bad reasons turned up scum in 4/4 of the most recent games I was in, on this and an alt. Gambler's fallacy applies though so Nos might just be the odd one out who is simply bad.

No, I expressed conditional doubt on a townread.
I wonder how much else you're misreading?

[davesaz]

Yeah but is it real?

[davesaz]

Actually point out what you think is overly emotional there.

[davesaz]

Dramatic perhaps? And not always in tune with what is going on.

[davesaz]

Yeah I don't like the waffling and fencesitting in post 601, good catch Dave.

tbf I asked him to expand on a post he was nullreading, so not suprising he nullreads it.

I found it a little scummy that Akarin responded to 601 but not the other posts I made shortly after. Not scummy enough to nullify the townread.

[davesaz]

Nosferatu is playing a minigame I would summarize as "poke people and see who goes apeshit".
That's part of the reason for tonereading it as town.

[davesaz]

I get that CT is your top scumread -- is he your only one?
Yes, yes, I could look. But it's another work day.
I see enough scum there to make it worth a *wagon*. We haven't had a real *wagon* yet.

VOTE: Completely Trustworthy

Spoiler: *

Playing DF lately

[davesaz]

I'll save some time and take that one.
If the game is in progress you can't talk about it, no matter what the status of the players.

[davesaz]

Look, there is a very specific reason I don't want CT lynched today.
Yes, he is scummy, but he is far from the optimal lynch.

Is this a change of opinion from 650?

[davesaz]

I think CT is changing stances under pressure. Thoughts on that?

[davesaz]

I think CT is changing stances under pressure. Thoughts on that?

Elabore if you could.

I can and will probably do so after work, but it's actually pretty obvious. Just look through CT's posting -- when you see a difference in opinion on a point between two of his posts look at the stuff in between and you'll see someone criticizing the first opinion. I've noticed it 2-3 times at least. And his new opinion tends to match the person who was critical.

[davesaz]

One of the instances happened right before I made a comment where I saw a scumtell btw.

[davesaz]

245 and the reference is inside a spoiler. I'll leave that pointer for folks to ponder -- really must go to this meeting given I'm the leader.

@Lapsa I think we're getting along now?

[davesaz]

I pedit almost every non-trivial post to check for tags etc, and frequently revise. Doesn't make me scum.
That said, I was in a game recently where scum got nailed by prepping a bunch of posts in PT, copy/paste to main thread, but forgot to leave time between the posts so it was obvious they were paste jobs.

[davesaz]

The sarcasm runs strong in this thread.
Don't know why we're avoiding having any serious wagons. Less than 6 days left to get some votes in motion for analysis later.

VOTE: Performer

[davesaz]

I’ve been pretty transparent about targeting people who had not made pro town contributions. Ct while having had lots of content has been overwhelmingly appeasy which is a big newb scumtell. I’m just about the only person who seems to care about driving day to some kind of result. But I’m used to being misunderstood so whatever.

[davesaz]

If you're going to insist on me you'll need some time to change wagons after L1.

[davesaz]

The automated vote counter says it's L-2.
So many town get crucified for early claims.
So many idiots make town claim when they shouldn't have to.
If scum decide to kill me I'll try to take one with me. But some of the awful town are going to need to do better or they'll end up being mis-identified as scum.

[davesaz]

Pool, subject to change

Completly Trustworthy
Hugo Stiglitz
popopopopopopo
Garmr
Purrcocet
Performer

[davesaz]

Garmr sheeped onto a wagon where none of the votes were well founded. It’s opportunistic.

[davesaz]

Vig

[davesaz]

512 is incorrect but good. I can give Akarin a mild town read off that.

Sheeping is not thie issue. Doing nothing to advance the game is the issue. The post I happened to be responding to was sheeping, so I referred to it. You got me for making a lazy post that ddidn't explain every reason for my vote. Good job.

The reason you thought my other posts were advancing the game was because they are advancing it. Feel free to ask any questions you might have about where I am on people.

[davesaz]

This is not a picture of someone dismissing a post.

[davesaz]

Because it is unfounded. Incorrect. Wrong.

[davesaz]

There is a modifier. I'm not going to say what it is for obvious reasons, but a CC is possible.

[davesaz]

Let's lynch someone who actually isn't trying to solve the game.
Even considering voting for someone who is actually trying to solve is beyond stupidity and the reason town loses so many games, but my one man crusade to fix site meta has been falling on deaf ears for a couple years.

[davesaz]

Don't get ahead of yourself with assumptions. Knowing what I am scum could just as easily RB me if they have one, to get a mislynch from lack of an extra kill.
Assumptions piss me off almost as much as stringing people up for being inquisitive.

[davesaz]

Don't know why we're avoiding having any serious wagons. Less than 6 days left to get some votes in motion for analysis later.

Explain why scum!me doesn't just let town circle jerk themselves into a no-lynch? At this point there were something like 4 wagons with 2 votes if memory serves. Unless that state was a little earlier...

Pedit:
Gamma I don't give a shit what your definition is. Keep it up and you're my leading candidate for the extra bullet. This kind of bullshit has no place in mafia and it's another reason that towns lose.

[davesaz]

I should make it clear that my previous was in no way intended to be personal.
I've just seen too many games slip away because people were so intent on the warts on the frog on a leaf on the tree that they failed to notice the forest was rotting.

[davesaz]

Now again can we move on to lynching someone who isn't trying to solve the game? I think we have a much better chance following that path.
You will carefully note that I've avoided going for those who aren't posting at all. My focus is on players who are here and posting but managing to say things while doing nothing positive.

[davesaz]

BTW someone asked me a question much earlier about CT being appeasy. One such example follows.
I had seen this post which was a reply to CT.

I don't like your latest post dave. Given that one of Saudade's stated reasons for voting me was because I alienated myself from other players, it seems obvious he thinks I'm scummy because of that. Also, the other question is one that depends on someone's opinion and that varies with no correct answer, I don't understand how that adds to the game or could change your opinion of a player.

I don't see how asking for clarity is a problem, but you did bring up something i don't think you intended too but I think it pretty important of a point.
He's asking a lot of questions that really have no meaning or impact. As in he's asking questions for the sake of asking questions and not really getting anything from them. That's one of the reasons I found your post 36 a bit scummy.
I just went back through his ISO and noticed close to 75% of his posts are just asking questions.
Some are fine like his 3rd post, but a lot of the questions are just asking people to play more (posts 55-57 for example), and he also asks others for their opinions without really providing much himself (207, 222, and 111).

CT changes his approach to match what Io had just explained as being "how town should be".

As I said earlier, I decided that Lapsa was probably scum and Popo town. I believe this because most scum will not make 98 since it limits their options by making any push on someone other than me in the future suspicious. It would be very odd for someone who really wants me policy lynched to vote another person and they would probably get lynched for not providing content in the late game. However, Lapsa has mostly been wishy-washy in their voting and
have changed their opinions with little reasoning involved. For instance, they seemed to suspect tictac or at the very least didn't like something he said in 53, then suddenly wanted me policy lynched in 73, only to later sheep someone else in 109. They've also made some shitposts like 162 and 181. Overall, they have only shaded people and voted for weak reasons.
VOTE: Lapsa
In addition, I am currently townreading Gamma Emerald because the progression from 77 to 189 seemed natural. Umlaut didn't seem more vulnerable to a lynch than Tictac, so I believe that GE is a town player really trying to sort others.

I see this, and other tonal changes, as adjustments to try to get off the radar.

[davesaz]

If I push other people to follow and they merely sheep me, we're betting the alignment of a player on my read being correct. And I get nothing to base my read on the sheep.
If I ask them to contribute their thoughts on the matter, I get information to read them, and the group read is more likely to be correct than an individual read.

This post is motivated by my role.
I'm not the type of vig who is willing to be leashed, but I sure as hell want consensus on scumreads reads from my townreads.

[davesaz]

Plus you're like the only person not doing anything scummy at all.
Therefore you're the only really townie person.

You can be a vig target. At least half the things you're calling scummy aren't, and you're townreading someone for doing absolutely nothing.

Pedit: Lapsa

This is a crumb in the form of trying to scold someone for being really shallow. I don't have Io as a scumread anymore btw...

[davesaz]

@Gamma:
1. no leash accepted. I don't expect a vote on who to kill and won't follow one.
2. Advice accepted, from my town reads only. I'd prioritize a shot they agree on. Though the day flip might flip the table in which case all bets are off.

[davesaz]

funny how all the people that voted dave are not surprised in the slightest that he's not scum/PR claim

Don't know if this observation is very relevant, how many have posted since?
If I've lost count and there are several who have posted, what do you make of it?

[davesaz]

Re: 998 I'm rarely comfortable directing traffic this early in a game due to the risk of inadvertently revealing more roles, but yeah having one PR outed does give others an opportunity to leverage it.

[davesaz]

@CT to be honest I'd need to do a mountain of work to illustrate what I'm seeing. It's more like I have a mental count of things and you've tipped it.
In a nutshell, you do something, someone calls you on it, you change to match whatever the person who complained wants. Then someone calls you on that so you change to match the new accuser.
I'm not even sure it's scum. It is one thing that some scum do, to try to get by. It's also human nature to some extent. As others have pointed out, sometimes I ping on style.

As of 527 my main reason for scumreading Lapsa had disappeared because he had started doing things to sort.
I'm blatantly prioritizing "not sorting" as a scumtell this game, until something better comes along.
It should not come as a surprise that it's next to impossible to tell a nefarious bad push to get someone mislynched from an honestly believed but totally wrong push from town without some flips.

Gamma, can you please give reasons? I really do need to know more about the why, for obvious reasons.

[davesaz]

Being town enough to avoid lynch while scummy enough to not be NK'd is a very fine line.
The people who try to walk it are usually PR.

[davesaz]

I used to try to hint that I didn't mind being scumread, and all that came of that was the scum knew I was a PR while town had their heads stuck where the sun don't shine.

[davesaz]

If you're questioning whether I see CT doing things (which I call "appeasing people"), that's not acceptable to me.
If I say I see something, I see it. Seeing it is a verifiable fact. I've already shown something that I see.

If you're questioning whether what I see is CT appeasing people, that's quite alright. I can be wrong in the way I'm interpreting it. You can interpret it differently.
I observe that CT is continually changing what he says and more importantly how he says it, and I think that his later posting conforms to what his detractors want to see. YMMV

[davesaz]

Purrcoset, I'm going to need some concrete reads and reasons for those reads to entertain taking you off the list.

[davesaz]

Re: my wagon a the point Performer shows, I have that as town, scumlean, scumlean, town, townlean, scum

[davesaz]

"I don't like how sci kinda side-pushes mala and was absent during the recent CT drama. Kinda thinking those are both mislynches rn."

Who is sci?

[davesaz]

Umm, hate to break it to you but I don't see "sci" and automatically know what it means. If I were to abbreviate that player it would probably be Scion at which case just finishing out the ness is gonna happen anyway. That's a really f*ed up thing to doubt someone about if you ask me. It was a straighforward "wtf is this" question, reading more into it is just stupid.

[davesaz]

From the vote counter (not verified for accuracy). Both are L-3

Performer(5)

~ tictac(38), Purrcocet(55), davesaz(106), Malakittens(56), Nosferatu(121)

Malakittens(5)

~ Completly Trustworthy(69), Lapsa(87), Io(114), Garmr(65), Performer(74)

Purrcocet(1)

~ Hugo Stiglitz(22)

davesaz(1)

~ Akarin(34)

Completly Trustworthy(1)

~ Saudade(125)

Akarin(1)

~ Gamma Emerald(166)


Not Voting (1): popopopopopopo(30)

[davesaz]

Hmm, wonder if you know what the vc is.

[davesaz]

Ank is prob town don’t lynch them.

Typo? or is someone an ank alt?

[davesaz]

slightly edited

My bet is on Lapsa for even-night vig, based on reaction to my claim. Would need to review the thread to see if that matches with one of the dead as a scumread.
I had a feeling that if any town read was wrong it was Saudade, but can't claim any credit because I don't know if that was a strong enough feeling that I'd go for it.

CT and Pur goons, Garmr VT fills out my read.
Saudade's approach to CT feels a lot like how RC power busses, going all in on a partner for cred if they flip.

It was a knife edge decision N1 to vig popo or Purrcocet. Too bad I got that one wrong, impact would have been huge.